September 3, 2025 • 31 mins
When health challenges arise, whether caring for an aging parent, supporting a partner, or facing personal illness—desire often shifts in profound ways. Priorities change almost overnight, reshaping how we experience and relate to desire itself.
In this episode, Brenda and Catherine share personal stories and reflections on caregiving, illness, and the transformation of desire during these seasons of life.
Brenda speaks about her time caring for her mother, grandmother, and father, and how her desire became rooted in simply being present with them. She reflects on the tension between wanting to give everything and recognizing her own limits, along with the guilt of not always being the “perfect daughter.”
Catherine recalls the vulnerability of receiving care after surgery, including the discomfort of relying on others when she could not give back. Together, they explore how care, whether given or received, creates opportunities for deeper connection, honesty, and grace.
They also speak to the intimate presence of grief during caregiving. As Brenda shares, “Grief is in the room, and the grief is the love.” Grief, while painful, also opens the heart to profound meaning and intimacy.
At its heart, this episode is about the gifts that emerge when life slows down to essentials. In returning to basics, we discover resilience, community, and the surprising ways love reveals itself.
Episode Highlights:
• Desire shifts toward basic needs when health is the focus
• Self-care is essential when supporting loved ones
• Setting boundaries is necessary, even in caregiving
• Asking for help builds community and allows unexpected gifts
• Grief accompanies caregiving yet opens the heart to connection
• Life and death rarely unfold according to expectations
• Joy and beauty can be found even in difficult caregiving moments
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Click the links below for 1:1 support.
Email Us:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
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catherine@catherinenavarro.com
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@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student,
(00:58):
even after decades of inner work.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
We are humble beginners on the mat, still
exploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire, piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible
for our desire.
Welcome back everyone family,friends, listeners.
(01:34):
We've been doing a little bitof a desire series here.
Brenda and I are so excited toget back to it.
I am joined with her as usual,happy to see her and happy to be
in the studio again today.
Happy to see her and happy tobe in the studio again today.
And we've talked about desirefrom a few different angles the
past few drops of episodes, oneof the things that has come up
(02:04):
for me in my world as I look out.
I'm about to share it in aminute, but I can't wait to ask
Brenda about it because she hastons of experience in this field
, in this arena around desire,so I'm excited to see what
genius she brings Desire.
We've talked about how to tapinto it when you know what it is
and you've lost it.
We've talked about what it feelslike before you even know what
you're dealing with like justhaving whispers or little taps
(02:25):
on the shoulder when desire islike hey, take a look over here,
and just as a reminder, desireis sort of life force wanting to
be expressed through you in aparticular way.
We talked about what happens todesire when we have things
happen like maybe we're sick.
We have things happen likemaybe we're sick, we have kids.
(02:50):
The phase of life changes foryou and desire isn't at the
forefront.
One of the times in life wherethis is really visible is when
we're taking care of otherpeople.
A lot of times, women have thisexperience when they have
children.
I don't know how often in oursociety, but a lot of people
take care of their parents ortheir elderly parents maybe not
(03:11):
so elderly, maybe sick parentsand today what I want us to look
at is how do we touch desirewhen we are caring for others
and, to a certain extent, wehave their needs ahead of ours,
brenda.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Well, this is a beautiful topic Thank you so
much, catherine and a verypoignant topic.
As you know, I've been takingcare of my mother recently, as
she hasn't been really well.
And how do we have desire whenour world kind of stops in a way
?
You know we're going along withlife and we have these quote
(03:54):
problems, and then somethingreally big comes in and then
we're like, oh, maybe thoseweren't such big problems after
all, and so our prioritieschange and our time and energy
actually shifts because it'sgoing towards one thing in
particular and take care of ourparents.
That's a really big rolereversal right there.
(04:20):
If you have elderly parents mymother's.
I wouldn't consider my motherelderly she is going to be 80
this fall, but she did have aninjury recently and she is
getting older and I've beentaking care of her recently.
So how do I touch desire whenI'm taking care of my mother?
What a great question.
My first thought is it getsreally simple, like it becomes
(04:46):
simple and slowing it down andit becomes chop wood, carry
water and very low to the ground.
It's like.
It's like how do I take care ofmyself and give myself what I
need so I can be present forthis person who I love so much.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Thank you so much for that.
And yes, you've reminded me ofthe quote and I'm sure many
communians have used thisbecause I've seen it many times
and I laugh every time as ifit's the first time.
We can have tons and tons ofproblems until we have a health
problem, and then, when we havea health problem, we have a
health problem, and then, whenwe have a health problem, we
have a health problem.
That's the only problem that wehave, and sort of same same If
(05:29):
we have a loved one that eitherlived with us, a parent or a
child, someone that we care foror either with our hearts or
literally care for, we areresponsible for, for whatever
reason, if that person,individual, has a health problem
, that becomes the only problemand it puts everything in
(05:56):
perspective.
You said, yes, we slow down, wesort of chop wood, carry water.
Everything becomes reallysimple and I want to sort of
expand on that and say itbecomes did I take a shower
today?
Did I get dressed today?
Am I rested?
Was I able to sleep?
Have I eaten enough today?
(06:16):
Like, really going down to thebasics, did I pay my bills?
Like, is my rent paid?
My car note, do I have anythingoutstanding.
Is there someone I need to call?
I haven't been in this position,which is why, brenda, I wanted
really you to talk about this.
I've been in this position fromthe perspective of whenever
(06:37):
I've been sick and I've had toslow down and I've had to ask
for help Like, oh, I'm about tohave an operation, can you, on
this day, come and pick me upfrom the hospital?
Or can you, friend, on this day, drop me off at the hospital?
Or can you, friend?
I remember one time I asked afriend if she could come and
(06:57):
give me homeopathic pelletsunderneath my tongue while I was
in the hospital, because thathelped with, like, recovery from
anesthesia and things like that.
For me it was pre-planning, itwas like my pregame for my
recovery.
And how do I plan for all thosesteps?
But I've never had to do it forsomeone else.
And whether it's for us, ourown health, or we're taking care
(07:21):
of somebody else that hashealth issues, I think the
bigger desires of I want tobecome a millionaire, or I want
to live in a mansion, or I wantto go have my Disney vacation, I
want to take a trip around theworld that's not present and
palpable anymore, palatableanymore, I think when we have
those desires, it's really easyto feel tapped into our desire.
(07:42):
But when health pops up or thehealth of someone else pops up
and it's in the room, it's as ifthe rest of the air in the room
got sucked out.
And how do you stay nourished?
You say, or you said it goesback to the basics.
Is there anything that Imentioned or that I didn't
mention?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I think you really nailed it, or that I didn't
(08:27):
mention was dying in 2001.
He tried to take his own life.
So those seven or eight weeksin the hospital were really big.
And then I had that experiencein 2014, taking care of my
grandmother my father's motherand after my father died.
Not only did I take care of mygrandmother at the very end of
her life when she was in hospice, I took care of my grandmother
for all the years between whenmy father died, from 2001 to
(08:47):
2014.
My sister and I were caring formy grandmother.
It was a generation skipped, sowe were caring for her and we
were her bottom line.
And now I'm looking out for mymother.
Luckily, she has a husband whois wonderful and you know, god
willing, she'll be fine and liveto her hundred years, as my
(09:10):
grandmother used to say.
But right now she is having ahealth issue, and so what I will
say is that you're 100% rightwhen you say the desires change.
It does become simpler.
Certain things just don't seemto matter anymore.
I take my commitments veryseriously, like showing up to
(09:31):
this podcast, showing up for myclients.
It's very important for me totake care of myself and eat well
, and I'm not willing to let anyof those things slide.
Thank God that hasn't come upfor me where that's been an
issue.
But even in a simple day oftaking care of my mother and
driving her back and forth lastweek for body work, taking care
(09:56):
of myself, feeding myself, beingreally tired, feelings came up
for me of what am I actuallycapable of here, what am I
actually available for?
And there were things that Ihad to say no to.
There were things that I had tosay no, I don't actually have
the capacity.
After four hours of driving,cooking, bringing your body work
(10:17):
, I actually can't now driveanother two hours home.
And that was very confrontingto me to have that come up Like,
oh I'm actually.
What actually happened was wewere supposed to sleep over.
She was having some body workat a friend's and she changed
her mind that she didn't want tosleep over and I came back from
(10:37):
getting some food and she saidI want to go home.
And that was very confrontingto me because I hadn't eaten
dinner.
So I wasn't able to just be ather beck and call and I said to
her very lovingly I need to havesomething to eat and then we
can talk about it After I ate.
I realized I actually don't haveany capacity to drive her home
(10:57):
two hours right now, and whatcame up for me was thoughts of
oh, I'm not a good daughter.
Came up for me was thoughts ofoh, I'm not a good daughter.
You know.
We talked about if you want togo home right now, that's fine.
I didn't want, I would haveliked for her to stay, but of
course, whatever she wants iswhat I'm going to try and make
happen for her.
(11:18):
So we talked about an Uber, andthen I really had to work
through some internal moments ofwhat is my family going to
think.
Is my family going to blame meand say you should have driven
your mother home.
I can't believe.
You sent her home in an Uberwhen it was actually a really
loving act and I had to likework with myself in that moment
(11:39):
and say, oh no, this is actuallyvery loving.
I'm not doing anyone any favorsif I get in a car right now and
drive her two hours when Idon't actually have the capacity
to do that.
So these are just some littlethings that come up in the
moment that can be quiteconfronting.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
It is confronting.
It is interesting that Ihaven't had to go through this.
I mean, I didn't take care ofmy mom because I was a teenager
when she passed.
I didn't take care of my dadbecause I didn't live in the
same state.
My brothers, my older brothers,did that.
Grandparents weren't around, soI haven't had to see that in
(12:19):
that way.
On the contrary, I have beensomeone who people are there for
me, I'm receiving, and what youjust spoke about right now had
me think about.
I had a friend I think it wasafter the second surgery who
stayed with me A few dayspost-surgery.
(12:41):
It was like hard to get out ofbed, go to the bathroom.
I sort of needed somebody sothat I wouldn't fall.
It was sort of make sure that Iwas steady in my walking and it
was really confronting to methat I was having someone there
to help me.
But I couldn't really bepresent there.
I'm like clearly I'm high, I'mon painkillers.
(13:03):
I can't really have aconversation with someone or
meet them halfway or ask themhow their day is or how they're
doing.
I had to be willing to receivewithout being able to, in any
way, shape or form, give back.
It was very confronting and inthat location it becomes hard.
(13:26):
Desire is definitely not in theroom.
I'm not thinking about anyyachts or any ballroom dances or
anything like that.
At that time the desire becomesI just want to feel better,
right, I want to be able to bepart of my social group and I
(13:46):
want to feel better again andmingle.
And it becomes really basicLike can I have a conversation
with another person, anotherhuman?
Can I meet them in conversation?
Do I have the energy to just bein conversation for between an
hour to three hours?
Because that act alone duringthose times is so hard and so
(14:07):
difficult.
It's a time to receive fromother people, knowing full well
that you really can't meet themin any way, shape or form at
that time, and it's a lot toreceive.
And it's a lot to receive Whilealso you're receiving a lot and
(14:37):
also having difficulty inreally feeling into what is it
that I really want outside ofthe really small basics.
Part of this umbrellaconversation today around this
is just shining a light on thefact that this is hard, whether
you're caring for someone andyou're wanting to still be
(14:58):
present for your desires,someone's caring for you and you
want to be present for yourdesires.
Someone's caring for you andyou want to be present for your
desires.
When health is the alarm in theroom, everything becomes really
small it really does.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Thank you for sharing that.
I really feel the vulnerabilityin receiving help in that
particular way, where you're notnecessarily able to express it
to the extent of what you'rereally feeling.
And what came up for me whenyou were talking about is the
kind of love that exists insideof that space, like so much love
that you're being cared for inthat way, and also how much love
(15:40):
you had for yourself to setthat up for yourself and to ask
for somebody to come and helpyou.
That is beautiful, because alot of people are out there
braving it on their own inself-sufficiency vibes and
that's not great and reallyyou're going to heal better if
you have help.
(16:01):
So amen on that.
I think that's a really goodexample.
And what I also wanted to saydesire is definitely in the room
.
Last week, when I was takingcare of my mother, the desire
that was in the room, it changescompletely.
It's not about, oh, I want tobuild my business, or I want a
podcast on this particular issue, or oh, I really wanted those
(16:22):
pants.
No, it's the most deepest souldesire.
My desire that day leading upto it and moving forward, is I
want to be there for my motherto the absolute best of my
ability in whatever she needsand, god willing, she'll live a
long time Because I have takencare of my grandmother at the
(16:47):
end of her life and she was 94when she died and it was
beautiful.
It was beautiful to take careof her and it was at a time in
my life where I was really busy.
I was having a huge spiritualsexual awakening during that
time.
I was going through a divorce.
It was a lot going on in myworld at that point and I was
(17:26):
taking care of her as well.
I was teaching full time, mykids were teenagers, I was
visiting her in her assistedliving and with me even now
every day and I look back andthere's things I learned from
that that I am applying rightnow.
God willing, this desire willcertainly grow me to my mother.
I want to be there for her somuch.
That's my desire and it justfeels like the most beautiful
(17:49):
heart-centered desire that Icould have.
And it asks me to take reallygood care of myself.
Because at this point in mypractice that just has to be,
because I do have a foundationof self-love and boundaries for
(18:10):
myself.
I need to take really good careof myself, which means I need
to have movement, I need to eat,I need friends to talk to, I
need to ask for help, and I havean amazing sister who actually
lives close to my mother and soshe's able to go over there a
lot more than I am, and so itreally takes good communication
with my sister and we alwayshave this thing in my family,
(18:31):
like if one person is going overto someone's house, let's all
go together, and that's kind ofthis belief of how we do things
and it's really fun.
It's always a lot of chaos, butthat's not gonna jive when my
mother wasn't feeling well andhe needed to go and take care of
her, because I don't need tohave a social day in that way
(18:52):
when I have work and otherthings to do and I don't know
what's coming.
So we had to kind of cutthrough that way of being in my
family and say, okay, you gotoday and I'll go tomorrow.
When we generally don't do itthat way, we're generally like
let's all just go together andhave a party, asking for help,
dividing up, and then there'sthe really big piece when we're
(19:16):
taking care of other people,people that we love, our parents
, our grandparents.
Whoever it is is grief.
Whoever it is is grief.
Grief is in the room and thegrief is the love and it is
confronting, it's veryconfronting and it's confronting
(19:37):
to me, even right now, that youknow we don't know what's going
to happen.
We never know what's going tohappen.
That's why I really try to makeevery moment count, especially
with my mother, and I havethought about it and it is
terrifying to lose her, and it'salso something that I feel my
system preparing for, as much asI don't want to admit that,
because it's just the way itgoes.
God willing, I'll live to be100 years and my kids will lose
(20:01):
me one day.
That's the way it goes.
That's the order of rightnessin our world.
That's the way it's supposed tobe.
It's not supposed to be theother way around.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Well, we can't really decide that one.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
No, we can't, but it is the way it's supposed to be.
I mean, we're supposed to raiseour children and that we're
supposed to die before them.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well, that's a great topic, Maybe different die
before them.
Well, that's a great topic,maybe different podcast.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Wait, I want to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Well, we don't know the order of that.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
No we don't Like.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Life is a gift, and so when you say that's the way
it's supposed to be supposed tobe, I think we decide that it's
supposed to be that way, or wewant it to be that way, based on
our like desire for things torun up in a particular way, like
for things to have a particularsequence, but we don't actually
know the sequence, because wedon't know the sequence and
(20:55):
there are so many differentsequences for so many different
people that it makes that not bethe case, like it's actually
not true.
We just don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
No, we totally don't know, but I think the natural
order of things is that parentsdie before their children, and I
totally get what you're sayingI know you keep saying that.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
That's why I'm like where is that coming?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
that it doesn't always work out that way, but I
don't think that it's thenatural order.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Maybe it's the soul's order because we have lessons
to learn.
Yeah, so what is natural order?
Where does it come from?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I don't know, I haven't thought about this very
much.
Okay, we want to know what youthink about this, but I do think
that that is the natural order,and maybe there's my own idea
of the way it's supposed to be,or maybe that's just a cultural
meme, that that's what we say.
You're supposed to have yourchildren.
You die before them.
You know you bury your parents,and that's the natural order,
(21:49):
because the other way is hell.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
But I think you know, those things come from when we
didn't live past 30.
True, like they come from atime in life where we had really
short lifespans.
That's true.
But now, now I'm going to saythis story really fast, just
because it came up on thepodcast.
Now, on this topic, I wasreading this thing about this
(22:13):
woman in Paris who sold herhouse to this guy and the deal
was you pay me monthly and theneventually it's like you
eventually own the home.
But he died before her.
She lived to like 122 and when,after he died her, his kids
were paying for her to be inthat place so that they would
(22:33):
eventually own it.
And it's funny it's talkingabout.
What you're talking about rightnow is we don't know when the
expiration date is.
We, we totally don't know.
He died at 77, which isn't thatold, you know, and I'm sure he
thought for sure this woman thatlived to 122 would die before
(22:53):
him and she just didn't.
And then his heirs were payingfor that property.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
That's really very funny.
That's a very funny story.
Well, I did learn that lesson.
I 100% agree with you thatthat's not the way it often goes
, sadly, and I learned thatlesson pretty hard.
I used to have my kids, whenthey were really little, take
pictures with my grandparents.
So my kids had three of theirgreat-grandparents, which is
pretty amazing.
I used to always take pictureswith them and then they outlived
(23:23):
my own father, so that was areal smack in the face.
So I learned that lesson reallyhard.
There really is no order ofthings and what we expect isn't
always what happens for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I think if you get to have the order, it's a real
blessing, like I think what ablessing it is If you know your
parents and your grandparentsand you have children and people
kind of go in the order.
That is the most pleasant,potentially because we all know
that we're going to go.
We just don't know what orderit's going to be or how Right
(23:57):
Like there are accidents, thingshappen.
It doesn't have to be fromnatural causes, there's always
just life that occurs.
I know that today we're talkingabout where's desire in the room
, in ourselves, when health isthe alarm that's ringing,
(24:19):
whether in ourselves or insomeone we're caring for,
whether in ourselves or insomeone we're caring for.
And now we're talking about youknow this inevitable death that
happens and we don't reallyknow the sequence.
We know the sequence we desire,what would feel most
comfortable when natural orderis happening and how to be with
(24:42):
all of it and still feeling intoyour desire.
I love that you talked aboutmaking sure that you show up for
your business, making sure thatyou handle your commitments,
whether it's a podcast orsomething or something else.
Is there anything else thatcomes to mind for you that
you're like when I'm caring forsomeone else.
I'm making sure these thingsare handled in my life.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
You're like when I'm caring for someone else.
I'm making sure these thingsare handled in my life.
A story that comes up for me iswhen my father was in the
hospital.
This was 2001.
This was before 9-11.
And I was teaching at the timeand I taught in the morning and
I taught in the afternoon.
I had one class in the middle ofthe day and my assistant
principal God bless his soul, hewas absolutely amazing.
His name was Herb and I alwaystold him how amazing he was,
(25:26):
because he truly was.
He would cover my sixth periodclass so I could go during the
middle of the day and visit myfather in the hospital.
So I would teach in the morning, go visit him and come back and
teach and then go home to mylittle kids at home.
It was really a very busy timeand the gift in that was here.
Here.
I am still talking about it allthese years later because what
(25:46):
he did for me was absolutelygorgeous.
He very easily could have saidoh no, brenda, you need to teach
that sixth period class.
And what a beautiful gift thatI received.
What a beautiful, beautifulgift.
And he would always say to mefamily comes first and I was
also handling my stuff.
(26:06):
He would always say as well,people come to me with problems
all the time, but if you come tome with a solution, then I'm
going to back you all the way.
And so he would cover me and mystudents were very happy.
I was able to go see my father,which meant my kids were
happier and it was just easierfor me overall.
And so I think the hidden giftsin these moments are quite
(26:31):
beautiful, like there's justangels everywhere who do really
want to show up for us and wantit to be good for us and want to
help us.
And the really important pieceis asking for what you need and
want.
Like it felt like kind of a bigask to go out in the middle of
the day several times a weekduring my work day, but I asked
(26:55):
for it.
I think a lot of peoplewouldn't even ask so
communicating it, showing up toreceive it, and then I just kept
asking and at some point he wasjust like just tell me what you
need and I'll cover it.
So there's a lot of reallybeautiful gifts to receive and
funny stories as well.
You know, a lot of funnystories.
(27:16):
It's not all doom and gloom, youknow if we're in approval of
what's happening.
Oh, somebody's not doing well.
There are some beautifulmoments that come out of that
and it's really important tonotice those things, because
grief is such a deep emotion andit's something that we all
(27:37):
don't want to feel yet.
It is a part of life, like youwere saying, and when we're
really in it, boy are we tappedin to something so much deeper.
We are tapped into our love.
There's a softness that's therebecause all the protections
come off because we're in grief.
(27:57):
I have found that in moments ofgrief, my heart is cracked open
and I am available for peoplein life in a way that I'm not
always available when I'm on aschedule, trying to make this or
that appointment, talk topeople.
You know doing my groovingthing that I do.
(28:18):
It's a really important pieceto notice that.
It's not something that we want, grief, but there's beautiful
gifts inside of it.
We can receive those gifts andstill want the person that we're
with to live.
They're not separate.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
You can have both that when we're in grief and
when we're back to the basics,we have such an opportunity to
ask for help and make space formiracles.
We have the opportunity to askfor help and strengthen our
(28:56):
community and our connectionswith other people, with those we
love and those whom love us.
Strengthen our community withpeople that maybe there isn't
love in the room, but they aremore than happy and willing to
be of service and do their partas part of the community at
large.
I love how you said it's notthat desire isn't in the room,
(29:20):
it's that it just soundsdifferent.
And it's.
Yes, we're not shooting for thestars, we're really wanting to
go back to the basics.
And what in the basics can weenhance?
Like what part of the basicsyou said for you right now, it's
(29:40):
how can I show up to the bestof my ability?
And I also hear and since Iknow you, I know that you're
taking really good care ofyourself, and I think that's a
better way than how we've beentaught to just give out all of
yourself and then there'snothing left and you're sort of
picking up the pieces.
(30:01):
I really, really hope that thisepisode landed for you, that
you've been able to feel intowhat happens to your desire when
either you're the person that'shaving a health challenge or
you're helping somebody elsethat's having a health challenge
and pause, reflect, askyourself what do you need, Ask
(30:21):
for the help if it's needed, ifit's necessary, or even if it's
not necessary.
Just ask for whatever you needso that this time could be
easier for you and you get toenjoy your loved ones to the
best of your ability, that youget to enjoy your own life to
the best of your ability, andI'm not going to pretend like
this is easy.
Brenda talked about grief.
Like this is a time wherethere's grief, whether it's your
(30:44):
own health or the health ofsomeone else.
When health problems occur,there is grief in the room
because we have an idea we wantto be strong and young forever.
I know I see 70-year-olds and80-year-olds that say I may be
80 on the timeline and I feel 20inside.
(31:05):
Right, we all feel like littlekids inside.
So taking care of ourselves sothat we can be the best
expression of ourselves is soimportant.
I really hope that this episodetouched you as it has me and,
if you feel so, called.
Please write a review on ApplePodcasts, send a snapshot, a
(31:27):
screenshot, let me know.
Bye for now.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student,
(00:58):
even after decades of inner work.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
We are humble beginners on the mat, still
exploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire, piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible
for our desire.
Welcome back everyone family,friends, listeners.
(01:34):
We've been doing a little bitof a desire series here.
Brenda and I are so excited toget back to it.
I am joined with her as usual,happy to see her and happy to be
in the studio again today.
Happy to see her and happy tobe in the studio again today.
And we've talked about desirefrom a few different angles the
past few drops of episodes, oneof the things that has come up
(02:04):
for me in my world as I look out.
I'm about to share it in aminute, but I can't wait to ask
Brenda about it because she hastons of experience in this field
, in this arena around desire,so I'm excited to see what
genius she brings Desire.
We've talked about how to tapinto it when you know what it is
and you've lost it.
We've talked about what it feelslike before you even know what
you're dealing with like justhaving whispers or little taps
(02:25):
on the shoulder when desire islike hey, take a look over here,
and just as a reminder, desireis sort of life force wanting to
be expressed through you in aparticular way.
We talked about what happens todesire when we have things
happen like maybe we're sick.
We have things happen likemaybe we're sick, we have kids.
(02:50):
The phase of life changes foryou and desire isn't at the
forefront.
One of the times in life wherethis is really visible is when
we're taking care of otherpeople.
A lot of times, women have thisexperience when they have
children.
I don't know how often in oursociety, but a lot of people
take care of their parents ortheir elderly parents maybe not
(03:11):
so elderly, maybe sick parentsand today what I want us to look
at is how do we touch desirewhen we are caring for others
and, to a certain extent, wehave their needs ahead of ours,
brenda.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Well, this is a beautiful topic Thank you so
much, catherine and a verypoignant topic.
As you know, I've been takingcare of my mother recently, as
she hasn't been really well.
And how do we have desire whenour world kind of stops in a way
?
You know we're going along withlife and we have these quote
(03:54):
problems, and then somethingreally big comes in and then
we're like, oh, maybe thoseweren't such big problems after
all, and so our prioritieschange and our time and energy
actually shifts because it'sgoing towards one thing in
particular and take care of ourparents.
That's a really big rolereversal right there.
(04:20):
If you have elderly parents mymother's.
I wouldn't consider my motherelderly she is going to be 80
this fall, but she did have aninjury recently and she is
getting older and I've beentaking care of her recently.
So how do I touch desire whenI'm taking care of my mother?
What a great question.
My first thought is it getsreally simple, like it becomes
(04:46):
simple and slowing it down andit becomes chop wood, carry
water and very low to the ground.
It's like.
It's like how do I take care ofmyself and give myself what I
need so I can be present forthis person who I love so much.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Thank you so much for that.
And yes, you've reminded me ofthe quote and I'm sure many
communians have used thisbecause I've seen it many times
and I laugh every time as ifit's the first time.
We can have tons and tons ofproblems until we have a health
problem, and then, when we havea health problem, we have a
health problem, and then, whenwe have a health problem, we
have a health problem.
That's the only problem that wehave, and sort of same same If
(05:29):
we have a loved one that eitherlived with us, a parent or a
child, someone that we care foror either with our hearts or
literally care for, we areresponsible for, for whatever
reason, if that person,individual, has a health problem
, that becomes the only problemand it puts everything in
(05:56):
perspective.
You said, yes, we slow down, wesort of chop wood, carry water.
Everything becomes reallysimple and I want to sort of
expand on that and say itbecomes did I take a shower
today?
Did I get dressed today?
Am I rested?
Was I able to sleep?
Have I eaten enough today?
(06:16):
Like, really going down to thebasics, did I pay my bills?
Like, is my rent paid?
My car note, do I have anythingoutstanding.
Is there someone I need to call?
I haven't been in this position,which is why, brenda, I wanted
really you to talk about this.
I've been in this position fromthe perspective of whenever
(06:37):
I've been sick and I've had toslow down and I've had to ask
for help Like, oh, I'm about tohave an operation, can you, on
this day, come and pick me upfrom the hospital?
Or can you, friend, on this day, drop me off at the hospital?
Or can you, friend?
I remember one time I asked afriend if she could come and
(06:57):
give me homeopathic pelletsunderneath my tongue while I was
in the hospital, because thathelped with, like, recovery from
anesthesia and things like that.
For me it was pre-planning, itwas like my pregame for my
recovery.
And how do I plan for all thosesteps?
But I've never had to do it forsomeone else.
And whether it's for us, ourown health, or we're taking care
(07:21):
of somebody else that hashealth issues, I think the
bigger desires of I want tobecome a millionaire, or I want
to live in a mansion, or I wantto go have my Disney vacation, I
want to take a trip around theworld that's not present and
palpable anymore, palatableanymore, I think when we have
those desires, it's really easyto feel tapped into our desire.
(07:42):
But when health pops up or thehealth of someone else pops up
and it's in the room, it's as ifthe rest of the air in the room
got sucked out.
And how do you stay nourished?
You say, or you said it goesback to the basics.
Is there anything that Imentioned or that I didn't
mention?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I think you really nailed it, or that I didn't
(08:27):
mention was dying in 2001.
He tried to take his own life.
So those seven or eight weeksin the hospital were really big.
And then I had that experiencein 2014, taking care of my
grandmother my father's motherand after my father died.
Not only did I take care of mygrandmother at the very end of
her life when she was in hospice, I took care of my grandmother
for all the years between whenmy father died, from 2001 to
(08:47):
2014.
My sister and I were caring formy grandmother.
It was a generation skipped, sowe were caring for her and we
were her bottom line.
And now I'm looking out for mymother.
Luckily, she has a husband whois wonderful and you know, god
willing, she'll be fine and liveto her hundred years, as my
(09:10):
grandmother used to say.
But right now she is having ahealth issue, and so what I will
say is that you're 100% rightwhen you say the desires change.
It does become simpler.
Certain things just don't seemto matter anymore.
I take my commitments veryseriously, like showing up to
(09:31):
this podcast, showing up for myclients.
It's very important for me totake care of myself and eat well
, and I'm not willing to let anyof those things slide.
Thank God that hasn't come upfor me where that's been an
issue.
But even in a simple day oftaking care of my mother and
driving her back and forth lastweek for body work, taking care
(09:56):
of myself, feeding myself, beingreally tired, feelings came up
for me of what am I actuallycapable of here, what am I
actually available for?
And there were things that Ihad to say no to.
There were things that I had tosay no, I don't actually have
the capacity.
After four hours of driving,cooking, bringing your body work
(10:17):
, I actually can't now driveanother two hours home.
And that was very confrontingto me to have that come up Like,
oh I'm actually.
What actually happened was wewere supposed to sleep over.
She was having some body workat a friend's and she changed
her mind that she didn't want tosleep over and I came back from
(10:37):
getting some food and she saidI want to go home.
And that was very confrontingto me because I hadn't eaten
dinner.
So I wasn't able to just be ather beck and call and I said to
her very lovingly I need to havesomething to eat and then we
can talk about it After I ate.
I realized I actually don't haveany capacity to drive her home
(10:57):
two hours right now, and whatcame up for me was thoughts of
oh, I'm not a good daughter.
Came up for me was thoughts ofoh, I'm not a good daughter.
You know.
We talked about if you want togo home right now, that's fine.
I didn't want, I would haveliked for her to stay, but of
course, whatever she wants iswhat I'm going to try and make
happen for her.
(11:18):
So we talked about an Uber, andthen I really had to work
through some internal moments ofwhat is my family going to
think.
Is my family going to blame meand say you should have driven
your mother home.
I can't believe.
You sent her home in an Uberwhen it was actually a really
loving act and I had to likework with myself in that moment
(11:39):
and say, oh no, this is actuallyvery loving.
I'm not doing anyone any favorsif I get in a car right now and
drive her two hours when Idon't actually have the capacity
to do that.
So these are just some littlethings that come up in the
moment that can be quiteconfronting.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
It is confronting.
It is interesting that Ihaven't had to go through this.
I mean, I didn't take care ofmy mom because I was a teenager
when she passed.
I didn't take care of my dadbecause I didn't live in the
same state.
My brothers, my older brothers,did that.
Grandparents weren't around, soI haven't had to see that in
(12:19):
that way.
On the contrary, I have beensomeone who people are there for
me, I'm receiving, and what youjust spoke about right now had
me think about.
I had a friend I think it wasafter the second surgery who
stayed with me A few dayspost-surgery.
(12:41):
It was like hard to get out ofbed, go to the bathroom.
I sort of needed somebody sothat I wouldn't fall.
It was sort of make sure that Iwas steady in my walking and it
was really confronting to methat I was having someone there
to help me.
But I couldn't really bepresent there.
I'm like clearly I'm high, I'mon painkillers.
(13:03):
I can't really have aconversation with someone or
meet them halfway or ask themhow their day is or how they're
doing.
I had to be willing to receivewithout being able to, in any
way, shape or form, give back.
It was very confronting and inthat location it becomes hard.
(13:26):
Desire is definitely not in theroom.
I'm not thinking about anyyachts or any ballroom dances or
anything like that.
At that time the desire becomesI just want to feel better,
right, I want to be able to bepart of my social group and I
(13:46):
want to feel better again andmingle.
And it becomes really basicLike can I have a conversation
with another person, anotherhuman?
Can I meet them in conversation?
Do I have the energy to just bein conversation for between an
hour to three hours?
Because that act alone duringthose times is so hard and so
(14:07):
difficult.
It's a time to receive fromother people, knowing full well
that you really can't meet themin any way, shape or form at
that time, and it's a lot toreceive.
And it's a lot to receive Whilealso you're receiving a lot and
(14:37):
also having difficulty inreally feeling into what is it
that I really want outside ofthe really small basics.
Part of this umbrellaconversation today around this
is just shining a light on thefact that this is hard, whether
you're caring for someone andyou're wanting to still be
(14:58):
present for your desires,someone's caring for you and you
want to be present for yourdesires.
Someone's caring for you andyou want to be present for your
desires.
When health is the alarm in theroom, everything becomes really
small it really does.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Thank you for sharing that.
I really feel the vulnerabilityin receiving help in that
particular way, where you're notnecessarily able to express it
to the extent of what you'rereally feeling.
And what came up for me whenyou were talking about is the
kind of love that exists insideof that space, like so much love
that you're being cared for inthat way, and also how much love
(15:40):
you had for yourself to setthat up for yourself and to ask
for somebody to come and helpyou.
That is beautiful, because alot of people are out there
braving it on their own inself-sufficiency vibes and
that's not great and reallyyou're going to heal better if
you have help.
(16:01):
So amen on that.
I think that's a really goodexample.
And what I also wanted to saydesire is definitely in the room
.
Last week, when I was takingcare of my mother, the desire
that was in the room, it changescompletely.
It's not about, oh, I want tobuild my business, or I want a
podcast on this particular issue, or oh, I really wanted those
(16:22):
pants.
No, it's the most deepest souldesire.
My desire that day leading upto it and moving forward, is I
want to be there for my motherto the absolute best of my
ability in whatever she needsand, god willing, she'll live a
long time Because I have takencare of my grandmother at the
(16:47):
end of her life and she was 94when she died and it was
beautiful.
It was beautiful to take careof her and it was at a time in
my life where I was really busy.
I was having a huge spiritualsexual awakening during that
time.
I was going through a divorce.
It was a lot going on in myworld at that point and I was
(17:26):
taking care of her as well.
I was teaching full time, mykids were teenagers, I was
visiting her in her assistedliving and with me even now
every day and I look back andthere's things I learned from
that that I am applying rightnow.
God willing, this desire willcertainly grow me to my mother.
I want to be there for her somuch.
That's my desire and it justfeels like the most beautiful
(17:49):
heart-centered desire that Icould have.
And it asks me to take reallygood care of myself.
Because at this point in mypractice that just has to be,
because I do have a foundationof self-love and boundaries for
(18:10):
myself.
I need to take really good careof myself, which means I need
to have movement, I need to eat,I need friends to talk to, I
need to ask for help, and I havean amazing sister who actually
lives close to my mother and soshe's able to go over there a
lot more than I am, and so itreally takes good communication
with my sister and we alwayshave this thing in my family,
(18:31):
like if one person is going overto someone's house, let's all
go together, and that's kind ofthis belief of how we do things
and it's really fun.
It's always a lot of chaos, butthat's not gonna jive when my
mother wasn't feeling well andhe needed to go and take care of
her, because I don't need tohave a social day in that way
(18:52):
when I have work and otherthings to do and I don't know
what's coming.
So we had to kind of cutthrough that way of being in my
family and say, okay, you gotoday and I'll go tomorrow.
When we generally don't do itthat way, we're generally like
let's all just go together andhave a party, asking for help,
dividing up, and then there'sthe really big piece when we're
(19:16):
taking care of other people,people that we love, our parents
, our grandparents.
Whoever it is is grief.
Whoever it is is grief.
Grief is in the room and thegrief is the love and it is
confronting, it's veryconfronting and it's confronting
(19:37):
to me, even right now, that youknow we don't know what's going
to happen.
We never know what's going tohappen.
That's why I really try to makeevery moment count, especially
with my mother, and I havethought about it and it is
terrifying to lose her, and it'salso something that I feel my
system preparing for, as much asI don't want to admit that,
because it's just the way itgoes.
God willing, I'll live to be100 years and my kids will lose
(20:01):
me one day.
That's the way it goes.
That's the order of rightnessin our world.
That's the way it's supposed tobe.
It's not supposed to be theother way around.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Well, we can't really decide that one.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
No, we can't, but it is the way it's supposed to be.
I mean, we're supposed to raiseour children and that we're
supposed to die before them.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well, that's a great topic, Maybe different die
before them.
Well, that's a great topic,maybe different podcast.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Wait, I want to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Well, we don't know the order of that.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
No we don't Like.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Life is a gift, and so when you say that's the way
it's supposed to be supposed tobe, I think we decide that it's
supposed to be that way, or wewant it to be that way, based on
our like desire for things torun up in a particular way, like
for things to have a particularsequence, but we don't actually
know the sequence, because wedon't know the sequence and
(20:55):
there are so many differentsequences for so many different
people that it makes that not bethe case, like it's actually
not true.
We just don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
No, we totally don't know, but I think the natural
order of things is that parentsdie before their children, and I
totally get what you're sayingI know you keep saying that.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
That's why I'm like where is that coming?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
that it doesn't always work out that way, but I
don't think that it's thenatural order.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Maybe it's the soul's order because we have lessons
to learn.
Yeah, so what is natural order?
Where does it come from?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I don't know, I haven't thought about this very
much.
Okay, we want to know what youthink about this, but I do think
that that is the natural order,and maybe there's my own idea
of the way it's supposed to be,or maybe that's just a cultural
meme, that that's what we say.
You're supposed to have yourchildren.
You die before them.
You know you bury your parents,and that's the natural order,
(21:49):
because the other way is hell.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
But I think you know, those things come from when we
didn't live past 30.
True, like they come from atime in life where we had really
short lifespans.
That's true.
But now, now I'm going to saythis story really fast, just
because it came up on thepodcast.
Now, on this topic, I wasreading this thing about this
(22:13):
woman in Paris who sold herhouse to this guy and the deal
was you pay me monthly and theneventually it's like you
eventually own the home.
But he died before her.
She lived to like 122 and when,after he died her, his kids
were paying for her to be inthat place so that they would
(22:33):
eventually own it.
And it's funny it's talkingabout.
What you're talking about rightnow is we don't know when the
expiration date is.
We, we totally don't know.
He died at 77, which isn't thatold, you know, and I'm sure he
thought for sure this woman thatlived to 122 would die before
(22:53):
him and she just didn't.
And then his heirs were payingfor that property.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
That's really very funny.
That's a very funny story.
Well, I did learn that lesson.
I 100% agree with you thatthat's not the way it often goes
, sadly, and I learned thatlesson pretty hard.
I used to have my kids, whenthey were really little, take
pictures with my grandparents.
So my kids had three of theirgreat-grandparents, which is
pretty amazing.
I used to always take pictureswith them and then they outlived
(23:23):
my own father, so that was areal smack in the face.
So I learned that lesson reallyhard.
There really is no order ofthings and what we expect isn't
always what happens for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I think if you get to have the order, it's a real
blessing, like I think what ablessing it is If you know your
parents and your grandparentsand you have children and people
kind of go in the order.
That is the most pleasant,potentially because we all know
that we're going to go.
We just don't know what orderit's going to be or how Right
(23:57):
Like there are accidents, thingshappen.
It doesn't have to be fromnatural causes, there's always
just life that occurs.
I know that today we're talkingabout where's desire in the room
, in ourselves, when health isthe alarm that's ringing,
(24:19):
whether in ourselves or insomeone we're caring for,
whether in ourselves or insomeone we're caring for.
And now we're talking about youknow this inevitable death that
happens and we don't reallyknow the sequence.
We know the sequence we desire,what would feel most
comfortable when natural orderis happening and how to be with
(24:42):
all of it and still feeling intoyour desire.
I love that you talked aboutmaking sure that you show up for
your business, making sure thatyou handle your commitments,
whether it's a podcast orsomething or something else.
Is there anything else thatcomes to mind for you that
you're like when I'm caring forsomeone else.
I'm making sure these thingsare handled in my life.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
You're like when I'm caring for someone else.
I'm making sure these thingsare handled in my life.
A story that comes up for me iswhen my father was in the
hospital.
This was 2001.
This was before 9-11.
And I was teaching at the timeand I taught in the morning and
I taught in the afternoon.
I had one class in the middle ofthe day and my assistant
principal God bless his soul, hewas absolutely amazing.
His name was Herb and I alwaystold him how amazing he was,
(25:26):
because he truly was.
He would cover my sixth periodclass so I could go during the
middle of the day and visit myfather in the hospital.
So I would teach in the morning, go visit him and come back and
teach and then go home to mylittle kids at home.
It was really a very busy timeand the gift in that was here.
Here.
I am still talking about it allthese years later because what
(25:46):
he did for me was absolutelygorgeous.
He very easily could have saidoh no, brenda, you need to teach
that sixth period class.
And what a beautiful gift thatI received.
What a beautiful, beautifulgift.
And he would always say to mefamily comes first and I was
also handling my stuff.
(26:06):
He would always say as well,people come to me with problems
all the time, but if you come tome with a solution, then I'm
going to back you all the way.
And so he would cover me and mystudents were very happy.
I was able to go see my father,which meant my kids were
happier and it was just easierfor me overall.
And so I think the hidden giftsin these moments are quite
(26:31):
beautiful, like there's justangels everywhere who do really
want to show up for us and wantit to be good for us and want to
help us.
And the really important pieceis asking for what you need and
want.
Like it felt like kind of a bigask to go out in the middle of
the day several times a weekduring my work day, but I asked
(26:55):
for it.
I think a lot of peoplewouldn't even ask so
communicating it, showing up toreceive it, and then I just kept
asking and at some point he wasjust like just tell me what you
need and I'll cover it.
So there's a lot of reallybeautiful gifts to receive and
funny stories as well.
You know, a lot of funnystories.
(27:16):
It's not all doom and gloom, youknow if we're in approval of
what's happening.
Oh, somebody's not doing well.
There are some beautifulmoments that come out of that
and it's really important tonotice those things, because
grief is such a deep emotion andit's something that we all
(27:37):
don't want to feel yet.
It is a part of life, like youwere saying, and when we're
really in it, boy are we tappedin to something so much deeper.
We are tapped into our love.
There's a softness that's therebecause all the protections
come off because we're in grief.
(27:57):
I have found that in moments ofgrief, my heart is cracked open
and I am available for peoplein life in a way that I'm not
always available when I'm on aschedule, trying to make this or
that appointment, talk topeople.
You know doing my groovingthing that I do.
(28:18):
It's a really important pieceto notice that.
It's not something that we want, grief, but there's beautiful
gifts inside of it.
We can receive those gifts andstill want the person that we're
with to live.
They're not separate.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
You can have both that when we're in grief and
when we're back to the basics,we have such an opportunity to
ask for help and make space formiracles.
We have the opportunity to askfor help and strengthen our
(28:56):
community and our connectionswith other people, with those we
love and those whom love us.
Strengthen our community withpeople that maybe there isn't
love in the room, but they aremore than happy and willing to
be of service and do their partas part of the community at
large.
I love how you said it's notthat desire isn't in the room,
(29:20):
it's that it just soundsdifferent.
And it's.
Yes, we're not shooting for thestars, we're really wanting to
go back to the basics.
And what in the basics can weenhance?
Like what part of the basicsyou said for you right now, it's
(29:40):
how can I show up to the bestof my ability?
And I also hear and since Iknow you, I know that you're
taking really good care ofyourself, and I think that's a
better way than how we've beentaught to just give out all of
yourself and then there'snothing left and you're sort of
picking up the pieces.
(30:01):
I really, really hope that thisepisode landed for you, that
you've been able to feel intowhat happens to your desire when
either you're the person that'shaving a health challenge or
you're helping somebody elsethat's having a health challenge
and pause, reflect, askyourself what do you need, Ask
(30:21):
for the help if it's needed, ifit's necessary, or even if it's
not necessary.
Just ask for whatever you needso that this time could be
easier for you and you get toenjoy your loved ones to the
best of your ability, that youget to enjoy your own life to
the best of your ability, andI'm not going to pretend like
this is easy.
Brenda talked about grief.
Like this is a time wherethere's grief, whether it's your
(30:44):
own health or the health ofsomeone else.
When health problems occur,there is grief in the room
because we have an idea we wantto be strong and young forever.
I know I see 70-year-olds and80-year-olds that say I may be
80 on the timeline and I feel 20inside.
(31:05):
Right, we all feel like littlekids inside.
So taking care of ourselves sothat we can be the best
expression of ourselves is soimportant.
I really hope that this episodetouched you as it has me and,
if you feel so, called.
Please write a review on ApplePodcasts, send a snapshot, a
(31:27):
screenshot, let me know.
Bye for now.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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