April 10, 2024 • 38 mins
Don't miss this thought-provoking sequel to our conversation with J. T. Torres, Director of the Center for Teaching and Learning at Quinnipiac University!
We examine the issues facing higher education today, such as the cost of tuition and the need for curriculum reform.
Join us and be part of the discussion!
J.T. Torres co-authored the book "Situated Narratives and Sacred Dance: Performing the Entangled Histories of Cuba and West Africa" with another Digication Scholar, Jill Flanders Crosby: https://www.amazon.com/Situated-Narratives-Sacred-Dance-Performing/dp/1683402065
Also mentioned in this episode is a Book by AAC&U President Lynn Pasquerella: https://www.aacu.org/publication/what-we-value-public-health-social-justice-and-educating-for-democracy
To pick J.T. Torres' brain even more about AI, read: https://www.facultyfocus.com/articles/teaching-with-technology-articles/ai-eroding-ai-a-new-era-for-artificial-intelligence-and-academic-integrity/
For more information about this podcast, please visit our podcast website using the link below: https://bit.ly/3MfBqbo
Listen on Apple Podcasts using the link below: https://apple.co/3OkFVEn
Follow us on Social Media!
Twitter: https://bit.ly/3M9J7Qt
Facebook: https://bit.ly/3OgnIYw
Instagram: https://bit.ly/3Mjm4D8
Please visit our website at https://bit.ly/3IgGVFP
#HigherEducation #CurriculumReform #AffordableTuition
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you will hearpart two of my conversation with J.
T.
Torres, Director of the Centerfor Teaching and Learning,
Quinnipiac University.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication ScholarsConversations can be found on
(00:22):
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
You know, we'd already talked about,sort of a lot of mainstream, um, you
know, sort of views of higher educationtoday and some of it's not in a positive
way because some, you know, I thinkthat we can probably agree that, you
know, cost is definitely an issue.
(00:44):
Um, you know, affordability, of course,you know, we, you know, like, and, and,
and, and, and to be inclusive, that's awhole other, you know, A thing to throw
into the mix of factors, but I, I, Ido want to talk about the product, the
experience of higher education itself.
You talked about first yearexperience, which you love.
(01:05):
I love it too, but a someone who's eagerto become, you know, X, whatever it
is, a nurse, an engineer or whatever.
Right.
You know, I've seen people who are like,either themselves or their parents, you
know, being frustrated that, can I justgo take that computer science class?
(01:27):
Can I just go write code today?
Or if I'm a nurse, can I justlearn how to, you know, do, perform
some procedures with, you know,with, with a patient or, you know,
give me some hard biology, right?
Why am I taking this class?
That sets, you know, ecologicalstudies of, you know, um, of
(01:48):
food and agriculture and society.
Why am I, why am I going to have to dothat if I'm going to become a nurse?
I feel like I have some good answers,but I think yours is going to be bad.
So I Well, I don't, I don't know.
I don't know because I, as I'mhearing you articulate that and
we run into that a lot here.
So, you know, when I say here again, aprofessional university means that the
(02:10):
way we market and the way we recruitstudents means that we're promising
them fast tracks to the professionsthat they want, to the salaries that
they want, the careers that they want.
We get a lot of students whoask those questions, right?
Like, why do I have to doa general ed curriculum?
Why do I have to think critically?
Why do I have to, you know,be in these courses, right?
That's, that's frequent here,especially because of the university.
(02:31):
Um, and I have to say, I don't,I have a lot of empathy for those
students asking those questions.
I think our curriculumneeds a lot of revision.
I don't just mean Quinnipiachigher education in general.
Um, and I think there's a lotof limitations because of,
because of accreditation, right?
We're just used to doingthings in certain ways.
We're used to assessing whatwe're doing in certain ways, and I
(02:51):
don't think curriculum Um, reformor even transformation has kept
up with the changing landscape.
So I have empathy for those students.
I think that they've been messagedthroughout their entire lives to
get your salary as fast as you canget your career as fast as you can.
So we can't blame them forasking those questions.
What we have to do in themeantime is Remind them why
(03:13):
those, those topics are important.
This goes back to the just in caseversus just in time learning, right?
Um, we cannot keep doing the justin case education, um, because
it's too expensive, right?
I also have that point of empathybecause tuition is so expensive.
If I'm coming to school to be a nurse,um, and I don't know, you know, that
I can benefit from having a muchbroader interdisciplinary perspective.
(03:35):
If no one's ever explained thatto me and I'm paying 70 to 100,000
dollars depending on the universitythat I go to to be a nurse.
I want that to be as cheapas possible and I want, and I
don't want to incur those debts.
So I am going to ask those questions.
Why am I here?
Right.
And I think that's totally legitimate.
What we have to do is go back tothat just in time education, right?
So when I have students, um,I'll just speak to my experience.
(03:58):
I've had students ask why they doneed to take a first year writing
class or why they're takingan ecological literacy class.
Class.
And you know, the class isn't calledthat, but why are they going to
sit in a semester where they'rereading about food and agriculture?
I have to start right awaywith the student experience.
What do you eat?
What do you care about eating?
Um, have you known anybody who'shad foodborne illness, right?
(04:20):
Start with this place of desire.
Um, start with this place of connection.
One thing that I've, I've done is I'vetried to jump out ahead of that question.
So I, you know, we have a pretty robustSchool of Health Science, um, we have
lots of nursing students here, um, lotsof OT, (Occupational Therapy) students,
um, so I, I get a lot of School ofHealth Science students and they come
(04:41):
in with those same prerogatives, right?
They just want to know whendo I get to be a nurse, right?
When do I get certified?
And so I don't rack up allthese, all these student loans.
Um, First day of class, I ask them,I make it an icebreaker, a community
building activity where I say, um,you know, some of your nurses, some of
your engineers, but we're going to readabout the environment this semester
as an introduction about yourself.
(05:02):
Can you tell me how you think your futurecareer connects with the environment?
Right?
And then they come out just becauseI prompted them and I made it an
environment where it's conversational.
I'm not lecturing.
I'm just asking.
Here's a thought experiment.
What do you think the connections are?
And I'll.
Regularly hear from, uh, students,the nursing students who will say
something like hospitals createan enormous amount of waste.
(05:23):
Here's an article I found that talksabout the weight, the environmental
waste of, of pharmaceuticals, of, of the,um, of single use protective equipment.
Right?
And then they come out and theystart saying like, Oh, wow, there's
an environmental impact here.
My goal.
A large goal for everybody is tojust realize everything is connected.
Um, my favorite movie iseverything, everywhere, all at once.
(05:44):
All right, and so I, I want tocreate that, but in a classroom.
I just want people to see thatall the multiple universes that
are out there connect in some way.
And if you just, if you're open to that,if you realize that there's no such
thing as an individual course, as anindividual human or individual profession.
Every decision we make hasan impact on someone else.
Not only are we more likely tohave empathy and inclusivity, but
(06:05):
we're also understanding how thiscourse connects with this course.
I think that's lovely.
And I, by the way, I also agree with you.
I want to go back a little bit on that.
Um, you had mentioned about,you know, we, we do need a um
reform in, in higher education.
Um, it's, it's really far from perfect.
(06:28):
And, and a part of it is, youknow, like you were saying, how
we assess them and accreditation.
Um, maybe for those who don'tunderstand the, all of the
relationships, what does that mean?
Like what's accreditation?
What has it got to do with it?
And why do we, why is it so broken?
Like if, if we, you know, JT just said itlike it's it's don't get me in trouble.
(06:54):
I didn't say that.
I'm just joking.
I'm joking.
This is a part that you know, umis bottlenecking us from yeah,
it is a bottleneck to to to makemake big strides into An improved
version of it that I think many ofus can Could see and would like to
see, and it's worth a lot of money.
(07:14):
There's a lot of research, you know,they say it can save a lot of time.
It can make all those students whoare asking those questions, they
will provide an answer to them.
So why are we doing like,what's the, what's the hold up?
Yeah, no, really great question.
Um, and it also relates back to ourearlier conversation about the falling,
the declining trust in higher education,accreditation serves to make sure That we
(07:38):
are doing what we say we are doing, right?
It is a very, veryimportant mechanism, right?
It just makes, it's quality control.
It makes sure that when you go to oneuniversity, um, and you accumulate
a certain amount of credits, um, inpursuit of a major, those credits
should have the same value as adifferent university that you go to,
regardless of prestige and name, right?
It's just making surethat we are delivering.
(08:00):
What we say that we aredelivering to the community.
Um, reform, um, is very, verydifficult because there's declining
trust in higher education as it is.
Um, and I don't know that it'snecessarily a broken system.
It's just a system thatworked for a different time.
I don't think the system has caughtup with the changing landscape.
Um, and it's changing so fast thatwe're all kind of confused about
(08:22):
how how we go about changing.
And, um, that landscape hasto do with, you know, falling.
Falling attendance, falling enrollment,with increasing tuition, with AI, with
the pandemic, you know, all these factorshave dramatically changed the landscape.
And so, accreditation bodies andagencies are probably not keen on a
whole new transformation right nowwhen everybody feels that the, that the
(08:46):
land underneath us is very unstable.
Um, and so, we need to finda way to maintain trust.
Uh, a quick example is, you know,I love using ePortfolios because I
believe in holistic assessment, right?
The power of an e portfolio again,you're making learning visible, but
you also get to tell the story ofyour own learning of your journey.
You get to see it happen.
(09:07):
You get to include the data that'srelevant to you, and you get to
reflect back on what you're doing.
Um, that's really difficultto share across massive
bodies of stakeholders, right?
Institutions to, to, to It'sso much easier for us to
share grades, for instance.
Um, so I love ePortfolios, especially inthe context of the ungrading movement.
I work with a lot of educators Kthrough 12 or in college who want to
(09:30):
find ways to ungrade their classes.
And I am philosophically behindThe concept of ungrading, right?
I understand that grades are aninstitutional communication mechanism.
It's just easier for us to say whosomebody is in terms of a GPA than
it is to say, look at this brilliantePortfolio they have, right?
Like, we just don't have enough peoplein the room to go in that direction.
(09:51):
So while I'm philosophically behindungrading, I also reflect on if
colleges and universities like imaginetomorrow if all the universities
said, we're going to get rid of gradesbecause we want to be more equitable.
My heart would be jumping upand down, but I have to imagine
from the public perception.
It's going to look like.
So then you're a degree mill.
How are you evaluating students, right?
(10:12):
Like, where's the quality control?
And then I imagine accreditationbodies, right, are going to freak out
in terms of like, how do we know thatwhat you're submitting as artifacts,
right, and artifacts could be anythingfrom a student essay to a paper to a
project to exam scores, um, how do weknow that these artifacts are aligned
with, um, a certain level of rigorthat we expect from higher education?
(10:33):
So I think that even when our heart isbehind the changes that we need to make,
the current social and cultural contextaround higher education is making it,
um, not, I'm trying to avoid using theword difficult because I don't think
it's necessarily about difficulty.
I think it's more about retainingand restoring public trust that we
(10:54):
are rigorous, that we are holdingpeople to high expectations, um,
and then how, How can we do thatin ways that's more meaningful?
Right.
Cause we don't want the very mechanismthat we designed to, um, make sure that
the checks and balances are in place tostop it from actually catching up with,
you know, what, to actually make it make,uh, uh, uh, to, to deliver the actual
(11:18):
Product that it's supposed to do, right?
Yep, exactly.
Because it's, uh, it's sort of,in some ways, um, like you said,
it hasn't caught up fast enough.
And that, as a result, it's, um,and it happens in a lot of regular
things that are regulated, right?
Um, in, in the world.
Um, I think AI is actually a reallybig, you know, um, part of it.
(11:41):
We're not able to, you know, legislatenearly fast enough, you know, comparing
to how fast the technology is moving.
Yep.
You know, like, and, and it's, it's, it's,it's It's, uh, it's, it's not only cat
and mouse because it implies that you caneventually catch them, but it's not like
a runaway train, you know, like, um, so,so I think it, it is hard and I, I do.
(12:08):
You know, for me, I worry, I worrya little bit about sort of the,
there is that public trust, butthere's also just the, we have
a lot of choices today, right?
People can get a, some micro credentialsand some, they could learn how to go, they
can go, if they want to learn, so theycan take an online course of some sort,
(12:30):
and that might be all that they needed.
They actually didn't reallywant all this four years worth.
Um, and, um, and, and with all of thechoices, it really does imply that, you
know, the landscape of learning couldjust be really, and the, the, the, the
landscape of learning with credentialsis also another sort of weird part
(12:52):
too, because then accreditation comeswith the credentialing part of it.
And, and, and, and, and, and I will saythat, I don't know, as a, as someone
who is maybe on the hiring side of,um, of, of, you know, where we hire,
um, People at our company, um, youknow, we look these days a lot less at
(13:14):
their degree and where they came from.
We look a lot more than the workthat they're able to produce.
Um, and the kind of quality ofthe work, the quality of the
personality, the cultural fit.
And we are sometimes looking at that, youknow, degree, not even as a requirement.
It's just, okay, it's interestingthat you went there and did this.
(13:36):
Um, and that it explains yourtrajectory of how things worked out.
Do you know what I mean?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
If you did that, you must know this.
Um, at least in my field, right?
In, you know, hiring programmers or,you know, even a customer support person
or, You know, like I, I'm sure it's alittle bit different if you're hiring,
(13:56):
um, you know, like, uh, like you said,a nurse, you know, I, I probably want
someone who actually were, you know,were vouched for that they know how
to, you know, perform, you know, youknow, these medical procedures safely.
But, but for a lot of other, other fields,actually, you know, we're not looking at
that as a, as a, as a requirement really.
(14:17):
Right, right.
It's less about, like, what badgesyou've earned in your, your scout sash
and more about, like, what, what areyou able to do with that information?
Right.
I really want to see you tie the knot.
I don't want to see the factthat you can tie knots, you know?
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that's, that's what I meanabout authentic assessment, right?
(14:38):
And so working with faculty in my center,it's all about, you know, let's just
stay with the example of tying knots.
If tying knots is the thing thatwill make you a professional in a
particular field, then why don'tyou just assess them on tying knots?
Don't just give them anexam about what a knot is.
Right.
And so that's where that movement.
Um, I, that's where I'm always tryingto push the movement of assessment,
(15:01):
the culture of assessment intothese authentic simulated spaces.
Um, yeah.
And then, and then back to thatchallenge of accreditation.
How do we report?
That, that, that competency or thatability, um, or that outcome, how do we
communicate that and report that, um,within our institutions and to other
institutions, like in the crediting bodyto show that, yeah, there's growth and
(15:23):
we're doing what we say that we're doing.
Um, we're just using these authenticforms of assessment so students can do
rather than just credentialing them.
All right.
Let's, let's talk a little bit about AI.
All right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, we already mentioned it a few times.
I, I think that these days you can'thave conversations without talking about
it somehow or talking to it somehow.
Yeah, right.
(15:44):
Um, I think we should talka little bit about it.
I, I want to first, um,point out one thing.
Hopefully we don't stayon this for too long.
But, a lot of institutions, whenthey hear AI, they are still today.
Yeah.
Um, you know, sort of plagiarism and, youknow, academic honesty and cheating is
(16:10):
the Sort of the first thing, you know,that many people are, you know, it's,
it's, it's, if we mention AI, that'sgoing to be one of the top three things
in most people is the top one thing.
Um, so what's going on there?
Can you tell us?
Um, yeah, I'll try my best.
(16:31):
I can't, I don't know exactly what's,what's going on, but, uh, yeah.
Um.
You know, first thing, plagiarismis older than AI, right?
Like we know that this has been a concernfor many years, um, for everybody.
And this goes back to our, ourrelationship with assessment
that's more about accountabilitythan it is about improvement.
(16:52):
Right?
And it's not...
we haven't been so concerned with, letme assess where you are, low stakes, so
I can see where you are, so I can helpyou improve wherever you are, right?
It's always been, let me assess whereyou are, because this assessment is
going to have implications for yourfinancial aid, for your scholarship, for
your career, for your ability to say it.
Like, we just create all thesepressures that we inadvertently
(17:13):
message to students, you better pass;regardless of how you pass, right?
Like you want to keep your financialaid, you better pass this class, right?
So we create all these external factors,um, that AI is not really one of them.
I don't think AI actually motivatescheating and, and this, and I know this
is my own opinion anecdotally, but it'salso based on the research, um, very
(17:34):
new emerging research into AI use or.
Even outsourcing assignments, right?
Like one of the most popular waysthat students have plagiarized
before AI is to go onto websiteswhere you can pay somebody else
to do the work for you, right?
So it's not necessarilycheating as we've known it.
It's a cottage industry of cheating.
Um, and looking at those for thosewho didn't know, I, I looked it up.
(17:56):
It was between 800 to 1, 000.
You get a guaranteed "A" yep.
Yeah, it's a very known thing.
Students know where they are, you know,if you just go, you know what, I just
need to get an ECA on this, you cando that, and they will do everything.
Including creating thepresentation and giving you notes.
(18:17):
If you should, you need toshow up in person to make that
presentation at the final day.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So that's been available, right?
And that's been one of the mostcommon forms of plagiarism.
So I'm just sharing this tosay I don't think AI created
plagiarism or even exacerbated it.
What it's done is complicate it.
Complicate our understanding of itbecause now there's an easier route.
(18:38):
Um But, we also know that when studentsare, you know, going back to belonging
and inclusive classrooms, um, we alsoknow that intrinsic motivation is a very,
very powerful human thing, phenomenon.
Um, if a student is engaged in somethingthat they're doing, if they have that
interest in something that they'redoing, they are more likely to do it.
(19:01):
Even when shortcuts are available.
So let's go back to video games as anexample, because of course, um, there have
been things like GameShark, their AI hasbeen part of the video game community and
world for years, where it's very easy toprogram a bot to play the game for you.
So you get the rewards from the gamethat you want, whether it's the digital
currency of the game, or whether it'soutfits for your avatar, or whether
(19:24):
it's just, you know, to show up on aleaderboard and to brag to the world that
you're the Madden player or NBA 2K player.
You can actually program a bot todo the video game playing for you.
Now, there hasn't been a lot of formalresearch into this use, but I, um, I
have to believe that the video gameindustry would collapse if people weren't
actually playing the games anymore.
(19:45):
Right, so it, here comes this, this,Mode for you to cheat the thing that
you love doing and people don't use itor at least abuse it too much, right?
They might, even if it's incorporated,they're still playing the game.
They're still involved in the community.
They're still doing the thingthat they're being asked to
do by these game developers.
The involvement is still there.
The engagement is still there.
The stakes are a lot lower.
They don't even have to win.
(20:07):
They're just doing it for theirown personal satisfaction.
So they're more likely to actuallydo it and go into the flow, right?
And, and be engaged in that moment.
And I think we can treateducation the same way, right?
So when I am working with, uh, withmy class, you know, when you talk
about project based learning, I breakeverything down into these separate parts.
Um, I've I'm doing my best to lowerthe stakes, you know, because I
(20:27):
want students to make mistakes.
I want them to fail so they can learn fromfailure, not fail and then have that "F"
follow them around the rest of their life.
And when I do those things,um, at least in my own class
surveys and my own, you know, um,research, my own action research.
Students are less likely to take ashortcut regardless of what it is.
It's even if it's Chat GPT, I,I ran a study last semester.
(20:48):
Um, and because of the choices thatthey're making, because they say things
like this topic's really important tome, or they might say things like the
way the assignment is broken up, it'sactually more work for me to use AI.
Um, it's easier for me to just do thework because you've broken it out into
chunks for me where I feel I have thecapability to complete this assignment.
Well, now we're not talkingabout plagiarism anymore.
We're talking about motivation.
(21:09):
And I I'd rather have the discussiongo there where like, let's talk
about how AI can help motivate.
But that in mind and thinkingabout equity, imagine a student.
So I teach writing classes.
Imagine a student who uses Englishas a second or third language.
It's not their, it'snot their home language.
It's not the language they use whenthey talk to their family members.
Um, or even when they think to themselves,it's not the language that they use.
(21:30):
And I asked the student to writean essay, just like I ask all my
other students to write an essay.
Right from the beginning, thisstudent is not at the same
starting point as everyone else.
So now there's an issue of equity.
Let's say that student uses CHAT GPT todraft an outline or even an introductory
paragraph with the goal of, I'm going totry my best to make the rest of my writing
(21:50):
look like that introductory paragraph.
I can look at that as plagiarism, or Ican look at that as leveling the playing
field, right, that now that student hasan equal starting point as everybody else.
And so for me, it's more about motivationand equity because plagiarism is a much
longer, um, An issue that had, thatwe've had to face for many more years.
(22:11):
Um, and I think it has more to dowith how engaged and involved students
are, than what tools are available.
I think it really goes into that justin time and just in case, um, area too.
Like for me, you know, like whenyou, when you go in and play Legend
of Zelda, if someone were to say.
(22:33):
Hey, let me play it for you.
You'd be like, no way.
Exactly.
I wanna get to play this.
That's the whole point.
But I, to me, I think that thereis this, um, I I've been using
this other, I'm going to throw, I'mgoing to throw this analogy to you
and see what, what you think of it.
Um, cause I can, I think peoplego, well, So, you know, Legends of
(22:55):
Zelda is fun, so is entertainment.
How can you compare thatto, you know, the textbook?
Okay, fine, whatever.
I'm going to give you a slightly differentanalogy here, because video game is
so fun that they're like, you know,oh sure, I can binge watch, you know,
Netflix for like 11 hours straight.
Is there a high productionvalue, et cetera, et cetera.
(23:16):
All right, so let's takea musician or an athlete.
Let's take an athlete that has to,train to, um, run a marathon, um,
they don't now, by the way, theydo cheat in different ways, you
know, performance and enhancingdrugs, you know, things like that.
But if you were to tell, if theywere to be told, let's say you are
(23:42):
someone who wants to run a marathon,you are not an experienced runner.
You went online, bought a course,or I read a book they gave you.
I mean, this, by theway, really does exist.
They give you these courses thatbasically said you have, you know,
four months or six months, you know,in every single week, they tell you how
many miles you should run and for howlong and how fast so that they, they
(24:05):
peak you all the way to like the weekbefore, you know, you run the marathon,
you'll be able to log about, you know,you can actually run 20 ish miles.
That week, and then theadrenaline will push you through
to the 26th and finish, right?
So people just want to finish, right?
And I'm not talking aboutultra competitor here.
Just someone who said, Hey,it's always been my bucket list.
(24:28):
And
You would, you can talk to the person,they go to week three, they're supposed
to, I don't know, run, you know, like,log eight miles that week, maybe four
times two miles a piece, all right?
You could not pay that person tohave someone else run for them.
(24:51):
Exactly.
By the way, these are hard, right?
By the time you get to the thirteenthweek, they might be running 18
miles that week, and they'rerunning, you know, six miles apart.
It's taking them a lot of time,energy, and it's not the, you know,
it's not like Legend of Zelda.
It's like they are sweating, their headis telling them to stop, please stop, you
(25:15):
have cramps, your joints not working, youare hungry, you know, all of that, right?
So you're fighting extremephysical and mental discomfort.
Um, and challenge to push yourselfto be able to do it again.
You couldn't pay this person tonot do that a hundred percent.
(25:39):
They know that if they don't doit, they can't run that marathon.
Right.
And that's what thething they want the most.
So there is, to me, this sort of, by theway, these are not people that, that's
new, like they just somehow had thistrust that this curriculum works for them.
(25:59):
Don't they?
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
They didn't, uh, students, I cometo many classes, not your class,
because you are very good atgetting them to understand that.
But if without that, there is this hugemisalignment, this huge gap that sets,
look, I don't know why I'm doing this.
So why, what does it matterif I had someone else do it?
(26:20):
Because there is this huge misalignmenton this doesn't matter to me.
Right?
The stuff that actuallydoes matter to you.
Like if you are that nurse and you'relike, Oh no, I, I really need to
learn how to perform this, this,this task because if I don't, I won't
know what to do when the patientcomes in and has this condition.
So I need to do it.
(26:41):
I can't have someone else help me do it.
Like maybe I can, so to speak, cheatby saying, well, you thought I need
to have it done, like pat down now,but I don't, yeah, I need a little
cheat sheet, so to speak, fine.
Right?
But actually I want to do it.
I want to learn it.
Um, so I think that's that trustand that misalignment that is
really, like powering a lot of this.
(27:03):
And the gap gets wedged and wedgedwider and wider and wider to the
point where a student just kindof going, yeah, I can just do it.
Hey, like, forget the AI part.
I can pay 800 and get aguaranteed a any school.
Yeah.
I just do that.
Exactly.
I mean, you're describingmotivation theory perfectly, right?
It's all about goal settingand those goals have to be
(27:24):
distal and proximal, right?
So the distal goal of, I wantto be able to run a marathon
or just complete a marathon.
Um, that's a distal goal.
I know that I can't do that tomorrow.
I can't even do thatin a year necessarily.
I need lots of training.
What's going to keep memotivated and keep me.
Um, keep me on track, you know,through the curriculum are those
(27:45):
proximal goals, goals that areclose enough to be achievable.
And when I achieve them, I can publicly,um, celebrate them and I can, and
that motivates me and encouragesme to move on to the next goal.
Those goals have toalways be in range, right?
So I think about Vygotsky's zoneof proximal development, right?
We need to constantly set goals that arejust outside of our threshold, but they
(28:05):
look like they're just in arm's reach.
I'm almost there, right?
I can, I can do fourmiles this week, right?
I, um, I, I've done two.
I just need two more and I'm right there.
And then before I knowit is 13 miles, right?
Because that goal became within mythreshold, fell within my threshold.
Um, And that's how we need toset up a curriculum, right?
And so, for example, I have, I'm a largeadvocate and we're doing this in much
(28:30):
larger areas now here at Quinnipiac, youknow, we, we tend to, the traditional
story is we cap a course, um, with itsclimax, uh, to use this, a story metaphor
with the final exam, which is high stress.
High stakes and largelydisconnected from us.
And we just do a multiple choice test.
Most many students do, right?
Or they do their 20 page research paper.
(28:50):
Um, even if they're invested in it, youknow, it might just be by the end of 20
pages of writing this, I'm done and Inever want to see this topic again, right?
It's not, we're not at a good placewhen we reach final exam week.
We bring puppies on the campus to helpdestress people because of how much
we stress them out for final exam.
So what we're doing now is we'recalling it a showcase week, right?
(29:10):
So by By the time the final exam weekcomes, at least for the College of Arts
and Science, which is going to run thishuge showcase this year, um, Instead
of asking students to take a test or tosubmit this major, onerous product, um,
we're going to hold space where theycan engage with authentic audiences.
You know, we're going to invite employers,we're going to invite community members,
(29:31):
and students are going to present tothem, here's what I did this semester.
Here's this work that I'm really proud of.
It is literally andemphatically a showcase.
Let's celebrate what you've accomplished.
That needs to work inthroughout the semester as well.
I'm constantly trying to work inthrough my syllabus, scheduled
moments of public success.
I want to set it up where thestudent cannot fail, no matter what.
(29:53):
They will succeed these, like, andso they're not truly assessments.
They're more of just a public showcaseto prove to yourself that you can do it.
You've accomplished this proximal goal.
And let's move on to the next one.
Without that, we don't knowwhat story we're telling, right?
Like, if I'm in a course and Idon't see that relevance to that
course, I'm not going to do whatthe marathon runner does, right?
(30:13):
Because I don't see the goals, and Idon't see myself chasing those goals.
I think that's, that's,that's really a great point.
That, um, that it's, it's a great wayto, to see a solution, like what you were
saying, this showcase at the end, right?
It's, it's such a meaningfulsolution that anyone can implement.
(30:36):
It is.
Yeah.
It's just a change of the storythat we tell about learning.
Like, does it have to end withsomething as dreadful as a final exam?
I, I, I like the idea.
Oh, I, I like how youdescribe that when you are.
At the end of this project, if youare supposed to, at the end, I go, I
(30:56):
would never do this again, we've likeliterally just failed them, right?
Exactly.
Like that's different from like themusician that goes, by the time I've.
Figured out how I can playthis music, play this song.
I want to keep doing it.
This is when I get to perform.
Exactly.
And I go, Oh, thankGod I can like move on.
(31:21):
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
You know, and that's, um, my, my bigpie in the sky dream is that courses
will embrace, um, edutainment, right?
Like I don't, I don't thinkthere should be a divide.
And I know a lot of people will disagreewith it, and that's, that's fine.
I, um, and I'm, I'm always happy tohave that conversation, but I do think
education should be entertaining.
(31:41):
I think entertainment is afundamental human capacity.
Um, and maybe not even human.
I think all species in some way,shape, or form are driven by the
pleasure and joy of feeling good aboutbeing in the moment and entertainment
should be an instructional strategy.
It, we shouldn't do what we can to.
Leave it at the door.
Right.
Like, like you come toschool, no joy for you.
(32:04):
Joy is not in the word school.
So, right.
Or even, even the word discipline, right?
Like, I mean, what, whatdiscipline are you studying?
I mean, that word itself, likediscipline and punishment to
echo Foucault (Michel Foucault.)
Yeah, no, that's a, that'sa, that's a good point.
Um, I, I agree with you.
I think that sort of this, you know,there, there isn't, I think it's a,
(32:30):
It's a silly correlation that, youknow, in order for you to succeed,
it's, it, you're going to put in somehard work as in unenjoyable work.
I don't think, I don't thinkthat should always be true.
You know, sometimes we do them, likeI was saying about the, the, you
know, the marathon runner you sustainthrough, you know, sort of like.
(32:52):
Serious challenges.
Um, but it doesn't, you know, I actuallythink that, um, uh, for, for many people
that talk about that, there is joy tobe have in, in, in those instances.
Right.
Um, and people talk about their runner'shigh, but I think there is at least at
(33:12):
the very minimum, that sense of, you know,like, yes, I'm going to go through this.
And at the end, it's going to havethis, you know, like, the feeling
is going to be great when I finish,like, that six miles, you know, today.
Absolutely.
Desirable difficulty.
Yeah, and I, I just think that, youknow, in education, um, a friend of
(33:34):
mine, uh, professor, um, uh, JordyGetman from Bronx Community College.
Do you know him, by the way?
No, no.
I think you'll really get along with him.
Um, she We always talk about like,this is some, sometimes it's,
you know, it's academic laziness.
It's like, we, we thoughtlike we designed this.
We know it's going to work in our head.
(33:57):
You know, we just are too lazy to evenexplain to them why this is the case.
And we don't need to convince you.
You have to do this for me as ifyou are like my, Employees, I pay,
except that it's completely not true.
You have to circle it out.
So, whatever, you know, that, thatpower dynamic of grade and this high
(34:17):
stake thing that you talked about,this grade, this, you know, this,
like, if you don't do this, you know,you're not going to get a grade.
If you don't get a grade, you'renot going to get a certificate.
Then your whole life isgoing to get ruined, right?
And you're not going to get a job.
You're not going to bequalified to do this.
And, and, and, and this, You know, createsa lot of, uh, some animosity almost, you
(34:38):
know, between, between, you know, theperson who sets out to want to learn.
That's why they even botheredapplying to a school and getting in.
And, you know, it's a lotof effort to get there.
Um, and then the person who actually tooka job, took a profession, make the career.
Many, many faculty members, you know, are.
You know, it's, uh, it's, it's somethingthat hopefully that they enjoy, you know,
(35:01):
teaching, and then there's a, there'ssome version of a passion in their head
at some point, but there is a littlegap that, that is just stopping us
from making that big, that connection.
And I think for folks like you whocan make that connection easily
with the students, because youhave a lot of empathy for them.
Because you can easily put yourself backinto that mode of Legend of Zelda or this.
(35:26):
And you have me with Legendof Zelda in your own head.
Can't wait, right?
Because if you can do that, thenyeah, as soon as they're gonna stay.
Yep.
I mean, I think, I think aboutcourse design as an epic story.
Right, like, it's the hero's journey,um, in some way, like, at the start
of every semester, every student isa hero going on their epic quest,
(35:48):
and I just want them to realize that.
And what is that elixir, right,that they're going to bring
back to that ordinary world?
What is the thing that they arelearning that they're going to bring
back to their world and improve theirworld because of becoming this hero?
Well, that's fantastic.
Um, JT, I think I can talk to you for areally long time, and maybe we should.
Um, um, talk more.
(36:09):
Um, I'm always happy to talk to you.
Yeah.
Thank you.
But this is, this is fantastic.
I really, really appreciateyou, you know, bringing it to,
to this, uh, to this podcast.
Uh, I, I love, um, Ilove the way you think.
Um, I feel like we are reallyjust scratching the surface and
there's so much that you've done.
(36:30):
I, By the way, did do some, you know,research, usually don't even do a lot
of research, but, um, I did, you know,I saw, I actually started reading some
of your, the stuff that you, you, youdid and your, your books that you did,
you wrote it, co wrote a book with,um, uh, um, another Digication Scholar.
(36:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
Jill Flanders Crosby.
Yeah.
From University of Alaska, um, on dance.
Um, yeah.
And, uh, and your own novel, um, uh,um, about, um, Cuba, is that correct?
Yep, yep, yeah, yeah, it's about,it's about a family, um, I mean,
(37:12):
it's, it's autofiction, right?
So, like, it's based on elements ofmy life, um, but just, like, a family
trying to find their identity, um,after they are forced to give up
the identity that they had in Cuba.
So it's a migration storyabout this being in Florida.
You've got, you've done somuch and then you have articles
about artificial intelligence.
(37:33):
Um, so I, I'm going to try to, um,make sure some of these things get put
into the show notes so people can golook for, look for, look for your work.
But we really need to, um, You know,get you back on so that we can, uh,
we can, we can, we can discuss moreof these topics, especially as, as,
um, you know, the, the, how quicklyAI is going to continue to change,
(37:56):
um, uh, the world and high education.
And I think there'll be, there'llbe a lot to be discussed here.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Thank you.
It's, it's at least job security becauseAI is going to change so much that
we need scholars to keep studying it.
Right.
That's right.
Okay.
All right.
Well, Thank you, JT.
Um, I appreciate everything again,and, uh, we'll, we'll talk to you soon.
(38:18):
Okay.
Thank you.
Okay.
Take care.
You too.
Coming up next, we'll be chattingwith Andre Perez, a student
at the University of LaVerne.
Here's a quick preview.
Be happy to share, share it too.
Just be able to share itand just share with anyone.
Um, and yeah, just focus on having fun.
That's the most important part.
(38:39):
And then, also, the grade helps, too.
Be serious, but also have fun with it.
It's that perfect balanceyou just gotta find.
But don't try and justmake it all academic.
Try and put your own spin on it, causethat's what a portfolio is all about.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you will hearpart two of my conversation with J.
T.
Torres, Director of the Centerfor Teaching and Learning,
Quinnipiac University.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication ScholarsConversations can be found on
(00:22):
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
You know, we'd already talked about,sort of a lot of mainstream, um, you
know, sort of views of higher educationtoday and some of it's not in a positive
way because some, you know, I thinkthat we can probably agree that, you
know, cost is definitely an issue.
(00:44):
Um, you know, affordability, of course,you know, we, you know, like, and, and,
and, and, and to be inclusive, that's awhole other, you know, A thing to throw
into the mix of factors, but I, I, Ido want to talk about the product, the
experience of higher education itself.
You talked about first yearexperience, which you love.
(01:05):
I love it too, but a someone who's eagerto become, you know, X, whatever it
is, a nurse, an engineer or whatever.
Right.
You know, I've seen people who are like,either themselves or their parents, you
know, being frustrated that, can I justgo take that computer science class?
(01:27):
Can I just go write code today?
Or if I'm a nurse, can I justlearn how to, you know, do, perform
some procedures with, you know,with, with a patient or, you know,
give me some hard biology, right?
Why am I taking this class?
That sets, you know, ecologicalstudies of, you know, um, of
(01:48):
food and agriculture and society.
Why am I, why am I going to have to dothat if I'm going to become a nurse?
I feel like I have some good answers,but I think yours is going to be bad.
So I Well, I don't, I don't know.
I don't know because I, as I'mhearing you articulate that and
we run into that a lot here.
So, you know, when I say here again, aprofessional university means that the
(02:10):
way we market and the way we recruitstudents means that we're promising
them fast tracks to the professionsthat they want, to the salaries that
they want, the careers that they want.
We get a lot of students whoask those questions, right?
Like, why do I have to doa general ed curriculum?
Why do I have to think critically?
Why do I have to, you know,be in these courses, right?
That's, that's frequent here,especially because of the university.
(02:31):
Um, and I have to say, I don't,I have a lot of empathy for those
students asking those questions.
I think our curriculumneeds a lot of revision.
I don't just mean Quinnipiachigher education in general.
Um, and I think there's a lotof limitations because of,
because of accreditation, right?
We're just used to doingthings in certain ways.
We're used to assessing whatwe're doing in certain ways, and I
(02:51):
don't think curriculum Um, reformor even transformation has kept
up with the changing landscape.
So I have empathy for those students.
I think that they've been messagedthroughout their entire lives to
get your salary as fast as you canget your career as fast as you can.
So we can't blame them forasking those questions.
What we have to do in themeantime is Remind them why
(03:13):
those, those topics are important.
This goes back to the just in caseversus just in time learning, right?
Um, we cannot keep doing the justin case education, um, because
it's too expensive, right?
I also have that point of empathybecause tuition is so expensive.
If I'm coming to school to be a nurse,um, and I don't know, you know, that
I can benefit from having a muchbroader interdisciplinary perspective.
(03:35):
If no one's ever explained thatto me and I'm paying 70 to 100,000
dollars depending on the universitythat I go to to be a nurse.
I want that to be as cheapas possible and I want, and I
don't want to incur those debts.
So I am going to ask those questions.
Why am I here?
Right.
And I think that's totally legitimate.
What we have to do is go back tothat just in time education, right?
So when I have students, um,I'll just speak to my experience.
(03:58):
I've had students ask why they doneed to take a first year writing
class or why they're takingan ecological literacy class.
Class.
And you know, the class isn't calledthat, but why are they going to
sit in a semester where they'rereading about food and agriculture?
I have to start right awaywith the student experience.
What do you eat?
What do you care about eating?
Um, have you known anybody who'shad foodborne illness, right?
(04:20):
Start with this place of desire.
Um, start with this place of connection.
One thing that I've, I've done is I'vetried to jump out ahead of that question.
So I, you know, we have a pretty robustSchool of Health Science, um, we have
lots of nursing students here, um, lotsof OT, (Occupational Therapy) students,
um, so I, I get a lot of School ofHealth Science students and they come
(04:41):
in with those same prerogatives, right?
They just want to know whendo I get to be a nurse, right?
When do I get certified?
And so I don't rack up allthese, all these student loans.
Um, First day of class, I ask them,I make it an icebreaker, a community
building activity where I say, um,you know, some of your nurses, some of
your engineers, but we're going to readabout the environment this semester
as an introduction about yourself.
(05:02):
Can you tell me how you think your futurecareer connects with the environment?
Right?
And then they come out just becauseI prompted them and I made it an
environment where it's conversational.
I'm not lecturing.
I'm just asking.
Here's a thought experiment.
What do you think the connections are?
And I'll.
Regularly hear from, uh, students,the nursing students who will say
something like hospitals createan enormous amount of waste.
(05:23):
Here's an article I found that talksabout the weight, the environmental
waste of, of pharmaceuticals, of, of the,um, of single use protective equipment.
Right?
And then they come out and theystart saying like, Oh, wow, there's
an environmental impact here.
My goal.
A large goal for everybody is tojust realize everything is connected.
Um, my favorite movie iseverything, everywhere, all at once.
(05:44):
All right, and so I, I want tocreate that, but in a classroom.
I just want people to see thatall the multiple universes that
are out there connect in some way.
And if you just, if you're open to that,if you realize that there's no such
thing as an individual course, as anindividual human or individual profession.
Every decision we make hasan impact on someone else.
Not only are we more likely tohave empathy and inclusivity, but
(06:05):
we're also understanding how thiscourse connects with this course.
I think that's lovely.
And I, by the way, I also agree with you.
I want to go back a little bit on that.
Um, you had mentioned about,you know, we, we do need a um
reform in, in higher education.
Um, it's, it's really far from perfect.
(06:28):
And, and a part of it is, youknow, like you were saying, how
we assess them and accreditation.
Um, maybe for those who don'tunderstand the, all of the
relationships, what does that mean?
Like what's accreditation?
What has it got to do with it?
And why do we, why is it so broken?
Like if, if we, you know, JT just said itlike it's it's don't get me in trouble.
(06:54):
I didn't say that.
I'm just joking.
I'm joking.
This is a part that you know, umis bottlenecking us from yeah,
it is a bottleneck to to to makemake big strides into An improved
version of it that I think many ofus can Could see and would like to
see, and it's worth a lot of money.
(07:14):
There's a lot of research, you know,they say it can save a lot of time.
It can make all those students whoare asking those questions, they
will provide an answer to them.
So why are we doing like,what's the, what's the hold up?
Yeah, no, really great question.
Um, and it also relates back to ourearlier conversation about the falling,
the declining trust in higher education,accreditation serves to make sure That we
(07:38):
are doing what we say we are doing, right?
It is a very, veryimportant mechanism, right?
It just makes, it's quality control.
It makes sure that when you go to oneuniversity, um, and you accumulate
a certain amount of credits, um, inpursuit of a major, those credits
should have the same value as adifferent university that you go to,
regardless of prestige and name, right?
It's just making surethat we are delivering.
(08:00):
What we say that we aredelivering to the community.
Um, reform, um, is very, verydifficult because there's declining
trust in higher education as it is.
Um, and I don't know that it'snecessarily a broken system.
It's just a system thatworked for a different time.
I don't think the system has caughtup with the changing landscape.
Um, and it's changing so fast thatwe're all kind of confused about
(08:22):
how how we go about changing.
And, um, that landscape hasto do with, you know, falling.
Falling attendance, falling enrollment,with increasing tuition, with AI, with
the pandemic, you know, all these factorshave dramatically changed the landscape.
And so, accreditation bodies andagencies are probably not keen on a
whole new transformation right nowwhen everybody feels that the, that the
(08:46):
land underneath us is very unstable.
Um, and so, we need to finda way to maintain trust.
Uh, a quick example is, you know,I love using ePortfolios because I
believe in holistic assessment, right?
The power of an e portfolio again,you're making learning visible, but
you also get to tell the story ofyour own learning of your journey.
You get to see it happen.
(09:07):
You get to include the data that'srelevant to you, and you get to
reflect back on what you're doing.
Um, that's really difficultto share across massive
bodies of stakeholders, right?
Institutions to, to, to It'sso much easier for us to
share grades, for instance.
Um, so I love ePortfolios, especially inthe context of the ungrading movement.
I work with a lot of educators Kthrough 12 or in college who want to
(09:30):
find ways to ungrade their classes.
And I am philosophically behindThe concept of ungrading, right?
I understand that grades are aninstitutional communication mechanism.
It's just easier for us to say whosomebody is in terms of a GPA than
it is to say, look at this brilliantePortfolio they have, right?
Like, we just don't have enough peoplein the room to go in that direction.
(09:51):
So while I'm philosophically behindungrading, I also reflect on if
colleges and universities like imaginetomorrow if all the universities
said, we're going to get rid of gradesbecause we want to be more equitable.
My heart would be jumping upand down, but I have to imagine
from the public perception.
It's going to look like.
So then you're a degree mill.
How are you evaluating students, right?
(10:12):
Like, where's the quality control?
And then I imagine accreditationbodies, right, are going to freak out
in terms of like, how do we know thatwhat you're submitting as artifacts,
right, and artifacts could be anythingfrom a student essay to a paper to a
project to exam scores, um, how do weknow that these artifacts are aligned
with, um, a certain level of rigorthat we expect from higher education?
(10:33):
So I think that even when our heart isbehind the changes that we need to make,
the current social and cultural contextaround higher education is making it,
um, not, I'm trying to avoid using theword difficult because I don't think
it's necessarily about difficulty.
I think it's more about retainingand restoring public trust that we
(10:54):
are rigorous, that we are holdingpeople to high expectations, um,
and then how, How can we do thatin ways that's more meaningful?
Right.
Cause we don't want the very mechanismthat we designed to, um, make sure that
the checks and balances are in place tostop it from actually catching up with,
you know, what, to actually make it make,uh, uh, uh, to, to deliver the actual
(11:18):
Product that it's supposed to do, right?
Yep, exactly.
Because it's, uh, it's sort of,in some ways, um, like you said,
it hasn't caught up fast enough.
And that, as a result, it's, um,and it happens in a lot of regular
things that are regulated, right?
Um, in, in the world.
Um, I think AI is actually a reallybig, you know, um, part of it.
(11:41):
We're not able to, you know, legislatenearly fast enough, you know, comparing
to how fast the technology is moving.
Yep.
You know, like, and, and it's, it's, it's,it's It's, uh, it's, it's not only cat
and mouse because it implies that you caneventually catch them, but it's not like
a runaway train, you know, like, um, so,so I think it, it is hard and I, I do.
(12:08):
You know, for me, I worry, I worrya little bit about sort of the,
there is that public trust, butthere's also just the, we have
a lot of choices today, right?
People can get a, some micro credentialsand some, they could learn how to go, they
can go, if they want to learn, so theycan take an online course of some sort,
(12:30):
and that might be all that they needed.
They actually didn't reallywant all this four years worth.
Um, and, um, and, and with all of thechoices, it really does imply that, you
know, the landscape of learning couldjust be really, and the, the, the, the
landscape of learning with credentialsis also another sort of weird part
(12:52):
too, because then accreditation comeswith the credentialing part of it.
And, and, and, and, and, and I will saythat, I don't know, as a, as someone
who is maybe on the hiring side of,um, of, of, you know, where we hire,
um, People at our company, um, youknow, we look these days a lot less at
(13:14):
their degree and where they came from.
We look a lot more than the workthat they're able to produce.
Um, and the kind of quality ofthe work, the quality of the
personality, the cultural fit.
And we are sometimes looking at that, youknow, degree, not even as a requirement.
It's just, okay, it's interestingthat you went there and did this.
(13:36):
Um, and that it explains yourtrajectory of how things worked out.
Do you know what I mean?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
If you did that, you must know this.
Um, at least in my field, right?
In, you know, hiring programmers or,you know, even a customer support person
or, You know, like I, I'm sure it's alittle bit different if you're hiring,
(13:56):
um, you know, like, uh, like you said,a nurse, you know, I, I probably want
someone who actually were, you know,were vouched for that they know how
to, you know, perform, you know, youknow, these medical procedures safely.
But, but for a lot of other, other fields,actually, you know, we're not looking at
that as a, as a, as a requirement really.
(14:17):
Right, right.
It's less about, like, what badgesyou've earned in your, your scout sash
and more about, like, what, what areyou able to do with that information?
Right.
I really want to see you tie the knot.
I don't want to see the factthat you can tie knots, you know?
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that's, that's what I meanabout authentic assessment, right?
(14:38):
And so working with faculty in my center,it's all about, you know, let's just
stay with the example of tying knots.
If tying knots is the thing thatwill make you a professional in a
particular field, then why don'tyou just assess them on tying knots?
Don't just give them anexam about what a knot is.
Right.
And so that's where that movement.
Um, I, that's where I'm always tryingto push the movement of assessment,
(15:01):
the culture of assessment intothese authentic simulated spaces.
Um, yeah.
And then, and then back to thatchallenge of accreditation.
How do we report?
That, that, that competency or thatability, um, or that outcome, how do we
communicate that and report that, um,within our institutions and to other
institutions, like in the crediting bodyto show that, yeah, there's growth and
(15:23):
we're doing what we say that we're doing.
Um, we're just using these authenticforms of assessment so students can do
rather than just credentialing them.
All right.
Let's, let's talk a little bit about AI.
All right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, we already mentioned it a few times.
I, I think that these days you can'thave conversations without talking about
it somehow or talking to it somehow.
Yeah, right.
(15:44):
Um, I think we should talka little bit about it.
I, I want to first, um,point out one thing.
Hopefully we don't stayon this for too long.
But, a lot of institutions, whenthey hear AI, they are still today.
Yeah.
Um, you know, sort of plagiarism and, youknow, academic honesty and cheating is
(16:10):
the Sort of the first thing, you know,that many people are, you know, it's,
it's, it's, if we mention AI, that'sgoing to be one of the top three things
in most people is the top one thing.
Um, so what's going on there?
Can you tell us?
Um, yeah, I'll try my best.
(16:31):
I can't, I don't know exactly what's,what's going on, but, uh, yeah.
Um.
You know, first thing, plagiarismis older than AI, right?
Like we know that this has been a concernfor many years, um, for everybody.
And this goes back to our, ourrelationship with assessment
that's more about accountabilitythan it is about improvement.
(16:52):
Right?
And it's not...
we haven't been so concerned with, letme assess where you are, low stakes, so
I can see where you are, so I can helpyou improve wherever you are, right?
It's always been, let me assess whereyou are, because this assessment is
going to have implications for yourfinancial aid, for your scholarship, for
your career, for your ability to say it.
Like, we just create all thesepressures that we inadvertently
(17:13):
message to students, you better pass;regardless of how you pass, right?
Like you want to keep your financialaid, you better pass this class, right?
So we create all these external factors,um, that AI is not really one of them.
I don't think AI actually motivatescheating and, and this, and I know this
is my own opinion anecdotally, but it'salso based on the research, um, very
(17:34):
new emerging research into AI use or.
Even outsourcing assignments, right?
Like one of the most popular waysthat students have plagiarized
before AI is to go onto websiteswhere you can pay somebody else
to do the work for you, right?
So it's not necessarilycheating as we've known it.
It's a cottage industry of cheating.
Um, and looking at those for thosewho didn't know, I, I looked it up.
(17:56):
It was between 800 to 1, 000.
You get a guaranteed "A" yep.
Yeah, it's a very known thing.
Students know where they are, you know,if you just go, you know what, I just
need to get an ECA on this, you cando that, and they will do everything.
Including creating thepresentation and giving you notes.
(18:17):
If you should, you need toshow up in person to make that
presentation at the final day.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So that's been available, right?
And that's been one of the mostcommon forms of plagiarism.
So I'm just sharing this tosay I don't think AI created
plagiarism or even exacerbated it.
What it's done is complicate it.
Complicate our understanding of itbecause now there's an easier route.
(18:38):
Um But, we also know that when studentsare, you know, going back to belonging
and inclusive classrooms, um, we alsoknow that intrinsic motivation is a very,
very powerful human thing, phenomenon.
Um, if a student is engaged in somethingthat they're doing, if they have that
interest in something that they'redoing, they are more likely to do it.
(19:01):
Even when shortcuts are available.
So let's go back to video games as anexample, because of course, um, there have
been things like GameShark, their AI hasbeen part of the video game community and
world for years, where it's very easy toprogram a bot to play the game for you.
So you get the rewards from the gamethat you want, whether it's the digital
currency of the game, or whether it'soutfits for your avatar, or whether
(19:24):
it's just, you know, to show up on aleaderboard and to brag to the world that
you're the Madden player or NBA 2K player.
You can actually program a bot todo the video game playing for you.
Now, there hasn't been a lot of formalresearch into this use, but I, um, I
have to believe that the video gameindustry would collapse if people weren't
actually playing the games anymore.
(19:45):
Right, so it, here comes this, this,Mode for you to cheat the thing that
you love doing and people don't use itor at least abuse it too much, right?
They might, even if it's incorporated,they're still playing the game.
They're still involved in the community.
They're still doing the thingthat they're being asked to
do by these game developers.
The involvement is still there.
The engagement is still there.
The stakes are a lot lower.
They don't even have to win.
(20:07):
They're just doing it for theirown personal satisfaction.
So they're more likely to actuallydo it and go into the flow, right?
And, and be engaged in that moment.
And I think we can treateducation the same way, right?
So when I am working with, uh, withmy class, you know, when you talk
about project based learning, I breakeverything down into these separate parts.
Um, I've I'm doing my best to lowerthe stakes, you know, because I
(20:27):
want students to make mistakes.
I want them to fail so they can learn fromfailure, not fail and then have that "F"
follow them around the rest of their life.
And when I do those things,um, at least in my own class
surveys and my own, you know, um,research, my own action research.
Students are less likely to take ashortcut regardless of what it is.
It's even if it's Chat GPT, I,I ran a study last semester.
(20:48):
Um, and because of the choices thatthey're making, because they say things
like this topic's really important tome, or they might say things like the
way the assignment is broken up, it'sactually more work for me to use AI.
Um, it's easier for me to just do thework because you've broken it out into
chunks for me where I feel I have thecapability to complete this assignment.
Well, now we're not talkingabout plagiarism anymore.
We're talking about motivation.
(21:09):
And I I'd rather have the discussiongo there where like, let's talk
about how AI can help motivate.
But that in mind and thinkingabout equity, imagine a student.
So I teach writing classes.
Imagine a student who uses Englishas a second or third language.
It's not their, it'snot their home language.
It's not the language they use whenthey talk to their family members.
Um, or even when they think to themselves,it's not the language that they use.
(21:30):
And I asked the student to writean essay, just like I ask all my
other students to write an essay.
Right from the beginning, thisstudent is not at the same
starting point as everyone else.
So now there's an issue of equity.
Let's say that student uses CHAT GPT todraft an outline or even an introductory
paragraph with the goal of, I'm going totry my best to make the rest of my writing
(21:50):
look like that introductory paragraph.
I can look at that as plagiarism, or Ican look at that as leveling the playing
field, right, that now that student hasan equal starting point as everybody else.
And so for me, it's more about motivationand equity because plagiarism is a much
longer, um, An issue that had, thatwe've had to face for many more years.
(22:11):
Um, and I think it has more to dowith how engaged and involved students
are, than what tools are available.
I think it really goes into that justin time and just in case, um, area too.
Like for me, you know, like whenyou, when you go in and play Legend
of Zelda, if someone were to say.
(22:33):
Hey, let me play it for you.
You'd be like, no way.
Exactly.
I wanna get to play this.
That's the whole point.
But I, to me, I think that thereis this, um, I I've been using
this other, I'm going to throw, I'mgoing to throw this analogy to you
and see what, what you think of it.
Um, cause I can, I think peoplego, well, So, you know, Legends of
(22:55):
Zelda is fun, so is entertainment.
How can you compare thatto, you know, the textbook?
Okay, fine, whatever.
I'm going to give you a slightly differentanalogy here, because video game is
so fun that they're like, you know,oh sure, I can binge watch, you know,
Netflix for like 11 hours straight.
Is there a high productionvalue, et cetera, et cetera.
(23:16):
All right, so let's takea musician or an athlete.
Let's take an athlete that has to,train to, um, run a marathon, um,
they don't now, by the way, theydo cheat in different ways, you
know, performance and enhancingdrugs, you know, things like that.
But if you were to tell, if theywere to be told, let's say you are
(23:42):
someone who wants to run a marathon,you are not an experienced runner.
You went online, bought a course,or I read a book they gave you.
I mean, this, by theway, really does exist.
They give you these courses thatbasically said you have, you know,
four months or six months, you know,in every single week, they tell you how
many miles you should run and for howlong and how fast so that they, they
(24:05):
peak you all the way to like the weekbefore, you know, you run the marathon,
you'll be able to log about, you know,you can actually run 20 ish miles.
That week, and then theadrenaline will push you through
to the 26th and finish, right?
So people just want to finish, right?
And I'm not talking aboutultra competitor here.
Just someone who said, Hey,it's always been my bucket list.
(24:28):
And
You would, you can talk to the person,they go to week three, they're supposed
to, I don't know, run, you know, like,log eight miles that week, maybe four
times two miles a piece, all right?
You could not pay that person tohave someone else run for them.
(24:51):
Exactly.
By the way, these are hard, right?
By the time you get to the thirteenthweek, they might be running 18
miles that week, and they'rerunning, you know, six miles apart.
It's taking them a lot of time,energy, and it's not the, you know,
it's not like Legend of Zelda.
It's like they are sweating, their headis telling them to stop, please stop, you
(25:15):
have cramps, your joints not working, youare hungry, you know, all of that, right?
So you're fighting extremephysical and mental discomfort.
Um, and challenge to push yourselfto be able to do it again.
You couldn't pay this person tonot do that a hundred percent.
(25:39):
They know that if they don't doit, they can't run that marathon.
Right.
And that's what thething they want the most.
So there is, to me, this sort of, by theway, these are not people that, that's
new, like they just somehow had thistrust that this curriculum works for them.
(25:59):
Don't they?
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
They didn't, uh, students, I cometo many classes, not your class,
because you are very good atgetting them to understand that.
But if without that, there is this hugemisalignment, this huge gap that sets,
look, I don't know why I'm doing this.
So why, what does it matterif I had someone else do it?
(26:20):
Because there is this huge misalignmenton this doesn't matter to me.
Right?
The stuff that actuallydoes matter to you.
Like if you are that nurse and you'relike, Oh no, I, I really need to
learn how to perform this, this,this task because if I don't, I won't
know what to do when the patientcomes in and has this condition.
So I need to do it.
(26:41):
I can't have someone else help me do it.
Like maybe I can, so to speak, cheatby saying, well, you thought I need
to have it done, like pat down now,but I don't, yeah, I need a little
cheat sheet, so to speak, fine.
Right?
But actually I want to do it.
I want to learn it.
Um, so I think that's that trustand that misalignment that is
really, like powering a lot of this.
(27:03):
And the gap gets wedged and wedgedwider and wider and wider to the
point where a student just kindof going, yeah, I can just do it.
Hey, like, forget the AI part.
I can pay 800 and get aguaranteed a any school.
Yeah.
I just do that.
Exactly.
I mean, you're describingmotivation theory perfectly, right?
It's all about goal settingand those goals have to be
(27:24):
distal and proximal, right?
So the distal goal of, I wantto be able to run a marathon
or just complete a marathon.
Um, that's a distal goal.
I know that I can't do that tomorrow.
I can't even do thatin a year necessarily.
I need lots of training.
What's going to keep memotivated and keep me.
Um, keep me on track, you know,through the curriculum are those
(27:45):
proximal goals, goals that areclose enough to be achievable.
And when I achieve them, I can publicly,um, celebrate them and I can, and
that motivates me and encouragesme to move on to the next goal.
Those goals have toalways be in range, right?
So I think about Vygotsky's zoneof proximal development, right?
We need to constantly set goals that arejust outside of our threshold, but they
(28:05):
look like they're just in arm's reach.
I'm almost there, right?
I can, I can do fourmiles this week, right?
I, um, I, I've done two.
I just need two more and I'm right there.
And then before I knowit is 13 miles, right?
Because that goal became within mythreshold, fell within my threshold.
Um, And that's how we need toset up a curriculum, right?
And so, for example, I have, I'm a largeadvocate and we're doing this in much
(28:30):
larger areas now here at Quinnipiac, youknow, we, we tend to, the traditional
story is we cap a course, um, with itsclimax, uh, to use this, a story metaphor
with the final exam, which is high stress.
High stakes and largelydisconnected from us.
And we just do a multiple choice test.
Most many students do, right?
Or they do their 20 page research paper.
(28:50):
Um, even if they're invested in it, youknow, it might just be by the end of 20
pages of writing this, I'm done and Inever want to see this topic again, right?
It's not, we're not at a good placewhen we reach final exam week.
We bring puppies on the campus to helpdestress people because of how much
we stress them out for final exam.
So what we're doing now is we'recalling it a showcase week, right?
(29:10):
So by By the time the final exam weekcomes, at least for the College of Arts
and Science, which is going to run thishuge showcase this year, um, Instead
of asking students to take a test or tosubmit this major, onerous product, um,
we're going to hold space where theycan engage with authentic audiences.
You know, we're going to invite employers,we're going to invite community members,
(29:31):
and students are going to present tothem, here's what I did this semester.
Here's this work that I'm really proud of.
It is literally andemphatically a showcase.
Let's celebrate what you've accomplished.
That needs to work inthroughout the semester as well.
I'm constantly trying to work inthrough my syllabus, scheduled
moments of public success.
I want to set it up where thestudent cannot fail, no matter what.
(29:53):
They will succeed these, like, andso they're not truly assessments.
They're more of just a public showcaseto prove to yourself that you can do it.
You've accomplished this proximal goal.
And let's move on to the next one.
Without that, we don't knowwhat story we're telling, right?
Like, if I'm in a course and Idon't see that relevance to that
course, I'm not going to do whatthe marathon runner does, right?
(30:13):
Because I don't see the goals, and Idon't see myself chasing those goals.
I think that's, that's,that's really a great point.
That, um, that it's, it's a great wayto, to see a solution, like what you were
saying, this showcase at the end, right?
It's, it's such a meaningfulsolution that anyone can implement.
(30:36):
It is.
Yeah.
It's just a change of the storythat we tell about learning.
Like, does it have to end withsomething as dreadful as a final exam?
I, I, I like the idea.
Oh, I, I like how youdescribe that when you are.
At the end of this project, if youare supposed to, at the end, I go, I
(30:56):
would never do this again, we've likeliterally just failed them, right?
Exactly.
Like that's different from like themusician that goes, by the time I've.
Figured out how I can playthis music, play this song.
I want to keep doing it.
This is when I get to perform.
Exactly.
And I go, Oh, thankGod I can like move on.
(31:21):
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
You know, and that's, um, my, my bigpie in the sky dream is that courses
will embrace, um, edutainment, right?
Like I don't, I don't thinkthere should be a divide.
And I know a lot of people will disagreewith it, and that's, that's fine.
I, um, and I'm, I'm always happy tohave that conversation, but I do think
education should be entertaining.
(31:41):
I think entertainment is afundamental human capacity.
Um, and maybe not even human.
I think all species in some way,shape, or form are driven by the
pleasure and joy of feeling good aboutbeing in the moment and entertainment
should be an instructional strategy.
It, we shouldn't do what we can to.
Leave it at the door.
Right.
Like, like you come toschool, no joy for you.
(32:04):
Joy is not in the word school.
So, right.
Or even, even the word discipline, right?
Like, I mean, what, whatdiscipline are you studying?
I mean, that word itself, likediscipline and punishment to
echo Foucault (Michel Foucault.)
Yeah, no, that's a, that'sa, that's a good point.
Um, I, I agree with you.
I think that sort of this, you know,there, there isn't, I think it's a,
(32:30):
It's a silly correlation that, youknow, in order for you to succeed,
it's, it, you're going to put in somehard work as in unenjoyable work.
I don't think, I don't thinkthat should always be true.
You know, sometimes we do them, likeI was saying about the, the, you
know, the marathon runner you sustainthrough, you know, sort of like.
(32:52):
Serious challenges.
Um, but it doesn't, you know, I actuallythink that, um, uh, for, for many people
that talk about that, there is joy tobe have in, in, in those instances.
Right.
Um, and people talk about their runner'shigh, but I think there is at least at
(33:12):
the very minimum, that sense of, you know,like, yes, I'm going to go through this.
And at the end, it's going to havethis, you know, like, the feeling
is going to be great when I finish,like, that six miles, you know, today.
Absolutely.
Desirable difficulty.
Yeah, and I, I just think that, youknow, in education, um, a friend of
(33:34):
mine, uh, professor, um, uh, JordyGetman from Bronx Community College.
Do you know him, by the way?
No, no.
I think you'll really get along with him.
Um, she We always talk about like,this is some, sometimes it's,
you know, it's academic laziness.
It's like, we, we thoughtlike we designed this.
We know it's going to work in our head.
(33:57):
You know, we just are too lazy to evenexplain to them why this is the case.
And we don't need to convince you.
You have to do this for me as ifyou are like my, Employees, I pay,
except that it's completely not true.
You have to circle it out.
So, whatever, you know, that, thatpower dynamic of grade and this high
(34:17):
stake thing that you talked about,this grade, this, you know, this,
like, if you don't do this, you know,you're not going to get a grade.
If you don't get a grade, you'renot going to get a certificate.
Then your whole life isgoing to get ruined, right?
And you're not going to get a job.
You're not going to bequalified to do this.
And, and, and, and this, You know, createsa lot of, uh, some animosity almost, you
(34:38):
know, between, between, you know, theperson who sets out to want to learn.
That's why they even botheredapplying to a school and getting in.
And, you know, it's a lotof effort to get there.
Um, and then the person who actually tooka job, took a profession, make the career.
Many, many faculty members, you know, are.
You know, it's, uh, it's, it's somethingthat hopefully that they enjoy, you know,
(35:01):
teaching, and then there's a, there'ssome version of a passion in their head
at some point, but there is a littlegap that, that is just stopping us
from making that big, that connection.
And I think for folks like you whocan make that connection easily
with the students, because youhave a lot of empathy for them.
Because you can easily put yourself backinto that mode of Legend of Zelda or this.
(35:26):
And you have me with Legendof Zelda in your own head.
Can't wait, right?
Because if you can do that, thenyeah, as soon as they're gonna stay.
Yep.
I mean, I think, I think aboutcourse design as an epic story.
Right, like, it's the hero's journey,um, in some way, like, at the start
of every semester, every student isa hero going on their epic quest,
(35:48):
and I just want them to realize that.
And what is that elixir, right,that they're going to bring
back to that ordinary world?
What is the thing that they arelearning that they're going to bring
back to their world and improve theirworld because of becoming this hero?
Well, that's fantastic.
Um, JT, I think I can talk to you for areally long time, and maybe we should.
Um, um, talk more.
(36:09):
Um, I'm always happy to talk to you.
Yeah.
Thank you.
But this is, this is fantastic.
I really, really appreciateyou, you know, bringing it to,
to this, uh, to this podcast.
Uh, I, I love, um, Ilove the way you think.
Um, I feel like we are reallyjust scratching the surface and
there's so much that you've done.
(36:30):
I, By the way, did do some, you know,research, usually don't even do a lot
of research, but, um, I did, you know,I saw, I actually started reading some
of your, the stuff that you, you, youdid and your, your books that you did,
you wrote it, co wrote a book with,um, uh, um, another Digication Scholar.
(36:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
Jill Flanders Crosby.
Yeah.
From University of Alaska, um, on dance.
Um, yeah.
And, uh, and your own novel, um, uh,um, about, um, Cuba, is that correct?
Yep, yep, yeah, yeah, it's about,it's about a family, um, I mean,
(37:12):
it's, it's autofiction, right?
So, like, it's based on elements ofmy life, um, but just, like, a family
trying to find their identity, um,after they are forced to give up
the identity that they had in Cuba.
So it's a migration storyabout this being in Florida.
You've got, you've done somuch and then you have articles
about artificial intelligence.
(37:33):
Um, so I, I'm going to try to, um,make sure some of these things get put
into the show notes so people can golook for, look for, look for your work.
But we really need to, um, You know,get you back on so that we can, uh,
we can, we can, we can discuss moreof these topics, especially as, as,
um, you know, the, the, how quicklyAI is going to continue to change,
(37:56):
um, uh, the world and high education.
And I think there'll be, there'llbe a lot to be discussed here.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Thank you.
It's, it's at least job security becauseAI is going to change so much that
we need scholars to keep studying it.
Right.
That's right.
Okay.
All right.
Well, Thank you, JT.
Um, I appreciate everything again,and, uh, we'll, we'll talk to you soon.
(38:18):
Okay.
Thank you.
Okay.
Take care.
You too.
Coming up next, we'll be chattingwith Andre Perez, a student
at the University of LaVerne.
Here's a quick preview.
Be happy to share, share it too.
Just be able to share itand just share with anyone.
Um, and yeah, just focus on having fun.
That's the most important part.
(38:39):
And then, also, the grade helps, too.
Be serious, but also have fun with it.
It's that perfect balanceyou just gotta find.
But don't try and justmake it all academic.
Try and put your own spin on it, causethat's what a portfolio is all about.
Popular Podcasts
1. Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
2. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
3. Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.