October 3, 2024 • 64 mins
In Part 2 of the debut episode of "Designated," host Yaya Jata Fanusie continues his examination of Tigran Gambaryan, a former IRS special agent and financial crime fighter unjustly imprisoned in Nigeria for over seven months. Tigran was known for his groundbreaking work in combating cybercrime and cryptocurrency fraud. His expertise led him to Binance, where he was pivotal in enhancing compliance measures. Tigran was unjustly detained after a meeting in Nigeria regarding Binance's operations, and has remained there for over 200 days. Yaya speaks with former IRS Chief of Investigations, Richard Weber who served as Chief while Tigran was a Special Agent, Tigran’s former fellow Agent and friend, Matthew Price and Chief Compliance Officer at Binance, Noah Perlman. Join us as we uncover the truth behind this troubling case and rally for justice.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:40):
T Grin was seriously one of the best special agents
that we had at IRLCI. T Grin is a hostage.
He did nothing wrong. He is sitting in a prison
for a crime that he did not commit. The US
(01:01):
government needs to step up and step up now.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I'm Yaya Jatafinusi and this is designated from the Illicit
Edge Network. This is part two of our look into
the cause of Tigrin Gambarian, the former IRS criminal investigator
who has been detained in Nigeria for over seven months now.
He served as country as one of the best investigators
of illicit finance involving cryptocurrencies when bitcoin was first emerging
(01:36):
as a tool for cyber criminals. He was so good
at his job that the world's largest crypto exchange, Finance
recruited him to help the company clean up its act
after years of allowing illicit activity on its platform. His
detention on trumped up charges in February shocked many of
us in the world of anti money laundering compliance, because
if it could happen to Tigrin, who was just doing
(01:58):
his job, it could happen any of us. In Part one,
we spoke to his wife, Yuki, Congressman Rich McCormick, and
Wired senior writer Andy Greenberg. In this episode, you'll hear
from some of those who've worked with him, side by side,
friends and colleagues who are devastated by his situation and
are trying to bring him home. We'll start with Richard Weber,
(02:21):
who was the former chief of the Internal Revenue Service's
Criminal Investigations Division, better known as IRSCI. He supervised thousands
of financial crime investigators around the country, including Tigrin Gambarian,
one of his finest agents. He explains what many people
don't know about IRSCI and tells how Tigrin so positively
(02:43):
impacted the organization, so time to get designated and hear
the behind the scenes story so we can figure out
what needs to happen to bring tigrin home. What is
IRSCI and how does it fit in the world of
fighting financial crime?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So irs CI is an amazing law enforcement organization. The
agency has been around for one hundred and five years.
It is the only law enforcement agency that has the
authority to work tax crime cases. But the agency has
(03:23):
historically been able to investigate some of the most important
and complex financial crime cases that's out there. It has
an incredibly long and storied history and some of the
best financial investigative agents in the world.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And so I'm assuming most people may be unaware of
the i r S having a criminal investigations unit or division.
What would most pop people be surprised about when it
comes to i RSci.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, I think I think there are a lot of
things that people would be surprised about. First of all,
it is true that many folks in the public don't
realize that the Treasury Department has a law enforcement agency.
Within i r S, about four thousand employees, twenty five
hundred special agents that are in twenty five field offices,
(04:28):
across the country. They have foreign attache posts in about
twelve countries, and it's an agency that really focuses on
the complex financial crimes cases. What I think the public
(04:48):
also wouldn't understand is some of the historic cases that
have been around for so many years. When people think
about IRS, sometimes they do think about the al Capone
case as the only law enforcement agency that was able
to get a compone when no other law enforcement agency
(05:09):
was able to do so. We were also involved many
many years ago in the Charles Lindbergh baby kidnapping case,
and most people aren't aware of that. It was actually
the I R s c I Chief and a few
agents that came up with the idea of marking the
(05:30):
treasury bills and recording them, and that was ultimately the
way that law enforcement was able to catch the defendant
and prosecute him. And it's something that that I don't
think most people realize. Well. Also, back during the Iraq War,
(05:54):
I R c I sent about ten agents into that
war zone to focus on asset seizures, and we were
able to work with other law enforcement agencies but really
spearhead that effort to capture and to bring back tens
(06:16):
of millions of dollars, actually I think it was in
the billion dollar range. And also give back to the
to the Iraqi people. So so there was a lot
of effort done behind the scenes in a lot of
our cases that the public doesn't realize kind of the
significance of the agency.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
And so what was your role at I R s C.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I So I grew up as a as a prosecutor.
I served as a prosecutor at the US Attorney's Office
in the Eastern District for over ten years. I was
chief of the money Laundering Section in Washington for about
five years, went to the Manhattan DA's office, and then
I got a call about the position of chief of
(07:01):
I R SCI, which quite frankly was a dream job
for me to lead the best financial investigative agency in
the world. And being a prosecutor and working with those agents,
I had a real deep respect for the agents and
(07:21):
the work that they were doing in every field office
across the country. So when I got the call and
the opportunity to put my hat in the ring, I
jumped at it and ultimately was successful in getting the position.
Moving back down to Washington and for five and a
half years had the real sincere honor and privilege to
(07:44):
be chief and to be leader and be responsible for
such a great organization with so many dedicated special agents
and employees.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Richard, how did you get to know Tigrin so?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
T Grin was seriously one of the best special agents
that we had at IRSCI when I was chief. As
I mentioned, we had twenty five hundred or so special
agents across the country. I spent a lot of my
time traveling to every field office in every state, in
(08:22):
every location, and I met many agents. In the five
and a half years that I served as chief. I
knew a lot of agents. They often presented cases. I
had town halls at every field office three times a month.
But I didn't know the names of every agent, and
(08:42):
I didn't know every agent personally. And I knew t Grin,
and I knew him pretty early on in my career
because he was truly one of the best cyber and
crypto agents that we had in the entire agency. Prosecutors
sought him out for their cases. Supervisors loved assigning him work.
(09:04):
He was a dogged investigator who really knew crypto more
than anyone in the agency at that time. He knew
crypto when when you know, at a time when no
one knew what crypto even was, he was investigating cases,
he was teaching and training other agents, and he was
a real force in the agency when I was there
(09:28):
and after I left.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Can you share some of the cases that he worked on? Sure? So.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Tagan first of all, was assigned to a task force
that focused on national security terrorist financing issues. He was
also a founding member of the Digital Currency Digital Asset
task FORSE. Tigrian really believed in the concept of working
(09:56):
in a cooperative way with other agencies and other partners.
He was a type of agent that would roll up
his sleeves and do all the work that he needed
to do for that particular investigation. But he had no
problem working with other agents and other countries on their
on their cases and on their investigations. When he was
(10:20):
an agent focusing in the cyber and crypto area, he
was behind the scenes working the Silk Road case, which
was one of the biggest takedowns of a of a
dark net company doing incredibly bad things that were involved
(10:40):
in every single criminal enterprise that you can think of,
and Tigrin was behind the scenes working that case day
after day. Until that case was ultimately taken down. Tigrin
was also heavily involved in the Mount Docks case, which
devastated the the digital asset community in the crypto industry
(11:04):
at the time and involved a Russian enterprise that was
involved in so many different forms of criminal activity. And
and those two cases are just, you know, two of
the many that he worked, but it really showed his
his ability to work these incredibly complicated cases, cross jurisdictionally
(11:30):
with other agencies, multi national, international cases that that really
reached around the globe.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Is there one thing that you could point to that
he did that set him apart?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
So Tigrin honestly was one of the hardest working agents
that I've ever worked with. I think one of the
things that I would always remember about Tigrin's work was
just his unbelievable no knowledge of the area. It's it's
not often where you find an agent that has incredible
(12:07):
investigative skills but also substantive knowledge about the particular area
that they're investigating. And his deep, deep background and experience
in crypto and blockchain technology and his ability to really,
you know, go through some complicated and detailed fact patterns
(12:30):
is just something I think that really set him apart.
His drive, his tenacity, his dogged efforts to really track
down every piece and puzzle of the of the case.
Nothing was ever left behind, and he was incredibly sort
after by by other agencies and prosecutors.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
How did you learn about tigrants of rest and what
went through your mind when you found out about it?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
So I was actually contacted by an agent at irs
I still keep in touch with many current irs CI
special agents and retired special agents, and one of the
agents that works in the organization had contacted me to
tell me what was going on. I also have a
(13:22):
connection to Byance's current chief compliance officer, Noah Perlman, who
I worked with personally at the US Attorney's Office in
the Eastern District. He was a prosecutor with me, and
I've known Noah for probably about twenty years. Is by
far one of the best compliance professionals with the utmost
(13:47):
integrity in the industry. So I had also spoken to
to know about the situation and completely shocked that someone
like Tigrin could be arrested or even detained in Nigeria
or in any foreign country or anywhere in the world
(14:10):
for any potential criminal wrongdoing. I knew without even looking
at any of the facts which I which I looked
at very carefully after that, but I knew at that
very moment that Tigrin did absolutely nothing wrong and it
was the Nigerian government that was trying to get something
(14:31):
out of his detainment.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So how has the law enforcement community responded?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
So it's really interesting. The law enforcement community, in my view,
both as a former prosecutor and former chief of the agency,
has always been a really close knit, you know, family,
and especially within I R s C. I I was
always amazed how thousands of the employees could really get
(15:01):
behind the mission and really care about the work and
about each other. And I have been in contact with
probably hundreds of people. I've been posting on LinkedIn repeatedly
about what's going on with Ti Grin and had received
(15:21):
literally thousands and thousands of messages about this. Former prosecutors
and government officials signed a letter that went to the
State Department to Secretary Blincoln. I think that was signed
by over one hundred former prosecutors and agents. There are
(15:44):
so many people within this community that cares so much
about the issue and about bringing Tigrint home.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
What do you think the US government needs to do
more of in order to address tigrant situation.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
So tigrant, without a doubt, is being held captive in
a Nigerian prison. The prison that he is being held
at is a prison that also holds the worst of
the worst criminals in Nigeria. It's a prison that holds
(16:23):
really bad people, including terrorists. And here we have a
former law enforcement official, a dedicated public servant, who is
working at a crypto company as a mid level employee,
not a decision maker, not an executive, who is trying
(16:46):
to resolve a compliance issue, who then gets arrested and
thrown into the same facility. And the US government should
do everything in their power to get him out and
bring him home to his wife, Yuki, and his two
(17:07):
young children. They need to, and they have the authority
to do this under the Levenson Act. They need to
characterize him as a US citizen wrongfully detained. Tigrin is
a hostage. He did nothing wrong. He is sitting in
a prison for a crime that he did not commit.
(17:30):
He's been in prison for over two hundred days, almost
eight months, and no one knows what he really did wrong.
I don't even think the Nigerian government know what he
did wrong, yet they're holding him. So the government in
the US needs to put additional pressure on Nigeria and
(17:54):
ally right, they're an ally country and they need to
really focus on getting him back to his family. The
US sends to Nigeria one point two billion dollars approximately
a year in aid. There are a lot of things
that the US can do in terms of sanctions, in
(18:16):
terms of negotiations, in terms of diplomacy. It's my understanding
that this has been brought up to the State Department,
to the US Ambassador Secretary Blincoln has mentioned this. I'm
told during a visit to Nigeria. I'm also told that
the US government is saying that they have faith in
(18:40):
the Nigerian court system, and I have no idea how
they can make that statement and what faccial basis they
have in that when you have someone that absolutely did
not commit a crime being held without a hearing and
without a trial for eight months, without the ability to
(19:03):
really connect with his legal team, someone that is now
facing some serious medical issues and it's going on eight months.
So my view personally is the US government needs to
step up and step up now. Please everybody that is
(19:23):
going to listen to this and see this. Please, you know,
write to Congress, right to the State Department, right to
Secretary Lincoln and Ambassador Hill, the US ambassador, and really
really continue to talk about it, to focus on it,
and to send the message that we need to bring
Tacrid home.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
If you could speak to the Nigerian government, what message
would you send them?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I would ask the Nigerian government to do what is right,
what is legal, what is just, and release him. Deal
with Binance the company if you have issues with Binance,
but don't hold Tigrin hostage in your demands to get
money from the company.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
We hope that Tigrin will somehow maybe hear this interview
or see it. If you could say something to Tigrin,
what would you tell them?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So I hope that Tigrin is watching this from his
couch in his living room at home, surrounded by his
wife and children and friends, and not watching.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
This in.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Nigeria. To be honest with you, I want Tigrin to
understand how many people are focused on this, how many
people care about this, how many people are trying everything
that we can do to fight to get him home.
There are a lot of people that love Tigrin, a
(21:00):
lot of people that know that these are trumped up charges,
and we will do everything possible to bring him home.
We will not forget about Tigrin. I think about this
case and about Tigrin every single day, and I am
one of many people that are trying to fight to
get him home.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Richard, is there anything else you'd like to share for
the audience.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, So just a couple of things. So recently, I
was told by someone that that visited Tigrin not too
long ago in Nigeria, and Tigrin wanted to send me
a message that he very much appreciates everything that we
(21:45):
are doing for him, to raise awareness, to fight for him,
to keep the focus on him, and to not forget
that he is there, and he is so appreciative of
what we're doing doing and moved and grateful. That was
from Tigrin, and that message has only caused me to
(22:09):
want to fight more to bring him home and to
do everything that we can to convince the US government
to do more to fight to get Tigrin home. The
other thing that I was going to mention is not
long ago, I was speaking at a conference. It was
a conference hosted by the Coalition against Financial Crime, and
(22:32):
at the end of my talk and I talked a
lot about Tigrin and what was happening in his case,
they presented an award for Tigrin for being the crime fighter,
the financial crime Fighter of the Year. I am holding
(22:52):
that award. I look at that award every single day
in my office and I am looking forward to end
that award to Tigrin and thanking him on behalf of
the entire financial crime community, which is a significant community,
and really tell them how much we appreciate everything that
(23:13):
he has done the fight financial crime.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Another agent who worked under Richard Webber at IRSCI was
Matt Price. Matt worked cases with Tigrin Gambarian and they
became fast friends. They formed a bond that extended into
their departure from the public sector when both joined the
effort to help tackle compliance issues at Binance. Matt had
left the company by the time Tigrin was arrested in Nigeria.
(23:40):
He offered details into their time working together and he
was able to shed light on what sort of man
Tigrin is and how he influenced many other agents and investigators.
How did you first get to know Tigrin.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
So I met Tigrin when I returned to IRSCI. I
was assigned to the cybercrimes unit. In a while I've
been in the agency and he's actually the first agent
I met. Kind of hit it off with him right away.
He's a funny, kind of goofy guy, like I had
an instant connection, kind of you know, we were able
to tell each other jokes, make each other laugh, things
like that, and you know, as we got to be
(24:15):
friends working together on cases, traveling together, you know, lots
of good times, lots of adventures together.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And then how did you all collaborate on actual cases.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
The unit that we were in, the d C Cybercrimes Unit,
was a real tight knit group of special agents. We
kind of traveled extensively together on casework. We supported each
other's investigations. One of the first cases that I started
working with him on, I had just got in the unit.
He needed someone to go do a very sensitive interview
with someone in the crypto industry in New York.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
I just met this guy in the day before I
jump on a train.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
I don't know what to expect, and by the end
of the day we're hanging out like we were best friends.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
You know, it was a very tight kind of knit unit.
We all support each other.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
We worked together very extensively, and we helped each other
out a lot, but our cases globally.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So how did he impact you?
Speaker 4 (25:03):
I mean a couple of ways.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
There's the personal way, of course, you know, being a
good friend, just a guy that I you know, I
consider a good buddy of mine.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
I had a good time with, got to.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Have a lot of good, good adventures, you know, talk
about our families, personal lives, personal issues, things like that.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
In a professional manner.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I mean, he's he's known as the OG, the original
crypto investigator really in federal law enforcement. And you know,
I learned a lot of technical skills from him. I
learned a lot of kind of how to take this
what to me at the time was kind of new
nebulous technology, leverage it and be able to use it
investigatively and work some really great cases out of it. So,
(25:41):
you know, very much a personal and professional relationship.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
You mentioned you all had adventures together.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
What type of adventures I mean everything from you know,
travel mishaps, going to places in Europe or you know.
A great example I like to tell is I was
the lead investigator on the Bitcoin Fog investigation. I got
a very last minute tip that the administrator of bitcoin
Fog was coming to the US to LA. I lived
(26:09):
in the Washington, DC area, so I knew that would
mean an overnight, last second flight to LA and I
needed an agent to help. This was during COVID at
the time, a lot of a lot of field offices
weren't really well staffed. I said, let me call Tiger
and see what he's doing. Tigran at the times living
in Presno, California, which is like four or five hours
away from LA, and I think this is really digative
of the type of agent and in person Tigran is.
(26:33):
I didn't even finish telling him about the alert. He says, yeah,
I'll be there, and he's, you know, kind of my
guy on the ground. I know, I haven't been to
LA operationally before, only on vacation, so he's helping me
make contacts with the local I r S, local HSI,
local FBI agents and he stayed up with me all
night we waited for the Bitcoin Fog. Adnan Roman, startling
(26:54):
off to arrive from Moscow, shows up at like one
in the morning. He goes through customs and then Tiger
and I driving him from Lax Airport down to sant Ana,
California for his detention, and I'll never forget you know,
the Atomin was very hungry because he had been on
an overnight flight and the only thing opened was a
jack in the box and Tiger and myself and Roman
(27:15):
starling off sitting in the back of a government car
while he eats a meal from jacking the box before
he take him to jail. And that's just kind of
indicative of some of the crazy type adventures.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
But I think the more important part is really a
reflection on his personality.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
You know, like not everyone is willing to take that
call and say, I don't care what time it is,
I'm going to drive, you know, four or five hours
away from my family on a weekend and be there
to help my colleague out.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
So that's him as a person, as a colleague. What
about his skills as an agent? How did his work
as an agent impact the cases?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
I mean again, he's one of the first agents that
really figured out how to trace bitcoin in a manner
that could be used in a criminal investigation. He was
the case agent on the Sean Bridges and Carl Force
case so pro corruption and at the time there was
kind of a belief perhaps amongst the folks in that
(28:11):
case that were charged, that crypto wasn't necessarily traceable, it
hadn't really been done, and it certainly hadn't.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
Been really used in a prosecution yet.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
So he, you know, being a curious, trained forensic accountant,
was able to pick up patterns in the blockchain and
trace a lot of the transactions manually. So as that happened,
that being kind of the first case, it really set
the stage for a lot of the future investigations.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
You know, as commercial software came out, Tigeran was kind
of one of the first users of any of these tools.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
He influenced the design of some of them, helped train
really most of us in I R. SCI as well
as other agencies. And somehow, my manager, either by either
force a personality or just the fact that he's Tigeran
and everybody knows him, somehow was involved in almost every
investigation in some way or another, whether it's he got
(29:02):
a lead from someone in the industry, or through a
relationship he had with a foreign law enforcement authority, or
even he just happened to be messing around on the
internet or in a crypto for him and he found
something interesting. So he really kind of served as as
really the glue, the connected tissue between a lot of
the historic crypto cases and especially the ones that I
(29:24):
R SCI worked.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Matt, You and Tigrin both left government and would join Binance.
What was happening with Binance at the time, and what
was that transition like for Tigrin?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yeah, certainly, I mean again, you know, I don't think
it's a secret now after news, recent news articles and
of course the criminal case against cz In. The company,
you know, Bidance had some compliance challenges and at the
time in twenty twenty one, we're looking to bring in,
you know, experts with compliance backgrounds, investigation backgrounds, things of
that nature. So I both joined on the same day
(30:01):
in September of twenty twenty one. We were brought in
to build out an investigations team, higher staff, developed tools,
developed policies, and things of that nature to help Finance
do a better job of reducing risk, protecting their customer base, and.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Fulfilled compliance allegations.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
As far as transition for Tigeran, I mean it was
a somewhat of a natural fit. He had the very
strong crypto investigative background, and he really had that kind
of experience in the industry, and you know, I think
we both jumped in and kind of hit the ground running.
I mean the first week, certainly, going from a law
enforcement world to a private sector job with no transition,
(30:44):
I think for both of us was quite a shock,
but also, you know, a good opportunity to kind of
leverage our skills and you know, build things from the
ground up.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
So, Matt, how did you learn about t Grin's arrest?
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Yeah, so I knew he was going to Nigeria.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Kind of a running joke we always had with he
and my colleagues and finances, That's the one place I'd
never go, and just given some of my experience as
a special agent and working investigations, you know, involving Nigerian
Nigerian subjects or corruption.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
So there was kind of a source of lighthearted humor.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
I may have even kind of made a joke to him.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
So I was in Lisbon, Portugal. I was actually in
the airport.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
I was on vacation with my wife, and I opened
my phone and I had a LinkedIn message from a
reporter asking me to confirm the tear and was in jail.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
And that was the shock of a lifetime.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
So I was.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
I was very surprised to hear that I had known
he was there. I actually had a missed call from
him the day before, you know, I don't I don't
know if it was related or not. And then, you know,
very quickly I went from shock to kind of panic,
you know, reaching out to everyone I knew to try
to figure out what was going on. And you know,
(31:56):
once I kind of learned initially what was going on,
you know, I had heard it and moved to a
safe house, I thought, Okay, this is probably just a misunderstanding.
You know, hopefully in a couple of days, this will
a result and he'll meet back home.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
With his family.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Tell me about how your former colleagues reacted.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
So it was a sense of shock, really, you know,
amongst my former law enforcement colleagues, it was a believable
how how have all people con tager and be in
this situation, you know, particularly given what his background is.
I mean, it's almost the irony of a special agent,
former special agent who spent his time investigating crypto crime
is now being detained in a foreign jurisdiction allegedly involved
(32:36):
in in you know, according to their government, some money
laundering related to cryptocurrency, So I think that was really
the shock factor, and then it quickly turned a concern, like,
you know, just for his personal well being. I mean again,
he's a he's a well known, well liked figure in
the community, and I think a lot of it was
just you know, I can't imagine how difficult this is
for him, but as well, you know, he's a father,
(32:57):
he has he has kids close nation to mind, just
imagining you know, what his family's going through, and I
think that's been the overriding concern really during this entire ordeal,
is both him his personal well being and his family.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Have you been able to be in touch with his family,
with his wife, Yuki over the past few months.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yeah, some, I mean again, I let a lot of
the family kind of respect their privacy and do what
they need to do, you know, recognizing that this is
a difficult situation. But yeah, you know, there there are
plenty of us that where we can try to help
out and make sure we're.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
In communication with the family.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Based on what you know about Tigrin, how do you
think he's endured these past several months.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
I think he's physically struggling very much. You know, he
has some pretty severe back issues. I know he's suffered
from her native discs. I know he's got issues, you know,
mobility issues. He's having a hard time walking due to
numbness and pain and his hips and his leg He's
also had bounts of malaria lung infections. So from the
physical side, you know, I think he's really been having
(34:01):
a tough time. You know, one of the things with
Tiger is he's a very strong willed individual, and you know,
I think he's done the best he can in the
circumstances to maintain that that composure, maintained that you know, strong,
strong fortitude. I will say, when I saw the video
(34:22):
recently of him leaving the courtroom and the guards refusing
to provide him assistance and he was clearly in distress
having a difficulty to time walking, that was quite shocking
and very distressing. And I think, you know, myself and
many of my colleagues were really kind of taken aback
by seeing that.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
As someone who works in crypto, how has this situation
impacted how you think about the industry in Nigeria.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think you know, it's it's it's
a very somewhat sobering situation where in an instance where
a representative of a company who is not the CEO
really doesn't have any kind of leadership potential at all,
is just an employee is brought to a jurisdiction or
comes at the invitation of a government to have ostensible
(35:11):
business meetings to discuss issues, to try to work collaboratively
with the regulator or with a government, and the government
decides they don't like what he has to say where
they have an issue with his employer, and then make
him the fall guy for it.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
You know, he's now detained.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I think that really sends a very kind of chilling
message across the industry that, you know, I have to
imagine other other companies that consider doing business in Nigeria
see this incident and either decide that it's just not
worth the risks or that you know, it's it's a
jurisdiction where you can't have that kind of collaborative relationship
(35:49):
with government.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
That you can in other jurisdictions.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
And I also think it, you know, it negatively affects
the consumer market in Nigeria, right. This is crypto businesses
are going to be afraid to dousiness there based on this,
this this incident, which makes it difficult for you know
what clearly was a pretty pretty large consumer base and
in a very hungry market for adoption of crypto.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
I know his story has reached many in the US government.
There have been efforts to try to respond to this issue.
What's your take on what the government has done or
maybe could do.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
You know, I think it took the government a bit
to kind of become more engaged, and I recognize there's
complications with foreign affairs, and you know, I really commend
particularly some of the efforts in Congress. You know, two
congressmen visited Tiburn in jail. There's been resolutions on the
Hill calling for his release, and I really commend that,
you know. I it's my understanding that there is work
(36:45):
going on at the highest levels the executive branch, and
recognizing these things take time. You know, in an ideal world, obviously,
anything the US government can do to bring him home
as soon as possible is what I think myself and
really anyone else paying attention to this wants to see happen.
I know there's been talk of you know, potentially designating
him as a detainee end of the elevenths in Act. You know,
(37:07):
I as a citizen, as a taxpayer, anything the government
can do to really bring the situation to a close
and bring him home. I mean, I look at this
as you know, beyond the fact that he served his
country for over a decade in law enforcement, is responsible
for some of the most impactful crypto investigations that have
ever occurred, He's also a citizen and a taxpayer and
(37:29):
a family man. He's got two kids at home and
a wife. Like looking at that from that perspective, the
more that can be done to bring him home.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
As soon as possible.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Man, if you had the opportunity to talk to the
Nigerian government about his situation, what message would you send them?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
I think, you know, if Nigeria has issues with a company,
they should deal with those issues directly. Holding an employee
who has no decision making authority is completely out of
balance and frankly, to me as a layperson, seems pretty counterproductive.
I struggle to understand the motivation and kind of the
(38:12):
end goal behind this detention. It certainly seems to me
as a casual observer to be a bit arbitrary and
almost counterproductive to the end goal. So I mean my
ass would be, you know, whether you have a legitimate
issue with his employer or not, Tigran is not a
part of that release Tigern.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
Allow him to come home, allow him to get the medical.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Treatment he needs, and you can still pursue, you know,
the allegations that you're pursuing through lawful means in your country,
But Tigran has nothing to do with this.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Send him home.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
What do you think is the end goal here on
the Nigeria side.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
You know, I don't know. I really don't.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
I don't have enough understanding of what the goal is.
I mean, I've tried to keep track of some of
the court hearings. It doesn't seem to be much progress
on the legal side. So I really struggle to understand
what the end goal is.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Yeah, I think we're all trying to figure that out
with this show. We're hoping that at some point Tigrin
will get word of it, we'll be able to hear it.
If you could speak to Tigrin, if he was you know,
if he's able to listen to this somehow, what would
you say to him?
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I mean, I tell him stay strong, you know, I
know it's difficult. You're in a tough spot. Stay strong.
You got a lot of people back here rooting for you,
pulling for you, doing what they can to raise awareness,
to push you know, those in power, to do what
can be done from from a legal standpoint, from a
executive branch, legislative branch standpoint. You know, I've attended part
(39:44):
of my role. I attend lots of different crypto conferences,
and every time tigrant.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
Is the subject of discussion.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
So the industry is certainly paying attention Tiger, and they're
doing what they can. The government is certainly paying attention,
and you know, just stay strong, and we really want
him home as soon as possible, back home.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
With his family.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Matt, you share the same background professionally as tea room.
So how does all this make you feel for the
work that you're doing.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
You know, it's a little bit inspired, some nervousness, to
be honest.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
You know, I traveled quite a bit, probably even more
places than Tigrin has, both professionally and personally. You know,
I always thought that if something were to happen, you know,
the cavalryes there, you know, the Team America, they'll come
help you out. And you know, I think I've learned
a lot since this incident kind of what that actually means.
Speaker 4 (40:34):
You know, I can relate a story.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
I was in a former Soviet Republic a few months
ago for work, very different circumstances. I was a guest
of the government doing some training, but there was civil
unrest going on at the time, and I remember sitting
in my hotel room watching this occur on the street
in front of my hotel, and the first thing that
popped in my head is Tigran situation because at the time,
you know, this was early on in his detention, and
(40:55):
I just had that kind of pit in my feeling.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
Of what would happen to me?
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Would I have access to diplomatic help or consular support,
like would the government be able to help me out? Again,
different circumstances, But I think this incident kind of really
made me, you know, want to appreciate, you know, being
an American citizen obviously all the benefits to come with it,
but also you know, thinking twice a little bit about
well where do I travel, and you know, are there
(41:20):
certain places that I could be you know, arbitrarily detained
or you know, harassed just because of what I do
for a living or what.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
I used to do.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah, I think that's why a lot of us see
we see ourselves in in his situation, especially those of
us who've you know, worked for the government, worked in
law enforcement, or even in national security. His situation really
hits home. So, Matt, what should the average just crypto
investor know about the relevance of tigrin.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
I think what's probably not really known is Tigrint and
you know, our colleagues really kind of helped bring trust
and transparency to crypto. When it first came out, you know,
over a decade ago, I think there was a belief
that it was a niche technology for hobbyists, and you know,
clearly some of the criminal element took advantage of it
early with dark net markets like silk Road and Alphabet.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
But when you look back at a lot of.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
The investigative work that Tigeran worked on, the investigations, the
ability to trace transactions, the methodology used by law enforcement
to do this type of work, and the cases that
have been brought, I think it really has pushed the
industry into a place where it's much more transparent, brought
more trust, and it really has helped promote kind of
(42:38):
the illicit uses of crypto. You see a massive growth
in retail adoption, institutional adoption. You see players in the
trad five space that a few years ago no one
would expect that are now launching, you know, crypto ETFs
and crypto trading platforms within in their larger customer base.
So I think it's it's probably not known to the
(42:59):
average but a lot of the work that Tieger did,
you know, both as a special agent and later as
a compliance officer, really kind of helped enable a lot
of this growth.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
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Crypto for Innovation dot org to get in touch and
join our next workshop. After his decade long stint in
public service at the IRSCI, Tigrin Gambarian joined the private
sector to work at Binance, the largest cryptocurrency exchange in
the world. He's the head of financial crime compliance, which
is why he made his way to Nigeria in February
(46:26):
of this year in an effort to resolve existing issues
between his company and the country's government. Of course, Tigrant
remains in Nigeria under unjust circumstances to this day. So
how is Binance assisting in the effort to bring Tigrin home.
Noah Perlman is the chief compliance officer for Binance, and
(46:46):
he offered some insight. Why don't we start with Tigrin
and Binance. Can you tell us why did Finance hire Tigrin?
Speaker 5 (46:57):
Sure? So, Tigrin Gambarian action. He predates my arrival at Binance,
and actually it's one of the reasons that I'll come
to it in a second, But the fact that he
was working at Finance was one of the reasons that
gave me confidence to actually join Binance, that Finance was
a company committed to doing the right thing in the
financial crime space. And so let me give you a
(47:18):
little background. T Gring a variant former IRS Criminal Investigation
federal agent, actually sort of legendary in sort of the
crypto investigative world. There's actually a book written by Andy Greenberg,
Tracers in the Dark. Tigrian is featured heavily in there,
and he's involved in some of the most important crypto
cases to date, including sort of the corrupt agent involved
(47:41):
in Silk Road and many other cases. And so when Binance,
we call it internally Binance two point zero, when Bynance
sort of turned the page and decided to get really
serious about compliance and financial crime compliance in particular, they
made a number of investments in personnel and talent and
hire such as Tiger Gambarian was was part of that
(48:05):
investment and part of that sort of turning the page.
So we brought him here again. I said that we
it was before my time, but to run financial crime compliance,
and that's the job he had and currently has.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Well. Tell us about the impact that Tigrin has had
at Binance before this detention.
Speaker 5 (48:25):
Yeah, so, I mean it's just monumental impact. So first
of all, you know, in terms of just his knowledge
and his ability to recruit talent, he sort of operated
almost as a force multiplier. You know, once somebody like
Tigrin with his reputation joins a firm. It's a signal
to the market that hey, this is a serious place.
So in addition to giving like me confidence and others,
(48:46):
he recruited a lot of former federal agents as well
to really beef up our program. And then his connections
in law enforcement. And you know, I would probably say
there's sort of two I mean, probably lots of things,
but two principal buckets of work that were particularly impactful,
that are particularly impactful. So one was just his technical ability,
(49:07):
technical ability to sort of analyze and investigate and sort
of train the folks so that we really sort of
had a robust program, best in class program in terms
of detecting wrongdoing around the world. And then second, his
relationships with law enforcement again globally enabled us to sort
of work collaboratively but also to push back. We're appropriate,
(49:31):
you know, law enforcement, you know, very skill levels. Crypto
is sort of you know, it's an emerging technology and
the investigations can be challenging. And just because we get
a request from law enforcement to seize funds doesn't necessarily
mean that the request is perfect on its face. But
having somebody like Tigran who has the trust of law enforcements,
it enabled him to not I don't even want to
(49:54):
say pushed back, but to work collaborative in law enforcement
to make sure that innocent users were not negatively impacted
and that we can do the right thing both by
law enforcement, by regulators, and importantly our users as well.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
So could you tell us a little bit more about
what that would consist of in terms of t grin
going to another country, you know, Nigeria or otherwise, what
would he be doing in relation to law enforcement locally?
Speaker 5 (50:21):
Part of what he was doing him and his team
would be training law enforcement, keeping dialogues open, and also
working with regulators and governments as well. Both both educate,
keep communication open to make sure that we're all sort
of aligned and where we want to go with crypto.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
No, I'm going to back up a little bit with
this next question because I realized some people may actually
not know. Could you describe for us exactly what is finance?
Speaker 5 (50:49):
Yes, so look, in the simplest terms, Finance is a
crypto exchange. We offer a number of products and a
number of services, but it's at its heart, finance is
an exchange where people can come to buy, sell, and
store their crypto. We are the world's largest exchange by volume,
operating in over one hundred countries. We are also the
(51:13):
most regulated exchange in the world, having nineteen different licenses
and registrations throughout the world. So that's what Finance is.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
So there's the idea that there was a Binance two
point oh, which Tigrin was a part of. Could you
describe for us what was I guess finance one point zero?
Speaker 5 (51:33):
Sure, So, I mean, look that we use that term internally.
But Binance's history, we're seven years old. When Finance started
seven years ago as an exchange, it was founded by
crypto enthusiasts, technical experts, traders. It really was not focused
on compliance, not that that's an excuse, but that just
(51:55):
happens to be how it started. And very quickly it
became almost a victim of its own success. It grew exponentially,
I think within within six months, became profitable. Well we're
right now at over two hundred and twenty million users,
so this speed, I don't want to say unprecedented, but
(52:16):
it's pretty dramatic. But as a result, in the early days,
compliances was not a focus, and at a certain point
the founders realized they did need to get serious about compliance.
And this is what we refer to internally as Finance
two point zero as sort of a turning the page
and look, I don't want to gloss over the fact.
(52:36):
You know, we have paid for our mistakes. Our original
founder CZ stepped down as part of a resolution that
we reached last year with the US government. We paid
substantial fines, but we're you know, while that was very painful,
we were very much focused on the future, on being
a fully compliant, regulated registered exchange and serving our users
(52:58):
across the world.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Before we even get into Tigrin in Nigeria and the arrest,
can you tell us more about Finance's history in Nigeria
in general? What was happening before this past February in
terms of Nigeria and Finance.
Speaker 5 (53:17):
Sure, so, we had had a history of working with
in Nigeria and actually working with Nigerian law enforcement. I
took a look at the stats and I think between
twenty two and twenty three, I think we may have
don't only to the exact number, but over six hundred
law enforcement requests from the Nigerian government in which we
(53:37):
assisted responding to the equivalent of subpoenas helping freeze assets.
So we had sort of a long history of working
collaborative with the Nigerian government and in Nigeria it's an
important market. At a certain point, I believe in twenty
twenty two, there started to be as throughout the world,
sort of emerging regulation and emerging desire to have crypto
(54:01):
companies register and we engage proactively or try to engage
I should say proactively with the Nigerian government to make
sure that we were not running afoul of any regulations
or emerging regulations. And those communications were somewhat stop and start.
We didn't really get a lot of traction there. But
at a certain point, and this is what ultimately led
(54:23):
to his visit, At a certain point there was there
was a desire to have sort of sit down communications
with the Nigerian government, to sign a memorandum understanding and
to really to move the to move the relationship forward
in a in a more regulated way. That was what
led him to come to Nigeria. To go to Nigeria
(54:46):
should say, to attend a couple of hearings. To be
very clear, this was at the Nigerian government's invitation, and
it is you know something that obviously that's why he went.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Can you describe for us what happened with Tigrin in
Nigeria at the beginning of this year.
Speaker 5 (55:05):
So, yeah, So there were a couple of visits, so
again at the Nigerian government's invitation Tigrin. These were conversations
that began sort of into November December of twenty twenty
three for ultimately a meeting that was set, an initial
meeting that was set in January of twenty twenty four.
Chiegrin came to that meeting. There was some back and forth.
(55:31):
Ultimately he left that meeting with no resolution. There were
some indications during that time that there may have been
I don't want to say hostilities, but that the meeting
was less collaborative than one would expect given that we
were invited there, and there were allegations raised at that
(55:52):
time that Finance may have had some historical violations of
Nigerian laws. One thing that should be very clear is,
as part of Binance two point zero, we are very
much of the view that if we have made historic
mistakes and there's evidence of that, we are interested in
resolving them. We've demonstrated that with the United States and
(56:15):
with other countries around the world, and so when Nigeria
indicated that there may have been violations of their rules
and their laws. This is something we wanted to engage
with them. We didn't just want to pick their word
for it. But on the other hand, if there's evidence
that we may have violated something, that's something we want
to do, engage with and resolve. Tigran. As part of
(56:36):
a subsequent meeting that occurred in February of this year,
Tigran was invited back to Nigeria again to participate in
some meetings to discuss both collaboration and also to answer
potential about potential allegations of wrongdoing in the past. It
(56:56):
was at the conclusion of one of these meetings in
which the night year in government detained him and said
he wasn't free to leave. That's over two hundred days ago.
He has been detained in Nigeria.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
What were they saying that they were upset about?
Speaker 5 (57:16):
So Finance and Tigrin were both charged with two different charges.
One was tax evasion and one was money laundering. I
believe the tax evasion charge against Tigran has subsequently been dropped.
But so there's sort of two buckets of criminal charges.
I mean to me to us as a company. What's
(57:36):
unfathomable is the fact that Tigrin, who as look as
important as he is to our program, Let's be honest,
he's a mid level employee. He's not an officer of
the company. He doesn't exercise decision making power in any
meaningful way over the direction of the company tax policy.
To detain him is completely unwarranted and unnecessary. And one
(57:59):
of the things that we've what I've continued to try
and articulate is that we have a track record of resolving.
We will resolve. They don't need to hold Tigrin as
a ransdom is leveraged as a bargaining chip in order
to get us to the table. We want to talk.
If there's evidence something wrongdoing, let's see it, let's talk
about it, and let's resolve it. But we've yet to
(58:21):
see that.
Speaker 1 (58:22):
So getting to the detention, exactly, how did you find
out and what happened when they arrested him.
Speaker 5 (58:31):
Yeah, it's actually yeah, I mean, just reliving it is
pretty painful. So prior to his detention, I was in
real time communication with him. We were in real time
communication with him. I was asking how the hearings were going,
and at a certain point. Actually the morning, the morning session,
he reported back, we went pretty positively. At some point
(58:53):
in the afternoon, I received message that things have taken
a more adversarial turn. As point, I did get a
message from him to call the embassy. He reported that
he looked like he was being detained. So that happened
in real time, and obviously you can imagine, you know,
we sort of went into overdrive trying to figure out
exactly what happened, where he was, how to get in communication,
(59:17):
et cetera, notifying the embassy. And again that's you know,
that's some two hundred odd days ago.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
Are you able to communicate with him in his situation?
Speaker 5 (59:27):
We have, We can communicate thro him through official channels
he does. You know, we do have lawyers. It's not
real time obviously, and it's not you know, it's not ideal,
but you know, we do from time to time, were
able to communicate, to get messages from him, you know,
through those channels.
Speaker 1 (59:44):
And what has been the communication like with Nigerian officials
and how constant is it.
Speaker 5 (59:50):
Look, I can't really get into sort of the details
of that on a specific level. What I can say
is that you know, the two messages. The two sort
of over our messages that we continue to sort of
push publicly privately is one, we're committed to resolving, so
let's get to the table and talk and figure out
how we can resolve. And of course two, and more importantly,
(01:00:12):
is you gotta let Tigrin out. He does you know,
he serves no purpose. He's a mid level guy. And
this is really sort of the inequities here are really tremendous.
By holding them, how.
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Have other employees responded?
Speaker 5 (01:00:27):
On a personal level, It's the most challenging experience I've
ever had as a manager or as a colleague, to
have a good friend, well respected colleague detained unjustly like
this ways on me, and I know it ways on
the entire company in a in a meaningful way.
Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (01:00:47):
There is definitely a feeling of, you know, as you
can imagine helplessness. I mean, there's there's little we can
actually do as employees other than sort of, uh, you know,
keep our focus on this and and work as hard
as we can, uh, you know, to sort of keep
keep him in the news, uh, and to keep the
pressure on and to keep the dialogue open with Nigeria
(01:01:09):
so we can get we can get to some resolution here.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
What about the broader crypto community. What sort of message
would you like to send to the crypto community about
tigrant situation?
Speaker 5 (01:01:19):
So just you know, keeping you know, keeping him front
and center. I mean, look, you know, it's on a
practical level, Uh. It unfortunately serves as sort of a
wake up call in a warning too crypto executives, I
mean not just crypto really any executive, but certainly crypto
executives that this is a possibility, and certainly anybody traveling
(01:01:42):
to a jurisdiction which may be adverse to crypto ort
to make sure that they're being very thoughtful about that
and that the security that they thought through that you know,
one of the messages that we got that I that
I received from Tigern early.
Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
On on.
Speaker 5 (01:02:02):
Was a desire not to be forgotten. He communicated, you know,
he's sitting there in prison, he knows life goes on,
and his sort of admonition was, you know, don't forget
about me. And it's one of the reasons why it
is a standing agenda item. At every meeting I run,
(01:02:24):
the first bullet point is update on Tigrin, even if
I don't have one, because I think it's important that
we don't lose that muscle memory that our colleague is
sitting in Kuja prison in Nigeria while life goes on.
And so I guess my my plead to the rest
of the crypto community is the same, is to continue
to talk about this, to publicize it, to think about it.
(01:02:47):
And the crypto community has rallied'm uh, there's been a
tremendous amount of support. Tigran is you know, as I
said before, incredibly respected in the law enforcement community, in
the crypto community, so there's no shortage of people who
are rallying around the cause. And I'm personally in finances
as a company, grateful for that support.
Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
No, is there anything else that you'd like to convey
about Tigrin's situation.
Speaker 5 (01:03:13):
It's heartbreaking for him, you know, he's incredibly strong. Some
of the message we get back, even some of his
humors still comes through, which is just remarkable. But this
is taking a terrible toll on him, on his family,
and I'm grateful for you giving me the opportunity to
talk about it and for you guys exploring his case.
(01:03:35):
It's really important and we're appreciative.
Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
Tigrin Gambarian's imprisonment is simply heartbreaking, as noted so painfully
by Tigren's wife, Yuki, what happened to him could happen
to any of us. The greed of corruption doesn't care
who it ensnares. Tigrin's detention is a cautionary tale to
those who are fighting financial crime. It's my hope that
(01:04:01):
by sharing his story, we can build pressure within the
United States and in Nigeria to get him released. Please
share these episodes with your circle so that we can
make sure Tigrin isn't forgotten. We must bring Tigrin home.
I'm Yaya Jata Finussi. This is designated on the Illicit
(01:04:23):
Edge Network.
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(00:23):
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Speaker 2 (00:40):
T Grin was seriously one of the best special agents
that we had at IRLCI. T Grin is a hostage.
He did nothing wrong. He is sitting in a prison
for a crime that he did not commit. The US
(01:01):
government needs to step up and step up now.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
I'm Yaya Jatafinusi and this is designated from the Illicit
Edge Network. This is part two of our look into
the cause of Tigrin Gambarian, the former IRS criminal investigator
who has been detained in Nigeria for over seven months now.
He served as country as one of the best investigators
of illicit finance involving cryptocurrencies when bitcoin was first emerging
(01:36):
as a tool for cyber criminals. He was so good
at his job that the world's largest crypto exchange, Finance
recruited him to help the company clean up its act
after years of allowing illicit activity on its platform. His
detention on trumped up charges in February shocked many of
us in the world of anti money laundering compliance, because
if it could happen to Tigrin, who was just doing
(01:58):
his job, it could happen any of us. In Part one,
we spoke to his wife, Yuki, Congressman Rich McCormick, and
Wired senior writer Andy Greenberg. In this episode, you'll hear
from some of those who've worked with him, side by side,
friends and colleagues who are devastated by his situation and
are trying to bring him home. We'll start with Richard Weber,
(02:21):
who was the former chief of the Internal Revenue Service's
Criminal Investigations Division, better known as IRSCI. He supervised thousands
of financial crime investigators around the country, including Tigrin Gambarian,
one of his finest agents. He explains what many people
don't know about IRSCI and tells how Tigrin so positively
(02:43):
impacted the organization, so time to get designated and hear
the behind the scenes story so we can figure out
what needs to happen to bring tigrin home. What is
IRSCI and how does it fit in the world of
fighting financial crime?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So irs CI is an amazing law enforcement organization. The
agency has been around for one hundred and five years.
It is the only law enforcement agency that has the
authority to work tax crime cases. But the agency has
(03:23):
historically been able to investigate some of the most important
and complex financial crime cases that's out there. It has
an incredibly long and storied history and some of the
best financial investigative agents in the world.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And so I'm assuming most people may be unaware of
the i r S having a criminal investigations unit or division.
What would most pop people be surprised about when it
comes to i RSci.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, I think I think there are a lot of
things that people would be surprised about. First of all,
it is true that many folks in the public don't
realize that the Treasury Department has a law enforcement agency.
Within i r S, about four thousand employees, twenty five
hundred special agents that are in twenty five field offices,
(04:28):
across the country. They have foreign attache posts in about
twelve countries, and it's an agency that really focuses on
the complex financial crimes cases. What I think the public
(04:48):
also wouldn't understand is some of the historic cases that
have been around for so many years. When people think
about IRS, sometimes they do think about the al Capone
case as the only law enforcement agency that was able
to get a compone when no other law enforcement agency
(05:09):
was able to do so. We were also involved many
many years ago in the Charles Lindbergh baby kidnapping case,
and most people aren't aware of that. It was actually
the I R s c I Chief and a few
agents that came up with the idea of marking the
(05:30):
treasury bills and recording them, and that was ultimately the
way that law enforcement was able to catch the defendant
and prosecute him. And it's something that that I don't
think most people realize. Well. Also, back during the Iraq War,
(05:54):
I R c I sent about ten agents into that
war zone to focus on asset seizures, and we were
able to work with other law enforcement agencies but really
spearhead that effort to capture and to bring back tens
(06:16):
of millions of dollars, actually I think it was in
the billion dollar range. And also give back to the
to the Iraqi people. So so there was a lot
of effort done behind the scenes in a lot of
our cases that the public doesn't realize kind of the
significance of the agency.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
And so what was your role at I R s C.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I So I grew up as a as a prosecutor.
I served as a prosecutor at the US Attorney's Office
in the Eastern District for over ten years. I was
chief of the money Laundering Section in Washington for about
five years, went to the Manhattan DA's office, and then
I got a call about the position of chief of
(07:01):
I R SCI, which quite frankly was a dream job
for me to lead the best financial investigative agency in
the world. And being a prosecutor and working with those agents,
I had a real deep respect for the agents and
(07:21):
the work that they were doing in every field office
across the country. So when I got the call and
the opportunity to put my hat in the ring, I
jumped at it and ultimately was successful in getting the position.
Moving back down to Washington and for five and a
half years had the real sincere honor and privilege to
(07:44):
be chief and to be leader and be responsible for
such a great organization with so many dedicated special agents
and employees.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Richard, how did you get to know Tigrin so?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
T Grin was seriously one of the best special agents
that we had at IRSCI when I was chief. As
I mentioned, we had twenty five hundred or so special
agents across the country. I spent a lot of my
time traveling to every field office in every state, in
(08:22):
every location, and I met many agents. In the five
and a half years that I served as chief. I
knew a lot of agents. They often presented cases. I
had town halls at every field office three times a month.
But I didn't know the names of every agent, and
(08:42):
I didn't know every agent personally. And I knew t Grin,
and I knew him pretty early on in my career
because he was truly one of the best cyber and
crypto agents that we had in the entire agency. Prosecutors
sought him out for their cases. Supervisors loved assigning him work.
(09:04):
He was a dogged investigator who really knew crypto more
than anyone in the agency at that time. He knew
crypto when when you know, at a time when no
one knew what crypto even was, he was investigating cases,
he was teaching and training other agents, and he was
a real force in the agency when I was there
(09:28):
and after I left.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Can you share some of the cases that he worked on? Sure? So.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Tagan first of all, was assigned to a task force
that focused on national security terrorist financing issues. He was
also a founding member of the Digital Currency Digital Asset
task FORSE. Tigrian really believed in the concept of working
(09:56):
in a cooperative way with other agencies and other partners.
He was a type of agent that would roll up
his sleeves and do all the work that he needed
to do for that particular investigation. But he had no
problem working with other agents and other countries on their
on their cases and on their investigations. When he was
(10:20):
an agent focusing in the cyber and crypto area, he
was behind the scenes working the Silk Road case, which
was one of the biggest takedowns of a of a
dark net company doing incredibly bad things that were involved
(10:40):
in every single criminal enterprise that you can think of,
and Tigrin was behind the scenes working that case day
after day. Until that case was ultimately taken down. Tigrin
was also heavily involved in the Mount Docks case, which
devastated the the digital asset community in the crypto industry
(11:04):
at the time and involved a Russian enterprise that was
involved in so many different forms of criminal activity. And
and those two cases are just, you know, two of
the many that he worked, but it really showed his
his ability to work these incredibly complicated cases, cross jurisdictionally
(11:30):
with other agencies, multi national, international cases that that really
reached around the globe.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Is there one thing that you could point to that
he did that set him apart?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
So Tigrin honestly was one of the hardest working agents
that I've ever worked with. I think one of the
things that I would always remember about Tigrin's work was
just his unbelievable no knowledge of the area. It's it's
not often where you find an agent that has incredible
(12:07):
investigative skills but also substantive knowledge about the particular area
that they're investigating. And his deep, deep background and experience
in crypto and blockchain technology and his ability to really,
you know, go through some complicated and detailed fact patterns
(12:30):
is just something I think that really set him apart.
His drive, his tenacity, his dogged efforts to really track
down every piece and puzzle of the of the case.
Nothing was ever left behind, and he was incredibly sort
after by by other agencies and prosecutors.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
How did you learn about tigrants of rest and what
went through your mind when you found out about it?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
So I was actually contacted by an agent at irs
I still keep in touch with many current irs CI
special agents and retired special agents, and one of the
agents that works in the organization had contacted me to
tell me what was going on. I also have a
(13:22):
connection to Byance's current chief compliance officer, Noah Perlman, who
I worked with personally at the US Attorney's Office in
the Eastern District. He was a prosecutor with me, and
I've known Noah for probably about twenty years. Is by
far one of the best compliance professionals with the utmost
(13:47):
integrity in the industry. So I had also spoken to
to know about the situation and completely shocked that someone
like Tigrin could be arrested or even detained in Nigeria
or in any foreign country or anywhere in the world
(14:10):
for any potential criminal wrongdoing. I knew without even looking
at any of the facts which I which I looked
at very carefully after that, but I knew at that
very moment that Tigrin did absolutely nothing wrong and it
was the Nigerian government that was trying to get something
(14:31):
out of his detainment.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So how has the law enforcement community responded?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
So it's really interesting. The law enforcement community, in my view,
both as a former prosecutor and former chief of the agency,
has always been a really close knit, you know, family,
and especially within I R s C. I I was
always amazed how thousands of the employees could really get
(15:01):
behind the mission and really care about the work and
about each other. And I have been in contact with
probably hundreds of people. I've been posting on LinkedIn repeatedly
about what's going on with Ti Grin and had received
(15:21):
literally thousands and thousands of messages about this. Former prosecutors
and government officials signed a letter that went to the
State Department to Secretary Blincoln. I think that was signed
by over one hundred former prosecutors and agents. There are
(15:44):
so many people within this community that cares so much
about the issue and about bringing Tigrint home.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
What do you think the US government needs to do
more of in order to address tigrant situation.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
So tigrant, without a doubt, is being held captive in
a Nigerian prison. The prison that he is being held
at is a prison that also holds the worst of
the worst criminals in Nigeria. It's a prison that holds
(16:23):
really bad people, including terrorists. And here we have a
former law enforcement official, a dedicated public servant, who is
working at a crypto company as a mid level employee,
not a decision maker, not an executive, who is trying
(16:46):
to resolve a compliance issue, who then gets arrested and
thrown into the same facility. And the US government should
do everything in their power to get him out and
bring him home to his wife, Yuki, and his two
(17:07):
young children. They need to, and they have the authority
to do this under the Levenson Act. They need to
characterize him as a US citizen wrongfully detained. Tigrin is
a hostage. He did nothing wrong. He is sitting in
a prison for a crime that he did not commit.
(17:30):
He's been in prison for over two hundred days, almost
eight months, and no one knows what he really did wrong.
I don't even think the Nigerian government know what he
did wrong, yet they're holding him. So the government in
the US needs to put additional pressure on Nigeria and
(17:54):
ally right, they're an ally country and they need to
really focus on getting him back to his family. The
US sends to Nigeria one point two billion dollars approximately
a year in aid. There are a lot of things
that the US can do in terms of sanctions, in
(18:16):
terms of negotiations, in terms of diplomacy. It's my understanding
that this has been brought up to the State Department,
to the US Ambassador Secretary Blincoln has mentioned this. I'm
told during a visit to Nigeria. I'm also told that
the US government is saying that they have faith in
(18:40):
the Nigerian court system, and I have no idea how
they can make that statement and what faccial basis they
have in that when you have someone that absolutely did
not commit a crime being held without a hearing and
without a trial for eight months, without the ability to
(19:03):
really connect with his legal team, someone that is now
facing some serious medical issues and it's going on eight months.
So my view personally is the US government needs to
step up and step up now. Please everybody that is
(19:23):
going to listen to this and see this. Please, you know,
write to Congress, right to the State Department, right to
Secretary Lincoln and Ambassador Hill, the US ambassador, and really
really continue to talk about it, to focus on it,
and to send the message that we need to bring
Tacrid home.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
If you could speak to the Nigerian government, what message
would you send them?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I would ask the Nigerian government to do what is right,
what is legal, what is just, and release him. Deal
with Binance the company if you have issues with Binance,
but don't hold Tigrin hostage in your demands to get
money from the company.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
We hope that Tigrin will somehow maybe hear this interview
or see it. If you could say something to Tigrin,
what would you tell them?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So I hope that Tigrin is watching this from his
couch in his living room at home, surrounded by his
wife and children and friends, and not watching.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
This in.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Nigeria. To be honest with you, I want Tigrin to
understand how many people are focused on this, how many
people care about this, how many people are trying everything
that we can do to fight to get him home.
There are a lot of people that love Tigrin, a
(21:00):
lot of people that know that these are trumped up charges,
and we will do everything possible to bring him home.
We will not forget about Tigrin. I think about this
case and about Tigrin every single day, and I am
one of many people that are trying to fight to
get him home.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Richard, is there anything else you'd like to share for
the audience.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, So just a couple of things. So recently, I
was told by someone that that visited Tigrin not too
long ago in Nigeria, and Tigrin wanted to send me
a message that he very much appreciates everything that we
(21:45):
are doing for him, to raise awareness, to fight for him,
to keep the focus on him, and to not forget
that he is there, and he is so appreciative of
what we're doing doing and moved and grateful. That was
from Tigrin, and that message has only caused me to
(22:09):
want to fight more to bring him home and to
do everything that we can to convince the US government
to do more to fight to get Tigrin home. The
other thing that I was going to mention is not
long ago, I was speaking at a conference. It was
a conference hosted by the Coalition against Financial Crime, and
(22:32):
at the end of my talk and I talked a
lot about Tigrin and what was happening in his case,
they presented an award for Tigrin for being the crime fighter,
the financial crime Fighter of the Year. I am holding
(22:52):
that award. I look at that award every single day
in my office and I am looking forward to end
that award to Tigrin and thanking him on behalf of
the entire financial crime community, which is a significant community,
and really tell them how much we appreciate everything that
(23:13):
he has done the fight financial crime.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Another agent who worked under Richard Webber at IRSCI was
Matt Price. Matt worked cases with Tigrin Gambarian and they
became fast friends. They formed a bond that extended into
their departure from the public sector when both joined the
effort to help tackle compliance issues at Binance. Matt had
left the company by the time Tigrin was arrested in Nigeria.
(23:40):
He offered details into their time working together and he
was able to shed light on what sort of man
Tigrin is and how he influenced many other agents and investigators.
How did you first get to know Tigrin.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
So I met Tigrin when I returned to IRSCI. I
was assigned to the cybercrimes unit. In a while I've
been in the agency and he's actually the first agent
I met. Kind of hit it off with him right away.
He's a funny, kind of goofy guy, like I had
an instant connection, kind of you know, we were able
to tell each other jokes, make each other laugh, things
like that, and you know, as we got to be
(24:15):
friends working together on cases, traveling together, you know, lots
of good times, lots of adventures together.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And then how did you all collaborate on actual cases.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
The unit that we were in, the d C Cybercrimes Unit,
was a real tight knit group of special agents. We
kind of traveled extensively together on casework. We supported each
other's investigations. One of the first cases that I started
working with him on, I had just got in the unit.
He needed someone to go do a very sensitive interview
with someone in the crypto industry in New York.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
I just met this guy in the day before I
jump on a train.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
I don't know what to expect, and by the end
of the day we're hanging out like we were best friends.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
You know, it was a very tight kind of knit unit.
We all support each other.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
We worked together very extensively, and we helped each other
out a lot, but our cases globally.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
So how did he impact you?
Speaker 4 (25:03):
I mean a couple of ways.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
There's the personal way, of course, you know, being a
good friend, just a guy that I you know, I
consider a good buddy of mine.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
I had a good time with, got to.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Have a lot of good, good adventures, you know, talk
about our families, personal lives, personal issues, things like that.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
In a professional manner.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I mean, he's he's known as the OG, the original
crypto investigator really in federal law enforcement. And you know,
I learned a lot of technical skills from him. I
learned a lot of kind of how to take this
what to me at the time was kind of new
nebulous technology, leverage it and be able to use it
investigatively and work some really great cases out of it. So,
(25:41):
you know, very much a personal and professional relationship.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
You mentioned you all had adventures together.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
What type of adventures I mean everything from you know,
travel mishaps, going to places in Europe or you know.
A great example I like to tell is I was
the lead investigator on the Bitcoin Fog investigation. I got
a very last minute tip that the administrator of bitcoin
Fog was coming to the US to LA. I lived
(26:09):
in the Washington, DC area, so I knew that would
mean an overnight, last second flight to LA and I
needed an agent to help. This was during COVID at
the time, a lot of a lot of field offices
weren't really well staffed. I said, let me call Tiger
and see what he's doing. Tigran at the times living
in Presno, California, which is like four or five hours
away from LA, and I think this is really digative
of the type of agent and in person Tigran is.
(26:33):
I didn't even finish telling him about the alert. He says, yeah,
I'll be there, and he's, you know, kind of my
guy on the ground. I know, I haven't been to
LA operationally before, only on vacation, so he's helping me
make contacts with the local I r S, local HSI,
local FBI agents and he stayed up with me all
night we waited for the Bitcoin Fog. Adnan Roman, startling
(26:54):
off to arrive from Moscow, shows up at like one
in the morning. He goes through customs and then Tiger
and I driving him from Lax Airport down to sant Ana,
California for his detention, and I'll never forget you know,
the Atomin was very hungry because he had been on
an overnight flight and the only thing opened was a
jack in the box and Tiger and myself and Roman
(27:15):
starling off sitting in the back of a government car
while he eats a meal from jacking the box before
he take him to jail. And that's just kind of
indicative of some of the crazy type adventures.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
But I think the more important part is really a
reflection on his personality.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
You know, like not everyone is willing to take that
call and say, I don't care what time it is,
I'm going to drive, you know, four or five hours
away from my family on a weekend and be there
to help my colleague out.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
So that's him as a person, as a colleague. What
about his skills as an agent? How did his work
as an agent impact the cases?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
I mean again, he's one of the first agents that
really figured out how to trace bitcoin in a manner
that could be used in a criminal investigation. He was
the case agent on the Sean Bridges and Carl Force
case so pro corruption and at the time there was
kind of a belief perhaps amongst the folks in that
(28:11):
case that were charged, that crypto wasn't necessarily traceable, it
hadn't really been done, and it certainly hadn't.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
Been really used in a prosecution yet.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
So he, you know, being a curious, trained forensic accountant,
was able to pick up patterns in the blockchain and
trace a lot of the transactions manually. So as that happened,
that being kind of the first case, it really set
the stage for a lot of the future investigations.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
You know, as commercial software came out, Tigeran was kind
of one of the first users of any of these tools.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
He influenced the design of some of them, helped train
really most of us in I R. SCI as well
as other agencies. And somehow, my manager, either by either
force a personality or just the fact that he's Tigeran
and everybody knows him, somehow was involved in almost every
investigation in some way or another, whether it's he got
(29:02):
a lead from someone in the industry, or through a
relationship he had with a foreign law enforcement authority, or
even he just happened to be messing around on the
internet or in a crypto for him and he found
something interesting. So he really kind of served as as
really the glue, the connected tissue between a lot of
the historic crypto cases and especially the ones that I
(29:24):
R SCI worked.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Matt, You and Tigrin both left government and would join Binance.
What was happening with Binance at the time, and what
was that transition like for Tigrin?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yeah, certainly, I mean again, you know, I don't think
it's a secret now after news, recent news articles and
of course the criminal case against cz In. The company,
you know, Bidance had some compliance challenges and at the
time in twenty twenty one, we're looking to bring in,
you know, experts with compliance backgrounds, investigation backgrounds, things of
that nature. So I both joined on the same day
(30:01):
in September of twenty twenty one. We were brought in
to build out an investigations team, higher staff, developed tools,
developed policies, and things of that nature to help Finance
do a better job of reducing risk, protecting their customer base, and.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Fulfilled compliance allegations.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
As far as transition for Tigeran, I mean it was
a somewhat of a natural fit. He had the very
strong crypto investigative background, and he really had that kind
of experience in the industry, and you know, I think
we both jumped in and kind of hit the ground running.
I mean the first week, certainly, going from a law
enforcement world to a private sector job with no transition,
(30:44):
I think for both of us was quite a shock,
but also, you know, a good opportunity to kind of
leverage our skills and you know, build things from the
ground up.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
So, Matt, how did you learn about t Grin's arrest?
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Yeah, so I knew he was going to Nigeria.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Kind of a running joke we always had with he
and my colleagues and finances, That's the one place I'd
never go, and just given some of my experience as
a special agent and working investigations, you know, involving Nigerian
Nigerian subjects or corruption.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
So there was kind of a source of lighthearted humor.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
I may have even kind of made a joke to him.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
So I was in Lisbon, Portugal. I was actually in
the airport.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
I was on vacation with my wife, and I opened
my phone and I had a LinkedIn message from a
reporter asking me to confirm the tear and was in jail.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
And that was the shock of a lifetime.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
So I was.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
I was very surprised to hear that I had known
he was there. I actually had a missed call from
him the day before, you know, I don't I don't
know if it was related or not. And then, you know,
very quickly I went from shock to kind of panic,
you know, reaching out to everyone I knew to try
to figure out what was going on. And you know,
(31:56):
once I kind of learned initially what was going on,
you know, I had heard it and moved to a
safe house, I thought, Okay, this is probably just a misunderstanding.
You know, hopefully in a couple of days, this will
a result and he'll meet back home.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
With his family.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Tell me about how your former colleagues reacted.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
So it was a sense of shock, really, you know,
amongst my former law enforcement colleagues, it was a believable
how how have all people con tager and be in
this situation, you know, particularly given what his background is.
I mean, it's almost the irony of a special agent,
former special agent who spent his time investigating crypto crime
is now being detained in a foreign jurisdiction allegedly involved
(32:36):
in in you know, according to their government, some money
laundering related to cryptocurrency, So I think that was really
the shock factor, and then it quickly turned a concern, like,
you know, just for his personal well being. I mean again,
he's a he's a well known, well liked figure in
the community, and I think a lot of it was
just you know, I can't imagine how difficult this is
for him, but as well, you know, he's a father,
(32:57):
he has he has kids close nation to mind, just
imagining you know, what his family's going through, and I
think that's been the overriding concern really during this entire ordeal,
is both him his personal well being and his family.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Have you been able to be in touch with his family,
with his wife, Yuki over the past few months.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yeah, some, I mean again, I let a lot of
the family kind of respect their privacy and do what
they need to do, you know, recognizing that this is
a difficult situation. But yeah, you know, there there are
plenty of us that where we can try to help
out and make sure we're.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
In communication with the family.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Based on what you know about Tigrin, how do you
think he's endured these past several months.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
I think he's physically struggling very much. You know, he
has some pretty severe back issues. I know he's suffered
from her native discs. I know he's got issues, you know,
mobility issues. He's having a hard time walking due to
numbness and pain and his hips and his leg He's
also had bounts of malaria lung infections. So from the
physical side, you know, I think he's really been having
(34:01):
a tough time. You know, one of the things with
Tiger is he's a very strong willed individual, and you know,
I think he's done the best he can in the
circumstances to maintain that that composure, maintained that you know, strong,
strong fortitude. I will say, when I saw the video
(34:22):
recently of him leaving the courtroom and the guards refusing
to provide him assistance and he was clearly in distress
having a difficulty to time walking, that was quite shocking
and very distressing. And I think, you know, myself and
many of my colleagues were really kind of taken aback
by seeing that.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
As someone who works in crypto, how has this situation
impacted how you think about the industry in Nigeria.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think you know, it's it's it's
a very somewhat sobering situation where in an instance where
a representative of a company who is not the CEO
really doesn't have any kind of leadership potential at all,
is just an employee is brought to a jurisdiction or
comes at the invitation of a government to have ostensible
(35:11):
business meetings to discuss issues, to try to work collaboratively
with the regulator or with a government, and the government
decides they don't like what he has to say where
they have an issue with his employer, and then make
him the fall guy for it.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
You know, he's now detained.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I think that really sends a very kind of chilling
message across the industry that, you know, I have to
imagine other other companies that consider doing business in Nigeria
see this incident and either decide that it's just not
worth the risks or that you know, it's it's a
jurisdiction where you can't have that kind of collaborative relationship
(35:49):
with government.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
That you can in other jurisdictions.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
And I also think it, you know, it negatively affects
the consumer market in Nigeria, right. This is crypto businesses
are going to be afraid to dousiness there based on this,
this this incident, which makes it difficult for you know
what clearly was a pretty pretty large consumer base and
in a very hungry market for adoption of crypto.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
I know his story has reached many in the US government.
There have been efforts to try to respond to this issue.
What's your take on what the government has done or
maybe could do.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
You know, I think it took the government a bit
to kind of become more engaged, and I recognize there's
complications with foreign affairs, and you know, I really commend
particularly some of the efforts in Congress. You know, two
congressmen visited Tiburn in jail. There's been resolutions on the
Hill calling for his release, and I really commend that,
you know. I it's my understanding that there is work
(36:45):
going on at the highest levels the executive branch, and
recognizing these things take time. You know, in an ideal world, obviously,
anything the US government can do to bring him home
as soon as possible is what I think myself and
really anyone else paying attention to this wants to see happen.
I know there's been talk of you know, potentially designating
him as a detainee end of the elevenths in Act. You know,
(37:07):
I as a citizen, as a taxpayer, anything the government
can do to really bring the situation to a close
and bring him home. I mean, I look at this
as you know, beyond the fact that he served his
country for over a decade in law enforcement, is responsible
for some of the most impactful crypto investigations that have
ever occurred, He's also a citizen and a taxpayer and
(37:29):
a family man. He's got two kids at home and
a wife. Like looking at that from that perspective, the
more that can be done to bring him home.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
As soon as possible.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Man, if you had the opportunity to talk to the
Nigerian government about his situation, what message would you send them?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
I think, you know, if Nigeria has issues with a company,
they should deal with those issues directly. Holding an employee
who has no decision making authority is completely out of
balance and frankly, to me as a layperson, seems pretty counterproductive.
I struggle to understand the motivation and kind of the
(38:12):
end goal behind this detention. It certainly seems to me
as a casual observer to be a bit arbitrary and
almost counterproductive to the end goal. So I mean my
ass would be, you know, whether you have a legitimate
issue with his employer or not, Tigran is not a
part of that release Tigern.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
Allow him to come home, allow him to get the medical.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Treatment he needs, and you can still pursue, you know,
the allegations that you're pursuing through lawful means in your country,
But Tigran has nothing to do with this.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Send him home.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
What do you think is the end goal here on
the Nigeria side.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
You know, I don't know. I really don't.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
I don't have enough understanding of what the goal is.
I mean, I've tried to keep track of some of
the court hearings. It doesn't seem to be much progress
on the legal side. So I really struggle to understand
what the end goal is.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Yeah, I think we're all trying to figure that out
with this show. We're hoping that at some point Tigrin
will get word of it, we'll be able to hear it.
If you could speak to Tigrin, if he was you know,
if he's able to listen to this somehow, what would
you say to him?
Speaker 3 (39:20):
I mean, I tell him stay strong, you know, I
know it's difficult. You're in a tough spot. Stay strong.
You got a lot of people back here rooting for you,
pulling for you, doing what they can to raise awareness,
to push you know, those in power, to do what
can be done from from a legal standpoint, from a
executive branch, legislative branch standpoint. You know, I've attended part
(39:44):
of my role. I attend lots of different crypto conferences,
and every time tigrant.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
Is the subject of discussion.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
So the industry is certainly paying attention Tiger, and they're
doing what they can. The government is certainly paying attention,
and you know, just stay strong, and we really want
him home as soon as possible, back home.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
With his family.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Matt, you share the same background professionally as tea room.
So how does all this make you feel for the
work that you're doing.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
You know, it's a little bit inspired, some nervousness, to
be honest.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
You know, I traveled quite a bit, probably even more
places than Tigrin has, both professionally and personally. You know,
I always thought that if something were to happen, you know,
the cavalryes there, you know, the Team America, they'll come
help you out. And you know, I think I've learned
a lot since this incident kind of what that actually means.
Speaker 4 (40:34):
You know, I can relate a story.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
I was in a former Soviet Republic a few months
ago for work, very different circumstances. I was a guest
of the government doing some training, but there was civil
unrest going on at the time, and I remember sitting
in my hotel room watching this occur on the street
in front of my hotel, and the first thing that
popped in my head is Tigran situation because at the time,
you know, this was early on in his detention, and
(40:55):
I just had that kind of pit in my feeling.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
Of what would happen to me?
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Would I have access to diplomatic help or consular support,
like would the government be able to help me out? Again,
different circumstances, But I think this incident kind of really
made me, you know, want to appreciate, you know, being
an American citizen obviously all the benefits to come with it,
but also you know, thinking twice a little bit about
well where do I travel, and you know, are there
(41:20):
certain places that I could be you know, arbitrarily detained
or you know, harassed just because of what I do
for a living or what.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
I used to do.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah, I think that's why a lot of us see
we see ourselves in in his situation, especially those of
us who've you know, worked for the government, worked in
law enforcement, or even in national security. His situation really
hits home. So, Matt, what should the average just crypto
investor know about the relevance of tigrin.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
I think what's probably not really known is Tigrint and
you know, our colleagues really kind of helped bring trust
and transparency to crypto. When it first came out, you know,
over a decade ago, I think there was a belief
that it was a niche technology for hobbyists, and you know,
clearly some of the criminal element took advantage of it
early with dark net markets like silk Road and Alphabet.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
But when you look back at a lot of.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
The investigative work that Tigeran worked on, the investigations, the
ability to trace transactions, the methodology used by law enforcement
to do this type of work, and the cases that
have been brought, I think it really has pushed the
industry into a place where it's much more transparent, brought
more trust, and it really has helped promote kind of
(42:38):
the illicit uses of crypto. You see a massive growth
in retail adoption, institutional adoption. You see players in the
trad five space that a few years ago no one
would expect that are now launching, you know, crypto ETFs
and crypto trading platforms within in their larger customer base.
So I think it's it's probably not known to the
(42:59):
average but a lot of the work that Tieger did,
you know, both as a special agent and later as
a compliance officer, really kind of helped enable a lot
of this growth.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
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Crypto for Innovation dot org to get in touch and
join our next workshop. After his decade long stint in
public service at the IRSCI, Tigrin Gambarian joined the private
sector to work at Binance, the largest cryptocurrency exchange in
the world. He's the head of financial crime compliance, which
is why he made his way to Nigeria in February
(46:26):
of this year in an effort to resolve existing issues
between his company and the country's government. Of course, Tigrant
remains in Nigeria under unjust circumstances to this day. So
how is Binance assisting in the effort to bring Tigrin home.
Noah Perlman is the chief compliance officer for Binance, and
(46:46):
he offered some insight. Why don't we start with Tigrin
and Binance. Can you tell us why did Finance hire Tigrin?
Speaker 5 (46:57):
Sure? So, Tigrin Gambarian action. He predates my arrival at Binance,
and actually it's one of the reasons that I'll come
to it in a second, But the fact that he
was working at Finance was one of the reasons that
gave me confidence to actually join Binance, that Finance was
a company committed to doing the right thing in the
financial crime space. And so let me give you a
(47:18):
little background. T Gring a variant former IRS Criminal Investigation
federal agent, actually sort of legendary in sort of the
crypto investigative world. There's actually a book written by Andy Greenberg,
Tracers in the Dark. Tigrian is featured heavily in there,
and he's involved in some of the most important crypto
cases to date, including sort of the corrupt agent involved
(47:41):
in Silk Road and many other cases. And so when Binance,
we call it internally Binance two point zero, when Bynance
sort of turned the page and decided to get really
serious about compliance and financial crime compliance in particular, they
made a number of investments in personnel and talent and
hire such as Tiger Gambarian was was part of that
(48:05):
investment and part of that sort of turning the page.
So we brought him here again. I said that we
it was before my time, but to run financial crime compliance,
and that's the job he had and currently has.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Well. Tell us about the impact that Tigrin has had
at Binance before this detention.
Speaker 5 (48:25):
Yeah, so, I mean it's just monumental impact. So first
of all, you know, in terms of just his knowledge
and his ability to recruit talent, he sort of operated
almost as a force multiplier. You know, once somebody like
Tigrin with his reputation joins a firm. It's a signal
to the market that hey, this is a serious place.
So in addition to giving like me confidence and others,
(48:46):
he recruited a lot of former federal agents as well
to really beef up our program. And then his connections
in law enforcement. And you know, I would probably say
there's sort of two I mean, probably lots of things,
but two principal buckets of work that were particularly impactful,
that are particularly impactful. So one was just his technical ability,
(49:07):
technical ability to sort of analyze and investigate and sort
of train the folks so that we really sort of
had a robust program, best in class program in terms
of detecting wrongdoing around the world. And then second, his
relationships with law enforcement again globally enabled us to sort
of work collaboratively but also to push back. We're appropriate,
(49:31):
you know, law enforcement, you know, very skill levels. Crypto
is sort of you know, it's an emerging technology and
the investigations can be challenging. And just because we get
a request from law enforcement to seize funds doesn't necessarily
mean that the request is perfect on its face. But
having somebody like Tigran who has the trust of law enforcements,
it enabled him to not I don't even want to
(49:54):
say pushed back, but to work collaborative in law enforcement
to make sure that innocent users were not negatively impacted
and that we can do the right thing both by
law enforcement, by regulators, and importantly our users as well.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
So could you tell us a little bit more about
what that would consist of in terms of t grin
going to another country, you know, Nigeria or otherwise, what
would he be doing in relation to law enforcement locally?
Speaker 5 (50:21):
Part of what he was doing him and his team
would be training law enforcement, keeping dialogues open, and also
working with regulators and governments as well. Both both educate,
keep communication open to make sure that we're all sort
of aligned and where we want to go with crypto.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
No, I'm going to back up a little bit with
this next question because I realized some people may actually
not know. Could you describe for us exactly what is finance?
Speaker 5 (50:49):
Yes, so look, in the simplest terms, Finance is a
crypto exchange. We offer a number of products and a
number of services, but it's at its heart, finance is
an exchange where people can come to buy, sell, and
store their crypto. We are the world's largest exchange by volume,
operating in over one hundred countries. We are also the
(51:13):
most regulated exchange in the world, having nineteen different licenses
and registrations throughout the world. So that's what Finance is.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
So there's the idea that there was a Binance two
point oh, which Tigrin was a part of. Could you
describe for us what was I guess finance one point zero?
Speaker 5 (51:33):
Sure, So, I mean, look that we use that term internally.
But Binance's history, we're seven years old. When Finance started
seven years ago as an exchange, it was founded by
crypto enthusiasts, technical experts, traders. It really was not focused
on compliance, not that that's an excuse, but that just
(51:55):
happens to be how it started. And very quickly it
became almost a victim of its own success. It grew exponentially,
I think within within six months, became profitable. Well we're
right now at over two hundred and twenty million users,
so this speed, I don't want to say unprecedented, but
(52:16):
it's pretty dramatic. But as a result, in the early days,
compliances was not a focus, and at a certain point
the founders realized they did need to get serious about compliance.
And this is what we refer to internally as Finance
two point zero as sort of a turning the page
and look, I don't want to gloss over the fact.
(52:36):
You know, we have paid for our mistakes. Our original
founder CZ stepped down as part of a resolution that
we reached last year with the US government. We paid
substantial fines, but we're you know, while that was very painful,
we were very much focused on the future, on being
a fully compliant, regulated registered exchange and serving our users
(52:58):
across the world.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Before we even get into Tigrin in Nigeria and the arrest,
can you tell us more about Finance's history in Nigeria
in general? What was happening before this past February in
terms of Nigeria and Finance.
Speaker 5 (53:17):
Sure, so, we had had a history of working with
in Nigeria and actually working with Nigerian law enforcement. I
took a look at the stats and I think between
twenty two and twenty three, I think we may have
don't only to the exact number, but over six hundred
law enforcement requests from the Nigerian government in which we
(53:37):
assisted responding to the equivalent of subpoenas helping freeze assets.
So we had sort of a long history of working
collaborative with the Nigerian government and in Nigeria it's an
important market. At a certain point, I believe in twenty
twenty two, there started to be as throughout the world,
sort of emerging regulation and emerging desire to have crypto
(54:01):
companies register and we engage proactively or try to engage
I should say proactively with the Nigerian government to make
sure that we were not running afoul of any regulations
or emerging regulations. And those communications were somewhat stop and start.
We didn't really get a lot of traction there. But
at a certain point, and this is what ultimately led
(54:23):
to his visit, At a certain point there was there
was a desire to have sort of sit down communications
with the Nigerian government, to sign a memorandum understanding and
to really to move the to move the relationship forward
in a in a more regulated way. That was what
led him to come to Nigeria. To go to Nigeria
(54:46):
should say, to attend a couple of hearings. To be
very clear, this was at the Nigerian government's invitation, and
it is you know something that obviously that's why he went.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
Can you describe for us what happened with Tigrin in
Nigeria at the beginning of this year.
Speaker 5 (55:05):
So, yeah, So there were a couple of visits, so
again at the Nigerian government's invitation Tigrin. These were conversations
that began sort of into November December of twenty twenty
three for ultimately a meeting that was set, an initial
meeting that was set in January of twenty twenty four.
Chiegrin came to that meeting. There was some back and forth.
(55:31):
Ultimately he left that meeting with no resolution. There were
some indications during that time that there may have been
I don't want to say hostilities, but that the meeting
was less collaborative than one would expect given that we
were invited there, and there were allegations raised at that
(55:52):
time that Finance may have had some historical violations of
Nigerian laws. One thing that should be very clear is,
as part of Binance two point zero, we are very
much of the view that if we have made historic
mistakes and there's evidence of that, we are interested in
resolving them. We've demonstrated that with the United States and
(56:15):
with other countries around the world, and so when Nigeria
indicated that there may have been violations of their rules
and their laws. This is something we wanted to engage
with them. We didn't just want to pick their word
for it. But on the other hand, if there's evidence
that we may have violated something, that's something we want
to do, engage with and resolve. Tigran. As part of
(56:36):
a subsequent meeting that occurred in February of this year,
Tigran was invited back to Nigeria again to participate in
some meetings to discuss both collaboration and also to answer
potential about potential allegations of wrongdoing in the past. It
(56:56):
was at the conclusion of one of these meetings in
which the night year in government detained him and said
he wasn't free to leave. That's over two hundred days ago.
He has been detained in Nigeria.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
What were they saying that they were upset about?
Speaker 5 (57:16):
So Finance and Tigrin were both charged with two different charges.
One was tax evasion and one was money laundering. I
believe the tax evasion charge against Tigran has subsequently been dropped.
But so there's sort of two buckets of criminal charges.
I mean to me to us as a company. What's
(57:36):
unfathomable is the fact that Tigrin, who as look as
important as he is to our program, Let's be honest,
he's a mid level employee. He's not an officer of
the company. He doesn't exercise decision making power in any
meaningful way over the direction of the company tax policy.
To detain him is completely unwarranted and unnecessary. And one
(57:59):
of the things that we've what I've continued to try
and articulate is that we have a track record of resolving.
We will resolve. They don't need to hold Tigrin as
a ransdom is leveraged as a bargaining chip in order
to get us to the table. We want to talk.
If there's evidence something wrongdoing, let's see it, let's talk
about it, and let's resolve it. But we've yet to
(58:21):
see that.
Speaker 1 (58:22):
So getting to the detention, exactly, how did you find
out and what happened when they arrested him.
Speaker 5 (58:31):
Yeah, it's actually yeah, I mean, just reliving it is
pretty painful. So prior to his detention, I was in
real time communication with him. We were in real time
communication with him. I was asking how the hearings were going,
and at a certain point. Actually the morning, the morning session,
he reported back, we went pretty positively. At some point
(58:53):
in the afternoon, I received message that things have taken
a more adversarial turn. As point, I did get a
message from him to call the embassy. He reported that
he looked like he was being detained. So that happened
in real time, and obviously you can imagine, you know,
we sort of went into overdrive trying to figure out
exactly what happened, where he was, how to get in communication,
(59:17):
et cetera, notifying the embassy. And again that's you know,
that's some two hundred odd days ago.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
Are you able to communicate with him in his situation?
Speaker 5 (59:27):
We have, We can communicate thro him through official channels
he does. You know, we do have lawyers. It's not
real time obviously, and it's not you know, it's not ideal,
but you know, we do from time to time, were
able to communicate, to get messages from him, you know,
through those channels.
Speaker 1 (59:44):
And what has been the communication like with Nigerian officials
and how constant is it.
Speaker 5 (59:50):
Look, I can't really get into sort of the details
of that on a specific level. What I can say
is that you know, the two messages. The two sort
of over our messages that we continue to sort of
push publicly privately is one, we're committed to resolving, so
let's get to the table and talk and figure out
how we can resolve. And of course two, and more importantly,
(01:00:12):
is you gotta let Tigrin out. He does you know,
he serves no purpose. He's a mid level guy. And
this is really sort of the inequities here are really tremendous.
By holding them, how.
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Have other employees responded?
Speaker 5 (01:00:27):
On a personal level, It's the most challenging experience I've
ever had as a manager or as a colleague, to
have a good friend, well respected colleague detained unjustly like
this ways on me, and I know it ways on
the entire company in a in a meaningful way.
Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Uh.
Speaker 5 (01:00:47):
There is definitely a feeling of, you know, as you
can imagine helplessness. I mean, there's there's little we can
actually do as employees other than sort of, uh, you know,
keep our focus on this and and work as hard
as we can, uh, you know, to sort of keep
keep him in the news, uh, and to keep the
pressure on and to keep the dialogue open with Nigeria
(01:01:09):
so we can get we can get to some resolution here.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
What about the broader crypto community. What sort of message
would you like to send to the crypto community about
tigrant situation?
Speaker 5 (01:01:19):
So just you know, keeping you know, keeping him front
and center. I mean, look, you know, it's on a
practical level, Uh. It unfortunately serves as sort of a
wake up call in a warning too crypto executives, I
mean not just crypto really any executive, but certainly crypto
executives that this is a possibility, and certainly anybody traveling
(01:01:42):
to a jurisdiction which may be adverse to crypto ort
to make sure that they're being very thoughtful about that
and that the security that they thought through that you know,
one of the messages that we got that I that
I received from Tigern early.
Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
On on.
Speaker 5 (01:02:02):
Was a desire not to be forgotten. He communicated, you know,
he's sitting there in prison, he knows life goes on,
and his sort of admonition was, you know, don't forget
about me. And it's one of the reasons why it
is a standing agenda item. At every meeting I run,
(01:02:24):
the first bullet point is update on Tigrin, even if
I don't have one, because I think it's important that
we don't lose that muscle memory that our colleague is
sitting in Kuja prison in Nigeria while life goes on.
And so I guess my my plead to the rest
of the crypto community is the same, is to continue
to talk about this, to publicize it, to think about it.
(01:02:47):
And the crypto community has rallied'm uh, there's been a
tremendous amount of support. Tigran is you know, as I
said before, incredibly respected in the law enforcement community, in
the crypto community, so there's no shortage of people who
are rallying around the cause. And I'm personally in finances
as a company, grateful for that support.
Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
No, is there anything else that you'd like to convey
about Tigrin's situation.
Speaker 5 (01:03:13):
It's heartbreaking for him, you know, he's incredibly strong. Some
of the message we get back, even some of his
humors still comes through, which is just remarkable. But this
is taking a terrible toll on him, on his family,
and I'm grateful for you giving me the opportunity to
talk about it and for you guys exploring his case.
(01:03:35):
It's really important and we're appreciative.
Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
Tigrin Gambarian's imprisonment is simply heartbreaking, as noted so painfully
by Tigren's wife, Yuki, what happened to him could happen
to any of us. The greed of corruption doesn't care
who it ensnares. Tigrin's detention is a cautionary tale to
those who are fighting financial crime. It's my hope that
(01:04:01):
by sharing his story, we can build pressure within the
United States and in Nigeria to get him released. Please
share these episodes with your circle so that we can
make sure Tigrin isn't forgotten. We must bring Tigrin home.
I'm Yaya Jata Finussi. This is designated on the Illicit
(01:04:23):
Edge Network.
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