September 10, 2025 • 39 mins
The gap between knowing and doing is often the hardest part of personal growth. In this episode, Brenda and Catherine explore what embodiment truly means and how to bridge the distance between intellectual understanding and lived experience.
What happens when advice like "love yourself more" feels impossible? Why do we scroll until 1 AM even though we know better? Through personal stories—Catherine’s evolving relationship with money and Brenda’s late-night encounter with dill pickle chips—they show how embodiment requires more than knowledge. It takes practice, mistakes, and self-compassion.
At the center of their conversation is desire, the force that drives change. Desire can motivate action, but it can also feel overwhelming when the next step is unclear. Brenda and Catherine invite listeners to honor their desires without shame and follow the breadcrumbs, even when progress feels slow.
They also discuss the four stages of competence, a reminder that today’s struggle becomes tomorrow’s ease. Like children learning to walk, we build strength through repeated attempts and gradually transform information into embodied wisdom.
In a world saturated with advice but lacking integration, this conversation offers a practical and compassionate guide to becoming who you know you are—one imperfect step at a time.
Episode Highlights
• The gap between having information and living it out
• How deep desire moves us from inspiration to action
• Claiming desires without shame as part of growth
• Practicing self-compassion when we fall short
• The four stages of competence: from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence
• Personal examples around money, scrolling habits, and food
• Embodiment as a process of repeated attempts and gradual strength-building
• The role of community in supporting embodiment
Brenda and Catherine invite listeners who want support in this work to reach out for one-on-one coaching.
Like, Rate, Review and Share this episode. Thanks in advance for your support.
Click the links below for 1:1 support.
Email Us:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Connect on Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student,
(00:58):
even after decades of inner work.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
We are humble beginners on the mat, still
exploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back, fami, friends,listeners, brenda and I are
(01:33):
excited to be here with you.
We are actually now on seasonthree of the Desire as Medicine
podcast.
Super psyched for that.
We've had a great year.
In September we'll be hitting.
Actually, if there are 52 weeksin a year, that would be 104.
We've definitely hit.
We are in our third year.
This is so exciting I don'tthink I did the math, folks,
(01:58):
until right this minute.
So super psyched and wow,that's three years recording and
about a year and a half thatBrenda and I were meeting prior
to and we did some clubhouserecordings before that.
While they weren't recorded,they were sort of like we spoke
and it was gone, not recorded,some non-recorded radio style
(02:22):
episodes.
So we're talking four and ahalf years.
So celebrate with me becauseI'm like, wow, this is fantastic
.
One of the things that I've beenwanting to talk about with
Brenda and you guys isembodiment, and what does that
mean?
I think that in the self-helprealm, people talk about
embodiment all the time Like, isit in the body or is it just
(02:46):
outside of the body?
Is it like in the mind, is itan idea or is it actually in the
3D?
Like, can we see it?
And one of the ways that I seethis a lot and often is I will
have clients that have a lot ofinformation in their mind but it
doesn't translate into how theywalk through the world or how
(03:08):
they behave in the world.
And we're not there yet.
But I had spoken to Brenda andsaid, hey, I would love for us
to have some experts on to talkabout that, like what it looks
like.
But before we bring on someexperts, she and I are going to
jam on it.
I'm going to jam on it.
It's like what is that bridgebetween what we think and how it
(03:28):
shows up in the outer behavior,like how the world can see it?
And there are definitelypractices that we can do.
I'm sure Brenda has tons ofpractices, so I'm sure when I
turn the mic over, she can talkabout some embodiment practices.
I would say for me, my biggestembodiment practice is choice.
(03:51):
So if I have decided, forexample, that I'm not somebody
that scrolls at nighttime, thenthat means when nighttime comes,
I put my phone in a locationwhere I can't scroll on it, and
that action is somewhat of anembodied action, because I have
the thought I don't want to be ascroller, I want to identify as
a person who is a non-scroller,and that identity work is also
(04:16):
embodiment work.
It's like how do you become theperson that you want to become,
and then what actions arerequired to be taken?
But if it's only knowledge inmy mind that says, oh, I
shouldn't be somebody that'sscrolling, but I don't take any
action, I don't have anybehavioral change, then there's
really no embodiment, it's justknowledge.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Brenda, how do you go from wanting something to
actually doing it?
And I think you touched on oneof the hardest things.
Nobody really wants to bescrolling at night.
I think so many people aresaying that, yet so many people
are just scrolling at night.
So how do you make that bridge?
It's a great question.
I'm going to try to answer it.
(04:57):
First of all, you got to wantit.
You have to want it so bad thatwe're talking about desire.
You have to want something somuch that you're willing to take
the action to have it.
One of my teachers used to saywe either move from inspiration
(05:18):
or desperation, and it's rarelyinspiration.
So maybe we have to experiencesome pain, and I think that's
kind of a human way, likesomething has to hurt or we have
to feel a rub or we have tofeel some discomfort in order to
make a change.
Now, I'm not saying we alwayshave to have that in order to
(05:39):
make a change.
No, when we get better atlistening, then we can actually
hear the pebble instead of therock or the boulder falling on
us, where the boulder is so loudand painful that we have no
choice but to make a change.
But through the practice oflistening, we can actually
listen to the pebble.
That's great.
But for those of us that aren'talways there yet, we generally
(06:03):
need to feel some kind ofdiscomfort.
So maybe that's oh my God, Ican't fall asleep because of the
light in my eyes.
Or maybe I'm reallydisconnected from my partner
because I'm on my phone everynight.
Or maybe it's oh my God.
I know, when I first startedgoing on TikTok a few years ago
I don't go on TikTok anymore.
It just became a shit show.
(06:23):
It's very addicting.
I was on that thing till one ortwo in the morning and I didn't
care.
So I had to do that a few timesbefore I was willing to make a
change.
I had to be really tired thenext day before I was willing to
say I am not going on my phoneat night.
So there needs to be some kindof discomfort.
(06:45):
Now, if you listen to the desire, like I said, great.
But if you don't, there's maybesome discomfort which kind of
backs up your desire, saying, ohyeah, let's do this thing,
let's do this thing, and thenyou just have to try it.
You know, you just have to bewilling to take the action and
do it.
That's hard and it does requiresome self-love.
(07:09):
It requires the ability to sayand know that you're worth it,
that you're worth it, thatliving the life that I want to
live requires me to feel goodduring the day so I can show up
to my business, to myrelationships for myself,
(07:32):
because those are my creations.
So if I'm on TikTok or whatevertill two in the morning, then
I'm actually justself-sabotaging because I'm not
able to fully show up for mycreations, which is my life.
So backing our desires helps usshow up for our life and then
(07:54):
build the life that we want.
Otherwise we're justself-sabotaging.
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So I'm hearing you talk about like, okay, we have
to increase desire.
If we want to implementsomething that we know in our
minds and then we want to see itin action either ourselves
taking that action or see thecreation of something different
in our lives we have to increaseour desire for it, like really
(08:20):
want it.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, and it's increasing desire, but I think
we also love to long.
We love to want things and noteven not necessarily take the
action for it.
So, yes, we need to increaseour desire, but our desire could
be really big and then we couldjust be victimized by it, or it
could seem so elusive that wecan't have it.
The desire has to be there insome form, and maybe it just
(08:43):
needs to sit for a while beforewe're willing to take action on
it.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Can you say that differently, when you say we
have an increased desire?
Sometimes we can want somethingreally badly, but instead we
feel we want to be victimized byit.
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Well, it means that we have a desire and we don't
know how to have it.
We have a desire and we don'tknow how to have it, and so it
just becomes something that weuse against ourself in our life,
like I can't have this thing.
It's so big I can't have it.
Oh, woe is me.
Instead of what we're generallytalking about in our
(09:20):
conversations of I want thisthing, it's really big, I don't
know how to have it and I'm justgoing to sit with it, I'm just
going to own and admit that Ihave this desire and sit with it
and follow the breadcrumbstowards it, and it might be
really slow.
We like immediate gratificationin this world and some desires
(09:42):
are so big they're not immediate.
This world and some desires areso big they're not immediate
and we need to be willing to sitin it and whatever that means
for everyone.
I know for me, when I have areally big desire, come in, I
just love to tell people aboutit.
I just love to say I want thisthing, I want this thing, I want
this thing and I just love tojuice myself up and share it
(10:03):
with my friends and with theworld and with the universe,
like claim it.
We have to claim that we wantsomething and be willing to hold
that, and that requires theability to say I'm worth it.
You know, we can't be in shamelike, oh my God, I want this
thing, like you have to be inapproval that you're a woman who
(10:26):
wants something and you don'tknow how to have it.
It's very vulnerable, veryvulnerable, to say I want
something and I don't know howto have it.
I know so many amazing womenright now who are looking for
partners and they're like, oh, Iwant this thing.
And I see some of them postingon Facebook.
They're in their stories goingokay, I'm going out tonight, I'm
in search of my husband andit's great.
(10:48):
They're just like fully owningthat and I have that myself.
I've shared that on thispodcast.
I have a desire for my own home.
I'm not sure how to have thatright now, but I'm sitting in it
, I'm talking about it, I'mowning it and I'm saying I want
this thing.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Universe, show me the way.
So if I were to translate itwhen you say oh, you know,
sometimes we want something, wedon't know how to have it, so we
become victimized by it, then adifferent way of saying that is
if I don't know how to have it,then what was me?
It must not be for me.
If I don't know how to have it,then woe is me.
(11:28):
It must not be for me, or itmust be that I can't have it.
Versus what you're saying,instead of saying I don't know
how to have it, can I be withjust the desire of it and see
what opens, and not put thedesire down, like never say to
myself down.
Like never say to myself, oh,it must not be for me.
Never say to myself, oh, thismust mean that it's not meant
(11:51):
for me, or I can't have it or Idon't have that blessing.
There's a phrase or a quote ofthat which you desire.
Desires you back and believingthat, above the voices in your
head that are saying well, ifit's not here or you don't know
how, well, then it must not be.
Opening yourself to,potentially, to the miracle or
the possibility, as opposed toclosing yourself off because of
(12:16):
the unknown path.
So, instead of not being withthe unknown, we're just going to
close the desire up, shut it upand put it in the closet
somewhere on a shelf where it'snever to be touched again.
So in this conversation aroundknowledge and then embodiment,
if I'm hearing us correctlyright now, we're saying well,
(12:37):
you have the knowledge or youhave the desire of something,
how to gain something, and thenhow do you implement those
actions of something, how togain something, and then how do
you implement those actions?
And the act of implementing isalso about being open to any
possibility, but having tochoose that action over and over
(12:59):
.
So the examples that we used ofwanting to be somebody that
doesn't scroll so the way that Iembody that is by not scrolling
.
And so if, for some reason, Iwere to scroll, then I get to
ask okay, what can I implement?
That won't have me do that.
The thing I've been able toimplement is that I just keep it
in a different room so thatit's not with me, so I'm not
(13:20):
touching it or looking for it.
So I'm not touching it orlooking for it.
If we were to look at theversion of I want to have a
house, right, I am a person whoowns my own home, then the
embodied actions that are takenare really different than
somebody who's a non-scrollerright.
(13:41):
It's like a completelydifferent path and, being open
to what that looks like, are youseeing any other connections
between embodiment and knowledge, like what we know is good for
us and then?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
how to do it.
We have to be willing to try,we have to be willing to fail,
(14:19):
we have to be willing to mess itup, which is divinely human and
, again, really vulnerable.
We can't expect ourselves tojust be able to say I want this.
We're in an immediategratification society and, my
goodness, college students areordering Uber Eats.
I had to get myself to thechicken wing place to get
chicken wings when I was incollege.
Like, everything is just veryimmediate these days, so we're
not necessarily in tune withholding our desire or waiting a
(14:40):
long time for things, and so wehave to be willing to try it and
fail.
We have to be willing to scrollat night and then be like, oh
shit, look what I did last night, Aren't I adorable.
I scrolled until 1am, oh mygoodness, and not beat yourself
up for it, or this is why Ialways say trusting the journey
(15:04):
there.
You may beat yourself up for it,you know.
You may beat yourself up awhile for not having the thing
or taking the action and itdoesn't quite go the way you
want.
But are you willing to staywith yourself?
That's the question.
Are you willing to stay withyourself and say, ok, we're
going to try again tomorrowbecause, god willing, if we're
(15:27):
living every day, every day is arenewable resource.
You know, god willing, we'lltonight have the opportunity to
put our phone in the other roomand not scroll, and if we don't
do it tonight, then we can tryagain tomorrow.
But are you willing to do that?
Or are you just going to sayfuck it, I can't do this, I suck
(15:53):
, I'm just going to have toscroll at night.
Or are you not willing to justparent yourself and put your
phone in the other room?
This is just a great example.
But whatever the thing is, youknow we have to take care of
ourselves, and it is parentingourselves and walking ourselves
(16:15):
to the other room and puttingour phone in the kitchen and
then going back to the bedroom.
Are you willing to take that inthis conversation, like the
ability to say I'm worth it andI think that's a great strategy
for you.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
It's not verbiage I would use.
I would be more of, I'm notgoing to quit, like the only way
to fail is to quit, and I wouldsay, okay, I didn't get it this
time, I'm just going to tryagain.
I'm just going to try again.
I'm just going to try again.
Okay, what else can I implementthat will make it this easier?
And I'm going to try again.
And I know we're using thissilly like I'm not going to
(17:01):
scroll as an example tohighlight the bridge between who
we are, the bridge between whowe are, what we know and how to
implement who we are and what weknow into behavior Like what is
the thing that is necessary?
Now I'm going to bring in adifferent topic to the same idea
(17:24):
around.
Let's say just self-love, forexample.
I hear this a lot, I've seen ita lot, I've been told this
before.
Oh, you just need to loveyourself more, and I have found
that to be extremely not helpful, because how do you do that?
And it can be so different forso many people, and it can be so
(17:47):
different for so many people.
What does that even look like?
Yes, there are just topics thatare a lot bigger than just put
the phone down, don't scroll, or.
I'm just going to keep it in mymind's eye.
I have that desire to be ahomeowner.
I'm going to keep it top ofmind.
I'm going to, as they say,stoke the fire.
(18:07):
I'm going to look at differenthouses, get on Zillow, see if I
can go to open houses, feel intowhat it would feel like to have
that desire come to fruition.
But when we're talking aboutknowledge that we have in our
bodies, and then how do we?
I guess not.
How do we?
But the phrase that comes tomind is how often people will
(18:31):
say to one another oh, I knewbetter, right, and we think then
we want to get down onourselves because we knew better
but we didn't take the action.
And I would argue that thatbridge between what we know and
how we implement isn't fullydeveloped quite yet.
We're not taking the necessaryactions on the other side.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, and I think it gets developed by practicing,
implementing it.
There's no way to avoid that.
There's no way to avoid being ahuman in the practice of desire
.
There's no way to avoid justtrying stuff out and it not
working.
And this is really where welearn to be loving and kind with
(19:17):
ourselves and have compassionfor ourselves, because, I don't
know, a lot of us weren't bornthat way.
Well, let me say, we actuallyare born that way, but we learn
over time to beat ourselves up.
But it requires an enormousamount of compassion and
self-acceptance to messsomething up or not, do it quote
(19:38):
right or it didn't turn out theway you wished, or maybe you
hurt people along the way,whatever the thing is, and just
to say, oh my goodness, takeresponsibility for that.
And then move on and not getstuck in the barrel of shame and
guilt and regret, you know, andjust say, ok, I'm human, what
(20:04):
can I learn here and what do Iwant to do tomorrow?
And then do it.
And it might just also not beas simple as that.
Sometimes we do repeat the samemistake over and over again.
Why do we date people that arewrong for us?
Why did I eat dill potato chipslast night.
(20:24):
Dill pickle potato chips lastnight.
Why did I do that?
I already knew that that's notgreat for me at night.
I woke up this morning feelinglike shit from it, but clearly I
just needed to learn thatlesson again.
Is it the end of the world?
Am I going to beat myself up?
No, but I guess I needed areminder and we have to be
willing to be with that part ofourselves ourselves.
(20:54):
We're not here to have aperfect journey.
We're here to be a human andlearn lessons and maybe have
some fun along the way.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Thank you so much for the example of dill potato
chips.
I was like dill or even saltand vinegar chips sound
absolutely amazing to me rightnow.
But I digress.
I almost want to spit fire andtalk about the things that I
wanted to have that fall under.
I know it in my mind, but howwill it look when it's actually
(21:20):
implemented?
So self-love is definitely oneof them, right, like the idea of
oh, I want to love myself.
Yes, I want to be somebody thatwalks through the world and
exhibit self-love.
Oh, I want to have thestrongest boundaries ever.
Yes, I want to walk through theworld and have strong
boundaries.
Oh, yes, I want to be a greatcommunicator.
I want to walk through theworld without getting activated
(21:44):
and be completely unruly andjust say some really crazy
things on the other side.
These are the boundariescommunication, self-love.
What else comes to mind?
Confident, right, how to beconfident in things, how to not
self-sabotage I guess that's aword that you use.
What are other things that cometo mind that are part of the
(22:08):
personal growth and developmentjourney that we want to be able
to do in action?
But there is a time where it'sjust in the mind.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Totally.
How about not being judgmental?
That's a good one, acceptingpeople where they are being
loving to yourself and to others, right?
I think these are all thingsthat we want to do and sometimes
we do them and sometimes wedon't.
And I know a lot of people whoare like, well, I'm just
judgmental.
Even people on the other sideof like a quote spiritual person
(22:36):
they're like, well, I'm justjudgmental, I can't seem to
change that about myself and I'mjust going to love myself Now.
Are my actions outward going toreflect that?
No, but yeah, you might have togo through the journey of that
before you actually get to theplace where you can be loving,
but you have to accept yourselfwhere you are.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I think judging is hard, to not be judgmental
because we have opinions and Ithink the important part with
judgmental, the important partto remember if you're someone
that's wanting to not bejudgmental Judgmental the
important part to remember ifyou're someone that's wanting to
not be judgmental is to knowthat you are judging based on
your own opinion and thatopinion that you have is based
(23:15):
on perception and thatperception you have is based on
your own filter.
So it will differ with anotherhuman who has a different filter
, different perception anddifferent judgment.
I think being nonjudgmentaltaps into understanding.
This is just my opinion and Imay not be right.
(23:39):
I don't have a way of knowingif I'm right, whether it's in my
own life because I'm not Godand that's God's business and in
someone else's life I have ajudgment or an opinion, but it's
definitely not my business,that's their business and God's
(24:00):
business.
So we've given some greatexamples on many different
things that we want to practice.
We want to practice not beingjudgmental.
We want to practice beingloving and accepting.
We want to practice acceptinglife as is right, as Byron Katie
.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
So lovingly wrote a book Loving what Is.
(24:43):
We want to do those things, butit requires a lot of trial, a
lot, and we have our ownconditioning and beliefs.
And first of all you have tonotice that you even have those.
And then you have here's wheredesire comes in again.
It's like, oh, I really wannabe more loving and kind and
accepting of people.
Well, you have to be willing toeven.
Like you said, they're youropinions.
Well, you have to recognizethat.
(25:04):
So awareness is a really hugepiece that could take years to
just for that to drop in.
I did a lot of meditating at thebeginning of my personal
development journey, a lot ofmeditating to develop that other
, the observer inside of me.
To be able to see that.
That takes years.
And then, once you start doingthat, then you just start seeing
(25:27):
things pop around you.
It's like, oh, look at that.
Oh, look at that, look how I'mseeing things pop around you.
It's like, oh, look at that.
Oh, look at that, look how I'mjudgmental here.
Okay, then you just start seeingit, but you don't quite know
how to do it differently.
Yet All of these steps arepotentially years, you know.
And then, even when you know itall.
Then you still eat dill, pickle, potato chips at night and
(25:50):
you're like okay, well, no, I'mnot saying I know it all.
I certainly do not, but I'vepracticed all of these things
and I can mess it up on anyparticular day and it's where I
need to just say, okay, brenda,we're going to do it again
tomorrow and potentiallyapologize Very often it's to my
partner because we spend timetogether and I'm like oops,
sorry about that, you know,we'll just go from here.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Sorry about that, because you force him to eat
dill chips.
Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
No, he wouldn't eat that.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I hear what you're saying.
There are various steps toembodiment and this is like the
work that you and I do, right,with our clients.
Like where are they right now?
Can we find acceptance forwhere they are?
Definitely, we do this in ourone-to-one coaching.
How can we like what's the nextstep for them?
(26:46):
Because it looks different forso many people.
As I'm listening to you and I'mlistening to the dill chip story
, I'm like, oh, you're just notover dill chips yet, right, like
you're not on the other side ofdill chips, that's it.
And then there comes a pointwhere you're on the other side
of dill chips.
I'm trying to think of whatthat would be for me right now
(27:08):
when something becomes embodied.
So I'll share something that wehaven't really touched on yet.
It's my relationship with money.
I've been working on myrelationship with money since
2015.
I've been in.
I've had to consolidate debt.
I've had to take out a personalloan for debt.
I've had to.
Yeah, my money journey has sortof been up down, up down.
I've had to take out a personalloan for debt.
(27:29):
I've had to.
Yeah, my money journey has sortof been up down, up down.
I've had times where I didn'thave any debt.
I lived debt-free for a reallylong time, so I've become
intimate with my way of spendingmoney, my way of saving money.
I'm intimate right now with mydesires for retirement and what
that looks like.
But there are certain thingsthat I do that I want to say are
(27:50):
pretty embodied now.
But I'm not on the other sidejust yet.
I'm like close, but not fully.
So.
One of the things that I do allthe time well, I want to say
all the time, but daily I lookat my balances daily and I input
my expenses like whatever Ispent on.
Input my expenses like whateverI spent on, down to like $2,
(28:14):
anything that's 0.01.
Like, if I spent a penny, I'mjotting it down.
But there's a version of mewhere I definitely did not want
to do this.
I was a strong believer of,like I really stood behind just
make more money, just make moremoney, just make more money.
And for those of you that arenot past the 50 marker, I say
this because Brenda and I arebut our energy levels changed
(28:36):
and we spoke about this partearlier like when the pain, the
discomfort starts to really,really change and I was like, oh
, my body doesn't want to doharder or more so with the
practice of money, you can onlycut expenses or make more, and I
think when you're in theearlier years, you can't fathom
(28:58):
what it's going to look or feellike when you can't do more,
because it's not part of thereality yet yet.
And then it comes into reality.
And so how do you dance withthat change of reality?
Oh, this is something I reallyhave to play with and be on top
of, because I want to see myselfas someone where I am not
(29:18):
jolting my nervous systembecause of something that I've
spent, that it's outside of myrealm to spend or outside of my
capacity to spend for all of theother goals that I have, all
the other priorities that I have, and so it's a really
interesting dance, even when westart changing our behaviors and
(29:39):
we're changing our behaviorsbecause we want to be this
different version of us and weknow what it's going to take.
And how do we become?
Oh, now I'm thinking ofsomething completely that we
haven't brought in yet to theconversation how do we become
unconsciously competent?
How do we become consciouslycompetent?
(30:01):
There are all these ways, right, there's.
Like you stated, we can't changesomething that's not in our
awareness If we're just saying,well, I'm just judgmental, this
is who I am, that's us not beingin any way, shape or form, open
to the possibility of what itwould look like to not be
judgmental.
(30:21):
And what will it take from us?
One of the biggest things thatnot being judgmental took from
me was to really look at all thetimes that I was wrong and
saying what if that's actually,more often than not, like I have
an opinion of something thathas nothing to do with me, it's
not my business, not my lane,and I want to interject?
(30:43):
And what if they are doing itexactly the way that they need
to do it for their particularlesson?
That I am not even privy to,because I don't know, because
it's not my business and mywisdom is not there?
Yes, I'm going to pause rightnow as I think about the
competence force.
I don't know what we call thatgrid.
(31:03):
It's not a grid.
I'm making a sign for Brendahere, a continuum.
It's like four squares, yeah,but the grid maybe.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, this is great.
You gave some really greatexamples of how you worked with
your money and how you took itfrom something you've wanted
into something that you'reactually living and you're
changing how you are with yourmoney so you could have
something different on the otherside as you move into
retirement, and that is reallybeautiful.
(31:37):
Yeah, the not my business part.
I mean, you hold some reallybig medicine there.
You're really good at that andwe've done a bunch of episodes
on that.
I'm just always amazed at howgreat you are about staying in
your own lane.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
For the stages.
It's called the four stages ofcompetence.
So you're unconsciouslyincompetent.
It means you are incompetent insomething and you have a zero
consciousness around the thingthat you are incompetent in,
like nope, I don't know what, Idon't know, like, I just don't
know what I don't know.
And then the next stack is youare consciously incompetent.
(32:12):
You're like I now know that I'mnot good at that thing.
Like I am incompetent at thatand I am consciously incompetent
.
I am very aware that I am notgood at that.
And then you start practicingconscious competence, like how
can I be more conscious aroundthis?
(32:33):
How can I be more consciousaround this thing that I want to
be, learn, do?
And then it becomes somethingthat you can do with your eyes
closed.
You're totally likeunconsciously competent.
The best example I have of thisis like driving a car.
It's something that you can doand to completely tune out and
(32:54):
just be doing it.
Or tying your shoelaces,brushing your teeth, making the
bed, you no longer have toconsciously think about oh, this
is how I tuck the corners in.
Oh, this is how I put thetoothpaste on.
Oh, this is how I tuck thecorners in.
Oh, this is how I put thetoothpaste on.
Oh, this is how I turn the caron right.
You're just going fromunconscious incompetence to
conscious incompetence,conscious competence and then
(33:18):
unconsciously competent.
I just wanted to make sure thatI shared that because I think,
ultimately, that's the thing.
I think ultimately that's thething when we're really embodied
.
It's completely unconsciouscompetence, like it's just
something you do.
It's who you are, hands down,and the great news around this
(33:45):
is today's easy was yesterday'shard, and today's hard is
tomorrow's easy, and tomorrow'shard hasn't even shown up yet.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And it's just how we grow.
It's absolutely beautiful.
That was gorgeous.
Thank you so much.
I feel inspired right there.
I think the quadrant that we'retalking about is learning to be
conscious, like understandingthat we're consciously
incompetent and we're willing topractice it.
That's really what we'retalking about in so much of our
conversations here.
(34:19):
Take some self-love and backingand commitment and caring for
ourselves and willingness tomess it up and come back again,
and a lot of confidence to justsay I'm learning to do this
(34:40):
thing, I'm learning to work withmy money, I don't really quite
know how to put my phone in theother room, I don't know how to
have the home that I want, andbeing willing to just stand tall
with your shoulders loud andproud, and up and say I'm
working on this, that'sbeautiful.
I think that's really beautifulleadership to be able to say
(35:03):
something like that.
Say something like that insteadof I have it all figured out
and then underneath it's a houseof cards that's just going to
fall apart.
I think we're willing to behonest with ourselves and say I
don't know how to do this, I'mworking on it.
It's divinely human and itgives permission for other
people to do the same, becausehow else do we learn?
(35:25):
There is no other way.
No child goes from sitting upat six months old to fully
walking.
No, they fall over.
Kids fall over for many, manytimes before they're a competent
walker.
And can we do that withourselves?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I love that example because the other thing that
comes to mind when I think aboutchildren walking which is one
of my favorite examples oflearning is that muscles are
being built in between right,like your baby has belly time,
has neck time.
It's like the baby has to gothrough all of these stages so
that it could be strong enoughto do the act of walking.
Likewise us when there'ssomething we want to implement,
(36:06):
whether it's better boundaries.
Likewise us when there'ssomething we want to implement,
whether it's better boundaries.
Oh, my goodness, I picked upthat phone call with this person
that's totally negative.
Or insert the thing that youdon't like at 9.30 at night,
like I really have to learn tonot do that Right and it's going
to require doing it over andover and over and over and over
(36:26):
again and being reminded whyit's not a good idea until you
start to change that.
But none of that is happening.
If you don't know that there'ssomething wrong with that call
at 9.30.
If you don't know how it feelsafter the call, if you don't
know that you didn't reallyenjoy the phone call, if you
don't know that you have theability to not answer the phone,
that it doesn't make you a badperson, that you're not going to
(36:47):
hell or purgatory for it.
We have to be conscious of thechoices.
We have to even implementsomething different.
Brenda's giving me a smile.
I feel like we have gone tomany places today on the map.
I really wanted to talk aboutwhat is embodiment and how do we
(37:08):
become the person that walksthrough the world with all the
knowledge that we have,especially in this day and age
where chat, gpt or books are alljust chat GPT.
Right, I said B, I think it's P, like Peter.
(37:28):
Chat GPT books, audio books,youtubes, reels, shorts are
giving us snippets of.
You just have to love yourselfmore.
You just need more power, youjust need more.
Insert the thing, boom, hook,close and then we're like but
(37:55):
what does that mean?
I know what I have to do, buthow do I do it?
And we're here today, brendaand I, to remind you that you do
it one practice, that you do it.
One practice, small step at atime.
One small step at a time,whether it's meditating on your
dream home, sharing witheverybody that you want the
(38:16):
dream home, deciding that you'renot going to take your phone
into your room, you're going tolive in another room so that
even if you want to touch it,it's not there or available for
you.
Or deciding I'm going to have abetter relationship with money
because I am not at a placewhere I can really work that
much harder.
Working two, three jobs as a50-year old is very different
(38:36):
than as a 20-year old.
How can I learn to live andlove to live within my means?
Oh, by seeing my bank balancesevery day.
This is going to help me withthat.
And, being honest, if you don'tknow what that looks like and
asking other people hey, whatdoes it look like for you to
have a good relationship withyour phone at night?
(38:57):
Hey, what does it look like ifyou wanted a new home?
What would you be doing orpracticing?
Oh, if you wanted a betterrelationship with money, where
would you start?
How would you do thingsdifferently?
Like turning to your communityfor ideas and if you want to be
led by Brenda or I, we are here.
We are open for business,always taking one-to-ones.
(39:17):
So if this is the kind of workthat you're looking to do, with
one of us as your guides, pleasereach out, click our links.
We would love to hear from youOn that.
Note rate share like thisepisode.
That's it for now.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student,
(00:58):
even after decades of inner work.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
We are humble beginners on the mat, still
exploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back, fami, friends,listeners, brenda and I are
(01:33):
excited to be here with you.
We are actually now on seasonthree of the Desire as Medicine
podcast.
Super psyched for that.
We've had a great year.
In September we'll be hitting.
Actually, if there are 52 weeksin a year, that would be 104.
We've definitely hit.
We are in our third year.
This is so exciting I don'tthink I did the math, folks,
(01:58):
until right this minute.
So super psyched and wow,that's three years recording and
about a year and a half thatBrenda and I were meeting prior
to and we did some clubhouserecordings before that.
While they weren't recorded,they were sort of like we spoke
and it was gone, not recorded,some non-recorded radio style
(02:22):
episodes.
So we're talking four and ahalf years.
So celebrate with me becauseI'm like, wow, this is fantastic
.
One of the things that I've beenwanting to talk about with
Brenda and you guys isembodiment, and what does that
mean?
I think that in the self-helprealm, people talk about
embodiment all the time Like, isit in the body or is it just
(02:46):
outside of the body?
Is it like in the mind, is itan idea or is it actually in the
3D?
Like, can we see it?
And one of the ways that I seethis a lot and often is I will
have clients that have a lot ofinformation in their mind but it
doesn't translate into how theywalk through the world or how
(03:08):
they behave in the world.
And we're not there yet.
But I had spoken to Brenda andsaid, hey, I would love for us
to have some experts on to talkabout that, like what it looks
like.
But before we bring on someexperts, she and I are going to
jam on it.
I'm going to jam on it.
It's like what is that bridgebetween what we think and how it
(03:28):
shows up in the outer behavior,like how the world can see it?
And there are definitelypractices that we can do.
I'm sure Brenda has tons ofpractices, so I'm sure when I
turn the mic over, she can talkabout some embodiment practices.
I would say for me, my biggestembodiment practice is choice.
(03:51):
So if I have decided, forexample, that I'm not somebody
that scrolls at nighttime, thenthat means when nighttime comes,
I put my phone in a locationwhere I can't scroll on it, and
that action is somewhat of anembodied action, because I have
the thought I don't want to be ascroller, I want to identify as
a person who is a non-scroller,and that identity work is also
(04:16):
embodiment work.
It's like how do you become theperson that you want to become,
and then what actions arerequired to be taken?
But if it's only knowledge inmy mind that says, oh, I
shouldn't be somebody that'sscrolling, but I don't take any
action, I don't have anybehavioral change, then there's
really no embodiment, it's justknowledge.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Brenda, how do you go from wanting something to
actually doing it?
And I think you touched on oneof the hardest things.
Nobody really wants to bescrolling at night.
I think so many people aresaying that, yet so many people
are just scrolling at night.
So how do you make that bridge?
It's a great question.
I'm going to try to answer it.
(04:57):
First of all, you got to wantit.
You have to want it so bad thatwe're talking about desire.
You have to want something somuch that you're willing to take
the action to have it.
One of my teachers used to saywe either move from inspiration
(05:18):
or desperation, and it's rarelyinspiration.
So maybe we have to experiencesome pain, and I think that's
kind of a human way, likesomething has to hurt or we have
to feel a rub or we have tofeel some discomfort in order to
make a change.
Now, I'm not saying we alwayshave to have that in order to
(05:39):
make a change.
No, when we get better atlistening, then we can actually
hear the pebble instead of therock or the boulder falling on
us, where the boulder is so loudand painful that we have no
choice but to make a change.
But through the practice oflistening, we can actually
listen to the pebble.
That's great.
But for those of us that aren'talways there yet, we generally
(06:03):
need to feel some kind ofdiscomfort.
So maybe that's oh my God, Ican't fall asleep because of the
light in my eyes.
Or maybe I'm reallydisconnected from my partner
because I'm on my phone everynight.
Or maybe it's oh my God.
I know, when I first startedgoing on TikTok a few years ago
I don't go on TikTok anymore.
It just became a shit show.
(06:23):
It's very addicting.
I was on that thing till one ortwo in the morning and I didn't
care.
So I had to do that a few timesbefore I was willing to make a
change.
I had to be really tired thenext day before I was willing to
say I am not going on my phoneat night.
So there needs to be some kindof discomfort.
(06:45):
Now, if you listen to the desire, like I said, great.
But if you don't, there's maybesome discomfort which kind of
backs up your desire, saying, ohyeah, let's do this thing,
let's do this thing, and thenyou just have to try it.
You know, you just have to bewilling to take the action and
do it.
That's hard and it does requiresome self-love.
(07:09):
It requires the ability to sayand know that you're worth it,
that you're worth it, thatliving the life that I want to
live requires me to feel goodduring the day so I can show up
to my business, to myrelationships for myself,
(07:32):
because those are my creations.
So if I'm on TikTok or whatevertill two in the morning, then
I'm actually justself-sabotaging because I'm not
able to fully show up for mycreations, which is my life.
So backing our desires helps usshow up for our life and then
(07:54):
build the life that we want.
Otherwise we're justself-sabotaging.
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So I'm hearing you talk about like, okay, we have
to increase desire.
If we want to implementsomething that we know in our
minds and then we want to see itin action either ourselves
taking that action or see thecreation of something different
in our lives we have to increaseour desire for it, like really
(08:20):
want it.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, and it's increasing desire, but I think
we also love to long.
We love to want things and noteven not necessarily take the
action for it.
So, yes, we need to increaseour desire, but our desire could
be really big and then we couldjust be victimized by it, or it
could seem so elusive that wecan't have it.
The desire has to be there insome form, and maybe it just
(08:43):
needs to sit for a while beforewe're willing to take action on
it.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Can you say that differently, when you say we
have an increased desire?
Sometimes we can want somethingreally badly, but instead we
feel we want to be victimized byit.
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Well, it means that we have a desire and we don't
know how to have it.
We have a desire and we don'tknow how to have it, and so it
just becomes something that weuse against ourself in our life,
like I can't have this thing.
It's so big I can't have it.
Oh, woe is me.
Instead of what we're generallytalking about in our
(09:20):
conversations of I want thisthing, it's really big, I don't
know how to have it and I'm justgoing to sit with it, I'm just
going to own and admit that Ihave this desire and sit with it
and follow the breadcrumbstowards it, and it might be
really slow.
We like immediate gratificationin this world and some desires
(09:42):
are so big they're not immediate.
This world and some desires areso big they're not immediate
and we need to be willing to sitin it and whatever that means
for everyone.
I know for me, when I have areally big desire, come in, I
just love to tell people aboutit.
I just love to say I want thisthing, I want this thing, I want
this thing and I just love tojuice myself up and share it
(10:03):
with my friends and with theworld and with the universe,
like claim it.
We have to claim that we wantsomething and be willing to hold
that, and that requires theability to say I'm worth it.
You know, we can't be in shamelike, oh my God, I want this
thing, like you have to be inapproval that you're a woman who
(10:26):
wants something and you don'tknow how to have it.
It's very vulnerable, veryvulnerable, to say I want
something and I don't know howto have it.
I know so many amazing womenright now who are looking for
partners and they're like, oh, Iwant this thing.
And I see some of them postingon Facebook.
They're in their stories goingokay, I'm going out tonight, I'm
in search of my husband andit's great.
(10:48):
They're just like fully owningthat and I have that myself.
I've shared that on thispodcast.
I have a desire for my own home.
I'm not sure how to have thatright now, but I'm sitting in it
, I'm talking about it, I'mowning it and I'm saying I want
this thing.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Universe, show me the way.
So if I were to translate itwhen you say oh, you know,
sometimes we want something, wedon't know how to have it, so we
become victimized by it, then adifferent way of saying that is
if I don't know how to have it,then what was me?
It must not be for me.
If I don't know how to have it,then woe is me.
(11:28):
It must not be for me, or itmust be that I can't have it.
Versus what you're saying,instead of saying I don't know
how to have it, can I be withjust the desire of it and see
what opens, and not put thedesire down, like never say to
myself down.
Like never say to myself, oh,it must not be for me.
Never say to myself, oh, thismust mean that it's not meant
(11:51):
for me, or I can't have it or Idon't have that blessing.
There's a phrase or a quote ofthat which you desire.
Desires you back and believingthat, above the voices in your
head that are saying well, ifit's not here or you don't know
how, well, then it must not be.
Opening yourself to,potentially, to the miracle or
the possibility, as opposed toclosing yourself off because of
(12:16):
the unknown path.
So, instead of not being withthe unknown, we're just going to
close the desire up, shut it upand put it in the closet
somewhere on a shelf where it'snever to be touched again.
So in this conversation aroundknowledge and then embodiment,
if I'm hearing us correctlyright now, we're saying well,
(12:37):
you have the knowledge or youhave the desire of something,
how to gain something, and thenhow do you implement those
actions of something, how togain something, and then how do
you implement those actions?
And the act of implementing isalso about being open to any
possibility, but having tochoose that action over and over
(12:59):
.
So the examples that we used ofwanting to be somebody that
doesn't scroll so the way that Iembody that is by not scrolling
.
And so if, for some reason, Iwere to scroll, then I get to
ask okay, what can I implement?
That won't have me do that.
The thing I've been able toimplement is that I just keep it
in a different room so thatit's not with me, so I'm not
(13:20):
touching it or looking for it.
So I'm not touching it orlooking for it.
If we were to look at theversion of I want to have a
house, right, I am a person whoowns my own home, then the
embodied actions that are takenare really different than
somebody who's a non-scrollerright.
(13:41):
It's like a completelydifferent path and, being open
to what that looks like, are youseeing any other connections
between embodiment and knowledge, like what we know is good for
us and then?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
how to do it.
We have to be willing to try,we have to be willing to fail,
(14:19):
we have to be willing to mess itup, which is divinely human and
, again, really vulnerable.
We can't expect ourselves tojust be able to say I want this.
We're in an immediategratification society and, my
goodness, college students areordering Uber Eats.
I had to get myself to thechicken wing place to get
chicken wings when I was incollege.
Like, everything is just veryimmediate these days, so we're
not necessarily in tune withholding our desire or waiting a
(14:40):
long time for things, and so wehave to be willing to try it and
fail.
We have to be willing to scrollat night and then be like, oh
shit, look what I did last night, Aren't I adorable.
I scrolled until 1am, oh mygoodness, and not beat yourself
up for it, or this is why Ialways say trusting the journey
(15:04):
there.
You may beat yourself up for it,you know.
You may beat yourself up awhile for not having the thing
or taking the action and itdoesn't quite go the way you
want.
But are you willing to staywith yourself?
That's the question.
Are you willing to stay withyourself and say, ok, we're
going to try again tomorrowbecause, god willing, if we're
(15:27):
living every day, every day is arenewable resource.
You know, god willing, we'lltonight have the opportunity to
put our phone in the other roomand not scroll, and if we don't
do it tonight, then we can tryagain tomorrow.
But are you willing to do that?
Or are you just going to sayfuck it, I can't do this, I suck
(15:53):
, I'm just going to have toscroll at night.
Or are you not willing to justparent yourself and put your
phone in the other room?
This is just a great example.
But whatever the thing is, youknow we have to take care of
ourselves, and it is parentingourselves and walking ourselves
(16:15):
to the other room and puttingour phone in the kitchen and
then going back to the bedroom.
Are you willing to take that inthis conversation, like the
ability to say I'm worth it andI think that's a great strategy
for you.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
It's not verbiage I would use.
I would be more of, I'm notgoing to quit, like the only way
to fail is to quit, and I wouldsay, okay, I didn't get it this
time, I'm just going to tryagain.
I'm just going to try again.
I'm just going to try again.
Okay, what else can I implementthat will make it this easier?
And I'm going to try again.
And I know we're using thissilly like I'm not going to
(17:01):
scroll as an example tohighlight the bridge between who
we are, the bridge between whowe are, what we know and how to
implement who we are and what weknow into behavior Like what is
the thing that is necessary?
Now I'm going to bring in adifferent topic to the same idea
(17:24):
around.
Let's say just self-love, forexample.
I hear this a lot, I've seen ita lot, I've been told this
before.
Oh, you just need to loveyourself more, and I have found
that to be extremely not helpful, because how do you do that?
And it can be so different forso many people, and it can be so
(17:47):
different for so many people.
What does that even look like?
Yes, there are just topics thatare a lot bigger than just put
the phone down, don't scroll, or.
I'm just going to keep it in mymind's eye.
I have that desire to be ahomeowner.
I'm going to keep it top ofmind.
I'm going to, as they say,stoke the fire.
(18:07):
I'm going to look at differenthouses, get on Zillow, see if I
can go to open houses, feel intowhat it would feel like to have
that desire come to fruition.
But when we're talking aboutknowledge that we have in our
bodies, and then how do we?
I guess not.
How do we?
But the phrase that comes tomind is how often people will
(18:31):
say to one another oh, I knewbetter, right, and we think then
we want to get down onourselves because we knew better
but we didn't take the action.
And I would argue that thatbridge between what we know and
how we implement isn't fullydeveloped quite yet.
We're not taking the necessaryactions on the other side.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, and I think it gets developed by practicing,
implementing it.
There's no way to avoid that.
There's no way to avoid being ahuman in the practice of desire
.
There's no way to avoid justtrying stuff out and it not
working.
And this is really where welearn to be loving and kind with
(19:17):
ourselves and have compassionfor ourselves, because, I don't
know, a lot of us weren't bornthat way.
Well, let me say, we actuallyare born that way, but we learn
over time to beat ourselves up.
But it requires an enormousamount of compassion and
self-acceptance to messsomething up or not, do it quote
(19:38):
right or it didn't turn out theway you wished, or maybe you
hurt people along the way,whatever the thing is, and just
to say, oh my goodness, takeresponsibility for that.
And then move on and not getstuck in the barrel of shame and
guilt and regret, you know, andjust say, ok, I'm human, what
(20:04):
can I learn here and what do Iwant to do tomorrow?
And then do it.
And it might just also not beas simple as that.
Sometimes we do repeat the samemistake over and over again.
Why do we date people that arewrong for us?
Why did I eat dill potato chipslast night.
(20:24):
Dill pickle potato chips lastnight.
Why did I do that?
I already knew that that's notgreat for me at night.
I woke up this morning feelinglike shit from it, but clearly I
just needed to learn thatlesson again.
Is it the end of the world?
Am I going to beat myself up?
No, but I guess I needed areminder and we have to be
willing to be with that part ofourselves ourselves.
(20:54):
We're not here to have aperfect journey.
We're here to be a human andlearn lessons and maybe have
some fun along the way.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Thank you so much for the example of dill potato
chips.
I was like dill or even saltand vinegar chips sound
absolutely amazing to me rightnow.
But I digress.
I almost want to spit fire andtalk about the things that I
wanted to have that fall under.
I know it in my mind, but howwill it look when it's actually
(21:20):
implemented?
So self-love is definitely oneof them, right, like the idea of
oh, I want to love myself.
Yes, I want to be somebody thatwalks through the world and
exhibit self-love.
Oh, I want to have thestrongest boundaries ever.
Yes, I want to walk through theworld and have strong
boundaries.
Oh, yes, I want to be a greatcommunicator.
I want to walk through theworld without getting activated
(21:44):
and be completely unruly andjust say some really crazy
things on the other side.
These are the boundariescommunication, self-love.
What else comes to mind?
Confident, right, how to beconfident in things, how to not
self-sabotage I guess that's aword that you use.
What are other things that cometo mind that are part of the
(22:08):
personal growth and developmentjourney that we want to be able
to do in action?
But there is a time where it'sjust in the mind.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Totally.
How about not being judgmental?
That's a good one, acceptingpeople where they are being
loving to yourself and to others, right?
I think these are all thingsthat we want to do and sometimes
we do them and sometimes wedon't.
And I know a lot of people whoare like, well, I'm just
judgmental.
Even people on the other sideof like a quote spiritual person
(22:36):
they're like, well, I'm justjudgmental, I can't seem to
change that about myself and I'mjust going to love myself Now.
Are my actions outward going toreflect that?
No, but yeah, you might have togo through the journey of that
before you actually get to theplace where you can be loving,
but you have to accept yourselfwhere you are.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I think judging is hard, to not be judgmental
because we have opinions and Ithink the important part with
judgmental, the important partto remember if you're someone
that's wanting to not bejudgmental Judgmental the
important part to remember ifyou're someone that's wanting to
not be judgmental is to knowthat you are judging based on
your own opinion and thatopinion that you have is based
(23:15):
on perception and thatperception you have is based on
your own filter.
So it will differ with anotherhuman who has a different filter
, different perception anddifferent judgment.
I think being nonjudgmentaltaps into understanding.
This is just my opinion and Imay not be right.
(23:39):
I don't have a way of knowingif I'm right, whether it's in my
own life because I'm not Godand that's God's business and in
someone else's life I have ajudgment or an opinion, but it's
definitely not my business,that's their business and God's
(24:00):
business.
So we've given some greatexamples on many different
things that we want to practice.
We want to practice not beingjudgmental.
We want to practice beingloving and accepting.
We want to practice acceptinglife as is right, as Byron Katie
.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
So lovingly wrote a book Loving what Is.
(24:43):
We want to do those things, butit requires a lot of trial, a
lot, and we have our ownconditioning and beliefs.
And first of all you have tonotice that you even have those.
And then you have here's wheredesire comes in again.
It's like, oh, I really wannabe more loving and kind and
accepting of people.
Well, you have to be willing toeven.
Like you said, they're youropinions.
Well, you have to recognizethat.
(25:04):
So awareness is a really hugepiece that could take years to
just for that to drop in.
I did a lot of meditating at thebeginning of my personal
development journey, a lot ofmeditating to develop that other
, the observer inside of me.
To be able to see that.
That takes years.
And then, once you start doingthat, then you just start seeing
(25:27):
things pop around you.
It's like, oh, look at that.
Oh, look at that, look how I'mseeing things pop around you.
It's like, oh, look at that.
Oh, look at that, look how I'mjudgmental here.
Okay, then you just start seeingit, but you don't quite know
how to do it differently.
Yet All of these steps arepotentially years, you know.
And then, even when you know itall.
Then you still eat dill, pickle, potato chips at night and
(25:50):
you're like okay, well, no, I'mnot saying I know it all.
I certainly do not, but I'vepracticed all of these things
and I can mess it up on anyparticular day and it's where I
need to just say, okay, brenda,we're going to do it again
tomorrow and potentiallyapologize Very often it's to my
partner because we spend timetogether and I'm like oops,
sorry about that, you know,we'll just go from here.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Sorry about that, because you force him to eat
dill chips.
Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2 (26:18):
No, he wouldn't eat that.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I hear what you're saying.
There are various steps toembodiment and this is like the
work that you and I do, right,with our clients.
Like where are they right now?
Can we find acceptance forwhere they are?
Definitely, we do this in ourone-to-one coaching.
How can we like what's the nextstep for them?
(26:46):
Because it looks different forso many people.
As I'm listening to you and I'mlistening to the dill chip story
, I'm like, oh, you're just notover dill chips yet, right, like
you're not on the other side ofdill chips, that's it.
And then there comes a pointwhere you're on the other side
of dill chips.
I'm trying to think of whatthat would be for me right now
(27:08):
when something becomes embodied.
So I'll share something that wehaven't really touched on yet.
It's my relationship with money.
I've been working on myrelationship with money since
2015.
I've been in.
I've had to consolidate debt.
I've had to take out a personalloan for debt.
I've had to.
Yeah, my money journey has sortof been up down, up down.
I've had to take out a personalloan for debt.
(27:29):
I've had to.
Yeah, my money journey has sortof been up down, up down.
I've had times where I didn'thave any debt.
I lived debt-free for a reallylong time, so I've become
intimate with my way of spendingmoney, my way of saving money.
I'm intimate right now with mydesires for retirement and what
that looks like.
But there are certain thingsthat I do that I want to say are
(27:50):
pretty embodied now.
But I'm not on the other sidejust yet.
I'm like close, but not fully.
So.
One of the things that I do allthe time well, I want to say
all the time, but daily I lookat my balances daily and I input
my expenses like whatever Ispent on.
Input my expenses like whateverI spent on, down to like $2,
(28:14):
anything that's 0.01.
Like, if I spent a penny, I'mjotting it down.
But there's a version of mewhere I definitely did not want
to do this.
I was a strong believer of,like I really stood behind just
make more money, just make moremoney, just make more money.
And for those of you that arenot past the 50 marker, I say
this because Brenda and I arebut our energy levels changed
(28:36):
and we spoke about this partearlier like when the pain, the
discomfort starts to really,really change and I was like, oh
, my body doesn't want to doharder or more so with the
practice of money, you can onlycut expenses or make more, and I
think when you're in theearlier years, you can't fathom
(28:58):
what it's going to look or feellike when you can't do more,
because it's not part of thereality yet yet.
And then it comes into reality.
And so how do you dance withthat change of reality?
Oh, this is something I reallyhave to play with and be on top
of, because I want to see myselfas someone where I am not
(29:18):
jolting my nervous systembecause of something that I've
spent, that it's outside of myrealm to spend or outside of my
capacity to spend for all of theother goals that I have, all
the other priorities that I have, and so it's a really
interesting dance, even when westart changing our behaviors and
(29:39):
we're changing our behaviorsbecause we want to be this
different version of us and weknow what it's going to take.
And how do we become?
Oh, now I'm thinking ofsomething completely that we
haven't brought in yet to theconversation how do we become
unconsciously competent?
How do we become consciouslycompetent?
(30:01):
There are all these ways, right, there's.
Like you stated, we can't changesomething that's not in our
awareness If we're just saying,well, I'm just judgmental, this
is who I am, that's us not beingin any way, shape or form, open
to the possibility of what itwould look like to not be
judgmental.
(30:21):
And what will it take from us?
One of the biggest things thatnot being judgmental took from
me was to really look at all thetimes that I was wrong and
saying what if that's actually,more often than not, like I have
an opinion of something thathas nothing to do with me, it's
not my business, not my lane,and I want to interject?
(30:43):
And what if they are doing itexactly the way that they need
to do it for their particularlesson?
That I am not even privy to,because I don't know, because
it's not my business and mywisdom is not there?
Yes, I'm going to pause rightnow as I think about the
competence force.
I don't know what we call thatgrid.
(31:03):
It's not a grid.
I'm making a sign for Brendahere, a continuum.
It's like four squares, yeah,but the grid maybe.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, this is great.
You gave some really greatexamples of how you worked with
your money and how you took itfrom something you've wanted
into something that you'reactually living and you're
changing how you are with yourmoney so you could have
something different on the otherside as you move into
retirement, and that is reallybeautiful.
(31:37):
Yeah, the not my business part.
I mean, you hold some reallybig medicine there.
You're really good at that andwe've done a bunch of episodes
on that.
I'm just always amazed at howgreat you are about staying in
your own lane.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
For the stages.
It's called the four stages ofcompetence.
So you're unconsciouslyincompetent.
It means you are incompetent insomething and you have a zero
consciousness around the thingthat you are incompetent in,
like nope, I don't know what, Idon't know, like, I just don't
know what I don't know.
And then the next stack is youare consciously incompetent.
(32:12):
You're like I now know that I'mnot good at that thing.
Like I am incompetent at thatand I am consciously incompetent
.
I am very aware that I am notgood at that.
And then you start practicingconscious competence, like how
can I be more conscious aroundthis?
(32:33):
How can I be more consciousaround this thing that I want to
be, learn, do?
And then it becomes somethingthat you can do with your eyes
closed.
You're totally likeunconsciously competent.
The best example I have of thisis like driving a car.
It's something that you can doand to completely tune out and
(32:54):
just be doing it.
Or tying your shoelaces,brushing your teeth, making the
bed, you no longer have toconsciously think about oh, this
is how I tuck the corners in.
Oh, this is how I put thetoothpaste on.
Oh, this is how I tuck thecorners in.
Oh, this is how I put thetoothpaste on.
Oh, this is how I turn the caron right.
You're just going fromunconscious incompetence to
conscious incompetence,conscious competence and then
(33:18):
unconsciously competent.
I just wanted to make sure thatI shared that because I think,
ultimately, that's the thing.
I think ultimately that's thething when we're really embodied
.
It's completely unconsciouscompetence, like it's just
something you do.
It's who you are, hands down,and the great news around this
(33:45):
is today's easy was yesterday'shard, and today's hard is
tomorrow's easy, and tomorrow'shard hasn't even shown up yet.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And it's just how we grow.
It's absolutely beautiful.
That was gorgeous.
Thank you so much.
I feel inspired right there.
I think the quadrant that we'retalking about is learning to be
conscious, like understandingthat we're consciously
incompetent and we're willing topractice it.
That's really what we'retalking about in so much of our
conversations here.
(34:19):
Take some self-love and backingand commitment and caring for
ourselves and willingness tomess it up and come back again,
and a lot of confidence to justsay I'm learning to do this
(34:40):
thing, I'm learning to work withmy money, I don't really quite
know how to put my phone in theother room, I don't know how to
have the home that I want, andbeing willing to just stand tall
with your shoulders loud andproud, and up and say I'm
working on this, that'sbeautiful.
I think that's really beautifulleadership to be able to say
(35:03):
something like that.
Say something like that insteadof I have it all figured out
and then underneath it's a houseof cards that's just going to
fall apart.
I think we're willing to behonest with ourselves and say I
don't know how to do this, I'mworking on it.
It's divinely human and itgives permission for other
people to do the same, becausehow else do we learn?
(35:25):
There is no other way.
No child goes from sitting upat six months old to fully
walking.
No, they fall over.
Kids fall over for many, manytimes before they're a competent
walker.
And can we do that withourselves?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I love that example because the other thing that
comes to mind when I think aboutchildren walking which is one
of my favorite examples oflearning is that muscles are
being built in between right,like your baby has belly time,
has neck time.
It's like the baby has to gothrough all of these stages so
that it could be strong enoughto do the act of walking.
Likewise us when there'ssomething we want to implement,
(36:06):
whether it's better boundaries.
Likewise us when there'ssomething we want to implement,
whether it's better boundaries.
Oh, my goodness, I picked upthat phone call with this person
that's totally negative.
Or insert the thing that youdon't like at 9.30 at night,
like I really have to learn tonot do that Right and it's going
to require doing it over andover and over and over and over
(36:26):
again and being reminded whyit's not a good idea until you
start to change that.
But none of that is happening.
If you don't know that there'ssomething wrong with that call
at 9.30.
If you don't know how it feelsafter the call, if you don't
know that you didn't reallyenjoy the phone call, if you
don't know that you have theability to not answer the phone,
that it doesn't make you a badperson, that you're not going to
(36:47):
hell or purgatory for it.
We have to be conscious of thechoices.
We have to even implementsomething different.
Brenda's giving me a smile.
I feel like we have gone tomany places today on the map.
I really wanted to talk aboutwhat is embodiment and how do we
(37:08):
become the person that walksthrough the world with all the
knowledge that we have,especially in this day and age
where chat, gpt or books are alljust chat GPT.
Right, I said B, I think it's P, like Peter.
(37:28):
Chat GPT books, audio books,youtubes, reels, shorts are
giving us snippets of.
You just have to love yourselfmore.
You just need more power, youjust need more.
Insert the thing, boom, hook,close and then we're like but
(37:55):
what does that mean?
I know what I have to do, buthow do I do it?
And we're here today, brendaand I, to remind you that you do
it one practice, that you do it.
One practice, small step at atime.
One small step at a time,whether it's meditating on your
dream home, sharing witheverybody that you want the
(38:16):
dream home, deciding that you'renot going to take your phone
into your room, you're going tolive in another room so that
even if you want to touch it,it's not there or available for
you.
Or deciding I'm going to have abetter relationship with money
because I am not at a placewhere I can really work that
much harder.
Working two, three jobs as a50-year old is very different
(38:36):
than as a 20-year old.
How can I learn to live andlove to live within my means?
Oh, by seeing my bank balancesevery day.
This is going to help me withthat.
And, being honest, if you don'tknow what that looks like and
asking other people hey, whatdoes it look like for you to
have a good relationship withyour phone at night?
(38:57):
Hey, what does it look like ifyou wanted a new home?
What would you be doing orpracticing?
Oh, if you wanted a betterrelationship with money, where
would you start?
How would you do thingsdifferently?
Like turning to your communityfor ideas and if you want to be
led by Brenda or I, we are here.
We are open for business,always taking one-to-ones.
(39:17):
So if this is the kind of workthat you're looking to do, with
one of us as your guides, pleasereach out, click our links.
We would love to hear from youOn that.
Note rate share like thisepisode.
That's it for now.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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