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September 28, 2025 32 mins

When the classroom feels like a battlefield, who's there to pull you through? In this illuminating conversation with Dr. Goodier, we dive deep into the concept of "educational trenches" – those challenging periods when educators question their professional path.

For instructional designers and those developing professional development, she provides actionable advice: know your audience, focus on outcomes, scaffold appropriately, and respect educators' time with blended learning approaches that include meaningful follow-up. Perhaps most importantly, she encourages all educators to periodically reassess their core motivation and be willing to explore new educational contexts when needed.

Whether you're currently in the trenches or supporting colleagues who are struggling, this episode offers both practical strategies and heartfelt encouragement. Subscribe now and join our community of education professionals committed to designing learning experiences with intention and care.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jackie Pelegrin (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Designing with
Love podcast.
I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you
information, tips, and tricks asan instructional designer.
Hello, GCU students, alumni,and fellow educators, welcome to
episode 50 of the Designingwith Love podcast.

(00:21):
Today, I have the pleasure ofinterviewing Dr.
Dana Goodier, an educationalconsultant, author, and podcast
host.
Welcome, Dana, thank you forhaving me.
Thank you so much for coming,Dana.
I appreciate you taking yourtime to come onto my show today.
So, can you tell us a littlebit about yourself?

Dr. Dana Goodier (00:40):
So I've been in education for 25 years.
I started out teaching Frenchfor about 13 years and then I
taught a bit of English.
French was mostly at the highschool, english was at the
middle and high school and I'vealso taught some English as a
second language.
I've done a variety of adminroles like dean of students and

(01:04):
also multi-tiered systems ofsupport, coordinator, behavior,
interventionist, and so that'slike my day job.
And then the podcasting issomething I've been doing since
2020.
You know it's a windy road ineducation for a lot of educators
.
So I went with the theme out ofthe trenches, because a lot of

(01:27):
educators find themselves inseveral trenches throughout
their careers, so I wanted togive them a space to tell their
stories, and I also wrote a book, the Trenches Stories of
Resilient Educators.
So I know I'm going to betalking a little bit about
trench stories and educationaltrenches.
Another thing about me is I'vespoken professionally for about

(01:52):
eight years now and I speakoften at conferences, but I'm
available for differentconsulting opportunities as well
.

Jackie Pelegrin (02:02):
That's great.
So you keep yourself busy inthe field of education and then
consulting, and then with yourpodcast too.
So it sounds like you're ableto give so much insight and
learn what's going on out in thefield.
So that's great, I love that.
It's always good to keep an eyeon what's going on and see how
you can help fellow educators inthat.

(02:24):
So that's great, I love it.
So what's your definition ofbeing in the educational
trenches, as you mentioned withyour book?

Dr. Dana Goodier (02:33):
So it's really that tough period of time where
somebody is questioning whetherthey should stay in education,
and I know that there have beena lot more educators who've left
education since the pandemic.
But I think even as long as I'vebeen in education, there are
things that are tough foreducators and you know, there's

(02:54):
often the fact that educatorsleave within the first three to
five years of teaching if theydon't get that.
Um, the trenches I've been in,you know they.
They haven't been easy at thetime, but it's.
It's that philosophy ofwhatever doesn't kill you makes
you stronger, right.

(03:15):
It's, it's a learningexperience, right.
And um, it's really importantduring those trenches to have a
support system.
And that support system mightnot be at your school, it might
be through virtual meetups withother educators, it might be
through some type of a networkor professional organization, it

(03:37):
might be just doing the hobbiesor workout activities somebody
likes to do.
But if somebody is in a trench,it's making sure they're not
living and breathing their job,because that trench could be
caused by being overworked aswell.

Jackie Pelegrin (03:54):
That's so true.
Yeah, and it can lead toburnout and everything else.
And so in the helpingprofessions, as they call it,
and I believe that teaching isin that area I often work on
curriculum for counseling andsocial work and they talk about
compassion, fatigue and burnoutand how it's important to have
that self-care.
So even for teachers andeducators, that's just as

(04:18):
important right to have thatself-care and so that they don't
face that burnout andeverything you know, because
what you're doing is a serviceand that's something that even
students in my class we talkedabout this.
There's a discussion questionthat talks about servant
leadership and, with GCU being aChristian university, it comes

(04:38):
into like the human flourishingaspect and that servant
leadership and all of that.
And so it's amazing because alot of my students are currently
educators in K-12 education.
So they talk about how it's acalling for them and they're
honored to do it, but it doesweigh on you after a while.
So being able to reach out, askfor help, know that there's a

(05:01):
network out there that can helpyou, like you said, even if it's
not in the school itself, butknowing that there's a network
out there that can help you,like you said, even if it's not
in the school itself, butknowing that there's a network
out there that can be there tosupport them.
They may not know it's outthere, so it's that's important
to have that.
Yeah, absolutely.
So it's great that you'reyou're out, you're there
providing that support, doingconferences to speak about it
and and get that awareness outthere and know that there's,

(05:23):
even though there may be astigma, that it's okay to ask
for help, right?

Dr. Dana Goodier (05:28):
Yeah, that's great and I think leaders and
others you know veteraneducators who might be a teacher
support person those people aremuch more aware that there are
educators who get burnt out andthat need to take some time for
themselves.
You know, I think that's reallyevolved in the last five to 10

(05:49):
years.
I don't think that was so muchthe case when I started in
education Because I mean, yeah,there were people who left, but
it was more just, you know, youdo your job and whatever it
takes, kind of attitude, I thinkRight, but I'm glad that it's

(06:09):
being more recognized now.

Jackie Pelegrin (06:11):
Yes, that's important and we talked a little
bit about networking.
So, in your experience, what'sthe value of networking with
other educators on social media?

Dr. Dana Goodier (06:20):
So you know there's a variety of places
people can network.
Twitter now used to be thatplace.
Through Twitter chats, peoplemoved over to Blue Sky and
there's some of that going onthere.
A lot of networking I've had isthrough just being part of like
a podcast network and a placewhere people can access

(06:45):
professional development.
It's called teach better team.
I got connected with them fiveyears ago, so there's blogs
there.
I've written blogs, there'smany other people that write
blogs and then there's podcastsabout 45, including mine and you
know they.
They do have some professionaldevelopment events, either some
live like webinars, or sometimesthey've had these 12 hour lives

(07:10):
where they have different guestspeakers for 12 hours straight.
They had a couple ofconferences a couple of years
ago, and so I think that's agood way to do like online
networking networking.
But also you know the socialmedia piece in terms of if you
are part of an organization thatmight be a state organization.

(07:31):
That's something that I'mresponsible for as president of
Colorado Congress for languageteachers.
You know trying to get the wordout there to help promote
conferences that we're holdingor other professional
development events, and we'velearned that, you know, not

(07:52):
everybody interacts with thesocial media, so trying to get
that sent through email blastsand also word of mouth.
If there's people in leadershippositions in different
districts in the state that theycan also send out emails to
their people, that might be partof the organization as well.
So it really depends on socialmedia, where people access that,

(08:16):
and people are part of Facebookgroups.
But there's also a lot ofpeople who are on Instagram or
TikTok nowadays.
There's also a lot of peoplewho are on Instagram or TikTok
nowadays.
So it's it's really kind ofevolved and, um, you know, I
think you just have to findwhere you get most uh, uh
analytics of, of interactionfrom, from the people you're

(08:38):
trying to reach.

Jackie Pelegrin (08:39):
Yeah, so the marketing you know, going across
different platforms anddifferent methods is really a
key there, because you don'twant to just segment just one
area but you want to make sureyou broaden it out and can
target the audience that youneed to and meet them where
they're at Right and make surethat they yeah, they have what
they need.
If they're like you said, ifthey're not on social media that
much but they check their emailor they do good with word of

(09:03):
mouth, you know you could alwaysget, like, you know, little
flyers out there or something,digital flyers or something say
hey, this is coming up and makesure you you know if you can to
come.
So that's great.
Yeah, it's really nice havingthose, those networks.
They have that forinstructional design too, you
know, on like LinkedIn and stufflike that.
So it's really nice to havethose available.

(09:25):
And they have closed groups thatare there too.
So it's nice to have some ofthose opportunities where you
know it's a little bit moreexclusive and you can get some
hands-on type of support as well.
So that's great.
Yeah, I love that You're ableto champion for that and be
there for them, so that's great.
Able to champion for that andbe there for them, so that's

(09:47):
great.
So, as we know that sometimeswomen have unique challenges of
being leaders in today'seducational climate, what do you
think are some of thosechallenges that particularly
women like us face in today'seducational climate?

Dr. Dana Goodier (10:00):
I think there are often like principals at the
elementary level, um, sometimesat the middle and high school
level, but not as often.
So I think that's also justgetting more principals at the
secondary level.
Um, I also think in terms oflike district leadership,
because that's where I um, youknow, I I most familiar with.

(10:22):
You know K-12 school systems,so, um, there aren't enough
women.
You know K-12 school systems,so, um, there aren't enough
women leaders in my opinion, inin district leadership for the
organization.
Um, I also think giving morepeople who are maybe in a
teaching role, leadershipopportunities, whether it's

(10:42):
chairing committees, whetherit's, you know, starting
different.
It could be clubs or otherthings for students to maybe
fundraise or something like that, things for students to maybe
fundraise or something like that.
You know, a lot of the time theleaders have to find that
themselves right and advocatefor it.

(11:06):
I think some challenges alsocould be that family and home
balance.
You know it's traditionallystill, unfortunately, the mom
who asked to get the kids a lotand and you know it's
traditionally still,unfortunately, the mom who asked
to get the kids a lot and, youknow, be there and pick up the
groceries.
So I think that that'ssometimes an issue when you know

(11:30):
there's maybe not an equalbalance in the spousal
responsibilities equal balancein the spousal responsibilities
and if there is a female leaderwho has a lot more obligations
maybe later in the day theycan't always be at some of those
school events or pick up theirkids from school it can be a
challenge.

(11:50):
So, yeah, and I think also justfor women leaders getting the
opportunity to speak, or for meI've always put out my name and
sent the proposals in andcontacted places to speak at,
but I think some people needthat, what they have to share.

(12:19):
So I think that's something I'dlike to see more of in
leadership conferences morewomen who maybe don't have as
much speaking experience buthave a lot to share, who'd like
to get into the speakingprofession.

Jackie Pelegrin (12:27):
That's a great idea because that's something
that another guest that was onmy show mentioned to me after we
talked.
He said I can send youinformation about someone that
can help you get like a goodlike social, like plug for
conferences, and then you canstart off doing virtual ones and
then you can get paid for them,and I'm like, well, that's a

(12:48):
really good idea and it'ssomething I've always thought of
in the back of my head.
But now it's with you talkingabout it too.
It's kind of brought it to theforefront of my mind.
So I'm like, yeah, that wouldbe nice to be able to do that
and share some of thatinformation, especially being in
education for so long in highereducation, and be able to share
some of that.

(13:08):
And then I see you know leaderswithin the university going to
conferences and coming back, andI'm like that would be really
unique and I think it adds tothe depth of someone's
experience, and especially forwomen.
You know they can add that totheir resume or their CV and be
able to, you know, incorporatethat and then get more speaking

(13:30):
engagements, like you said, andhave that opportunity to really
have their voice heard andadvocate for the students as
well.
So that's important, yeah, andadvocate for the profession
right as a whole as well.

Dr. Dana Goodier (13:43):
Yeah, yeah, it's always good to hear from
people at conferences who are inthe trenches and working with
the students, cause there thereare a lot of people who are
full-time speakers andconsultants who do the work and
speak at conferences and mightlead those sessions, but for me
I can.
I can tell a lot of the timewho's actually doing the work.

(14:04):
Um, and you know who knowsthose stories from what they're
currently doing, as opposed tosomebody who might've just
learned about.
You know a certain thing thatthey're trying to sell the
schools as a training platform.
Um, and they're just kind ofgoing through the motions.
So you know a certain thing thatthey're trying to sell the
schools as a training platformand they're just kind of going
through the motions.
So, yeah, there's a lot to besaid for people who have that

(14:24):
hands on experience.

Jackie Pelegrin (14:26):
Right, that's true, instead of, like you said,
the people that are constantlyin it all the time and it
becomes probably repetition forthem.
They get, they just get soentrenched in it, right, and it
just becomes second nature forthem.
But for those that want to, youwant that fresh perspective.
I think that's that can bevaluable, for that, to have that

(14:47):
fresh look and perspective atthings for sure.
Yeah, I like that.
That's great.
Yeah, are there any otherchallenges you think like,
especially today?
You know, with the landscape,with technology, do you see that
it can be challenging?
With the way technology keepsevolving?
Now with AI, I mean, it's allover the place has recently

(15:18):
changed and so I'm sure Kthrough 12 is facing that too,
with, you know, making sure thatthere's that ethical part of it
and integrity and things likethat if students are using it as
well.

Dr. Dana Goodier (15:25):
Yeah, I think a lot of the time it's the
organization who has to figureout what kind of policy they're
going to use.
And a lot of schools throughoutthe US in different states and
districts have last year a lotof them, it was in the news
adopted a cell phone policyfinally, like district-wide,
which is about time.
I mean, how long have we hadthe smartphone right?

(15:47):
But, now, like where I'm at,they're using yonder pouches so
the phones are locked up inthese pouches and the kids can't
access them during the day.
So I do think you know okay,that was an initiative a year
ago and you know it's working,because now we're don't don't
have kids who are constantly ontheir phone during class.
But then the next thing is alsodeveloping policies, especially

(16:11):
at the high school level,because that'll feed into the
university level, because thereare a lot of kids at the high
school level because I've taughtEnglish at high school who are
trying to use ChatGPT orwhatever AI to do their
assignments.
It's not always easy forteachers to be able to figure

(16:33):
that out.
It needs to be a school-wide ordistrict-wide policy and you
know having kids learn moreacademic integrity.
You know feedback or asking,you know for maybe an outline
which could be an AI tool, butyou know a lot of those kids

(17:08):
just do the whole paper.

Jackie Pelegrin (17:10):
Yeah, it's challenging, yeah for sure.
And at the university levelit's tough because there's some
instructors that are they justthey're like, they want to
police it and I'm like of beingable to, you know, sit for a job
interview and say that they canuse this tool and different

(17:43):
tools, like ChatGPT, and theysaid, yes, it's an essential
thing.
So, you know, we're trying tofigure out I think we have
pretty much, but just knowingthat there's that limitation and
but, yeah, giving them thetools that they need to know how
to use it ethically, like yousaid, and yeah, and that
academic integrity and digitalliteracy, things like that, so

(18:06):
very important.
So they're starting toimplement this stoplight method.
Where it's green is like yes,you can use it, and here's the
you know the parameters in theassignment, where they
explicitly say you can use it.
And then there's the yellowwhich is like yes, but you know,
with limitations, and then thered is like no, you cannot, you
cannot use it for thisassignment, because we want you

(18:27):
to know, we want to know thatyou can actually do the work and
we can, we can see that youknow, you know the content and
you're not utilizing somethingelse to supplement that.
So, yeah, so it's.
It's good to see that there's.
You know that the districts aredoing that and they're trying
to, you know, implement that.
So yeah, that's great.

(18:49):
Yeah, it's funny about the cellphone policy, because I saw that
I read an article about thatthat they said 31 states have
implemented that with the, that,with the policy, and I'm like
it should be all across right.
But yeah, they showed a map andthey showed pretty much all of
the Western states and thePlains and then a little bit not

(19:10):
too much in the East as much.
The East Coast doesn't reallyhave it as much.
So it seems like our side ofthe country, the West coast,
we're, we've adopted it soonerand then hopefully the East
coast will catch up.
But yeah, it was veryinteresting to see the map was
all it was pretty much yellow onour, on the one half of the
United States, and then theother not quite.

(19:31):
So yeah, I thought that was Hmm, that's interesting, yeah.
So, yeah, I thought that wasHmm, that's interesting.
It's usually, usually it's likeEast and West coast and then it
all comes together.
But yeah, I thought it was kindof kind of unique for sure, but
, as I said, it took long enough.

Dr. Dana Goodier (19:46):
Like it's like yeah because I've had the
phones for years and they'velost instructional time.
And now, oh, now that there'sall this research on, like, oh,
social, emotional, like, there'sbeen research, there's been
bullying, all this, you knowstuff that's coming from cell
phones, but like it took themthat long to finally realize,
okay, maybe we need to dosomething as a system about it.

Jackie Pelegrin (20:07):
Right, I'm hoping that it doesn't take that
long for AI to come around.

Dr. Dana Goodier (20:12):
Yeah, well, it's evolving so fast.
And schools aren't keeping upwith it.

Jackie Pelegrin (20:17):
Right, that's true.
Yeah, so hopefully they canwrap their minds around it a
little bit more.
And because, as they say, thecat's out of the bag and can't
put it back in.
Once it's out, as they say,it's not going anywhere.
So, yeah, that's true, true.

(20:39):
So are there any tips andadvice that you'd like to share
with those who are currently inthe instructional design program
that I teach at Grand CanyonUniversity, or just maybe even
in general, you know, sinceinstructional design is an
education type of industry aswell?

Dr. Dana Goodier (20:50):
Mm-hmm.
Really, I think, just knowingyour audience, knowing what the
outcomes are, looking at thebigger picture first and
scaffolding it's like you woulddo for a lesson for kids.
You want to make sure you havedifferent ways of teaching it

(21:13):
for different learners, ofteaching it for different
learners.
You know making sure also thateverything like if you're
building an online course, forexample you don't always want to
have the same set of types ofassignments.
I think you know that'ssomething that can get a little
bit repetitive.
But if you're looking from fordifferent things for different

(21:35):
students for a variety ofreasons, you want to vary up the
types of assignments and alsothe expectations of what you
would want students to do,keeping the expectations clear.

(22:06):
But also, you know, servingdifferent learning needs.
You know visual, auditory orkinesthetic learning, which
sometimes if you're teachingonline, it's not easy for
kinesthetic, but you could alsoincorporate maybe an activity
where you know a student's outin nature.
You know using something thatthey find out in nature and
writing about it or somethinglike that.
Right there are opportunities toteach to all those learning
styles.

Jackie Pelegrin (22:23):
Right, that's so important.
Yeah, that authentic assessmentyeah, I worked on courses
before I opened it up like apsychology course and it was
eight topics, eight papers allthroughout.
It was eight topics, eightpapers all throughout, and I
thought, wow, not only is thatdaunting and boring for the

(22:43):
students, but for the facultythat have to grade those.
I can't imagine having a paper,you know, and they were like
500 to 750 word, and then someof them were larger, and so by
the time I think it got to topicseven, they were up to like
2000 words and I'm thinking, wow, burnout by the end.
They would not want to writeanymore after that and I and
yeah, I wouldn't want to be theinstructor grading those either

(23:04):
Eight with eight papers, yeah,so that's tough I like.
Yeah, so that's great.
And the scaffolding, you know,that's definitely important as
well.
Yeah, At any level, right, andbeing able to to do that, yeah,
that's great.
Yeah, I love that becausethat's something that we
advocate for.
And and that authenticassessment can be so helpful,

(23:27):
especially with AI.
Right, being able to, you know,go beyond what a P, a paper,
and giving them something thatthey can do, that's more
authentic and real world thatthey'll face as well.
So that's important.
Yeah, kind of helps with bothto be able to do that yeah,
absolutely that's great.

(23:47):
Yeah, is there anything else youcan think of that would be good
advice?
Um, you know, for for this typethe type of role because I I
know in K through 12, usuallysometimes it's called they're
called them instructionaldesigners, sometimes they refer
to them as curriculum coaches,but kind of in that realm right
of being able to to help withcurriculum and professional

(24:08):
development and those types ofthings A lot of my students like
to do and what they want to gointo is helping more with
professional development,training and being able to help
with the curriculum areas.
It's really, really exciting tosee that.

Dr. Dana Goodier (24:23):
Yeah, I think you know, for students who might
be going into working on, youknow, professional development
for adults, it's really knowingthat sometimes if you're working
with teachers, sometimes theycan be the worst students, you
know, and the teachers don'talways appreciate some of the

(24:43):
types of activities, like youknow, going around and writing
on, you know, putting stickynotes on chart paper and those
types of things.
You know I mean there'sdifferent things that can be
done and just making sure thatyou're using your time wisely,
like I was at a professionaldevelopment today that they had
a three and a half hour timeslot but it only took them half

(25:03):
that time but then they didn'twant you to let people out so
early.
So for about 45 minutes of theextra time people are just
sitting there like work withyour school on how you're going
to implement this, but we don'tknow when it're going to
implement this.
But we, you know we don't knowwhen it's going to be
implemented.
So you know, I mean a lot ofthe time.
It's like also knowing how muchtime things are going to take,

(25:23):
versus keeping people, uh,because they're supposed to
fulfill a certain amount ofhours, right, that continuing
education yeah, yeah so just, uh, I would say, be respectful of
people's time but also give themactivities that they might be
able to complete at home, or, uh, via some type of assignment
that's, you know, going to beasynchronous, and do a week or

(25:46):
two later, or something likethat.
That's a good idea, you know.
It's good, uh, for if you'redoing a course, for teachers to
do some independent work as well, or come back after they've
implemented it in the classroomand have a little bit of time to
think about it.

Jackie Pelegrin (26:02):
That's a great idea.
Doing more blended approacheswhere, yeah, where they can do
maybe some pre-work before theycome in to the in-person portion
, do that and then, as youmentioned, do some of it at home
or be able to do like a call toaction, where that's what we do
in a lot of our professionaldevelopment.
We'll give them a call toaction and then 30 days later,

(26:24):
we'll follow up, we'll do a 30minute follow up session and
we'll say, okay, how have youimplemented this?
What are you doing?
Share some you know, somestories, some feedback, and then
they can, they can askquestions and things like that.
So, breaking it up a little bitmore instead of having like one
long two hour session, it reallyhelps because then people are

(26:45):
so, as we know, you know,educators are so busy, so being
able to, like you said, respectthat time and make it valuable
for them and then they don'tcomplain about it Right and go,
that was a waste of my time and,yeah, I don't, I don't want to
do that ever again, and some ofmy students have have mentioned

(27:06):
that before.
They're like yeah, I went tothe.
You know, there's like adiscussion question in one of
the classes and it talks aboutwhat was the experience that was
either just wasn't effective oryou think could be changed, and
what would you do to change itas far as training or
professional development, andthey really, uh, they really go
into that.
So it's very interesting tohear their stories and and um

(27:27):
kind of read it and and knowthat, yeah, they experience it
too.
So, yeah, that's that'sinteresting for, yeah, that's
good advice Absolutely.
I like that Great.
Is there anything else youwanted to share with the
listeners?
Anything else that comes tomind?

Dr. Dana Goodier (27:46):
Well, I mentioned my book Out of the
Trenches Stories of ResilientEducators.
That's available on Amazon andyou know, even if your students
aren't going into, you knowteaching roles.
It's really that type of bookwhere you're thinking about the
role that you're doing withineven edu adjacent what
instructional design is Right,and, you know, exploring the why

(28:10):
.
What got you into that?
You know, and after you know ayear or two, or if you're in a
trench, asking yourself, is thisstill fulfilling your why?
And exploring like, maybe, ifyou're writing for a certain
audience, maybe consider writingfor a different audience for a

(28:30):
while.
Right, you could be writing forelementary ed as opposed to
adult ed, you know, and that'sstill developing curricula.
So I think that's.
There are definitely tips andyou know there's different
talking points and you know it'sa type of a workbook where

(28:51):
people can ask themselves anddiscuss questions with
colleagues.
So definitely pick that up.
People can listen to my podcastout of the trenches.
I know you have my YouTubechannel linked and you can also
access them on Apple.
Wherever you get your podcast,there's a new episode every week
and, yeah, just follow me onsocial media.

(29:12):
And if you have any questionsabout, you know, maybe getting
into K-12 instructional designand professional development,
but not quite sure how to goabout it.
Just send me a message and I'lltry to help you.
You know, answer your questionsabout, you know, getting into

(29:34):
that space?
That would be great.

Jackie Pelegrin (29:35):
I love that.
Thank you, dana.
I appreciate that because thatyou know getting into that space
, that would be great.
I love that.
Thank you, dana.
I appreciate that because thatyou know that's a good point
because a lot of my students,when they when they get their
portfolio put together, ifthey're in K through 12 or
they're in corporate or highered in some capacity especially
my students that are in Kthrough 12 education they tend
to, their artifacts tend to andtheir projects tend to be

(29:57):
focused on that area thatthey're in.
And I always let them know youneed to have a diversified
portfolio because we are goingto apply for jobs.
I mean, instructional design isso varied it can be anything
from K through 12, corporate,military, nonprofit so they have
to be able to think outside ofthat realm of what they're in,

(30:21):
and so I always mention to themgo outside your comfort zone a
little bit it's kind of what youmentioned and be able to do
that.
So that's great.
I love that.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, I'll make sure to linkeverything in the show notes so
that way everybody has that, andthat's great.
You have your podcast thatcomes out every week too, so
it's great to know that there'seducational podcasts out there

(30:42):
that are serving the community.
I love it, great.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on the show today, and I
look forward to having mylisteners gain some great
insight and picking up your bookas well.

Dr. Dana Goodier (30:56):
Thanks so much for having me.

Jackie Pelegrin (30:58):
Thank you, dana , appreciate it.
Thank you for taking some timeto listen to this podcast
episode today.
Your support means the world tome.
If you'd like to help keep thepodcast going, you can share it
with a friend or colleague,leave a heartfelt review or
offer a monetary contribution.
Every act of support, big orsmall, makes a difference and

(31:19):
I'm truly thankful for you.
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