September 11, 2024 • 36 mins
In this episode of the #DigicationScholars Conversations, we discuss the future of #DigitalAccessibility with Kate Sonka (Teach Access.)
Host Jeff Yan chats with Kate, Executive Director of Teach Access. They discuss Teach Access's mission to support educators in teaching about accessibility and disability.
The conversation also explores the importance of integrating accessibility into product development and the broad benefits it offers society.
Join us to learn more about how accessibility can transform digital experiences for everyone.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you will hear partone of my conversation with Kate Sonka,
Executive Director of Teach Access.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication ScholarsConversations can be found on
(00:21):
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
My guest today is Kate Sonka,Executive Director of Teach Access.
Hi, Kate.
Hi, Jeff.
It's so good to be here.
It's really great to see you again.
And, uh, Kate, um, now, TeachAccess is a non profit organization.
(00:46):
Um, I want, why don't you tellus a little bit about, um, what
Teach Access is so that we are allgrounded to, to this, this episode.
I think it's going to be really exciting.
A lot of our listeners will be veryexcited about what you have to say.
Yes.
Thank you so much, Jeff.
And again, thanks for having me.
So glad to be here.
Um, so Teach Access, uh, as you said,we're a non profit organization.
(01:10):
Um, we're based here in the U S.
We're fully remote, so we don'tactually have sort of a home base.
I'm based in Michigan, we haveother team members in Michigan,
Tennessee, Puerto Rico, but we, wecollaborate with people across the U.
S.
Um, and our mission is to support,Educators and faculty, uh, to
(01:31):
teach about accessibility, digitalaccessibility and dis and disability.
Um, and so our, we also have programsthat, that support students as well, and
I'm sure we'll get into some of those.
Um, but our mission is to really thinkabout what is it that educators and
faculty need in terms of resources,Curricular materials, trainings to
(01:54):
feel informed and comfortable to beable to teach these topics to their
students, um, with the ultimate goalof closing what we call the, um,
Accessibility Technology Skills Gap.
Sorry, I stumbled there a bit, um, butthis idea that industry and definitely
the tech industry, but, but all industryis looking for recent graduates, um,
(02:19):
From from higher ed, uh, who knowssomething about accessibility and who
knows something about disability, um, sothat as they enter into jobs, internships
in these organizations, they know toinclude accessibility from the beginning,
um, so that products and services areborn accessible is what we call it.
(02:41):
So this idea that, you know, you andI are starting to work together and we
want to develop a new app, um, and Iknow that accessibility is something we
should consider, um, and, and you do too.
So we know, ah, we have to includethat from the beginning, um, because
We know that things will be put outinto the marketplace that are not
accessible, and of course what thatmeans is that people with disabilities
(03:03):
cannot interact with those products orhave difficulty interacting with that.
And so the idea is really we'relaying this groundwork, we're trying
to close the skills gap so that ascompanies are hiring students and recent
graduates They know that accessibilitywill be included from the beginning.
Um, and so we do a lot of workthat I know we'll dive into.
(03:24):
Um, but that's, that's our mission.
That is what a wonderful,wonderful introduction.
And what a, um, what a, whata, what a great mission.
And I should, I think it would beimportant for our listener to know
that, um, for those who don't already,Digication, um, and Teach Access,
(03:45):
um, have a partnership where, uh,we have, you know, we, I think.
I think you and I met through, I actuallydon't remember how we met, but I know
that we have a, um, a friend in commonand who is Mark Thompson, who happens
to be another Digication Scholar.
And he is, uh, Season Three, Episode 28.
(04:07):
Those are, that's what's in my notes.
And he's, um, he's from University ofIllinois in Urbana Champaign, who is
an accessibility universal design guru.
Um, And, um, I believe that he was inone of your, uh, founding board members
or something, right, at Teach Access?
Yes, yes.
He's been, he's been with TeachAccess since we kicked off in 2016
(04:30):
and has been just a constant supportand, and volunteer and just always
willing to share his knowledge.
And, and, and that's part ofour work too, is, is building
this network of other educators.
Incredible educators like Mark, um, aswell as people in industry, disability
(04:51):
advocacy, non profit groups, um, reallybuilding a network to help do this work,
um, because we can't do it alone, uh,and, and Mark has been incredible in
coming and talking with other facultyabout, here's what I've done in my
courses and how I've taught this,or, um, providing ideas on how they
could be teaching it in their courses.
So Mark is a big, big, bigfriend of Teach Access.
(05:14):
And so we, and I, and, and, andhe's a big friend of Digication as
well, which I think is so lovely.
And, and I think that the, um, uh, I thinkbased on all of that circles, we have
overlapping because we obviously bothhave interest in it, in, in accessibility.
Um, we got to know each otherand know, uh, having learned
(05:35):
about your mission, in which casedoes not really do a lot of, um.
You know, this level of partnershipwith organizations, but when we learned
about your mission, we thought, wow,what an amazing set of resources.
And, and since we work with a lot offaculty members and students across many
universities and K 12 schools, we thought,wouldn't it be nice if we can, um, uh,
(06:00):
you know, promote some of the resourcesthat Teach Access has to offer, which
is genuinely just good content for bothfaculty members and students, good for
teachers and students who are maybe, youknow, know, have heard a little bit about
accessibility, but don't know, don't knowhow to do it, you know, aside from maybe
(06:24):
the limited experiences with, oh, right,a video should have um captions and audio
should have transcripts maybe, and thatmight be the extent of what they know.
Um, and so what, you know, and, and,and it may not even be a huge part
of, you know, what they do day to day.
And, and, and for us tohave an opportunity to...
(06:48):
to, to provide some really quick,easy to digest resources for them.
Um, you know, is, is a wonderful thing.
Um, we don't necessarily needthem to get a PhD in it, but, you
know, knowing that is, is, is, isjust the, the basic foundation.
Like you said, that skill gap promotesthe idea that whether they're building
(07:10):
an app or providing services, you know,to, to, to their community, how, how can
accessibility be born with that idea?
You know, that comes witheverything that they do.
So maybe I would justclarify one thing, which is.
You know, we, you use the example ofwhat if we build an app together, right?
It sounds very Silicon Valley, right?
But there's also the same as if you area journalist and you're going to go and
(07:34):
work for a newspaper, a more traditionalmedia company when, but you are still,
it doesn't matter what your job is.
You could be a writer.
You could be an editor.
You could be a photographer,but you are going to.
Still advocate for accessibilityat whatever job that whatever way
that you contributed to society.
(07:56):
And I think that is just whatan amazing mission, Kate.
Thank you so much for bringing this,this, um, this organization to life
and, and, and, and, and, and heading it.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I really appreciate that.
I think you really, um,
noticed something that is really part ofour ethos is this Everybody should know
(08:19):
a little bit, um, so one of the phrasesthat we like to use a lot is we are about
breadth more than depth, um, and youkind of hinted at this in a few different
ways, um, but this idea that we're reallytrying to get a lot of people to know at
least a little bit, um, of course thatdoesn't mean that it will take care of all
the accessibility needs, um, that exist.
(08:40):
For all types ofdisabilities, of course not.
Um, but imagine what the worldwould be like if everybody at
least knew, Hey, you know what?
Accessibility has to be apart of the work that I do.
Just like you said, no matter where I'mat, you know, if you're a journalist,
what, what language choices are you makingin terms of the way that maybe you're
talking about people with disabilities?
(09:01):
Or, um, you know, ableistphrases or using plain language.
Um, and then of course the type ofmedia you're creating, what are you
doing to make sure that that mediaand the, and the stories that you're
putting out and information isaccessible to people with disabilities.
And that's really whatwe're looking at is.
If everybody knew a littlebit, um, think of how we would
(09:23):
continue to advance, right?
We will always need peoplewho are accessibility experts.
They're crucially important tous being able to do this work.
Imagine if their time was ableto be spent more on some of those
challenging accessibility questions.
How to make different thingsfunction in different ways.
Um, and maybe less time, less of theirtime, you know, training incoming
(09:45):
new hires on This is what alternativetext is, or here's what the Web
Content Accessibility Guidelines are.
Um, if everyone kind of understood,yeah, those things are out there,
um, I know how to do some of this.
I know where to go to find moreinformation, or have to call in the,
you know, the internal accessibilityteam, because this one is a little bit
(10:06):
more than what I'm Aware of enough tobe able to do, uh, if that makes sense.
So, um, it's really part ofwhat we're trying to do is broad
understanding about accessibility.
Um, of course, if you look atdisability, um, statistics, there's
so many different places you cango to find this information, but.
(10:26):
For example, the World HealthOrganization estimates that about 20
percent of the population, world'spopulation, has a disability.
It's likely higher, right?
Because it's self reported data, andthere's all sorts of reasons that people
choose not to report or aren't awarethat they have a disability, perhaps,
or don't think of it as a disability,or whatever that might look like.
(10:49):
So that means that one in fourpeople, uh, Actually, that's, yeah,
a little higher than that, I guess.
25%, one in four people hasa disability, um, or knows
somebody who has a disability.
And so when you think of it thatway, no matter what you're doing,
somebody will interact with, with yourwork who identifies as disabled or
(11:11):
knows someone who has a disability.
So it's crucial that weall are aware of this.
Um, another thing that, that, We talkabout often with faculty and students
is that, you know, the disabilitycommunity is one that any of us could
enter and at any time in our life, um,permanently, temporarily, situationally.
(11:31):
And so when we think of other typesof, um, identity groups that some
of us are born into, we're, we'remembers of those groups, right?
Our whole lives.
Um, disability is one that you can be borninto, but you can also join at any point.
At any time.
And so it truly does affectall of us in some way.
And so the more we can bring awarenessto that, that this is part of human, you
(11:56):
know, this, this is, these are humans.
We're humans.
Um, it's, it's importantto, to be able to do that.
So I think that's, that's,that's really, really great.
I, I, I wanted to paint a little picturefor, for us to ponder a little bit, which
is, you know, like, even if you are notsomeone who feels like, You're not, um,
(12:17):
you know, I'm not designing a product.
I'm not responsible for any of that.
I think, like you said, to participatedoes not require you to do any of that.
So for example, today we, we, um.
Many of us actively participatein, you know, social media such
(12:37):
as, um, TikTok and Instagram.
Most of these, you know,services are not designed with
accessibility in mind at all.
In fact, many of them, um, Youknow, it's not even in the roadmap.
There is no way to, to make it accessible.
The, the product itself was not likeyou said, born with accessibility
(13:00):
as part of its formulation.
Um, in fact, I would probably saythat for, for, for many of these
services, they have given up on peoplewho would not be able to access their
service and they're okay with it.
Yeah.
I don't know.
(13:20):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
I, so I have to say, you know,part of the, the, um, work that we
do and the collaborations we haveare with a lot of tech companies.
Um, that's really where wewere born out of, actually.
Conversations that, um, somepeople at Facebook, now Meta.
We're having with some folks at Yahooand, and they were identifying the skills
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gap and this was back in like 2015.
I mean, it's existed longer than that,but in 2015, they were saying, you
know, we can't, when we're hiring recentgraduates, they don't know about this.
And so, you know, I, there's,Always room for improvement.
You know, we're never, we'renever done with accessibility.
We never are 100 percent done with itbecause there will always be, you know,
(14:03):
a new update or, or you meet someone, um,or someone is using your product who has
a specific, um, type of disability thatyou hadn't thought about or considered
and, and, you know, need to go back andtake a look at how, how to make it work.
Um, so.
While there's plenty of, of space forimprovement, um, I do think there's,
(14:24):
you know, a number of, of companiesthat we work with who have internal
accessibility teams, um, who are workingreally hard to figure out how to, uh,
create new products that are accessible,but also remediate what exists out there.
Um, and I think, I think there's,There are all types of people at every
stage, right, of the process in makingtheir products and services accessible.
(14:49):
So, um, but that's whatour hope is, right?
If we can continue to reach, or as wecontinue to reach all of the students
that we can, they come into theseorganizations, whether it's Tech or any
organization, any industry, and they canstart to really move that needle, right?
That every meeting, someone saying,we have to make this accessible.
(15:11):
How do we do that?
Um, or, or where do wego to make that happen?
So, you know, it's a big, It's abig undertaking, uh, for all of
us, but, but an important one.
So, yeah, I, I agree.
And I, and I think that, you know,to the picture that I was going
to paint, which was, you know, itmight come a time where products
(15:34):
in general will find itself being.
Oh, we have to address this becauseour consumers are knowledgeable
enough that they expect it, right?
So similar to if you, you wouldn't beable to, I mean, if I go into a brand
new restaurant today and that thisrestaurant is not, you know, accessible by
(15:57):
wheelchair, I would notice it and I'll belike, well, how, how would you serve that?
And how did you even get tothis point where you can have
a restaurant that is new?
Right.
And, and, and it's something thatyou'd, you'd, you'd, you would,
you would sort of go, you would,you would ask questions about it.
And, and I think that that's, um,that's a really healthy thing.
(16:19):
It's a healthy thing for our society.
It's a, you're almost like giving itsome, you mean it, uh, um, uh, What,
what is it that I'm going to, I'mtrying to say you're, you're giving
it, um, sort of a defense mechanism,you know, a self corrective self, um,
mechanism by letting all of us, lettingthe general society gain a higher level
(16:46):
of awareness of digital accessibility.
We just talked about wheelchairs,which many of us would, would
know and notice, you know, right.
Right.
But when we are then starting to talkabout, um, digital accessibility,
we're not there yet, right?
Like you, as you mentioned, all alternatetexts for images, I'm sure that some of
our listeners will go, well, what is that?
(17:08):
Absolutely.
Um, and, uh, but, you know, As theylearn more about it, then it becomes
something that they go, okay, I maynot even be the one who's creating
something that will use this alttext or have anything to do with it.
But if I come across someone whotalks about it and saying that
(17:29):
they, they, they can't access animage because it was lacking this
text, I would know what it is.
And I would know that They should havedone it, and they would demand it, right?
And I think that that's,that's what it's about, right?
Getting that, that, thatliteracy out to people.
It really is.
And I think, you know, it's interesting.
(17:50):
You bring up the idea of how we noticeif something maybe isn't wheelchair
accessible, um, versus, you know, thinkingabout digital spaces and accessibility.
And some of that is by natureof, um, So we, we know about the
Americans with Disabilities Act.
Um, and prior to that there wereother pieces of legislation, um, the
(18:11):
Rehabilitation Act, um, and otherswho were identifying in the ADA for
short Americans with Disabilities Act.
ADA was signed into law in 1990,so not that long ago really.
Um, but what that did lay thegroundwork for, and what that required
was that we have to make publicspaces and, and others accessible.
(18:32):
You know, physical spaces.
And so, you know, people I thinkhave a more, um, a longer, have had
a longer chance to understand, like,okay, I understand what that means.
There needs to be wheelchairaccessibility into a building,
or there needs to be braille, um,available and in signage and so forth.
Um, where was the internet in 1990?
(18:54):
I mean, it existed, butnot like it does now.
Right?
I mean, not like it did even 20 years ago.
Uh, and so...
It's been, I think what you've identifiedis, is what a lot of us have been working
on in accessibility is that, you know,general public awareness, if you talk
about disability, um, or accessibilityas it relates to physical buildings, it's
(19:15):
like, oh, yeah, I understand that meanswe have to uh, you know, an elevator,
whatever, whatever those things may be.
There's many.
Um, they're just, there's no reallegislation that's been around as
long to say, here's what it hasto look like for digital spaces.
Um, there is something for, forlisteners, if they aren't familiar
with, it's called the Web AccessibilityContent Guidelines or WCAG.
(19:41):
Some people pronouncethat acronym WCAG or WCAG.
It's, you know, any number of ways.
Um, but this is a set of guidelines.
It's not legislation, it's not a law,um, but it's a bunch of very intelligent
people who know what they're doing withaccessibility who've come together to
put together, um, the set of guidelinesto help all of us understand, okay, how
(20:04):
do we make digital spaces accessible?
Um, and so that exists and many entities,especially anyone out there who works
for a university, you've probablyheard, okay, well, our university
says they're accessible for WCAG AA.
Um, so there's different levels within it.
Um, so it's, it's used as a tool, um,to help people understand here's how
(20:26):
we make digital spaces accessible.
Um, and there's a whole bunch ofother legislation that, that, We
could certainly talk about or thinkabout or that's coming down and
thinking about these, these phsy...
Uh these digital spaces, but um it'svery interesting for that reason,
because you're right that it is aboutawareness that some people are aware
over here on this side, because it's.
(20:48):
There's laws, or it's been around alittle bit longer, um, but the digital
space is still a very interestingone, uh, to be, to be working
in for accessibility, for sure.
And, and I think that the, um, I thinkthat the, um, the idea that, Uh, more
and more services will be accessible.
(21:09):
Um, it is a good thing youtalked about some of the big tech
companies who are participating.
And by the way, I don't meanto, you know, Of course, yeah.
keep up on them for not, um, for, fornot, you know, if they have things
that are, you know, that still needto, you know, improvements or whatnot.
I'm just thinking more of the, you know,and it's not about a big tech company.
It's about also, you know, Someonein a garage building the next, you
(21:33):
know, really cool, you know, photosharing app, you know, photo sharing
app is actually, in fact, one of thosethings that's it's photo sharing app.
How do I immediately think about photosharing also being an accessible version
of photo sharing from the get go?
So if, if, if that's part of your ownrequirements, part of your own, you know,
(21:56):
goals, then you might take the productin a completely different direction.
Right.
Absolutely.
Um, and, and, and by the way, just it's,it's also happens to be good business
because like you said, you know, maybeit's not one in four that you know,
cannot access a photo, but there issome significant percentage still and
(22:18):
laws of large numbers when, you know, asmall percentage of a very large number
is still a very, very large number.
Um, right.
And, and, and that'snot something to ignore.
Now, I do think that, um, and I, I,I don't know the history of this.
I probably should because I wastrained as an architect, um, for
(22:38):
the, you know, sort of physicalaccessibility, you know, sort of history.
Um, I see now that, um, All, ifI'm correct, all at least federally
funded websites and maybe evenstate funded websites usually are,
are required to be accessible.
Is that correct?
Either they're required, or theyare already being accessible.
(23:01):
So this is an interesting questionbecause if you so a lot of that comes
through actually through the ADA,because of the way that it's written.
It talks about public spaces needingto be accessible, and in rulings,
and I'll talk about a good resourceto check out more in one second,
(23:21):
but in a lot of these rulings and.
Uh, what's the word I'm looking for?
Lawsuits, I guess.
Um, the argument is the Internetis a public space because
everybody has access to it.
I mean, of course, there's the questionaround actually having access in terms of
bandwidth and ability, but as an entity,anyone who has the ability to get to
(23:47):
an internet space can get to it, right?
So, so that's how, um, some of thesehave been, uh, litigated, I guess.
Uh, and so when you think about that,you're like, okay, well, if the ADA
covers, uh, or, or talks about publicspaces needing to be accessible,
like, you know, federal buildings andstate buildings and universities and
(24:07):
all of these places, um, that's how,the, the conversation comes about
for digital accessibility as well.
Well, it is a public domain.
It's a public space.
It needs to be accessible.
Um, and for anyone who's like,wow, I'm really intrigued by this
and I would like more information,um, a super great resource.
(24:27):
Um, there's, uh, a goodfriend of Teach Access.
Um, she's actually on our boardas well, but Lainey Feingold.
Um, and if I recall right off my brain,I think it's LFLegal dot com or dot org.
I should have it memorized and I don't,um, but Lainey is, uh, is a well known,
(24:49):
um, civil rights lawyer, disability rightslawyer, and her website has a ton of
different information about, um, differentcurrent lawsuits and past lawsuits.
Um, and just informationabout the legal aspect of it.
So, um, for anyone out there who isreally interested, her, her site is very
approachable, very accessible, um, highlyrecommend taking a look, um, at that.
(25:12):
We'll make sure to put thatinto, into the show notes.
Now, um, Kate, I, I do think maybethis is anecdotal, but, um, my
personal experience interacting with.
You know, like, you know, federal, youknow, websites and state websites, you
know, basically, in other words, thingslike the DMV, where if you want to look
(25:35):
for information about, you know, prettymuch anything and, you know, in this
sort of, uh, uh, in a, from a federalbasis, especially, um, Most websites
now are actually very accessible andquite, quite, uh, it's quite an amazing
improvement from, from years ago.
Um, in fact, I, I have found that throughCOVID when perhaps that's one of the, one
(25:59):
of the things that sort of instigated thisduring that time, we all need resources
from our, our government, you know, inevery dimension possible, whether it be
for transportation to sanitation, to theCDC and, you know, all of that, right?
So I feel like that everything gotan upgrade in terms of accessibility.
(26:20):
Um, and I, and, and, and I mentionedthis also to observe that not
only are they more accessible.
But the websitesgenerally are just better.
They really are just, I feel like,you know, if we were to do a study,
it would be objectively better.
Just number of clicks to get to spaces,you know, being able to navigate,
(26:42):
you know, clearly from one place,because those are actually some
accessibility, um, guidelines as well.
It's not always just about, you know,like, that's your Image have an alt text.
Right.
Um, and so it's, I think it'sactually, it's, it's like accessibility
lift all boats, you know, we allget to enjoy a better, um, better
(27:03):
designed websites and resources.
Absolutely.
And that's something, you know, it'simportant to me that when we're talking
about accessibility, we really make surewe continue to center, um, disability
as, you know, as a core part of whyaccessibility, uh, is a thing, right?
Because we're creating products thataren't accessible and that's affecting
(27:25):
the disability community, um, andimpacting their ability to work with,
uh, with those products, with thoseservices, whatever they might be.
That said, there is a lot around,and there's a lot of people who
will talk about, and, and I havecertainly been one of them, that
accessibility is good for everybody.
Um, and so I always like to make surewe don't lose track of the fact that
(27:46):
it, you know, I don't want to, youknow, sort of erase the fact that
the disability community is reallyat the core of the work, but, or and,
accessibility is great for everybody.
And so earlier you were talking about,um, social media, and You know, I'm
thinking of all of the differentsocial media platforms right now
(28:07):
that have captions that you can add.
You know, thinking about TikTokvideos, thinking about Instagram
videos, etc., and there are more.
Um, the fact that there are so many peoplewho add them, Now, maybe some of them are
adding them because they know it's helpfulfor, um, you know, certain disability
populations, deaf, hard of hearing,hearing loss, you know, cognitive, um,
(28:31):
other types of disabilities that benefitfrom having those captions, but it also
benefits it perhaps language learnersof whatever that language may be, um,
to be able to see the text as they're,as, as you're hearing the language.
Um, it also benefits, I mean, thinkof you're on a bus going from your
(28:51):
home to your work or from, you know,your dormitory to your classroom
building, whatever, wherever you'regoing, uh, and you don't have your
headphones with you and you have yourphone on silent, but you're watching
the video and you can keep up becausethere's captions there, whether or not
you identify as having a disability,you're benefiting from those captions.
And so Um, there are a number of, so manymore examples, of course, we can, uh, talk
(29:15):
through, uh, or that, that I'm sure otherswould, would think of as well, where
it's, it was specifically designed as,as access, you know, assistive technology
or accessibility, however you want tocall it, um, but that it benefits others.
Um, and I think that's a reallyimportant piece, um, to know that when.
You know, we hear this sometimeswhen people are like, but I don't
(29:37):
have any, you know, studentswith disabilities in my class.
So why would I do thisor whatever it might be?
Well, first of all, youdon't know that you don't.
Maybe they haven't disclosed that to you.
But also, It's just good, gooddesign or it's good, um, you
know, user experience to be ableto include some of these things.
Um, and it, it often doesn't take toomuch effort to be able to add these
(30:01):
things, um, to what you're creatingand it, and it helps everybody.
Yeah, I, I, I agree.
I think it's, it's definitely one ofthose things is things that, um, you
know, I, I like to think of it almost likecooking, you know, like it, it's like the
special spice that it's so easy to have.
And then when you use it, you know,it's, it's food just tastes better.
(30:23):
In general, why are we doing it?
And so I think it's more like how canpeople get, and it's not expensive,
you know, so it's, it's, it's a, it'sa, um, it's something to, you know, to
be aware of, because I really believethat it's not like, does it add an
additional cost to product developmentas a product developer, I would say.
(30:46):
Yes, but there is a big but here,but it keeps us more disciplined
in how we design our product.
So we got a better productthat comes out of it.
It's almost like it did some freework for us to get our product better.
And so I don't know, like, maybe youcan look at a line item and say, well,
(31:07):
we needed, you know, something tooklonger or whatever, you know, like I
had to hire additional headcounts to,to make this work, but I think that
the product was better at the end.
I don't know whether I can reallysort of like justify like exactly how,
how much, how many percent better isit worth that exact dollar amount.
But I would argue at least for me rightnow, I wouldn't be able to go back to
(31:31):
not considering it because overall itcreates, there's a lot of other things
too, like for me, it literally go intoeven recruiting, I wouldn't, if I hire...
So two things, right?
If I hire someone today whodoesn't care about it, I probably
wouldn't want to hire them.
But if I hire someone today whocares about them and they see
(31:53):
that we don't care about it, theywouldn't want to come work for us.
So it's kind of like, uh,it's, uh, it exists in, in.
It permeates itself into everylayer of everything that we do.
Um, so I can't imagine it being like,it's, it's a, it's, it's, it's not only
a great thing and it helps us in somany ways, it's basically win, win, win,
(32:14):
win, win at every layer that we go to.
Right.
And like from the cost standpoint, and Iwas trying to think as you were talking,
if there are specific examples I cancome up with or resources, they might,
they might occur to me in a minute.
Um, but in terms of the cost, sure.
Maybe there's a small cost or like yousaid, maybe a harder to define cost if
it's about the, the, um, team that youneed to assemble or specific, whatever
(32:38):
it might be, um, a little extra timeto be able to make it accessible.
Okay.
But what we know is that what'sactually the most costly is if you
don't do that from the beginning, andthen you have something that you're
ready to ship software code, whateverit might be an actual product, and
you haven't made it accessible.
Um, And you realize either right before,that's what's costly because now you're
(33:01):
like, okay, do we ship it anyway, knowingit's not accessible, which damages your
brand and means your user, like youcan't reach all of the users you possibly
can, um, because they can't access it.
They can't use the tool or, orwhatever it is we're talking about.
Um, or you say, okay, pause,we aren't going to be able to.
(33:21):
put out this release or whateverit might be, uh, because we
need to make it accessible.
Now that's costing you money because nowyou're, you know, it's delaying, yeah,
all of the things that, that go into that.
And so, um, that's where I was saying, Iwas trying to think of a specific example
or resource I could point you to, butthere is a lot out there that talks about
how The cost of accessibility is actuallywhen you don't make something accessible
(33:45):
and then have all of that associated,um, stuff and activity around it versus,
okay, let's build it from the beginning.
Crucially, let's make sure that we'reincluding people with disabilities
through the entire process so thatit's not just, also a thing at the end,
it's from the beginning, all the waythrough, you know, ideation, testing,
prototyping, all of those things,depending on how you're creating products,
(34:09):
but, um, that's, that's really wherethe cost comes in, um, is not doing it.
So, and, and by the way, some of thesesort of harder to to measured cost
is some of them are, you just can't,you know, you, you can't even fathom,
you know, things like, because if itaffects, for example, the retention
(34:30):
of your own employees, that's right.
What, what's that cost.
That's an incredible cost.
You know, if your employee leavesyou because they go, I don't
want to work for an organizationwhere we don't care about this.
And when, uh, users ask us about it,our, you know, decision maker just
simply said that's not going to bepart of, you know, what we do, right?
(34:54):
I can't live with it.
Right?
Like you said, everyone, even if theyare not themselves, have any, identify
with any disabilities, they know someonewho is, someone close to them is their
best friend, their family member.
That's right.
Right?
And their family members may not betoday, but they may be You know, as
they age and, you know, and so on,they, you know, so it's, it affects
(35:15):
all of us and themselves too, right?
Absolutely.
For someone to like, youknow, to, to not have that.
I mean, the, the, the cost isunmeasurable in my mind, you
know, the lot is unmeasurable.
Um, so I, I don't, I hope that people who,who might listen to this will, will, will
agree that it's, it's not even a choice.
(35:36):
It's not a, well, maybe oneday we'll, we'll get to it.
Um, right.
It's, it's just something that, youknow, to me, it goes into, you know, it,
it becomes a, uh, you know, like beforeeveryone's aware, it's fine because we
just didn't know what we didn't know.
Now that we, we, I think when youstarting to get to a point, especially
with your help, you know, spreading theword to, to everyone, it's going to get
(36:01):
to a point where it's not acceptable.
I think that's a world we want to live in.
Yes.
It's not acceptable.
You know, correct.
Here is a preview of what's coming up nextin Part 2 of my conversation with Kate
Sonka, Executive Director of Teach Access.
I mean, as students are puttingtheir work out there, um, being able
(36:22):
to demonstrate, hey, I know whataccessibility is, generally speaking,
and I've done a couple things to myportfolio to make it more accessible.
That indicates a lot.
You know, they're thinking aboutinclusivity, they're thinking about the
different ways they're presenting theirmaterials, um, and their artifacts,
uh, and their work to the world.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you will hear partone of my conversation with Kate Sonka,
Executive Director of Teach Access.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication ScholarsConversations can be found on
(00:21):
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
My guest today is Kate Sonka,Executive Director of Teach Access.
Hi, Kate.
Hi, Jeff.
It's so good to be here.
It's really great to see you again.
And, uh, Kate, um, now, TeachAccess is a non profit organization.
(00:46):
Um, I want, why don't you tellus a little bit about, um, what
Teach Access is so that we are allgrounded to, to this, this episode.
I think it's going to be really exciting.
A lot of our listeners will be veryexcited about what you have to say.
Yes.
Thank you so much, Jeff.
And again, thanks for having me.
So glad to be here.
Um, so Teach Access, uh, as you said,we're a non profit organization.
(01:10):
Um, we're based here in the U S.
We're fully remote, so we don'tactually have sort of a home base.
I'm based in Michigan, we haveother team members in Michigan,
Tennessee, Puerto Rico, but we, wecollaborate with people across the U.
S.
Um, and our mission is to support,Educators and faculty, uh, to
(01:31):
teach about accessibility, digitalaccessibility and dis and disability.
Um, and so our, we also have programsthat, that support students as well, and
I'm sure we'll get into some of those.
Um, but our mission is to really thinkabout what is it that educators and
faculty need in terms of resources,Curricular materials, trainings to
(01:54):
feel informed and comfortable to beable to teach these topics to their
students, um, with the ultimate goalof closing what we call the, um,
Accessibility Technology Skills Gap.
Sorry, I stumbled there a bit, um, butthis idea that industry and definitely
the tech industry, but, but all industryis looking for recent graduates, um,
(02:19):
From from higher ed, uh, who knowssomething about accessibility and who
knows something about disability, um, sothat as they enter into jobs, internships
in these organizations, they know toinclude accessibility from the beginning,
um, so that products and services areborn accessible is what we call it.
(02:41):
So this idea that, you know, you andI are starting to work together and we
want to develop a new app, um, and Iknow that accessibility is something we
should consider, um, and, and you do too.
So we know, ah, we have to includethat from the beginning, um, because
We know that things will be put outinto the marketplace that are not
accessible, and of course what thatmeans is that people with disabilities
(03:03):
cannot interact with those products orhave difficulty interacting with that.
And so the idea is really we'relaying this groundwork, we're trying
to close the skills gap so that ascompanies are hiring students and recent
graduates They know that accessibilitywill be included from the beginning.
Um, and so we do a lot of workthat I know we'll dive into.
(03:24):
Um, but that's, that's our mission.
That is what a wonderful,wonderful introduction.
And what a, um, what a, whata, what a great mission.
And I should, I think it would beimportant for our listener to know
that, um, for those who don't already,Digication, um, and Teach Access,
(03:45):
um, have a partnership where, uh,we have, you know, we, I think.
I think you and I met through, I actuallydon't remember how we met, but I know
that we have a, um, a friend in commonand who is Mark Thompson, who happens
to be another Digication Scholar.
And he is, uh, Season Three, Episode 28.
(04:07):
Those are, that's what's in my notes.
And he's, um, he's from University ofIllinois in Urbana Champaign, who is
an accessibility universal design guru.
Um, And, um, I believe that he was inone of your, uh, founding board members
or something, right, at Teach Access?
Yes, yes.
He's been, he's been with TeachAccess since we kicked off in 2016
(04:30):
and has been just a constant supportand, and volunteer and just always
willing to share his knowledge.
And, and, and that's part ofour work too, is, is building
this network of other educators.
Incredible educators like Mark, um, aswell as people in industry, disability
(04:51):
advocacy, non profit groups, um, reallybuilding a network to help do this work,
um, because we can't do it alone, uh,and, and Mark has been incredible in
coming and talking with other facultyabout, here's what I've done in my
courses and how I've taught this,or, um, providing ideas on how they
could be teaching it in their courses.
So Mark is a big, big, bigfriend of Teach Access.
(05:14):
And so we, and I, and, and, andhe's a big friend of Digication as
well, which I think is so lovely.
And, and I think that the, um, uh, I thinkbased on all of that circles, we have
overlapping because we obviously bothhave interest in it, in, in accessibility.
Um, we got to know each otherand know, uh, having learned
(05:35):
about your mission, in which casedoes not really do a lot of, um.
You know, this level of partnershipwith organizations, but when we learned
about your mission, we thought, wow,what an amazing set of resources.
And, and since we work with a lot offaculty members and students across many
universities and K 12 schools, we thought,wouldn't it be nice if we can, um, uh,
(06:00):
you know, promote some of the resourcesthat Teach Access has to offer, which
is genuinely just good content for bothfaculty members and students, good for
teachers and students who are maybe, youknow, know, have heard a little bit about
accessibility, but don't know, don't knowhow to do it, you know, aside from maybe
(06:24):
the limited experiences with, oh, right,a video should have um captions and audio
should have transcripts maybe, and thatmight be the extent of what they know.
Um, and so what, you know, and, and,and it may not even be a huge part
of, you know, what they do day to day.
And, and, and for us tohave an opportunity to...
(06:48):
to, to provide some really quick,easy to digest resources for them.
Um, you know, is, is a wonderful thing.
Um, we don't necessarily needthem to get a PhD in it, but, you
know, knowing that is, is, is, isjust the, the basic foundation.
Like you said, that skill gap promotesthe idea that whether they're building
(07:10):
an app or providing services, you know,to, to, to their community, how, how can
accessibility be born with that idea?
You know, that comes witheverything that they do.
So maybe I would justclarify one thing, which is.
You know, we, you use the example ofwhat if we build an app together, right?
It sounds very Silicon Valley, right?
But there's also the same as if you area journalist and you're going to go and
(07:34):
work for a newspaper, a more traditionalmedia company when, but you are still,
it doesn't matter what your job is.
You could be a writer.
You could be an editor.
You could be a photographer,but you are going to.
Still advocate for accessibilityat whatever job that whatever way
that you contributed to society.
(07:56):
And I think that is just whatan amazing mission, Kate.
Thank you so much for bringing this,this, um, this organization to life
and, and, and, and, and, and heading it.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I really appreciate that.
I think you really, um,
noticed something that is really part ofour ethos is this Everybody should know
(08:19):
a little bit, um, so one of the phrasesthat we like to use a lot is we are about
breadth more than depth, um, and youkind of hinted at this in a few different
ways, um, but this idea that we're reallytrying to get a lot of people to know at
least a little bit, um, of course thatdoesn't mean that it will take care of all
the accessibility needs, um, that exist.
(08:40):
For all types ofdisabilities, of course not.
Um, but imagine what the worldwould be like if everybody at
least knew, Hey, you know what?
Accessibility has to be apart of the work that I do.
Just like you said, no matter where I'mat, you know, if you're a journalist,
what, what language choices are you makingin terms of the way that maybe you're
talking about people with disabilities?
(09:01):
Or, um, you know, ableistphrases or using plain language.
Um, and then of course the type ofmedia you're creating, what are you
doing to make sure that that mediaand the, and the stories that you're
putting out and information isaccessible to people with disabilities.
And that's really whatwe're looking at is.
If everybody knew a littlebit, um, think of how we would
(09:23):
continue to advance, right?
We will always need peoplewho are accessibility experts.
They're crucially important tous being able to do this work.
Imagine if their time was ableto be spent more on some of those
challenging accessibility questions.
How to make different thingsfunction in different ways.
Um, and maybe less time, less of theirtime, you know, training incoming
(09:45):
new hires on This is what alternativetext is, or here's what the Web
Content Accessibility Guidelines are.
Um, if everyone kind of understood,yeah, those things are out there,
um, I know how to do some of this.
I know where to go to find moreinformation, or have to call in the,
you know, the internal accessibilityteam, because this one is a little bit
(10:06):
more than what I'm Aware of enough tobe able to do, uh, if that makes sense.
So, um, it's really part ofwhat we're trying to do is broad
understanding about accessibility.
Um, of course, if you look atdisability, um, statistics, there's
so many different places you cango to find this information, but.
(10:26):
For example, the World HealthOrganization estimates that about 20
percent of the population, world'spopulation, has a disability.
It's likely higher, right?
Because it's self reported data, andthere's all sorts of reasons that people
choose not to report or aren't awarethat they have a disability, perhaps,
or don't think of it as a disability,or whatever that might look like.
(10:49):
So that means that one in fourpeople, uh, Actually, that's, yeah,
a little higher than that, I guess.
25%, one in four people hasa disability, um, or knows
somebody who has a disability.
And so when you think of it thatway, no matter what you're doing,
somebody will interact with, with yourwork who identifies as disabled or
(11:11):
knows someone who has a disability.
So it's crucial that weall are aware of this.
Um, another thing that, that, We talkabout often with faculty and students
is that, you know, the disabilitycommunity is one that any of us could
enter and at any time in our life, um,permanently, temporarily, situationally.
(11:31):
And so when we think of other typesof, um, identity groups that some
of us are born into, we're, we'remembers of those groups, right?
Our whole lives.
Um, disability is one that you can be borninto, but you can also join at any point.
At any time.
And so it truly does affectall of us in some way.
And so the more we can bring awarenessto that, that this is part of human, you
(11:56):
know, this, this is, these are humans.
We're humans.
Um, it's, it's importantto, to be able to do that.
So I think that's, that's,that's really, really great.
I, I, I wanted to paint a little picturefor, for us to ponder a little bit, which
is, you know, like, even if you are notsomeone who feels like, You're not, um,
(12:17):
you know, I'm not designing a product.
I'm not responsible for any of that.
I think, like you said, to participatedoes not require you to do any of that.
So for example, today we, we, um.
Many of us actively participatein, you know, social media such
(12:37):
as, um, TikTok and Instagram.
Most of these, you know,services are not designed with
accessibility in mind at all.
In fact, many of them, um, Youknow, it's not even in the roadmap.
There is no way to, to make it accessible.
The, the product itself was not likeyou said, born with accessibility
(13:00):
as part of its formulation.
Um, in fact, I would probably saythat for, for, for many of these
services, they have given up on peoplewho would not be able to access their
service and they're okay with it.
Yeah.
I don't know.
(13:20):
Yeah, that's an interesting question.
I, so I have to say, you know,part of the, the, um, work that we
do and the collaborations we haveare with a lot of tech companies.
Um, that's really where wewere born out of, actually.
Conversations that, um, somepeople at Facebook, now Meta.
We're having with some folks at Yahooand, and they were identifying the skills
(13:42):
gap and this was back in like 2015.
I mean, it's existed longer than that,but in 2015, they were saying, you
know, we can't, when we're hiring recentgraduates, they don't know about this.
And so, you know, I, there's,Always room for improvement.
You know, we're never, we'renever done with accessibility.
We never are 100 percent done with itbecause there will always be, you know,
(14:03):
a new update or, or you meet someone, um,or someone is using your product who has
a specific, um, type of disability thatyou hadn't thought about or considered
and, and, you know, need to go back andtake a look at how, how to make it work.
Um, so.
While there's plenty of, of space forimprovement, um, I do think there's,
(14:24):
you know, a number of, of companiesthat we work with who have internal
accessibility teams, um, who are workingreally hard to figure out how to, uh,
create new products that are accessible,but also remediate what exists out there.
Um, and I think, I think there's,There are all types of people at every
stage, right, of the process in makingtheir products and services accessible.
(14:49):
So, um, but that's whatour hope is, right?
If we can continue to reach, or as wecontinue to reach all of the students
that we can, they come into theseorganizations, whether it's Tech or any
organization, any industry, and they canstart to really move that needle, right?
That every meeting, someone saying,we have to make this accessible.
(15:11):
How do we do that?
Um, or, or where do wego to make that happen?
So, you know, it's a big, It's abig undertaking, uh, for all of
us, but, but an important one.
So, yeah, I, I agree.
And I, and I think that, you know,to the picture that I was going
to paint, which was, you know, itmight come a time where products
(15:34):
in general will find itself being.
Oh, we have to address this becauseour consumers are knowledgeable
enough that they expect it, right?
So similar to if you, you wouldn't beable to, I mean, if I go into a brand
new restaurant today and that thisrestaurant is not, you know, accessible by
(15:57):
wheelchair, I would notice it and I'll belike, well, how, how would you serve that?
And how did you even get tothis point where you can have
a restaurant that is new?
Right.
And, and, and it's something thatyou'd, you'd, you'd, you would,
you would sort of go, you would,you would ask questions about it.
And, and I think that that's, um,that's a really healthy thing.
(16:19):
It's a healthy thing for our society.
It's a, you're almost like giving itsome, you mean it, uh, um, uh, What,
what is it that I'm going to, I'mtrying to say you're, you're giving
it, um, sort of a defense mechanism,you know, a self corrective self, um,
mechanism by letting all of us, lettingthe general society gain a higher level
(16:46):
of awareness of digital accessibility.
We just talked about wheelchairs,which many of us would, would
know and notice, you know, right.
Right.
But when we are then starting to talkabout, um, digital accessibility,
we're not there yet, right?
Like you, as you mentioned, all alternatetexts for images, I'm sure that some of
our listeners will go, well, what is that?
(17:08):
Absolutely.
Um, and, uh, but, you know, As theylearn more about it, then it becomes
something that they go, okay, I maynot even be the one who's creating
something that will use this alttext or have anything to do with it.
But if I come across someone whotalks about it and saying that
(17:29):
they, they, they can't access animage because it was lacking this
text, I would know what it is.
And I would know that They should havedone it, and they would demand it, right?
And I think that that's,that's what it's about, right?
Getting that, that, thatliteracy out to people.
It really is.
And I think, you know, it's interesting.
(17:50):
You bring up the idea of how we noticeif something maybe isn't wheelchair
accessible, um, versus, you know, thinkingabout digital spaces and accessibility.
And some of that is by natureof, um, So we, we know about the
Americans with Disabilities Act.
Um, and prior to that there wereother pieces of legislation, um, the
(18:11):
Rehabilitation Act, um, and otherswho were identifying in the ADA for
short Americans with Disabilities Act.
ADA was signed into law in 1990,so not that long ago really.
Um, but what that did lay thegroundwork for, and what that required
was that we have to make publicspaces and, and others accessible.
(18:32):
You know, physical spaces.
And so, you know, people I thinkhave a more, um, a longer, have had
a longer chance to understand, like,okay, I understand what that means.
There needs to be wheelchairaccessibility into a building,
or there needs to be braille, um,available and in signage and so forth.
Um, where was the internet in 1990?
(18:54):
I mean, it existed, butnot like it does now.
Right?
I mean, not like it did even 20 years ago.
Uh, and so...
It's been, I think what you've identifiedis, is what a lot of us have been working
on in accessibility is that, you know,general public awareness, if you talk
about disability, um, or accessibilityas it relates to physical buildings, it's
(19:15):
like, oh, yeah, I understand that meanswe have to uh, you know, an elevator,
whatever, whatever those things may be.
There's many.
Um, they're just, there's no reallegislation that's been around as
long to say, here's what it hasto look like for digital spaces.
Um, there is something for, forlisteners, if they aren't familiar
with, it's called the Web AccessibilityContent Guidelines or WCAG.
(19:41):
Some people pronouncethat acronym WCAG or WCAG.
It's, you know, any number of ways.
Um, but this is a set of guidelines.
It's not legislation, it's not a law,um, but it's a bunch of very intelligent
people who know what they're doing withaccessibility who've come together to
put together, um, the set of guidelinesto help all of us understand, okay, how
(20:04):
do we make digital spaces accessible?
Um, and so that exists and many entities,especially anyone out there who works
for a university, you've probablyheard, okay, well, our university
says they're accessible for WCAG AA.
Um, so there's different levels within it.
Um, so it's, it's used as a tool, um,to help people understand here's how
(20:26):
we make digital spaces accessible.
Um, and there's a whole bunch ofother legislation that, that, We
could certainly talk about or thinkabout or that's coming down and
thinking about these, these phsy...
Uh these digital spaces, but um it'svery interesting for that reason,
because you're right that it is aboutawareness that some people are aware
over here on this side, because it's.
(20:48):
There's laws, or it's been around alittle bit longer, um, but the digital
space is still a very interestingone, uh, to be, to be working
in for accessibility, for sure.
And, and I think that the, um, I thinkthat the, um, the idea that, Uh, more
and more services will be accessible.
(21:09):
Um, it is a good thing youtalked about some of the big tech
companies who are participating.
And by the way, I don't meanto, you know, Of course, yeah.
keep up on them for not, um, for, fornot, you know, if they have things
that are, you know, that still needto, you know, improvements or whatnot.
I'm just thinking more of the, you know,and it's not about a big tech company.
It's about also, you know, Someonein a garage building the next, you
(21:33):
know, really cool, you know, photosharing app, you know, photo sharing
app is actually, in fact, one of thosethings that's it's photo sharing app.
How do I immediately think about photosharing also being an accessible version
of photo sharing from the get go?
So if, if, if that's part of your ownrequirements, part of your own, you know,
(21:56):
goals, then you might take the productin a completely different direction.
Right.
Absolutely.
Um, and, and, and by the way, just it's,it's also happens to be good business
because like you said, you know, maybeit's not one in four that you know,
cannot access a photo, but there issome significant percentage still and
(22:18):
laws of large numbers when, you know, asmall percentage of a very large number
is still a very, very large number.
Um, right.
And, and, and that'snot something to ignore.
Now, I do think that, um, and I, I,I don't know the history of this.
I probably should because I wastrained as an architect, um, for
(22:38):
the, you know, sort of physicalaccessibility, you know, sort of history.
Um, I see now that, um, All, ifI'm correct, all at least federally
funded websites and maybe evenstate funded websites usually are,
are required to be accessible.
Is that correct?
Either they're required, or theyare already being accessible.
(23:01):
So this is an interesting questionbecause if you so a lot of that comes
through actually through the ADA,because of the way that it's written.
It talks about public spaces needingto be accessible, and in rulings,
and I'll talk about a good resourceto check out more in one second,
(23:21):
but in a lot of these rulings and.
Uh, what's the word I'm looking for?
Lawsuits, I guess.
Um, the argument is the Internetis a public space because
everybody has access to it.
I mean, of course, there's the questionaround actually having access in terms of
bandwidth and ability, but as an entity,anyone who has the ability to get to
(23:47):
an internet space can get to it, right?
So, so that's how, um, some of thesehave been, uh, litigated, I guess.
Uh, and so when you think about that,you're like, okay, well, if the ADA
covers, uh, or, or talks about publicspaces needing to be accessible,
like, you know, federal buildings andstate buildings and universities and
(24:07):
all of these places, um, that's how,the, the conversation comes about
for digital accessibility as well.
Well, it is a public domain.
It's a public space.
It needs to be accessible.
Um, and for anyone who's like,wow, I'm really intrigued by this
and I would like more information,um, a super great resource.
(24:27):
Um, there's, uh, a goodfriend of Teach Access.
Um, she's actually on our boardas well, but Lainey Feingold.
Um, and if I recall right off my brain,I think it's LFLegal dot com or dot org.
I should have it memorized and I don't,um, but Lainey is, uh, is a well known,
(24:49):
um, civil rights lawyer, disability rightslawyer, and her website has a ton of
different information about, um, differentcurrent lawsuits and past lawsuits.
Um, and just informationabout the legal aspect of it.
So, um, for anyone out there who isreally interested, her, her site is very
approachable, very accessible, um, highlyrecommend taking a look, um, at that.
(25:12):
We'll make sure to put thatinto, into the show notes.
Now, um, Kate, I, I do think maybethis is anecdotal, but, um, my
personal experience interacting with.
You know, like, you know, federal, youknow, websites and state websites, you
know, basically, in other words, thingslike the DMV, where if you want to look
(25:35):
for information about, you know, prettymuch anything and, you know, in this
sort of, uh, uh, in a, from a federalbasis, especially, um, Most websites
now are actually very accessible andquite, quite, uh, it's quite an amazing
improvement from, from years ago.
Um, in fact, I, I have found that throughCOVID when perhaps that's one of the, one
(25:59):
of the things that sort of instigated thisduring that time, we all need resources
from our, our government, you know, inevery dimension possible, whether it be
for transportation to sanitation, to theCDC and, you know, all of that, right?
So I feel like that everything gotan upgrade in terms of accessibility.
(26:20):
Um, and I, and, and, and I mentionedthis also to observe that not
only are they more accessible.
But the websitesgenerally are just better.
They really are just, I feel like,you know, if we were to do a study,
it would be objectively better.
Just number of clicks to get to spaces,you know, being able to navigate,
(26:42):
you know, clearly from one place,because those are actually some
accessibility, um, guidelines as well.
It's not always just about, you know,like, that's your Image have an alt text.
Right.
Um, and so it's, I think it'sactually, it's, it's like accessibility
lift all boats, you know, we allget to enjoy a better, um, better
(27:03):
designed websites and resources.
Absolutely.
And that's something, you know, it'simportant to me that when we're talking
about accessibility, we really make surewe continue to center, um, disability
as, you know, as a core part of whyaccessibility, uh, is a thing, right?
Because we're creating products thataren't accessible and that's affecting
(27:25):
the disability community, um, andimpacting their ability to work with,
uh, with those products, with thoseservices, whatever they might be.
That said, there is a lot around,and there's a lot of people who
will talk about, and, and I havecertainly been one of them, that
accessibility is good for everybody.
Um, and so I always like to make surewe don't lose track of the fact that
(27:46):
it, you know, I don't want to, youknow, sort of erase the fact that
the disability community is reallyat the core of the work, but, or and,
accessibility is great for everybody.
And so earlier you were talking about,um, social media, and You know, I'm
thinking of all of the differentsocial media platforms right now
(28:07):
that have captions that you can add.
You know, thinking about TikTokvideos, thinking about Instagram
videos, etc., and there are more.
Um, the fact that there are so many peoplewho add them, Now, maybe some of them are
adding them because they know it's helpfulfor, um, you know, certain disability
populations, deaf, hard of hearing,hearing loss, you know, cognitive, um,
(28:31):
other types of disabilities that benefitfrom having those captions, but it also
benefits it perhaps language learnersof whatever that language may be, um,
to be able to see the text as they're,as, as you're hearing the language.
Um, it also benefits, I mean, thinkof you're on a bus going from your
(28:51):
home to your work or from, you know,your dormitory to your classroom
building, whatever, wherever you'regoing, uh, and you don't have your
headphones with you and you have yourphone on silent, but you're watching
the video and you can keep up becausethere's captions there, whether or not
you identify as having a disability,you're benefiting from those captions.
And so Um, there are a number of, so manymore examples, of course, we can, uh, talk
(29:15):
through, uh, or that, that I'm sure otherswould, would think of as well, where
it's, it was specifically designed as,as access, you know, assistive technology
or accessibility, however you want tocall it, um, but that it benefits others.
Um, and I think that's a reallyimportant piece, um, to know that when.
You know, we hear this sometimeswhen people are like, but I don't
(29:37):
have any, you know, studentswith disabilities in my class.
So why would I do thisor whatever it might be?
Well, first of all, youdon't know that you don't.
Maybe they haven't disclosed that to you.
But also, It's just good, gooddesign or it's good, um, you
know, user experience to be ableto include some of these things.
Um, and it, it often doesn't take toomuch effort to be able to add these
(30:01):
things, um, to what you're creatingand it, and it helps everybody.
Yeah, I, I, I agree.
I think it's, it's definitely one ofthose things is things that, um, you
know, I, I like to think of it almost likecooking, you know, like it, it's like the
special spice that it's so easy to have.
And then when you use it, you know,it's, it's food just tastes better.
(30:23):
In general, why are we doing it?
And so I think it's more like how canpeople get, and it's not expensive,
you know, so it's, it's, it's a, it'sa, um, it's something to, you know, to
be aware of, because I really believethat it's not like, does it add an
additional cost to product developmentas a product developer, I would say.
(30:46):
Yes, but there is a big but here,but it keeps us more disciplined
in how we design our product.
So we got a better productthat comes out of it.
It's almost like it did some freework for us to get our product better.
And so I don't know, like, maybe youcan look at a line item and say, well,
(31:07):
we needed, you know, something tooklonger or whatever, you know, like I
had to hire additional headcounts to,to make this work, but I think that
the product was better at the end.
I don't know whether I can reallysort of like justify like exactly how,
how much, how many percent better isit worth that exact dollar amount.
But I would argue at least for me rightnow, I wouldn't be able to go back to
(31:31):
not considering it because overall itcreates, there's a lot of other things
too, like for me, it literally go intoeven recruiting, I wouldn't, if I hire...
So two things, right?
If I hire someone today whodoesn't care about it, I probably
wouldn't want to hire them.
But if I hire someone today whocares about them and they see
(31:53):
that we don't care about it, theywouldn't want to come work for us.
So it's kind of like, uh,it's, uh, it exists in, in.
It permeates itself into everylayer of everything that we do.
Um, so I can't imagine it being like,it's, it's a, it's, it's, it's not only
a great thing and it helps us in somany ways, it's basically win, win, win,
(32:14):
win, win at every layer that we go to.
Right.
And like from the cost standpoint, and Iwas trying to think as you were talking,
if there are specific examples I cancome up with or resources, they might,
they might occur to me in a minute.
Um, but in terms of the cost, sure.
Maybe there's a small cost or like yousaid, maybe a harder to define cost if
it's about the, the, um, team that youneed to assemble or specific, whatever
(32:38):
it might be, um, a little extra timeto be able to make it accessible.
Okay.
But what we know is that what'sactually the most costly is if you
don't do that from the beginning, andthen you have something that you're
ready to ship software code, whateverit might be an actual product, and
you haven't made it accessible.
Um, And you realize either right before,that's what's costly because now you're
(33:01):
like, okay, do we ship it anyway, knowingit's not accessible, which damages your
brand and means your user, like youcan't reach all of the users you possibly
can, um, because they can't access it.
They can't use the tool or, orwhatever it is we're talking about.
Um, or you say, okay, pause,we aren't going to be able to.
(33:21):
put out this release or whateverit might be, uh, because we
need to make it accessible.
Now that's costing you money because nowyou're, you know, it's delaying, yeah,
all of the things that, that go into that.
And so, um, that's where I was saying, Iwas trying to think of a specific example
or resource I could point you to, butthere is a lot out there that talks about
how The cost of accessibility is actuallywhen you don't make something accessible
(33:45):
and then have all of that associated,um, stuff and activity around it versus,
okay, let's build it from the beginning.
Crucially, let's make sure that we'reincluding people with disabilities
through the entire process so thatit's not just, also a thing at the end,
it's from the beginning, all the waythrough, you know, ideation, testing,
prototyping, all of those things,depending on how you're creating products,
(34:09):
but, um, that's, that's really wherethe cost comes in, um, is not doing it.
So, and, and by the way, some of thesesort of harder to to measured cost
is some of them are, you just can't,you know, you, you can't even fathom,
you know, things like, because if itaffects, for example, the retention
(34:30):
of your own employees, that's right.
What, what's that cost.
That's an incredible cost.
You know, if your employee leavesyou because they go, I don't
want to work for an organizationwhere we don't care about this.
And when, uh, users ask us about it,our, you know, decision maker just
simply said that's not going to bepart of, you know, what we do, right?
(34:54):
I can't live with it.
Right?
Like you said, everyone, even if theyare not themselves, have any, identify
with any disabilities, they know someonewho is, someone close to them is their
best friend, their family member.
That's right.
Right?
And their family members may not betoday, but they may be You know, as
they age and, you know, and so on,they, you know, so it's, it affects
(35:15):
all of us and themselves too, right?
Absolutely.
For someone to like, youknow, to, to not have that.
I mean, the, the, the cost isunmeasurable in my mind, you
know, the lot is unmeasurable.
Um, so I, I don't, I hope that people who,who might listen to this will, will, will
agree that it's, it's not even a choice.
(35:36):
It's not a, well, maybe oneday we'll, we'll get to it.
Um, right.
It's, it's just something that, youknow, to me, it goes into, you know, it,
it becomes a, uh, you know, like beforeeveryone's aware, it's fine because we
just didn't know what we didn't know.
Now that we, we, I think when youstarting to get to a point, especially
with your help, you know, spreading theword to, to everyone, it's going to get
(36:01):
to a point where it's not acceptable.
I think that's a world we want to live in.
Yes.
It's not acceptable.
You know, correct.
Here is a preview of what's coming up nextin Part 2 of my conversation with Kate
Sonka, Executive Director of Teach Access.
I mean, as students are puttingtheir work out there, um, being able
(36:22):
to demonstrate, hey, I know whataccessibility is, generally speaking,
and I've done a couple things to myportfolio to make it more accessible.
That indicates a lot.
You know, they're thinking aboutinclusivity, they're thinking about the
different ways they're presenting theirmaterials, um, and their artifacts,
uh, and their work to the world.
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