March 2, 2023 • 53 mins
Meet Academy Award nominated documentarian Julie Cohen. Julie’s revelationary body of work has helped the world discover divine truths in films like RBG (2018), My Name Is Pauli Murray (2021) and The Sturgeon Queens (2014). Julie’s artistic craft adds a unique dimension that helps society challenge assumptions with dialogues about passionate pursuits of dreams, love and resilience that instill hope for a better tomorrow.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
I couldn't be more excited to welcome Academy
Award nominated documentarian,Julie Cohen. Julie's
Revelationary Body of Work hashelped the world discover
divine truths. For example, oneof my favorites is R B G , the
documentary about Ruth BaderGinsburg, or the Sturgeon
Queens American veteran Julia.
(00:25):
And now one of the mostinspiring stories I have seen
about building resilience isGabby Gifford won't back down.
Julie , your work has inspiredso much of my personal
exploration and self discovery. You have this innate ability
to immortalize people's storieson film, bringing really
(00:45):
special revelations to us all.
So where does your story begin?
Well , my story begins in theDC suburbs , uh, falls Church,
Virginia. Um , I guess my storybegins in , uh, in Washington
DC where I was born at , uh,George Washington University
Hospital. But , um, my , uh,childhood was in the Virginia
(01:07):
suburbs , um, where I grew upwith , uh, mom and dad and my
brother , um, went to the great, uh, Fairfax County Public
Schools. Um, I feel like I hadthe nice benefit of growing up
in a community where I had afairly, like I could , you know
(01:30):
, everyone , kind of peopleknowing each other. I wasn't
one of those families thatmoved around a lot, so I really
knew my elementary school andthen junior high school and
high school , uh, friends,quite , uh, quite classmates
quite, quite well. And uh, that, that's kind of it. I mean, I
have, suburbs are very much onmy mind cuz I've been a city
(01:51):
girl for most of my adult life.
But my husband and I moved toBloomfield New Jersey two weeks
ago. Uh, so that feels like asomewhat of a return. I hear
you. I hear you. I , you knowwhat , I grew up in San
Antonio, Texas, and , um, andSan San Antonio outside of the
downtown area is very much likeone big sprawling suburb. Um, a
(02:13):
part of that growing up, youknow . Where was it that you
found your love for film ?
Sorry, filmmaking or evendocumentaries? Yeah. I can't
say I really f that that wasn'tsomething that I developed in,
in childhood. I certainly lovedmovies from the very start and
, uh, was a big reader. And Ithink that , uh, there's more
(02:36):
of a connection between booksand documentaries than most
people think. I actually liketo start the making of every
documentary by reading onereally good related book , uh,
just to get some grounding inone subject matter, sometimes
more than one. But I think,like, I think reading is not
kind of enough of a discussedpart of the filmmaking , uh,
(03:00):
process. Um, you know, writingtoo. I think writing and
filmmaking are so closelyconnected, and I certainly know
some filmmakers who complainabout all of the writing you
have to do at the beginning ofthe process, like writing
treatments, writing funding,proposals. I actually find that
part of the process extremelyuseful. The only way to gather
(03:24):
your thoughts in a deep way isto write it down rather than,
you know, it's just a differentkind of thinking than the off
thec cuff thinking that you dowhen you're pitching something
verbally. So , um, I alwayswelcome the opportunity and
when I'm working withexecutives on a project, I
often offer to write them upmemos every, you know, month or
(03:46):
so, letting them know whatprogress we're making and what
, you know, what we've beenfilming, what we're working on
with the structure and stuff.
Because I find it a reallyhelpful way to organize my own
thinking . I, I , that's , Ilove that because I think
you're absolutely right. It's ,um, not just a part of that
research process, right? It'sthe , the reading piece of
this. But I've always foundthat I , um, often feel like I,
(04:07):
my, my own writing isinfluenced and gets better the
more I read. There is thisinteresting symbiotic thing
that goes on, I think, in ourbrains that we don't really
capture , uh, about thatimportance of the reading and
then trying to , um, relay thatinto something new or an idea
as a kid. So did you find, didyou find that as a kid is part
(04:29):
of that reading? You know, wasit something kind of that came
naturally to you, or what werethe kinds of stories that you,
you ended up really loving? Hmm. I loved all kinds of stories,
but I do, I am , I'm an animallover, so I did love some
animal stories, watershed down.
I don't know if that's a bookthat modern day younger readers
are gonna be familiar with ,but it's like a really
(04:50):
interesting intense book aboutlike a war warring Warrens of
rabbits. It was a book thatlike, just completely entranced
me as a , as a kid. Um, there'sa lot of, there's like action
and adventure and romance, butit's all rabbits. Um , there's
some, there's actually a fairamount of violence in it . Um ,
but , uh, it's a , just areally spectacular story and
(05:11):
one that I remember being ,being , uh, really engrossed in
as a kid. I also loved and readseveral times at different
phases of my life, starting insort of , uh, late childhood ,
uh, 1984, the George Orwell ,uh, future Dystopia book. And I
think there's something reallyimportant for storytellers in
(05:33):
that book because it's a bookthat you can connect with on
all kinds of levels. I firstread it when I was 12, even
though it has sort of maturethemes, but my family had this
little thing we did where wewould do, we had like a family
book group, like this wasbefore book groups were a
thing, but when we would go onvacation, we would have , we ,
my parents would pick out booksand then my dad would read it,
(05:55):
then my mom would read it. Thenmy older brother who was two
years older than I would, wouldread it and then I would read
it. And that , that was how Ifirst read 1984. And when I
read it as a kid, I was sort offollowing some very broad
, some very broadthemes. You know, it's kind of
a romance story. I got thatpart. There's some like mean,
you know, there's good guys andbad guys. I got that. Then I
(06:16):
had to read it like as a seniorin high school for a class and
sort of got some other themes.
And then I read it again as anadult and it's sort of like
each time, like I didn't evennotice the politics when I was
reading it at age 12 , right .
But like, later you get intothat. And I think that's , um,
I think actually the best filmsand documentaries should be
like that. They should work onall kinds of levels. A lot of
(06:37):
people , uh, we , we were mydirecting partner on some of
these films, including RBG andGabby Giffords of , of the ones
you mentioned , um, Betsy West. Like she, and we had not
intended our Rrb g film aboutJustice Ginsburg to be a
children's documentary, but weended , it ended up that like a
lot of kids were going to itlike, and, and really enjoying
(06:59):
it, particularly the littlegirls. Um, it just, and, and we
were like, wow, we didn'treally set out to make a
children's documentary, but wewere so pleased that children
found something to connect within this character in some like,
very deep way that was probablynot so much about the sort of,
you know, legal constitutionalissues that touched on. It had
(07:21):
more to do with the love story.
It had more to do with this.
Like we , we kind of felt likethe little mess of our
character had something to ,you know, this very tiny person
who can , who in a quiet waywas very tough and strong. And
like a lot of kids seem toreally relate to that. I, I
totally agree with you. I think, um, I remember sitting
actually all of the family downto , uh, see it when it came
(07:44):
out. Um, that's the kind offamily we are. We would, you
know, just sit down and say ,what, what is it that this
person gets or this person'slife gets to teach us? Um, and
I remember walking away fromit, it didn't matter. We have
four children and there wasn'tone of them that wasn't, it
didn't have something uniquetaking away from it. And you're
(08:06):
absolutely right. So much ofyour work does that, where do
you think you began to, to honethat craft of being able to
tell people's stories , uh, inthis multidimensional way?
Yeah. Well, you know, in mycase, I mean, first of all, I
appreciate the word craft cuz Ido feel like that's what I am
(08:28):
in the deepest way as like acrafts person . And it's not
like, it's not like you justhave this gush of inspiration
and then everything justmagically happens. Like the
project of any big, like quoteunquote artistic endeavor is
really a craft practice isreally just a matter of a lot
of hard work and a lot ofshaping and reshaping and a lot
(08:48):
of trying something one way.
And if that doesn't work,trying it another way, it's not
like, oh, you just sit backuntil you know, lightning
strikes and then it all comestogether. So , um, but in my
case, I really honed the craftin a pretty , um, you know, one
path for a lot of people intodocumentary film is journalism.
And I was a j broadcastjournalist for a long time. I
(09:12):
did actually, I did some print,I did radio, I did television.
I worked at NBC for a longtime. I was a producer and
writer there. So, you know, Iwas put in a very good position
to have to create a lot ofstories and write a lot of
stories very rapidly cuz that'swhat you have to do in the TV
(09:33):
business. And it actuallyhelped, it helped break some of
the habits where you get sortof stuck. Like if something is
gonna be on television nextweek, you can't really, you
can't really get stuck. Youhave to move forward. And I
actually often find that theproduct that you would create
in two weeks, if you have twoweeks is probably the same. Is
is it clo is maybe close to theproduct you would create in
(09:56):
eight weeks if you have thatamount , if you have
that amount of time. So it was,it was actually very helpful to
me to have a backgroundprofessionally where I was
forced to think and write andstructure stories very quickly.
And then that kind of openedthe door to doing , um, things
where there's a little moretime to work on it. Gotcha. In
(10:17):
doing some of my research fortoday's , uh, conversation, I
noticed you also worked atcourt TV and I began to
thinking like , Hmm , do I seethis thread on that legal piece
here? Because I also noticedthat you have a master's , am I
correct in law? Yes. Um, yeah,so those things are all
connected, certainly and areconnected to some of the work
(10:38):
that I've done more recently.
Um, my dad is a lawyer and okay, one of those lawyers who
actually really enjoys the law.
Like he , um, he representedlabor unions and had lots of
really interesting cases, did alot of kind of appellate law
stuff. And unlike, it wasn'tuntil, it wasn't until I was
(10:58):
already a grownup that Istarted to understand that lot
of lawyers really dislikedtheir jobs cuz my dad seemed to
love being a lawyer. And , ummm-hmm .
definitely always talked aboutit very positively. So I had ,
um, you know, positiveassociations , uh, with the
law. Um, in my earlyjournalistic career, I found
that I really enjoyed coveringtrials. I was a news reporter
(11:23):
for a radio station for threeyears , um, in New York. And
that job entails, like,basically every morning you're
getting assigned somethingdifferent. It's like stuff's
going on in the city. They'relike, oh , you do this, do
that. You get assigned to , todifferent things. And I really
found that my favorite storieswere covering criminal trials
at that point. There were somevery, this was like in the
(11:43):
early 1990s, and there weresome very high profile trials.
There was a racially motivatedmurder , um, that led to a case
that was widely known as theBensonhurst case. A very mm-hmm
. tragic story ofa black teenager who had gone
(12:04):
into a white neighborhood to ,um, rent, to , to , to buy a
used car that had beenadvertised. A classified a just
like a completely randomsituation. Like he, he , you
know, went to buy a car, heshows up , uh, in this
neighborhood and a group ofwhite guys who are mistaking
(12:26):
him for someone else who wasdating somebody's girlfriend or
whatever , um, very , uh, youknow, brutally , uh, killed
him. That led to an extremelycontentious , um, not just a
trial, but a set of trialsbecause a number of this white
gang who had, who had committedthe crime , um, were tried
separately. So there were anumber of trials. Um , I was a
(12:49):
radio reporter covering that,and I found it very
interesting. It was kind of alittle bit more interesting
than some of the other storiesthat you're sort of thrown in
for a day. You don't reallyunderstand it. I was like, you
know, that these trials werelasting three or four weeks and
when you went every day andlistened to all the testimony
or doing reports, you, I feltlike you could sort of get a
little bit of a deeper, deepersense of things. And I just
(13:12):
really, you know, I reallyfound , um, uh, criminal, you
know, criminal law, just apretty interesting subject for
journalistic coverage. Andthat's what led me when , uh,
the network that later becamecourt TV that much later became
something else called True tv.
But when court TV started up inthe early nineties, I actually
(13:34):
wrote to the head of it sayinglike, oh, I, you know, I hear
you're starting this networkabout trials. Like, I , I love
trials. Like I love covering,I've been a journalist, I love
covering trials, like, can Icome work for you? And it was a
startup , so they had somepositions for junior level
people, and I got a juniorlevel job there and kind of
worked my way up to being, tobeing a producer there and
(13:55):
ultimately starting a show thatthey did about the Supreme
Court. So , um, okay . And thenthat led me to the, the law
school program that I didwasn't for people who wanted to
be lawyers, it was forjournalists who wanted a real
background in the law. So Iwent and I , I left court TV
thinking that like, if I'mgonna try to market myself as a
(14:16):
journalist who has a specialtyin law, I should maybe get some
formal education. And I wentand did this, this yearlong
master's program. Um, and thenI went right from there to NBC
where they were in fact , um,expanding their coverage of, of
criminal trials. Wow. That's a,that's a pretty amazing
transition. And it's also kindof a scary thing to leave a
(14:37):
what feels like a buddingcareer at a startup , um, to ,
uh, you know, to go back tobeing a student. Uh, and what
did you see in the , some ofthe risks? Or was it just
natural like, wait, if I reallywanna do this and I wanna do it
well, I I better go sharpenthis muscle I have between my
ears? Yeah. You know, the, the,the program that I went to was
(15:00):
a very specific program forpeople in that, in, in my
position. It wasn't like theywere, it wasn't like, wow,
that's weird to go to lawschool. It was like, we have ,
we have this program for peoplethat are already journalists
that want some background inthe law. There was a foundation
that funded it, so it wasn'tlike, I , I didn't need to pay
(15:21):
the very expensive , um, youknow, lost school fees. It was
just a , it was just a yearthrough through this program.
And I thought I would probablycome out of it in a better
situation than just having hadmy job at court tv. Um, so I
didn't think that much aboutthe rest when I was doing it. I
loved doing it. It was reallyfun to go back to school as a
(15:43):
32 year old. I feel like I gotmore out of that year of school
than any other schooling I didbecause I was kind of more
ready to just, I was reallythere to learn. It wasn't, it
was just a little differentthan my, my previous , uh,
academic experiences. So Iliked that a lot. But , um, but
truthfully, like you say, whatwere the risk at , I was like ,
oh , there's no risk . Buttruthfully, then when I got
(16:03):
out, it did take me , uh, aboutfour or five months to get a ,
it's not like I got , and Iactually didn't even get a job.
What I got at NBC initially wassome freelance assignments,
which ultimately worked theirway into a job. So it did turn
out to be risky, but I was notthinking about that. Um, you
know, I was not thinking too,too heavily about that , um, at
(16:27):
the time. Gotcha. Um , youknow, we talked a little bit
about , uh, really your collegeformation of years . What took
you, like, what was the thingthat went , gosh, journalism
and , and , uh, and writing ,uh, is potentially a path. Like
what was it that inspired youto take that path amongst all
the paths that were availableto us? Yeah , I mean , we , you
(16:49):
and I are, I, I feel like wemight be of the same , uh, age
genre. And so I would say thatif we were to think about it,
our moms probably had lesseropportunity to like select from
an array of career paths,right? And I often think about
it as like, wow, I, we couldhave been anything. Yes. Yeah .
(17:12):
So, absolutely. My momcertainly was in the generation
where women's career paths werereally constrained, you know,
and the , in fact, my mom, whenshe came out of college had an
internship at the labordepartment and, you know, and
then when she, you know, shemarried my dad and that was all
going great. And then when shegot pregnant with my brother,
it was like, okay, that's, youknow, like, that's it. Like, so
(17:33):
okay, that's basically the endof your career. Like, everyone
understood that. And while Idon't think she mi I don't
think she minded that hugely atthe time , um, because it was
so accepted and she did, shewasn't going into motherhood in
a resentful way. She reallyparticularly seemed to enjoy
having little kids. But like,ultimately I think it really
(17:55):
made her angry. Nowinterestingly, she became an
artist when, when , um, she,although she hadn't had any
artistic training at all whenshe was pregnant with my
brother, she started art as ahobby. She got more and more
into it and she became anartist , uh, professionally.
But that said, like later inlife she would talk about how
her father, who had been alawyer, had told her that she
(18:16):
could, she would be a reallygood lawyer and like, it, like
she wouldn't have said it thisway, she's passed away now. So
I'm speaking of her , shewouldn't have said this way ,
but I think she really, shereally resented , um, the lack
of opportunities for women. AndI will say that she had a very
strong sense of thepossibilities for me being
(18:37):
different and wanting me toexplore that. And one good ,
um, example of that. So when Iwas in high school , um, one of
the one elective course youcould take was typing. And I
wanted to take typing cause Ithought it'd be useful for
like, you know, at that time ,you know, you had to type all
your papers and whatever, it'sbefore laptops, right ? But
(18:58):
they're like , they're alltypewriters, young people , us
explaining it to you. I , IBMelectric was what I got to work
on . Exactly. So , um, mymother vetoed my taking, typing
in high school. Okay . Shesaid, no, no, no. If you like,
I don't want you to be asecretary. Like you shouldn't
learn to type now. Actuallythis was a little ridiculous
(19:19):
cuz there's all kinds ofreasons to me . Like I, you
know, like I need , I , while Ididn't work as a secretary, nor
did I have a secretary, soactually I do need to type and,
you know , in a period before Iwent to, I went to a graduate
program in journalism at a ,like, early soon after college.
And there was actually arequirement that you typed 40
words a minute and I didn'tknow how to type to get in. So
(19:40):
I actually took a summer classat a secretarial school to
learn to, cuz I'm like, okay ,I guess I need to type. And I
actually, I like typing anyway.
But like, she really, my momreally did , um, want me to be
a professional person. Gotcha.
And so, ha you know, in termsof that exploration of kind of
that early, what helped you, Ialways think about this is that
(20:04):
often in those years that youare going into college, that
you don't necessarily have anidea. You may have a dream, but
maybe not necessarilyunderstand the path that might
be in front of you. Yeah. Ididn't have a clue, I would
say. Um, and in terms ofgetting into journalism, well,
first of all, I'll say that mymaternal, no, my paternal
(20:25):
grandfather, my dad's fatherwas a newspaper reporter. He
was a sports writer for the NewYork Post. Um, and that was
always presented to us ashaving been like a pretty cool
career. Like, he didn't make alot of money, but he knew like,
(20:46):
he like knew the New YorkGiants and he had like great
Knicks tickets and he had like,we got Billie Jean King's
autograph. Like, like it wassort of, and you know, going to
sports events with him in thepress box was like incredible.
It's like, what? And he, youknow, he, he was what you might
think a , um, a, you know, NewYork post sports reporter in
(21:09):
the 1960s and seventies mighthave been. He wore a little
hat, he smoked a cigar. Um , he was like a really, he
was like a really fun, kind ofsalty old , lovely Jewish man.
I don't know . He, he, hereally was sort of a character
. So I had that view ofjournalism , um, but not , you
(21:30):
know, but really not much else.
And , um, I was at a point inmy life where I thought like,
oh, maybe I should go tograduate school in something.
And really the impetus forgoing to journalism school was
how much I wanted to move toNew York. And I, I went to
Columbia, which is in New York.
I just like, was like, oh, Ishould go to New York .
(21:51):
Like, I, I'm, I'm, I can't saythat I, that these things were
like deeply, deeply thoughtout. But I will say that from
the very first week ofjournalism school, I was like,
oh, this is , this is amazing.
It's a Fanta like what a , whata interesting, I mean, you
know, things have changed a lotand journalism Yeah . That ,
the journalism that exists nowis not what it was in 1989 when
(22:14):
I was studying journalism. Butpart of the, you know, the
program that I was in was, youwere going out there and
writing stories and you got alittle press pass. And , uh,
you know, within my first weekI was sent down to City Hall to
cover a story. And you know,the mayor at that time , who
was Ed Koch at that time, wasgiving a press conference. And
(22:37):
I had my little, you know, as astudent at Columbia, like you
had a little press pass. And Iraised my hand and I asked him
a question and he answered it.
And I was like, thisthe coolest thing in the world.
Like, here I am, like, no ,like I'm this young, tiny
person and like you , you'retelling me I could just go to
city hall and ask the mayor aquestion just because I have a
press pass. Like, this is thecoolest job in the world, most
(23:00):
powerful positions to people toask that question..
That's fantastic. Um, in , inthat journey of kind of taking
you through there , um, whatwere some of the things that
you learned? I mean, obviouslythe , I think there's always
the academic version of school,but to that point around like
the actual practice of what itmeans to be a journalism. Cuz I
(23:20):
think there's, to your pointaround the craft of writing,
right? And the craft offilmmaking is one aspect, but I
also think that there's apractice , uh, that makes you a
, a , a better questioner , uh,a better , uh, interviewer.
What were some of those thingsthat you did that helped , uh,
hone that ? Yeah, I mean, Ithink a big part of it was ,
(23:43):
um, listening. You know, havinga conversation that involves
listening. Not so much having acharted out list of everything
that I wanted to ask, but morejust listening to what the
person was saying and go goingfrom that. And even more today
as a documentary filmmaker,when a lot of what you're doing
(24:04):
is spending time filming andwatching people and like,
trying to not be so nervousabout like, all the things that
can go wrong with your filmingand is the, you know , is the
cinematographer like in theright position. They can be
worrying about all thesedifferent elements that take
(24:24):
you out of the present moment.
But if you're like, watchingvery carefully what your
subjects are doing, you'lllearn all kinds of things about
them, which will lead tointeresting questions and ways
to engage. So, you know, I dothink the , some of the things
(24:44):
that make someone a gooddocumentary filmmaker would be
like the same qualities thatmight make you a good friend.
Like trying to pay attention tosomeone else and listen to what
they have to say and try to setyourself aside for long enough
to look at what theirexperience might be and get
(25:07):
into their mind a little bitand then try to come at it from
that perspective. I love that.
Cause I think that so often ,um, I often think that so many
of us come into the , uh, intothat space sometimes even in
journalism with maybe apredisposition of what the
outcome should be as opposed toenabling the story to go work
(25:31):
really is supposed to go right. Cuz often when you are so
occupied with a point of view,you tend to miss those little
nuggets , um, that make peopleincredibly human or humanize
the story or the subjectmatter. Um , and I think that's
such an important part of, Ithink your work today is that
(25:53):
it's so clear to me that one ofthe gifts you bring to the
table is active listening. Youknow , it isn't , it isn't
passive at all, like it'sactually looking for those
nuggets. Yeah. And I think, butI think a big part of that is
trying to get out of your own ,trying to get out of one's own
nervousness. Like there's kindof a lot to be nervous about
(26:17):
when you're making a film andyou can get so caught up in
everything that could be goingwrong that that makes you not
pay attention to what'sactually happening. And yeah ,
learning to set aside like allthose anxieties that people
have when they're doing what ,what I do and what a lot of
jobs entail, like it's a lot ofit is just like, like, you
(26:40):
know, I've worked as a teacheradvising people making
documentaries also. And I, Ireally think so much of the
process is just the psychologyof it all. Like getting so
worried about it going wrongthat you don't notice what's
hap , that you're not listeningto what's happening or, you
know, in the case of our work,there's so much that you're
filming and people, if you'reworried that it didn't come
(27:04):
out, that that , that you know,what you're filming wasn't
exactly what you were trying toget, then people become like
afraid of their own footage.
And actually delving in andlooking at the footage that's
been shot as soon as possibleis like really key . Because
until you're seeing, you know,until you're forgetting the
expectation of what youpromised, whoever was funding
the film, what it's gonna be,it's , don't worry about that.
(27:27):
Like, the morkey is like, whatam I getting? And like, what
you're getting often is reallygood and you can build a lot
out of it. Well , that'sbeautiful. I think those are
words of b wisdom that I thinkeverybody in who is exploring
this space. You know, so oftenyou get wrapped up in the, the
minutia and as opposed to just, uh, enabling the story to
reveal itself, right? And justlearning that, you know, the ,
(27:50):
the, the first attempt atsomething is really just the
beginning of the process. Andyou can get, I, I had a student
once actually very talented ,uh, young woman who , um,
showed me a rough cut ofsomething, of a piece that she
had created and just said witha really deep despondency.
(28:11):
Like, it's just, you know, it'sjust not what I imagined in my
head that it was gonna be like,I, you know, I had this idea
like, it's just not what Iimagined it's gonna be. And I
said, poppy , her name is Poppy. I feel I have felt that way
every rough cut of every filmI've ever done and I've been
doing this for 25 years. Sodon't worry. Like that's, that
(28:33):
feeling is actually good.
That's the feeling that's gonnapropel you to now make it
better. Yeah, that's the roughpart, correct .
Exactly. That's why they calledit a rough , it's too bad it's
always , look at it this way,it's really too bad that we
don't dream in rough cuts.
Cause it would make sometimesthe so much easier. I guess
that's one way of lowering thebar if you started training in
(28:55):
rough cuts, right ?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
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Speaker 3 (30:01):
Hi, I am Mandy Kramer, the host of The Last
Generation, a podcast aboutprofound conversations between
Holocaust survivors and theirgrandkids. As the grandkid of a
holocaust survivor, I never gotthe chance to have that
conversation, so I wanted toencourage others to do so. This
new season, it's available onall platforms.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Listeners, be sure to check out Julie Cohen's
latest documentary, GabbyGifford Won't Back Down. It's
streaming right now on AmazonPrime Video, apple tv, Redbox
and Roku. Was it, did you feellike it was a natural , uh,
kind of transition from theworld of journalism telling
often 32nd stories, you know,two minute stories, two long
(30:43):
form stories? Well, you knowwhat, I was actually in the
long , long form journalism. Imean , you know, well I did
some shorter stories when I wasin public radio, but when I was
in at nbc I was working forDateline. So I was doing mostly
hour and two hour stories. It'sjust that they were about
murder trials, you know, notthe , and and I will say, I
(31:03):
actually don't think it's acoincidence that since then
I've grabbed in my documentaryindependent work, I've
gravitated towards like muchmore positive subject matter
. Like I like , youknow, pride . The nineties were
rough. I really , nineties wererough. Yeah. I really prefer, I
really prefer, like, you know,and not that I mind what , you
know, I think there can be somevery, you know, tough material
(31:27):
that can make quite a goodstory. But that's for the most
part, I wanna tell stories thathave a lot of love in them .
. Well you'redefinitely doing that now. I, I
just say that , uh, I took anopportunity to go and explore
something as simple I that ,and it's not simple. It is so
rich. The sturgeon of queens,right? That actually had to
(31:48):
take , I had just like, so ,um, that there was just so
speaking of love, so much lovein the craft of , uh, not just
the story of this family that Ibelieve four generations in
this family , um, Russ anddaughters, but, but also like
these nuggets of things that Iloved that you were able to
(32:09):
kind of tease out was what madethem different. You know, the ,
the dad being an early feministto, you know, really this big ,
almost very much a woman ownedand woman run business that,
you know, I think tacticallyyou could say, oh, they , you
know what, you get your bagelsin your locks and there are
really wonderful deli. But inreality when you walk in and
(32:33):
what the story revealed wasthat they , you know, it was
like these little blessings,these little, these little like
love notes to every one oftheir customers. Um, how is it
that you go about picking yoursubjects or your subject
matter? Yeah, I mean, you know,often there's just a threshold
(32:55):
question of is this some , isthis a story you wanna spend a
number of months or years kindof delving, delving into? Um,
and beyond that, it can kind ofgo in all different directions.
Um, you know, it helps if thestory is like not just one
note, if there's like adifferent layer to it. I mean
(33:17):
the, the sturgeon queens, asyou mentioned, has like these,
you know, four , you know, it'sthese generations of, of a , of
a Jewish family. But then therewas this incredibly interesting
twist story starts in 1914, butthen in the seventies , um,
there's the twist of someDominican immigrants to New
(33:37):
York moving, you know, youknow, a new generation of
immigrants moves to town,starts working at the store.
One , uh, one employee inparticular, Herman Vargas,
who's a major uh, character inthe story ends up learning not
only to slice locks , but alsoto speak Yiddish because he
understood that that wouldconnect him to , uh, to the
(33:58):
customers in a way that wasgonna be helpful for his
career. And his family'simmigrant story in the
seventies is so similar to JoelRuss's immigrant story from the
early 19 hundreds. And it justsort of reminds us what brings
us all together and is justkind of unexpected. I also kind
of loved, you know, the, thesome of the edgy, some of the
(34:21):
conflict within in the family,a lot of the arguing ,
I think is all, is all good.
And , um, Julie , that one of ,uh, most of your work, that one
I have to say it felt sofamiliar to me,, and I
don't know , it was like theJewish thing. It was like , for
us, you know, we , we areLatinx Jews, so for us our
language is , you know, isSpanish. But I will tell you
(34:42):
from that it was like, oh waita minute, the things that we
talk about in Spanish, this isthe Yiddish word for them . And
like, I had those connectionsbetween it and, and it was just
, um, uh, it , I don't know ,it felt like such a gift to, to
feel like you got to know thefamily so well. Yeah. Yes. Well
that's, yeah , in some ways Ifeel like that was different
than some projects that I'vedone cuz I often feel like I'm
(35:03):
delving into worlds that arevery new to me. And whereas the
family like just I like feltlike, no , this is subject like
herring . Like these aresubjects I'm very familiar with
. Um, and definitelyfelt , um, felt a connection ,
uh, to, to them. So, you know,but also I was actually
surprised how many fans thatfilm ended up getting who
(35:27):
weren't Jewish. Like, I justdidn't, I didn't really expect
that, but just, I certainly raninto a lot of people who said
that the two sort ofgrandmotherly characters, the
sisters who were at the heartof the story, like reminded
them of people in their ownfamily. And I've very much
absolutely in my, in mydocumentary life gravitated
(35:48):
towards older characters. Ilove interviewing people in
their eighties and nineties. Ithink there's so much , they're
better interview subjects thanyounger people. It was an
opportunity that I didn't havewhen I, you know, when you work
in network news, they're alwaystrying to appeal to the key
demographic, which is 18 to 49.
And the belief is that peoplein that demographic don't want
(36:08):
, like, once anyone turns 50,like nobody wants to hear from
them anymore. Um, my firstproject in my independent
documentary world was somethingI was commissioned to do for
New York Public Television,which was , um, called New York
Goes to War. It was about NewYorkers who served in World War
II and New Yorkers who kind ofserved at home like Rosie the
(36:29):
Riveter type people, like whatNew York was like during World
War ii. And so for thatproject, by definition, I was
interviewing people who were intheir eighties and nineties and
it was just such a revelationcuz they were so, you know,
first of all, people are prettyhonest by that age, just more
honest than, than younger , um,characters. But I also think
(36:49):
the difference wasn't just age,it was also kind of
generational because mm-hmm .
, that was kindof the last opportunity to be
interviewing people who didn'tgrow up with television. Um, oh
wow. And as a result, I mean,one thing I always found,
interestingly when I wasworking for Date Dateline, is
people that are in a Datelinestory all end up talking like
(37:10):
people that are on a Datelinestory, because they've all seen
Dateline , like even the peoplewho like were , are the
murderers. Like you go toprison and you start
interviewing them and theysound and they start sounding
like every other, like they,they kind of know the
conventions of the story andthey'll be like, oh, we had
such a fairy tale wedding.
Like, it's all kind of odd.
Whereas the older people arejust yeah , tended to do
(37:35):
interviews in a much moreindividualistic way and like,
they might say anything. So itjust now on the other, the
other flip side of that is theconnection between my question
and their answer was often not so tight. Like
people would like, not, notthat, you know, I , you know,
(37:56):
was talking to people who weretotally cogent, but like, they
were gonna say what they weregonna say. They'd like to , you
know, like, I like . So themore of the trick was to not
get in their way to let themsay what they wanted to and to
coax and to coax out more whensomething seemed really
fruitful. And as you've seen ina bunch of the films that I've
worked on solo and a bunch ofthe films that I've worked on
(38:16):
with Betsy, we really enjoyinterviewing people in pairs.
Um, because it, just seeing therelationships between people is
like so interesting. And whenyou put two people together in
front of a camera, especiallyif they've known each other for
a long time, you often get areally, something magical
happens that's very differentfrom inter interviewing
individuals. I love thatbecause I think that you, one
(38:39):
of the things you capture , um,and I think is it , you've
captured it in R B G , thesturgeon of Queens , um, and
even in the way that peopletalked about Julia Childs , um,
was there is a, there's thebeauty of hindsight and wisdom
and you just don't have that. I, you know, I'm nearing my, my
(38:59):
fifties and I don't think Ihave enough of it. Julie .
There's like times when it'slike, huh , you know, I can
reflect back on that , but Iwould imagine, I know when
speaking with my mom who was inher seventies, you know,
there's a lot of hindsight inthe wisdom, and I think a part
of it is that you also become alittle bit more comfortable in
yourself and that that filter,I guess maybe this generation's
(39:22):
filter might be the Twitterfilter , um, or the , um, or
even the TikTok filter right,at some point has to come off.
Right. I think there issomething to that. So in this
world of te uh, telling longform stories, what has been ,
(39:44):
um, the thing that you're mostproud of? Well, that's, that's
kind of hard to say. I mean,almost, you know, sometimes
it's really, it's not even theproduct so much as the
connections with the humanbeings that are in the stories.
I mean, you know, our currentfilm about Gabby , Gabby
Giffords , the member ofCongress who was shot in the
(40:06):
brain and had to work her wayback from a coma to a fully
functioning, incrediblyengaging and charismatic and
tough activist , uh, that sheis today. Like, getting to know
her has been amazing. Like,she's just the most, she's just
(40:26):
the most incredible person Ithink I've ever met. And I , I
think that, you know, from whatwe know from people who've
known her for, for much longerthan we have, she was a really
intense and charismatic personbefore she was shot as well.
But she's just like, it's justlike, so, like I don't , so I I
don't even know how to exactlydescribe it, but it's like I'm,
(40:49):
I think we're really proud ofthe film, but I'm also really
proud to be friends with thisincredible person. Um, well, I
, I had to hone in on it . Ithink one of the things that's,
first of all, I have not seenthe Gabby film yet. I am so
excited to, to go and and seeit. I think we're , we're
talking about it's in theatersnow, is that correct? Right .
That's right. Okay . Um, Iremember exactly where I was on
(41:13):
January 8th when that newsflesh came across. And
something about Gabby is , it'ssomeone who, I wouldn't say
that I, you know, overtlypolitical fact , but there was
something about her and her ,um, uh, I would say almost her,
her rise to celebrity wassomething that there was
(41:34):
something special about her andher, her desire for public
service. It wasn't as if shewas going in and she was in the
form of politics. I think thatshe was giving definition and
rise to , um, to public s thepublic service aspect of it. So
on , I remember standing in mylooting room , um, and I on
(41:56):
January 8th and our kids wereout and it was kind of our, our
typical, I wanna say it was aweekend, if I remember
correctly. And I remember thatnews flash coming on. It was
just, it felt like a , a shotthat was aimed at hope. Um ,
because my takeaway from , uh,you know, who she is , uh,
(42:18):
through her acts , uh, and, andher beliefs and why she went
into public service was one ofgiving hope that, that the
world could get betterincrementally. Yeah. And
there's something that we saidthat I think in those nuggets
of your film, you bring thesepeople that are larger than
life often that have theseremarkable stories , um, tell
(42:43):
that you bring them into ourliving rooms or into the, the
theater in such a way that ,um, that friendship that you've
created with them, because Ifelt that way , um, with your
Ruth Bader Ginsburg work wasthat we felt like we knew them.
Yeah, well I think, you know,trying to create a personal,
that personal tone is certainlypart of what we've been doing
(43:06):
with these films. It's in someways, I mean that's why , like
I talk about my journalistictraining being so much a part
of my filmmaking and it is ,but that's a part that's kind
of new that the, you know, Iwill say when I first watched a
cut of the film that , um, wehad created about the New
(43:27):
Yorkers who served in in WorldWar ii , like we had been
working on it in like theselittle tiny chunks, myself and
the editor, and we hadn'treally been watching large
stretches of it and it was atwo hour film and at one point
we sat down and watchedeverything that we had at a
certain point and I just, Ijust like looked at it and I
was like, wow, what I said tothe editor, I was saying , a
(43:48):
great guy named Carrie Soloway. I said, wow, it's so loving
and because like that, like,like that wasn't what I've been
doing at nbc . And I'm like, Ijust, so like , and , and like
I did love these amazing like,you know, 92 year old veterans
, um, like the they their , andlike, what, but what was it
(44:11):
like, I hadn't really set outto make that the center of the
film, but when you watched , Imean one thing that um , that
we did in that film andactually comes up in the Gabby
Gifford people in the GabbyGifford film too , is like ,
uh, letting characters sing.
Um, and for these veterans thatI was having recall what was
(44:32):
sometimes really painful partsof their lives, cuz a number
one of them had been a prisonerof war and one had been shot
kind of severely, but yet theyalso had really fond memories
of, of their service in the waythat, you know, veterans of
that war in particular , uh,due , they were proud of the
role they had played instopping something horrible as
(44:53):
they should be. And part of theprocess of them recalling was
like, I just have them singsongs to the camera of like
that they, that they loved andthey have these beautiful
voices and they're singing andI just, I just felt like, you
know, like, wow, I like thatyou can sort of feel that
there's some love there whenyou're training to be a
(45:15):
journalist. They don't reallytell you you should try to
create work that's loving. Butlike, I'm like, that's kind of
how I want things to be goingforward. Like, you know , you
get, you go through life andlike, there's all kinds of
phases to it, but like I amalso, the characters were older
at a time that I was sort ofgetting heavily into middle age
(45:37):
and thinking about that. Youknow, there had, this was also
at the early stages of filmingin high definition, you know,
where the, you were not even 4Kyet, although now we film in
4k, right ? The first time wehad gone from standard
definition to high definitionand there had been a fear,
particularly in the broadcastnews world, but there , but ,
(45:57):
but all throughout the industryof people that make real, that
visual stuff of real people,there had been been this fear ,
oh , high definition's gonna beterrible cuz everybody's gonna
look terrible. Like if you'renot 23, you're gonna look like
crap. You're gonna see thelines, you're gonna see. And
that, that , uh, world War IIpiece was the first thing I'd
done in high death and it waslike the opposite. You saw the
(46:20):
people's wrinkles, but theywere beautiful. Like you saw,
like, you just saw like thereal beauty of the people.
Like, and you know, just sortof allowing that to come
through seems, seems like areally worthy thing. It's
interesting how those, each oneof those, those lines, we say
(46:41):
wrinkles, but Right . Each oneof those lines probably has a
story behind it altogether. AndI think that's a , I think
that's a really interestinginsight into , um, all the
things that we tend to fight, , toying , things that
we tend to fight. Right . Um ,you know, that we're often
(47:02):
fighting the, the storytellingor even the wisdom that comes
with Right . What it means tohave lived that long. Yes.
Right. No, it really, it it ,it made really changed my own
view of aging to like have thatexperience and that point I was
like , oh no . I was like, well, although I was like, okay,
well I'm in this uncomfortablemiddle period, but like, gimme
(47:22):
a couple decades and then likewhen I'm 80 I'm gonna look ,
I'll look really cute again .
So wait , we have to , I thinkthat we have to redefine, like
I think we're really cute inthis middle age too. I'm, I'm
falling in love with my elevens, which is fine . Um ,
(47:43):
so, you know , what were someof the barriers that you've
kind had to overcome throughoutyour career? Cause we all, like
none of this happens overnight.
Um , it doesn't have , you know, making a film , uh, about,
you know, one of our mostbeloved , uh, Supreme Court
justices or American veteran. Ihave to say that that one also
(48:07):
, um, was an eye-opening, youknow, beautiful story again
about love , uh, clearly the ,the two , uh, the the love but
the , you know, what it meantfor an American veteran , um,
to be blown up in Afghanistanand to come home and refined
life. Right. Um, in , in suchan inspiring way. None of that
(48:31):
is easy. What are some of thehurdles that you've had to
overcome , um, to tell thesestories? Yeah, I mean the
hurdles are you often, youknow, in the case of American
veteran, like getting thefunding to, to do the story or
you know, or even not gettingfully funded but just going ,
(48:53):
uh, you know, I think inearlier stages because of R B G
being more of a commercialsuccess that sort of opened the
door to more recent thingsbeing easier to get funding. Um
, you know, just honestly. But,but in, you know, just a few
years ago the , the issue wasreally figuring out how I could
(49:19):
do some things that did bringin an income even while I was
doing some projects that seemedreally important to do, but
that I understood weren't gonnabe big money makers . And, you
know, and because they're notthat commercial, it's gonna be
a challenge to get them funded.
And I just kind of chose atthat point to try to split my
(49:40):
life and my projects to try tohave a c do a certain amount of
work that was just meant togenerate some income that could
help to do the projects thatwere kind of like more my
dreams to do. Gotcha . Can yougimme some examples of the ,
the , it's because there's ,there's always that balance and
it's interesting cuz it's Oh,sure. I find that also in my
own work. So Yeah. You know,when I left NBC and I did it
(50:05):
like by choice and veryconsciously, like I understood
that I was about to go into asituation where I wasn't gonna
have the same stability. I'mfortunate to be married to a
lovely man who has a job andhas health insurance for us
both. And I understand that noteveryone has that same good. I
mean, that's one oflike where there's a myriad of
(50:27):
ways in which I'm a privilegedperson and that's one of them .
So, you know, but I had a jobfor quite, for quite a while
and that's good and had helpedme save some money. And then
when I left , um, nbc um, alongwith the documentary stuff I
was also doing , um, you know ,I did a lot of like public
relations videos. I made avideo for , uh, the hospital
(50:50):
for special surgery, like a ,like a 30 minute film about
their history. It was quiteinteresting. It was done under,
they commissioned me to do it.
They paid me to do it. Like,like that's how I was making a
living. I , I also did, I alsodid sturgeon queens cause I
wanted to do it, but like, Iwas making my living making ,
uh, doing like public relationsvideos and also doing just
other commissioned projects for, I did a lot of , um, programs
(51:13):
for, for New York p b s thatjust like a a half hour project
would come up and they wouldask me whether I would, whether
I would do it. And if I wasavailable, I'd get, you know,
they would, I'd get paid to dothat. Julie, thank you so much
for coming here today andsharing your story with our
listeners who are change makersin their own right. You see,
(51:36):
the power to dream comes fromthe ability to see an interest
or yourself or a passion in howsomebody else has carved a path
for you. So I wanna personallythank you Julie for carving
that path for these futurechange makers . Listeners, this
is my dare to you. I want youto take these revelations
(51:58):
revealed in this episode anddare to design an inclusive and
equitable future today.
Designed by.show is written andproduced by the design Core at
Aurora 21 Studios podcastproducer, audio engineer, and
original music by RachelBickley, commercial Voice
Talent by Angelo. And I'm yourhost, Joanna Pena . Bickley .
I couldn't be more excited to welcome Academy
Award nominated documentarian,Julie Cohen. Julie's
Revelationary Body of Work hashelped the world discover
divine truths. For example, oneof my favorites is R B G , the
documentary about Ruth BaderGinsburg, or the Sturgeon
Queens American veteran Julia.
(00:25):
And now one of the mostinspiring stories I have seen
about building resilience isGabby Gifford won't back down.
Julie , your work has inspiredso much of my personal
exploration and self discovery. You have this innate ability
to immortalize people's storieson film, bringing really
(00:45):
special revelations to us all.
So where does your story begin?
Well , my story begins in theDC suburbs , uh, falls Church,
Virginia. Um , I guess my storybegins in , uh, in Washington
DC where I was born at , uh,George Washington University
Hospital. But , um, my , uh,childhood was in the Virginia
(01:07):
suburbs , um, where I grew upwith , uh, mom and dad and my
brother , um, went to the great, uh, Fairfax County Public
Schools. Um, I feel like I hadthe nice benefit of growing up
in a community where I had afairly, like I could , you know
(01:30):
, everyone , kind of peopleknowing each other. I wasn't
one of those families thatmoved around a lot, so I really
knew my elementary school andthen junior high school and
high school , uh, friends,quite , uh, quite classmates
quite, quite well. And uh, that, that's kind of it. I mean, I
have, suburbs are very much onmy mind cuz I've been a city
(01:51):
girl for most of my adult life.
But my husband and I moved toBloomfield New Jersey two weeks
ago. Uh, so that feels like asomewhat of a return. I hear
you. I hear you. I , you knowwhat , I grew up in San
Antonio, Texas, and , um, andSan San Antonio outside of the
downtown area is very much likeone big sprawling suburb. Um, a
(02:13):
part of that growing up, youknow . Where was it that you
found your love for film ?
Sorry, filmmaking or evendocumentaries? Yeah. I can't
say I really f that that wasn'tsomething that I developed in,
in childhood. I certainly lovedmovies from the very start and
, uh, was a big reader. And Ithink that , uh, there's more
(02:36):
of a connection between booksand documentaries than most
people think. I actually liketo start the making of every
documentary by reading onereally good related book , uh,
just to get some grounding inone subject matter, sometimes
more than one. But I think,like, I think reading is not
kind of enough of a discussedpart of the filmmaking , uh,
(03:00):
process. Um, you know, writingtoo. I think writing and
filmmaking are so closelyconnected, and I certainly know
some filmmakers who complainabout all of the writing you
have to do at the beginning ofthe process, like writing
treatments, writing funding,proposals. I actually find that
part of the process extremelyuseful. The only way to gather
(03:24):
your thoughts in a deep way isto write it down rather than,
you know, it's just a differentkind of thinking than the off
thec cuff thinking that you dowhen you're pitching something
verbally. So , um, I alwayswelcome the opportunity and
when I'm working withexecutives on a project, I
often offer to write them upmemos every, you know, month or
(03:46):
so, letting them know whatprogress we're making and what
, you know, what we've beenfilming, what we're working on
with the structure and stuff.
Because I find it a reallyhelpful way to organize my own
thinking . I, I , that's , Ilove that because I think
you're absolutely right. It's ,um, not just a part of that
research process, right? It'sthe , the reading piece of
this. But I've always foundthat I , um, often feel like I,
(04:07):
my, my own writing isinfluenced and gets better the
more I read. There is thisinteresting symbiotic thing
that goes on, I think, in ourbrains that we don't really
capture , uh, about thatimportance of the reading and
then trying to , um, relay thatinto something new or an idea
as a kid. So did you find, didyou find that as a kid is part
(04:29):
of that reading? You know, wasit something kind of that came
naturally to you, or what werethe kinds of stories that you,
you ended up really loving? Hmm. I loved all kinds of stories,
but I do, I am , I'm an animallover, so I did love some
animal stories, watershed down.
I don't know if that's a bookthat modern day younger readers
are gonna be familiar with ,but it's like a really
(04:50):
interesting intense book aboutlike a war warring Warrens of
rabbits. It was a book thatlike, just completely entranced
me as a , as a kid. Um, there'sa lot of, there's like action
and adventure and romance, butit's all rabbits. Um , there's
some, there's actually a fairamount of violence in it . Um ,
but , uh, it's a , just areally spectacular story and
(05:11):
one that I remember being ,being , uh, really engrossed in
as a kid. I also loved and readseveral times at different
phases of my life, starting insort of , uh, late childhood ,
uh, 1984, the George Orwell ,uh, future Dystopia book. And I
think there's something reallyimportant for storytellers in
(05:33):
that book because it's a bookthat you can connect with on
all kinds of levels. I firstread it when I was 12, even
though it has sort of maturethemes, but my family had this
little thing we did where wewould do, we had like a family
book group, like this wasbefore book groups were a
thing, but when we would go onvacation, we would have , we ,
my parents would pick out booksand then my dad would read it,
(05:55):
then my mom would read it. Thenmy older brother who was two
years older than I would, wouldread it and then I would read
it. And that , that was how Ifirst read 1984. And when I
read it as a kid, I was sort offollowing some very broad
a romance story. I got thatpart. There's some like mean,
you know, there's good guys andbad guys. I got that. Then I
(06:16):
had to read it like as a seniorin high school for a class and
sort of got some other themes.
And then I read it again as anadult and it's sort of like
each time, like I didn't evennotice the politics when I was
reading it at age 12 , right .
But like, later you get intothat. And I think that's , um,
I think actually the best filmsand documentaries should be
like that. They should work onall kinds of levels. A lot of
(06:37):
people , uh, we , we were mydirecting partner on some of
these films, including RBG andGabby Giffords of , of the ones
you mentioned , um, Betsy West. Like she, and we had not
intended our Rrb g film aboutJustice Ginsburg to be a
children's documentary, but weended , it ended up that like a
lot of kids were going to itlike, and, and really enjoying
(06:59):
it, particularly the littlegirls. Um, it just, and, and we
were like, wow, we didn'treally set out to make a
children's documentary, but wewere so pleased that children
found something to connect within this character in some like,
very deep way that was probablynot so much about the sort of,
you know, legal constitutionalissues that touched on. It had
(07:21):
more to do with the love story.
It had more to do with this.
Like we , we kind of felt likethe little mess of our
character had something to ,you know, this very tiny person
who can , who in a quiet waywas very tough and strong. And
like a lot of kids seem toreally relate to that. I, I
totally agree with you. I think, um, I remember sitting
actually all of the family downto , uh, see it when it came
(07:44):
out. Um, that's the kind offamily we are. We would, you
know, just sit down and say ,what, what is it that this
person gets or this person'slife gets to teach us? Um, and
I remember walking away fromit, it didn't matter. We have
four children and there wasn'tone of them that wasn't, it
didn't have something uniquetaking away from it. And you're
(08:06):
absolutely right. So much ofyour work does that, where do
you think you began to, to honethat craft of being able to
tell people's stories , uh, inthis multidimensional way?
Yeah. Well, you know, in mycase, I mean, first of all, I
appreciate the word craft cuz Ido feel like that's what I am
(08:28):
in the deepest way as like acrafts person . And it's not
like, it's not like you justhave this gush of inspiration
and then everything justmagically happens. Like the
project of any big, like quoteunquote artistic endeavor is
really a craft practice isreally just a matter of a lot
of hard work and a lot ofshaping and reshaping and a lot
(08:48):
of trying something one way.
And if that doesn't work,trying it another way, it's not
like, oh, you just sit backuntil you know, lightning
strikes and then it all comestogether. So , um, but in my
case, I really honed the craftin a pretty , um, you know, one
path for a lot of people intodocumentary film is journalism.
And I was a j broadcastjournalist for a long time. I
(09:12):
did actually, I did some print,I did radio, I did television.
I worked at NBC for a longtime. I was a producer and
writer there. So, you know, Iwas put in a very good position
to have to create a lot ofstories and write a lot of
stories very rapidly cuz that'swhat you have to do in the TV
(09:33):
business. And it actuallyhelped, it helped break some of
the habits where you get sortof stuck. Like if something is
gonna be on television nextweek, you can't really, you
can't really get stuck. Youhave to move forward. And I
actually often find that theproduct that you would create
in two weeks, if you have twoweeks is probably the same. Is
is it clo is maybe close to theproduct you would create in
(09:56):
eight weeks if you have thatamount
that amount of time. So it was,it was actually very helpful to
me to have a backgroundprofessionally where I was
forced to think and write andstructure stories very quickly.
And then that kind of openedthe door to doing , um, things
where there's a little moretime to work on it. Gotcha. In
(10:17):
doing some of my research fortoday's , uh, conversation, I
noticed you also worked atcourt TV and I began to
thinking like , Hmm , do I seethis thread on that legal piece
here? Because I also noticedthat you have a master's , am I
correct in law? Yes. Um, yeah,so those things are all
connected, certainly and areconnected to some of the work
(10:38):
that I've done more recently.
Um, my dad is a lawyer and okay, one of those lawyers who
actually really enjoys the law.
Like he , um, he representedlabor unions and had lots of
really interesting cases, did alot of kind of appellate law
stuff. And unlike, it wasn'tuntil, it wasn't until I was
(10:58):
already a grownup that Istarted to understand that lot
of lawyers really dislikedtheir jobs cuz my dad seemed to
love being a lawyer. And , ummm-hmm .
definitely always talked aboutit very positively. So I had ,
um, you know,
law. Um, in my earlyjournalistic career, I found
that I really enjoyed coveringtrials. I was a news reporter
(11:23):
for a radio station for threeyears , um, in New York. And
that job entails, like,basically every morning you're
getting assigned somethingdifferent. It's like stuff's
going on in the city. They'relike, oh , you do this, do
that. You get assigned to , todifferent things. And I really
found that my favorite storieswere covering criminal trials
at that point. There were somevery, this was like in the
(11:43):
early 1990s, and there weresome very high profile trials.
There was a racially motivatedmurder , um, that led to a case
that was widely known as theBensonhurst case. A very mm-hmm
.
(12:04):
into a white neighborhood to ,um, rent, to , to , to buy a
used car that had beenadvertised. A classified a just
like a completely randomsituation. Like he, he , you
know, went to buy a car, heshows up , uh, in this
neighborhood and a group ofwhite guys who are mistaking
(12:26):
him for someone else who wasdating somebody's girlfriend or
whatever , um, very , uh, youknow, brutally , uh, killed
him. That led to an extremelycontentious , um, not just a
trial, but a set of trialsbecause a number of this white
gang who had, who had committedthe crime , um, were tried
separately. So there were anumber of trials. Um , I was a
(12:49):
radio reporter covering that,and I found it very
interesting. It was kind of alittle bit more interesting
than some of the other storiesthat you're sort of thrown in
for a day. You don't reallyunderstand it. I was like, you
know, that these trials werelasting three or four weeks and
when you went every day andlistened to all the testimony
or doing reports, you, I feltlike you could sort of get a
little bit of a deeper, deepersense of things. And I just
(13:12):
really, you know, I reallyfound , um, uh, criminal, you
know, criminal law, just apretty interesting subject for
journalistic coverage. Andthat's what led me when , uh,
the network that later becamecourt TV that much later became
something else called True tv.
But when court TV started up inthe early nineties, I actually
(13:34):
wrote to the head of it sayinglike, oh, I, you know, I hear
you're starting this networkabout trials. Like, I , I love
trials. Like I love covering,I've been a journalist, I love
covering trials, like, can Icome work for you? And it was a
startup , so they had somepositions for junior level
people, and I got a juniorlevel job there and kind of
worked my way up to being, tobeing a producer there and
(13:55):
ultimately starting a show thatthey did about the Supreme
Court. So , um, okay . And thenthat led me to the, the law
school program that I didwasn't for people who wanted to
be lawyers, it was forjournalists who wanted a real
background in the law. So Iwent and I , I left court TV
thinking that like, if I'mgonna try to market myself as a
(14:16):
journalist who has a specialtyin law, I should maybe get some
formal education. And I wentand did this, this yearlong
master's program. Um, and thenI went right from there to NBC
where they were in fact , um,expanding their coverage of, of
criminal trials. Wow. That's a,that's a pretty amazing
transition. And it's also kindof a scary thing to leave a
(14:37):
what feels like a buddingcareer at a startup , um, to ,
uh, you know, to go back tobeing a student. Uh, and what
did you see in the , some ofthe risks? Or was it just
natural like, wait, if I reallywanna do this and I wanna do it
well, I I better go sharpenthis muscle I have between my
ears? Yeah. You know, the, the,the program that I went to was
(15:00):
a very specific program forpeople in that, in, in my
position. It wasn't like theywere, it wasn't like, wow,
that's weird to go to lawschool. It was like, we have ,
we have this program for peoplethat are already journalists
that want some background inthe law. There was a foundation
that funded it, so it wasn'tlike, I , I didn't need to pay
(15:21):
the very expensive , um, youknow, lost school fees. It was
just a , it was just a yearthrough through this program.
And I thought I would probablycome out of it in a better
situation than just having hadmy job at court tv. Um, so I
didn't think that much aboutthe rest when I was doing it. I
loved doing it. It was reallyfun to go back to school as a
(15:43):
32 year old. I feel like I gotmore out of that year of school
than any other schooling I didbecause I was kind of more
ready to just, I was reallythere to learn. It wasn't, it
was just a little differentthan my, my previous , uh,
academic experiences. So Iliked that a lot. But , um, but
truthfully, like you say, whatwere the risk at , I was like ,
oh , there's no risk . Buttruthfully, then when I got
(16:03):
out, it did take me , uh, aboutfour or five months to get a ,
it's not like I got , and Iactually didn't even get a job.
What I got at NBC initially wassome freelance assignments,
which ultimately worked theirway into a job. So it did turn
out to be risky, but I was notthinking about that. Um, you
know, I was not thinking too,too heavily about that , um, at
(16:27):
the time. Gotcha. Um , youknow, we talked a little bit
about , uh, really your collegeformation of years . What took
you, like, what was the thingthat went , gosh, journalism
and , and , uh, and writing ,uh, is potentially a path. Like
what was it that inspired youto take that path amongst all
the paths that were availableto us? Yeah , I mean , we , you
(16:49):
and I are, I, I feel like wemight be of the same , uh, age
genre. And so I would say thatif we were to think about it,
our moms probably had lesseropportunity to like select from
an array of career paths,right? And I often think about
it as like, wow, I, we couldhave been anything. Yes. Yeah .
(17:12):
So, absolutely. My momcertainly was in the generation
where women's career paths werereally constrained, you know,
and the , in fact, my mom, whenshe came out of college had an
internship at the labordepartment and, you know, and
then when she, you know, shemarried my dad and that was all
going great. And then when shegot pregnant with my brother,
it was like, okay, that's, youknow, like, that's it. Like, so
(17:33):
okay, that's basically the endof your career. Like, everyone
understood that. And while Idon't think she mi I don't
think she minded that hugely atthe time , um, because it was
so accepted and she did, shewasn't going into motherhood in
a resentful way. She reallyparticularly seemed to enjoy
having little kids. But like,ultimately I think it really
(17:55):
made her angry. Nowinterestingly, she became an
artist when, when , um, she,although she hadn't had any
artistic training at all whenshe was pregnant with my
brother, she started art as ahobby. She got more and more
into it and she became anartist , uh, professionally.
But that said, like later inlife she would talk about how
her father, who had been alawyer, had told her that she
(18:16):
could, she would be a reallygood lawyer and like, it, like
she wouldn't have said it thisway, she's passed away now. So
I'm speaking of her , shewouldn't have said this way ,
but I think she really, shereally resented , um, the lack
of opportunities for women. AndI will say that she had a very
strong sense of thepossibilities for me being
(18:37):
different and wanting me toexplore that. And one good ,
um, example of that. So when Iwas in high school , um, one of
the one elective course youcould take was typing. And I
wanted to take typing cause Ithought it'd be useful for
like, you know, at that time ,you know, you had to type all
your papers and whatever, it'sbefore laptops, right ? But
(18:58):
they're like , they're alltypewriters, young people , us
explaining it to you. I , IBMelectric was what I got to work
on . Exactly. So , um, mymother vetoed my taking, typing
in high school. Okay . Shesaid, no, no, no. If you like,
I don't want you to be asecretary. Like you shouldn't
learn to type now. Actuallythis was a little ridiculous
(19:19):
cuz there's all kinds ofreasons to me . Like I, you
know, like I need , I , while Ididn't work as a secretary, nor
did I have a secretary, soactually I do need to type and,
you know , in a period before Iwent to, I went to a graduate
program in journalism at a ,like, early soon after college.
And there was actually arequirement that you typed 40
words a minute and I didn'tknow how to type to get in. So
(19:40):
I actually took a summer classat a secretarial school to
learn to, cuz I'm like, okay ,I guess I need to type. And I
actually, I like typing anyway.
But like, she really, my momreally did , um, want me to be
a professional person. Gotcha.
And so, ha you know, in termsof that exploration of kind of
that early, what helped you, Ialways think about this is that
(20:04):
often in those years that youare going into college, that
you don't necessarily have anidea. You may have a dream, but
maybe not necessarilyunderstand the path that might
be in front of you. Yeah. Ididn't have a clue, I would
say. Um, and in terms ofgetting into journalism, well,
first of all, I'll say that mymaternal, no, my paternal
(20:25):
grandfather, my dad's fatherwas a newspaper reporter. He
was a sports writer for the NewYork Post. Um, and that was
always presented to us ashaving been like a pretty cool
career. Like, he didn't make alot of money, but he knew like,
(20:46):
he like knew the New YorkGiants and he had like great
Knicks tickets and he had like,we got Billie Jean King's
autograph. Like, like it wassort of, and you know, going to
sports events with him in thepress box was like incredible.
It's like, what? And he, youknow, he, he was what you might
think a , um, a, you know, NewYork post sports reporter in
(21:09):
the 1960s and seventies mighthave been. He wore a little
hat, he smoked a cigar
was like a really fun, kind ofsalty old , lovely Jewish man.
I don't know . He, he, hereally was sort of a character
. So I had that view ofjournalism , um, but not , you
(21:30):
know, but really not much else.
And , um, I was at a point inmy life where I thought like,
oh, maybe I should go tograduate school in something.
And really the impetus forgoing to journalism school was
how much I wanted to move toNew York. And I, I went to
Columbia, which is in New York.
I just like, was like, oh, Ishould go to New York
(21:51):
Like, I, I'm, I'm, I can't saythat I, that these things were
like deeply, deeply thoughtout. But I will say that from
the very first week ofjournalism school, I was like,
oh, this is , this is amazing.
It's a Fanta like what a , whata interesting, I mean, you
know, things have changed a lotand journalism Yeah . That ,
the journalism that exists nowis not what it was in 1989 when
(22:14):
I was studying journalism. Butpart of the, you know, the
program that I was in was, youwere going out there and
writing stories and you got alittle press pass. And , uh,
you know, within my first weekI was sent down to City Hall to
cover a story. And you know,the mayor at that time , who
was Ed Koch at that time, wasgiving a press conference. And
(22:37):
I had my little, you know, as astudent at Columbia, like you
had a little press pass. And Iraised my hand and I asked him
a question and he answered it.
And I was like, this
Like, here I am, like, no ,like I'm this young, tiny
person and like you , you'retelling me I could just go to
city hall and ask the mayor aquestion just because I have a
press pass. Like, this is thecoolest job in the world, most
(23:00):
powerful positions to people toask that question.
That's fantastic. Um, in , inthat journey of kind of taking
you through there , um, whatwere some of the things that
you learned? I mean, obviouslythe , I think there's always
the academic version of school,but to that point around like
the actual practice of what itmeans to be a journalism. Cuz I
(23:20):
think there's, to your pointaround the craft of writing,
right? And the craft offilmmaking is one aspect, but I
also think that there's apractice , uh, that makes you a
, a , a better questioner , uh,a better , uh, interviewer.
What were some of those thingsthat you did that helped , uh,
hone that ? Yeah, I mean, Ithink a big part of it was ,
(23:43):
um, listening. You know, havinga conversation that involves
listening. Not so much having acharted out list of everything
that I wanted to ask, but morejust listening to what the
person was saying and go goingfrom that. And even more today
as a documentary filmmaker,when a lot of what you're doing
(24:04):
is spending time filming andwatching people and like,
trying to not be so nervousabout like, all the things that
can go wrong with your filmingand is the, you know , is the
cinematographer like in theright position. They can be
worrying about all thesedifferent elements that take
(24:24):
you out of the present moment.
But if you're like, watchingvery carefully what your
subjects are doing, you'lllearn all kinds of things about
them, which will lead tointeresting questions and ways
to engage. So, you know, I dothink the , some of the things
(24:44):
that make someone a gooddocumentary filmmaker would be
like the same qualities thatmight make you a good friend.
Like trying to pay attention tosomeone else and listen to what
they have to say and try to setyourself aside for long enough
to look at what theirexperience might be and get
(25:07):
into their mind a little bitand then try to come at it from
that perspective. I love that.
Cause I think that so often ,um, I often think that so many
of us come into the , uh, intothat space sometimes even in
journalism with maybe apredisposition of what the
outcome should be as opposed toenabling the story to go work
(25:31):
really is supposed to go right. Cuz often when you are so
occupied with a point of view,you tend to miss those little
nuggets , um, that make peopleincredibly human or humanize
the story or the subjectmatter. Um , and I think that's
such an important part of, Ithink your work today is that
(25:53):
it's so clear to me that one ofthe gifts you bring to the
table is active listening. Youknow , it isn't , it isn't
passive at all, like it'sactually looking for those
nuggets. Yeah. And I think, butI think a big part of that is
trying to get out of your own ,trying to get out of one's own
nervousness. Like there's kindof a lot to be nervous about
(26:17):
when you're making a film andyou can get so caught up in
everything that could be goingwrong that that makes you not
pay attention to what'sactually happening. And yeah ,
learning to set aside like allthose anxieties that people
have when they're doing what ,what I do and what a lot of
jobs entail, like it's a lot ofit is just like, like, you
(26:40):
know, I've worked as a teacheradvising people making
documentaries also. And I, Ireally think so much of the
process is just the psychologyof it all. Like getting so
worried about it going wrongthat you don't notice what's
hap , that you're not listeningto what's happening or, you
know, in the case of our work,there's so much that you're
filming and people, if you'reworried that it didn't come
(27:04):
out, that that , that you know,what you're filming wasn't
exactly what you were trying toget, then people become like
afraid of their own footage.
And actually delving in andlooking at the footage that's
been shot as soon as possibleis like really key . Because
until you're seeing, you know,until you're forgetting the
expectation of what youpromised, whoever was funding
the film, what it's gonna be,it's , don't worry about that.
(27:27):
Like, the morkey is like, whatam I getting? And like, what
you're getting often is reallygood and you can build a lot
out of it. Well , that'sbeautiful. I think those are
words of b wisdom that I thinkeverybody in who is exploring
this space. You know, so oftenyou get wrapped up in the, the
minutia and as opposed to just, uh, enabling the story to
reveal itself, right? And justlearning that, you know, the ,
(27:50):
the, the first attempt atsomething is really just the
beginning of the process. Andyou can get, I, I had a student
once actually very talented ,uh, young woman who , um,
showed me a rough cut ofsomething, of a piece that she
had created and just said witha really deep despondency.
(28:11):
Like, it's just, you know, it'sjust not what I imagined in my
head that it was gonna be like,I, you know, I had this idea
like, it's just not what Iimagined it's gonna be. And I
said, poppy , her name is Poppy. I feel I have felt that way
every rough cut of every filmI've ever done and I've been
doing this for 25 years. Sodon't worry. Like that's, that
(28:33):
feeling is actually good.
That's the feeling that's gonnapropel you to now make it
better. Yeah, that's the roughpart,
Exactly. That's why they calledit a rough , it's too bad it's
always , look at it this way,it's really too bad that we
don't dream in rough cuts.
Cause it would make sometimesthe so much easier. I guess
that's one way of lowering thebar if you started training in
(28:55):
rough cuts, right ?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
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Speaker 3 (30:01):
Hi, I am Mandy Kramer, the host of The Last
Generation, a podcast aboutprofound conversations between
Holocaust survivors and theirgrandkids. As the grandkid of a
holocaust survivor, I never gotthe chance to have that
conversation, so I wanted toencourage others to do so. This
new season, it's available onall platforms.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Listeners, be sure to check out Julie Cohen's
latest documentary, GabbyGifford Won't Back Down. It's
streaming right now on AmazonPrime Video, apple tv, Redbox
and Roku. Was it, did you feellike it was a natural , uh,
kind of transition from theworld of journalism telling
often 32nd stories, you know,two minute stories, two long
(30:43):
form stories? Well, you knowwhat, I was actually in the
long , long form journalism. Imean , you know, well I did
some shorter stories when I wasin public radio, but when I was
in at nbc I was working forDateline. So I was doing mostly
hour and two hour stories. It'sjust that they were about
murder trials, you know, notthe , and and I will say, I
(31:03):
actually don't think it's acoincidence that since then
I've grabbed in my documentaryindependent work, I've
gravitated towards like muchmore positive subject matter
rough. I really , nineties wererough. Yeah. I really prefer, I
really prefer, like, you know,and not that I mind what , you
know, I think there can be somevery, you know, tough material
(31:27):
that can make quite a goodstory. But that's for the most
part, I wanna tell stories thathave a lot of love in them .
just say that , uh, I took anopportunity to go and explore
something as simple I that ,and it's not simple. It is so
rich. The sturgeon of queens,right? That actually had to
(31:48):
take , I had just like, so ,um, that there was just so
speaking of love, so much lovein the craft of , uh, not just
the story of this family that Ibelieve four generations in
this family , um, Russ anddaughters, but, but also like
these nuggets of things that Iloved that you were able to
(32:09):
kind of tease out was what madethem different. You know, the ,
the dad being an early feministto, you know, really this big ,
almost very much a woman ownedand woman run business that,
you know, I think tacticallyyou could say, oh, they , you
know what, you get your bagelsin your locks and there are
really wonderful deli. But inreality when you walk in and
(32:33):
what the story revealed wasthat they , you know, it was
like these little blessings,these little, these little like
love notes to every one oftheir customers. Um, how is it
that you go about picking yoursubjects or your subject
matter? Yeah, I mean, you know,often there's just a threshold
(32:55):
question of is this some , isthis a story you wanna spend a
number of months or years kindof delving, delving into? Um,
and beyond that, it can kind ofgo in all different directions.
Um, you know, it helps if thestory is like not just one
note, if there's like adifferent layer to it. I mean
(33:17):
the, the sturgeon queens, asyou mentioned, has like these,
you know, four , you know, it'sthese generations of, of a , of
a Jewish family. But then therewas this incredibly interesting
twist story starts in 1914, butthen in the seventies , um,
there's the twist of someDominican immigrants to New
(33:37):
York moving, you know, youknow, a new generation of
immigrants moves to town,starts working at the store.
One , uh, one employee inparticular, Herman Vargas,
who's a major uh, character inthe story ends up learning not
only to slice locks , but alsoto speak Yiddish because he
understood that that wouldconnect him to , uh, to the
(33:58):
customers in a way that wasgonna be helpful for his
career. And his family'simmigrant story in the
seventies is so similar to JoelRuss's immigrant story from the
early 19 hundreds. And it justsort of reminds us what brings
us all together and is justkind of unexpected. I also kind
of loved, you know, the, thesome of the edgy, some of the
(34:21):
conflict within in the family,a lot of the arguing
I think is all, is all good.
And , um, Julie , that one of ,uh, most of your work, that one
I have to say it felt sofamiliar to me,
don't know , it was like theJewish thing. It was like , for
us, you know, we , we areLatinx Jews, so for us our
language is , you know, isSpanish. But I will tell you
(34:42):
from that it was like, oh waita minute, the things that we
talk about in Spanish, this isthe Yiddish word for them . And
like, I had those connectionsbetween it and, and it was just
, um, uh, it , I don't know ,it felt like such a gift to, to
feel like you got to know thefamily so well. Yeah. Yes. Well
that's, yeah , in some ways Ifeel like that was different
than some projects that I'vedone cuz I often feel like I'm
(35:03):
delving into worlds that arevery new to me. And whereas the
family like just I like feltlike, no , this is subject like
herring . Like these aresubjects I'm very familiar with
uh, to, to them. So, you know,but also I was actually
surprised how many fans thatfilm ended up getting who
(35:27):
weren't Jewish. Like, I justdidn't, I didn't really expect
that, but just, I certainly raninto a lot of people who said
that the two sort ofgrandmotherly characters, the
sisters who were at the heartof the story, like reminded
them of people in their ownfamily. And I've very much
absolutely in my, in mydocumentary life gravitated
(35:48):
towards older characters. Ilove interviewing people in
their eighties and nineties. Ithink there's so much , they're
better interview subjects thanyounger people. It was an
opportunity that I didn't havewhen I, you know, when you work
in network news, they're alwaystrying to appeal to the key
demographic, which is 18 to 49.
And the belief is that peoplein that demographic don't want
(36:08):
, like, once anyone turns 50,like nobody wants to hear from
them anymore. Um, my firstproject in my independent
documentary world was somethingI was commissioned to do for
New York Public Television,which was , um, called New York
Goes to War. It was about NewYorkers who served in World War
II and New Yorkers who kind ofserved at home like Rosie the
(36:29):
Riveter type people, like whatNew York was like during World
War ii. And so for thatproject, by definition, I was
interviewing people who were intheir eighties and nineties and
it was just such a revelationcuz they were so, you know,
first of all, people are prettyhonest by that age, just more
honest than, than younger , um,characters. But I also think
(36:49):
the difference wasn't just age,it was also kind of
generational because mm-hmm .
interviewing people who didn'tgrow up with television. Um, oh
wow. And as a result, I mean,one thing I always found,
interestingly when I wasworking for Date Dateline, is
people that are in a Datelinestory all end up talking like
(37:10):
people that are on a Datelinestory, because they've all seen
Dateline , like even the peoplewho like were , are the
murderers. Like you go toprison and you start
interviewing them and theysound and they start sounding
like every other, like they,they kind of know the
conventions of the story andthey'll be like, oh, we had
such a fairy tale wedding.
Like, it's all kind of odd.
Whereas the older people arejust yeah , tended to do
(37:35):
interviews in a much moreindividualistic way and like,
they might say anything. So itjust now on the other, the
other flip side of that is theconnection between my question
and their answer was often
people would like, not, notthat, you know, I , you know,
(37:56):
was talking to people who weretotally cogent, but like, they
were gonna say what they weregonna say. They'd like to , you
know, like, I like . So themore of the trick was to not
get in their way to let themsay what they wanted to and to
coax and to coax out more whensomething seemed really
fruitful. And as you've seen ina bunch of the films that I've
worked on solo and a bunch ofthe films that I've worked on
(38:16):
with Betsy, we really enjoyinterviewing people in pairs.
Um, because it, just seeing therelationships between people is
like so interesting. And whenyou put two people together in
front of a camera, especiallyif they've known each other for
a long time, you often get areally, something magical
happens that's very differentfrom inter interviewing
individuals. I love thatbecause I think that you, one
(38:39):
of the things you capture , um,and I think is it , you've
captured it in R B G , thesturgeon of Queens , um, and
even in the way that peopletalked about Julia Childs , um,
was there is a, there's thebeauty of hindsight and wisdom
and you just don't have that. I, you know, I'm nearing my, my
(38:59):
fifties and I don't think Ihave enough of it. Julie .
There's like times when it'slike, huh , you know, I can
reflect back on that , but Iwould imagine, I know when
speaking with my mom who was inher seventies, you know,
there's a lot of hindsight inthe wisdom, and I think a part
of it is that you also become alittle bit more comfortable in
yourself and that that filter,I guess maybe this generation's
(39:22):
filter might be the Twitterfilter , um, or the , um, or
even the TikTok filter right,at some point has to come off.
Right. I think there issomething to that. So in this
world of te uh, telling longform stories, what has been ,
(39:44):
um, the thing that you're mostproud of? Well, that's, that's
kind of hard to say. I mean,almost, you know, sometimes
it's really, it's not even theproduct so much as the
connections with the humanbeings that are in the stories.
I mean, you know, our currentfilm about Gabby , Gabby
Giffords , the member ofCongress who was shot in the
(40:06):
brain and had to work her wayback from a coma to a fully
functioning, incrediblyengaging and charismatic and
tough activist , uh, that sheis today. Like, getting to know
her has been amazing. Like,she's just the most, she's just
(40:26):
the most incredible person Ithink I've ever met. And I , I
think that, you know, from whatwe know from people who've
known her for, for much longerthan we have, she was a really
intense and charismatic personbefore she was shot as well.
But she's just like, it's justlike, so, like I don't , so I I
don't even know how to exactlydescribe it, but it's like I'm,
(40:49):
I think we're really proud ofthe film, but I'm also really
proud to be friends with thisincredible person. Um, well, I
, I had to hone in on it . Ithink one of the things that's,
first of all, I have not seenthe Gabby film yet. I am so
excited to, to go and and seeit. I think we're , we're
talking about it's in theatersnow, is that correct? Right .
That's right. Okay . Um, Iremember exactly where I was on
(41:13):
January 8th when that newsflesh came across. And
something about Gabby is , it'ssomeone who, I wouldn't say
that I, you know, overtlypolitical fact , but there was
something about her and her ,um, uh, I would say almost her,
her rise to celebrity wassomething that there was
(41:34):
something special about her andher, her desire for public
service. It wasn't as if shewas going in and she was in the
form of politics. I think thatshe was giving definition and
rise to , um, to public s thepublic service aspect of it. So
on , I remember standing in mylooting room , um, and I on
(41:56):
January 8th and our kids wereout and it was kind of our, our
typical, I wanna say it was aweekend, if I remember
correctly. And I remember thatnews flash coming on. It was
just, it felt like a , a shotthat was aimed at hope. Um ,
because my takeaway from , uh,you know, who she is , uh,
(42:18):
through her acts , uh, and, andher beliefs and why she went
into public service was one ofgiving hope that, that the
world could get betterincrementally. Yeah. And
there's something that we saidthat I think in those nuggets
of your film, you bring thesepeople that are larger than
life often that have theseremarkable stories , um, tell
(42:43):
that you bring them into ourliving rooms or into the, the
theater in such a way that ,um, that friendship that you've
created with them, because Ifelt that way , um, with your
Ruth Bader Ginsburg work wasthat we felt like we knew them.
Yeah, well I think, you know,trying to create a personal,
that personal tone is certainlypart of what we've been doing
(43:06):
with these films. It's in someways, I mean that's why , like
I talk about my journalistictraining being so much a part
of my filmmaking and it is ,but that's a part that's kind
of new that the, you know, Iwill say when I first watched a
cut of the film that , um, wehad created about the New
(43:27):
Yorkers who served in in WorldWar ii , like we had been
working on it in like theselittle tiny chunks, myself and
the editor, and we hadn'treally been watching large
stretches of it and it was atwo hour film and at one point
we sat down and watchedeverything that we had at a
certain point and I just, Ijust like looked at it and I
was like, wow, what I said tothe editor, I was saying , a
(43:48):
great guy named Carrie Soloway. I said, wow, it's so loving
and because like that, like,like that wasn't what I've been
doing at nbc . And I'm like, Ijust, so like , and , and like
I did love these amazing like,you know, 92 year old veterans
, um, like the they their , andlike, what, but what was it
(44:11):
like, I hadn't really set outto make that the center of the
film, but when you watched , Imean one thing that um , that
we did in that film andactually comes up in the Gabby
Gifford people in the GabbyGifford film too , is like ,
uh, letting characters sing.
Um, and for these veterans thatI was having recall what was
(44:32):
sometimes really painful partsof their lives, cuz a number
one of them had been a prisonerof war and one had been shot
kind of severely, but yet theyalso had really fond memories
of, of their service in the waythat, you know, veterans of
that war in particular , uh,due , they were proud of the
role they had played instopping something horrible as
(44:53):
they should be. And part of theprocess of them recalling was
like, I just have them singsongs to the camera of like
that they, that they loved andthey have these beautiful
voices and they're singing andI just, I just felt like, you
know, like, wow, I like thatyou can sort of feel that
there's some love there whenyou're training to be a
(45:15):
journalist. They don't reallytell you you should try to
create work that's loving. Butlike, I'm like, that's kind of
how I want things to be goingforward. Like, you know , you
get, you go through life andlike, there's all kinds of
phases to it, but like I amalso, the characters were older
at a time that I was sort ofgetting heavily into middle age
(45:37):
and thinking about that. Youknow, there had, this was also
at the early stages of filmingin high definition, you know,
where the, you were not even 4Kyet, although now we film in
4k, right ? The first time wehad gone from standard
definition to high definitionand there had been a fear,
particularly in the broadcastnews world, but there , but ,
(45:57):
but all throughout the industryof people that make real, that
visual stuff of real people,there had been been this fear ,
oh , high definition's gonna beterrible cuz everybody's gonna
look terrible. Like if you'renot 23, you're gonna look like
crap. You're gonna see thelines, you're gonna see. And
that, that , uh, world War IIpiece was the first thing I'd
done in high death and it waslike the opposite. You saw the
(46:20):
people's wrinkles, but theywere beautiful. Like you saw,
like, you just saw like thereal beauty of the people.
Like, and you know, just sortof allowing that to come
through seems, seems like areally worthy thing. It's
interesting how those, each oneof those, those lines, we say
(46:41):
wrinkles, but Right . Each oneof those lines probably has a
story behind it altogether. AndI think that's a , I think
that's a really interestinginsight into , um, all the
things that we tend to fight,
we tend to fight. Right . Um ,you know, that we're often
(47:02):
fighting the, the storytellingor even the wisdom that comes
with Right . What it means tohave lived that long. Yes.
Right. No, it really, it it ,it made really changed my own
view of aging to like have thatexperience and that point I was
like , oh no . I was like, well, although I was like, okay,
well I'm in this uncomfortablemiddle period, but like, gimme
(47:22):
a couple decades and then likewhen I'm 80 I'm gonna look ,
I'll look really cute again .
So wait , we have to , I thinkthat we have to redefine, like
I think we're really cute inthis middle age too. I'm, I'm
falling in love with my elevens, which is fine
(47:43):
so, you know , what were someof the barriers that you've
kind had to overcome throughoutyour career? Cause we all, like
none of this happens overnight.
Um , it doesn't have , you know, making a film , uh, about,
you know, one of our mostbeloved , uh, Supreme Court
justices or American veteran. Ihave to say that that one also
(48:07):
, um, was an eye-opening, youknow, beautiful story again
about love , uh, clearly the ,the two , uh, the the love but
the , you know, what it meantfor an American veteran , um,
to be blown up in Afghanistanand to come home and refined
life. Right. Um, in , in suchan inspiring way. None of that
(48:31):
is easy. What are some of thehurdles that you've had to
overcome , um, to tell thesestories? Yeah, I mean the
hurdles are you often, youknow, in the case of American
veteran, like getting thefunding to, to do the story or
you know, or even not gettingfully funded but just going ,
(48:53):
uh, you know, I think inearlier stages because of R B G
being more of a commercialsuccess that sort of opened the
door to more recent thingsbeing easier to get funding. Um
, you know, just honestly. But,but in, you know, just a few
years ago the , the issue wasreally figuring out how I could
(49:19):
do some things that did bringin an income even while I was
doing some projects that seemedreally important to do, but
that I understood weren't gonnabe big money makers . And, you
know, and because they're notthat commercial, it's gonna be
a challenge to get them funded.
And I just kind of chose atthat point to try to split my
(49:40):
life and my projects to try tohave a c do a certain amount of
work that was just meant togenerate some income that could
help to do the projects thatwere kind of like more my
dreams to do. Gotcha . Can yougimme some examples of the ,
the , it's because there's ,there's always that balance and
it's interesting cuz it's Oh,sure. I find that also in my
own work. So Yeah. You know,when I left NBC and I did it
(50:05):
like by choice and veryconsciously, like I understood
that I was about to go into asituation where I wasn't gonna
have the same stability. I'mfortunate to be married to a
lovely man who has a job andhas health insurance for us
both. And I understand that noteveryone has that same good. I
mean, that's one of
(50:27):
ways in which I'm a privilegedperson and that's one of them .
So, you know, but I had a jobfor quite, for quite a while
and that's good and had helpedme save some money. And then
when I left , um, nbc um, alongwith the documentary stuff I
was also doing , um, you know ,I did a lot of like public
relations videos. I made avideo for , uh, the hospital
(50:50):
for special surgery, like a ,like a 30 minute film about
their history. It was quiteinteresting. It was done under,
they commissioned me to do it.
They paid me to do it. Like,like that's how I was making a
living. I , I also did, I alsodid sturgeon queens cause I
wanted to do it, but like, Iwas making my living making ,
uh, doing like public relationsvideos and also doing just
other commissioned projects for, I did a lot of , um, programs
(51:13):
for, for New York p b s thatjust like a a half hour project
would come up and they wouldask me whether I would, whether
I would do it. And if I wasavailable, I'd get, you know,
they would, I'd get paid to dothat. Julie, thank you so much
for coming here today andsharing your story with our
listeners who are change makersin their own right. You see,
(51:36):
the power to dream comes fromthe ability to see an interest
or yourself or a passion in howsomebody else has carved a path
for you. So I wanna personallythank you Julie for carving
that path for these futurechange makers . Listeners, this
is my dare to you. I want youto take these revelations
(51:58):
revealed in this episode anddare to design an inclusive and
equitable future today.
Designed by.show is written andproduced by the design Core at
Aurora 21 Studios podcastproducer, audio engineer, and
original music by RachelBickley, commercial Voice
Talent by Angelo. And I'm yourhost, Joanna Pena . Bickley .
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