August 15, 2025 • 53 mins
Think conflict management is only for married couples? Wrong. If you’re single and hoping for a healthy marriage, now is the time to learn it. In this episode, psychotherapist Kamela Salimi shares why conflict is the top issue she sees in couples therapy and how singles can prepare before saying “I do.” We unpack Dr. John Gottman’s “Four Horsemen” and their antidotes, explore how Islam offers built-in tools for emotional regulation long before therapy named them, and reveal why "freedom from the self" is key to lasting love. So say bismillah and hit Download.
Connect with Kamela:
https://www.kamelasalimi.com/
https://muslimwomenswellness.com/
If something we said made you think, laugh, or feel seen, leave us a rating and review! It helps more people find the show. And hey, if you know someone who needs to hear this episode, send it their way. Sharing is caring!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Assalamu alaikum, I'm Hiba.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
And I'm Zaid.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
A podcast that will take you into our world as
matchmakers.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
We'll share our experiences and offer advice for
the single Muslim.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So let's dive in.
Bismillah, assalamu alaikumeveryone, welcome to another
episode.
I'm Zaid and on the other micis my wife and co-host, hiba.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
As-salamu alaykum.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
So today we're honored to have a special guest,
sister Camilla Salimi.
She has a unique background asboth a registered
psychotherapist and certifiedtrauma therapist, with a
specialization in relationaltrauma.
To further her training, shealso obtained a diploma in
Islamic psychology.
She fuses Western psychologywith Islamic psychology.
(00:49):
Her experience ranges fromindividuals to couples to
families.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
No problem, glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So in your line of work, you deal with a lot of
conflict management andcommunication issues, correct?
Yes, so of course, in our lineof work, we focus primarily on
getting people ready formarriage, whether it's assessing
compatibility, finding acompatible spouse and naturally,
the things that people startthinking about are red flags or
(01:21):
what questions should I ask.
But conflicts are usually oneof the last things that come to
mind.
And even when we do think aboutconflicts, it's always in the
context of well, you guys willjust figure it out, don't worry
about it.
So how often do you seemarriages falling apart because
of poor conflict management?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, that's a bit of a loaded question and when I
was reflecting on kind of how toanswer this, it's like a whole
can of worms that I could open.
But to briefly answer it, Iwould say in therapy sessions
the most common issue that Ideal with in couples is conflict
management.
So it's there, it's common,even if it's not talked about.
(02:01):
And are you guys familiar withsomething called the Four
Horsemen of the Apocalypse?
Yeah, the Gottman.
Yes, yeah, so you'll noticeI'll quote Gottman a lot because
he's in the US.
He's known as the father ofmarriage therapy.
So one of them is Stonewallingright Mashallah you guys don't
need me here.
Yes, stonewalling is one of them.
(02:22):
He has this cool thing calledLove Lab where he brings in
couples and he watches how theyinteract and from there he kind
of can guess the outcome of therelationship.
Now, obviously, relationshipsare not that black and white,
but he's pretty confident, basedon his studies that the way
couples fight, he says he canguess with 80% certainty if a
(02:45):
relationship ends or not, and sohis research shows that there's
four things that lead toconflict.
When it's when conflict is notbeing managed, that it can lead
to four things.
So stonewalling is one of them,defensiveness is one, and
that's often coupled withcriticism.
So often we're criticized andthen the person that responds is
(03:05):
defensive.
So defensive, criticism,contempt, and then, yes,
stonewalling state, the one thatyou mentioned and that over
time basically kills connectionand so relationships or
marriages might end because twopeople decide to go their
separate ways or they mightstill be together and there's
actually there's no connection,right?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
um, yeah, okay, so two follow-up questions first,
if you can elaborate about thedifference between conflict
resolution and conflictmanagement, and the second one
is if you can elaborate on eachone of these, these four factors
the four like like the contempt, criticism and defensiveness.
Yeah, like how do they manifest?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yes, yeah, they manifest when we have issues and
we talk about it and we're notresolving anything.
Resolving doesn't have to meanwe have a perfect solution where
both people are happy.
In fact, I think gotman is oneof the people that says there's
differences in marriage, um, andlots of differences, and we
(04:09):
might never get to a point ofresolution.
It's just learning how to livewith the differences.
So if, um, let me just give theexample of um this kind of
happens, uh with with men as, uh, you know, if they come home
from work, they kind of puttheir socks on the floor and the
wife is like you know, pleaseremove your socks, please clean
the counter, and it happens.
I know someone.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I know someone who does that.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
I'm not gonna say who .
So, day after day, if you'relike, please pick up your socks,
please pick up your socks, andif it's not being resolved, one.
What Gottman says is thateventually it leads to the four
horsemen.
And when the four horsemen isthere, that's when it's
basically signifying the day ofjudgment or the end of the
relationship or the end ofconnection, right?
(04:54):
So it's pretty scary and myintention is not to overwhelm
people, but just to be goodabout being vigilant.
And when I do couplescounseling, I always we go
through the four horsemen and Iask you know, what are you
seeing and what are each of youdoing to contribute to the four
horsemen?
Right, because it's easy to belike, oh my God, like he's very
critical of me.
(05:14):
Okay, what role are you playingin that dynamic?
Yeah, so that's a little bitabout the four horsemen.
And then there's ways ofgetting around the horsemen.
I can answer that now if youwant more details, or but you
can answer the two question youasked about resolution and
management.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, do that please Sure.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
So yeah, so to kind of build some hopes that it's
not kind of end of the world,thinking he has the those four
horsemen, but then he hassomething called the antidote to
the four horsemen, right.
So he says if you are, contemptis one of them.
So contempt is more.
I would say of the fourhorsemen, that's the most
(05:57):
dangerous one and what it lookslike is disrespect.
It looks like this feeling ofsuperiority and it, what it
communicates is like disgustwhen you're like really looking
down on the person, and contempt.
We don't start with contempttowards another.
It builds up, like I said, overtime.
So the antidote to contempt isyou build a culture of
(06:18):
appreciation, so you start tofocus on the positive qualities
of your partner and you payattention to those and you name
it as well.
So that's the antidote isbuilding a culture of
appreciation.
And contempt is not somethingyou say, it's also in your body
language.
So one of the most commonexamples is you know when
(06:38):
they're speaking, you're kind ofrolling your eyes, you're kind
of checking out when they'retrying to be vulnerable, things
like that.
Yeah, so that's the contemptFor criticism.
The opposite of it is softstartup.
So Gottman in his lab.
(06:58):
He looks at how a conflictbegins and he can guess, based
on how it begins to, how it'sgoing to end.
Right, so just a gentle startup.
And that's where you hear thevery common like use I language,
you know, don't say you neverpick up your socks, it's you
know, I feel like I don't matter.
This is a very generic example.
(07:20):
Obviously, when conflict ishappening it's much more
complicated generic example.
Obviously, when conflict ishappening, it's much more
complicated, um, but you try tomake it about you, um and your
feeling, as opposed tocriticizing the person and
generalizing about theircharacter and and all that stuff
.
Yeah, um, so that was contempt.
We went through stonewalling, oh, stonewalling we didn't go
(07:40):
through.
That's the other oneStonewalling.
It's pretty self-explanatorywhat it is.
What practically it would looklike is one person just kind of
withdraws, and it can happen forhours.
Sometimes it can happen fordays.
I've worked with couples whereit can happen for weeks, where
one person is just really,really upset and so they just
(08:03):
they withdraw, they shut down,they disconnect.
Often what happens when we'restonewalling is the conflict
feels so much like we're justfeeling overwhelmed and so the
only way we can cope in thatmoment is to step away.
There's nothing wrong with that.
I think stonewalling gets likea bad reputation when we choose
to step away and disconnect.
And when I do couplescounseling, we always talk about
(08:25):
how can we safely disconnectand disengage where the other
person knows I'm not goinganywhere.
I still love you, but I need myspace.
So the opposite of stonewallingis you have to learn how to
self-regulate so that whenyou're in the middle of conflict
and you're really, reallyuncomfortable and all you want
to do is run away and hide um,you, what, what?
(08:48):
What we call is you have toself-soothe.
So, in the same way that youcomfort and calm down a baby,
you have to learn how toself-soothe where you're like
I'm okay, you know we're good,um, and know your limit, like
you're going to reach a pointwhere you're going to that
coping method is going to kickin and you're going to run, but
try to stay present.
Maybe for the conflict that'snot as overwhelming.
(09:09):
Yeah, so that's a little bitabout that.
What would you imagine theopposite of defensiveness is?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
That's a good question.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
That's a good one.
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yeah, so it's taking responsibility, oh okay, yeah,
yeah, yeah okay, I think it'sstill too early for us.
it's not easy to do, but tryingto hear what the other person
has to say to be like wherethere might be some truth in the
thing that's impacting them.
So it's not easy to do in thatmoment.
That's why a lot of, I think,couples work is learning to sit
(09:49):
in that discomfort and trying tostay in the fact that we're a
team, as opposed to it's youversus me.
And that's what can happen whenwe have conflict that's ongoing
, that's not resolved, itbecomes me versus you and as
opposed to we're here in thistogether, we're struggling and
(10:09):
we don't know how to resolve it,which that creates more of a
culture of empathy and givingeach other benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, so what I found is Ihaven't found, but what research
has found is that criticism anddefensiveness kind of go hand
in hand.
So usually you'll have onepartner that's a bit more
critical.
Over time the other personbecomes very defensive and then,
(10:33):
when that's not resolved, itcan lead to more stonewalling
and then eventually, contempt,which is, once contempt is there
, then that's when yeah, it'sserious, like we need to step in
and do some surgery.
It's no longer, you know, let'sjust be patient with each other
and talk it out.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
So, speaking of just before youask your questions, because I
have a feeling I know whatyou're going to ask, but
yesterday I was having coffeewith a friend and we were
talking about, like differencesbetween men and women and
criticism in particular.
So I was telling her that, likeprior to getting married or in
the first stages of marriage,like I didn't know that men and
(11:08):
women handle criticismdifferently, like I would
criticize a lot of things,thinking that, like this is how
we improve, this is how we grow,and I didn't know that men take
criticism sometimes asundermining.
So is there a truth to that oris this just an individual
experience?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
So I kind of stay away from being like this is a
men thing, this is a women thingand this is how men receive.
I found when I've done couplescounseling that every couple is
unique.
In EFT, which is amotion-focused therapy model, my
job becomes whichever coupleI'm seeing that I'm mapping out
their unique dynamic a couple,I'm seeing that I'm mapping out
(11:47):
their unique dynamic.
So there might be a men-womenthing.
I don't have knowledge of that.
For me, what it looks like isfor each people to focus on
their own relationship, and thephrase we use in sessions is how
are things received?
How do things land?
When I said what I said, whatwas my intent, what did I mean
when I say that and how did itland?
And so you can say somethingthat from your background, from
(12:11):
your life story, from yourfamily of origin, it might be
really kind and really helpful.
And then the other person, theway it lands for them, it's like
that was really mean, what youjust said, right, and that can
happen either way, from men towomen, women to men.
So a lot of, especially in thefirst few years of the
relationship, it's learningabout each other, learning about
(12:31):
each other's history, learningabout each other's communication
styles, right?
So I'll give an example is Icome from a family where we're
non-confrontational, we don'traise our voices, and and so for
me, I know that when someonespeaks to me in a raised voice
or like a certain kind of tone,I have a reaction, right, even
(12:53):
if the other person is verywell-meaning.
It's just how.
It's how I react.
So it's about a lot of it comesdown to self-awareness
self-awareness and then buildingawareness of your partner, and
then in time, inshallah, yearsfrom now, you could be like, yep
, you could look back and belike I could see why that didn't
land very well, right?
(13:15):
And that's tied directly tocommunication strengthening and
building communication skills,which is linked to conflict
management, right, the two gohand in hand, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
So, to bring it back to singlehood, I wanted to
actually go back to the fourhorsemen and ask you how do
these things?
Or is there a way for people tobe self-aware and look out for
these things prior to marriage,so that people can get mentally
(13:45):
ready for marriage, in a sense?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yes, you can do your homework.
You can take time getting toknow the person.
I guess there's two ways ofanswering this.
Part of it is doing yourhomework, where you get to know
the person.
You ask questions.
Part of your questions can belike how do you handle conflict?
And sometimes people know howto give the right answer.
(14:10):
It could be also when conflictcomes up in the getting to know
phase.
So the earlier question wassaying that we don't really ask
about conflict management.
Whether we ask about it or not,it shows up when we're getting
to know.
So, as bumps come up, how doesthe other person handle it?
How is their emotionalreactivity?
What is their dynamic withtheir family like?
(14:30):
And I know not everyone'sfamily represents kind of how
they do things, but what aretheir boundaries like, things
like that.
So you kind of do your homeworkin that aspect and to do that,
by the way, requires you doingyour own work, because you need
to have the awareness to pick upon those things.
So I always say a lot ofpreparing for marriage and
preparing for having children isyou do the work on yourself,
(14:52):
you build that self-awarenessand then eventually I think in
any situation when you'regetting to know someone.
At the end of the day, it's aleap of faith that you take when
you decide okay, this is theperson that I'm going to kind of
share my life with.
We see how it goes.
You pray istikhara, you makedua, you hope for the best, and
then marriage comes after.
(15:17):
And to answer your question, Ithink sometimes, when it comes
to conflict, our approachbecomes okay, how do we avoid
conflict?
Like, how can we have our listchecked so that we don't have to
get to that place?
Right?
And I would say that that'smore of a problematic question
because it's, I think, I havemore of an issue with the
problem because it looks atconflict more from a place of
like fear as opposed to it's anormal thing.
(15:38):
It's going to happen, no matterhow much you love each other.
Love is not enough to avoidconflict.
Knowing that it's going tohappen, knowing that there's
days we're going to feel reallyconnected and other days we
might not like each other thatmuch, how do we move forward?
Right?
So then it becomes about.
We can talk more about it lateron.
(15:59):
I'm kind of going to adifferent topic, which is
instead of how do we create thesystem where we have our what,
the i's dotted and the t'scrossed so we don't get to that
place.
How do we, how do we stayvigilant and have a really good
repair process so that when wedo have fights, when we feel
disconnected, we know what to do, do as a team to kind of move
through that?
Speaker 2 (16:20):
That's a good point you brought up, because you know
some couples brag about neverfighting and we just have the
perfect marriage and everythingis just hunky-dory and that's
sometimes seen as the idea.
But no conflict, I'm assuming,is a bad thing.
Right, it could be a red flagin disguise, correct?
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah, there might be some miraculous couple where
they don't have fights, I'massuming, is a bad thing, right,
it could be a red flag indisguise, correct?
Yeah, there might be somemiraculous couple where they
don't have fights.
So I don't want to just be likeno conflict is everywhere.
Realistically, from having beenmarried and having working with
clients, yes, conflict exists.
But again, I think it's theissue with that thing of like,
oh, we never have conflict ishow you're viewing conflict, is
(16:57):
you're seeing conflict as a badthing, and maybe there's an
assumption that if we haveconflict, that it erodes the
connection.
But in fact, like there's, whenyou have conflict, it means you
care for the relationship, youcare for one another, and that
process of going through ittogether, feeling disconnected,
repairing can actually increaseconnection.
(17:18):
So a lack of conflict is notnecessarily a great thing for
the connection, right.
And I think that's where peoplewould be like yeah, yeah, we
were good, we don't haveconflict.
That might not be a bad thing.
That might not be a good thingeven if you don't have conflict.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Because things might be building up in the background
right.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Yes, yeah.
So in the cases where you needto have conflict but you're
avoiding conflict, yeah, that'sthe case.
So I've dealt with coupleswhere it's like and even in my
own life, like, depending on theday that I'm going through,
where I just don't have thecapacity or the energy or the
other person might not to belike let's have a conversation
about this, let's talk aboutthis, let's talk about this.
I'm just going to be like I'mfine, I'm good, right, but if I
(17:57):
do that long term, that's wherewe move towards the four
horsemen.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, Okay.
Now, two people can havecompletely different conflict
styles.
One could be like you mentionedbefore they need space, they
need some time.
And the other one could be likeno, we need to figure this out
immediately and not let it likenot even go to sleep without
resolving this conflict.
So when you have two peoplewith different styles like this,
(18:24):
how do you handle this?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, one thing I always have to remind couples is
difference is not a bad thing.
So sometimes couples will comein and be like I don't, like
we're, I'm really scared we'reso different, like are things
going to end between us?
And they'll list a list ofthings that where they're
different.
So I just want to kind ofreframe to challenge the framing
of the question.
Difference is not a bad thing,it's just again, it's going back
(18:49):
to what we talked about earlierwhat is your unique couple map
as a couple, and how do weaddress that?
So in EFT, which is a commonmodel for couples, what we would
do is if you two were to comein and see me, I would say, okay
, let's name a conflict that yourecently had.
How did it start?
How did each of you react?
(19:09):
What happened in the end?
Were you able to resolve?
Did you talk about it the nextday?
What was going on?
And so with the emotion focusedtherapy model, they actually
have kind of templates of commondynamics that they found with
couples.
So one of the most common onesthat I see like 80% of the time
(19:30):
and that I even kind ofpersonally experienced in my own
marriage, is you have thepursuer withdraw.
And so during conflict, youhave one person that's pursuing,
that's like no, no, no, like wehave to resolve this right now,
we can't go to bed angry, let'stalk about it, and they're just
, they're restless, and they'renot okay.
And then the other person isthe withdrawer.
And then they kind of check out.
(19:50):
And I would say again, likesome people ask oh, do men fit
more in one?
Do women fit more in the other?
I've seen a bit more where menare withdrawing.
Women tend to be pursuers.
But even in my own marriage Ican be the withdrawer a little
bit sometimes too.
So I don't want to generalizefor, let's say, years of let's
(20:18):
solve this and they just gettired.
Then you have the burnt outpursuer.
Yeah, you have the burnt outpursuer who's like yep, I don't
care, right.
So then it might lead the otherperson to be like, well, wait,
let's talk.
What just happened, right?
So, yeah.
So what happens is you want tofigure out your unique map.
It's not always as simple asyou fit in this box, I fit in
this box.
But how do we then, as a couple, address these differences?
(20:40):
And if you fit in thepursuer-withdrawer category,
there's a really cool activitycalled timeout where, let's say,
you get to, you're trying tofigure something out, you're not
, it's not being resolved.
You're both getting reallyfrustrated.
The person who's the withdraweris like I need some space.
Then the pursuer has to respectthat and so we call timeout.
(21:00):
Timeout can be one hour, it canbe half a day, sometimes it can
be 24 hours.
The timeout happens with thepromise that the person who's
withdrawing comes back, and thenwe have a discussion, because
what happens with the withdraweris they kind of leave and then
we never actually talk aboutwhat happened, and that's where
the pursuer is now.
It's not fair for the pursuerbecause they're like you know,
(21:21):
when are we going to talk aboutwhat happened?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Does that answer the question?
Yeah, yeah, I like thistechnique because, like, instead
of thinking the withdrawer isjust gone indefinitely and like
the other person is feelinganxious Okay, what's going to
happen?
Are we going to talk about it?
Like this sets like anexpectation.
I like that.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
And one thing I'll add is that sometimes when we
look at relationships or whenwe're following social media, we
can get into the pattern of oh,I have like an avoidant husband
, or I married a narcissist.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
And sometimes that would start labeling each other.
Yes, so.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
I don't want to dismiss that that that does
happen.
Often.
From my experience, what I'veseen is you have two people that
are trying to make thisrelationship work that aren't
always doing it the right way.
That's also bringing in theirown family history of trauma.
So not trauma, sorry, their ownhistory, family dynamics,
things like that.
So we're all coping indifferent ways when we're
(22:15):
activated and so, and sometimesthose ways that we're coping
coping in different ways whenwe're activated and so, and
sometimes those ways that we'recoping is not productive to the
relationship.
So it's just about okay.
What are my coping strategies?
How is it productive to therelationship?
Does it feed connection ordisconnection?
And how do we each need to holdeach other so that we're coping
in a better way that promotesconnection, as opposed to?
(22:37):
I'm super activated.
I'm going to do what I need todo to feel relief, whether it's
I have to pursue you till weresolve this, or I'm going to
check out.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Okay.
Well, a single Muslim listeningto this might feel marriage is
a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Like is it really worth?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
it.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yeah, is that your question for me?
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I don't know if that's a question or just an
observation.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I think what she's trying to ask is how do we
relieve the single guy or girland uh, and just put them at
ease and and give them tools toget them ready?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
well, like it always comes back to having faith in
Allah, making lots of dua.
Everything that happens is goodfor us.
So I'm not meaning to scarepeople away.
We also shouldn't take marriagelightly.
It's not a joke.
In Islam, it's considered anact of worship.
So what I would say is it takeseffort, it takes intentionality
(23:33):
, and so that's why you have todo your homework and you have to
take your time.
Sometimes, you know, when wewatch, like, Bollywood movies,
right, we kind of expect thatit's going to be butterflies,
and it's like we're focusingmore on the chemistry side of
things, and so we have torealize that we're two human
beings trying to come togetherand build a life.
(23:53):
Eventually inshallah, if Allahplans raising kids, all of those
things.
So I don't think it's a badthing to be scared a little bit
If that's going to help usbecome more intentional.
But also, yeah, like and I'msure you two can name a few
things that you know marriage isa blessing.
That, like, even with myhusband, for example, like the
(24:14):
fact that we pray together, Likethat to me is incredible.
You know, the fact that I havesomeone now that I can go to and
talk about my feelings, Right.
So I guess, because we'refocusing on conflict management,
we're not focusing on you knowthe amazing parts of it.
This is also just as important,though.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And to add to that, you know we sometimes forget
that the Prophet had maritaldisputes, right Like even his
marriage wasn't perfect in thatregard, because he had wives
that had different personalities.
So you know, given yourbackground in Islamic psychology
, what does conflict resolutionlook like in Islamic context?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, so that's a.
It's a very big questionBecause I think to answer, how
does Islam look at conflictresolution?
We have to look at Islam as alifestyle right, and so what is
the difference between Islamicpsychology?
What you know, how does Westernpsychology view things?
And so I'm going to try to kindof keep my thoughts clear.
(25:18):
One of the main differences,without going too much into
philosophy and, yeah, because Iknow we're focusing on conflict
management one of the biggestdifferences between Islamic
psychology and Westernpsychology is that Western
psychology looks at freedom ofthe self.
This is what I learned when Istudied Islamic psychology.
Islamic psychology looks atfreedom, of freedom from the
(25:38):
self.
Yeah, I'm gonna give us give youa sec for that to settle, yeah,
yeah yeah, there's a differencebetween the two, right?
Yeah, absolutely yeah,interesting yeah, how do you
think that difference wouldimpact marriage or how we
approach marriage, like if youwere to take a guess.
Zaid, can I take a guess?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I have an idea Go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Okay, Western psychology is more like
self-centered how to like notget the upper hand, but how like
it's all about you.
But Islamic psychology is howto free yourself from your ego,
from your desires, fromeverything that's negative.
Is that close?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Yeah, that's part of it, soyou're in the right direction.
Okay, zaid, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I was thinking the same thing.
Like one sounds morenarcissistic and the other one
sounds more selfless.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yes, yeah, and I think it's not meant to put down
Western psychology, or ifanyone listens to this, they're
like, well, I'm not seeing atherapist, you know, because
they're putting these kinds ofvalues.
No, no, there's nothing wrongwith looking out for yourself
and taking care of yourself andself-preservation.
I think it kind of and I'm sureyou see it on social media and
(26:56):
in the culture that we're movingtowards, where it's freedom of
the self, looks at me, myboundaries, qualities about
myself that I need to work on,that I need to improve on.
And so, islamically, our lifeshould be this constant process
(27:34):
of working on our heart,strengthening those weaknesses,
and a marriage is a beautifultool for that, because you can
help each other with that.
There's a positive twist there,um, yeah, so I think part one
part of marriage is it requiresa lot of selflessness.
Um, sometimes it requires beingpatient with the other person,
um, even if you feel like, yep,I've been wronged, you know.
Obviously I want to make itclear that in cases of abuse and
(27:55):
stuff like that, uh, that's awhole different discussion.
But when you have two peoplethat are trying, they're not
always figuring it out.
Sometimes they're at astandstill.
There's disconnection.
Part of the patience.
There's values within Islamthat can help us get through
that, which is forgiveness,compassion, patience towards one
another, compassion, patiencetowards one another.
(28:16):
And the beautiful thing is, inIslamic psychology, it's not
just me and you working together, it's me and you, anchored in
this faith called Islam and thisLord that we both believe in.
Hopefully, we both pray toSahara, you know, before making
that decision to be with eachother.
So we move from me versus youto us to now us and Allah, and
(28:40):
we are accountable to him and wehave to answer to him.
So how do I do?
Right by my spouse?
Yeah, so that's one other thing.
Making lots of dua, I think wehave access to that.
One thing that's reallyinteresting, that never came up
in my training in Westernpsychology, is shaitan, right.
So one of the things we knowshaitan loves is when he creates
(29:03):
disconnection between spouses.
Yeah, right, so we seekprotection from shaitan, like we
should be doing that daily.
I don't know even more thandaily, if you want, daily, I
don't know, even more than daily, if you want.
But there's that peace and thatI wanted to bring some examples
to just humanize the Prophetpeace be upon him and then also
(29:25):
Aisha Radila and, I think, zaid.
You mentioned an example whereyou said in the question that
you asked, you said that theSahabas, I think, showed
emotions.
I don't know if I remember thatcorrectly.
I was talking about how thewives had different
personalities, oh okay okay,yeah so I don't know too much
about the wives and theirpersonalities, but, um, I'll
focus on aisha and there's one,that story that I heard that
(29:48):
always sticks with me, um, so,and I don't know if you guys
have heard of it, so, um, thestory is that it was her time,
um, with uh problem peace beupon him.
And I think one of the otherwives sent over some food and so
she kind of, yeah, okay.
No but do tell it, please.
Yeah, so I think she gotannoyed because it was her time
(30:10):
with him, and so even justanother wife bringing over food
annoyed her and she threw theplate over and the plate broke
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Like, imagine that and the prophet had guests, so
she did this in front of guestsas well.
I didn't know that part.
Yeah, and, and she was also shewas also known to be a bad cook
, so she took it as like apersonal attack.
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
There's many layers that we can, but look at that
Like she.
Yeah, there's many layers thatwe can, but look at that like
she.
It's aisha radhi olan, like the, the woman that recorded so
many hadiths that we now use.
She threw a plate.
It broke.
She was jealous that the, the,the term we would use.
The clinical term is she wasdysregulated, right, um.
So she's a human being withemotions.
And she wasn't saying, oh, Ifeel upset right now, right,
(30:58):
like where sometimes we expecteach other to do that in the
heat of the moment, that youshould still be able to talk to
me properly, and it's no.
Her emotions took over, um.
So that's one example I wantedto use.
Another one is not reallyrelated to marriage, but, uh,
the prophet peace be upon himwhen his son died, uh is when
his son, ibrahim, as died, um,started to cry, and so the
(31:19):
Sahabas were like.
One of the Sahabas said oh,prophet, even you cry.
And I wrote down what he said.
He said the eyes shed tears andthe heart feels sorrow, but we
do not say except that whichpleases Allah.
Indeed, we are saddened by yourdeparture, o Ibrahim.
So I use that as an example,even in individual sessions, to
(31:40):
say that, like he literally says, the eyes shed tears and the
heart feels sorrow, so it's likethe eyes are doing their own
thing, right?
That's in somatic therapy,which is we look at the body and
how the body responds andreacts.
Like this is emotions and it'sokay.
Like this is emotions and it'sokay.
And there's tears and it's nota sign of, you know,
ungratefulness, but that thesethings happen and we have
(32:05):
reactions.
And then the last example thatalways comes to mind that will
help answer the question thatyou had asked Zaid, was when
Aisha Radiyohan asked theProphet peace be upon him, you
know about his love for her andhe said it's like a strong
binding knot.
I don't know if you've heard ofthat.
That's a common one, I guess.
Yeah, um, and then every oncein a while, she would ask him
how is the knot?
And he would say as strong asthe first day you I don't know
(32:27):
if it's as the first day youasked or the first day they were
together.
That part I'm not sure about,um.
So this is an example of twopeople that are attuned, um,
that there's clearly betweenthem closeness, affection,
respect, um, attachment, um, and, and this is the example we're
supposed to um, cause he is thebest example that we're supposed
(32:50):
to work towards.
Um, that we're supposed to umand it's an inside kind of thing
.
I was.
I was gonna say inside joke.
It's not a joke, but it's thisinside thing that they have that
connects them together.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
If you're overwhelmed and burdened and just don't
know where to seek help, let ushelp you.
We can be your personalmatchmakers.
Visit us at halalmatchca andbook a free call with us.
The thing that stands out to mein the example of um the second
example you gave, uh when theprophet sallallahu alayhi wa
(33:21):
sallam son passed away is that,even in the heat of the moment,
he was uh setting boundariesright.
That even then, you don't saythings displease allah.
Right and I believe there'salso a verse in the quran about
that that no matter how badthings get, there are still
boundaries that you don't cross.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Yes.
So our hope is that and this isthe best example that we're
trying to follow and we'retrying to emulate that and our
hope is that, even in moments ofintense dysregulation, that we
have some level oflevel-headedness where our
emotions show up and we try notto cross those certain lines.
What I would say is that therewill be times, because he is the
(33:59):
best example, we're supposed tofollow him.
We are not him.
Is that you might?
There might be times when youmight not, you might not name
that boundary, or you might sayor do something, depending on
you know what the trigger was orwhat happened that led to the
conflict that boundaries mightbe crossed, you might forget the
boundary.
And that's where it's okay.
It's not the end of the world.
We're not focusing on notmaking mistakes, we're focusing
(34:21):
on the repair process.
And so once, like, if we have areally and John Gottman talks
about that, he says that thebest, but from his research on
the love labs, the happiestcouples sometimes have screaming
matches.
Really, that's hard to believe,right?
Yeah, they have screamingmatches, but they're happy,
connected couples.
So when that happens, it's okay.
(34:42):
It's not the end of the world.
Both of you, like, we need tobreathe, take some space and
then we're going to come backand repair.
Right, the word for that?
What I would say with clients issecurity.
Right, that, as couples, weneed to work towards building
security in our marriage.
Right, if we have conflict, wehave screaming matches.
I'm not trying to normalizescreaming matches.
I'm saying it will happen andit's okay.
(35:03):
It's not the end of the world,but the idea is, as you get
better at handling conflict, asyou get better at your repair
process, you build security.
Security means you know it'sgoing to be.
We're going to have good days,we're going to have bad days,
but I know you're here for meand I'm here for you.
When a marriage lacks security,it's more like oh crap, we just
had a fight.
(35:23):
Is he going to leave me or do Ineed to run away?
Do I need to leave?
Did I make the wrong decision?
And, by the way, in the firstfew years of marriage, it takes
time to build security.
So those are normal thoughtsthat can happen, because
security doesn't happenovernight.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Interesting, interesting.
So two questions.
I'll just start with the one,not to confuse you.
How can we train ourselves notto bring old conflicts and like,
oh, remember three years, 15days ago you said this, or
remember when you said this tome?
And sometimes it happensunintentionally.
(35:58):
And even if we were able toresolve the conflict, sometimes
some things just remain.
So how can we, like, get rid ofthis?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
yeah, free ourselves from the baggage package it's
usually women that get thatreputation that you brought up
something three years ago.
I didn't say it, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Yeah.
So the hope is we don't want toget to a point where things
have built up for years andyears and years, right?
This is why we need so mucheducation for couples when it's
premarital, so that they havetools and resources to do their
homework when they're choosing aspouse and that, once you're
married, it's okay.
It's still not the end of theworld.
How do we get more tools sothat we're really good at
handling conflict management?
Yeah, so what I would say isdon't let it build up over years
(36:48):
.
Part of it, too, is as there'stwo pieces to it.
Part of it as you get to knoweach other and as you learn
about each other.
John Gottman says that there'scertain differences that you're
not going to be able to everresolve, and so it's about kind
of.
Part of it is accepting certainflaws in our partner, and you
have to take accountability overthat of you know, I wish he was
(37:09):
different in this way, but he'sreally not.
And you know, do I want toleave or do I want to make this
work?
If I'm going to this work, thenI need to maybe stop trying to
change this one thing.
I guess it depends on the thingas well.
You might decide, nope, this isgoing to drive me crazy.
And that's one of the thingsfor researchers that look at
relationships from aproblem-focused lens is choose
(37:31):
your partner based on theproblems that you can't handle
the problems that are going todrive you crazy.
So if you're very protective ofmoney and you want to save
every penny and you're very, youknow, intentional about where
your money goes, and you'retalking to someone who's you
know just doesn't save, doesn'tbudget, that's probably not the
(37:51):
best person for you to get toknow further, right for you to
get to know further, right?
So that opens up a whole otherquestion of things, differences
that we need to look out for.
So religion is one thing weneed to assess, for Money is
another one.
Children do they want to havechildren, do they not?
If you want to have kids andthey don't, you're not going to.
(38:14):
Don't marry this personthinking you're going to
convince them to have children,because it's going to build
resentment, right?
Don't marry this personthinking you're going to
convince them to have childrenbecause it's going to build
resentment, right?
What are views about in-laws?
How often are we expected tovisit them?
If issues come up with in-laws,how do we handle it as a couple
, right?
What are boundaries that areimportant to you?
Is the other person on the samepage?
Those things, hopefully,ideally, you want to get to know
(38:35):
before you make a decision tomarry that person.
Once you're married and you'redealing with those issues, it's
not the end of the world.
You know we still make lots ofdua.
It happened, it was meant to bethings like that, but then I
guess your question kind of asksabout that.
So acceptance is one piece Ifyou're already married and
you're like, ok, like, is thissomething I can accept.
(38:56):
Acceptance is one piece.
If you're already married andyou're like, ok, like, is this
something I can accept, thathelps with preventing build up a
resentment over time, right.
And then another thing,especially if these things have
accumulated over time, isnarrative, right.
Narrative therapy model is a bigmodel that lots of therapists
get trained in, and narrativetherapy just looks at life as
stories.
What are the stories that I sayabout myself, what are the
(39:18):
stories that I've internalizedabout my partner, my family, the
stranger down the street?
And so you have to beintentional about looking at
your marriage and what are thestories that you're telling
yourself about the other person?
And is it leading to connectionor disconnection?
And if we bring within ourfaith kind of paradigm you know
(39:39):
we believe in shaitan how doesshaitan kind of affect the
framing that happens duringconflict about how we see our
partner?
And so in that case we need toreframe, right?
Am I moving in a place whereI've internalized all these
stories about my partner that'sleading to disconnection?
(40:00):
How do we reframe?
Sometimes you can't do it onyour own, sometimes you need,
you know, couples counselingthings like that.
Yeah, that's where I wouldstart.
Does that answer your question?
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah, and, more Honestly, every time you answer
a question, more questions comeup.
The topic is so vast that it'syeah, to answer with one or two.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they hope I'mnot hoarding the conversation,
yeah, um, well, god remember.
I said I have two questions,now they became three, okay, so,
(40:32):
oh, my god, okay, I.
I think that um, a lot of times, like like, of course, we're
all Muslims, we know what webelieve in, what we don't
believe in, but, like in themoment, in the heat of the
moment, a lot of these thingsbecome more like hypothetical or
, like I did, like even, likeyou said, shaitan, like we
realize, shaitan is an entityand, like you said, like there's
(40:55):
a hadith where the prophet saidif someone's angry and they're
standing, sit down.
If they're sitting down you'reangry, then lay down because,
like, shaitan is just fueling it.
But when we're in the heat ofthe moment, all these things
become like I don't know.
Yes, not practical anymore.
How can we actually internalizethis and bring it into our
(41:18):
conflicts?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Yes, so I don't know how much to answer that from an
Islamic lens, but from mytraining as a trauma therapist
depending on how heated theconflict is getting research
shows that there's a point where, when our emotions are to such
an intensity, the prefrontalcortex which is the part of the
(41:39):
brain that focuses on meaning,making, problem solving,
abstract thinking, reflectingthat goes offline.
Yeah, so that's why, when we'reat that level, when you tell
someone calm down, be gratefulto Allah, when you start
lecturing them, that's goingover their head Right to Allah.
(42:00):
When you start lecturing them,that's going over their head
right.
In those moments you can'texpect yourself and the other
person to stay grounded andlogical and respect your
boundaries.
That is an unrealistic, unfairexpectation.
When we get to that point ofintensity, both people should
know that we shouldn't beengaging further with each other
.
We need to step away Becauseonce you get to a level of
intensity, you can problem solvefor hours and hours and hours.
(42:23):
You're not going to getanywhere.
Probably you'll make thingsworse because your emotions are
in the driver's seat and I'veheard from couples they'll say,
yeah, we had a fight and thenfor four hours that day we
talked about it and I'm like no,don't do that.
So there is such a thing wherethere's a line, when that's
crossed, logic kind of goes outthe window.
And so it's not about how do Istay logical at that point, it's
(42:46):
what do I need to do, knowingthat logic has gone out the
window and we need to step back,decompress, take some time and
then come back and re-engage.
The work you, both of you, haveto do is about that building
that self-awareness andawareness of one another to say
how do I know I'm moving in thatdirection and it can be, let's
say, for both of you could be.
(43:07):
I didn't sleep well the nightbefore, I haven't eaten, I
haven't been outside, I haven'tmoved around.
You know I had issues withfamily that come up.
Work was stressful and so ifyour cup is empty and you're
moving in that direction andthen one of you says or does
something that kind of adds tothat, and then you explode.
Building that self-awarenessmeans how do I know that, oh, I
(43:28):
or my partner are moving in thatdirection?
How do we take a step backbefore we even get there in the
first place?
Probably on those days whenwe're the clinical term for it
is when our window is small.
On those days when our windowis small and we can tell one or
both of us is really out of it,probably those are not the best
days to be having seriousconversations, trying to make
big decisions, and so it's up toeach person to communicate hey,
(43:52):
I think today I'm not well, andfor the other person to respect
that and say, okay, let's takea step back, let's check in with
each other again.
So it requires a lot ofcheck-in and those check-ins are
what's going to get in the wayof the narrative, of the framing
right.
So if you tell your partner,hey, today's not a good day,
like I'm not doing, well, youknow, maybe you can take care of
(44:13):
dinner I don't know what itmight look like and your partner
knows, then they're like, oh,she's just, she's not okay today
, and I'm gonna remember that.
Versus wow, she's being cold tome today, she's ignoring me,
she didn't even bother makingdinner, right?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
yeah, yeah, subhanallah.
I'm just baffled right nowbecause when you said that
there's a part of the brain thatstops like functioning normally
when you get to that level oflike anger, it just reminded me
that, subhanallah, like in oursharia, when a divorce, like a
talaq, happens in that kind ofmoment, it's not, um, like it
(44:50):
doesn't.
Actually it doesn't happen likesubhanallah, because, like you
said, like allah, like you're ata stage where you can't think
clearly.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
That's, that's amazing, and I want to add,
because now your point is makingme add more, so I think we're
going to be here for a few hours.
When I studied Islamicpsychology, islam in itself is a
form of healing, islam initself is a form of therapy.
And the way that Allah hasordained for us to go make wudu,
(45:19):
to pray five times a day whenwe can, those are all meant to
kind of serve as release, right,as moments when we step back,
when we breathe, as opposed tojust kind of running, running,
running and doing the rat raceof life.
Right, I was in a therapytraining where, for the DBT
model, where they were sayingyeah, when you're really heated
and you want to yell, go to thewashroom and wash your face with
cold water.
And they said put cold waterfrom your hands all the way to
(45:41):
your elbows.
And I was sitting there and Iwas like yeah, I was like, wait,
it sounds like wudu, right.
So I don't need to go in andanalyze every act of worship in
Islam and say, how does it fitwith what Western therapy is
telling us, no, no, islamdoesn't need that.
Islam in itself is a form oftherapy.
So if we, you know, we make dua, we're intentional about
fulfilling those acts of worship.
(46:03):
It's going to help us in ourrelationships with ourselves, in
our marriage and in our abilityto regulate ourselves.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Absolutely beautiful, like the shaitan itself.
We know it.
It's made of heat, it's made offire.
So when you go make wudu, itputs like, puts off that heat
and that fire.
And like the prophet alaihisalam used, like if he got
anxious about something, he usedto run away to prayer.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Subhanallah, like I would really love if even us, on
a personal level, we startimplementing these, these
beautiful like practices yeah,yeah, and I just heard from a
friend we, uh, my husband and I,visited his cousins and we were
asking them because they'rethey've been married longer than
us.
We said what's your marriageadvice?
And he said go to allah beforeyou go to your husband.
Um, and it doesn't mean, likeyou know, avoid talking to
(46:52):
things with your husband, but itmeans, like, especially in
those moments where you'rereally upset, you're really
frustrated with the other personand you're like, why aren't
they hearing me?
You go to Allah, you complain,uh, you ask for his help, you,
you, you know, you name yourhelplessness, um, the hurt that
you're feeling, you cry if youneed to, you let it out, you
know, and then you come back andsay let's talk.
(47:13):
And so it's kind of like, ifyou imagine a pressure cooker,
you're releasing some of thatthrough, you know, talking to
Allah, and then you go back and,of course, allah, you know,
hears your duas, hears your pain, and he intervenes in whatever
way he thinks is best.
But, yeah, beautiful and thesorry once more that the go to
Allah before your husband.
That applies in allrelationships, not just when
(47:33):
you're married if you're singleand you looking go to Allah
before you go to your parentsand all those things.
Sorry, zaid.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
No, that's fine.
One of the few phrases I knowin Arabic is which means.
I hope I can translate that.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
I complain to Allah about you To the one and only
and imagine if you, instead ofdoing doing that, you went to
your parents or you know friendsand started playing right.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Like what would happen sometimes people just add
fuel to the fire.
Yeah, keeping a fire and heat,yeah, I think these beautiful
practices and practicalpractices because someone might
look at them and say, yeah, yeah, these things like okay, but
give me something practical, butthese are practical.
I think these practices arelike one of the things that
(48:22):
single Muslims can start likedeveloping and growing before
marriage.
There's a lot to do before youget married.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
Yeah, I would say build your relationship with
Allah, focus on your prayers.
Those are all ways that you'relearning how to self-regulate
and you know it's, you'reworking on your heart, and when
that happens and you meetsomeone else and you're building
a life with them, it's going tobe a lot easier.
It doesn't mean it's going tobe without issues, but Islam is
a resource, it's a tool that wecan draw from.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Any resources you can recommend to our single
listeners to prepare them.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
Anything, yeah.
So I quoted gotman a lot.
He has lots of uh, and I thinkit's his wife too.
They do research together, soit's john and julie gotman.
So I would go into uh, go toyoutube, look at the love labs.
Gary chapman is another one,where five love languages, um,
love tank, um, even learningabout attachment is important to
(49:21):
figure out.
You know, when it comes toconflict, are you an avoider?
Are you a little more of ananxious person where you're a
bit clingy?
None of that is bad.
It's just how do you need, whatare ways that you need to cope
on your own, and what would youneed from a partner?
And so, keeping that in mind,when you're getting to know
someone and I would say a lot ofit comes back to a lot of
(49:44):
relational work, I would say isdoing the work on yourself.
And the work never stops, evenwhen you're married.
You know the work continues.
But sometimes we get so focusedon finding that person that
we're not doing the work onourselves.
So do that.
We're not doing the work onourselves.
So do that.
Strengthen your relationshipwith Allah.
Work on being a better Muslim.
You don't have to be perfect.
Make lots of dua, ask Allah forhelp.
(50:07):
You know prayers are reallyimportant.
Start there, even if you're notdoing all five, but just show
up with some effort andsincerity and make lots of dua.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
So for single Muslims listening right now, who
haven't lived with a partner yet, some practical or three
practical things they can startdoing before marriage to get
better at conflict.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
So and I've probably sound like a broken radio, I've
said this a few times buildself-awareness, work on yourself
, know your strengths, know yourweaknesses.
Think about conflict.
How do you respond to conflict?
Are you someone that withdraws?
Are you a pursuer?
And look at your currentrelationships and yes, there's
(50:46):
some relationships that aretricky.
Things with family might becomplicated, there's no denying
of that.
But is there room in otherfriendships to practice, or even
within your family, those morekind of practicing those skills
communicating, strengtheningemotion, regulation, things like
that?
So you don't need to just buildthose skills with a partner,
(51:09):
you can practice those.
How do you set boundaries inyour single days, things like
that?
And then I would say getsupport if you need like that um
.
And then I would say getsupport if you need um.
When I was in cambridge and wewere studying uh, I'm studying
islamic psychology there Italked a little bit about the
window of tolerance and howsometimes we can get pushed out
of our capacity and how much wecan handle.
And I asked it was sheikh idriswatts.
(51:31):
I don't know if he's familiarto you guys.
I've heard the name.
Follow him on instagram.
He's really amazing.
He's a trauma therapist and hestudies the Quran, so he kind of
brings the two together, whichis amazing, yeah.
So I just asked him.
I said, okay, so the Westernkind of model of the window of
capacity there's a window andwe're kind of sometimes within
that window and then thingshappen in life that pushes us
(51:53):
out of our window, where I evennamed the prefrontal cortex,
goes offline.
Doesn't that mean that Allah isgiving us in that moment more
than we can handle?
And it's a question that I'mstill kind of asking.
Like I don't know all theanswers to, but he said
sometimes, when we're out of ourwindow and things feel really
hard, it might not be that Allahexpects us to carry more weight
(52:13):
or carry that burden.
Sometimes he expects us to askfor help and maybe we're just
trying too hard to figure it outon our own and we're stretching
ourselves more than Allah wantsus to stretch.
So getting support, asking forhelp, but also doing the same
thing when you're married aswell, and even asking with a
potential partner, you know, ifwe're struggling on our own,
(52:36):
maybe there's conflict, thatover time it's just getting
worse.
What would we do at that point?
Who would we ask for support?
Things like that okay.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Do you work with single muslims or just couples?
Yeah, I do.
Individual and couple okay.
And if someone would reach outto you and seek your services,
how would they do that?
Speaker 3 (52:55):
yeah, so um, the practice that I'm part of is
called Muslim Women's Wellness.
We're supporting Muslim Women'sWellness and we also offer
relational therapy if that'sneeded, because that is also
helping women in their wellness.
So it's calledmuslimwomenswellnesscom.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Okay, we will link that inshallah.
So you work exclusively withwomen?
Speaker 3 (53:15):
Yes, it's myself, and I have three other associates.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Okay, okay, awesome.
Wow, I hope we didn't.
Yeah, we didn't ask too many.
Honestly, I still have more.
Maybe we'll save that foranother interview.
Speaker 3 (53:32):
No worries, yeah, jazakallah khair, nice chatting
with you both, thank you so muchour, our beautiful listeners.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
We hope you took some homework to do yourself.
Don't wait for marriage tohappen and conflict to happen
until you start doing the work.
Um, there's still a lot to donow and, inshallah, we hope you
took some gyms with you allright, salam alaikum yeah, salam
alaikum.
Assalamu alaikum, I'm Hiba.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
And I'm Zaid.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
A podcast that will take you into our world as
matchmakers.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
We'll share our experiences and offer advice for
the single Muslim.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So let's dive in.
Bismillah, assalamu alaikumeveryone, welcome to another
episode.
I'm Zaid and on the other micis my wife and co-host, hiba.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
As-salamu alaykum.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
So today we're honored to have a special guest,
sister Camilla Salimi.
She has a unique background asboth a registered
psychotherapist and certifiedtrauma therapist, with a
specialization in relationaltrauma.
To further her training, shealso obtained a diploma in
Islamic psychology.
She fuses Western psychologywith Islamic psychology.
(00:49):
Her experience ranges fromindividuals to couples to
families.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
No problem, glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
So in your line of work, you deal with a lot of
conflict management andcommunication issues, correct?
Yes, so of course, in our lineof work, we focus primarily on
getting people ready formarriage, whether it's assessing
compatibility, finding acompatible spouse and naturally,
the things that people startthinking about are red flags or
(01:21):
what questions should I ask.
But conflicts are usually oneof the last things that come to
mind.
And even when we do think aboutconflicts, it's always in the
context of well, you guys willjust figure it out, don't worry
about it.
So how often do you seemarriages falling apart because
of poor conflict management?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, that's a bit of a loaded question and when I
was reflecting on kind of how toanswer this, it's like a whole
can of worms that I could open.
But to briefly answer it, Iwould say in therapy sessions
the most common issue that Ideal with in couples is conflict
management.
So it's there, it's common,even if it's not talked about.
(02:01):
And are you guys familiar withsomething called the Four
Horsemen of the Apocalypse?
Yeah, the Gottman.
Yes, yeah, so you'll noticeI'll quote Gottman a lot because
he's in the US.
He's known as the father ofmarriage therapy.
So one of them is Stonewallingright Mashallah you guys don't
need me here.
Yes, stonewalling is one of them.
(02:22):
He has this cool thing calledLove Lab where he brings in
couples and he watches how theyinteract and from there he kind
of can guess the outcome of therelationship.
Now, obviously, relationshipsare not that black and white,
but he's pretty confident, basedon his studies that the way
couples fight, he says he canguess with 80% certainty if a
(02:45):
relationship ends or not, and sohis research shows that there's
four things that lead toconflict.
When it's when conflict is notbeing managed, that it can lead
to four things.
So stonewalling is one of them,defensiveness is one, and
that's often coupled withcriticism.
So often we're criticized andthen the person that responds is
(03:05):
defensive.
So defensive, criticism,contempt, and then, yes,
stonewalling state, the one thatyou mentioned and that over
time basically kills connectionand so relationships or
marriages might end because twopeople decide to go their
separate ways or they mightstill be together and there's
actually there's no connection,right?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
um, yeah, okay, so two follow-up questions first,
if you can elaborate about thedifference between conflict
resolution and conflictmanagement, and the second one
is if you can elaborate on eachone of these, these four factors
the four like like the contempt, criticism and defensiveness.
Yeah, like how do they manifest?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yes, yeah, they manifest when we have issues and
we talk about it and we're notresolving anything.
Resolving doesn't have to meanwe have a perfect solution where
both people are happy.
In fact, I think gotman is oneof the people that says there's
differences in marriage, um, andlots of differences, and we
(04:09):
might never get to a point ofresolution.
It's just learning how to livewith the differences.
So if, um, let me just give theexample of um this kind of
happens, uh with with men as, uh, you know, if they come home
from work, they kind of puttheir socks on the floor and the
wife is like you know, pleaseremove your socks, please clean
the counter, and it happens.
I know someone.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I know someone who does that.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
I'm not gonna say who .
So, day after day, if you'relike, please pick up your socks,
please pick up your socks, andif it's not being resolved, one.
What Gottman says is thateventually it leads to the four
horsemen.
And when the four horsemen isthere, that's when it's
basically signifying the day ofjudgment or the end of the
relationship or the end ofconnection, right?
(04:54):
So it's pretty scary and myintention is not to overwhelm
people, but just to be goodabout being vigilant.
And when I do couplescounseling, I always we go
through the four horsemen and Iask you know, what are you
seeing and what are each of youdoing to contribute to the four
horsemen?
Right, because it's easy to belike, oh my God, like he's very
critical of me.
(05:14):
Okay, what role are you playingin that dynamic?
Yeah, so that's a little bitabout the four horsemen.
And then there's ways ofgetting around the horsemen.
I can answer that now if youwant more details, or but you
can answer the two question youasked about resolution and
management.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, do that please Sure.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
So yeah, so to kind of build some hopes that it's
not kind of end of the world,thinking he has the those four
horsemen, but then he hassomething called the antidote to
the four horsemen, right.
So he says if you are, contemptis one of them.
So contempt is more.
I would say of the fourhorsemen, that's the most
(05:57):
dangerous one and what it lookslike is disrespect.
It looks like this feeling ofsuperiority and it, what it
communicates is like disgustwhen you're like really looking
down on the person, and contempt.
We don't start with contempttowards another.
It builds up, like I said, overtime.
So the antidote to contempt isyou build a culture of
(06:18):
appreciation, so you start tofocus on the positive qualities
of your partner and you payattention to those and you name
it as well.
So that's the antidote isbuilding a culture of
appreciation.
And contempt is not somethingyou say, it's also in your body
language.
So one of the most commonexamples is you know when
(06:38):
they're speaking, you're kind ofrolling your eyes, you're kind
of checking out when they'retrying to be vulnerable, things
like that.
Yeah, so that's the contemptFor criticism.
The opposite of it is softstartup.
So Gottman in his lab.
(06:58):
He looks at how a conflictbegins and he can guess, based
on how it begins to, how it'sgoing to end.
Right, so just a gentle startup.
And that's where you hear thevery common like use I language,
you know, don't say you neverpick up your socks, it's you
know, I feel like I don't matter.
This is a very generic example.
(07:20):
Obviously, when conflict ishappening it's much more
complicated generic example.
Obviously, when conflict ishappening, it's much more
complicated, um, but you try tomake it about you, um and your
feeling, as opposed tocriticizing the person and
generalizing about theircharacter and and all that stuff
.
Yeah, um, so that was contempt.
We went through stonewalling, oh, stonewalling we didn't go
(07:40):
through.
That's the other oneStonewalling.
It's pretty self-explanatorywhat it is.
What practically it would looklike is one person just kind of
withdraws, and it can happen forhours.
Sometimes it can happen fordays.
I've worked with couples whereit can happen for weeks, where
one person is just really,really upset and so they just
(08:03):
they withdraw, they shut down,they disconnect.
Often what happens when we'restonewalling is the conflict
feels so much like we're justfeeling overwhelmed and so the
only way we can cope in thatmoment is to step away.
There's nothing wrong with that.
I think stonewalling gets likea bad reputation when we choose
to step away and disconnect.
And when I do couplescounseling, we always talk about
(08:25):
how can we safely disconnectand disengage where the other
person knows I'm not goinganywhere.
I still love you, but I need myspace.
So the opposite of stonewallingis you have to learn how to
self-regulate so that whenyou're in the middle of conflict
and you're really, reallyuncomfortable and all you want
to do is run away and hide um,you, what, what?
(08:48):
What we call is you have toself-soothe.
So, in the same way that youcomfort and calm down a baby,
you have to learn how toself-soothe where you're like
I'm okay, you know we're good,um, and know your limit, like
you're going to reach a pointwhere you're going to that
coping method is going to kickin and you're going to run, but
try to stay present.
Maybe for the conflict that'snot as overwhelming.
(09:09):
Yeah, so that's a little bitabout that.
What would you imagine theopposite of defensiveness is?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
That's a good question.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
That's a good one.
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yeah, so it's taking responsibility, oh okay, yeah,
yeah, yeah okay, I think it'sstill too early for us.
it's not easy to do, but tryingto hear what the other person
has to say to be like wherethere might be some truth in the
thing that's impacting them.
So it's not easy to do in thatmoment.
That's why a lot of, I think,couples work is learning to sit
(09:49):
in that discomfort and trying tostay in the fact that we're a
team, as opposed to it's youversus me.
And that's what can happen whenwe have conflict that's ongoing
, that's not resolved, itbecomes me versus you and as
opposed to we're here in thistogether, we're struggling and
(10:09):
we don't know how to resolve it,which that creates more of a
culture of empathy and givingeach other benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, so what I found is Ihaven't found, but what research
has found is that criticism anddefensiveness kind of go hand
in hand.
So usually you'll have onepartner that's a bit more
critical.
Over time the other personbecomes very defensive and then,
(10:33):
when that's not resolved, itcan lead to more stonewalling
and then eventually, contempt,which is, once contempt is there
, then that's when yeah, it'sserious, like we need to step in
and do some surgery.
It's no longer, you know, let'sjust be patient with each other
and talk it out.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
So, speaking of just before youask your questions, because I
have a feeling I know whatyou're going to ask, but
yesterday I was having coffeewith a friend and we were
talking about, like differencesbetween men and women and
criticism in particular.
So I was telling her that, likeprior to getting married or in
the first stages of marriage,like I didn't know that men and
(11:08):
women handle criticismdifferently, like I would
criticize a lot of things,thinking that, like this is how
we improve, this is how we grow,and I didn't know that men take
criticism sometimes asundermining.
So is there a truth to that oris this just an individual
experience?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
So I kind of stay away from being like this is a
men thing, this is a women thingand this is how men receive.
I found when I've done couplescounseling that every couple is
unique.
In EFT, which is amotion-focused therapy model, my
job becomes whichever coupleI'm seeing that I'm mapping out
their unique dynamic a couple,I'm seeing that I'm mapping out
(11:47):
their unique dynamic.
So there might be a men-womenthing.
I don't have knowledge of that.
For me, what it looks like isfor each people to focus on
their own relationship, and thephrase we use in sessions is how
are things received?
How do things land?
When I said what I said, whatwas my intent, what did I mean
when I say that and how did itland?
And so you can say somethingthat from your background, from
(12:11):
your life story, from yourfamily of origin, it might be
really kind and really helpful.
And then the other person, theway it lands for them, it's like
that was really mean, what youjust said, right, and that can
happen either way, from men towomen, women to men.
So a lot of, especially in thefirst few years of the
relationship, it's learningabout each other, learning about
(12:31):
each other's history, learningabout each other's communication
styles, right?
So I'll give an example is Icome from a family where we're
non-confrontational, we don'traise our voices, and and so for
me, I know that when someonespeaks to me in a raised voice
or like a certain kind of tone,I have a reaction, right, even
(12:53):
if the other person is verywell-meaning.
It's just how.
It's how I react.
So it's about a lot of it comesdown to self-awareness
self-awareness and then buildingawareness of your partner, and
then in time, inshallah, yearsfrom now, you could be like, yep
, you could look back and belike I could see why that didn't
land very well, right?
(13:15):
And that's tied directly tocommunication strengthening and
building communication skills,which is linked to conflict
management, right, the two gohand in hand, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
So, to bring it back to singlehood, I wanted to
actually go back to the fourhorsemen and ask you how do
these things?
Or is there a way for people tobe self-aware and look out for
these things prior to marriage,so that people can get mentally
(13:45):
ready for marriage, in a sense?
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yes, you can do your homework.
You can take time getting toknow the person.
I guess there's two ways ofanswering this.
Part of it is doing yourhomework, where you get to know
the person.
You ask questions.
Part of your questions can belike how do you handle conflict?
And sometimes people know howto give the right answer.
(14:10):
It could be also when conflictcomes up in the getting to know
phase.
So the earlier question wassaying that we don't really ask
about conflict management.
Whether we ask about it or not,it shows up when we're getting
to know.
So, as bumps come up, how doesthe other person handle it?
How is their emotionalreactivity?
What is their dynamic withtheir family like?
(14:30):
And I know not everyone'sfamily represents kind of how
they do things, but what aretheir boundaries like, things
like that.
So you kind of do your homeworkin that aspect and to do that,
by the way, requires you doingyour own work, because you need
to have the awareness to pick upon those things.
So I always say a lot ofpreparing for marriage and
preparing for having children isyou do the work on yourself,
(14:52):
you build that self-awarenessand then eventually I think in
any situation when you'regetting to know someone.
At the end of the day, it's aleap of faith that you take when
you decide okay, this is theperson that I'm going to kind of
share my life with.
We see how it goes.
You pray istikhara, you makedua, you hope for the best, and
then marriage comes after.
(15:17):
And to answer your question, Ithink sometimes, when it comes
to conflict, our approachbecomes okay, how do we avoid
conflict?
Like, how can we have our listchecked so that we don't have to
get to that place?
Right?
And I would say that that'smore of a problematic question
because it's, I think, I havemore of an issue with the
problem because it looks atconflict more from a place of
like fear as opposed to it's anormal thing.
(15:38):
It's going to happen, no matterhow much you love each other.
Love is not enough to avoidconflict.
Knowing that it's going tohappen, knowing that there's
days we're going to feel reallyconnected and other days we
might not like each other thatmuch, how do we move forward?
Right?
So then it becomes about.
We can talk more about it lateron.
(15:59):
I'm kind of going to adifferent topic, which is
instead of how do we create thesystem where we have our what,
the i's dotted and the t'scrossed so we don't get to that
place.
How do we, how do we stayvigilant and have a really good
repair process so that when wedo have fights, when we feel
disconnected, we know what to do, do as a team to kind of move
through that?
Speaker 2 (16:20):
That's a good point you brought up, because you know
some couples brag about neverfighting and we just have the
perfect marriage and everythingis just hunky-dory and that's
sometimes seen as the idea.
But no conflict, I'm assuming,is a bad thing.
Right, it could be a red flagin disguise, correct?
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah, there might be some miraculous couple where
they don't have fights, I'massuming, is a bad thing, right,
it could be a red flag indisguise, correct?
Yeah, there might be somemiraculous couple where they
don't have fights.
So I don't want to just be likeno conflict is everywhere.
Realistically, from having beenmarried and having working with
clients, yes, conflict exists.
But again, I think it's theissue with that thing of like,
oh, we never have conflict ishow you're viewing conflict, is
(16:57):
you're seeing conflict as a badthing, and maybe there's an
assumption that if we haveconflict, that it erodes the
connection.
But in fact, like there's, whenyou have conflict, it means you
care for the relationship, youcare for one another, and that
process of going through ittogether, feeling disconnected,
repairing can actually increaseconnection.
(17:18):
So a lack of conflict is notnecessarily a great thing for
the connection, right.
And I think that's where peoplewould be like yeah, yeah, we
were good, we don't haveconflict.
That might not be a bad thing.
That might not be a good thingeven if you don't have conflict.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Because things might be building up in the background
right.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Yes, yeah.
So in the cases where you needto have conflict but you're
avoiding conflict, yeah, that'sthe case.
So I've dealt with coupleswhere it's like and even in my
own life, like, depending on theday that I'm going through,
where I just don't have thecapacity or the energy or the
other person might not to belike let's have a conversation
about this, let's talk aboutthis, let's talk about this.
I'm just going to be like I'mfine, I'm good, right, but if I
(17:57):
do that long term, that's wherewe move towards the four
horsemen.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, Okay.
Now, two people can havecompletely different conflict
styles.
One could be like you mentionedbefore they need space, they
need some time.
And the other one could be likeno, we need to figure this out
immediately and not let it likenot even go to sleep without
resolving this conflict.
So when you have two peoplewith different styles like this,
(18:24):
how do you handle this?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, one thing I always have to remind couples is
difference is not a bad thing.
So sometimes couples will comein and be like I don't, like
we're, I'm really scared we'reso different, like are things
going to end between us?
And they'll list a list ofthings that where they're
different.
So I just want to kind ofreframe to challenge the framing
of the question.
Difference is not a bad thing,it's just again, it's going back
(18:49):
to what we talked about earlierwhat is your unique couple map
as a couple, and how do weaddress that?
So in EFT, which is a commonmodel for couples, what we would
do is if you two were to comein and see me, I would say, okay
, let's name a conflict that yourecently had.
How did it start?
How did each of you react?
(19:09):
What happened in the end?
Were you able to resolve?
Did you talk about it the nextday?
What was going on?
And so with the emotion focusedtherapy model, they actually
have kind of templates of commondynamics that they found with
couples.
So one of the most common onesthat I see like 80% of the time
(19:30):
and that I even kind ofpersonally experienced in my own
marriage, is you have thepursuer withdraw.
And so during conflict, youhave one person that's pursuing,
that's like no, no, no, like wehave to resolve this right now,
we can't go to bed angry, let'stalk about it, and they're just
, they're restless, and they'renot okay.
And then the other person isthe withdrawer.
And then they kind of check out.
(19:50):
And I would say again, likesome people ask oh, do men fit
more in one?
Do women fit more in the other?
I've seen a bit more where menare withdrawing.
Women tend to be pursuers.
But even in my own marriage Ican be the withdrawer a little
bit sometimes too.
So I don't want to generalizefor, let's say, years of let's
(20:18):
solve this and they just gettired.
Then you have the burnt outpursuer.
Yeah, you have the burnt outpursuer who's like yep, I don't
care, right.
So then it might lead the otherperson to be like, well, wait,
let's talk.
What just happened, right?
So, yeah.
So what happens is you want tofigure out your unique map.
It's not always as simple asyou fit in this box, I fit in
this box.
But how do we then, as a couple, address these differences?
(20:40):
And if you fit in thepursuer-withdrawer category,
there's a really cool activitycalled timeout where, let's say,
you get to, you're trying tofigure something out, you're not
, it's not being resolved.
You're both getting reallyfrustrated.
The person who's the withdraweris like I need some space.
Then the pursuer has to respectthat and so we call timeout.
(21:00):
Timeout can be one hour, it canbe half a day, sometimes it can
be 24 hours.
The timeout happens with thepromise that the person who's
withdrawing comes back, and thenwe have a discussion, because
what happens with the withdraweris they kind of leave and then
we never actually talk aboutwhat happened, and that's where
the pursuer is now.
It's not fair for the pursuerbecause they're like you know,
(21:21):
when are we going to talk aboutwhat happened?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Does that answer the question?
Yeah, yeah, I like thistechnique because, like, instead
of thinking the withdrawer isjust gone indefinitely and like
the other person is feelinganxious Okay, what's going to
happen?
Are we going to talk about it?
Like this sets like anexpectation.
I like that.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
And one thing I'll add is that sometimes when we
look at relationships or whenwe're following social media, we
can get into the pattern of oh,I have like an avoidant husband
, or I married a narcissist.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
And sometimes that would start labeling each other.
Yes, so.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
I don't want to dismiss that that that does
happen.
Often.
From my experience, what I'veseen is you have two people that
are trying to make thisrelationship work that aren't
always doing it the right way.
That's also bringing in theirown family history of trauma.
So not trauma, sorry, their ownhistory, family dynamics,
things like that.
So we're all coping indifferent ways when we're
(22:15):
activated and so, and sometimesthose ways that we're coping
coping in different ways whenwe're activated and so, and
sometimes those ways that we'recoping is not productive to the
relationship.
So it's just about okay.
What are my coping strategies?
How is it productive to therelationship?
Does it feed connection ordisconnection?
And how do we each need to holdeach other so that we're coping
in a better way that promotesconnection, as opposed to?
(22:37):
I'm super activated.
I'm going to do what I need todo to feel relief, whether it's
I have to pursue you till weresolve this, or I'm going to
check out.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Okay.
Well, a single Muslim listeningto this might feel marriage is
a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Like is it really worth?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
it.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yeah, is that your question for me?
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I don't know if that's a question or just an
observation.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I think what she's trying to ask is how do we
relieve the single guy or girland uh, and just put them at
ease and and give them tools toget them ready?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
well, like it always comes back to having faith in
Allah, making lots of dua.
Everything that happens is goodfor us.
So I'm not meaning to scarepeople away.
We also shouldn't take marriagelightly.
It's not a joke.
In Islam, it's considered anact of worship.
So what I would say is it takeseffort, it takes intentionality
(23:33):
, and so that's why you have todo your homework and you have to
take your time.
Sometimes, you know, when wewatch, like, Bollywood movies,
right, we kind of expect thatit's going to be butterflies,
and it's like we're focusingmore on the chemistry side of
things, and so we have torealize that we're two human
beings trying to come togetherand build a life.
(23:53):
Eventually inshallah, if Allahplans raising kids, all of those
things.
So I don't think it's a badthing to be scared a little bit
If that's going to help usbecome more intentional.
But also, yeah, like and I'msure you two can name a few
things that you know marriage isa blessing.
That, like, even with myhusband, for example, like the
(24:14):
fact that we pray together, Likethat to me is incredible.
You know, the fact that I havesomeone now that I can go to and
talk about my feelings, Right.
So I guess, because we'refocusing on conflict management,
we're not focusing on you knowthe amazing parts of it.
This is also just as important,though.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And to add to that, you know we sometimes forget
that the Prophet had maritaldisputes, right Like even his
marriage wasn't perfect in thatregard, because he had wives
that had different personalities.
So you know, given yourbackground in Islamic psychology
, what does conflict resolutionlook like in Islamic context?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, so that's a.
It's a very big questionBecause I think to answer, how
does Islam look at conflictresolution?
We have to look at Islam as alifestyle right, and so what is
the difference between Islamicpsychology?
What you know, how does Westernpsychology view things?
And so I'm going to try to kindof keep my thoughts clear.
(25:18):
One of the main differences,without going too much into
philosophy and, yeah, because Iknow we're focusing on conflict
management one of the biggestdifferences between Islamic
psychology and Westernpsychology is that Western
psychology looks at freedom ofthe self.
This is what I learned when Istudied Islamic psychology.
Islamic psychology looks atfreedom, of freedom from the
(25:38):
self.
Yeah, I'm gonna give us give youa sec for that to settle, yeah,
yeah yeah, there's a differencebetween the two, right?
Yeah, absolutely yeah,interesting yeah, how do you
think that difference wouldimpact marriage or how we
approach marriage, like if youwere to take a guess.
Zaid, can I take a guess?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I have an idea Go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Okay, Western psychology is more like
self-centered how to like notget the upper hand, but how like
it's all about you.
But Islamic psychology is howto free yourself from your ego,
from your desires, fromeverything that's negative.
Is that close?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Yeah, that's part of it, soyou're in the right direction.
Okay, zaid, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I was thinking the same thing.
Like one sounds morenarcissistic and the other one
sounds more selfless.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yes, yeah, and I think it's not meant to put down
Western psychology, or ifanyone listens to this, they're
like, well, I'm not seeing atherapist, you know, because
they're putting these kinds ofvalues.
No, no, there's nothing wrongwith looking out for yourself
and taking care of yourself andself-preservation.
I think it kind of and I'm sureyou see it on social media and
(26:56):
in the culture that we're movingtowards, where it's freedom of
the self, looks at me, myboundaries, qualities about
myself that I need to work on,that I need to improve on.
And so, islamically, our lifeshould be this constant process
(27:34):
of working on our heart,strengthening those weaknesses,
and a marriage is a beautifultool for that, because you can
help each other with that.
There's a positive twist there,um, yeah, so I think part one
part of marriage is it requiresa lot of selflessness.
Um, sometimes it requires beingpatient with the other person,
um, even if you feel like, yep,I've been wronged, you know.
Obviously I want to make itclear that in cases of abuse and
(27:55):
stuff like that, uh, that's awhole different discussion.
But when you have two peoplethat are trying, they're not
always figuring it out.
Sometimes they're at astandstill.
There's disconnection.
Part of the patience.
There's values within Islamthat can help us get through
that, which is forgiveness,compassion, patience towards one
another, compassion, patiencetowards one another.
(28:16):
And the beautiful thing is, inIslamic psychology, it's not
just me and you working together, it's me and you, anchored in
this faith called Islam and thisLord that we both believe in.
Hopefully, we both pray toSahara, you know, before making
that decision to be with eachother.
So we move from me versus youto us to now us and Allah, and
(28:40):
we are accountable to him and wehave to answer to him.
So how do I do?
Right by my spouse?
Yeah, so that's one other thing.
Making lots of dua, I think wehave access to that.
One thing that's reallyinteresting, that never came up
in my training in Westernpsychology, is shaitan, right.
So one of the things we knowshaitan loves is when he creates
(29:03):
disconnection between spouses.
Yeah, right, so we seekprotection from shaitan, like we
should be doing that daily.
I don't know even more thandaily, if you want, daily, I
don't know, even more than daily, if you want.
But there's that peace and thatI wanted to bring some examples
to just humanize the Prophetpeace be upon him and then also
(29:25):
Aisha Radila and, I think, zaid.
You mentioned an example whereyou said in the question that
you asked, you said that theSahabas, I think, showed
emotions.
I don't know if I remember thatcorrectly.
I was talking about how thewives had different
personalities, oh okay okay,yeah so I don't know too much
about the wives and theirpersonalities, but, um, I'll
focus on aisha and there's one,that story that I heard that
(29:48):
always sticks with me, um, so,and I don't know if you guys
have heard of it, so, um, thestory is that it was her time,
um, with uh problem peace beupon him.
And I think one of the otherwives sent over some food and so
she kind of, yeah, okay.
No but do tell it, please.
Yeah, so I think she gotannoyed because it was her time
(30:10):
with him, and so even justanother wife bringing over food
annoyed her and she threw theplate over and the plate broke
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Like, imagine that and the prophet had guests, so
she did this in front of guestsas well.
I didn't know that part.
Yeah, and, and she was also shewas also known to be a bad cook
, so she took it as like apersonal attack.
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
There's many layers that we can, but look at that
Like she.
Yeah, there's many layers thatwe can, but look at that like
she.
It's aisha radhi olan, like the, the woman that recorded so
many hadiths that we now use.
She threw a plate.
It broke.
She was jealous that the, the,the term we would use.
The clinical term is she wasdysregulated, right, um.
So she's a human being withemotions.
And she wasn't saying, oh, Ifeel upset right now, right,
(30:58):
like where sometimes we expecteach other to do that in the
heat of the moment, that youshould still be able to talk to
me properly, and it's no.
Her emotions took over, um.
So that's one example I wantedto use.
Another one is not reallyrelated to marriage, but, uh,
the prophet peace be upon himwhen his son died, uh is when
his son, ibrahim, as died, um,started to cry, and so the
(31:19):
Sahabas were like.
One of the Sahabas said oh,prophet, even you cry.
And I wrote down what he said.
He said the eyes shed tears andthe heart feels sorrow, but we
do not say except that whichpleases Allah.
Indeed, we are saddened by yourdeparture, o Ibrahim.
So I use that as an example,even in individual sessions, to
(31:40):
say that, like he literally says, the eyes shed tears and the
heart feels sorrow, so it's likethe eyes are doing their own
thing, right?
That's in somatic therapy,which is we look at the body and
how the body responds andreacts.
Like this is emotions and it'sokay.
Like this is emotions and it'sokay.
And there's tears and it's nota sign of, you know,
ungratefulness, but that thesethings happen and we have
(32:05):
reactions.
And then the last example thatalways comes to mind that will
help answer the question thatyou had asked Zaid, was when
Aisha Radiyohan asked theProphet peace be upon him, you
know about his love for her andhe said it's like a strong
binding knot.
I don't know if you've heard ofthat.
That's a common one, I guess.
Yeah, um, and then every oncein a while, she would ask him
how is the knot?
And he would say as strong asthe first day you I don't know
(32:27):
if it's as the first day youasked or the first day they were
together.
That part I'm not sure about,um.
So this is an example of twopeople that are attuned, um,
that there's clearly betweenthem closeness, affection,
respect, um, attachment, um, and, and this is the example we're
supposed to um, cause he is thebest example that we're supposed
(32:50):
to work towards.
Um, that we're supposed to umand it's an inside kind of thing
.
I was.
I was gonna say inside joke.
It's not a joke, but it's thisinside thing that they have that
connects them together.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
If you're overwhelmed and burdened and just don't
know where to seek help, let ushelp you.
We can be your personalmatchmakers.
Visit us at halalmatchca andbook a free call with us.
The thing that stands out to mein the example of um the second
example you gave, uh when theprophet sallallahu alayhi wa
(33:21):
sallam son passed away is that,even in the heat of the moment,
he was uh setting boundariesright.
That even then, you don't saythings displease allah.
Right and I believe there'salso a verse in the quran about
that that no matter how badthings get, there are still
boundaries that you don't cross.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Yes.
So our hope is that and this isthe best example that we're
trying to follow and we'retrying to emulate that and our
hope is that, even in moments ofintense dysregulation, that we
have some level oflevel-headedness where our
emotions show up and we try notto cross those certain lines.
What I would say is that therewill be times, because he is the
(33:59):
best example, we're supposed tofollow him.
We are not him.
Is that you might?
There might be times when youmight not, you might not name
that boundary, or you might sayor do something, depending on
you know what the trigger was orwhat happened that led to the
conflict that boundaries mightbe crossed, you might forget the
boundary.
And that's where it's okay.
It's not the end of the world.
We're not focusing on notmaking mistakes, we're focusing
(34:21):
on the repair process.
And so once, like, if we have areally and John Gottman talks
about that, he says that thebest, but from his research on
the love labs, the happiestcouples sometimes have screaming
matches.
Really, that's hard to believe,right?
Yeah, they have screamingmatches, but they're happy,
connected couples.
So when that happens, it's okay.
(34:42):
It's not the end of the world.
Both of you, like, we need tobreathe, take some space and
then we're going to come backand repair.
Right, the word for that?
What I would say with clients issecurity.
Right, that, as couples, weneed to work towards building
security in our marriage.
Right, if we have conflict, wehave screaming matches.
I'm not trying to normalizescreaming matches.
I'm saying it will happen andit's okay.
(35:03):
It's not the end of the world,but the idea is, as you get
better at handling conflict, asyou get better at your repair
process, you build security.
Security means you know it'sgoing to be.
We're going to have good days,we're going to have bad days,
but I know you're here for meand I'm here for you.
When a marriage lacks security,it's more like oh crap, we just
had a fight.
(35:23):
Is he going to leave me or do Ineed to run away?
Do I need to leave?
Did I make the wrong decision?
And, by the way, in the firstfew years of marriage, it takes
time to build security.
So those are normal thoughtsthat can happen, because
security doesn't happenovernight.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Interesting, interesting.
So two questions.
I'll just start with the one,not to confuse you.
How can we train ourselves notto bring old conflicts and like,
oh, remember three years, 15days ago you said this, or
remember when you said this tome?
And sometimes it happensunintentionally.
(35:58):
And even if we were able toresolve the conflict, sometimes
some things just remain.
So how can we, like, get rid ofthis?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
yeah, free ourselves from the baggage package it's
usually women that get thatreputation that you brought up
something three years ago.
I didn't say it, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Yeah.
So the hope is we don't want toget to a point where things
have built up for years andyears and years, right?
This is why we need so mucheducation for couples when it's
premarital, so that they havetools and resources to do their
homework when they're choosing aspouse and that, once you're
married, it's okay.
It's still not the end of theworld.
How do we get more tools sothat we're really good at
handling conflict management?
Yeah, so what I would say isdon't let it build up over years
(36:48):
.
Part of it, too, is as there'stwo pieces to it.
Part of it as you get to knoweach other and as you learn
about each other.
John Gottman says that there'scertain differences that you're
not going to be able to everresolve, and so it's about kind
of.
Part of it is accepting certainflaws in our partner, and you
have to take accountability overthat of you know, I wish he was
(37:09):
different in this way, but he'sreally not.
And you know, do I want toleave or do I want to make this
work?
If I'm going to this work, thenI need to maybe stop trying to
change this one thing.
I guess it depends on the thingas well.
You might decide, nope, this isgoing to drive me crazy.
And that's one of the thingsfor researchers that look at
relationships from aproblem-focused lens is choose
(37:31):
your partner based on theproblems that you can't handle
the problems that are going todrive you crazy.
So if you're very protective ofmoney and you want to save
every penny and you're very, youknow, intentional about where
your money goes, and you'retalking to someone who's you
know just doesn't save, doesn'tbudget, that's probably not the
(37:51):
best person for you to get toknow further, right for you to
get to know further, right?
So that opens up a whole otherquestion of things, differences
that we need to look out for.
So religion is one thing weneed to assess, for Money is
another one.
Children do they want to havechildren, do they not?
If you want to have kids andthey don't, you're not going to.
(38:14):
Don't marry this personthinking you're going to
convince them to have children,because it's going to build
resentment, right?
Don't marry this personthinking you're going to
convince them to have childrenbecause it's going to build
resentment, right?
What are views about in-laws?
How often are we expected tovisit them?
If issues come up with in-laws,how do we handle it as a couple
, right?
What are boundaries that areimportant to you?
Is the other person on the samepage?
Those things, hopefully,ideally, you want to get to know
(38:35):
before you make a decision tomarry that person.
Once you're married and you'redealing with those issues, it's
not the end of the world.
You know we still make lots ofdua.
It happened, it was meant to bethings like that, but then I
guess your question kind of asksabout that.
So acceptance is one piece Ifyou're already married and
you're like, ok, like, is thissomething I can accept.
(38:56):
Acceptance is one piece.
If you're already married andyou're like, ok, like, is this
something I can accept, thathelps with preventing build up a
resentment over time, right.
And then another thing,especially if these things have
accumulated over time, isnarrative, right.
Narrative therapy model is a bigmodel that lots of therapists
get trained in, and narrativetherapy just looks at life as
stories.
What are the stories that I sayabout myself, what are the
(39:18):
stories that I've internalizedabout my partner, my family, the
stranger down the street?
And so you have to beintentional about looking at
your marriage and what are thestories that you're telling
yourself about the other person?
And is it leading to connectionor disconnection?
And if we bring within ourfaith kind of paradigm you know
(39:39):
we believe in shaitan how doesshaitan kind of affect the
framing that happens duringconflict about how we see our
partner?
And so in that case we need toreframe, right?
Am I moving in a place whereI've internalized all these
stories about my partner that'sleading to disconnection?
(40:00):
How do we reframe?
Sometimes you can't do it onyour own, sometimes you need,
you know, couples counselingthings like that.
Yeah, that's where I wouldstart.
Does that answer your question?
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah, and, more Honestly, every time you answer
a question, more questions comeup.
The topic is so vast that it'syeah, to answer with one or two.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they hope I'mnot hoarding the conversation,
yeah, um, well, god remember.
I said I have two questions,now they became three, okay, so,
(40:32):
oh, my god, okay, I.
I think that um, a lot of times, like like, of course, we're
all Muslims, we know what webelieve in, what we don't
believe in, but, like in themoment, in the heat of the
moment, a lot of these thingsbecome more like hypothetical or
, like I did, like even, likeyou said, shaitan, like we
realize, shaitan is an entityand, like you said, like there's
(40:55):
a hadith where the prophet saidif someone's angry and they're
standing, sit down.
If they're sitting down you'reangry, then lay down because,
like, shaitan is just fueling it.
But when we're in the heat ofthe moment, all these things
become like I don't know.
Yes, not practical anymore.
How can we actually internalizethis and bring it into our
(41:18):
conflicts?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Yes, so I don't know how much to answer that from an
Islamic lens, but from mytraining as a trauma therapist
depending on how heated theconflict is getting research
shows that there's a point where, when our emotions are to such
an intensity, the prefrontalcortex which is the part of the
(41:39):
brain that focuses on meaning,making, problem solving,
abstract thinking, reflectingthat goes offline.
Yeah, so that's why, when we'reat that level, when you tell
someone calm down, be gratefulto Allah, when you start
lecturing them, that's goingover their head Right to Allah.
(42:00):
When you start lecturing them,that's going over their head
right.
In those moments you can'texpect yourself and the other
person to stay grounded andlogical and respect your
boundaries.
That is an unrealistic, unfairexpectation.
When we get to that point ofintensity, both people should
know that we shouldn't beengaging further with each other
.
We need to step away Becauseonce you get to a level of
intensity, you can problem solvefor hours and hours and hours.
(42:23):
You're not going to getanywhere.
Probably you'll make thingsworse because your emotions are
in the driver's seat and I'veheard from couples they'll say,
yeah, we had a fight and thenfor four hours that day we
talked about it and I'm like no,don't do that.
So there is such a thing wherethere's a line, when that's
crossed, logic kind of goes outthe window.
And so it's not about how do Istay logical at that point, it's
(42:46):
what do I need to do, knowingthat logic has gone out the
window and we need to step back,decompress, take some time and
then come back and re-engage.
The work you, both of you, haveto do is about that building
that self-awareness andawareness of one another to say
how do I know I'm moving in thatdirection and it can be, let's
say, for both of you could be.
(43:07):
I didn't sleep well the nightbefore, I haven't eaten, I
haven't been outside, I haven'tmoved around.
You know I had issues withfamily that come up.
Work was stressful and so ifyour cup is empty and you're
moving in that direction andthen one of you says or does
something that kind of adds tothat, and then you explode.
Building that self-awarenessmeans how do I know that, oh, I
(43:28):
or my partner are moving in thatdirection?
How do we take a step backbefore we even get there in the
first place?
Probably on those days whenwe're the clinical term for it
is when our window is small.
On those days when our windowis small and we can tell one or
both of us is really out of it,probably those are not the best
days to be having seriousconversations, trying to make
big decisions, and so it's up toeach person to communicate hey,
(43:52):
I think today I'm not well, andfor the other person to respect
that and say, okay, let's takea step back, let's check in with
each other again.
So it requires a lot ofcheck-in and those check-ins are
what's going to get in the wayof the narrative, of the framing
right.
So if you tell your partner,hey, today's not a good day,
like I'm not doing, well, youknow, maybe you can take care of
(44:13):
dinner I don't know what itmight look like and your partner
knows, then they're like, oh,she's just, she's not okay today
, and I'm gonna remember that.
Versus wow, she's being cold tome today, she's ignoring me,
she didn't even bother makingdinner, right?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
yeah, yeah, subhanallah.
I'm just baffled right nowbecause when you said that
there's a part of the brain thatstops like functioning normally
when you get to that level oflike anger, it just reminded me
that, subhanallah, like in oursharia, when a divorce, like a
talaq, happens in that kind ofmoment, it's not, um, like it
(44:50):
doesn't.
Actually it doesn't happen likesubhanallah, because, like you
said, like allah, like you're ata stage where you can't think
clearly.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
That's, that's amazing, and I want to add,
because now your point is makingme add more, so I think we're
going to be here for a few hours.
When I studied Islamicpsychology, islam in itself is a
form of healing, islam initself is a form of therapy.
And the way that Allah hasordained for us to go make wudu,
(45:19):
to pray five times a day whenwe can, those are all meant to
kind of serve as release, right,as moments when we step back,
when we breathe, as opposed tojust kind of running, running,
running and doing the rat raceof life.
Right, I was in a therapytraining where, for the DBT
model, where they were sayingyeah, when you're really heated
and you want to yell, go to thewashroom and wash your face with
cold water.
And they said put cold waterfrom your hands all the way to
(45:41):
your elbows.
And I was sitting there and Iwas like yeah, I was like, wait,
it sounds like wudu, right.
So I don't need to go in andanalyze every act of worship in
Islam and say, how does it fitwith what Western therapy is
telling us, no, no, islamdoesn't need that.
Islam in itself is a form oftherapy.
So if we, you know, we make dua, we're intentional about
fulfilling those acts of worship.
(46:03):
It's going to help us in ourrelationships with ourselves, in
our marriage and in our abilityto regulate ourselves.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Absolutely beautiful, like the shaitan itself.
We know it.
It's made of heat, it's made offire.
So when you go make wudu, itputs like, puts off that heat
and that fire.
And like the prophet alaihisalam used, like if he got
anxious about something, he usedto run away to prayer.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Subhanallah, like I would really love if even us, on
a personal level, we startimplementing these, these
beautiful like practices yeah,yeah, and I just heard from a
friend we, uh, my husband and I,visited his cousins and we were
asking them because they'rethey've been married longer than
us.
We said what's your marriageadvice?
And he said go to allah beforeyou go to your husband.
Um, and it doesn't mean, likeyou know, avoid talking to
(46:52):
things with your husband, but itmeans, like, especially in
those moments where you'rereally upset, you're really
frustrated with the other personand you're like, why aren't
they hearing me?
You go to Allah, you complain,uh, you ask for his help, you,
you, you know, you name yourhelplessness, um, the hurt that
you're feeling, you cry if youneed to, you let it out, you
know, and then you come back andsay let's talk.
(47:13):
And so it's kind of like, ifyou imagine a pressure cooker,
you're releasing some of thatthrough, you know, talking to
Allah, and then you go back and,of course, allah, you know,
hears your duas, hears your pain, and he intervenes in whatever
way he thinks is best.
But, yeah, beautiful and thesorry once more that the go to
Allah before your husband.
That applies in allrelationships, not just when
(47:33):
you're married if you're singleand you looking go to Allah
before you go to your parentsand all those things.
Sorry, zaid.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
No, that's fine.
One of the few phrases I knowin Arabic is which means.
I hope I can translate that.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
I complain to Allah about you To the one and only
and imagine if you, instead ofdoing doing that, you went to
your parents or you know friendsand started playing right.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Like what would happen sometimes people just add
fuel to the fire.
Yeah, keeping a fire and heat,yeah, I think these beautiful
practices and practicalpractices because someone might
look at them and say, yeah, yeah, these things like okay, but
give me something practical, butthese are practical.
I think these practices arelike one of the things that
(48:22):
single Muslims can start likedeveloping and growing before
marriage.
There's a lot to do before youget married.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
Yeah, I would say build your relationship with
Allah, focus on your prayers.
Those are all ways that you'relearning how to self-regulate
and you know it's, you'reworking on your heart, and when
that happens and you meetsomeone else and you're building
a life with them, it's going tobe a lot easier.
It doesn't mean it's going tobe without issues, but Islam is
a resource, it's a tool that wecan draw from.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Any resources you can recommend to our single
listeners to prepare them.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
Anything, yeah.
So I quoted gotman a lot.
He has lots of uh, and I thinkit's his wife too.
They do research together, soit's john and julie gotman.
So I would go into uh, go toyoutube, look at the love labs.
Gary chapman is another one,where five love languages, um,
love tank, um, even learningabout attachment is important to
(49:21):
figure out.
You know, when it comes toconflict, are you an avoider?
Are you a little more of ananxious person where you're a
bit clingy?
None of that is bad.
It's just how do you need, whatare ways that you need to cope
on your own, and what would youneed from a partner?
And so, keeping that in mind,when you're getting to know
someone and I would say a lot ofit comes back to a lot of
(49:44):
relational work, I would say isdoing the work on yourself.
And the work never stops, evenwhen you're married.
You know the work continues.
But sometimes we get so focusedon finding that person that
we're not doing the work onourselves.
So do that.
We're not doing the work onourselves.
So do that.
Strengthen your relationshipwith Allah.
Work on being a better Muslim.
You don't have to be perfect.
Make lots of dua, ask Allah forhelp.
(50:07):
You know prayers are reallyimportant.
Start there, even if you're notdoing all five, but just show
up with some effort andsincerity and make lots of dua.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
So for single Muslims listening right now, who
haven't lived with a partner yet, some practical or three
practical things they can startdoing before marriage to get
better at conflict.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
So and I've probably sound like a broken radio, I've
said this a few times buildself-awareness, work on yourself
, know your strengths, know yourweaknesses.
Think about conflict.
How do you respond to conflict?
Are you someone that withdraws?
Are you a pursuer?
And look at your currentrelationships and yes, there's
(50:46):
some relationships that aretricky.
Things with family might becomplicated, there's no denying
of that.
But is there room in otherfriendships to practice, or even
within your family, those morekind of practicing those skills
communicating, strengtheningemotion, regulation, things like
that?
So you don't need to just buildthose skills with a partner,
(51:09):
you can practice those.
How do you set boundaries inyour single days, things like
that?
And then I would say getsupport if you need like that um
.
And then I would say getsupport if you need um.
When I was in cambridge and wewere studying uh, I'm studying
islamic psychology there Italked a little bit about the
window of tolerance and howsometimes we can get pushed out
of our capacity and how much wecan handle.
And I asked it was sheikh idriswatts.
(51:31):
I don't know if he's familiarto you guys.
I've heard the name.
Follow him on instagram.
He's really amazing.
He's a trauma therapist and hestudies the Quran, so he kind of
brings the two together, whichis amazing, yeah.
So I just asked him.
I said, okay, so the Westernkind of model of the window of
capacity there's a window andwe're kind of sometimes within
that window and then thingshappen in life that pushes us
(51:53):
out of our window, where I evennamed the prefrontal cortex,
goes offline.
Doesn't that mean that Allah isgiving us in that moment more
than we can handle?
And it's a question that I'mstill kind of asking.
Like I don't know all theanswers to, but he said
sometimes, when we're out of ourwindow and things feel really
hard, it might not be that Allahexpects us to carry more weight
(52:13):
or carry that burden.
Sometimes he expects us to askfor help and maybe we're just
trying too hard to figure it outon our own and we're stretching
ourselves more than Allah wantsus to stretch.
So getting support, asking forhelp, but also doing the same
thing when you're married aswell, and even asking with a
potential partner, you know, ifwe're struggling on our own,
(52:36):
maybe there's conflict, thatover time it's just getting
worse.
What would we do at that point?
Who would we ask for support?
Things like that okay.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Do you work with single muslims or just couples?
Yeah, I do.
Individual and couple okay.
And if someone would reach outto you and seek your services,
how would they do that?
Speaker 3 (52:55):
yeah, so um, the practice that I'm part of is
called Muslim Women's Wellness.
We're supporting Muslim Women'sWellness and we also offer
relational therapy if that'sneeded, because that is also
helping women in their wellness.
So it's calledmuslimwomenswellnesscom.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Okay, we will link that inshallah.
So you work exclusively withwomen?
Speaker 3 (53:15):
Yes, it's myself, and I have three other associates.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Okay, okay, awesome.
Wow, I hope we didn't.
Yeah, we didn't ask too many.
Honestly, I still have more.
Maybe we'll save that foranother interview.
Speaker 3 (53:32):
No worries, yeah, jazakallah khair, nice chatting
with you both, thank you so muchour, our beautiful listeners.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
We hope you took some homework to do yourself.
Don't wait for marriage tohappen and conflict to happen
until you start doing the work.
Um, there's still a lot to donow and, inshallah, we hope you
took some gyms with you allright, salam alaikum yeah, salam
alaikum.
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