July 2, 2025 • 31 mins
Have you ever asked for something that felt totally reasonable, only to be met with resistance, rejection or discomfort? It can feel disorienting, even painful.
In this episode, we explore how to ask for what you want in relationships without attachment, resentment, or collapse. Through stories of diamond earrings, perfume, and simple affection, we reveal the subtle difference between demanding and cleanly desiring.
When we love our desires, rather than clinging to outcomes, we create space for more connection, more possibility, and less pressure. We introduce the transformative practice of “asking every time like it’s the first time,”. We share how approval can shift everything about how we ask and how we receive.
This episode speaks to who you become through the asking for what you desire.
In this episode:
• The difference between demanding and clean asking
• Why emotional attachment sabotages desire
• Real-life examples: earrings, perfume, affection
• “Ask every time like it’s the first time”
• How to stay radiant and open when you hear “no”
• Releasing resentment and rewriting old patterns
• Being responsible for your desire (not outsourcing it)
• Knowing the difference between “not now” and “not ever”
• The freedom of loving your desire—no matter the outcome
May you love your desire, even when it’s not fulfilled.
May you hold yourself with grace when you meet resistance.
We’d love to hear your takeaway or leave us a review; your words mean the world to us.
How did you like this episode? Tell us everything, we'd love to hear from you.
If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back, hey, Brenda.
Listeners, family, friends, soexcited to meet with you today
to talk about desire, Of course,desire as medicine.
(01:36):
I want to talk about thisspecific little corner around
asking for what you want,leaning towards what you want.
You have a desire, you want togo for it and you're in a
relationship, whether it'sromantic or otherwise, and you
ask the person and they respondlike shit, Brenda.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Oh my god, that's so funny.
That is not what I thought youwere going to say.
Oh my God, that's so funny.
That is not what I thought youwere going to say, but that's
true, that happens right.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yes, you ask your boyfriend for something your
husband and he's looking at youlike you have two heads and you
just asked him to be Einsteinfor a day.
Like you ask him for a hug andhe's looking at you like you
just asked for gold bars.
Or you asked him to wash thedishes, and he's like why you
(02:32):
want me to walk on Mars?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Like it's so true, oh my God.
Okay, the last episode werecorded I was talking about
getting divorced, so I'm justgoing to dive into this.
One little example from wayback when I was married, when I
turned 40, I wanted diamondearrings.
I'd never even wanted anythinglike that before, I just didn't
care.
But I was like I got in my mindthat I wanted diamond earrings
(02:58):
and I shared it with my husbandat the time and he freaked
husband at the time and hefreaked.
He was like you want what?
He did not respond well, butyou know, looking back he was
scared.
I think he was scared.
He was like oh, what is thishuge desire?
Can I give it to her?
Because I really do believe I'mjust going to say men and women
(03:21):
.
I really believe that men wantto give women their desires.
They really do.
Men want to be in service to us.
They want to give us what wewant, which is why it's so
important for us to be clear onwhat we want.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Well, do they want to give us what we want, or do
they want to win Is?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
that the same thing?
Yes, but.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
I think that sometimes men give us what they
want, what we want, and theydon't win say more.
Sometimes we are not goodpeople to give to.
No, sometimes we ask for thediamond earrings and we're like,
oh, thank you.
Yeah, completely not receptive,like we also want to be joyous
(04:08):
and ask for what we want.
That's a true thing that wewant so that when we get it, the
men women in our lives can feelthe joy that we have in
receiving it, because we reallywanted it absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I think that they want that.
Yes, and it really is on usthere's a lot on us over there a
lot of responsibility to saywhat we want, right, give the
adjustments, to be clear on whatwe want, and then to receive it
, to fully receive it.
And let's be honest, if it'sexactly what you want, it's the
(04:46):
exact diamond earrings you want,woohoo, that is easy to receive
, right, maybe.
But what if it's not?
What if it's not the diamondearrings that you wanted?
What if there's something else?
Then what do you do?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Or it's diamond earrings and you don't like them
Exactly, then what?
Yes, how do you graciouslyreceive and adjust Exactly?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I think it's really important to receive the gift
you know, to receive the, the,the gesture that somebody gave
you this thing, whatever it is.
Somebody gave you this thing,whatever it is, and then you can
be honest and maybe say I lovethat you got this for me, honey.
(05:32):
And can we pick out?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
something a little different.
I'm thinking of a boyfriend Ihad who bought me like cupcakes
for my birthday, like fourdifferent kinds and flavors, and
the gesture was sweet.
I had not asked for cupcakes,it wasn't a desire, I didn't
really ask for anything, whichprobably had him flailing and
(05:58):
trying to figure it out.
And it felt so generic to me,like, oh, he must have done this
like a million times for otherwomen because it felt like a
go-to kind of thing, likesomething he just does, and I
could not receive it at the time, like, it was so hard.
It was a different time in mylife.
(06:18):
But I think now, if I wereunder those same circumstances,
I think I'd be like you knowwhat, who the hell doesn't like
cupcakes?
Like, thank you, like.
But I was so stuck in my head,my ego of, oh, you know what is
this really?
Is this really a big thing?
Come on, stop it.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
That's so funny.
I would love to receive a boxof cupcakes.
That sounds really really good.
Well, here's one.
So I was dating this guy in SanFrancisco when I lived there
many years ago and I was goingthere to visit him and he asked
(07:03):
me what I would like to eat ordrink and I told him I would
love a bottle of Pellegrino,that I loved that, and so he got
me the Pellegrino.
And then I went back again thenext time and he said look, look
in the fridge.
I was like, okay, I looked inthe fridge.
I kid you not, the entirefridge was filled with
(07:24):
Pellegrinos, the entire fridge.
God bless him.
But it's such a beautifulexample of how much men want to
please us.
He knew I loved Pellegrino andhe was like I'm going to please
this woman, I'm going to giveher Pellegrinos forever and how
(07:46):
our egos can make stories aboutit Like is it too many
Pellegrinos?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Is it just right Pellegrinos?
It's like we can get so wrappedup in the logistics of
something that we just can'treceive.
But I don't want to go too farout, because we started to give
examples of things that we'vegotten that are funny, which is
great.
But I want us to go back towhen somebody, when we're asking
for something and the personreceives our ask like shit, like
(08:12):
we've asked them to dosomething, that is like a
contortionist and it can be hardto receive.
It's almost like the personsaid no, hard to receive.
It's almost like the personsaid no.
I mean, they might as well havesaid no, because I used to have
(08:32):
a boyfriend that used to say Iknow I get upset and I know I'm
uncomfortable, but eventually Ido it and I'm like yeah, but
first I have to see you receiveit.
Like shit, like it doesn't feelgood.
That was sort of like asticking point for me.
I didn't, I didn't think thatwhat I was asking for was a big
deal and then so by the time hewould come around to be able to
do the thing like I already did,it is done and it happened, um,
(08:55):
but the thing that I've learnedsince then is, if I really want
my boyfriend or a girlfriend todo something, how can I stay
with it and keep the ask aliveas if it's the first time, or be
honest with myself of what theask is?
(09:16):
To stay with it, like I have agirlfriend and she listens to
this podcast.
So this is, if this is you Isay this lovingly and it was.
We don't spend time togetherthat often and I wanted to go
and see a show with her and wehad.
We've honestly been trying toand we've honestly been trying
(09:38):
to create a time to meet maybethree years, easy, she, you know
we would have.
Maybe we're going to go seeAlicia Keys one time or we're
going to go see this thing onBroadway.
It's my birthday, her birthday,my birthday.
It was just sort of like a backand forth tennis thing and we
finally got to go somewhere thisyear and it felt so beautiful.
(10:02):
I was so excited to spend thistime with her, but I could have
easily just given up.
How do you suggest it, brenda?
How do you stay in the room andcontinue to ask as if it's the
first time, whether inrelationship any relationship
when people are like either yes,we're going to go, this is
(10:24):
amazing, and they never areavailable, the days don't work,
the this, the that, it's likejust a non starter.
Or you ask someone forsomething and they think that
they have to do cartwheels andthey're like I don't want to do
that, that feels like shit.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Okay, now it's getting juicy in here.
What you're talking about ishow do you hold your desire?
How do you hold your own desirein the face of it, maybe not
coming to you right away, right.
If you want something and youget it right away, well, great,
(11:01):
that's wonderful.
But not every desire is likethat.
Sometimes we have biggerdesires that may take a while to
happen and they might not evenever happen.
And then there's desires thatyou just have to wait for other
people.
If you're asking somebody elsefor something, well, they might
have feelings about it.
And do you collapse there andsay, okay, forget it, I don't
(11:24):
want this thing, yeah.
Or do you hold your desire?
And here's the thing, this isthe piece You've got to love the
desire itself.
You love the desire, you lovethe desire.
So I wanted to not only havethe diamond earrings, but love
my desire for the diamondearrings.
(11:46):
And if I fall in love with myown desire and I just love the
fact that I want this and Icould have that in my body and
just be an approval that I wantthis thing, that may or may not
manifest, that's freedom,because then I'm loving the
(12:09):
desire, I'm in enjoyment andpleasure of my own desire, which
is completely unattached to themanifestation of it completely
unattached to the manifestationof it.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Okay, for myself and everybody else, that's in the
back.
What is the opposite of lovingyour desire?
Because I love how you said it?
I just want to love my desire,love the earrings, and if I love
the earrings, she's cracking up.
If I love the earrings, then Ijust love loving the earrings
and I'm just in the love of theearrings.
She's cracking up.
If I love the earrings, then Ijust love loving the earrings
and I'm just in the love of theearrings.
Okay, now come back.
(12:45):
Come back and talk to me.
Feed my Capricorn.
I'm like I have so manyquestions.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Oh, my God, I'm cracking up right now.
Okay, I did, I did ham that upa little bit, but it's also
really true, and this is foreign, because we're not used to
loving the desire itself.
We're used to loving the thingthat we want and the
manifestation, and we have tohave it.
So what does that look like?
(13:14):
Well, years ago, differentboyfriend years ago, different
boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Well, hang on, hang on, let's stay on the earrings
so that I can know.
Okay, so the new way would bejust loving the earrings and
just loving that I have thedesire for the earrings.
That's the new way.
What was the old way like?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
The old way is I want this thing.
I wasn't in the loving of thedesire at that point.
Here's the thing At that point,when I was turning 40, and I
was on the verge of wanting adivorce, like something was
happening inside of me here andI didn't know what the heck was
happening.
I said to myself if he doesn'tbuy me these diamond earrings,
(13:57):
I'm fucking out of here.
If he doesn't buy me thesediamond earrings, I'm fucking
out of here.
I was like I'm going to leavethis 20 year marriage If this
man does not buy me theseearrings.
Okay, is that rational?
No, but it was a real feeling.
But it's a real thing.
Yeah, it was.
It was very black and white.
It was like very clear in here.
(14:18):
It was like if he doesn't buyme these earrings, I'm done.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I think that's what's not being said when we talk
about loving the earrings orloving the desire for the
earrings.
That it's like I love theoutcome of the earrings and if I
don't have the outcome of theearrings, well, there's a
consequence.
Exactly, you, my friend, willpay.
And if I don't have the outcomeof the earrings, well, there's
a consequence.
Exactly, you, my friend, willpay.
(14:44):
Whoever the friend is whetherit's a friend, romantic partner
you're going to pay for notgiving me the thing that I want,
and I think that's normal.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I think that's what women do.
I think that's mostly whatwomen do.
If you don't give me what Iwant, you're going to pay and we
withdraw our love, we withdrawour sex, we withdraw our
attention, whatever it is, if wedon't get what we want.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
If we were to slow down, because originally we were
talking about how we're askingfor something that we want and
it feels really crappy when theydon't give it to us, right,
like if we were just to bring it.
It makes sense, like we wantthese MFs to pay because they
didn't give us what we wanted,and it's like you will now do a
(15:28):
little bit of prison time andthe prison.
Maybe you don't have sex or I'mnot talking to you.
You're going through the silenttreatment or whatever else.
Whatever else I'm going to putyou through, because I had to
live through the discomfort ofnot getting what I wanted and
there is a consequence there ishell to pay.
I mean that is one way Go ahead.
(15:52):
No, no, we could keep hashingthis out.
I think, ultimately, what Iwant this episode to point to is
that it's hard to not get whatwe want it is.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, it is hard and we're upset.
Yes, it's disappointing, forwhatever reason and whatever you
make it mean.
Yes, right, what did I make itmean if my husband at the time
didn't buy me these earrings?
Well, so much that earrings,clearly, clearly.
(16:28):
But and that's how it felt atthe time, and I do want to give
a contrasting example because Ithink it's important so, years
later and I had to learn thisbecause back then it was like if
you don't get me this thing,I'm out of here, which is
literally ridiculous for a 20year marriage right, but it was.
There were other, deeper thingsobviously going on.
So, years later, when I was on apath of following desire,
(16:50):
following pleasure, living lifemore authentically, I had a
boyfriend at the time and I senthim a desire list and one of
the things that I really wantedwas this perfume.
I really wanted this oneparticular perfume.
I loved it and he said I wantto get you this perfume.
I was like, oh my God, this isso great.
(17:11):
He couldn't find it anywhere.
And I said, oh, you have toorder it online.
You can only get it online.
So he would research it andresearch it.
Now, meanwhile, he reallywanted to get me this perfume.
But I didn't get involved inthe how he was going to get it
or the if, because I knew thatyou had to order it online and I
(17:34):
knew it was hard to find.
But he loved to research stuff,so he just did it on his own.
But I didn't get involved inany of that.
And he would come back and hewould say I found it online, wow
, that was really expensive.
And I didn't collapse there, Iwas like yeah, it is, it's kind
of pricey.
And I just stayed radiant,stayed magnetic, did not get
(17:55):
disappointed in his frustrationof trying to find this thing,
because he really wanted toplease me.
It took a long time.
He would come back every fewweeks and just give me a report
on the find it, him trying tolocate this perfume.
And then a fast forward acouple of months it was my
(18:17):
birthday and he handed me a boxand I knew exactly what it was.
I knew it was that perfume andit was, and I was so happy to
receive it and he was so happyto give it to me.
But in that whole time, thefrustration of how do I get it
and how much money is it anddoes he want to do it and is he
going to do it?
None of that was any of mybusiness, but none of that was
(18:38):
any of my business.
My only job was to love mydesire and approve of my desire
and enjoy the desire itself.
Oh, brenda really wants andwould love this beautiful
perfume.
I love that.
(18:59):
I want this perfume, and Ididn't make it mean anything, if
anything, I was just turned onby the fact that he wanted to
get it for me and wasresearching how to do it.
So if you look at those twoexamples, they're really quite
different and I had to learnthat.
I had to learn not to getattached to the thing that I
(19:19):
wanted and to ask for it cleanlyand lovingly and stay radiant
and magnetic and also not makehim pay if he didn't give it to
me.
He felt my approval and love.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Such a great example.
That's really the part.
If we were to look at it fromthe area or the drone view of
steps.
It's like first step, we haveto get clear of what we want.
I love that you sent him adesire list and, for anyone
that's listening, we actuallyhave a toolbox on how you can
(19:55):
write a desire list.
You have to feel into yourdesire, feel into what would
make please you what you want,ask for it and you may get a
response that rubs on you insome way and that's our work.
(20:15):
I know, I know, I know You'reprobably like damn it, Catherine
.
I want it to be his work.
I want him to hear my desireand just want to give it to me.
It's possible.
But one of the things thatBrenda didn't mention in her two
examples, as we talked aboutearrings and perfume, she does
(20:37):
kind of lean and say, oh, thatwas years of work, but it's how
to get clean, and clean justbasically means there's no
residue.
So she's not going to murderhim if he doesn't buy the
perfume or if he just doesn'tget it.
She doesn't withhold love orattention or make him wrong
(20:59):
because she didn't get what shewanted, because the truth is
that if we have, we're inpartnership in any sort of
relationship.
This could be romantic orotherwise.
We're always in relationship.
It's continuous, it's alwayshappening.
So we're not going to ask justfor one thing.
We're probably going to ask formany things.
And how do we stay consciouswhen it's not well-received and
(21:26):
how do we feel into?
Ooh, that hurt, what was thatthat it touched?
And how do I clean it on myside so that the next time I ask
there's no residue?
And I know, I know I knowyou're probably going to say I
said it in the sweetest.
And I know, I know I knowyou're probably gonna say I said
it in the sweetest way and withthe sweetest voice and I was
wearing the most gorgeous dress,but there's an energetic that
(21:47):
men feel.
That is undeniable and sothere's that.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
That's gorgeous.
So two things that I want toadd to that.
First of all, I love that yousaid clean.
That's very important.
That was a really importantpiece that was not in the
diamond example.
I was like, if you don't getthis for me, I'm done.
And the other one I just had somuch love and approval for him,
even wanting to get the perfume, regardless of whether I had it
(22:12):
or not.
Two things I want to say.
One it takes an enormous amountof responsibility to hold your
desire.
It's on us to do it.
It's our desire.
It's easy to pass the hotpotato to somebody else, but
(22:34):
even if your partner or somebodyelse wants to give you your
desire, it's still your desire.
You're responsible for holdingit.
That's why we have to love ourdesires and we have to be right
with our desires.
We have to be right withwanting things, we have to be
right with wanting more.
And if we're in approval of that, if we're in approval of I am a
(23:00):
woman who has desires andyou're willing to hold the
weight of that, that's a verydifferent path.
And look than collapsingbecause your man is like, oh boy
, that's expensive, right?
Give him a chance to get it foryou.
Give anyone a chance, whetherit's someone in your family or
(23:23):
your partner, your kids,whatever.
Give the person a chance towork it through and get this
thing for you.
And that takes you to hold it,because if you say, okay,
nevermind, I don't want thatthing, you're just going to be
resentful.
So that's one thing that I wantto say is, holding the weight
(23:44):
of responsibility is yours.
And the other thing this is thething with men that I've
realized you have to ask them alot of times for things.
You can't just say I want thisthing and then think they're
going to hear you and get it.
Well, maybe that's the casesometimes, but for the bigger
things or the things that mighthave a little bit of a rub, you
(24:07):
might have to ask many times.
You might have to share yourdesire many times for a
particular thing.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I'm going to give you an example.
What if you were going to askthis?
Might be hard to do, but let'stry.
I had somebody talk to me aboutthis client the other day.
You go to ask your boyfriendfor like can you hold me?
And he's like, oh, what's wrong?
And my response I'm curious tohear what comes up for you
Instead of for me.
If that were me, I wouldn't beso activated that he's like
(24:36):
what's wrong?
I would be thinking to myselfwhat has happened where I've
trained him that something iswrong if I ask for this?
And how do I change that sothat nothing has to be wrong?
It's just something I want,right.
Like I just.
(24:57):
I could respond and say I justlove it when you hug me, I love
being in your arms, I just lovebeing in your embrace, nothing's
wrong.
Or if something is wrong, mesaying, actually everything
that's wrong can be fixed, justwith you, your hug, if that's
(25:21):
really what I'm looking for,right.
But if I take it to mean, oh,you don't want to hold me and I
ask for you to hold me, thatmeans you don't love me, or that
means you don't want to hug me,or that means that you're not
available to.
Or if I give it any sort ofcharge.
How hard is it for me to justlove that I want to hug, like
wow, I'm a human being that hasneeds.
(25:41):
I'm using Brenda's speech now,loving that I want to hug.
If I were to use my terminology, I would just say how can I be
in approval of what I'm lookingfor?
And that it's completely humanand normal to ask.
It's a completely normal ask.
There's nothing out of theordinary in my ask and this
(26:01):
person can say no, that's avalid answer.
And if they say no, I get tosay is that not right now or no
forever?
Like I get to be incommunication and understanding
of what's unfolding with the hug.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
That's a really gorgeous example.
I love the fact that youbrought up is this a no forever,
or is this a no right now?
Like, do you never want to hugme again?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yes, I'm like.
Well, what are we talking abouthere?
Is there any kind ofnegotiation Like what are we
talking about?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I think it's a great question, like oh, when can you
do it?
Maybe later, maybe the person'sjust not available right now.
I think that's a reallyimportant distinction, because
somebody might not be availableright now for something, but
maybe in an hour they are, andthen inevitably, if they're not
available for it, well, how doyou take care of yourself right
(27:00):
there?
And the other thing that I wantto bring up as far as this
topic is asking every time likeit's the first time, oh my God,
it's such a big one and it'shard, it's so hard.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
It takes so much practice.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I've been practicing this one for years, like over a
decade.
People Asking every time, likeit's the first time, almost like
asking somebody if they wouldlike a cup of tea.
Would you like a cup of tea?
Would you like a cup of tea?
You wouldn't get resentful overa cup of tea, right?
Speaker 1 (27:37):
You're like do you want tea now?
Yo bitch, do you want some tea?
Come on now.
You know you want tea.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Don't tell me you don't want the tea, but we don't
do that with a cup of tea,right, but it's a great example
and it's a good place topractice just asking every
single time like it's the firsttime.
And that is a great one to workwith, with your partner and
with children.
Asking every time like it's thefirst time, because people
don't hear it the first time.
(28:04):
They might not hear it.
You might say, I said it asplain as day, I was so clear,
but they don't always hear it.
And so if you think somebodydoesn't hear your desire, do you
crumble and do you drop yourdesire?
Or are you willing to hold theweight of it and be an approval
(28:28):
of oh, you have this desire andjust ask again.
You can ask again later.
Will you hold me?
Or maybe tomorrow is adifferent day.
We are literally differentpeople every day.
So what's not available todayis available tomorrow.
But I think it's very easy toget our feelings hurt, find our
desire wrong and then cutourselves off, and then we don't
(28:52):
get what we want and then weend up resentful at our partner.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
It's not a good look.
It really isn't.
Resentful is horrendous.
To be resentful towards ourpartners or friends because they
didn't give us what we wantedor we didn't get what we wanted
in the way that we wanted it.
It all is not cool I get, andthe only way to not be there, I
(29:20):
mean it's bad enough that maybesomebody doesn't want to give it
to us.
Like that part in itself it'soutside of our control.
But we get to be with and putattention on Ooh, why was that
such a big ouch?
Oh, what part of my needs orconditioning did that hit?
Oh, what did I have?
That mean when I didn't get itfrom someone?
(29:41):
And how can I practice askingfor it as if it's the first time
?
How can I remove the chargehere?
Like, where where's my workhere?
What is the most up that Icould put my attention on?
Truly, it's big work.
(30:02):
Brenda, thank you so much fordiving in and giving such juicy
examples.
Thank you, listeners forlistening.
We really hope that thisepisode touched something in you
and really want to encourageyou to ask us if it's the first
time.
I really want to encourage you,we really want to encourage you
to not have or make not gettingsomething mean something and,
(30:27):
of course, if it's continuous,then you reevaluate in whatever
way you see fit.
But please practice, becausethis is going to be a lifelong
lesson, always asking as if it'sthe first time and not taking
their reaction to mean somethingabout us, about you.
(30:48):
Know your worth, now and always.
That's it for today.
Bye, for now.
Thank you for joining us on theDesire is Medicine podcast
Desire invites us to be honest,loving and deeply intimate with
(31:09):
ourselves and others.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back, hey, Brenda.
Listeners, family, friends, soexcited to meet with you today
to talk about desire, Of course,desire as medicine.
(01:36):
I want to talk about thisspecific little corner around
asking for what you want,leaning towards what you want.
You have a desire, you want togo for it and you're in a
relationship, whether it'sromantic or otherwise, and you
ask the person and they respondlike shit, Brenda.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Oh my god, that's so funny.
That is not what I thought youwere going to say.
Oh my God, that's so funny.
That is not what I thought youwere going to say, but that's
true, that happens right.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yes, you ask your boyfriend for something your
husband and he's looking at youlike you have two heads and you
just asked him to be Einsteinfor a day.
Like you ask him for a hug andhe's looking at you like you
just asked for gold bars.
Or you asked him to wash thedishes, and he's like why you
(02:32):
want me to walk on Mars?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Like it's so true, oh my God.
Okay, the last episode werecorded I was talking about
getting divorced, so I'm justgoing to dive into this.
One little example from wayback when I was married, when I
turned 40, I wanted diamondearrings.
I'd never even wanted anythinglike that before, I just didn't
care.
But I was like I got in my mindthat I wanted diamond earrings
(02:58):
and I shared it with my husbandat the time and he freaked
husband at the time and hefreaked.
He was like you want what?
He did not respond well, butyou know, looking back he was
scared.
I think he was scared.
He was like oh, what is thishuge desire?
Can I give it to her?
Because I really do believe I'mjust going to say men and women
(03:21):
.
I really believe that men wantto give women their desires.
They really do.
Men want to be in service to us.
They want to give us what wewant, which is why it's so
important for us to be clear onwhat we want.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Well, do they want to give us what we want, or do
they want to win Is?
Speaker 2 (03:39):
that the same thing?
Yes, but.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
I think that sometimes men give us what they
want, what we want, and theydon't win say more.
Sometimes we are not goodpeople to give to.
No, sometimes we ask for thediamond earrings and we're like,
oh, thank you.
Yeah, completely not receptive,like we also want to be joyous
(04:08):
and ask for what we want.
That's a true thing that wewant so that when we get it, the
men women in our lives can feelthe joy that we have in
receiving it, because we reallywanted it absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I think that they want that.
Yes, and it really is on usthere's a lot on us over there a
lot of responsibility to saywhat we want, right, give the
adjustments, to be clear on whatwe want, and then to receive it
, to fully receive it.
And let's be honest, if it'sexactly what you want, it's the
(04:46):
exact diamond earrings you want,woohoo, that is easy to receive
, right, maybe.
But what if it's not?
What if it's not the diamondearrings that you wanted?
What if there's something else?
Then what do you do?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Or it's diamond earrings and you don't like them
Exactly, then what?
Yes, how do you graciouslyreceive and adjust Exactly?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I think it's really important to receive the gift
you know, to receive the, the,the gesture that somebody gave
you this thing, whatever it is.
Somebody gave you this thing,whatever it is, and then you can
be honest and maybe say I lovethat you got this for me, honey.
(05:32):
And can we pick out?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
something a little different.
I'm thinking of a boyfriend Ihad who bought me like cupcakes
for my birthday, like fourdifferent kinds and flavors, and
the gesture was sweet.
I had not asked for cupcakes,it wasn't a desire, I didn't
really ask for anything, whichprobably had him flailing and
(05:58):
trying to figure it out.
And it felt so generic to me,like, oh, he must have done this
like a million times for otherwomen because it felt like a
go-to kind of thing, likesomething he just does, and I
could not receive it at the time, like, it was so hard.
It was a different time in mylife.
(06:18):
But I think now, if I wereunder those same circumstances,
I think I'd be like you knowwhat, who the hell doesn't like
cupcakes?
Like, thank you, like.
But I was so stuck in my head,my ego of, oh, you know what is
this really?
Is this really a big thing?
Come on, stop it.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
That's so funny.
I would love to receive a boxof cupcakes.
That sounds really really good.
Well, here's one.
So I was dating this guy in SanFrancisco when I lived there
many years ago and I was goingthere to visit him and he asked
(07:03):
me what I would like to eat ordrink and I told him I would
love a bottle of Pellegrino,that I loved that, and so he got
me the Pellegrino.
And then I went back again thenext time and he said look, look
in the fridge.
I was like, okay, I looked inthe fridge.
I kid you not, the entirefridge was filled with
(07:24):
Pellegrinos, the entire fridge.
God bless him.
But it's such a beautifulexample of how much men want to
please us.
He knew I loved Pellegrino andhe was like I'm going to please
this woman, I'm going to giveher Pellegrinos forever and how
(07:46):
our egos can make stories aboutit Like is it too many
Pellegrinos?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Is it just right Pellegrinos?
It's like we can get so wrappedup in the logistics of
something that we just can'treceive.
But I don't want to go too farout, because we started to give
examples of things that we'vegotten that are funny, which is
great.
But I want us to go back towhen somebody, when we're asking
for something and the personreceives our ask like shit, like
(08:12):
we've asked them to dosomething, that is like a
contortionist and it can be hardto receive.
It's almost like the personsaid no, hard to receive.
It's almost like the personsaid no.
I mean, they might as well havesaid no, because I used to have
(08:32):
a boyfriend that used to say Iknow I get upset and I know I'm
uncomfortable, but eventually Ido it and I'm like yeah, but
first I have to see you receiveit.
Like shit, like it doesn't feelgood.
That was sort of like asticking point for me.
I didn't, I didn't think thatwhat I was asking for was a big
deal and then so by the time hewould come around to be able to
do the thing like I already did,it is done and it happened, um,
(08:55):
but the thing that I've learnedsince then is, if I really want
my boyfriend or a girlfriend todo something, how can I stay
with it and keep the ask aliveas if it's the first time, or be
honest with myself of what theask is?
(09:16):
To stay with it, like I have agirlfriend and she listens to
this podcast.
So this is, if this is you Isay this lovingly and it was.
We don't spend time togetherthat often and I wanted to go
and see a show with her and wehad.
We've honestly been trying toand we've honestly been trying
(09:38):
to create a time to meet maybethree years, easy, she, you know
we would have.
Maybe we're going to go seeAlicia Keys one time or we're
going to go see this thing onBroadway.
It's my birthday, her birthday,my birthday.
It was just sort of like a backand forth tennis thing and we
finally got to go somewhere thisyear and it felt so beautiful.
(10:02):
I was so excited to spend thistime with her, but I could have
easily just given up.
How do you suggest it, brenda?
How do you stay in the room andcontinue to ask as if it's the
first time, whether inrelationship any relationship
when people are like either yes,we're going to go, this is
(10:24):
amazing, and they never areavailable, the days don't work,
the this, the that, it's likejust a non starter.
Or you ask someone forsomething and they think that
they have to do cartwheels andthey're like I don't want to do
that, that feels like shit.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Okay, now it's getting juicy in here.
What you're talking about ishow do you hold your desire?
How do you hold your own desirein the face of it, maybe not
coming to you right away, right.
If you want something and youget it right away, well, great,
(11:01):
that's wonderful.
But not every desire is likethat.
Sometimes we have biggerdesires that may take a while to
happen and they might not evenever happen.
And then there's desires thatyou just have to wait for other
people.
If you're asking somebody elsefor something, well, they might
have feelings about it.
And do you collapse there andsay, okay, forget it, I don't
(11:24):
want this thing, yeah.
Or do you hold your desire?
And here's the thing, this isthe piece You've got to love the
desire itself.
You love the desire, you lovethe desire.
So I wanted to not only havethe diamond earrings, but love
my desire for the diamondearrings.
(11:46):
And if I fall in love with myown desire and I just love the
fact that I want this and Icould have that in my body and
just be an approval that I wantthis thing, that may or may not
manifest, that's freedom,because then I'm loving the
(12:09):
desire, I'm in enjoyment andpleasure of my own desire, which
is completely unattached to themanifestation of it completely
unattached to the manifestationof it.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Okay, for myself and everybody else, that's in the
back.
What is the opposite of lovingyour desire?
Because I love how you said it?
I just want to love my desire,love the earrings, and if I love
the earrings, she's cracking up.
If I love the earrings, then Ijust love loving the earrings
and I'm just in the love of theearrings.
She's cracking up.
If I love the earrings, then Ijust love loving the earrings
and I'm just in the love of theearrings.
Okay, now come back.
(12:45):
Come back and talk to me.
Feed my Capricorn.
I'm like I have so manyquestions.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Oh, my God, I'm cracking up right now.
Okay, I did, I did ham that upa little bit, but it's also
really true, and this is foreign, because we're not used to
loving the desire itself.
We're used to loving the thingthat we want and the
manifestation, and we have tohave it.
So what does that look like?
(13:14):
Well, years ago, differentboyfriend years ago, different
boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Well, hang on, hang on, let's stay on the earrings
so that I can know.
Okay, so the new way would bejust loving the earrings and
just loving that I have thedesire for the earrings.
That's the new way.
What was the old way like?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
The old way is I want this thing.
I wasn't in the loving of thedesire at that point.
Here's the thing At that point,when I was turning 40, and I
was on the verge of wanting adivorce, like something was
happening inside of me here andI didn't know what the heck was
happening.
I said to myself if he doesn'tbuy me these diamond earrings,
(13:57):
I'm fucking out of here.
If he doesn't buy me thesediamond earrings, I'm fucking
out of here.
I was like I'm going to leavethis 20 year marriage If this
man does not buy me theseearrings.
Okay, is that rational?
No, but it was a real feeling.
But it's a real thing.
Yeah, it was.
It was very black and white.
It was like very clear in here.
(14:18):
It was like if he doesn't buyme these earrings, I'm done.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I think that's what's not being said when we talk
about loving the earrings orloving the desire for the
earrings.
That it's like I love theoutcome of the earrings and if I
don't have the outcome of theearrings, well, there's a
consequence.
Exactly, you, my friend, willpay.
And if I don't have the outcomeof the earrings, well, there's
a consequence.
Exactly, you, my friend, willpay.
(14:44):
Whoever the friend is whetherit's a friend, romantic partner
you're going to pay for notgiving me the thing that I want,
and I think that's normal.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I think that's what women do.
I think that's mostly whatwomen do.
If you don't give me what Iwant, you're going to pay and we
withdraw our love, we withdrawour sex, we withdraw our
attention, whatever it is, if wedon't get what we want.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
If we were to slow down, because originally we were
talking about how we're askingfor something that we want and
it feels really crappy when theydon't give it to us, right,
like if we were just to bring it.
It makes sense, like we wantthese MFs to pay because they
didn't give us what we wanted,and it's like you will now do a
(15:28):
little bit of prison time andthe prison.
Maybe you don't have sex or I'mnot talking to you.
You're going through the silenttreatment or whatever else.
Whatever else I'm going to putyou through, because I had to
live through the discomfort ofnot getting what I wanted and
there is a consequence there ishell to pay.
I mean that is one way Go ahead.
(15:52):
No, no, we could keep hashingthis out.
I think, ultimately, what Iwant this episode to point to is
that it's hard to not get whatwe want it is.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, it is hard and we're upset.
Yes, it's disappointing, forwhatever reason and whatever you
make it mean.
Yes, right, what did I make itmean if my husband at the time
didn't buy me these earrings?
Well, so much that earrings,clearly, clearly.
(16:28):
But and that's how it felt atthe time, and I do want to give
a contrasting example because Ithink it's important so, years
later and I had to learn thisbecause back then it was like if
you don't get me this thing,I'm out of here, which is
literally ridiculous for a 20year marriage right, but it was.
There were other, deeper thingsobviously going on.
So, years later, when I was on apath of following desire,
(16:50):
following pleasure, living lifemore authentically, I had a
boyfriend at the time and I senthim a desire list and one of
the things that I really wantedwas this perfume.
I really wanted this oneparticular perfume.
I loved it and he said I wantto get you this perfume.
I was like, oh my God, this isso great.
(17:11):
He couldn't find it anywhere.
And I said, oh, you have toorder it online.
You can only get it online.
So he would research it andresearch it.
Now, meanwhile, he reallywanted to get me this perfume.
But I didn't get involved inthe how he was going to get it
or the if, because I knew thatyou had to order it online and I
(17:34):
knew it was hard to find.
But he loved to research stuff,so he just did it on his own.
But I didn't get involved inany of that.
And he would come back and hewould say I found it online, wow
, that was really expensive.
And I didn't collapse there, Iwas like yeah, it is, it's kind
of pricey.
And I just stayed radiant,stayed magnetic, did not get
(17:55):
disappointed in his frustrationof trying to find this thing,
because he really wanted toplease me.
It took a long time.
He would come back every fewweeks and just give me a report
on the find it, him trying tolocate this perfume.
And then a fast forward acouple of months it was my
(18:17):
birthday and he handed me a boxand I knew exactly what it was.
I knew it was that perfume andit was, and I was so happy to
receive it and he was so happyto give it to me.
But in that whole time, thefrustration of how do I get it
and how much money is it anddoes he want to do it and is he
going to do it?
None of that was any of mybusiness, but none of that was
(18:38):
any of my business.
My only job was to love mydesire and approve of my desire
and enjoy the desire itself.
Oh, brenda really wants andwould love this beautiful
perfume.
I love that.
(18:59):
I want this perfume, and Ididn't make it mean anything, if
anything, I was just turned onby the fact that he wanted to
get it for me and wasresearching how to do it.
So if you look at those twoexamples, they're really quite
different and I had to learnthat.
I had to learn not to getattached to the thing that I
(19:19):
wanted and to ask for it cleanlyand lovingly and stay radiant
and magnetic and also not makehim pay if he didn't give it to
me.
He felt my approval and love.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Such a great example.
That's really the part.
If we were to look at it fromthe area or the drone view of
steps.
It's like first step, we haveto get clear of what we want.
I love that you sent him adesire list and, for anyone
that's listening, we actuallyhave a toolbox on how you can
(19:55):
write a desire list.
You have to feel into yourdesire, feel into what would
make please you what you want,ask for it and you may get a
response that rubs on you insome way and that's our work.
(20:15):
I know, I know, I know You'reprobably like damn it, Catherine
.
I want it to be his work.
I want him to hear my desireand just want to give it to me.
It's possible.
But one of the things thatBrenda didn't mention in her two
examples, as we talked aboutearrings and perfume, she does
(20:37):
kind of lean and say, oh, thatwas years of work, but it's how
to get clean, and clean justbasically means there's no
residue.
So she's not going to murderhim if he doesn't buy the
perfume or if he just doesn'tget it.
She doesn't withhold love orattention or make him wrong
(20:59):
because she didn't get what shewanted, because the truth is
that if we have, we're inpartnership in any sort of
relationship.
This could be romantic orotherwise.
We're always in relationship.
It's continuous, it's alwayshappening.
So we're not going to ask justfor one thing.
We're probably going to ask formany things.
And how do we stay consciouswhen it's not well-received and
(21:26):
how do we feel into?
Ooh, that hurt, what was thatthat it touched?
And how do I clean it on myside so that the next time I ask
there's no residue?
And I know, I know I knowyou're probably going to say I
said it in the sweetest.
And I know, I know I knowyou're probably gonna say I said
it in the sweetest way and withthe sweetest voice and I was
wearing the most gorgeous dress,but there's an energetic that
(21:47):
men feel.
That is undeniable and sothere's that.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
That's gorgeous.
So two things that I want toadd to that.
First of all, I love that yousaid clean.
That's very important.
That was a really importantpiece that was not in the
diamond example.
I was like, if you don't getthis for me, I'm done.
And the other one I just had somuch love and approval for him,
even wanting to get the perfume, regardless of whether I had it
(22:12):
or not.
Two things I want to say.
One it takes an enormous amountof responsibility to hold your
desire.
It's on us to do it.
It's our desire.
It's easy to pass the hotpotato to somebody else, but
(22:34):
even if your partner or somebodyelse wants to give you your
desire, it's still your desire.
You're responsible for holdingit.
That's why we have to love ourdesires and we have to be right
with our desires.
We have to be right withwanting things, we have to be
right with wanting more.
And if we're in approval of that, if we're in approval of I am a
(23:00):
woman who has desires andyou're willing to hold the
weight of that, that's a verydifferent path.
And look than collapsingbecause your man is like, oh boy
, that's expensive, right?
Give him a chance to get it foryou.
Give anyone a chance, whetherit's someone in your family or
(23:23):
your partner, your kids,whatever.
Give the person a chance towork it through and get this
thing for you.
And that takes you to hold it,because if you say, okay,
nevermind, I don't want thatthing, you're just going to be
resentful.
So that's one thing that I wantto say is, holding the weight
(23:44):
of responsibility is yours.
And the other thing this is thething with men that I've
realized you have to ask them alot of times for things.
You can't just say I want thisthing and then think they're
going to hear you and get it.
Well, maybe that's the casesometimes, but for the bigger
things or the things that mighthave a little bit of a rub, you
(24:07):
might have to ask many times.
You might have to share yourdesire many times for a
particular thing.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I'm going to give you an example.
What if you were going to askthis?
Might be hard to do, but let'stry.
I had somebody talk to me aboutthis client the other day.
You go to ask your boyfriendfor like can you hold me?
And he's like, oh, what's wrong?
And my response I'm curious tohear what comes up for you
Instead of for me.
If that were me, I wouldn't beso activated that he's like
(24:36):
what's wrong?
I would be thinking to myselfwhat has happened where I've
trained him that something iswrong if I ask for this?
And how do I change that sothat nothing has to be wrong?
It's just something I want,right.
Like I just.
(24:57):
I could respond and say I justlove it when you hug me, I love
being in your arms, I just lovebeing in your embrace, nothing's
wrong.
Or if something is wrong, mesaying, actually everything
that's wrong can be fixed, justwith you, your hug, if that's
(25:21):
really what I'm looking for,right.
But if I take it to mean, oh,you don't want to hold me and I
ask for you to hold me, thatmeans you don't love me, or that
means you don't want to hug me,or that means that you're not
available to.
Or if I give it any sort ofcharge.
How hard is it for me to justlove that I want to hug, like
wow, I'm a human being that hasneeds.
(25:41):
I'm using Brenda's speech now,loving that I want to hug.
If I were to use my terminology, I would just say how can I be
in approval of what I'm lookingfor?
And that it's completely humanand normal to ask.
It's a completely normal ask.
There's nothing out of theordinary in my ask and this
(26:01):
person can say no, that's avalid answer.
And if they say no, I get tosay is that not right now or no
forever?
Like I get to be incommunication and understanding
of what's unfolding with the hug.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
That's a really gorgeous example.
I love the fact that youbrought up is this a no forever,
or is this a no right now?
Like, do you never want to hugme again?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yes, I'm like.
Well, what are we talking abouthere?
Is there any kind ofnegotiation Like what are we
talking about?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I think it's a great question, like oh, when can you
do it?
Maybe later, maybe the person'sjust not available right now.
I think that's a reallyimportant distinction, because
somebody might not be availableright now for something, but
maybe in an hour they are, andthen inevitably, if they're not
available for it, well, how doyou take care of yourself right
(27:00):
there?
And the other thing that I wantto bring up as far as this
topic is asking every time likeit's the first time, oh my God,
it's such a big one and it'shard, it's so hard.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
It takes so much practice.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I've been practicing this one for years, like over a
decade.
People Asking every time, likeit's the first time, almost like
asking somebody if they wouldlike a cup of tea.
Would you like a cup of tea?
Would you like a cup of tea?
You wouldn't get resentful overa cup of tea, right?
Speaker 1 (27:37):
You're like do you want tea now?
Yo bitch, do you want some tea?
Come on now.
You know you want tea.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Don't tell me you don't want the tea, but we don't
do that with a cup of tea,right, but it's a great example
and it's a good place topractice just asking every
single time like it's the firsttime.
And that is a great one to workwith, with your partner and
with children.
Asking every time like it's thefirst time, because people
don't hear it the first time.
(28:04):
They might not hear it.
You might say, I said it asplain as day, I was so clear,
but they don't always hear it.
And so if you think somebodydoesn't hear your desire, do you
crumble and do you drop yourdesire?
Or are you willing to hold theweight of it and be an approval
(28:28):
of oh, you have this desire andjust ask again.
You can ask again later.
Will you hold me?
Or maybe tomorrow is adifferent day.
We are literally differentpeople every day.
So what's not available todayis available tomorrow.
But I think it's very easy toget our feelings hurt, find our
desire wrong and then cutourselves off, and then we don't
(28:52):
get what we want and then weend up resentful at our partner.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
It's not a good look.
It really isn't.
Resentful is horrendous.
To be resentful towards ourpartners or friends because they
didn't give us what we wantedor we didn't get what we wanted
in the way that we wanted it.
It all is not cool I get, andthe only way to not be there, I
(29:20):
mean it's bad enough that maybesomebody doesn't want to give it
to us.
Like that part in itself it'soutside of our control.
But we get to be with and putattention on Ooh, why was that
such a big ouch?
Oh, what part of my needs orconditioning did that hit?
Oh, what did I have?
That mean when I didn't get itfrom someone?
(29:41):
And how can I practice askingfor it as if it's the first time
?
How can I remove the chargehere?
Like, where where's my workhere?
What is the most up that Icould put my attention on?
Truly, it's big work.
(30:02):
Brenda, thank you so much fordiving in and giving such juicy
examples.
Thank you, listeners forlistening.
We really hope that thisepisode touched something in you
and really want to encourageyou to ask us if it's the first
time.
I really want to encourage you,we really want to encourage you
to not have or make not gettingsomething mean something and,
(30:27):
of course, if it's continuous,then you reevaluate in whatever
way you see fit.
But please practice, becausethis is going to be a lifelong
lesson, always asking as if it'sthe first time and not taking
their reaction to mean somethingabout us, about you.
(30:48):
Know your worth, now and always.
That's it for today.
Bye, for now.
Thank you for joining us on theDesire is Medicine podcast
Desire invites us to be honest,loving and deeply intimate with
(31:09):
ourselves and others.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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