August 6, 2025 • 29 mins
Have you ever caught yourself mindlessly eating chocolate or clicking “next episode” on Netflix into the early hours, even when you’re no longer enjoying it? Brenda and Catherine talk about the “hungry ghost” state: a craving that seems bottomless, never fully satisfied.
In this episode, they explore the Buddhist concept of the hungry ghost (Preta in Sanskrit), beings with enormous bellies and tiny mouths, eternally yearning but never fulfilled, and how this ancient metaphor shows up in modern life. Whether it's through binge-watching, emotional eating, impulse shopping, or draining relationship patterns, they reveal how these behaviors often point to deeper unmet needs.
Drawing from their own stories (yes, including Hershey’s Kisses and online shopping sprees), they offer a compassionate lens on what it means to be caught in cycles of compulsive behavior. Rather than shaming these patterns, they see them as messengers—nudging us to ask: What am I truly hungry for?
This conversation invites listeners into a deeper relationship with desire—not as something to control, but as something to understand. The journey isn’t about discipline or perfection; it’s about awareness, honesty, and the courage to meet our true needs.
Episode Highlights
- Hungry ghost behaviors can show up as binge-eating, excessive shopping, or endless scrolling, etc
- The Buddhist image: big belly, pinhole mouth ~ always hungry, never satisfied
- Awareness is the first step to interrupting compulsive cycles
- Self-compassion is essential; shame only deepens the hunger
- Our culture promotes both deprivation and overconsumption, especially for women
- The question “What do I truly need?” brings clarity
- These patterns often point to meaningful desires we’ve been taught to suppress
- Sometimes, we must move through the compulsive phase before we reach true nourishment
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire, piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible
for our desire.
Welcome back, family, friends,listeners.
(01:36):
So excited to be here withBrenda, we are diving in doing a
few episodes on desire, alldifferent levels, and at least
that's what we're hoping to do.
We haven't recorded them yet,so maybe I don't have to talk
about it just yet, but that's inthe plans and as we're
recording thus far, somethinghas popped up to the surface
that we may have talked about inpassing in other episodes but
(02:00):
we haven't talked about, gonereally into it, and it's this
phrase that many teachers say inour lineage, called the hungry
ghost.
And of course, I'm joined herewith Brenda and we're both super
excited to talk about it.
And it's this idea that we'restarving and this ghost the
(02:23):
hunger is a ghost because youcan't ever really satiate it or
catch it.
It's a spirit with thisinsatiable craving, and there's
actually a book on it, in therealm of looking at it from the
perspective of addiction, fromgorgeous author Gabor Mate, and
(02:45):
his book is called In the Realmof Hungry Ghosts.
I don't really know when it waspublished, so I can't say if
well, actually I can't say ifthe teachers that I've had that
say hungry ghosts, if it camefrom there or if this has just
been a term that's sort of likein the space, in the air,
because I've actually heardpeople talk about it very often
(03:06):
and when I did this quick likeAI search, because you know
that's all the rave nowadays.
It talks about how the book issort of urging readers to
recognize that addiction, like,let's look at addiction as a
universal human vulnerabilityrather than a moral failing,
(03:27):
like, oh, this person failedbecause they're addicted to this
thing.
We're not necessarily going tobe talking about it from the
perspective hungry ghost,talking about it from the
perspective of addiction, butreally even behavioral patterns
can be considered addictions.
The way Gabor talks about it.
He'll say that addiction is.
It's not necessarily a choice,it's rather it's a response to
(03:51):
emotional pain.
It's a response that's stemmingfrom a specific trauma.
Again, we're not going to go sodeep into that, but we're going
to talk about it from theperspective of desire.
You're finally listening to it,whether it's a whisper or just
(04:12):
really loud for you at this timein your growth.
You start to feel it and it'ssuper scary because you're just
so dang hungry.
Scary because you're just sodang hungry, brenda, I love when
I said so dang hungry.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Brenda's eyes got really big, so hungry.
It's such a familiar place forme at the beginning of my
spiritual awakening, my personaldevelopment journey, to you
know, in looking back now Icould be like, oh wow, I was
experiencing a hungry ghost.
It's actually a Buddhistteaching.
It's called Prata in Sanskritand it's one of the six realms
of existence, which I thoughtwas pretty cool.
And this is really cool.
(05:01):
The hungry ghost is depictedwith these huge empty bellies
and these like tiny pinholemouths.
And for me, like sometimes I'llstill experience hungry ghost.
You know like I experiencedthat recently when I had a bag
of Hershey Kisses and after aparty, and I was like, oh, I'm
(05:24):
going to have some of theseHershey Kisses after a party.
And I was like, oh, I'm goingto have some of these Hershey
Kisses.
I was eating those in hungryghost fashion.
I was never satisfied.
It was like I would see them inthe wrapper, that shiny silver
wrapper.
I put it in my mouth, eat it,even try to eat it slowly, and
it wasn't even down my throatyet and I was like I need
(05:44):
another one, I need another one.
And I just was.
I watched myself be in thatpattern.
It's like a perfect example ofthe hungry ghost, like it's just
not satisfying and your braintells you, oh, I need another
one and then I'll be satisfied,but you can never quite touch it
.
You know, like I'll experiencethat with binging shows,
(06:06):
sometimes Like I'm all forwatching Netflix, but there is a
point where it shifts frombeing fulfilling and enjoying it
to being hungry ghost, likeit's trying to fill something.
Fill something.
(06:28):
There's some need that we have,that we try to fill it in this
way.
That's not really true and it'snever actually satisfied.
It's like having an itch thatyou can never scratch and it's
kind of maddening and you thinkyou have to actually keep
scratching it.
Yeah, or have another Hersheykiss, but that's not the the
thing you know when you're inthat.
It's like slowing down and justsaying the awareness right,
(06:51):
what's actually going on here?
Oh, I'm in this behavior, andthen how can I shift it?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
It's so tough and I think hungry ghost shows up,
like you said.
You gave a great example offood.
Hungry ghost shows up, like yousaid.
You gave a great example offood.
I've seen it come up around alot with money, like when people
, myself included.
So I have had this experiencewhere I love this bag, so I need
to have the bag in every singlecolor.
I love these jeans.
I need to have these jeans inevery single color.
(07:19):
I love this t-shirt, so I needto have this t-shirt in every
single color.
It's from a place.
Probably the wound if I were tothink about the wound behind
that hungry ghost is that I hadnot had that form of income, I
had not been able to give thatto myself, and so now I'm just
excessive, right, like agluttonous, and the hungry ghost
(07:39):
sensation is more, if I had to.
It's sort of you're buyingsomething, eating something,
experiencing something, but itdoesn't really connect.
It doesn't have a shut offvalve.
There's no moment where you sayto yourself oh, I'm satisfied,
(08:02):
like I don't need anymore, likeI feel full, I feel't need any
more, I feel full, I feelcomplete, I'm satiated, I don't
need more of this potato chip, Idon't need more of this GMO
food, or I don't need any more.
What's that stuff that they putin Chinese food?
Msg, that's it.
I'm thinking of Chinese food,where you're just like.
You're so full but you're likelet me just take another bite,
(08:26):
one more bite, one more bite.
And this happens often,sometimes in the beginning of
romance, where you want to seeeach other every single day or
you want to know every singledetail of that person's day,
like what did they do?
Who did they?
Where did they go?
Who did they talk to?
Where have they been?
It's sort of I want to knoweverything about you, because
(08:49):
it's almost like there's thisunderlying scarcity underneath,
in addition to I can't besatiated, but I also crave to be
satiated and I'm so afraidcrave to be satiated and I'm so
afraid that this feeling won'tgo away.
(09:10):
How do I binge, whether it'sthe Netflix or the cookies, or
for some people, then we can gointo addictions or a hungry
ghost of when people say thisalso happens when people have
gone their whole lives and theyhaven't said their truth.
And now they're having aconversation with someone and
they're like but hang on, I'mnot finished, but hang on, let
(09:33):
me.
And they're talking for like 45minutes and they have no clue
that they've been talking thatwhole time and they've taken you
on this whole story ride.
They just so desire to bewitnessed and seen.
They haven't potentiallyexperienced that enough and they
just want it so bad.
(09:54):
There are tons of ways to lookat this.
I'm sure we're not going toexhaust the ways on this podcast
.
We're going to talk about a fewof them.
The ways on this podcast.
We're going to talk about a fewof them.
And I would say the first stepis noticing I'm hungry and no
matter what I eat or listen toor drink or whatever the
(10:16):
compulsion is, I don't feelsatisfied.
It's a great time to pause ifyou have the awareness.
The awareness is needed.
Without the awareness, there'snothing.
And don't get me wrong, becausesometimes you have the
awareness and yet you stillcan't stop the compulsion.
(10:39):
Like you have the awareness andyou're not ready to let it go.
Yet you have the awareness thatyou're binging all day on
Netflix and you're not ready tolet it go.
Yet you have the awareness thatyou're binging all day on
Netflix and you're not ready tolet it go.
You have the awareness that youlove to binge and you're not
willing to let go of thetelevision, and then we do it in
steps.
So one thing that I want tobring forward is we need
(11:00):
awareness.
We sort of one way of dealingwith it.
After the awareness is reallylooking at ourselves like
toddlers.
Here I am two, three years old,in an adult body around this
particular piece and it's goingto be really hard for me to take
responsibility.
I think about toddlers and alltoddlers say is like no, stop
(11:23):
that.
No, don't eat that.
No.
About toddlers and all toddlerssay is like no, stop that.
No, don't eat that.
No, don't do that.
No, no one can tell usdifferent.
We're sort of in our addiction,in our experiencing of whatever
that we've been starved of.
We don't want to pause becausewe just want what we want.
(11:43):
Pause because we just want whatwe want.
And it's really hard to beresponsible there and let's say
you have it, you let yourselfhave it, you've binged.
You saw yourself as a toddler,you saw their awareness and you
were like I don't care, I'm justgoing to give it to myself,
no-transcript.
And then, when you're almost onthe other side, the thing I tend
(12:04):
to see is that we get full ofshame and then we're embarrassed
, we're like uh-oh, I can'tbelieve I said that.
I can't believe I did that.
I can't believe I bought that.
I can't believe I behaved thatway.
(12:24):
I can't believe I treated thatperson that way.
Bought that, I can't believe Ibehaved that way.
I can't believe I treated thatperson that way.
It's sort of this disbeliefbecause once the fog lifts and
we don't have the compulsionanymore, of course we have all
this agency and we're like whycouldn't I?
And I'll go back to my purseexample I am in a stage or a
(12:46):
season of my life where I'mreally putting my attention on
my money and my finances andreally wanting to adult there
and whenever I pause and thinkabout the things I've spent on
or done, I'm like I could havebeen retired by now.
But I have to know then what Iknow now and it's really not
(13:09):
fair to myself.
Then, after I beat myself upfor a little bit because there
will be that for some of us Ihave to remember that it's very
possible and extremely likelythat the reason why I can be
financially sober now, thereason why I don't have to buy
(13:32):
five t-shirts in differentcolors because I like it, is
because I had the experience Iwas able to touch my hungry
ghost, able to see it and reallybe with, oh, I actually don't
need more than what I need.
I see you shaking your head,brenda.
What comes up?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
It's such a beautiful example and you brought it
right to what I was thinking wasapproval for the process and
approval for the journey andapproval for where we are.
It's so easy to go into shameafterwards and say, oh my God,
look at, look at this.
I bought this shirt in everycolor and I did this so many
times in my life.
Look how much money I spent.
Or I didn't really need that,or I didn't really wear that,
whatever it is.
(14:17):
Beating ourselves up neverhelps.
Ask me how I know.
But approval for the processthis is how we learn.
We don't come here in ourbodies, incarnated on this earth
, with all of these lessons.
I don't know where we got thisidea that we're just supposed to
know everything, but we arehere in a body as a spiritual
(14:41):
being, to learn things, to haveexperiences, to grow, and you
know, we fall and we mess up andwe spend too much money or we
have sex with the wrong person.
Whatever the thing is that wedo or did, we can use it as the
practice for our life, for thefuture.
(15:02):
This is how why, when we're inour 50s, we've just get so wise,
because we've had so many ofthese examples and being
starving as a woman is a placeon the map.
In our culture.
It just is.
We're not oriented tonourishment, we're oriented to
(15:28):
problems, we're oriented todeprivation.
It's celebrated for women todeprive ourselves and be a
martyr.
So celebrated, right, I mean.
So we really have to look atthat.
So, after we go through thisphase and we filled ourselves up
(15:50):
with whatever it is that weneeded, it's very easy to go
into shame or regret and say, ohmy God, look how much food I
ate, look how much sex I had,look all the things that I
bought.
It's so easy to do that and I'mgoing to argue that even that's
(16:11):
okay.
That's also a place on the map.
You know, we're not saying youshould never go there, but we
are saying that having awarenessand all of these locations is
really key for the life that youwant.
Because do I ever go into shameor regret?
Sure, I do, and I've spent alot of time there in the past.
(16:31):
But now, when it happens, I'mlike oh, this is not a good ride
, I don't want to go down thisride anymore.
And how do I know that?
Because I've had the experience.
I just want to review and justsay being starved is a place on
the map, or if you're listeningand you're like, oh my God, I'm
so hungry, I don't have X, y, zthat I want.
(16:54):
Start to give it to yourself.
And there is a point that youget nourished, there is a point
that you get full and that youfeel satiated when you start to
feed yourself whatever it isthat you want, and then that's
almost like when the game reallystarts Up.
(17:15):
Until then, you've just beenputting gas in the car, but now
you have a full tank.
Where do you want to go?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Where do you want to go?
Yes, you hit the nail on thehead.
We can never shame ourselves towealth.
We can't shame ourselves tofullness.
We can't shame ourselves toconnection.
We can't shame ourselves tostop the hungry ghost ride we
(17:47):
can.
I think it's really hard to putthe genie back in the bottle
Once you start to feed onwhatever you're hungry for.
It's sort of like you got thetaste and I mean that has to be
like pulling a toddler from aniPad.
It's just not when you're inpublic and the kid just loses
(18:10):
its mind.
I'm thinking it's just notsomething that can be done.
Really.
It's sort of little by little,checking in oh, I just binged,
or I just I'm thinking of whatother example I can give here
(18:31):
where I can't.
I feel like I don't have thewords right now to express what
it feels like once you're there,like in the feeding frenzy of
whatever you're feeding on, it'salmost like you cannot hit the
brakes.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Well, you're mid-process.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yes, you're not on the other side.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, you're not on the other side, so it's not
natural to stop right.
It's like trying to stop avideo game in the middle.
Well, it didn't end, you didn'tget anywhere yet.
So it makes sense that it'shard to stop because you don't
have, you didn't get the lessonsyet.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I feel like, even if you stop, even if you use some
form of other force, whetherit's religion or, I don't know,
fasting or anything that's goingto have you stop the behavior
without you really understandingwhat the behavior is.
Feeding is sort of moot becausethe emptiness is still there.
(19:35):
It's sort of like the actionlets you know that there's an
emptiness.
Feeling the hungry ghost letsyou know I'm starved and I need
something.
I need to fill this.
But not feeding yourself isn'tthe answer.
I understand that sometimes wechoose things or we're hungry
for things and we might be usingthings that are harmful to
(19:57):
ourselves, when they'readdictions and things like that,
or gambling, or you're spendingmoney, you're living outside of
your means and you have debt,or you blow up your life.
They're not comfortable things.
The hungry ghost is not acomfortable place.
As you see yourself behave inall of these ways that
potentially the higher versionof you is like no stop.
(20:22):
But I would be it's very sad ifwe had not recorded on this,
because I think it's somethingthat's so important and we're in
a society that constantlyapplauds discipline, and I think
discipline is great, I thinkcommitment is great, I think
desire is great and askingyourself.
(20:43):
You know what do I want?
What's one small step for me toget to where I want?
But if you have a hungry ghostin the room and you know it's
there, it really has to beaddressed.
It is basically an elephant,like.
You have to address it, becauselife will just not be life with
(21:06):
a hungry ghost and I think ithas that level of clunk, that
level of hey, take a look at melike this is important, hmm, I
love the gravity in which yousaid that it really landed.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
You know, we do it to ourselves too, in a way,
meaning there's something wewant and we don't give it to
ourselves, and then we'reconstantly trying to fill that
need.
For example, you really, reallywant a steak at that fabulous
restaurant.
(21:46):
You could taste it right, butyou have all these reasons why
you can't go there it's tooexpensive, it's too far.
Whatever, your reasons are thatyou're not giving yourself that
steak, and so you're constantlygoing for the hot dogs and the
hamburgers and it's notsatisfying, like maybe it's good
(22:09):
and there's nothing wrong withthat, but it doesn't hit the
mark.
You want that steak, you wantthat steak dinner.
Maybe you want the wholeexperience, maybe you want to
get dressed up, maybe you want,like, a whole experience around
the steak dinner, but if you'rejust going to the food truck for
the hot dog, it doesn't hitright.
(22:32):
And so sometimes we do need toask ourselves what is it that I
truly want and how can I givethis to myself?
And that can happen anywhere onthe journey.
I think I have a lot moreawareness around that now, and
even if I'm binging Netflixafter a while, there comes a
(22:53):
point where it's not satisfyinganymore.
And what is it that I reallyneed?
I have to ask myself what do Ineed right now, because it's
certainly not another show,certainly not another episode,
right, and so can I really givemyself what I need is the
question, and that's where theresponsibility comes in for
(23:14):
giving ourselves what we needand asking for it, which is
quite vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I just spoke about feeling the hungry ghost and
having to address it, becauseit's like the elephant in the
room.
And I love what you're talkingabout.
You're talking about awareness,like can we really be with?
What am I really needing?
Where am I under resourced?
What is the resource?
Can I give it to myself?
And the hungry ghost is real.
It's very possible.
(23:49):
What's underlying thatcompulsion is not something
you're ready to face, and so thehungry ghost is going for
whatever chip or whatever fastfood or whatever fast food
version of what you're hungryfor, and that's also, as Brenda
(24:09):
says, a place on the map.
At the end of the day, what Iwould love for you guys to take
away from this, if you'relistening, is that Hungry Ghost
is real.
It's not an excuse like oh, I'mjust doing this because I'm
Hungry Ghost.
Because the goal, even ifyou're binging on whatever you
want not necessarily food, butwhatever you're hungry for, if
(24:31):
you're going through a bingephase, the goal is to be on the
other side, and sometimes theonly way on the other side is to
go through it.
Whatever that, it is for you tobring in as much personal
responsibility as possible,understanding that there's not
that much responsibility therebecause our brains aren't really
(24:52):
working.
We're sort of in a compulsionbecause it's touching on a wound
and so there's not that muchthinking happening.
The binge is part of theexperience.
Taking responsibility is partof the experience.
The binge is part of theexperience.
Taking responsibility is partof the experience.
And what we would love for youto do is to not make shame part
(25:14):
of the experience.
Like, is there a way that, eventhough you know you're avoiding
this thing by being in yourcompulsion with hungry ghosts,
even though you're starved andyou just feed, feed, feed and
nothing satisfying, can youremember that this part was
(25:36):
really hard to put down?
Can you have so much love andcompassion for yourself on the
other side?
I see this with affairs right.
I see this with eatingdisorders, shopping disorders.
It doesn't have to get to thatdegree for everyone, but it does
(25:56):
exist and we're just as GaborMate says, we're just
experiencing like a human moment.
It's not necessarily failure inthat you're a failed human or
you don't have morals and values.
It's just oh wow, I was reallytaken over by this because I had
this void and I just did notknow how to fill it.
(26:17):
And then when you ultimately,when you know better, you do
better.
And yeah, when you know better,you do better.
I see Brenda snapping.
Is there something you wantedto add?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I don't think a lot of people are talking about this
.
I don't think this is somethingthat's well known in our
culture about the hungry ghost,I think we just look at it as
consumptive or rude or, you know, selfish and it is a place on
the map.
You know, selfish and it is aplace on the map.
(26:53):
And when we have starvedourselves for so long and we
suddenly and we start feedingourselves, we need to eat.
We need to eat and we can enjoyit.
We could just enjoy it.
And I don't think the hungryghost has responsibility inside
of it, has responsibility insideof it innately.
So just enjoy it.
Just enjoy it.
(27:13):
Enjoy it and then, when it'stime to shift, do something
different.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Thank you so much for that.
That brings something to mindfor me.
I love what Rhonda just broughtin the room, which is like when
we think about the hungry ghostand we don't necessarily call it
that, we don't call it like aninner compulsion, and it's
really easy to be witnessingsomeone else in their compulsion
and then we have tons ofopinions and judgments about
that.
Oh, my goodness, this person isbeing rude, this person is being
selfish, this person is beingconsumptive.
(27:45):
And I want to gently tap you onthe shoulder and say, if this
is you, if you have theseopinions about somebody else
that's going through their thing, whatever that is, this is
about them, it's not about us.
If someone's being selfish, itmight have impact on you, but
it's not because of you, it isnot about you.
(28:09):
It doesn't mean, because youthis, they, that this is just
about them.
Or if you are the person that'sconsuming and someone is
looking at you and they'recalling you selfish and you rude
and you consumptive, yes, youmay be those things, but it's
not about them, it's about youand where you are on the map, so
(28:29):
I'm happy that we got to bringthis subject forward.
We're definitely not saving theworld with this one in the fact
that we have not gone into thereally deep nooks and crannies
around it, predominantly becauseit's so individual.
It's like a thumbprint, afingerprint, a cornea.
We're all going to experiencethe hungry ghost in our own way.
(28:52):
We all have our own wounds andour own ouchies that come to the
surface and bubble up for us.
It's not blanket across theboard, and so some of this may
have resonated, not all of it.
Please take what resonates.
Leave the rest.
If something resonated for you,please, please, please, leave
(29:15):
us an Apple podcast review.
Leave us some stars.
Send us a screenshot Until nexttime.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire, piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible
for our desire.
Welcome back, family, friends,listeners.
(01:36):
So excited to be here withBrenda, we are diving in doing a
few episodes on desire, alldifferent levels, and at least
that's what we're hoping to do.
We haven't recorded them yet,so maybe I don't have to talk
about it just yet, but that's inthe plans and as we're
recording thus far, somethinghas popped up to the surface
that we may have talked about inpassing in other episodes but
(02:00):
we haven't talked about, gonereally into it, and it's this
phrase that many teachers say inour lineage, called the hungry
ghost.
And of course, I'm joined herewith Brenda and we're both super
excited to talk about it.
And it's this idea that we'restarving and this ghost the
(02:23):
hunger is a ghost because youcan't ever really satiate it or
catch it.
It's a spirit with thisinsatiable craving, and there's
actually a book on it, in therealm of looking at it from the
perspective of addiction, fromgorgeous author Gabor Mate, and
(02:45):
his book is called In the Realmof Hungry Ghosts.
I don't really know when it waspublished, so I can't say if
well, actually I can't say ifthe teachers that I've had that
say hungry ghosts, if it camefrom there or if this has just
been a term that's sort of likein the space, in the air,
because I've actually heardpeople talk about it very often
(03:06):
and when I did this quick likeAI search, because you know
that's all the rave nowadays.
It talks about how the book issort of urging readers to
recognize that addiction, like,let's look at addiction as a
universal human vulnerabilityrather than a moral failing,
(03:27):
like, oh, this person failedbecause they're addicted to this
thing.
We're not necessarily going tobe talking about it from the
perspective hungry ghost,talking about it from the
perspective of addiction, butreally even behavioral patterns
can be considered addictions.
The way Gabor talks about it.
He'll say that addiction is.
It's not necessarily a choice,it's rather it's a response to
(03:51):
emotional pain.
It's a response that's stemmingfrom a specific trauma.
Again, we're not going to go sodeep into that, but we're going
to talk about it from theperspective of desire.
You're finally listening to it,whether it's a whisper or just
(04:12):
really loud for you at this timein your growth.
You start to feel it and it'ssuper scary because you're just
so dang hungry.
Scary because you're just sodang hungry, brenda, I love when
I said so dang hungry.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Brenda's eyes got really big, so hungry.
It's such a familiar place forme at the beginning of my
spiritual awakening, my personaldevelopment journey, to you
know, in looking back now Icould be like, oh wow, I was
experiencing a hungry ghost.
It's actually a Buddhistteaching.
It's called Prata in Sanskritand it's one of the six realms
of existence, which I thoughtwas pretty cool.
And this is really cool.
(05:01):
The hungry ghost is depictedwith these huge empty bellies
and these like tiny pinholemouths.
And for me, like sometimes I'llstill experience hungry ghost.
You know like I experiencedthat recently when I had a bag
of Hershey Kisses and after aparty, and I was like, oh, I'm
(05:24):
going to have some of theseHershey Kisses after a party.
And I was like, oh, I'm goingto have some of these Hershey
Kisses.
I was eating those in hungryghost fashion.
I was never satisfied.
It was like I would see them inthe wrapper, that shiny silver
wrapper.
I put it in my mouth, eat it,even try to eat it slowly, and
it wasn't even down my throatyet and I was like I need
(05:44):
another one, I need another one.
And I just was.
I watched myself be in thatpattern.
It's like a perfect example ofthe hungry ghost, like it's just
not satisfying and your braintells you, oh, I need another
one and then I'll be satisfied,but you can never quite touch it
.
You know, like I'll experiencethat with binging shows,
(06:06):
sometimes Like I'm all forwatching Netflix, but there is a
point where it shifts frombeing fulfilling and enjoying it
to being hungry ghost, likeit's trying to fill something.
Fill something.
(06:28):
There's some need that we have,that we try to fill it in this
way.
That's not really true and it'snever actually satisfied.
It's like having an itch thatyou can never scratch and it's
kind of maddening and you thinkyou have to actually keep
scratching it.
Yeah, or have another Hersheykiss, but that's not the the
thing you know when you're inthat.
It's like slowing down and justsaying the awareness right,
(06:51):
what's actually going on here?
Oh, I'm in this behavior, andthen how can I shift it?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
It's so tough and I think hungry ghost shows up,
like you said.
You gave a great example offood.
Hungry ghost shows up, like yousaid.
You gave a great example offood.
I've seen it come up around alot with money, like when people
, myself included.
So I have had this experiencewhere I love this bag, so I need
to have the bag in every singlecolor.
I love these jeans.
I need to have these jeans inevery single color.
(07:19):
I love this t-shirt, so I needto have this t-shirt in every
single color.
It's from a place.
Probably the wound if I were tothink about the wound behind
that hungry ghost is that I hadnot had that form of income, I
had not been able to give thatto myself, and so now I'm just
excessive, right, like agluttonous, and the hungry ghost
(07:39):
sensation is more, if I had to.
It's sort of you're buyingsomething, eating something,
experiencing something, but itdoesn't really connect.
It doesn't have a shut offvalve.
There's no moment where you sayto yourself oh, I'm satisfied,
(08:02):
like I don't need anymore, likeI feel full, I feel't need any
more, I feel full, I feelcomplete, I'm satiated, I don't
need more of this potato chip, Idon't need more of this GMO
food, or I don't need any more.
What's that stuff that they putin Chinese food?
Msg, that's it.
I'm thinking of Chinese food,where you're just like.
You're so full but you're likelet me just take another bite,
(08:26):
one more bite, one more bite.
And this happens often,sometimes in the beginning of
romance, where you want to seeeach other every single day or
you want to know every singledetail of that person's day,
like what did they do?
Who did they?
Where did they go?
Who did they talk to?
Where have they been?
It's sort of I want to knoweverything about you, because
(08:49):
it's almost like there's thisunderlying scarcity underneath,
in addition to I can't besatiated, but I also crave to be
satiated and I'm so afraidcrave to be satiated and I'm so
afraid that this feeling won'tgo away.
(09:10):
How do I binge, whether it'sthe Netflix or the cookies, or
for some people, then we can gointo addictions or a hungry
ghost of when people say thisalso happens when people have
gone their whole lives and theyhaven't said their truth.
And now they're having aconversation with someone and
they're like but hang on, I'mnot finished, but hang on, let
(09:33):
me.
And they're talking for like 45minutes and they have no clue
that they've been talking thatwhole time and they've taken you
on this whole story ride.
They just so desire to bewitnessed and seen.
They haven't potentiallyexperienced that enough and they
just want it so bad.
(09:54):
There are tons of ways to lookat this.
I'm sure we're not going toexhaust the ways on this podcast
.
We're going to talk about a fewof them.
The ways on this podcast.
We're going to talk about a fewof them.
And I would say the first stepis noticing I'm hungry and no
matter what I eat or listen toor drink or whatever the
(10:16):
compulsion is, I don't feelsatisfied.
It's a great time to pause ifyou have the awareness.
The awareness is needed.
Without the awareness, there'snothing.
And don't get me wrong, becausesometimes you have the
awareness and yet you stillcan't stop the compulsion.
(10:39):
Like you have the awareness andyou're not ready to let it go.
Yet you have the awareness thatyou're binging all day on
Netflix and you're not ready tolet it go.
Yet you have the awareness thatyou're binging all day on
Netflix and you're not ready tolet it go.
You have the awareness that youlove to binge and you're not
willing to let go of thetelevision, and then we do it in
steps.
So one thing that I want tobring forward is we need
(11:00):
awareness.
We sort of one way of dealingwith it.
After the awareness is reallylooking at ourselves like
toddlers.
Here I am two, three years old,in an adult body around this
particular piece and it's goingto be really hard for me to take
responsibility.
I think about toddlers and alltoddlers say is like no, stop
(11:23):
that.
No, don't eat that.
No.
About toddlers and all toddlerssay is like no, stop that.
No, don't eat that.
No, don't do that.
No, no one can tell usdifferent.
We're sort of in our addiction,in our experiencing of whatever
that we've been starved of.
We don't want to pause becausewe just want what we want.
(11:43):
Pause because we just want whatwe want.
And it's really hard to beresponsible there and let's say
you have it, you let yourselfhave it, you've binged.
You saw yourself as a toddler,you saw their awareness and you
were like I don't care, I'm justgoing to give it to myself,
no-transcript.
And then, when you're almost onthe other side, the thing I tend
(12:04):
to see is that we get full ofshame and then we're embarrassed
, we're like uh-oh, I can'tbelieve I said that.
I can't believe I did that.
I can't believe I bought that.
I can't believe I behaved thatway.
(12:24):
I can't believe I treated thatperson that way.
Bought that, I can't believe Ibehaved that way.
I can't believe I treated thatperson that way.
It's sort of this disbeliefbecause once the fog lifts and
we don't have the compulsionanymore, of course we have all
this agency and we're like whycouldn't I?
And I'll go back to my purseexample I am in a stage or a
(12:46):
season of my life where I'mreally putting my attention on
my money and my finances andreally wanting to adult there
and whenever I pause and thinkabout the things I've spent on
or done, I'm like I could havebeen retired by now.
But I have to know then what Iknow now and it's really not
(13:09):
fair to myself.
Then, after I beat myself upfor a little bit because there
will be that for some of us Ihave to remember that it's very
possible and extremely likelythat the reason why I can be
financially sober now, thereason why I don't have to buy
(13:32):
five t-shirts in differentcolors because I like it, is
because I had the experience Iwas able to touch my hungry
ghost, able to see it and reallybe with, oh, I actually don't
need more than what I need.
I see you shaking your head,brenda.
What comes up?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
It's such a beautiful example and you brought it
right to what I was thinking wasapproval for the process and
approval for the journey andapproval for where we are.
It's so easy to go into shameafterwards and say, oh my God,
look at, look at this.
I bought this shirt in everycolor and I did this so many
times in my life.
Look how much money I spent.
Or I didn't really need that,or I didn't really wear that,
whatever it is.
(14:17):
Beating ourselves up neverhelps.
Ask me how I know.
But approval for the processthis is how we learn.
We don't come here in ourbodies, incarnated on this earth
, with all of these lessons.
I don't know where we got thisidea that we're just supposed to
know everything, but we arehere in a body as a spiritual
(14:41):
being, to learn things, to haveexperiences, to grow, and you
know, we fall and we mess up andwe spend too much money or we
have sex with the wrong person.
Whatever the thing is that wedo or did, we can use it as the
practice for our life, for thefuture.
(15:02):
This is how why, when we're inour 50s, we've just get so wise,
because we've had so many ofthese examples and being
starving as a woman is a placeon the map.
In our culture.
It just is.
We're not oriented tonourishment, we're oriented to
(15:28):
problems, we're oriented todeprivation.
It's celebrated for women todeprive ourselves and be a
martyr.
So celebrated, right, I mean.
So we really have to look atthat.
So, after we go through thisphase and we filled ourselves up
(15:50):
with whatever it is that weneeded, it's very easy to go
into shame or regret and say, ohmy God, look how much food I
ate, look how much sex I had,look all the things that I
bought.
It's so easy to do that and I'mgoing to argue that even that's
(16:11):
okay.
That's also a place on the map.
You know, we're not saying youshould never go there, but we
are saying that having awarenessand all of these locations is
really key for the life that youwant.
Because do I ever go into shameor regret?
Sure, I do, and I've spent alot of time there in the past.
(16:31):
But now, when it happens, I'mlike oh, this is not a good ride
, I don't want to go down thisride anymore.
And how do I know that?
Because I've had the experience.
I just want to review and justsay being starved is a place on
the map, or if you're listeningand you're like, oh my God, I'm
so hungry, I don't have X, y, zthat I want.
(16:54):
Start to give it to yourself.
And there is a point that youget nourished, there is a point
that you get full and that youfeel satiated when you start to
feed yourself whatever it isthat you want, and then that's
almost like when the game reallystarts Up.
(17:15):
Until then, you've just beenputting gas in the car, but now
you have a full tank.
Where do you want to go?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Where do you want to go?
Yes, you hit the nail on thehead.
We can never shame ourselves towealth.
We can't shame ourselves tofullness.
We can't shame ourselves toconnection.
We can't shame ourselves tostop the hungry ghost ride we
(17:47):
can.
I think it's really hard to putthe genie back in the bottle
Once you start to feed onwhatever you're hungry for.
It's sort of like you got thetaste and I mean that has to be
like pulling a toddler from aniPad.
It's just not when you're inpublic and the kid just loses
(18:10):
its mind.
I'm thinking it's just notsomething that can be done.
Really.
It's sort of little by little,checking in oh, I just binged,
or I just I'm thinking of whatother example I can give here
(18:31):
where I can't.
I feel like I don't have thewords right now to express what
it feels like once you're there,like in the feeding frenzy of
whatever you're feeding on, it'salmost like you cannot hit the
brakes.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Well, you're mid-process.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yes, you're not on the other side.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, you're not on the other side, so it's not
natural to stop right.
It's like trying to stop avideo game in the middle.
Well, it didn't end, you didn'tget anywhere yet.
So it makes sense that it'shard to stop because you don't
have, you didn't get the lessonsyet.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I feel like, even if you stop, even if you use some
form of other force, whetherit's religion or, I don't know,
fasting or anything that's goingto have you stop the behavior
without you really understandingwhat the behavior is.
Feeding is sort of moot becausethe emptiness is still there.
(19:35):
It's sort of like the actionlets you know that there's an
emptiness.
Feeling the hungry ghost letsyou know I'm starved and I need
something.
I need to fill this.
But not feeding yourself isn'tthe answer.
I understand that sometimes wechoose things or we're hungry
for things and we might be usingthings that are harmful to
(19:57):
ourselves, when they'readdictions and things like that,
or gambling, or you're spendingmoney, you're living outside of
your means and you have debt,or you blow up your life.
They're not comfortable things.
The hungry ghost is not acomfortable place.
As you see yourself behave inall of these ways that
potentially the higher versionof you is like no stop.
(20:22):
But I would be it's very sad ifwe had not recorded on this,
because I think it's somethingthat's so important and we're in
a society that constantlyapplauds discipline, and I think
discipline is great, I thinkcommitment is great, I think
desire is great and askingyourself.
(20:43):
You know what do I want?
What's one small step for me toget to where I want?
But if you have a hungry ghostin the room and you know it's
there, it really has to beaddressed.
It is basically an elephant,like.
You have to address it, becauselife will just not be life with
(21:06):
a hungry ghost and I think ithas that level of clunk, that
level of hey, take a look at melike this is important, hmm, I
love the gravity in which yousaid that it really landed.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
You know, we do it to ourselves too, in a way,
meaning there's something wewant and we don't give it to
ourselves, and then we'reconstantly trying to fill that
need.
For example, you really, reallywant a steak at that fabulous
restaurant.
(21:46):
You could taste it right, butyou have all these reasons why
you can't go there it's tooexpensive, it's too far.
Whatever, your reasons are thatyou're not giving yourself that
steak, and so you're constantlygoing for the hot dogs and the
hamburgers and it's notsatisfying, like maybe it's good
(22:09):
and there's nothing wrong withthat, but it doesn't hit the
mark.
You want that steak, you wantthat steak dinner.
Maybe you want the wholeexperience, maybe you want to
get dressed up, maybe you want,like, a whole experience around
the steak dinner, but if you'rejust going to the food truck for
the hot dog, it doesn't hitright.
(22:32):
And so sometimes we do need toask ourselves what is it that I
truly want and how can I givethis to myself?
And that can happen anywhere onthe journey.
I think I have a lot moreawareness around that now, and
even if I'm binging Netflixafter a while, there comes a
(22:53):
point where it's not satisfyinganymore.
And what is it that I reallyneed?
I have to ask myself what do Ineed right now, because it's
certainly not another show,certainly not another episode,
right, and so can I really givemyself what I need is the
question, and that's where theresponsibility comes in for
(23:14):
giving ourselves what we needand asking for it, which is
quite vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I just spoke about feeling the hungry ghost and
having to address it, becauseit's like the elephant in the
room.
And I love what you're talkingabout.
You're talking about awareness,like can we really be with?
What am I really needing?
Where am I under resourced?
What is the resource?
Can I give it to myself?
And the hungry ghost is real.
It's very possible.
(23:49):
What's underlying thatcompulsion is not something
you're ready to face, and so thehungry ghost is going for
whatever chip or whatever fastfood or whatever fast food
version of what you're hungryfor, and that's also, as Brenda
(24:09):
says, a place on the map.
At the end of the day, what Iwould love for you guys to take
away from this, if you'relistening, is that Hungry Ghost
is real.
It's not an excuse like oh, I'mjust doing this because I'm
Hungry Ghost.
Because the goal, even ifyou're binging on whatever you
want not necessarily food, butwhatever you're hungry for, if
(24:31):
you're going through a bingephase, the goal is to be on the
other side, and sometimes theonly way on the other side is to
go through it.
Whatever that, it is for you tobring in as much personal
responsibility as possible,understanding that there's not
that much responsibility therebecause our brains aren't really
(24:52):
working.
We're sort of in a compulsionbecause it's touching on a wound
and so there's not that muchthinking happening.
The binge is part of theexperience.
Taking responsibility is partof the experience.
The binge is part of theexperience.
Taking responsibility is partof the experience.
And what we would love for youto do is to not make shame part
(25:14):
of the experience.
Like, is there a way that, eventhough you know you're avoiding
this thing by being in yourcompulsion with hungry ghosts,
even though you're starved andyou just feed, feed, feed and
nothing satisfying, can youremember that this part was
(25:36):
really hard to put down?
Can you have so much love andcompassion for yourself on the
other side?
I see this with affairs right.
I see this with eatingdisorders, shopping disorders.
It doesn't have to get to thatdegree for everyone, but it does
(25:56):
exist and we're just as GaborMate says, we're just
experiencing like a human moment.
It's not necessarily failure inthat you're a failed human or
you don't have morals and values.
It's just oh wow, I was reallytaken over by this because I had
this void and I just did notknow how to fill it.
(26:17):
And then when you ultimately,when you know better, you do
better.
And yeah, when you know better,you do better.
I see Brenda snapping.
Is there something you wantedto add?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I don't think a lot of people are talking about this
.
I don't think this is somethingthat's well known in our
culture about the hungry ghost,I think we just look at it as
consumptive or rude or, you know, selfish and it is a place on
the map.
You know, selfish and it is aplace on the map.
(26:53):
And when we have starvedourselves for so long and we
suddenly and we start feedingourselves, we need to eat.
We need to eat and we can enjoyit.
We could just enjoy it.
And I don't think the hungryghost has responsibility inside
of it, has responsibility insideof it innately.
So just enjoy it.
Just enjoy it.
(27:13):
Enjoy it and then, when it'stime to shift, do something
different.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Thank you so much for that.
That brings something to mindfor me.
I love what Rhonda just broughtin the room, which is like when
we think about the hungry ghostand we don't necessarily call it
that, we don't call it like aninner compulsion, and it's
really easy to be witnessingsomeone else in their compulsion
and then we have tons ofopinions and judgments about
that.
Oh, my goodness, this person isbeing rude, this person is being
selfish, this person is beingconsumptive.
(27:45):
And I want to gently tap you onthe shoulder and say, if this
is you, if you have theseopinions about somebody else
that's going through their thing, whatever that is, this is
about them, it's not about us.
If someone's being selfish, itmight have impact on you, but
it's not because of you, it isnot about you.
(28:09):
It doesn't mean, because youthis, they, that this is just
about them.
Or if you are the person that'sconsuming and someone is
looking at you and they'recalling you selfish and you rude
and you consumptive, yes, youmay be those things, but it's
not about them, it's about youand where you are on the map, so
(28:29):
I'm happy that we got to bringthis subject forward.
We're definitely not saving theworld with this one in the fact
that we have not gone into thereally deep nooks and crannies
around it, predominantly becauseit's so individual.
It's like a thumbprint, afingerprint, a cornea.
We're all going to experiencethe hungry ghost in our own way.
(28:52):
We all have our own wounds andour own ouchies that come to the
surface and bubble up for us.
It's not blanket across theboard, and so some of this may
have resonated, not all of it.
Please take what resonates.
Leave the rest.
If something resonated for you,please, please, please, leave
(29:15):
us an Apple podcast review.
Leave us some stars.
Send us a screenshot Until nexttime.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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