December 21, 2022 • 52 mins
All good things must come to an end. This is the final episode of DIE-ALOGUE! Tune in to hear my interview with true crime author and friend, Tori Telfer — learn the WHY behind my decision to end DIE-ALOGUE, at least for now.
Make sure to listen through to the end for some fun, surprise appearances!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR LISTENING AND FOR KILLING THE SMALL TALK!
Special thanks:
Chris Gersbeck
Jason Usry
Javier Leiva
Dr. Scott
Dr. Shiloh
Crawlspace Network
Michelle K
Shannon N
Please keep in touch!
IG: @hi_itsrebeakh
TWITTER: @hi_itsrebekah
RebekahSebastian.com
Make sure to listen through to the end for some fun, surprise appearances!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR LISTENING AND FOR KILLING THE SMALL TALK!
Special thanks:
Chris Gersbeck
Jason Usry
Javier Leiva
Dr. Scott
Dr. Shiloh
Crawlspace Network
Michelle K
Shannon N
Please keep in touch!
IG: @hi_itsrebeakh
TWITTER: @hi_itsrebekah
RebekahSebastian.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:30):
Welcome to Dialogue. I'm your host, Revecca Sebastian, and this is a
really special, weird, important,bittersweet episode. I promised myself that I
would let the interviews speak for itselfand keep this intro short, and I
want to make good on that.But I have to pop on and let
you know that this is the lastepisode of Dialogue. I know there's so
(00:53):
much I want to say, butI think the best way to do this
is to let the final episode bean interview in true dialogue form. So
today I am the guest, andI will be interviewed by true crime author
Tory Telfer, who's also my friendand coincidentally my very first guest. So
this is a really lovely full circleand I just want to say thank you
(01:14):
to all of you, dear listeners. This has been such an amazing ride.
Thank you for killing the small talkwith me one hundred and fifty three
times over the last three plus years. It's just incredible. I don't want
to mince words. I am reallyproud of this show. I am really
grateful to all of you for listening. I really appreciate every guest who came
(01:36):
on to lend their expertise and pointof view on true crime. I would
like to particularly thank a few people. Chris Gersbeck, who helped me start
the podcast, like showed me howto get an RSS feed and turn this
thing on if you will. JasonUssri, who was a listener of the
show then became a friend. Thenmy trusted editor Javier Leva, a friend
(01:57):
and collaborator, Olivia Himes for theoriginal theme song, and are haunting ukulele
work, Tim and Lance at thecrawl Space Network they have been such a
support to the show over the lastfew years. And my True Crime inner
circle Doctor Scott, Doctor Shiloh,Michelle K. Shannon, and and of
course my diehard patrons. Please staysubscribed to the feed. I have more
(02:19):
in the works. You can alsofollow me personally on Instagram and Twitter at
high Underscore. It's Rebecca, ofcourse, that's with a kah. It'll
be in the show notes, andcheck out my website for updates on what
I am up to. Can't exactlyshare the specifics, but there's quite a
bunch in the works and you willhear about it. I hope. Please
stay connected with me Rebecca Sebastian dotcom. There's ways to communicate with me
(02:43):
there and also on social media.Don't forget, I'm also the co host
of Criminality with my friend Melissa,a show that explores the intersection of reality
TV and true crime. So twotimes a month, I'm still going to
be podcasting over on that show.Go ahead and follow at Criminality Show on
Instagram and Twitter and check it outif you haven't already. Thank you,
thank you, thank you. Andwith that, here is the final episode
(03:07):
of Dialogue. Welcome to Dialogue podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Sebastian,
and this is gonna be strange andinteresting and exciting because I am your host,
but today I think I could alsobe the guest, which is weird.
(03:30):
So my guest is going to bethe host and you might know her,
especially anyone who's been listening from thevery beginning. Please welcome my friend,
my former guest, two time guestI think at least, if not
three, Tori Telfer. Hi,Tori, Hi, Rebecca. I have
indeed been on your podcast twice andwe've done events together. Yeah, you've
(03:57):
been my true crime girl from sincetwenty sixteen, which is weird. That
is so weird. What a yearTrumpian year we've made it through Trump,
halfway through body. Yeah on theother side, Yeah, this is cool.
And for anyone you know who's listenedfrom the very beginning, you'll you'll
remember that Tori was the numero unoguest. And that's kind of crazy because
(04:20):
I just started the show not knowinglike what I was doing or who I
was going to talk to. Butwe met through a mutual friend and I
knew you, you know, youwere the perfect prototype for a guest,
and that remained true. And soyou know, by now, listeners will
know based on the intro that thisis for now a final episode of Dialogue.
(04:41):
And I didn't know how to endthe show. And I know you
have experienced ending a podcast and theweird complications and like disorientation, the guilt
that goes with it. So Iwas like, how do I end this?
You know, I can't just endwith a guest and let it be
like this normal week. But Ididn't want to sit on the mic for
thirty minutes talking about while not continuing. So I thought, oh, it's
(05:02):
an interview show. I need tobe interviewed, and I need Tory to
interview me. And so here weare. Thank you for doing this.
Yes, Oh, it's my pleasure. Let's let's plunge into some questions.
Yeah, I'm gonna like sit backnow and we're going to reverse the roles
and this is going to be uncomfy, but I'm excited. Okay, let's
start with the big question on everyone'smind, which is why dialogues ending?
(05:27):
Now? What made you decide todo this? Yeah? Well, I
wish I had a really super clearanswer. It just feels like it's time,
and sometimes you just have to knowthat and trust that. In your
life, things have a season andsometimes it's time. Why I think it's
time, you know. Some ofthe thinking around it is I feel like
(05:47):
I've taken the show as far asI can, and that to get it
to the next level, I justdon't know that I can do it or
have the bandwidth do it. AndI took a break this summer, which
listeners will also know. I tookwhat was going to be like a couple
weeks turned into a few months duringa particularly hard season of life. I
(06:09):
came back very ready to continue theshow, but I have to say that
break was I needed it, andcoming back has been great but also hard,
and I think it kind of crystallizedand clarified that it might be time
like, yeah, this might bewhat dialogue is and what dialogue was supposed
(06:30):
to be. And I want toend it before and completely in a puddle
on the floor, where like youhave to like kick me out, like
I'd like to leave, hopefully withpeople wanting a little bit more, because
I have other ideas, And that'skind of the continuation part is I have
more projects in the works. Ithink I'll be back behind a mic for
sure at some point, whether inanother form completely or a dialect two point
(06:55):
oh, I don't know. Thatwill probably be taking shape in the next
couple of months. But I haveother projects. I want to work on,
other stories, I want to tell, other ways I want to tell
them, and so I've just decidedto to call it. I think that's
totally valid, And I think,you know you your podcast is an incredible
(07:15):
amount of work. I mean it'sweekly. You're prepping for the interviews,
you're doing the interviews, you're findingthe interview. Yeah, you're prepping,
you're doing the interviews, You're you'reediting which takes so long. You're posting
on social and I'm you know,a million other tasks that aren't visible and
for a weekly show, I meanmy show was every other week for a
while, and even that was likeso much work. It's a lot.
(07:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's a lot. So yeah, I totally get it.
How many guests have you had total? Oh my gosh, or roughly
we surpassed one hundred and fifty,so it's something like almost one hundred and
sixty probably by now I should getthe exact number. I'll fact check myself.
But yeah, I mean a reallysolid number of people in three years,
(08:00):
and I guess, like three anda half years, I guess by
the time this comes out. Yeah, do you feel like you've interviewed everyone
you want to interview or are youfeeling like, oh, I really wish
I could get X, Y andZ on. No, I mean I
feel very lucky in who I got. I couldn't. There's still people I'm
like, how did that happen?And I feel like I got surprised by
(08:22):
people that I didn't expect, youknow, to be so excited about.
But no, I did not.I mostly got yes, is very rarely
got flat out no. It's gota lot of like no responses. There's
a couple people I've always wanted tohave on that I never got on,
and one is Sarah Kanig, onlybecause Cereal is mentioned like pretty much every
other episode. It comes up inone way, shape or form. So
(08:45):
we just thought, you know,to talk to her about Cereal would be
really cool. And we did havea nice exchange, but she just very
politely declined because she wasn't promoting anything. And I'm like, you don't have
to promote anything. We can justabout Cereal, but she was not really
interested in doing that. We canjust be friends, yeah, completely.
And then Aaron Lee car the directorof so many HBO docs. I find
(09:05):
her point of view very interesting andI think she's doing so much interesting work
in true crime. I was likehell bent on getting her and I never
could. No one else like jumpsto mind. There's other people I'd surely
love to talk to you, butthose were two that I was always trying.
Yeah, yeah, what about Karenor Georgia from my favorite murder?
Oh that's a great question, tried. Would you want if you had asked
(09:26):
me in twenty nineteen when I startedthe show, I would have said,
like a top five desire, likeand it isn't like I don't want to
interview them anymore. I feel likeI grew out of my favorite murder over
the years. Yes, they continueto just be such forces in this industry.
You know, they have their wholenetwork. Now I don't know,
(09:46):
I think, like just my personalconnection to the show is different now.
I don't listen. I haven't listenedin ages, So we don't know that
we would have the best conversation becauseI'm not like actively like absorbing what they
were putting out that said, theyare such you know, they were such
industry shapers and genre creators that Ithink we could have a great conversation.
(10:09):
And I'm changing my mind. Ithink I would love to talk to them
because Georgia's become sober and I'm sober. Karen's been sober since I've listened to
her, So I think we couldeven have like interesting tangential conversations. But
I would have to say like thathas changed, like that that is different
now than it was three years ago, which I think is probably good and
healthy. Yeah, you know,it's funny. Actually they have shaped the
(10:33):
narrative so much that I said thatyou and I met in twenty sixteen,
but that's when they started their podcast. We met in twenty nineteen. That's
why I said we made it throughjust so did you, noney? Because
I haven't written down on my notesbecause I wanted to ask you about them,
so I looked up. So that'swhy I had twenty sixteen in my
mind. It feels like I've knownyou since twenty sixteen. I know I
(10:54):
was, so I went with it. I'm like, I like adding some
years to our friendship because we weresuch five friends. But um, but
yeah, that actually makes more sensethat we met the year I started my
show and then you came right now. Yeah, considering they started in twenty
sixteen makes a lot of sense.Like that their show and play deserve all
the credit for what they did,and I don't take away from them at
(11:16):
all. I just for me.It's no longer like a source of where
I get my true crime, likescratched itched if you will, that's not
where I go anymore. But UMlove them. You're scratch itched. It's
scratched. Wait, I was socute. I love it. Um.
(11:37):
Well, let me jump ahead tomy MFM question because I wanted to ask
you since twenty sixteen when they began, and that was when I feel like
everyone was like, true crime isa thing now, which, of course
you and I know it's been athing since the dawn of time. Yea,
but how have you seen true crimechange or like true crime podcast,
true crime media since the twenty sixten My Favorite Murders Big we're reading cases
(12:01):
off Wikipedia. Yeah, maybe we'relaughing. Well, you know, you
go ahead and taught me about youthink, Yeah, oh my gosh,
I think it's totally changing and evolving, and it's completely the same. It's
both. It's so funny. Ifeel like, like so many things,
I'm like, well, in twentytwenty two, you couldn't start a podcast
(12:22):
called My Favorite Murder Like I justdon't think it would resonate. I don't
think people would think it was cuteor funny. I think they'd be like,
that's insensitive. And this has beena struggle for me, and anybody
who's listened for a long time knowsthat I've always delicately tried to dance the
dance of entertainment infotainment. You know. I've always felt like dialogue wanted to
be like infotainment, like we're gettinginformation. I hope to be entertaining,
(12:46):
but I'm definitely not up here makingjokes. I think it's changed. I
think the awareness has just grown tremendously. I think we're a little more self
aware of our position in the genre. Like there was none of that twenty
sixteen. There was so little,I should say, yeah, at least
not from major I'm sure people weresaying it, but the major true crime
(13:07):
narrative was not as fine tuned tothese creativities, right, Yeah, the
ones that were broken through to likethe masses that everybody was listening to,
didn't have a lot of nuance.They didn't have a lot of criminal justice
perspective, right. And for me, what happened was the more I listened
(13:28):
to true crime and understood cases andI just couldn't help but seeing themes and
all the stories, and that's whatmade me start dialogue. I'm like,
oh, you know, racism,coercion, and consent, like these are
all the things that we're talking aboutwhen we talk about true crime. It's
not as straightforward as murder. It'snot reduced down to this stay sexy,
(13:48):
don't be murdered mantra, which waspivotal for me, Like that was such
a rally cry for me at onepoint in my life. But then eventually,
like more revealed itself, I becamemore interested in so two people just
for fun, reading mostly from Wikipediacases like left a little to be desired
(14:09):
for me. Now I think theshow has evolved. I don't think it
stayed there, and I think manyother shows did too. Yeah, so
now you hear interesting conversations happen aboutthe themes at play in a story versus
just like looking at it singularly,which you should. It's a specific story
about a specific person or people.But what are the parallels and what are
(14:30):
like the bigger conclusions. I thinkthat's new. Yeah. I also think
the genres expanded, like your workwith white collar crime and fraud and Cohn
women. Yeah, not just serialkillers. It's not just serial killers and
murders, which is refreshing for mebecause that is a lot to in front,
weekend and week out. I knowa lot of people with vicarious trauma
(14:52):
who work in your crime. It'stoo much. So like, yeah,
I love to talk to people aboutyou know, personal safety, self defense,
these things that kind of can gotrue crime adjacent. That was always
my goal with Dialogue was to broadenthe conversation, bring more people into it,
and maybe just like left of centerright, not politically, I mean
meaning we're not just talking about thebulls eye of a murder and a crime.
(15:13):
It's like taking a broader approach.This conversation that we're having is making
me wonder if do you think theremight ever be a true crime a backlash
within true crime of like where we'rekind of going back to the off color
joke era because it's gotten so selfserious, Like I'm seeing that politically with
(15:37):
I'm going to generalize here, liketo a insane degree, but you know,
I feel like I read that sometimeslike gen Z is pushing back against
the millennial like super serious political likelike social justice warrior, yeah type.
And I'm wondering if we'll see thatin true crime, Like have we gotten
(15:58):
so concerned with morals and with beingserious that we're going to have and being
woke and being because I feel likesometimes people are afraid to admit that there's
anything salacious and entertaining in these storiesand it's and we kind of like that.
I know I've made a mistake myselfwhere it's like, what do you
(16:19):
mean this is entertaining, like Iam educating you. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, totally gonna see this newwave of podcasters come up who are like,
we're bringing back the Gore, Like, what do you think? I
don't know. Here's what I think. I think you're totally right, I
think, and I should be reallyclear. I've gone back and forth on
the issue. I don't think there'sanything wrong with true crime is entertainment.
(16:41):
I want to be really clear aboutthat. I think humans have loved stories
of life and death from the dawnof time. I totally so we're fascinated
by it. I don't think weneed to apologize for that. And then
I think it becomes personal preference,and that's all very subjective of like how
to do it and how to doit appropriately. I do have feelings on
that, but that is personal.Will I go back to like a super
(17:03):
like gore forward point of the tabloidy? Yeah, I don't know. What
I love It's possible. I dothink like the pendulum always shifts back and
goes hard. But what I alreadysee is like parody and satire happening in
true crime, like and satire oftrue crime. That's a good sign to
me. That it's like the genrecan't take itself too seriously, and now
(17:26):
we have like murder in the building, you know, and kind of scripted
less nonfiction approaches to crime stories.And if you watch any like Lifetime or
Hallmark movie. Now even there's apodcaster like that is like a trope of
a character now and for a goodreason, like weird weird, and both
podcasters are weirdos. And so Isee more right now a shift of being
(17:51):
able to laugh at ourselves and nottake ourselves so seriously, which I think
is really good. Yeah, solong as it's coupled with the aware that
someone died and we know that.But there is that right now. I
still think there's a big shift oflike victim centric storytelling, which I don't
think it's bad obviously. I don'tthink I need to say that. Yeah,
(18:11):
but I just listened to Bone Valley. I don't know if you listened
to it. It's about a wrongfulconviction. It's phenomenal, and I had
that host on and I really feellike they did such a beautiful job showing
us that and not telling us that. And that's a tricky way to say
that because it's a podcast. Butthey can tell us because it's auditory.
But it didn't come on in avoice over and say Michelle's life really mattered,
(18:32):
she should be at the center ofthe story, she was the victim.
Yeah. They instead revealed some verycandid audio of their responses to looking
at the pictures of her autopsy anddifferent things like that, and it was
just so real and so didn't panderto the audience like this is how you
should feel about this. It waslike, this is how we feel about
it. And thereby they kind ofset a tone of respect. So for
(18:53):
me, that's more my style,that's more my preference. But do I
think it's bad that there's a heighteneda way to make sure victims aren't getting
lost in the story or being youknow, blamed or shamed. Of course,
not like ever, never, ever, it's so tricky toy, you
know this Just as much as Ilike, I like, there's never We're
(19:14):
never going to conclude this conversation,which is good, Which is good.
It moves, I think it moveswith the times, and it ebbs and
flows. Yeah, well, canwe can we talk about seliciousness? Can
we meet? Can we gossip alittle bit? Here? I really want
(19:37):
to hear. Um, Well,I want to. I want to know
if there's any tea you want toshare. But can I start by telling
you I may have already told youthis on a podcast. I hope so.
But but can I just share withyou this podcast title that I once
learned someone wanted to make me sorry. This isn't coherent. No, there's
(19:59):
my goss I'm gonna start with mygossip. Great once upon a time,
this company that I work for thatshall remain nameless. Try to title a
podcast that I was going to workon talk Bundy to me, I discussed
this, we did I think wedidn't talk about Yes. So that's my
example of just like gag what growthnever never too much? So do you
(20:22):
have any like salacious or cheesy,like industry bits of gossip you want to
share, or like something a guestrevealed or something you've felt about someone you
interacted with. Oh, that's this, this is juicy, this is good.
I'm gonna need to think for asecond the realty I really can't share
on the mic. Um, Iwill see. I've had a lot of
(20:47):
things pitched to me, you know, for guests that I've had to say
no to. Just because they theywere the equivalent of talk Bundy to me,
content like either the book or showthat they were promoting was just a
couple of weird things, just likeone guest had a hard candy in his
mouth the whole time we talked.Did you hear it? Rabbit? Yeah,
And anyone who listened to every episode, we'll go back and they'll be
(21:08):
able to know who does. Iwon't say, but I didn't say anything
because I was just it was like, you know, definitely within the first
like twenty or thirty episodes, whereI wasn't confident enough to say, like,
hey, can we take that againwithout the lozenge. We're so socialized
to be polite, but also like, sir, I mean, I'm assuming
it's a man. It was.Of course it was a man, sir,
Get the lozenge out of your mouth. Yeah, yeah, And he
(21:33):
was like rolling it around with histongue. It was visually distracting because it
was zoom and auditorially just terrible,and like I put it out there because
again I was so new and greenthat I was like I have to put
it out there just to go backto Karen and Georgia. You know,
we did get fuck politeness from them, and I have to say that was
liberating as a girl who grew upin the church and was told to be
(21:55):
yes. Yeah, that was reallyliberating. So I don't again they do
they are do a lot of respect. Oh again, I'm not going to
name names, but I have haduh guests on that have had beef with
each other and the other has calledme and asked me to remove the others.
I had that one how uncomfortable isthat you're in the middle of almost
(22:19):
uncomfy? And also like how audayshe just like I can't imagine asking anyone
to do that. Wait, solike the second or like like guest number
two came on and then guest numberone was like take me off. I
don't want to be a no no. Guest number one said, I saw
you had guest number two on.I don't think she should be on your
feet, and here's why, liketelling me, yeah, yeah, there
(22:41):
was. There were a couple thingslike that. Honestly, like any industry,
you know, true crime is small, people know each other and they
have strong feelings. That was uncomfortable, and early on in my career as
a podcaster, I think if ithappened. Now, I would handle it
really differently. I didn't take itdown and accommodate. But now I don't
even know that I would have likeentertained the call the way that I did.
(23:04):
Yeah, the true crime space isnot immune from bad behavior by men.
So I'll just say I had acouple weird encounters like that with people
I would have really liked to haveon the podcast that unfortunately made it not
possible to do that because it gotweird. And it's not because I made
it weird. Yeah, So Idon't mean to be cryptic. It just
(23:26):
unfortunately that is a thing, andthat that very much happens in the podcast
space, I think to women abit. Yeah, so creepers in full
every industry. That's exactly right.It doesn't matter if the industry is all
about, oh here we sent ourvictims, you know exactly. Yeah right,
(23:56):
Well, what about like super positiveexperiences you've had with guests or at
conventions? You know, is therea time you were just totally starstruck someone
was even more amazing than you thanyou answer, and I'll let you off
the hook here, Like obviously theanswer is me, so you don't have
to say me no, I'm reallyassumed. I'm really glad you made that
(24:18):
caveat, because that would be myfirst response. Don't ask all my guests
back a second time. So several, I mean, there's several guests that
I've turned into friends. And thereare some people who I was kind of
like, oh, this will befine, but turned out to be amazing.
And then there's ones that you thinkthis is going to be an amazing
interview and it's fine. So Ialways love when that happens. So,
(24:41):
for example, I was really excitedwhen I got Paul Holes, because who
wouldn't be he was, He's PaulHoles. Even though our he's almost too
young to be our grandpa. Whatis he to us? Like our uncle?
Yeah, he's definitely too young tobe our grandpa. Uncle. Yeah,
it's a true crime uncle like totallyyeah, which also sounds a little
(25:03):
creepy, but uncle's uncle is unfortunately, but I understand where we're trying to
place him in the in the friendlyneighbor, in the friendly Okay. So
I was thrilled to have him on, and I knew it was going to
be good, but I actually thoughtit was going to be just pretty like
wrote and like your typical Paul Hole'sinterview, but it was right when his
memoir came out, and he wassuper vulnerable and he really you know,
(25:29):
went there. But he was alsosuper vulnerable in his book, which I
also was surprised by. So Iread his memoir and I was really blown
away by what he revealed. Andso that interview means a lot to me
because I think a lot of peoplestarted listening to me because of that interview,
and it went far and wide becauseof him. But the interview itself
was just so solid and strong,and like I think there was just a
lot of good energy between us inthe conversation. Well, let me just
(25:53):
say right now, you're a greatinterviewer, and that is not a given.
Like it might sound easy to justit down and ask a bunch of
questions and it kind of seems likethe other person does most of the talking,
but it's not a skill everyone has. You do so much research.
Your questions are so good. Youdefinitely do more research than I do anytime
I interview anyone. So I thinkyour listeners to hear me say that,
(26:18):
because it's you're very skilled at whatyou do. Well, I think I've
gotten more skilled I mean, Ithink I maybe have a natural aptitude.
But your first interview, it's stillone of my favorites, but it's very
it's rough. Now. I thinkit would sound different if I did it
today, and that's good. Itshould me and a half years later,
right, Yeah, but thank you. I appreciate that. I do really
(26:41):
enjoy doing it. Other interviews thatkind of have left an impression, Mani
Tafari, I've never stopped thinking aboutsome of the things you said. I
mean, just like one liners thatreally changed my perspective. And I would
say his conversate our interview as apivotal shift for me kind of thinking more
about the criminal justice system on thedefendant side, like how important defendants rights
(27:03):
are, which is a little counterto the narrative of like the bad guys
and you know we put the victimson a pedestal and throw the other guys
away, and just how essential itis for our own rights, all of
ours as citizens, that we protecteven people who do bad things, because
we want our rights protected. Hewas very instrumental in me understanding the bigger
(27:23):
picture on that, and we've stayedin touch and you know, collaborate on
different things now so that's another one. There's so many women I've had on.
I've probably had on more women thanmen in total, and you know,
probably less household names, but justpeople doing incredible work. Like the
most recent one that really sticks withme as a series I did on consent,
(27:47):
and this woman named Joyce Short who'shere in New York and she her
organization lobbies for legislation change around consentbecause there is no legal definition of consent
in most states, so rape andsex crimes are very hard to prosecute when
there's no consensus on what consent is. And it just like the fact that
that's someone's career, that that's whatthey've done for decades and decades, and
(28:08):
it was on the heels of herown sexual assault and trauma in a very
different era of our country. Thatblew me away. And I think and
I got a lot of feedback fromthat one that people learned a lot about
consent that they hadn't heard of before. And then a series I did on
it was called Missing, Murdered,and the Media, and it was sort
of those three topics, right,how the media portrays who is missing and
(28:30):
murdered, Why we talk about whowe talk about and I had just the
coolest array of women doing deep academicand entertaining, so some more podcasters,
some more academics coming in to talkabout that I learned so much. So
mostly it was like that it wasjust me learning every time and leaving just
(28:51):
knowing so much more than I didwhen I started. And that's like the
biggest thrill for me. Well,that feeds perfectly into my next question,
which is, have you changed yourmind about anything because of your show?
Probably I would not talk to thepolice if they wanted to question me about
something about something that I own,crime or anyone's car Um. I would
(29:12):
be a witness if I knew somethingto be true, and maybe i'd still
bring a lawyer. But I mean, if they wanted to question me about
something, yeah, whether I didit or not, I'm going to assume
I didn't because I don't feel likeI have criminal tendencies at this moment in
time today. Um, but Ijust wouldn't talk to the police. I
(29:33):
just would get oh yeah, Imean, I you know, when I
guess when my show started, mykids were like twenty seventeen and fifty fourteen,
and now they're three years older thanthat. If you ask them like
what is your mom imparted to itwould be thrifting, like go to the
thrift store for your clothes, andand um, don't let the police search
(29:53):
your place at that'll warrant including yourcar and get a lawyer. I also
probably be kind and stuff. Butlike, I think they know that you
don't have to talk to the police, even if they say you do.
And I've just seen it gone backwardsso many times or sideways. I guess
this is the expression. I justit doesn't always work out, even for
innocent people with the desire to help. I started this in twenty nineteen.
(30:14):
These issues are not new, buttwenty twenty it's like, you know it
all really what it was like thetipping point with George Floyd and everything.
So that's another interview that I thinkreally left a lasting impression on me.
With Matthew Horace. He is aformer lieutenant up in Minneapolis. Grew up
as a young black man really harassedby police on the streets, but ended
(30:34):
up still pursuing a police career.And now he's written this book called The
Black, White, and the Blue, and it's the most nuanced pro law
enforcement, pro reform story and likethose sound conflicting, but they're not if
you leave room for there to benuanced and hear people's stories. And he's
so brilliant And now he's the headof security up at like MYO clinic or
(30:55):
something. He does private security,but brilliant, brilliant guy who helped me
reckon style. The desire to notthrow out you know, I'm not comfortable
yet at this point saying you know, I don't think there should be a
police force and system, yeah,which some people are there and I'm not
(31:15):
there. I have so much respectfor people who serve in law enforcement.
I just really, you know,think just like prosecutors, they should be
punished when they do things. Yea. And yeah that there needs to be
changes in policy and training and recruiting, like all of that needs to be
different than I've had like probably dozensof experts on talking about very specific ways
(31:37):
they could start tackling that, likehigher you know, maybe elevating the standards
of who you let in. Wouldthat look like? So, where what
were we talking about? What You'vechanged your mind that I talked to the
police, But I still appreciate them. I just don't want to to think
because I've also had so many copson former law enforcement retire current so much
(32:00):
respect and admiration. Um, Ijust I see both sides of it,
and I recognize my position in theecosystem, and it's one where I haven't
had a lot of bad run insbecause I'm because of who I am,
So I just don't want to benaive about the realities. But uh,
it's a tough one. Yeah,it's a tough one. It's a it's
a big one. What about somethingyou've seen people get wrong again and again?
(32:25):
And I thought of this because Iwas thinking about your trivia show.
You know, is it can belike is it? It can be a
fact like people always say Charles Mansonwas a serial killer, but right right,
annoying one or or an assumption,but like, don't I think I'm
surprised continually by how new people thinktrue crime is. And I love that
(32:47):
you said that right at the topof our conversation today, that you and
I both know because you and Ihave talked at nauseum about this being such
an ancient human part of history.But I think I'm surprised when I hear
someone you know, maybe date itmuch more recent as a recent phenomenon when
I've really come to understand that there'snothing new about it. It's just taken
(33:09):
on a new shape and form.And you know, oh, I've got
one. I think people assume it'sthe bad guys in jail, and you
know that goes one in jail isthe one who did it? You mean,
yeah that like everyone in prison saysthey didn't do it. They all
are, they are all guilty whenthe estimates, you know, according to
(33:30):
some organizations are up to like minimumfive percent or innocent up to twenty So
so that's you know, a realmisconception is just that everybody that's in prison
belongs there. Yeah, or likethe confession means they did it, you
know exactly that cow that a confession. Nobody would ever confess to something that
(33:51):
they didn't actually do when in reality, and that goes back to why I
would never you know, talk withthat a lawyer. It's amazing when they
turn up pressure on you and haveother maybe smaller crimes hanging over your head,
there's all less things they can do, including make you physically uncomfortable,
keeping you in a room overnight,not feeding you, to get you to
say what they want you to say, so. Yeah, false confessions can
(34:14):
happen. Anyone can join a cult. Anyone can be conned. I might
add those people they could never that'sa great one. I would never join
a cult. I've been pretty vocalabout that. There's a cult for everyone,
and it's just a matter of itfinding you at the right time and
the wrong time. But the righttime for the cults, wrong time for
(34:35):
you. Yeah, there's no beingimmune to let's say the three c's,
cults, cons and police coercion.There you go. I love it.
You can figure out a way tomake that snappier and sell. I will
something about like, don't forget totake your vitamins. See, don't be
conned and join a cult or getcoerced into a confession quadruple. See you
(35:00):
mentioned getting your true crime itch scratchedearlier. Used to be from my faite
murder. Where do you get yourtrue crime now? Or are you over
true crime? Do you not consumeit anymore? M great question. I
won't say I'm over it, butI am far less of a consumer than
(35:22):
I used to be. And Idon't know if that's just a occupational hazard
of the job, but my otherpodcast, which is another reason why I'm
I would add that to my whynow, Like I have another podcast with
the Coast Melissa called Criminality, whichis reality TV and true crime intersection Genius,
genius, super fun and a lighter, and I will say reality TV
(35:46):
is a really nice escape from truecrime, although true crime is infiltrating reality
TV because these people keep making terriblechoices of not paying their taxes. I
get it more now from books andlike episodic series. I would say podcasts,
but not just weekly anthology never endinglike mine. Like I don't listen
(36:07):
to any shows. I also thinkthat's just because when you're a podcaster,
you can't like listen to that much. I've listened to all the guests that
I have on to their shows.But I think I'm reading more. I'm
reading the books of my guests.I'm reading books my guests recommend, and
I'm watching more shows like The WhiteLotus, which is crimy, but you
know it's Prestige TV. It's not. I'm not watching the Casey Anthony doc
(36:30):
which everyone's talking about, no boo. I'm just not to watch the Dahmer
one that everyone was talking about.I just I'm not over it. I'm
a little fatigued, and that mightbe part of the break too, is
that maybe I just don't even wantto like contribute to it for now.
(36:51):
Definitely not gonna go on the recordsaying like I'm over True Crime and I'll
never listen, watch or read itagain because that's not true. But I'm
fatigued for sure. Yeah, Ihear you. I consume almost nothing true
Crime. I'm trying to think it'slike a hint, you know, yeah,
I already know the story of Dahmer. Thank you, Like I already
(37:14):
like have pretty much made up mymind about Casey Anthony. Thanks but no
thing. So Okay, this iskind of a tricky question, but you
know, we've seen True Crime tryingto address its blind spots over the past
couple of years, and maybe it'salways been doing that. Do you can
you use your fortune telling powers andguess what is the next blind spot that
(37:37):
we're going to have to grapple with? Free That is a crazy good question,
like really really thoughtful and something I'venever thought about or considered one of
our blind spots that might continue tobe revealed. I think it's starting.
Is also like our own role intrue crime and what we do to in
(37:59):
two ways, so on the entertainmentside and then on the actual side of
criminal justice, meaning for instance,Casey Anthony, if people don't watch in
droves, you know they probably won'tmake another tell all with someone Yeah,
we don't want to hear from yes, because you know that's right. So
(38:19):
maybe the blind spot is our ownselves and like the power we wield as
concerns. But again I'm not sureto yuck anyone's yum, like, yeah,
you want to watch it, watchit. I know a lot of
people who watched it. But thatis one way that I think maybe we're
a little bit naive and thinking thatwe don't have like power within the genre.
The second is within the system.So one of the biggest things I've
learned in my own blind spot beforedoing dialogue was sort of my own agency
(38:44):
as a voter in my jurisdiction,so voting for my district attorney, my
local representatives, we can really havean impact on sentencing and bail reforms.
Of those are things you feel stronglyabout on either side. You know,
politically you have a say, andthose are elections that aren't as put in
(39:06):
your face and easy to remember andyou know, depending where you live.
So I think that's a blind spottoo. Is just that we can complain
about our broken system. That's likeloves. We'd love to throw that around.
But you know, I'm not sayingeach of us should vote and will
make all the difference. But atleast we're not just doing nothing. And
it forces you to do a littlereading and to find out who these people
(39:28):
are that represent you in your yourstate, town or county. I love
that, Like we're used, we'reaccustomed to being a passive consumer or thinking
of ourselves as passive consumers, LikeI just lay on my couch and binge
it. I just yeah, you'resaying, right, right, nothing nothing
pertically wrong with that. But you'resaying, maybe we're being a little naive,
(39:49):
like we even if we're consuming onour couch, we are still giving
clicks, We're giving attention to thesethat's rights. So like just be aware
of that, right, you know, that's right? And U yeah,
I totally agree with you about theelection thing. I've had guests say the
same thing to me. You know, it's like these are actually the elections
where you and a handful of yourfriends voting for someone can literally make a
(40:10):
difference, which, let's be real, is not true of the bit high
profile elections in this country. That'sright, that's it. It's exciting to
me, yea is it feels moretangible, it's less abstract. The results,
you know, are they are feltand seen in your own neighborhood.
So I do I think that's reallyimportant. I wonder if there will also
(40:34):
be This isn't like so much ofa blind spot as much as a returning
to a trend that we talked aboutearlier, but a like I wonder if
we're going to stop being in denial. And by we, I don't mean
you and I, but I'm literallythinking of the Dahmer series on Netflix,
which is like making like I'm sureyou read you know, the director like
none of the victims families financial spoketo them, so it's like, okay,
(41:00):
can we can we then using thatinformation? Can you just freaking admit
it's a a bloody, entertaining storythat you chose to go ahead and make
for entertainment to make a lot ofmoney, and like, yeah, the
guy playing Damer is super method andlike kudos to him for being a good
actor, Like can we if you'regonna make it anyway, let's just admit
(41:22):
that instead of trying. I'm sonow I'm ranting, but I'm so sick
of these directors and every Bundy persondoes it too, being like this time
it's about the victims and it's like, but it isn't. And I would
literally respect you more if you werejust like this one's about Dahmer, Like
this one's about Ted, this one'sabout you know, satiating the apparently all
(41:47):
you women have you white women,you know, and like, no apologies,
you be candid Beatrice parent Yes,say what it is and who it's
for and why I would have somuch more respect. Oh, I'm with
you, and you know. Itreminds me of a guest I had on
named Lenora Claire Big shout out.She has an amazing company where she is
(42:10):
a consultant now for production companies andworks with streaming platforms like Netflix, and
they hire her to kind of bea laison with victims and help them for
crime programming. With crime programming,yes, and how so that victims aren't
re traumatized when they do decide totell a story on a documentary set.
This is what she does. It'sit's tough for her to get companies to
(42:32):
hire her, and they have bigbudgets for these movies and they don't want
to give a little fraction of itto put their money literally where their mouth
is saying, this is about thevictims. They want all those victims families
and those surviving people to come onand spill their guts, but they don't
want to pay someone to make surethat it's done screen. Yes, yeah,
yeah, you know, I wantto traumatize them. It's better TV,
(42:57):
I'm sure, right right, So, yes, I'm few on that
one. That's a great point.Okay, before we wrap up, I
just want to ask you about yourlisteners, because we've talked a lot about
guests, and we of course wouldn'tbe here where we are without people listening
to this stuff. So who areyour listeners? What's your relationship to them?
(43:20):
Oh man, such good questions,and yes, yes and yes,
So my listeners are really thoughtful peopleand really really nice. And I don't
mean that in a boring like don'thave another better descriptive word to you,
So just like they seem like reallygood people from the ones I talked to
you and hear from and I've learnedthey you know, when I think when
I started the show, I imagineda completely different audience from who my audience
(43:43):
ended up beyond they're nice people.They're nice and they're thoughtful, and they're
different from who I thought they wouldbe. I got a lot of people
writing me, well, writing workingon their dissertations feel fancy because I didn't
even finish college story. Yeah,so it could be like, Oh,
I'm doing my dissertation on you know, language and crime, and you know
(44:05):
this episode resonated because of this,and I'm like, wow, that's really
cool, because I think it wouldbe very self indulgent to get on here
and like be really sad about endingsomething like they'd be like, well,
then don't. So I just wanteveryone to know I've really mixed feelings about
this, Like I got a littleemotional thinking about talking to you today about
it feels surreal. It doesn't feelreally yet. This has been like such
(44:27):
a consistent practice of mine weekly forthree and a half years. It's amazing.
But that said, I don't thinkit's over dialogue. The feed will
stay open and alive. The episodesyou can go back to. People can
still discover it, and if Ido a new show, it depends with
whom I'm working. It could beon this same feed, So stay subscribed
(44:49):
and followed on wherever you listen.Specifically, I have a couple something I
started doing that my listeners might notknow is associate producing other shows, like
I have clients where I I'm partof the kind of the concepting and storytelling
of other podcasts. Actually, thetwo I've worked on neither our true crime,
so I'll probably have stuff in theworks that isn't true crime. And
(45:12):
so you could follow me on mypersonal Instagram, which is I'll put in
the show notes, but it's athigh underscore. It's Rebecca saying Twitter handle
at high underscore, it's Rebecca.I'll probably let the dialogue Twitter and Instagram,
you know, they'll stay there,but I probably won't be very active
there. So people can keep intouch with me on my personal social media,
my website Rebecca Sebastian dot com thatwill have any updates. And again
(45:35):
I can't say too much more,but I have some really exciting projects in
the works. God willing fingers crossedall the good thinking in twenty twenty three,
I should have some cool things toshare. So definitely, you know,
don't disconnect, stay in touch withme, because there's definitely more work
I want to do. It's justI need to like kind of recalibrate between
(45:55):
this and the next thing. Yeah, okay, it sounds like it's not
a good bye, it's a seeyou later. For sure. It's a
subscribed Yes, it's a dialogue.Isn't dead, it's just resting. It's
still accepting gifts coffee shop gift cards, but not accepting mean messages. I'll
say that right now is always closeto me. Not that your listeners would.
(46:22):
There's a straggler getting through. Theythink they can, you know,
through. Don't even think of allof dialogue listeners. You are not welcome
here, Casey Anthony, Yeah,shut it out of here, hush your
mouth. Nobody cares. Oh mygosh. Well, thank you Rebecca for
having me on, to have youon this. Yeah, I think of
(46:50):
anyone else, honest, well,I did think of anyone else. I
thought of one hundred and fifty fiveother else's and I'm like, it can
only be Tory. We have tobegin and end with us, and this
as always, it's just I lovetalking with you. And that's why I
wanted to do it this way.Same Tory listeners, everybody, thank you
so much for killing the small talkso many times over the last three plus
years. Truly, it's just beenthe greatest gift. And as Tori said,
(47:13):
it's not goodbye, it's see youlater and soon hopefully. Please stay
in touch. Hie, excuse me, sorry, let me stop this episode
right here. My name's Heavier Leva. I'm the host of Pretend and Criminal
Conduct Podcast. I am putting togetherthis finale for Rebecca, but she doesn't
(47:36):
know that. I got a fewof our podcasting friends to send her off.
Rebecca, thank you for having meon Dialogue. My personal favorite was
when we did the business of Cults. I know that you know that we
would both join a cult if wefound the right one. I know we're
not going to hear from you herein Dialogue, but I really hope you
don't join a cult. We reallylike you anyway. Good luck with the
(48:00):
rest of your career. I cannotwait to see what you have next.
Hi, Rebecca. Melissa here cohost of Criminality Podcast. Criminality Podcast,
where you can find Rebecca every otherFriday. On her other show, is
that appropriate to plug there. I'mnot sure, but I did it.
Rebecca. You've done such amazing thingswith dialogue, and I'm so thankful that
(48:20):
you decided to do criminality with me. What a weird message that must have
been to have received from me,who you barely knew, but you had
sent me pictures of Sonia Morgan throughoutthe town of New York, New York
City, if you will, Andso I felt like we were close enough
at that point to ask you tojoin me in co hosting a reality crime
(48:42):
show. And we've been doing thatfor two years and it's been so much
fun and I love getting to knowyou. You're the Judy to my Jen
and I'm glad we figured out thatcomparison pretty recently, and I learn a
lot from you. How am Igoing to end this? I'm so thankful
to be in your orbit. Thatfunds like a very real Housewives thing to
say. I'm so think well tobe in your orbit. Okay, I
don't know how long other people aretaking, so I'm going to end it
(49:04):
here. You're the best. Keepdreaming and kill the small talk. Hey,
Rebecca, Lady year from True CrimeCases. When Javier asked us to
say goodbye. I wanted to belike Rick Astley and never let you go.
However, you are such an incredibleand talented creator that I know whatever
it's next in your journey, youwill be incredible at it. So thank
you again for your support over theyears, and I will loudly be cheering
(49:28):
you on from the sidelines. HeyRebecca, it's Lance. I'm just dropping
you a quick note thanking you forthe amazing work you did on Dialogue.
You created such a brilliant show andI'm so sad to see that it is
ending officially, But I get it. I understand that all good things must
come to an end at some point, and I know that you have probably
(49:50):
one hundred and fifteen equally genius ideasready for prime time. As the kids
say, you are a fantastic talent, an amazing person, and you'll forever
be a gentleman farmer. Have agreat holiday season. I can't wait to
see and hear what you come upwith next. Hey Rebecca, it's Jason.
(50:14):
What a journey it's been. Can'tthank you enough for embracing me as
part of your show as a friend, introducing me to so many wonderful people
in the true crime podcasting space,and I'm just so proud of what you've
accomplished. I'm excited for your nextchapter, and I hope that you know
(50:37):
what good work that you have done, and I know that you will continue
to do. I wish you thebest, and you know if you ever
need me, I'm always here.Good luck. Let's love to you.
Hey, Rebecca, it's doctor Shilohand Doctor Scott. We just want to
let you know that we are sohappy that you put together Dialogue. It
(50:59):
had more heart and curiosity than anyother show in the true crime genre.
I just appreciated that you established veryearly on for our group and for a
lot of other casts out there,that there's a moral center and there's integrity
to this genre. I think you'rean inspiration and that inspiration is going to
(51:19):
go into all of your future endeavors, and I can't wait to see what
you do. You're amazing.
Welcome to Dialogue. I'm your host, Revecca Sebastian, and this is a
really special, weird, important,bittersweet episode. I promised myself that I
would let the interviews speak for itselfand keep this intro short, and I
want to make good on that.But I have to pop on and let
you know that this is the lastepisode of Dialogue. I know there's so
(00:53):
much I want to say, butI think the best way to do this
is to let the final episode bean interview in true dialogue form. So
today I am the guest, andI will be interviewed by true crime author
Tory Telfer, who's also my friendand coincidentally my very first guest. So
this is a really lovely full circleand I just want to say thank you
(01:14):
to all of you, dear listeners. This has been such an amazing ride.
Thank you for killing the small talkwith me one hundred and fifty three
times over the last three plus years. It's just incredible. I don't want
to mince words. I am reallyproud of this show. I am really
grateful to all of you for listening. I really appreciate every guest who came
(01:36):
on to lend their expertise and pointof view on true crime. I would
like to particularly thank a few people. Chris Gersbeck, who helped me start
the podcast, like showed me howto get an RSS feed and turn this
thing on if you will. JasonUssri, who was a listener of the
show then became a friend. Thenmy trusted editor Javier Leva, a friend
(01:57):
and collaborator, Olivia Himes for theoriginal theme song, and are haunting ukulele
work, Tim and Lance at thecrawl Space Network they have been such a
support to the show over the lastfew years. And my True Crime inner
circle Doctor Scott, Doctor Shiloh,Michelle K. Shannon, and and of
course my diehard patrons. Please staysubscribed to the feed. I have more
(02:19):
in the works. You can alsofollow me personally on Instagram and Twitter at
high Underscore. It's Rebecca, ofcourse, that's with a kah. It'll
be in the show notes, andcheck out my website for updates on what
I am up to. Can't exactlyshare the specifics, but there's quite a
bunch in the works and you willhear about it. I hope. Please
stay connected with me Rebecca Sebastian dotcom. There's ways to communicate with me
(02:43):
there and also on social media.Don't forget, I'm also the co host
of Criminality with my friend Melissa,a show that explores the intersection of reality
TV and true crime. So twotimes a month, I'm still going to
be podcasting over on that show.Go ahead and follow at Criminality Show on
Instagram and Twitter and check it outif you haven't already. Thank you,
thank you, thank you. Andwith that, here is the final episode
(03:07):
of Dialogue. Welcome to Dialogue podcast. I'm your host, Rebecca Sebastian,
and this is gonna be strange andinteresting and exciting because I am your host,
but today I think I could alsobe the guest, which is weird.
(03:30):
So my guest is going to bethe host and you might know her,
especially anyone who's been listening from thevery beginning. Please welcome my friend,
my former guest, two time guestI think at least, if not
three, Tori Telfer. Hi,Tori, Hi, Rebecca. I have
indeed been on your podcast twice andwe've done events together. Yeah, you've
(03:57):
been my true crime girl from sincetwenty sixteen, which is weird. That
is so weird. What a yearTrumpian year we've made it through Trump,
halfway through body. Yeah on theother side, Yeah, this is cool.
And for anyone you know who's listenedfrom the very beginning, you'll you'll
remember that Tori was the numero unoguest. And that's kind of crazy because
(04:20):
I just started the show not knowinglike what I was doing or who I
was going to talk to. Butwe met through a mutual friend and I
knew you, you know, youwere the perfect prototype for a guest,
and that remained true. And soyou know, by now, listeners will
know based on the intro that thisis for now a final episode of Dialogue.
(04:41):
And I didn't know how to endthe show. And I know you
have experienced ending a podcast and theweird complications and like disorientation, the guilt
that goes with it. So Iwas like, how do I end this?
You know, I can't just endwith a guest and let it be
like this normal week. But Ididn't want to sit on the mic for
thirty minutes talking about while not continuing. So I thought, oh, it's
(05:02):
an interview show. I need tobe interviewed, and I need Tory to
interview me. And so here weare. Thank you for doing this.
Yes, Oh, it's my pleasure. Let's let's plunge into some questions.
Yeah, I'm gonna like sit backnow and we're going to reverse the roles
and this is going to be uncomfy, but I'm excited. Okay, let's
start with the big question on everyone'smind, which is why dialogues ending?
(05:27):
Now? What made you decide todo this? Yeah? Well, I
wish I had a really super clearanswer. It just feels like it's time,
and sometimes you just have to knowthat and trust that. In your
life, things have a season andsometimes it's time. Why I think it's
time, you know. Some ofthe thinking around it is I feel like
(05:47):
I've taken the show as far asI can, and that to get it
to the next level, I justdon't know that I can do it or
have the bandwidth do it. AndI took a break this summer, which
listeners will also know. I tookwhat was going to be like a couple
weeks turned into a few months duringa particularly hard season of life. I
(06:09):
came back very ready to continue theshow, but I have to say that
break was I needed it, andcoming back has been great but also hard,
and I think it kind of crystallizedand clarified that it might be time
like, yeah, this might bewhat dialogue is and what dialogue was supposed
(06:30):
to be. And I want toend it before and completely in a puddle
on the floor, where like youhave to like kick me out, like
I'd like to leave, hopefully withpeople wanting a little bit more, because
I have other ideas, And that'skind of the continuation part is I have
more projects in the works. Ithink I'll be back behind a mic for
sure at some point, whether inanother form completely or a dialect two point
(06:55):
oh, I don't know. Thatwill probably be taking shape in the next
couple of months. But I haveother projects. I want to work on,
other stories, I want to tell, other ways I want to tell
them, and so I've just decidedto to call it. I think that's
totally valid, And I think,you know you your podcast is an incredible
(07:15):
amount of work. I mean it'sweekly. You're prepping for the interviews,
you're doing the interviews, you're findingthe interview. Yeah, you're prepping,
you're doing the interviews, You're you'reediting which takes so long. You're posting
on social and I'm you know,a million other tasks that aren't visible and
for a weekly show, I meanmy show was every other week for a
while, and even that was likeso much work. It's a lot.
(07:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's a lot. So yeah, I totally get it.
How many guests have you had total? Oh my gosh, or roughly
we surpassed one hundred and fifty,so it's something like almost one hundred and
sixty probably by now I should getthe exact number. I'll fact check myself.
But yeah, I mean a reallysolid number of people in three years,
(08:00):
and I guess, like three anda half years, I guess by
the time this comes out. Yeah, do you feel like you've interviewed everyone
you want to interview or are youfeeling like, oh, I really wish
I could get X, Y andZ on. No, I mean I
feel very lucky in who I got. I couldn't. There's still people I'm
like, how did that happen?And I feel like I got surprised by
(08:22):
people that I didn't expect, youknow, to be so excited about.
But no, I did not.I mostly got yes, is very rarely
got flat out no. It's gota lot of like no responses. There's
a couple people I've always wanted tohave on that I never got on,
and one is Sarah Kanig, onlybecause Cereal is mentioned like pretty much every
other episode. It comes up inone way, shape or form. So
(08:45):
we just thought, you know,to talk to her about Cereal would be
really cool. And we did havea nice exchange, but she just very
politely declined because she wasn't promoting anything. And I'm like, you don't have
to promote anything. We can justabout Cereal, but she was not really
interested in doing that. We canjust be friends, yeah, completely.
And then Aaron Lee car the directorof so many HBO docs. I find
(09:05):
her point of view very interesting andI think she's doing so much interesting work
in true crime. I was likehell bent on getting her and I never
could. No one else like jumpsto mind. There's other people I'd surely
love to talk to you, butthose were two that I was always trying.
Yeah, yeah, what about Karenor Georgia from my favorite murder?
Oh that's a great question, tried. Would you want if you had asked
(09:26):
me in twenty nineteen when I startedthe show, I would have said,
like a top five desire, likeand it isn't like I don't want to
interview them anymore. I feel likeI grew out of my favorite murder over
the years. Yes, they continueto just be such forces in this industry.
You know, they have their wholenetwork. Now I don't know,
(09:46):
I think, like just my personalconnection to the show is different now.
I don't listen. I haven't listenedin ages, So we don't know that
we would have the best conversation becauseI'm not like actively like absorbing what they
were putting out that said, theyare such you know, they were such
industry shapers and genre creators that Ithink we could have a great conversation.
(10:09):
And I'm changing my mind. Ithink I would love to talk to them
because Georgia's become sober and I'm sober. Karen's been sober since I've listened to
her, So I think we couldeven have like interesting tangential conversations. But
I would have to say like thathas changed, like that that is different
now than it was three years ago, which I think is probably good and
healthy. Yeah, you know,it's funny. Actually they have shaped the
(10:33):
narrative so much that I said thatyou and I met in twenty sixteen,
but that's when they started their podcast. We met in twenty nineteen. That's
why I said we made it throughjust so did you, noney? Because
I haven't written down on my notesbecause I wanted to ask you about them,
so I looked up. So that'swhy I had twenty sixteen in my
mind. It feels like I've knownyou since twenty sixteen. I know I
(10:54):
was, so I went with it. I'm like, I like adding some
years to our friendship because we weresuch five friends. But um, but
yeah, that actually makes more sensethat we met the year I started my
show and then you came right now. Yeah, considering they started in twenty
sixteen makes a lot of sense.Like that their show and play deserve all
the credit for what they did,and I don't take away from them at
(11:16):
all. I just for me.It's no longer like a source of where
I get my true crime, likescratched itched if you will, that's not
where I go anymore. But UMlove them. You're scratch itched. It's
scratched. Wait, I was socute. I love it. Um.
(11:37):
Well, let me jump ahead tomy MFM question because I wanted to ask
you since twenty sixteen when they began, and that was when I feel like
everyone was like, true crime isa thing now, which, of course
you and I know it's been athing since the dawn of time. Yea,
but how have you seen true crimechange or like true crime podcast,
true crime media since the twenty sixten My Favorite Murders Big we're reading cases
(12:01):
off Wikipedia. Yeah, maybe we'relaughing. Well, you know, you
go ahead and taught me about youthink, Yeah, oh my gosh,
I think it's totally changing and evolving, and it's completely the same. It's
both. It's so funny. Ifeel like, like so many things,
I'm like, well, in twentytwenty two, you couldn't start a podcast
(12:22):
called My Favorite Murder Like I justdon't think it would resonate. I don't
think people would think it was cuteor funny. I think they'd be like,
that's insensitive. And this has beena struggle for me, and anybody
who's listened for a long time knowsthat I've always delicately tried to dance the
dance of entertainment infotainment. You know. I've always felt like dialogue wanted to
be like infotainment, like we're gettinginformation. I hope to be entertaining,
(12:46):
but I'm definitely not up here makingjokes. I think it's changed. I
think the awareness has just grown tremendously. I think we're a little more self
aware of our position in the genre. Like there was none of that twenty
sixteen. There was so little,I should say, yeah, at least
not from major I'm sure people weresaying it, but the major true crime
(13:07):
narrative was not as fine tuned tothese creativities, right, Yeah, the
ones that were broken through to likethe masses that everybody was listening to,
didn't have a lot of nuance.They didn't have a lot of criminal justice
perspective, right. And for me, what happened was the more I listened
(13:28):
to true crime and understood cases andI just couldn't help but seeing themes and
all the stories, and that's whatmade me start dialogue. I'm like,
oh, you know, racism,coercion, and consent, like these are
all the things that we're talking aboutwhen we talk about true crime. It's
not as straightforward as murder. It'snot reduced down to this stay sexy,
(13:48):
don't be murdered mantra, which waspivotal for me, Like that was such
a rally cry for me at onepoint in my life. But then eventually,
like more revealed itself, I becamemore interested in so two people just
for fun, reading mostly from Wikipediacases like left a little to be desired
(14:09):
for me. Now I think theshow has evolved. I don't think it
stayed there, and I think manyother shows did too. Yeah, so
now you hear interesting conversations happen aboutthe themes at play in a story versus
just like looking at it singularly,which you should. It's a specific story
about a specific person or people.But what are the parallels and what are
(14:30):
like the bigger conclusions. I thinkthat's new. Yeah. I also think
the genres expanded, like your workwith white collar crime and fraud and Cohn
women. Yeah, not just serialkillers. It's not just serial killers and
murders, which is refreshing for mebecause that is a lot to in front,
weekend and week out. I knowa lot of people with vicarious trauma
(14:52):
who work in your crime. It'stoo much. So like, yeah,
I love to talk to people aboutyou know, personal safety, self defense,
these things that kind of can gotrue crime adjacent. That was always
my goal with Dialogue was to broadenthe conversation, bring more people into it,
and maybe just like left of centerright, not politically, I mean
meaning we're not just talking about thebulls eye of a murder and a crime.
(15:13):
It's like taking a broader approach.This conversation that we're having is making
me wonder if do you think theremight ever be a true crime a backlash
within true crime of like where we'rekind of going back to the off color
joke era because it's gotten so selfserious, Like I'm seeing that politically with
(15:37):
I'm going to generalize here, liketo a insane degree, but you know,
I feel like I read that sometimeslike gen Z is pushing back against
the millennial like super serious political likelike social justice warrior, yeah type.
And I'm wondering if we'll see thatin true crime, Like have we gotten
(15:58):
so concerned with morals and with beingserious that we're going to have and being
woke and being because I feel likesometimes people are afraid to admit that there's
anything salacious and entertaining in these storiesand it's and we kind of like that.
I know I've made a mistake myselfwhere it's like, what do you
(16:19):
mean this is entertaining, like Iam educating you. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, totally gonna see this newwave of podcasters come up who are like,
we're bringing back the Gore, Like, what do you think? I
don't know. Here's what I think. I think you're totally right, I
think, and I should be reallyclear. I've gone back and forth on
the issue. I don't think there'sanything wrong with true crime is entertainment.
(16:41):
I want to be really clear aboutthat. I think humans have loved stories
of life and death from the dawnof time. I totally so we're fascinated
by it. I don't think weneed to apologize for that. And then
I think it becomes personal preference,and that's all very subjective of like how
to do it and how to doit appropriately. I do have feelings on
that, but that is personal.Will I go back to like a super
(17:03):
like gore forward point of the tabloidy? Yeah, I don't know. What
I love It's possible. I dothink like the pendulum always shifts back and
goes hard. But what I alreadysee is like parody and satire happening in
true crime, like and satire oftrue crime. That's a good sign to
me. That it's like the genrecan't take itself too seriously, and now
(17:26):
we have like murder in the building, you know, and kind of scripted
less nonfiction approaches to crime stories.And if you watch any like Lifetime or
Hallmark movie. Now even there's apodcaster like that is like a trope of
a character now and for a goodreason, like weird weird, and both
podcasters are weirdos. And so Isee more right now a shift of being
(17:51):
able to laugh at ourselves and nottake ourselves so seriously, which I think
is really good. Yeah, solong as it's coupled with the aware that
someone died and we know that.But there is that right now. I
still think there's a big shift oflike victim centric storytelling, which I don't
think it's bad obviously. I don'tthink I need to say that. Yeah,
(18:11):
but I just listened to Bone Valley. I don't know if you listened
to it. It's about a wrongfulconviction. It's phenomenal, and I had
that host on and I really feellike they did such a beautiful job showing
us that and not telling us that. And that's a tricky way to say
that because it's a podcast. Butthey can tell us because it's auditory.
But it didn't come on in avoice over and say Michelle's life really mattered,
(18:32):
she should be at the center ofthe story, she was the victim.
Yeah. They instead revealed some verycandid audio of their responses to looking
at the pictures of her autopsy anddifferent things like that, and it was
just so real and so didn't panderto the audience like this is how you
should feel about this. It waslike, this is how we feel about
it. And thereby they kind ofset a tone of respect. So for
(18:53):
me, that's more my style,that's more my preference. But do I
think it's bad that there's a heighteneda way to make sure victims aren't getting
lost in the story or being youknow, blamed or shamed. Of course,
not like ever, never, ever, it's so tricky toy, you
know this Just as much as Ilike, I like, there's never We're
(19:14):
never going to conclude this conversation,which is good, Which is good.
It moves, I think it moveswith the times, and it ebbs and
flows. Yeah, well, canwe can we talk about seliciousness? Can
we meet? Can we gossip alittle bit? Here? I really want
(19:37):
to hear. Um, Well,I want to. I want to know
if there's any tea you want toshare. But can I start by telling
you I may have already told youthis on a podcast. I hope so.
But but can I just share withyou this podcast title that I once
learned someone wanted to make me sorry. This isn't coherent. No, there's
(19:59):
my goss I'm gonna start with mygossip. Great once upon a time,
this company that I work for thatshall remain nameless. Try to title a
podcast that I was going to workon talk Bundy to me, I discussed
this, we did I think wedidn't talk about Yes. So that's my
example of just like gag what growthnever never too much? So do you
(20:22):
have any like salacious or cheesy,like industry bits of gossip you want to
share, or like something a guestrevealed or something you've felt about someone you
interacted with. Oh, that's this, this is juicy, this is good.
I'm gonna need to think for asecond the realty I really can't share
on the mic. Um, Iwill see. I've had a lot of
(20:47):
things pitched to me, you know, for guests that I've had to say
no to. Just because they theywere the equivalent of talk Bundy to me,
content like either the book or showthat they were promoting was just a
couple of weird things, just likeone guest had a hard candy in his
mouth the whole time we talked.Did you hear it? Rabbit? Yeah,
And anyone who listened to every episode, we'll go back and they'll be
(21:08):
able to know who does. Iwon't say, but I didn't say anything
because I was just it was like, you know, definitely within the first
like twenty or thirty episodes, whereI wasn't confident enough to say, like,
hey, can we take that againwithout the lozenge. We're so socialized
to be polite, but also like, sir, I mean, I'm assuming
it's a man. It was.Of course it was a man, sir,
Get the lozenge out of your mouth. Yeah, yeah, And he
(21:33):
was like rolling it around with histongue. It was visually distracting because it
was zoom and auditorially just terrible,and like I put it out there because
again I was so new and greenthat I was like I have to put
it out there just to go backto Karen and Georgia. You know,
we did get fuck politeness from them, and I have to say that was
liberating as a girl who grew upin the church and was told to be
(21:55):
yes. Yeah, that was reallyliberating. So I don't again they do
they are do a lot of respect. Oh again, I'm not going to
name names, but I have haduh guests on that have had beef with
each other and the other has calledme and asked me to remove the others.
I had that one how uncomfortable isthat you're in the middle of almost
(22:19):
uncomfy? And also like how audayshe just like I can't imagine asking anyone
to do that. Wait, solike the second or like like guest number
two came on and then guest numberone was like take me off. I
don't want to be a no no. Guest number one said, I saw
you had guest number two on.I don't think she should be on your
feet, and here's why, liketelling me, yeah, yeah, there
(22:41):
was. There were a couple thingslike that. Honestly, like any industry,
you know, true crime is small, people know each other and they
have strong feelings. That was uncomfortable, and early on in my career as
a podcaster, I think if ithappened. Now, I would handle it
really differently. I didn't take itdown and accommodate. But now I don't
even know that I would have likeentertained the call the way that I did.
(23:04):
Yeah, the true crime space isnot immune from bad behavior by men.
So I'll just say I had acouple weird encounters like that with people
I would have really liked to haveon the podcast that unfortunately made it not
possible to do that because it gotweird. And it's not because I made
it weird. Yeah, So Idon't mean to be cryptic. It just
(23:26):
unfortunately that is a thing, andthat that very much happens in the podcast
space, I think to women abit. Yeah, so creepers in full
every industry. That's exactly right.It doesn't matter if the industry is all
about, oh here we sent ourvictims, you know exactly. Yeah right,
(23:56):
Well, what about like super positiveexperiences you've had with guests or at
conventions? You know, is therea time you were just totally starstruck someone
was even more amazing than you thanyou answer, and I'll let you off
the hook here, Like obviously theanswer is me, so you don't have
to say me no, I'm reallyassumed. I'm really glad you made that
(24:18):
caveat, because that would be myfirst response. Don't ask all my guests
back a second time. So several, I mean, there's several guests that
I've turned into friends. And thereare some people who I was kind of
like, oh, this will befine, but turned out to be amazing.
And then there's ones that you thinkthis is going to be an amazing
interview and it's fine. So Ialways love when that happens. So,
(24:41):
for example, I was really excitedwhen I got Paul Holes, because who
wouldn't be he was, He's PaulHoles. Even though our he's almost too
young to be our grandpa. Whatis he to us? Like our uncle?
Yeah, he's definitely too young tobe our grandpa. Uncle. Yeah,
it's a true crime uncle like totallyyeah, which also sounds a little
(25:03):
creepy, but uncle's uncle is unfortunately, but I understand where we're trying to
place him in the in the friendlyneighbor, in the friendly Okay. So
I was thrilled to have him on, and I knew it was going to
be good, but I actually thoughtit was going to be just pretty like
wrote and like your typical Paul Hole'sinterview, but it was right when his
memoir came out, and he wassuper vulnerable and he really you know,
(25:29):
went there. But he was alsosuper vulnerable in his book, which I
also was surprised by. So Iread his memoir and I was really blown
away by what he revealed. Andso that interview means a lot to me
because I think a lot of peoplestarted listening to me because of that interview,
and it went far and wide becauseof him. But the interview itself
was just so solid and strong,and like I think there was just a
lot of good energy between us inthe conversation. Well, let me just
(25:53):
say right now, you're a greatinterviewer, and that is not a given.
Like it might sound easy to justit down and ask a bunch of
questions and it kind of seems likethe other person does most of the talking,
but it's not a skill everyone has. You do so much research.
Your questions are so good. Youdefinitely do more research than I do anytime
I interview anyone. So I thinkyour listeners to hear me say that,
(26:18):
because it's you're very skilled at whatyou do. Well, I think I've
gotten more skilled I mean, Ithink I maybe have a natural aptitude.
But your first interview, it's stillone of my favorites, but it's very
it's rough. Now. I thinkit would sound different if I did it
today, and that's good. Itshould me and a half years later,
right, Yeah, but thank you. I appreciate that. I do really
(26:41):
enjoy doing it. Other interviews thatkind of have left an impression, Mani
Tafari, I've never stopped thinking aboutsome of the things you said. I
mean, just like one liners thatreally changed my perspective. And I would
say his conversate our interview as apivotal shift for me kind of thinking more
about the criminal justice system on thedefendant side, like how important defendants rights
(27:03):
are, which is a little counterto the narrative of like the bad guys
and you know we put the victimson a pedestal and throw the other guys
away, and just how essential itis for our own rights, all of
ours as citizens, that we protecteven people who do bad things, because
we want our rights protected. Hewas very instrumental in me understanding the bigger
(27:23):
picture on that, and we've stayedin touch and you know, collaborate on
different things now so that's another one. There's so many women I've had on.
I've probably had on more women thanmen in total, and you know,
probably less household names, but justpeople doing incredible work. Like the
most recent one that really sticks withme as a series I did on consent,
(27:47):
and this woman named Joyce Short who'shere in New York and she her
organization lobbies for legislation change around consentbecause there is no legal definition of consent
in most states, so rape andsex crimes are very hard to prosecute when
there's no consensus on what consent is. And it just like the fact that
that's someone's career, that that's whatthey've done for decades and decades, and
(28:08):
it was on the heels of herown sexual assault and trauma in a very
different era of our country. Thatblew me away. And I think and
I got a lot of feedback fromthat one that people learned a lot about
consent that they hadn't heard of before. And then a series I did on
it was called Missing, Murdered,and the Media, and it was sort
of those three topics, right,how the media portrays who is missing and
(28:30):
murdered, Why we talk about whowe talk about and I had just the
coolest array of women doing deep academicand entertaining, so some more podcasters,
some more academics coming in to talkabout that I learned so much. So
mostly it was like that it wasjust me learning every time and leaving just
(28:51):
knowing so much more than I didwhen I started. And that's like the
biggest thrill for me. Well,that feeds perfectly into my next question,
which is, have you changed yourmind about anything because of your show?
Probably I would not talk to thepolice if they wanted to question me about
something about something that I own,crime or anyone's car Um. I would
(29:12):
be a witness if I knew somethingto be true, and maybe i'd still
bring a lawyer. But I mean, if they wanted to question me about
something, yeah, whether I didit or not, I'm going to assume
I didn't because I don't feel likeI have criminal tendencies at this moment in
time today. Um, but Ijust wouldn't talk to the police. I
(29:33):
just would get oh yeah, Imean, I you know, when I
guess when my show started, mykids were like twenty seventeen and fifty fourteen,
and now they're three years older thanthat. If you ask them like
what is your mom imparted to itwould be thrifting, like go to the
thrift store for your clothes, andand um, don't let the police search
(29:53):
your place at that'll warrant including yourcar and get a lawyer. I also
probably be kind and stuff. Butlike, I think they know that you
don't have to talk to the police, even if they say you do.
And I've just seen it gone backwardsso many times or sideways. I guess
this is the expression. I justit doesn't always work out, even for
innocent people with the desire to help. I started this in twenty nineteen.
(30:14):
These issues are not new, buttwenty twenty it's like, you know it
all really what it was like thetipping point with George Floyd and everything.
So that's another interview that I thinkreally left a lasting impression on me.
With Matthew Horace. He is aformer lieutenant up in Minneapolis. Grew up
as a young black man really harassedby police on the streets, but ended
(30:34):
up still pursuing a police career.And now he's written this book called The
Black, White, and the Blue, and it's the most nuanced pro law
enforcement, pro reform story and likethose sound conflicting, but they're not if
you leave room for there to benuanced and hear people's stories. And he's
so brilliant And now he's the headof security up at like MYO clinic or
(30:55):
something. He does private security,but brilliant, brilliant guy who helped me
reckon style. The desire to notthrow out you know, I'm not comfortable
yet at this point saying you know, I don't think there should be a
police force and system, yeah,which some people are there and I'm not
(31:15):
there. I have so much respectfor people who serve in law enforcement.
I just really, you know,think just like prosecutors, they should be
punished when they do things. Yea. And yeah that there needs to be
changes in policy and training and recruiting, like all of that needs to be
different than I've had like probably dozensof experts on talking about very specific ways
(31:37):
they could start tackling that, likehigher you know, maybe elevating the standards
of who you let in. Wouldthat look like? So, where what
were we talking about? What You'vechanged your mind that I talked to the
police, But I still appreciate them. I just don't want to to think
because I've also had so many copson former law enforcement retire current so much
(32:00):
respect and admiration. Um, Ijust I see both sides of it,
and I recognize my position in theecosystem, and it's one where I haven't
had a lot of bad run insbecause I'm because of who I am,
So I just don't want to benaive about the realities. But uh,
it's a tough one. Yeah,it's a tough one. It's a it's
a big one. What about somethingyou've seen people get wrong again and again?
(32:25):
And I thought of this because Iwas thinking about your trivia show.
You know, is it can belike is it? It can be a
fact like people always say Charles Mansonwas a serial killer, but right right,
annoying one or or an assumption,but like, don't I think I'm
surprised continually by how new people thinktrue crime is. And I love that
(32:47):
you said that right at the topof our conversation today, that you and
I both know because you and Ihave talked at nauseum about this being such
an ancient human part of history.But I think I'm surprised when I hear
someone you know, maybe date itmuch more recent as a recent phenomenon when
I've really come to understand that there'snothing new about it. It's just taken
(33:09):
on a new shape and form.And you know, oh, I've got
one. I think people assume it'sthe bad guys in jail, and you
know that goes one in jail isthe one who did it? You mean,
yeah that like everyone in prison saysthey didn't do it. They all
are, they are all guilty whenthe estimates, you know, according to
(33:30):
some organizations are up to like minimumfive percent or innocent up to twenty So
so that's you know, a realmisconception is just that everybody that's in prison
belongs there. Yeah, or likethe confession means they did it, you
know exactly that cow that a confession. Nobody would ever confess to something that
(33:51):
they didn't actually do when in reality, and that goes back to why I
would never you know, talk withthat a lawyer. It's amazing when they
turn up pressure on you and haveother maybe smaller crimes hanging over your head,
there's all less things they can do, including make you physically uncomfortable,
keeping you in a room overnight,not feeding you, to get you to
say what they want you to say, so. Yeah, false confessions can
(34:14):
happen. Anyone can join a cult. Anyone can be conned. I might
add those people they could never that'sa great one. I would never join
a cult. I've been pretty vocalabout that. There's a cult for everyone,
and it's just a matter of itfinding you at the right time and
the wrong time. But the righttime for the cults, wrong time for
(34:35):
you. Yeah, there's no beingimmune to let's say the three c's,
cults, cons and police coercion.There you go. I love it.
You can figure out a way tomake that snappier and sell. I will
something about like, don't forget totake your vitamins. See, don't be
conned and join a cult or getcoerced into a confession quadruple. See you
(35:00):
mentioned getting your true crime itch scratchedearlier. Used to be from my faite
murder. Where do you get yourtrue crime now? Or are you over
true crime? Do you not consumeit anymore? M great question. I
won't say I'm over it, butI am far less of a consumer than
(35:22):
I used to be. And Idon't know if that's just a occupational hazard
of the job, but my otherpodcast, which is another reason why I'm
I would add that to my whynow, Like I have another podcast with
the Coast Melissa called Criminality, whichis reality TV and true crime intersection Genius,
genius, super fun and a lighter, and I will say reality TV
(35:46):
is a really nice escape from truecrime, although true crime is infiltrating reality
TV because these people keep making terriblechoices of not paying their taxes. I
get it more now from books andlike episodic series. I would say podcasts,
but not just weekly anthology never endinglike mine. Like I don't listen
(36:07):
to any shows. I also thinkthat's just because when you're a podcaster,
you can't like listen to that much. I've listened to all the guests that
I have on to their shows.But I think I'm reading more. I'm
reading the books of my guests.I'm reading books my guests recommend, and
I'm watching more shows like The WhiteLotus, which is crimy, but you
know it's Prestige TV. It's not. I'm not watching the Casey Anthony doc
(36:30):
which everyone's talking about, no boo. I'm just not to watch the Dahmer
one that everyone was talking about.I just I'm not over it. I'm
a little fatigued, and that mightbe part of the break too, is
that maybe I just don't even wantto like contribute to it for now.
(36:51):
Definitely not gonna go on the recordsaying like I'm over True Crime and I'll
never listen, watch or read itagain because that's not true. But I'm
fatigued for sure. Yeah, Ihear you. I consume almost nothing true
Crime. I'm trying to think it'slike a hint, you know, yeah,
I already know the story of Dahmer. Thank you, Like I already
(37:14):
like have pretty much made up mymind about Casey Anthony. Thanks but no
thing. So Okay, this iskind of a tricky question, but you
know, we've seen True Crime tryingto address its blind spots over the past
couple of years, and maybe it'salways been doing that. Do you can
you use your fortune telling powers andguess what is the next blind spot that
(37:37):
we're going to have to grapple with? Free That is a crazy good question,
like really really thoughtful and something I'venever thought about or considered one of
our blind spots that might continue tobe revealed. I think it's starting.
Is also like our own role intrue crime and what we do to in
(37:59):
two ways, so on the entertainmentside and then on the actual side of
criminal justice, meaning for instance,Casey Anthony, if people don't watch in
droves, you know they probably won'tmake another tell all with someone Yeah,
we don't want to hear from yes, because you know that's right. So
(38:19):
maybe the blind spot is our ownselves and like the power we wield as
concerns. But again I'm not sureto yuck anyone's yum, like, yeah,
you want to watch it, watchit. I know a lot of
people who watched it. But thatis one way that I think maybe we're
a little bit naive and thinking thatwe don't have like power within the genre.
The second is within the system.So one of the biggest things I've
learned in my own blind spot beforedoing dialogue was sort of my own agency
(38:44):
as a voter in my jurisdiction,so voting for my district attorney, my
local representatives, we can really havean impact on sentencing and bail reforms.
Of those are things you feel stronglyabout on either side. You know,
politically you have a say, andthose are elections that aren't as put in
(39:06):
your face and easy to remember andyou know, depending where you live.
So I think that's a blind spottoo. Is just that we can complain
about our broken system. That's likeloves. We'd love to throw that around.
But you know, I'm not sayingeach of us should vote and will
make all the difference. But atleast we're not just doing nothing. And
it forces you to do a littlereading and to find out who these people
(39:28):
are that represent you in your yourstate, town or county. I love
that, Like we're used, we'reaccustomed to being a passive consumer or thinking
of ourselves as passive consumers, LikeI just lay on my couch and binge
it. I just yeah, you'resaying, right, right, nothing nothing
pertically wrong with that. But you'resaying, maybe we're being a little naive,
(39:49):
like we even if we're consuming onour couch, we are still giving
clicks, We're giving attention to thesethat's rights. So like just be aware
of that, right, you know, that's right? And U yeah,
I totally agree with you about theelection thing. I've had guests say the
same thing to me. You know, it's like these are actually the elections
where you and a handful of yourfriends voting for someone can literally make a
(40:10):
difference, which, let's be real, is not true of the bit high
profile elections in this country. That'sright, that's it. It's exciting to
me, yea is it feels moretangible, it's less abstract. The results,
you know, are they are feltand seen in your own neighborhood.
So I do I think that's reallyimportant. I wonder if there will also
(40:34):
be This isn't like so much ofa blind spot as much as a returning
to a trend that we talked aboutearlier, but a like I wonder if
we're going to stop being in denial. And by we, I don't mean
you and I, but I'm literallythinking of the Dahmer series on Netflix,
which is like making like I'm sureyou read you know, the director like
none of the victims families financial spoketo them, so it's like, okay,
(41:00):
can we can we then using thatinformation? Can you just freaking admit
it's a a bloody, entertaining storythat you chose to go ahead and make
for entertainment to make a lot ofmoney, and like, yeah, the
guy playing Damer is super method andlike kudos to him for being a good
actor, Like can we if you'regonna make it anyway, let's just admit
(41:22):
that instead of trying. I'm sonow I'm ranting, but I'm so sick
of these directors and every Bundy persondoes it too, being like this time
it's about the victims and it's like, but it isn't. And I would
literally respect you more if you werejust like this one's about Dahmer, Like
this one's about Ted, this one'sabout you know, satiating the apparently all
(41:47):
you women have you white women,you know, and like, no apologies,
you be candid Beatrice parent Yes,say what it is and who it's
for and why I would have somuch more respect. Oh, I'm with
you, and you know. Itreminds me of a guest I had on
named Lenora Claire Big shout out.She has an amazing company where she is
(42:10):
a consultant now for production companies andworks with streaming platforms like Netflix, and
they hire her to kind of bea laison with victims and help them for
crime programming. With crime programming,yes, and how so that victims aren't
re traumatized when they do decide totell a story on a documentary set.
This is what she does. It'sit's tough for her to get companies to
(42:32):
hire her, and they have bigbudgets for these movies and they don't want
to give a little fraction of itto put their money literally where their mouth
is saying, this is about thevictims. They want all those victims families
and those surviving people to come onand spill their guts, but they don't
want to pay someone to make surethat it's done screen. Yes, yeah,
yeah, you know, I wantto traumatize them. It's better TV,
(42:57):
I'm sure, right right, So, yes, I'm few on that
one. That's a great point.Okay, before we wrap up, I
just want to ask you about yourlisteners, because we've talked a lot about
guests, and we of course wouldn'tbe here where we are without people listening
to this stuff. So who areyour listeners? What's your relationship to them?
(43:20):
Oh man, such good questions,and yes, yes and yes,
So my listeners are really thoughtful peopleand really really nice. And I don't
mean that in a boring like don'thave another better descriptive word to you,
So just like they seem like reallygood people from the ones I talked to
you and hear from and I've learnedthey you know, when I think when
I started the show, I imagineda completely different audience from who my audience
(43:43):
ended up beyond they're nice people.They're nice and they're thoughtful, and they're
different from who I thought they wouldbe. I got a lot of people
writing me, well, writing workingon their dissertations feel fancy because I didn't
even finish college story. Yeah,so it could be like, Oh,
I'm doing my dissertation on you know, language and crime, and you know
(44:05):
this episode resonated because of this,and I'm like, wow, that's really
cool, because I think it wouldbe very self indulgent to get on here
and like be really sad about endingsomething like they'd be like, well,
then don't. So I just wanteveryone to know I've really mixed feelings about
this, Like I got a littleemotional thinking about talking to you today about
it feels surreal. It doesn't feelreally yet. This has been like such
(44:27):
a consistent practice of mine weekly forthree and a half years. It's amazing.
But that said, I don't thinkit's over dialogue. The feed will
stay open and alive. The episodesyou can go back to. People can
still discover it, and if Ido a new show, it depends with
whom I'm working. It could beon this same feed, So stay subscribed
(44:49):
and followed on wherever you listen.Specifically, I have a couple something I
started doing that my listeners might notknow is associate producing other shows, like
I have clients where I I'm partof the kind of the concepting and storytelling
of other podcasts. Actually, thetwo I've worked on neither our true crime,
so I'll probably have stuff in theworks that isn't true crime. And
(45:12):
so you could follow me on mypersonal Instagram, which is I'll put in
the show notes, but it's athigh underscore. It's Rebecca saying Twitter handle
at high underscore, it's Rebecca.I'll probably let the dialogue Twitter and Instagram,
you know, they'll stay there,but I probably won't be very active
there. So people can keep intouch with me on my personal social media,
my website Rebecca Sebastian dot com thatwill have any updates. And again
(45:35):
I can't say too much more,but I have some really exciting projects in
the works. God willing fingers crossedall the good thinking in twenty twenty three,
I should have some cool things toshare. So definitely, you know,
don't disconnect, stay in touch withme, because there's definitely more work
I want to do. It's justI need to like kind of recalibrate between
(45:55):
this and the next thing. Yeah, okay, it sounds like it's not
a good bye, it's a seeyou later. For sure. It's a
subscribed Yes, it's a dialogue.Isn't dead, it's just resting. It's
still accepting gifts coffee shop gift cards, but not accepting mean messages. I'll
say that right now is always closeto me. Not that your listeners would.
(46:22):
There's a straggler getting through. Theythink they can, you know,
through. Don't even think of allof dialogue listeners. You are not welcome
here, Casey Anthony, Yeah,shut it out of here, hush your
mouth. Nobody cares. Oh mygosh. Well, thank you Rebecca for
having me on, to have youon this. Yeah, I think of
(46:50):
anyone else, honest, well,I did think of anyone else. I
thought of one hundred and fifty fiveother else's and I'm like, it can
only be Tory. We have tobegin and end with us, and this
as always, it's just I lovetalking with you. And that's why I
wanted to do it this way.Same Tory listeners, everybody, thank you
so much for killing the small talkso many times over the last three plus
years. Truly, it's just beenthe greatest gift. And as Tori said,
(47:13):
it's not goodbye, it's see youlater and soon hopefully. Please stay
in touch. Hie, excuse me, sorry, let me stop this episode
right here. My name's Heavier Leva. I'm the host of Pretend and Criminal
Conduct Podcast. I am putting togetherthis finale for Rebecca, but she doesn't
(47:36):
know that. I got a fewof our podcasting friends to send her off.
Rebecca, thank you for having meon Dialogue. My personal favorite was
when we did the business of Cults. I know that you know that we
would both join a cult if wefound the right one. I know we're
not going to hear from you herein Dialogue, but I really hope you
don't join a cult. We reallylike you anyway. Good luck with the
(48:00):
rest of your career. I cannotwait to see what you have next.
Hi, Rebecca. Melissa here cohost of Criminality Podcast. Criminality Podcast,
where you can find Rebecca every otherFriday. On her other show, is
that appropriate to plug there. I'mnot sure, but I did it.
Rebecca. You've done such amazing thingswith dialogue, and I'm so thankful that
(48:20):
you decided to do criminality with me. What a weird message that must have
been to have received from me,who you barely knew, but you had
sent me pictures of Sonia Morgan throughoutthe town of New York, New York
City, if you will, Andso I felt like we were close enough
at that point to ask you tojoin me in co hosting a reality crime
(48:42):
show. And we've been doing thatfor two years and it's been so much
fun and I love getting to knowyou. You're the Judy to my Jen
and I'm glad we figured out thatcomparison pretty recently, and I learn a
lot from you. How am Igoing to end this? I'm so thankful
to be in your orbit. Thatfunds like a very real Housewives thing to
say. I'm so think well tobe in your orbit. Okay, I
don't know how long other people aretaking, so I'm going to end it
(49:04):
here. You're the best. Keepdreaming and kill the small talk. Hey,
Rebecca, Lady year from True CrimeCases. When Javier asked us to
say goodbye. I wanted to belike Rick Astley and never let you go.
However, you are such an incredibleand talented creator that I know whatever
it's next in your journey, youwill be incredible at it. So thank
you again for your support over theyears, and I will loudly be cheering
(49:28):
you on from the sidelines. HeyRebecca, it's Lance. I'm just dropping
you a quick note thanking you forthe amazing work you did on Dialogue.
You created such a brilliant show andI'm so sad to see that it is
ending officially, But I get it. I understand that all good things must
come to an end at some point, and I know that you have probably
(49:50):
one hundred and fifteen equally genius ideasready for prime time. As the kids
say, you are a fantastic talent, an amazing person, and you'll forever
be a gentleman farmer. Have agreat holiday season. I can't wait to
see and hear what you come upwith next. Hey Rebecca, it's Jason.
(50:14):
What a journey it's been. Can'tthank you enough for embracing me as
part of your show as a friend, introducing me to so many wonderful people
in the true crime podcasting space,and I'm just so proud of what you've
accomplished. I'm excited for your nextchapter, and I hope that you know
(50:37):
what good work that you have done, and I know that you will continue
to do. I wish you thebest, and you know if you ever
need me, I'm always here.Good luck. Let's love to you.
Hey, Rebecca, it's doctor Shilohand Doctor Scott. We just want to
let you know that we are sohappy that you put together Dialogue. It
(50:59):
had more heart and curiosity than anyother show in the true crime genre.
I just appreciated that you established veryearly on for our group and for a
lot of other casts out there,that there's a moral center and there's integrity
to this genre. I think you'rean inspiration and that inspiration is going to
(51:19):
go into all of your future endeavors, and I can't wait to see what
you do. You're amazing.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.