We continue to explore the extraordinary journey of personal growth and self-discovery in episode II of our conversation with Dr. Patrick Green.
What does it take to embrace a growth mindset, allow oneself to explore, and document our active learning experiences?
Patrick is the Executive & Founding Director, of the Center for Engaged Learning, Teaching, & Scholarship, and a Clinical Assistant Professor at Loyola University Chicago @LoyolaChicago.
Watch the conversation on YouTube: https://youtu.be/ZrnfnhQwjVo
Highlights include:
Designing a comprehensible portfolio (0:00)
Let's talk High-Impact Practice (2:34)
Service learning (community-based learning) [3:13]
Connecting the High-Impact Practices (5:00)
The value of higher education (11:56)
The value of curated experiences (16:30)
The issues in Higher education (25:00)
Be inspired by our guest's ePortfolio: https://luc.digication.com/Patrick.M.Green/home
For more information about this podcast, please visit our podcast website using the link below: https://bit.ly/3MfBqbo
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#LearningOdyssey #PersonalGrowth #ExploreLearnGrow #GrowthMindset #ActiveLearning #ExperientialLearning #MakeLearningVisible #EdTech #Learning #DiversityEquity
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you'll hear parttwo of my conversation with Patrick
Green, executive director and foundingdirector of the Center for Engaged
Learning, teaching and Scholarshipat Loyola University Chicago.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
(00:21):
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication ScholarsConversations can be found on
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
I have found that people have done theportfolio work, sometimes their portfolio.
I mean, we obviously look at ourportfolios, but what I have found
is that they are just so much morearticulate in how to explain themselves
(00:44):
and sort of seeing what matters.
Yes.
As a matter of fact, we hear thattime and time again from our students
when our students do portfolios.
They will report that they are able, inan interview, they are able to articulate.
Themselves, their skills, theirexperiences so much better because
(01:07):
they've worked on this portfolio.
They've shared and articulatedin the portfolio, their
skills, their experiences.
They've curated it, right, sothey've made meaning of it.
And then they walk into an interviewsituation or apply to a graduate or a
professional school, they can articulatethis and they are leaps and bounds
ahead of other candidates becausethey've worked on a portfolio and we
(01:30):
hear that from students all the time.
They'll come back and they'll sharewith us, you know, that portfolio
I did, it helped me get thisexperience, it helped me get into
this graduate or professional school.
Um, it set me apart.
I went into this interview so much moreprepared because of that portfolio.
So we know.
It has an impact.
But what's so interesting is theway it has an impact, it's not, it's
(01:55):
not that all of the sudden, uh, the,the portfolio got that experience.
It's that it enhanced their communicationand meaning making of their skills
and their, um, you know, experiencesand all of the different assignments.
(02:15):
It just completely.
Allowed them to communicatethemselves better.
So I wanna switch a little bit.
We don't have to talk aboutportfolio the entire time, although
I would love with you, I feel Ican just talk about it for hours.
Um, but, um, I wanna save, uh, just alittle, you know, at least I wanna spend
(02:36):
some time on talking about, you know,experiential learning and community-based
learning, service learning, and so on.
Um, for those who might be listeningand are not familiar with all of those
things, or maybe they've heard it,but you know, they won't personally,
um, you know, have those experience.
(02:56):
Or maybe some of us, you know?
They've never been exposed.
What do you th...
cos, that's your job.
That's your day-to-day.
What do you tell them?
What's so...
All about this things, whyare they high-impact practice?
And how does that relate to portfolio,and the things that we talk about?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks for that question.
So, you know, community-based learningor service learning, and I use those
(03:19):
terms, um, interchangeably, um, is a formof, uh, teaching and learning where, uh,
you engage students in the community.
Um, Doing some type of community-basedwork, whether it's direct service,
volunteer work, or indirectly workingon a community project, then allowing
(03:42):
the students to reflect on thatexperience and connect it directly
back to whatever they're studying.
Uh, and so service learning andcommunity-based learning for the past
three decades has been a really powerfulform of teaching and learning because
not only has it brought studentslearning to life, so whatever they're
studying, um, has been brought to life.
(04:05):
It also has allowed.
The community to be seen asa really important player in
the educational enterprise.
So the community becomes aco-educator, uh, and by the community.
It could be a community organization,it could be members of a neighborhood,
(04:25):
um, or a nonprofit organization.
Uh, and the wisdom and experience andknowledge that resides in the community.
Is really brought to the forefront andas students are working with members
of the community or with a nonprofitorganization, they're also addressing
the priorities of the community.
(04:46):
So what really makes service learningor community-based learning unique is it
emphasizes both the learning of students.
And the priorities of the community?
Uh, I think more broadly, the termexperiential learning is really an
umbrella term for lots of differenttypes of, um, teaching and learning.
(05:08):
And so service learning, communitybased learning would be an
example, but you also have.
Internships.
You also have, um, global experiencesor study abroad experiences.
You also have undergraduate research.
So experiential learning tendsto be just a broad term that
encompasses, um, an experiencethat students have, um, over time.
(05:32):
Uh, and then deep reflectionon that experience.
Um, certainly, uh, assessmentand evaluation of the experience.
Uh, and then.
Uh, I think with experiential learning,always connecting it back to the
topic at hand or the theme of, of thecourse, what, what is being studied.
(05:55):
Um, and the reason that that all ofthese types of experiential learning
are often referred to as high impactlearning, again, just as I mentioned
with, with learning portfolios, isbecause it's about deep learning.
So learning that, um, transfersand is integrated over time.
And I think portfolios playa key role in that because of
(06:16):
that critical reflection piece.
So all of these types of highimpact learning require critical
reflection and portfolios are oneof the ideal, um, modalities for
that, that critical reflection.
Um, but my life's work has been reallyfocused on creating community-based
learning, service learning, experientiallearning opportunities for students.
(06:36):
Again, I think, you know, as, as you.
As at the beginning of our, ourconversation, Jeff, you know,
I found my intersection, mypassion at that intersection of
community and higher education.
Um, but at that intersection I alsosaw the, you know, the, the robust,
um, the cultural and social capital ofthe community along with the cultural
(06:59):
social capital, um, of the highereducation and how both of those in.
In that intersection in working togethercould be elevated, um, and celebrated.
Um, and, and that's where knowledgecan be co-created through community
engaged research or community basedresearch, um, through community
engaged teaching and learning.
(07:19):
So for me, I found my passion.
I didn't have the words for any ofthis when I was going through it.
Right?
I, yeah, I had to go through severaljourneys before I even had the language
or the words to describe to you.
This is the work.
This is where my life passion is.
Community engaged teachingand learning and research.
(07:40):
Um, if you had asked me that,you know, uh, 20 years ago,
I didn't have that language.
Um, uh, and so for me it hasbeen a journey as I discovered,
uh, some of my life passions.
It has been a journey forme to then also say I.
Oh, this is what I'm interested in andwanting to provide these opportunities,
(08:04):
um, for students, but also to providethese opportunities for faculty because
I think, obviously our goal is alwaysstudent success and student learning.
But the way that we get there isactually by working closely with
faculty and enhancing the capacityof faculty in higher education, and
then of course working closely withour community partners and listening
(08:27):
closely and deeply to the communityto say, what are those priorities?
What are your pressing needs?
What are the assets that youwanna celebrate and elevate?
And then how can we collaborativelyaddress the world's wicked problems
in order to better our localcommunities and address, um, all
(08:48):
of these issues both locally,regionally, nationally, and globally?
I, I love that, and I want to, I wannasort of look at it from a, from a, from
an angle that, That perhaps has been a,um, a challenge in higher education recent
years, um, higher education has been,um, under a lot of scrutiny and a lot of,
(09:17):
a huge microscope to, to try to, peopletrying to figure out, you know, this
whole idea of cost for higher education.
I think that there's no, I.
Arguing that highereducation is expensive.
Um, what some people don't know is it'salso expensive to run, to provide all
these services that you just talked about.
It's these, these thingsdon't just run itself.
(09:38):
Um, could there be moreefficient ways though?
I think that there might be, uh,but having all that said, one of
the things that people sometimesdon't get, and I think that what
you said is really pointing me out,the fact that you are not coming to.
This college necessarily, just toget those listed skills for whatever
(10:02):
major that you happen to be, becauseyou can kinda easily do that.
You can say, if you're gonna be anengineer, here is a list of skills
and sub skills, and we can sortof eventually list all of them.
It's a finite number.
It's a, maybe a huge list,but it's a finite number if it
divide 'em into little lessons.
The persons will get it, or theyread enough books, they'll get
(10:23):
all of this stuff, you know?
And the same reason that we don'tjust say, well, stop going to school.
Just go to the library has everything.
Or now, in today's world, go tothe internet, has everything,
go to YouTube, has everything.
Um, and in fact, what happens to societyhas now sort of reacted a little bit
by saying, Hey, here's some bootcamp.
Here's a a little, you know, Um,masterclass and this is how you
(10:47):
can learn how to do something.
You can just skip college.
And while I don't disagree that someof those things are really, actually
sometimes some of them are greatat teaching certain skills that
higher education need to be, uh, youknow, shouldn't be misunderstood.
That is only about acquiring those skills.
It's about those experiences.
It's also about this sort of, I lovewhat you said about community and.
(11:13):
On one hand, you are creating thepriorities and figuring out what
the priorities are in the community.
For the community.
You're also figuring it out for yourself.
Kind of like you figuring out mylife's work is, is about this and that.
When does a student havean opportunity to do that?
If they just go to like thisbootcamp, six week course?
(11:36):
Yeah.
They don't, you know,that's not what those.
But camps are afford,they're for something else.
Right.
And it's, it's not useless at all.
It's just not what highereducation is about.
Right.
It's partially about that,but it's also about some other
fundamental part of development.
The human development.
Yeah.
You know, for themselves and for others.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(11:56):
Again, as you said, you know,higher education has been under
attack, it has been critiqued.
Um, And, and the value proposition of,of higher education and getting a higher
education degree has been questioned.
And we've seen that a lotin the past several years.
Um, and look, I, I have three kids, onein college, one about ready to go to
(12:17):
college, um, and the, my third, uh, afew years away yet, but will be as well.
And.
And here's what I have to say becauseI'm gonna speak from the lens of,
um, a, a scholar practitioner thatworks in higher education and a
parent, um, who's paying hefty bills.
Um, so I want to bereally transparent here.
(12:38):
Um, I think the critiques around thevalue of a higher education degree is.
Um, actually around how it'sbeing de defined and how
its value is being defined.
And I think it's being defined ina very narrow way if you're talking
about, um, uh, getting a job thatis a narrow definition of the whole
(13:00):
educational enterprise, um, thathas existed for hundreds of years.
And I would challenge that ifit's being defined, um, in very
specific ways with skills andcertifications, that is a very narrow.
Um, interpretation of thewhole educational enterprise.
(13:21):
It's also a very narrow interpretationof learning and development, and
I would ask people to reflect ontheir own learning and development
before they would categorize,um, A degree or higher education.
Um, because if you just reflect on yourown learning and development, um, then
that, that definition will broaden.
(13:41):
Uh, because higher educationis truly about young adulthood.
Um, Learning and development or fornon-traditional students, um, who
may go at various times in theirlife, it is about learning and
development at a different life stage.
Um, and I would argue that thatfocus on learning and development
(14:04):
is, if you unpack that, is richwith a lot of different dimensions.
That's a really multidimensionalphrase that I'm using when I
say learning and development.
Part of that learning and development.
May be related to skills and knowledgethat is connected to a career, but
part of that learning and developmentis going to be all these other
(14:27):
dimensions of what it means to be human.
It may be about the community andtheir civic role in the community.
Mm-hmm.
What it means to be civicallyengaged, what it means to
be a member of a community.
Um, part of that development might be, I.
What it means to be part of acertain ethnic or racial identity.
(14:50):
What it means to be part of, um, whereyou call the United States, your home
and you call another country home, whatit means to be transnational, what it
means to have home in multiple places.
All these other aspectsof one's identity are.
All part of that learning and development.
Um, and this is beyond identity politics.
(15:12):
This is again, what it means to be human.
And as people begin to identify forthemselves the meaning and meanings.
That they have in life, the priorities,where they spend their time, where they
spend their money, where they value, andwhat they value as they explore all of
(15:34):
that, that happens in an environment.
In higher education.
And that environment isa structured environment.
It is a safe environment.
It is also an environment that isbuilt intentionally and strategically
so that individuals can explorethat, um, so that individuals can
(15:54):
also open their minds to new framesof reference, to new perspectives.
Um, and all of that is.
Behind the intention of higher educationand that, that learning and development.
And so, you know, for, for me, when Ihear the critiques around the higher
education, around the value propositionof a college degree, um, however that may
(16:20):
be defined, if it's defined economicallyand by price point, it's defined
by the career and job, um, numbers.
Um, for me, part of the answeris in community-based learning
and experiential learning.
Um, because the intentionality ofthe connections that are created for
(16:41):
students through, uh, community-basedlearning and experiential learning,
these are curated experiences thatstudents can't get on their own.
In the same way, in the sameguided and structured way.
Um, and I think some people would arguewith that and say, sure, a student
could get an internship on their own.
(17:01):
Yes.
But is it an educational internship?
Is it an academic internship that iscurated, connected to a class that you
see offered, like at Loyola Universityof Chicago or at other institutions?
Right?
So again, these are curated experiences.
That students can't get in other ways.
Um, so what happens then is we'reconnecting students to networks,
(17:26):
communities, people, um, and studentsare connecting themselves through these,
their engagement to networks, communities,people, um, institutions, organizations.
And that process is where the, I think,um, Output and value of higher education
(17:51):
is just dramatically, uh, increased.
And, and I think that's whereexperiential learning plays a key role.
I, I, I really, I love that.
I agree.
I agree with you a hundred percent.
I too have three, um, teenagers who are,um, in high school right now, so I, my, my
(18:11):
bill is about to go up by a lot as well.
Um, I, I, I really do thinkthat there is a genuine part of.
Um, going through these, being ableto have that experience and figuring
out what matters to you, what areyour passion, what are the things
that make you happy, is is a ratherimportant part of the value proposition.
(18:36):
Who gets to just do that and explore?
You know, like it's hard to do that whileyou are working a job where it was highly
demanding and sure, you'll be learningthat skill and you may be making money.
Um, but that's, that's a big partof what, you know, you're getting
out of higher education now.
It's sometimes hard to see it becauseit camouflages itself sometimes while
(18:59):
you're doing it is not, you are not happy.
You're like, oh, this is so hard.
I'm like, like really stressed, right?
Um, but ultimately though, We, I thinkyou and I believe in the long term,
that's what's gonna bring happinessto that individual is when you become,
you know, you go through that phase ofwhen, just like when Patrick Green goes,
(19:23):
went through the face of figuring out,ah, this is what I'm about, this is
what my life's work is gonna be about.
Right?
But it doesn't come for free.
It doesn't come easily,at least for most people.
You have to really work at it.
And, and I think that's, that'sa, that's a big part of it.
But I also argue that on the flipside, society needs people like
(19:45):
this that are happily doing thingsthat matters to the world in a way
that is wise and that is clever.
That is, you know, going to do, youknow, tackle two things at once.
Um, that are not just stickingwhatever that's convention for granted.
Um, right.
(20:06):
And so in order for that to happen,you really need these two areas.
I mean, you, you want them to behappy people figuring out what
matters to them, and hopefully alignthat in such a way that will also
address the priorities of community.
Um, and now you have a generationof people who are gonna be.
(20:27):
Knowledgeable who are able to learnbecause they went through that reflective
learning, critical reflection, you know,per um, experience and, um, are willing
to dedicate their lives towards somethingthat's gonna be good for the world.
Um, I mean, that to meseems pretty worthwhile.
I.
Absolutely.
And, and what do we know about people?
(20:48):
We know people need meaningand purpose in their life.
Um, so how do we providespace for them to explore?
You know, what is meaningfuland purposeful for you?
Where do you find meaning and purpose?
Um, and how can you connectthat with your work?
(21:08):
Right now for some people they may,they may connect that to their hobbies,
to avocations and, and they may chooseto do work in another direction.
That's fine.
However you find meaning and purpose,make sure that that is something that
you center her, you know, in your life.
Um, and, and I think the realityis, is that we know that, um,
(21:31):
work is important also for.
A paycheck for the ability to payfor the necessities in life to live
safely, healthfully, and comfortably.
Um, and so the, this is in no wayto dismiss the necessity of work.
This is simply to elevate the dignity.
(21:52):
Of work.
Um, and so to allow people to recognizedignity in all work, um, you know,
I always make sure and, and, uh, youknow, for my children growing up to
make sure that they know, thank thosein the service industry because without
them, we wouldn't be able to go to arestaurant to function in an airport
(22:15):
properly and use the facilities.
Always thank those individuals andthe dignity of their work allows us
the privilege to use the bathroomto sit down at a restaurant.
Um, that is incrediblyimportant for us to remember.
Uh, and I think for us, elevatingthe dignity of work is not only about
(22:39):
honoring the multiple functions ofwork across all sectors of the economy.
It is also about recognizing thatwe hope people are able to find
meaning and purpose, uh, in theirwork, and that they see it as a
contribution to the larger society.
(23:00):
However, that may be the contributionof the individual who cleans the
bathroom is the biggest privilege.
That we have in this countryto be able to utilize.
If you look around the world and howothers around the world live, it is
a privilege that we are able to use afunctional clean bathroom, and it is
(23:23):
because of our brothers and sistersworking in the service industry who
have taken on that job and do it well.
That is dignity and work.
It also is an example of that ismeaning and purpose, and we hope that
individuals in all types of the serviceindustry, all types of jobs, professions,
(23:46):
in all sectors of the economy.
May they find not only dignity, butmeaning and purpose in their work.
Um, speaking of, um, sort of highereducation values and you know, and so
on, there are a lot of contemporaryhigher education, pressing issues.
(24:12):
Um, certainly in the last few years.
You know, we've seen.
Um, after George Floyd, the rereinvigoration of, you know, conversations
around racism, identity, um, there's,you know, um, the things like the Me
(24:33):
Too movement that have also startedother, you know, kind of conversations.
Um, there is AI in, you know, loomingover, um, Everyone and everywhere
in the world, including educationand higher education, what are some
of the pressing issues that you as.
Um, a leader in, you know, in aprominent university, uh, what do
(24:58):
you see, um, that you can share andwhat is on the top of your mind?
Yeah.
Uh, so thank you for naming, um,some of those, those pressing issues.
Um, I would underscore, um,a commitment to diversity,
equity, inclusion, and justice.
Um, you know, the narrativehas changed significantly.
(25:20):
We have, um, been forced toreckon with racial injustice.
Um, although our brothers and sisters,um, whose lived experience has been one
of racial injustice, um, especially, uh,the, the BIPOC Community, I would say
(25:40):
has been communicating this for decades.
We have been forced with themurder of George Floyd and
countless others to reckon.
With, with this and to face, um,that racism, uh, is um, an aspect
of our country, of our culture,of our, um, global community.
(26:04):
Uh, although it shows up in differentways and different cultures.
Um, and I think that, that withinhigher education, That, that is
something that we have to face, um,and have some really uncomfortable
conversations, uh, present and future.
Um, so I think the reckoningof, of racial injustice, uh,
(26:28):
is definitely at the forefront.
Um, I think the other element that wehave to really, um, reckon with is,
uh, The environmental, uh, injusticeand environmental sustainability.
Loyola is a leader inenvironmental sustainability.
Um, so I have several colleagues in ourschool of environmental sustainability.
(26:52):
Um, but you know, the climate change,um, And environmental injustice that,
that, uh, exists is, uh, certainlyon the minds of this generation,
um, of college students and of, uh,young professionals who are really
(27:13):
trying to lead us in, in change, um,to address, I think environmental
injustice and, and climate change issues.
And I think the third element that I wouldsay is really at our, um, That higher
education has to to deal with is, uh,you know, the Rogers Park community that
(27:38):
Loyola University of Chicago is in, isa community of immigrants and refugees.
It is one of the mostdiverse communities in.
The United States of America.
Um, and so with that comes greatcultural wealth as students are able to
interact with members of the community,um, who speak different languages,
(28:04):
have fantastic options for restaurantsfrom a variety of different cultures.
Um, but with that comesthis, uh, reckoning.
Of the fact that we are a country ofimmigrants and refugees and that that is
part of the founding of our country, itis part of the evolution of our country.
(28:26):
Um, and it will always be thecelebration of our country as
the United States of America.
And how can higher education be a leader?
In reckoning with, uh, immigrants andrefugees, um, in really, uh, creating
(28:46):
safe spaces and places as well as makingsure that doors are open, uh, so that
all of the individuals that find theirway here, uh, Are made welcome and are
provided the opportunities that we hopefor our children, the same opportunities
that we hope for our children.
(29:10):
Patrick, When do youwanna run for president?
You didn't realize that was gonna bea practice for a stump speech, right?
Um, no.
It's, uh, it's, it's reallyamazing what you said.
I think.
I think what you're saying is just,um, you know, these are, this is
(29:31):
why I love this idea of servicelearning and community-based learning,
because these are, you only get tofeel passionately about these things
and understand them intimately.
If you go out to the world and lookat it, you can't learn this through
a book watching a documentary.
(29:52):
You have to go interact with people.
And you talk to them and you see them,you observe, you, you, you give, and
then you, you know, you try to try,try to get something back and it's
only through all of these types ofexperiences that you can, um, you know,
(30:12):
um, I wanna share something that I'm soglad that this is just a podcast and a,
not like a scholarly defense, cuz I haveno idea who actually said this first,
but I, I think I heard Steven Colbert.
Someone from Chicago, well at leasthad a, a big stint in Chicago,
called Chicago, I think probablyhis second home or something.
(30:32):
Um, who said, I think one time hesaid he was talking about service.
I think he was talking aboutservice with the great John Batiste.
Um, the musician who was, who usedto be, you know, playing on his
band and now has moved on, became a.
Like, uh, platinum sold out artists.
Um, really pretty amazing, youknow, amazing guy, you know, itself.
(30:53):
I think they were talking about service.
I really loved the two ofthem talking about this.
And Steven Colbert said, uh,something along the lines of
service is love made visible.
Um, and it's very, you know,like you talked a lot about that
learning, you know, made visible and.
And, and, and it alsocomes back in this circle.
I mean, when you said that, I keptthinking about that little interaction
(31:14):
and, and how beautiful that is.
And I, I think if thatdoesn't connect with people...
What does, yeah.
You know, this is it.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's funny that you say that upon my wall, um, I have a sign that
says Work is love made visible.
And that is, you know, that,that is what I believe.
(31:36):
I mean, for me, that is,that is what this work is.
I mean, it is rooted, um, Uh,in faith it is rooted in, you
know, purpose and meaning.
It is, it is rooted in belief and,um, and I think that's why for
me, community engaged teachingand learning is so important.
(31:57):
And, um, and for me, the answerof why higher education matters.
Well, um, this has been afascinating conversation, Patrick.
I feel like I can talk to youforever, and I hope that we
do get to continue this again.
Uh, at some point.
I feel like this, we'rejust scratching the surface.
Uh, I, um, I want to thank youagain for sharing all your insights.
(32:22):
Telling us about your story, tellingus about, you know, the origin
story of how your, your, your, yoursuperhuman abilities came to be.
And, and then also sharing a little bitabout, you know, what you have found and
what you have developed over, over thattime and, you know, have been able to.
(32:42):
Um, make all of the, all of, all of thatpossible in, in, and express that in
the form of higher education with yourstudents and with your faculty members.
I think that's just lovely.
Uh, what a, what a great, great wayfor me to, um, get inspired and I hope
everyone who's listening, uh, as well.
(33:03):
Um, are there any, uh, closingthoughts that you have, uh,
before we, we let you go?
And then, uh, but hopefully, you know how.
Have the opportunity to welcomeyou back in the near future.
Well, first of all, thank you so much forthe time and, and thoughtful questions
and dialogue and, and, um, it hasbeen a, a, a pleasure and I think, you
(33:25):
know, uh, My invitation for, um, anyonelistening is, uh, to continue to be in
process and to continue to explore, uh,and wherever they may be, uh, uh, maybe
try to explore something new today.
(33:47):
That's lovely.
Next time we'll talk about all thebooks and the articles and all the other
things that you do that we didn't get to.
But, um, thank you again Patrick,and let's talk again soon.
That sounds great.
I would look forward to it.
Thank you.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
This concludes our conversationto hear our next episode.
(34:08):
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(34:30):
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Thanks for tuning in.
Welcome to DigicationScholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Jeff Yan.
In this episode, you'll hear parttwo of my conversation with Patrick
Green, executive director and foundingdirector of the Center for Engaged
Learning, teaching and Scholarshipat Loyola University Chicago.
More links and information about today'sconversation can be found on Digication's
(00:21):
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I have found that people have done theportfolio work, sometimes their portfolio.
I mean, we obviously look at ourportfolios, but what I have found
is that they are just so much morearticulate in how to explain themselves
(00:44):
and sort of seeing what matters.
Yes.
As a matter of fact, we hear thattime and time again from our students
when our students do portfolios.
They will report that they are able, inan interview, they are able to articulate.
Themselves, their skills, theirexperiences so much better because
(01:07):
they've worked on this portfolio.
They've shared and articulatedin the portfolio, their
skills, their experiences.
They've curated it, right, sothey've made meaning of it.
And then they walk into an interviewsituation or apply to a graduate or a
professional school, they can articulatethis and they are leaps and bounds
ahead of other candidates becausethey've worked on a portfolio and we
(01:30):
hear that from students all the time.
They'll come back and they'll sharewith us, you know, that portfolio
I did, it helped me get thisexperience, it helped me get into
this graduate or professional school.
Um, it set me apart.
I went into this interview so much moreprepared because of that portfolio.
So we know.
It has an impact.
But what's so interesting is theway it has an impact, it's not, it's
(01:55):
not that all of the sudden, uh, the,the portfolio got that experience.
It's that it enhanced their communicationand meaning making of their skills
and their, um, you know, experiencesand all of the different assignments.
(02:15):
It just completely.
Allowed them to communicatethemselves better.
So I wanna switch a little bit.
We don't have to talk aboutportfolio the entire time, although
I would love with you, I feel Ican just talk about it for hours.
Um, but, um, I wanna save, uh, just alittle, you know, at least I wanna spend
(02:36):
some time on talking about, you know,experiential learning and community-based
learning, service learning, and so on.
Um, for those who might be listeningand are not familiar with all of those
things, or maybe they've heard it,but you know, they won't personally,
um, you know, have those experience.
(02:56):
Or maybe some of us, you know?
They've never been exposed.
What do you th...
cos, that's your job.
That's your day-to-day.
What do you tell them?
What's so...
All about this things, whyare they high-impact practice?
And how does that relate to portfolio,and the things that we talk about?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks for that question.
So, you know, community-based learningor service learning, and I use those
(03:19):
terms, um, interchangeably, um, is a formof, uh, teaching and learning where, uh,
you engage students in the community.
Um, Doing some type of community-basedwork, whether it's direct service,
volunteer work, or indirectly workingon a community project, then allowing
(03:42):
the students to reflect on thatexperience and connect it directly
back to whatever they're studying.
Uh, and so service learning andcommunity-based learning for the past
three decades has been a really powerfulform of teaching and learning because
not only has it brought studentslearning to life, so whatever they're
studying, um, has been brought to life.
(04:05):
It also has allowed.
The community to be seen asa really important player in
the educational enterprise.
So the community becomes aco-educator, uh, and by the community.
It could be a community organization,it could be members of a neighborhood,
(04:25):
um, or a nonprofit organization.
Uh, and the wisdom and experience andknowledge that resides in the community.
Is really brought to the forefront andas students are working with members
of the community or with a nonprofitorganization, they're also addressing
the priorities of the community.
(04:46):
So what really makes service learningor community-based learning unique is it
emphasizes both the learning of students.
And the priorities of the community?
Uh, I think more broadly, the termexperiential learning is really an
umbrella term for lots of differenttypes of, um, teaching and learning.
(05:08):
And so service learning, communitybased learning would be an
example, but you also have.
Internships.
You also have, um, global experiencesor study abroad experiences.
You also have undergraduate research.
So experiential learning tendsto be just a broad term that
encompasses, um, an experiencethat students have, um, over time.
(05:32):
Uh, and then deep reflectionon that experience.
Um, certainly, uh, assessmentand evaluation of the experience.
Uh, and then.
Uh, I think with experiential learning,always connecting it back to the
topic at hand or the theme of, of thecourse, what, what is being studied.
(05:55):
Um, and the reason that that all ofthese types of experiential learning
are often referred to as high impactlearning, again, just as I mentioned
with, with learning portfolios, isbecause it's about deep learning.
So learning that, um, transfersand is integrated over time.
And I think portfolios playa key role in that because of
(06:16):
that critical reflection piece.
So all of these types of highimpact learning require critical
reflection and portfolios are oneof the ideal, um, modalities for
that, that critical reflection.
Um, but my life's work has been reallyfocused on creating community-based
learning, service learning, experientiallearning opportunities for students.
(06:36):
Again, I think, you know, as, as you.
As at the beginning of our, ourconversation, Jeff, you know,
I found my intersection, mypassion at that intersection of
community and higher education.
Um, but at that intersection I alsosaw the, you know, the, the robust,
um, the cultural and social capital ofthe community along with the cultural
(06:59):
social capital, um, of the highereducation and how both of those in.
In that intersection in working togethercould be elevated, um, and celebrated.
Um, and, and that's where knowledgecan be co-created through community
engaged research or community basedresearch, um, through community
engaged teaching and learning.
(07:19):
So for me, I found my passion.
I didn't have the words for any ofthis when I was going through it.
Right?
I, yeah, I had to go through severaljourneys before I even had the language
or the words to describe to you.
This is the work.
This is where my life passion is.
Community engaged teachingand learning and research.
(07:40):
Um, if you had asked me that,you know, uh, 20 years ago,
I didn't have that language.
Um, uh, and so for me it hasbeen a journey as I discovered,
uh, some of my life passions.
It has been a journey forme to then also say I.
Oh, this is what I'm interested in andwanting to provide these opportunities,
(08:04):
um, for students, but also to providethese opportunities for faculty because
I think, obviously our goal is alwaysstudent success and student learning.
But the way that we get there isactually by working closely with
faculty and enhancing the capacityof faculty in higher education, and
then of course working closely withour community partners and listening
(08:27):
closely and deeply to the communityto say, what are those priorities?
What are your pressing needs?
What are the assets that youwanna celebrate and elevate?
And then how can we collaborativelyaddress the world's wicked problems
in order to better our localcommunities and address, um, all
(08:48):
of these issues both locally,regionally, nationally, and globally?
I, I love that, and I want to, I wannasort of look at it from a, from a, from
an angle that, That perhaps has been a,um, a challenge in higher education recent
years, um, higher education has been,um, under a lot of scrutiny and a lot of,
(09:17):
a huge microscope to, to try to, peopletrying to figure out, you know, this
whole idea of cost for higher education.
I think that there's no, I.
Arguing that highereducation is expensive.
Um, what some people don't know is it'salso expensive to run, to provide all
these services that you just talked about.
It's these, these thingsdon't just run itself.
(09:38):
Um, could there be moreefficient ways though?
I think that there might be, uh,but having all that said, one of
the things that people sometimesdon't get, and I think that what
you said is really pointing me out,the fact that you are not coming to.
This college necessarily, just toget those listed skills for whatever
(10:02):
major that you happen to be, becauseyou can kinda easily do that.
You can say, if you're gonna be anengineer, here is a list of skills
and sub skills, and we can sortof eventually list all of them.
It's a finite number.
It's a, maybe a huge list,but it's a finite number if it
divide 'em into little lessons.
The persons will get it, or theyread enough books, they'll get
(10:23):
all of this stuff, you know?
And the same reason that we don'tjust say, well, stop going to school.
Just go to the library has everything.
Or now, in today's world, go tothe internet, has everything,
go to YouTube, has everything.
Um, and in fact, what happens to societyhas now sort of reacted a little bit
by saying, Hey, here's some bootcamp.
Here's a a little, you know, Um,masterclass and this is how you
(10:47):
can learn how to do something.
You can just skip college.
And while I don't disagree that someof those things are really, actually
sometimes some of them are greatat teaching certain skills that
higher education need to be, uh, youknow, shouldn't be misunderstood.
That is only about acquiring those skills.
It's about those experiences.
It's also about this sort of, I lovewhat you said about community and.
(11:13):
On one hand, you are creating thepriorities and figuring out what
the priorities are in the community.
For the community.
You're also figuring it out for yourself.
Kind of like you figuring out mylife's work is, is about this and that.
When does a student havean opportunity to do that?
If they just go to like thisbootcamp, six week course?
(11:36):
Yeah.
They don't, you know,that's not what those.
But camps are afford,they're for something else.
Right.
And it's, it's not useless at all.
It's just not what highereducation is about.
Right.
It's partially about that,but it's also about some other
fundamental part of development.
The human development.
Yeah.
You know, for themselves and for others.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(11:56):
Again, as you said, you know,higher education has been under
attack, it has been critiqued.
Um, And, and the value proposition of,of higher education and getting a higher
education degree has been questioned.
And we've seen that a lotin the past several years.
Um, and look, I, I have three kids, onein college, one about ready to go to
(12:17):
college, um, and the, my third, uh, afew years away yet, but will be as well.
And.
And here's what I have to say becauseI'm gonna speak from the lens of,
um, a, a scholar practitioner thatworks in higher education and a
parent, um, who's paying hefty bills.
Um, so I want to bereally transparent here.
(12:38):
Um, I think the critiques around thevalue of a higher education degree is.
Um, actually around how it'sbeing de defined and how
its value is being defined.
And I think it's being defined ina very narrow way if you're talking
about, um, uh, getting a job thatis a narrow definition of the whole
(13:00):
educational enterprise, um, thathas existed for hundreds of years.
And I would challenge that ifit's being defined, um, in very
specific ways with skills andcertifications, that is a very narrow.
Um, interpretation of thewhole educational enterprise.
(13:21):
It's also a very narrow interpretationof learning and development, and
I would ask people to reflect ontheir own learning and development
before they would categorize,um, A degree or higher education.
Um, because if you just reflect on yourown learning and development, um, then
that, that definition will broaden.
(13:41):
Uh, because higher educationis truly about young adulthood.
Um, Learning and development or fornon-traditional students, um, who
may go at various times in theirlife, it is about learning and
development at a different life stage.
Um, and I would argue that thatfocus on learning and development
(14:04):
is, if you unpack that, is richwith a lot of different dimensions.
That's a really multidimensionalphrase that I'm using when I
say learning and development.
Part of that learning and development.
May be related to skills and knowledgethat is connected to a career, but
part of that learning and developmentis going to be all these other
(14:27):
dimensions of what it means to be human.
It may be about the community andtheir civic role in the community.
Mm-hmm.
What it means to be civicallyengaged, what it means to
be a member of a community.
Um, part of that development might be, I.
What it means to be part of acertain ethnic or racial identity.
(14:50):
What it means to be part of, um, whereyou call the United States, your home
and you call another country home, whatit means to be transnational, what it
means to have home in multiple places.
All these other aspectsof one's identity are.
All part of that learning and development.
Um, and this is beyond identity politics.
(15:12):
This is again, what it means to be human.
And as people begin to identify forthemselves the meaning and meanings.
That they have in life, the priorities,where they spend their time, where they
spend their money, where they value, andwhat they value as they explore all of
(15:34):
that, that happens in an environment.
In higher education.
And that environment isa structured environment.
It is a safe environment.
It is also an environment that isbuilt intentionally and strategically
so that individuals can explorethat, um, so that individuals can
(15:54):
also open their minds to new framesof reference, to new perspectives.
Um, and all of that is.
Behind the intention of higher educationand that, that learning and development.
And so, you know, for, for me, when Ihear the critiques around the higher
education, around the value propositionof a college degree, um, however that may
(16:20):
be defined, if it's defined economicallyand by price point, it's defined
by the career and job, um, numbers.
Um, for me, part of the answeris in community-based learning
and experiential learning.
Um, because the intentionality ofthe connections that are created for
(16:41):
students through, uh, community-basedlearning and experiential learning,
these are curated experiences thatstudents can't get on their own.
In the same way, in the sameguided and structured way.
Um, and I think some people would arguewith that and say, sure, a student
could get an internship on their own.
(17:01):
Yes.
But is it an educational internship?
Is it an academic internship that iscurated, connected to a class that you
see offered, like at Loyola Universityof Chicago or at other institutions?
Right?
So again, these are curated experiences.
That students can't get in other ways.
Um, so what happens then is we'reconnecting students to networks,
(17:26):
communities, people, um, and studentsare connecting themselves through these,
their engagement to networks, communities,people, um, institutions, organizations.
And that process is where the, I think,um, Output and value of higher education
(17:51):
is just dramatically, uh, increased.
And, and I think that's whereexperiential learning plays a key role.
I, I, I really, I love that.
I agree.
I agree with you a hundred percent.
I too have three, um, teenagers who are,um, in high school right now, so I, my, my
(18:11):
bill is about to go up by a lot as well.
Um, I, I, I really do thinkthat there is a genuine part of.
Um, going through these, being ableto have that experience and figuring
out what matters to you, what areyour passion, what are the things
that make you happy, is is a ratherimportant part of the value proposition.
(18:36):
Who gets to just do that and explore?
You know, like it's hard to do that whileyou are working a job where it was highly
demanding and sure, you'll be learningthat skill and you may be making money.
Um, but that's, that's a big partof what, you know, you're getting
out of higher education now.
It's sometimes hard to see it becauseit camouflages itself sometimes while
(18:59):
you're doing it is not, you are not happy.
You're like, oh, this is so hard.
I'm like, like really stressed, right?
Um, but ultimately though, We, I thinkyou and I believe in the long term,
that's what's gonna bring happinessto that individual is when you become,
you know, you go through that phase ofwhen, just like when Patrick Green goes,
(19:23):
went through the face of figuring out,ah, this is what I'm about, this is
what my life's work is gonna be about.
Right?
But it doesn't come for free.
It doesn't come easily,at least for most people.
You have to really work at it.
And, and I think that's, that'sa, that's a big part of it.
But I also argue that on the flipside, society needs people like
(19:45):
this that are happily doing thingsthat matters to the world in a way
that is wise and that is clever.
That is, you know, going to do, youknow, tackle two things at once.
Um, that are not just stickingwhatever that's convention for granted.
Um, right.
(20:06):
And so in order for that to happen,you really need these two areas.
I mean, you, you want them to behappy people figuring out what
matters to them, and hopefully alignthat in such a way that will also
address the priorities of community.
Um, and now you have a generationof people who are gonna be.
(20:27):
Knowledgeable who are able to learnbecause they went through that reflective
learning, critical reflection, you know,per um, experience and, um, are willing
to dedicate their lives towards somethingthat's gonna be good for the world.
Um, I mean, that to meseems pretty worthwhile.
I.
Absolutely.
And, and what do we know about people?
(20:48):
We know people need meaningand purpose in their life.
Um, so how do we providespace for them to explore?
You know, what is meaningfuland purposeful for you?
Where do you find meaning and purpose?
Um, and how can you connectthat with your work?
(21:08):
Right now for some people they may,they may connect that to their hobbies,
to avocations and, and they may chooseto do work in another direction.
That's fine.
However you find meaning and purpose,make sure that that is something that
you center her, you know, in your life.
Um, and, and I think the realityis, is that we know that, um,
(21:31):
work is important also for.
A paycheck for the ability to payfor the necessities in life to live
safely, healthfully, and comfortably.
Um, and so the, this is in no wayto dismiss the necessity of work.
This is simply to elevate the dignity.
(21:52):
Of work.
Um, and so to allow people to recognizedignity in all work, um, you know,
I always make sure and, and, uh, youknow, for my children growing up to
make sure that they know, thank thosein the service industry because without
them, we wouldn't be able to go to arestaurant to function in an airport
(22:15):
properly and use the facilities.
Always thank those individuals andthe dignity of their work allows us
the privilege to use the bathroomto sit down at a restaurant.
Um, that is incrediblyimportant for us to remember.
Uh, and I think for us, elevatingthe dignity of work is not only about
(22:39):
honoring the multiple functions ofwork across all sectors of the economy.
It is also about recognizing thatwe hope people are able to find
meaning and purpose, uh, in theirwork, and that they see it as a
contribution to the larger society.
(23:00):
However, that may be the contributionof the individual who cleans the
bathroom is the biggest privilege.
That we have in this countryto be able to utilize.
If you look around the world and howothers around the world live, it is
a privilege that we are able to use afunctional clean bathroom, and it is
(23:23):
because of our brothers and sistersworking in the service industry who
have taken on that job and do it well.
That is dignity and work.
It also is an example of that ismeaning and purpose, and we hope that
individuals in all types of the serviceindustry, all types of jobs, professions,
(23:46):
in all sectors of the economy.
May they find not only dignity, butmeaning and purpose in their work.
Um, speaking of, um, sort of highereducation values and you know, and so
on, there are a lot of contemporaryhigher education, pressing issues.
(24:12):
Um, certainly in the last few years.
You know, we've seen.
Um, after George Floyd, the rereinvigoration of, you know, conversations
around racism, identity, um, there's,you know, um, the things like the Me
(24:33):
Too movement that have also startedother, you know, kind of conversations.
Um, there is AI in, you know, loomingover, um, Everyone and everywhere
in the world, including educationand higher education, what are some
of the pressing issues that you as.
Um, a leader in, you know, in aprominent university, uh, what do
(24:58):
you see, um, that you can share andwhat is on the top of your mind?
Yeah.
Uh, so thank you for naming, um,some of those, those pressing issues.
Um, I would underscore, um,a commitment to diversity,
equity, inclusion, and justice.
Um, you know, the narrativehas changed significantly.
(25:20):
We have, um, been forced toreckon with racial injustice.
Um, although our brothers and sisters,um, whose lived experience has been one
of racial injustice, um, especially, uh,the, the BIPOC Community, I would say
(25:40):
has been communicating this for decades.
We have been forced with themurder of George Floyd and
countless others to reckon.
With, with this and to face, um,that racism, uh, is um, an aspect
of our country, of our culture,of our, um, global community.
(26:04):
Uh, although it shows up in differentways and different cultures.
Um, and I think that, that withinhigher education, That, that is
something that we have to face, um,and have some really uncomfortable
conversations, uh, present and future.
Um, so I think the reckoningof, of racial injustice, uh,
(26:28):
is definitely at the forefront.
Um, I think the other element that wehave to really, um, reckon with is,
uh, The environmental, uh, injusticeand environmental sustainability.
Loyola is a leader inenvironmental sustainability.
Um, so I have several colleagues in ourschool of environmental sustainability.
(26:52):
Um, but you know, the climate change,um, And environmental injustice that,
that, uh, exists is, uh, certainlyon the minds of this generation,
um, of college students and of, uh,young professionals who are really
(27:13):
trying to lead us in, in change, um,to address, I think environmental
injustice and, and climate change issues.
And I think the third element that I wouldsay is really at our, um, That higher
education has to to deal with is, uh,you know, the Rogers Park community that
(27:38):
Loyola University of Chicago is in, isa community of immigrants and refugees.
It is one of the mostdiverse communities in.
The United States of America.
Um, and so with that comes greatcultural wealth as students are able to
interact with members of the community,um, who speak different languages,
(28:04):
have fantastic options for restaurantsfrom a variety of different cultures.
Um, but with that comesthis, uh, reckoning.
Of the fact that we are a country ofimmigrants and refugees and that that is
part of the founding of our country, itis part of the evolution of our country.
(28:26):
Um, and it will always be thecelebration of our country as
the United States of America.
And how can higher education be a leader?
In reckoning with, uh, immigrants andrefugees, um, in really, uh, creating
(28:46):
safe spaces and places as well as makingsure that doors are open, uh, so that
all of the individuals that find theirway here, uh, Are made welcome and are
provided the opportunities that we hopefor our children, the same opportunities
that we hope for our children.
(29:10):
Patrick, When do youwanna run for president?
You didn't realize that was gonna bea practice for a stump speech, right?
Um, no.
It's, uh, it's, it's reallyamazing what you said.
I think.
I think what you're saying is just,um, you know, these are, this is
(29:31):
why I love this idea of servicelearning and community-based learning,
because these are, you only get tofeel passionately about these things
and understand them intimately.
If you go out to the world and lookat it, you can't learn this through
a book watching a documentary.
(29:52):
You have to go interact with people.
And you talk to them and you see them,you observe, you, you, you give, and
then you, you know, you try to try,try to get something back and it's
only through all of these types ofexperiences that you can, um, you know,
(30:12):
um, I wanna share something that I'm soglad that this is just a podcast and a,
not like a scholarly defense, cuz I haveno idea who actually said this first,
but I, I think I heard Steven Colbert.
Someone from Chicago, well at leasthad a, a big stint in Chicago,
called Chicago, I think probablyhis second home or something.
(30:32):
Um, who said, I think one time hesaid he was talking about service.
I think he was talking aboutservice with the great John Batiste.
Um, the musician who was, who usedto be, you know, playing on his
band and now has moved on, became a.
Like, uh, platinum sold out artists.
Um, really pretty amazing, youknow, amazing guy, you know, itself.
(30:53):
I think they were talking about service.
I really loved the two ofthem talking about this.
And Steven Colbert said, uh,something along the lines of
service is love made visible.
Um, and it's very, you know,like you talked a lot about that
learning, you know, made visible and.
And, and, and it alsocomes back in this circle.
I mean, when you said that, I keptthinking about that little interaction
(31:14):
and, and how beautiful that is.
And I, I think if thatdoesn't connect with people...
What does, yeah.
You know, this is it.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's funny that you say that upon my wall, um, I have a sign that
says Work is love made visible.
And that is, you know, that,that is what I believe.
(31:36):
I mean, for me, that is,that is what this work is.
I mean, it is rooted, um, Uh,in faith it is rooted in, you
know, purpose and meaning.
It is, it is rooted in belief and,um, and I think that's why for
me, community engaged teachingand learning is so important.
(31:57):
And, um, and for me, the answerof why higher education matters.
Well, um, this has been afascinating conversation, Patrick.
I feel like I can talk to youforever, and I hope that we
do get to continue this again.
Uh, at some point.
I feel like this, we'rejust scratching the surface.
Uh, I, um, I want to thank youagain for sharing all your insights.
(32:22):
Telling us about your story, tellingus about, you know, the origin
story of how your, your, your, yoursuperhuman abilities came to be.
And, and then also sharing a little bitabout, you know, what you have found and
what you have developed over, over thattime and, you know, have been able to.
(32:42):
Um, make all of the, all of, all of thatpossible in, in, and express that in
the form of higher education with yourstudents and with your faculty members.
I think that's just lovely.
Uh, what a, what a great, great wayfor me to, um, get inspired and I hope
everyone who's listening, uh, as well.
(33:03):
Um, are there any, uh, closingthoughts that you have, uh,
before we, we let you go?
And then, uh, but hopefully, you know how.
Have the opportunity to welcomeyou back in the near future.
Well, first of all, thank you so much forthe time and, and thoughtful questions
and dialogue and, and, um, it hasbeen a, a, a pleasure and I think, you
(33:25):
know, uh, My invitation for, um, anyonelistening is, uh, to continue to be in
process and to continue to explore, uh,and wherever they may be, uh, uh, maybe
try to explore something new today.
(33:47):
That's lovely.
Next time we'll talk about all thebooks and the articles and all the other
things that you do that we didn't get to.
But, um, thank you again Patrick,and let's talk again soon.
That sounds great.
I would look forward to it.
Thank you.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
This concludes our conversationto hear our next episode.
(34:08):
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The Digication Scholars Conversationseries is brought to you by Digication,
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Our website can befound at digication.com.
(34:30):
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