October 13, 2025 • 63 mins
Can AI help understand our emotional state? Nicole Gibson, founder of Love Out Loud and co-founder of inTruth, shares how a recovery journey became a product mission, and how she’s using AI in mental health to scale evidence-based impact, leadership, and a love-led culture.
Watch for:
From anorexia recovery to national advocate → AI product leader
The origin of Love Out Loud and community design that changes behaviour
inTruth: AI ethics, data consent, and measurable outcomes in mental health
Product mindset for founders: ICP clarity, tight feedback loops, and validation before code
Language, rituals, and narratives that convert without sensationalising trauma
Practical advice for young leaders on purpose, pressure, and burnout
🎙 Guest: Nicole Gibson — founder, author, former National Mental Health Commissioner; Love Out Loud, inTruth
👥 Hosts: Chris & Mark — Digital Nexus Podcast (Australia)
👉 Subscribe for founder stories from Australia’s AI ecosystem
👉 Share this with someone building in health, education, or social impact
Chapters
00:00 From Rogue & Rouge to Love Out Loud, Nicole’s Mission
05:30 Overcoming Anorexia: Nicole’s Turning Point
10:59 Building Love Out Loud: From Grassroots to Movement
16:28 Healing Mental Health: Shame, Support, Recovery
21:56 Inside Eating Disorder Recovery: What Actually Helps
27:27 Trauma, Belonging & Community Healing
32:57 The Philosophy of Love Out Loud (Connection over Fear)
38:26 inTruth by Nicole Gibson, Building a Trust Layer
43:55 Compassion in Practice: Everyday Mental Health Tools
49:25 inTruth in Action: Authenticity, Privacy & Safety
54:55 Advice to Young Women: Finding Your Voice
1:00:24 Founder Journey: Building Movements, Not Just Startups
Links & Mentions
Nicole Gibson — Love Out Loud / inTruth https://intruth.io/
Digital Nexus Podcast — Chris & Mark (Australia) https://www.digitalnexuspodcast.com/
Tools & topics: AI for mental health, ethical AI, customer validation, product mindset
Why this matters
If you’re a founder, designer, clinician, or policy maker, this episode is a practical blueprint for building ethical AI in mental health with real-world outcomes — from research and validation to community design and leadership.
Hashtags
#AI #MentalHealth #NicoleGibson #inTruth #LoveOutLoud #ProductMindset #EthicalAI #AustralianStartups #DigitalNexusPodcast
Other Links
🎙️our podcast links here: https://digitalnexuspodcast.com/
👤Chris on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/pcsinclair/
👤Mark on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmonfort/
👤 Mark on Twitter - https://twitter.com/captdefi
SHOWNOTE LINKS
🔗 SIKE - https://sike.ai/
🌐Digital Village - https://digitalvillage.network/
🌐NotCentralised - https://www.notcentralised.com/
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@DigitalNexusPodcast
X (twitter): @DigitalNexus
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sp (00:00):
Today we're joined by Nicole and founder of In Truth Gibson.
Nicole Gibson Nicole Gibson, oneInfluential People in True
company in the world that hasbiometrically track emotions.
So we're always subconsciously,we most crave and we most need,
(00:24):
quantify something that justBut, you know, to me it wasn't a
satisfying answer because theadaptation is like such a big
part of it, of everything thatyou're doing.
Exactly.
Adaptation, flexibility, theYeah.
I think is going to, um, be thething that that separates
amazing entrepreneurs from thosethat that can't go that kind of
(00:46):
extra mile.
And most amazing entrepreneursYou have to be a city like San
Francisco, New York, London, youknow, like you're not gonna eat
or pay rent unless you're thebest.
Every occupation that has beentheir emotion only deals with
(01:08):
It's conversation.
How are you feeling?
Well, I'm here because I don'tknow how to express how I'm
feeling.
So this is really unhelpfulIn truth, we'll hopefully
looking at this andback at the way we used to try
we were as a founder.
(01:30):
What's a non-negotiable?
I'd say that the biggest one isthat work life balance.
When you're solving somethingthere's no that is the balance.
That is it.
Um, don't.
When you raise your first bigPeople with lived experience of
(01:51):
conditions were seen as, um,voice in how mental health
I was following the guidance,meant to be a good performer,
which was, you know, heavilyAnd for someone that's going
(02:12):
You know, I dropped thirty kilosSo and that that happened in a
The weaker I got and the moreadrenal crisis or a heart attack
I wasn't I wasn't willing to dieabout more than that.
(02:33):
You can only experience theexperienced the deepest pain.
I had to rebuild my inner worldEvery thought, every behavior,
self-destructive, which becameI had to turn that into
something that actually helpedmy flourishing.
And I just thought to myself,like, there's got to be more to
this.
(02:57):
Nicole, thank you so much forIt's an absolute honor and a
pleasure to have you on ourshow.
Thanks, guys.
I'd love to kick things off justAnd I guess the knowledge and
into the world around AI.
Talk to me about the journeyyou are today.
No, I think like any founder,It's the journey starts long
(03:20):
Yes.
Um, and in my case, that's veryUm, when I look back at my
journey, what I think I see themost is how much I've always
been trying to solve this oneproblem.
And when I met you guys, um.
And I was giving that talk, um,think I was saying this to,
most obsessed with solving aAnd so when I go back in my
(03:47):
really childhood, seeing thehaving quite different
to many different schools, leftto go to an arts academy.
Um, you know, so very diverseTraveled the world at a very
Um, I was always perplexed bypeople's unwillingness to be
(04:10):
present with things that wereemotionally difficult.
And for whatever reason, thatthat I had and this problem that
know, if you now look at thetruth, which is a world first
to see emotion for the firstfirst time, to try to bring some
(04:35):
language of emotion.
Um, I can see that obsessionstarted for me at a very young
age.
I think it catalyzed when I wentthrough, um, adversity as a
teenager.
You know, I went to an artsI kind of call it the best and
The best years because I got towas performance I like.
(04:58):
That was my first love, forThe thing that I didn't have,
work can help people find, wasself-assurance and the emotional
pressures that I was under atthat role as a performer was
(05:21):
at a young age.
And for me, that resulted ineating disorder, which was, I
in that a lot of people that gochallenges, I think, you know,
Someone that's dealing withexample, you can't physically
(05:43):
think, somewhat easier tothrough anorexia, it's visible.
You know, I dropped thirty kilosSo and that that happened in a
And anorexia is often seen morecondition, but I kind of see it
(06:04):
I think that when you look atmirrors more of an addiction
because it's a compulsiveisolate you, that starts to
know, the things that you trulyand you develop a very sort of,
around your behavior because youAnd I think this is what's quite
(06:27):
different to anorexia from, foranorexia compared to other
conditions.
It's like you're unwell, but youSo if you think about most other
conditions, um, except foraddiction, you know, you want to
get better.
Yeah.
Cancer.
You want to get better?
Depression.
(06:47):
You want to get better.
Um, someone who's a drug addictor someone that's dealing with
anorexia often, you know, ittakes the absolute breaking
point.
Um, before they surrender, didnot know that it was like,
classified or like it's seenthat way and not as an addiction
just from looking at the outsidelike it's like exactly what you
described.
It seems like from people I knoware a lot of those traits.
(07:11):
So it's interesting that theYeah, I agree, I mean it still
Yeah.
I think even back then.
So I was diagnosed kind ofI'm thirty two now.
So we're going back sixteenyears ago in the mental health
system really like some doctorstook it on face value because
the definition of anorexianervosa means a loss of
(07:32):
appetite.
So, you know, they're treatingI'm not hungry.
And I can I can tell you righttoo, uh, humorous about it.
Like people that are strugglingwith anorexia are definitely,
definitely hungry.
You know, it has nothing to doUm, But I think, you know, there
(07:54):
different types of addiction.
Like there's a sort of gamblingAnd some people are now
acknowledging, uh, anorexia orother eating disorders as
behavioral addictions versuslike, physiological addiction,
which might be, I don't know,like heroin addiction, for
example.
Um, but within that, you know, Iwanted to live.
(08:19):
And I think at a very young age,deteriorated so much, being
sets you on a very differentI think, you know, I've had the
talk to so many different kindsAnd I would say in the kind of
(08:40):
afternoon of people's lives,these usually tend to be the
questions that people startasking.
What is the meaning of my life?
What is the purpose of my life?
You know, what does it all mean?
Um, but the addiction had suchan intense grip on me at such a
young age that I had to findthat will somehow to to overcome
it.
(09:00):
Because the other option was toHow did you manage to find that,
What was.
What was the driving force?
You know, it's a really it's abecause I think as as you fade
(09:21):
for me, that was as my body wasYou feel in that state you feel
I have so much vitality now andmuch I want to achieve.
And I can see the future soIt was like I was, you know, my
(09:43):
spirit was moving in theopposite direction.
I was becoming lifeless.
And as that nears.
Yeah, as that nears it, it'slike something very innate and
deep inside of you, you know,activates.
And the weaker I got, um, andlike, an adrenal crisis or a
(10:11):
clearer it got that I wasn't Ithat my life had to be about
And, um, especially because Ihad this talent that I loved so
much and I was dealing with thisvery deep heartbreak, actually,
because it was kind ofcomparable to, like, a sports
player that trains, you know,their whole college life and
(10:32):
then, um, has a life changinginjury and they're not able to
actually pursue professionalsport.
For me, I was following theguidance, actually, of what I
thought it meant to be a goodperformer.
Like I was trying to hit everybenchmark of what that perfect
young performer was, which washeavily linked to body image and
(10:54):
all kinds of things, um, relatedto that.
So to hit that point wheredoctor's orders was you can no
physically tolling on you.
Like, uh, theta, the type oftheta I was doing was very
physical.
So I wasn't allowed to exercise.
Wow.
I had to, um, deal with thatAnd it's like it, it's, I think
(11:22):
heartbreak to your firstit's how you envision your life.
So I had to sit with all thesedeep questions around, meaning
it's much more personal, isn'tit?
Like, because it's only youperformance like an athlete.
I've seen it, um, in thebasketball space where athletes
that either played college orprofessionally and all of a
sudden there's nothing they haveto stop for injury or for
(11:43):
whatever other reason, andthere's nothing else that they
know.
And it's like life becomesAnd they do have that heartbreak
Yeah.
It's harsh.
I've seen so exactly.
Especially because that industryespecially a young female
lose weight to a certain point.
And it's sort of I had toprocess this level of
abandonment, too, because it waslike I was meant to lose weight
(12:06):
to a certain point, but past acertain point, I became a
liability.
So I was encouraged.
Wow.
It was like a Goldilocks zone.
Yeah.
And until I was abandoned, youliberated me healing from that.
All the bullshit that people getjust vanity and hang ups.
And I just decided to do lifeSo I think I had a different set
(12:30):
You know, there's and I don'tLike it's a completely different
But obviously ADHD as a childDidn't fit in, couldn't learn
properly, like things didn't fitaround me.
So the one thing I learnt muchin the same boat, is turning
(12:51):
problems into superpowers.
Yeah.
To help us enhance the thingsget over that hump.
Did that come into play fortransitioned into, I guess, who
Of course.
Yeah, one hundred percent.
I think you have to like it'slike a there's there's polarity
(13:13):
Right.
Always.
And it kind of sounds cliche tosay, like you can only
experience the highest joy ifyou've experienced the deepest
pain.
Yes.
You know, but but that's trueit's this corridor that gets
And that depth always is aVery much.
And I think in pain, the mindgoing to get through that pain.
(13:37):
You know, for humans who acceptthat pain was meaningless or in
vain, I believe is one of themost psychologically challenging
things.
So we have to find a point ofAnd for me to find a voice,
going to be able to explain myperson could understand.
(14:02):
So how was I going to build myAnd for me, that that actually
Um, but beyond kind ofentrepreneurship, it was about
sharing my story and invitingother people to share their
story, which for the first I'dsay, you know, several years at
(14:22):
least of my entrepreneurialjourney, my focus was really
about that.
Like, I was actually not I neverput it that way.
I actually started in theis the opposite of big tech.
There's cope out there, folksI mean, you had some incredible
I mean, you were top one hundredthe age of twenty one.
(14:43):
Um, you had a strong voice andBut you've one of your first ten
not for profit was the rogue,Rouge, Rogue and Rouge
Foundation, which you founded atthe age of eighteen, which is
incredible.
Tell me about tell me about thatYeah.
So that that was, you know,tried to go to uni for.
Just thought the, um, I actuallydid get my degree, but I have no
(15:05):
idea how I got my degree, but Idid, um, you know, I lasted
about two trimesters before Iwas like, you know, after that
experience as well, I would sitin the back row of my lectures
and, you know, Facebook was justbecoming a thing that was like
twenty ten.
Everyone would just be sittingand I was going to a private
(15:26):
four or five thousand dollars.
No one was listening to theAnd I just thought to myself,
like, there's got to be more tothis.
Yeah, like, this cannot be, thisAnd um, I was I was thinking
about how I wanted to transformthat experience into something
meaningful.
Um, yeah.
And I eventually landed onwith a very different kind of
(15:51):
I saw happening in the mentaljust timing wise, for people's
before mental health became thisLike when when I say mainstream
kind of, are you a are you a Ksports players, royal family
members?
They all started to talk aboutIt became a cause that was on
(16:13):
This was right before that, andI had this very strong view that
the cause of mental healthdisorders, um, not exclusively,
but was largely a result ofsocial and environmental
causations.
And this at the time wasactually a really controversial
opinion because the leadingvoices were mostly, um, you
(16:36):
know, well-known psychiatrists,psychologists that really
believed this.
This really is a biologicalIt's more to do with your brain
Um, but I had my own experienceenvironment and changes to the
improve mental health.
(16:58):
You know, it sounds so obviousIt kind of does because, like,
through like, a war scenario.
You see how they get massivelySo had it not been for that
factor, their mental healthBut I guess they saw that as
But it's fascinating that weYeah.
And it was it was actuallyexperience of all kinds of
(17:25):
seen as, um, unequipped tomental health should be treated.
And when I eventually did becomecommissioner, the actual press
person with lived experienceMental Health Commission.
So it was it was a big deal thatwas actually a lived experience,
(17:51):
you would be disqualified toseen to be mentally ill, you
So you had people that, youan empathy, a true empathy for a
empathy, actually, that we'recalling all of the shots.
And I started to grow thisgrassroots movement around that,
(18:14):
actually transforming the skillsthat I learned in theatre, which
was around like the basics ofperformance, which is really
about showing yourselfauthentically.
Like I transformed that intoAnd I, um, in the early days of
my nonprofit, I would travel tocommunities and invite people to
share their stories, um, and seta set of a context that would
(18:38):
make that this really kind ofcathartic and healing experience
for people like, you know, trynot to judge each other, the
open minded very much, you know,um, and I would see the
transformation and people wouldtell me how transformative those
experiences were.
But this was so countercultureto what mental health said was
(18:58):
appropriate.
Mhm.
Um, and it was it was amazing toactually traveling the whole
Australia for about two and aUm, and in that time I visited
Wow.
Yeah.
And it became a tour.
The tour was called championsbasically by, like, me wanting
(19:25):
And then, um, it ended upwhich is now the National
called they merged with anotherSo art Australian retirement
Yeah, yeah.
That's right.
That's so good though.
I know and so like, you know itBut as an eighteen year old I
was like, oh my God, I'm amillionaire.
(19:47):
Yeah.
It's like I'm a sky high.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
When was that?
Like, uh what years?
Twenty thirteen.
Okay.
Well, the end of twenty twelve,um, and it became this
incredible tour.
So when we first, I then hadpeople and our two dogs, which
(20:08):
what type of dogs do actors.
Uh, so one was like a so my dogChihuahua, and the other one was
don't even know the breed.
Like a small white dog.
I can't remember the breed superYeah.
(20:29):
Not a not a Pomeranian.
Yeah.
I'm that's, you know, too manyyears ago, little white fluffy
one.
And like here.
Yep.
Yeah.
So small dogs that wereUm, and initially we'd have,
like, maybe five people turn upto these community workshops and
then just watching the power ofgrassroots movement building
actually were with writing tolocal journalists.
(20:52):
Obviously, we're going tocommunities where there's no
news happening in thesecommunities, right?
So you are the news like you arethe biggest thing that's
happened to the Jewishcommunity, just like outside
where there was the line justbefore getting in here, guys,
there's a miss Dior cafe,something opening up next door,
red carpet out there, and it'slike it seemed like it was for
this podcast.
It was not.
But you had that.
It was for the podcast.
(21:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So in Sydney, it takes a DiorIt takes, you know, someone from
So it is a but initially it wasYou know, people didn't want to
I also experienced hate, youthere's tenacity involved, you
keep showing up and at a certainAnd it was actually we were
(21:40):
and schools were asking us to.
And then, you know, Sun Tzu wasSo we were kind of we had this
engine where I really got toexperience growing this
grassroots movement from nothingto what became this national
tour.
And I heard in that time tens ofdifferent walks of life.
(22:02):
Um, you know, we all grow up inthe normal way to live.
And I think that that's it'smessage and why I'm here to help
no one way to live.
This is something that theatertaught me so much because as a
as an actor, you have to breakpast, break past the barriers
(22:24):
you create in your identity inorder to be versatile as a
performer.
Because if you can never imagineor a whatever.
You know, a bad guy or whateverYou can't play that role.
So you have to stretch what youidentity to be.
(22:45):
And those two and a half yearson the road just took that to a
whole other level of livedexperience, where I was talking
to teenagers in ruralcommunities that had never left
their community of a thousandpeople all the way to, you know,
boardrooms in, in, in citieswith people that have traveled
the world.
But the thing that touched methe most about that was, yes,
(23:07):
everyone's story had differentwrapping paper, different levels
of privilege, different lifeexperiences.
But as they would really get toof what they they were truly
Every person just wants to loveIt's so true.
(23:28):
And that was it for me.
When I saw that truth, I wasexpose that in, um, in a way
dependent on one individual,frontline mental health workers
the fly in, fly out doctors thatcommunities once every two weeks
(23:50):
everyone that needs help.
Um, suicide rates at that timewere on the rise, and I just
kind of went fullyanti-establishment to the mental
health sector.
And I was like, we need aAnd that was a very unique idea.
At that time, I had a lot ofI also had a lot of hate, as you
(24:11):
would, you know, you wouldexpect.
Yeah.
Um, and yeah, that that led meto serve as a commissioner,
because actually the ideas thatwe were implementing in those
communities worked.
You know, they worked in a veryGo figure.
It was basic communication andIt's like the one thing the
(24:31):
You know, show some love andYeah.
And make people feel like It's.
And it's something like a lot ofThey might not be rich in other
means, but we we do all havethat capacity and currency to
give as much as we can in termsof kindness.
Well, yeah.
All we need to develop thatwhat I saw.
It's like the art offacilitation is you're creating
(24:55):
a container where people canjust kind of put whatever
they're going through at thedoor for a minute and listen,
and then also have theopportunity to share their
story.
And in that you have kind of twosudden people do have a
They have a willingness to showThey have a willingness to a
(25:20):
in a different way.
But transferring that to thelives, to me, became the next
really good at creating spaces,eventually run retreats all over
And these were deeplytransformational experiences,
very unconventional, but deeplytransformational.
(25:42):
We'd have people leavingretreats like, you know, leaving
twenty year relationships,quitting jobs.
And then also a part of me wasdo about integration?
Because you expose people andYou know that you don't have to
You can make a different choice.
And I think entrepreneurs arehave to recreate yourself
(26:06):
that next level.
Definitely, the adaptation iseverything that you're doing.
Exactly.
Adaptation, flexibility, theYeah, I think is going to, um,
be the thing that separatesamazing entrepreneurs from those
that that can't go that extramile.
And most amazing entrepreneursYou have to be relatively
(26:30):
You have to have a delusionalYou have to be a psychopath.
Yeah, but I, I like to sort ofangle, which is, yes, I agree in
understand how reality actuallyare we are creating reality
(26:53):
with our frequency in allSo it's it's less about delusion
time to curate your inner world.
And I think going throughto rebuild my inner world from
Every thought, every behavior,self-destructive, which became
(27:15):
I had to turn that intosomething that actually helped
my flourishing, and I had to dothat consciously.
But a lot of people go throughchallenge what they believe.
They never challenge the waythat they see the world, what
they think, and that that wasthe gift.
And I think that's the gift inall adversity is if you want
your life to start moving in adifferent direction, you've got
to change how going through theexperience leading up to where
(27:38):
you are.
In truth, what were some of theyou know, twenty one being in
oh man, I mean, yeah, as anknow, intellectually, I had the
(27:59):
those kinds of roles.
Young.
But a twenty one year old is aand I think that as a society,
appreciate or understand.
It's the same with, say, youthat that rise very young.
Like, you know, they haveThe talent is undeniable.
(28:19):
Yeah.
Um, or they have theintelligence is undeniable.
But at the end of the day, likeAnd there were so many hard
acted out like I had theI, you know, I was so hard
working, um, really all throughmy teenage years and then
(28:41):
probably until twenty two,twenty three and then my life
kind of had this, like, starkcontrast for a minute where I
had high levels ofresponsibility.
But I would party really hard.
And I look back and I'm like,trying to cope.
I was trying to cope with theI was trying to, uh, I didn't
(29:06):
weekend and tell my twenty yearwriting recommendations for a
You know, I just I had no way ofThere's no easing into it.
By the sounds of it, though, itwas impossible, you know, and
then I also I mean, you guyswanted to get personal, but, you
know, I, I also developedrelationships with much older
(29:27):
people.
And I think that that's what Ineeded actually, because they
had more capability ofunderstanding me.
But then in some ways, I kind ofmissed out on what a normal I
feel like.
I lost my teenage years to anearly to mid twenties to
responsibility and then kind ofseven until thirty whilst I was
(29:54):
and doing all the things that aI had to rediscover myself.
Wow.
And that was like a, um, thatsoul for me.
I see a title in there, like howbuilding my startup helped me
find myself or something likethat.
I was gonna say, did in truthWas totally and like, as a
(30:15):
I always see life as art and andYou know, we're always
subconsciously, I think buildingthe thing that we most crave and
we most need, like anyone thathas drive.
People don't just have drive.
Drive comes from somewhere.
Ambition comes from somewhere.
If you were fully enlightenedand fully integrated, you
(30:37):
probably wouldn't have muchdrive.
You're just.
It's just an isthmus, right?
So anyone that has intensetrying to figure something out
There's an urge or somethingI've seen it come from actually,
come from a place of good.
(30:58):
Yeah, unfortunately, yeah.
I actually was at this investedAnd um, one of the questions
So the format was like a bunchof investors and then they
invited me in a couple of teammembers to get to know one
truth.
And one of the um investorsasked the table, what do you
think?
Uh, the common denominator is infounders that go on to build
(31:21):
unicorns?
And I'll never forget it.
One of the investors saidOh, great.
But I was like, you know what?
This is not advice.
If you traumatize your children.
Oh, goodness.
But I think, you know, a lot ofYou have different kinds of
Like, you have opportunisticemotionally connected to what
(31:43):
And it's more just like you seeI don't know, like the people
that supplied Covid masks intwenty twenty.
Mhm.
Probably wasn't coming from adeep existential or toilet
paper.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't want to judge because Istory, but I, you know, I would,
really go on to do somethingMhm.
(32:06):
There was obviously there wasinflicted by the system.
Yeah.
Otherwise what's the motivationchange that narrative, whether
you've seen from someone else,and you feel.
Yeah, definitely.
I think it comes back to whatknow, I wonder if, um, Australia
(32:28):
things are really good hereas many entrepreneurs sort of
we got there.
The pain is, is not as muchThere's one hundred like we've
got a good economic system,we've got a good financial
system.
Yeah, yeah, that that isThat's if you go to a city like
London, you know, like you'reyou're the best cheese.
(32:53):
And actually the average it wastold me this when I first moved
God, what have I done?
She said.
The average amount of time thatexpats or foreigners, even
people that moved to Californiafrom interstate America, the the
average amount of time thatpeople lost in LA and San
Francisco is less than threemonths.
Wow.
So it it because it's you knowSo if you you have to commit and
(33:21):
I mean, any like, expert who'snationality that's gone to a,
Like you go to the Department ofyou you're gonna like I. I
level of rage in me.
Like.
Like they make you wait for,I was gonna say, that's when you
(33:42):
realize you're part of thesystem.
That's like.
Yeah, like it just everything isTrying to figure out the
Like there's no place you can goAmerica, that's like, okay,
survive in in America.
You know, it's it's verydifferent, I think, to being an
expat.
I don't know, in like Southeastthe lifestyle is, is easy.
(34:08):
You know, America is not an easyAnd so to to make it there and
getting the visa process, youSecurity number, figuring out
You've got to want it.
So that's from movements toTech entrepreneur.
(34:29):
How has this journey brought youI guess in terms of building
out, in truth, how are youseeing yourself now and how is
in truth, I guess, become yourbaby?
Yeah.
So what I came to through thethose experiences like
(34:50):
the opposite of grassroots,or, you know, informing policy
politician, but you're involvedUm, I realized that both those
solution, which seems kind ofsolve because it was a paradox.
(35:11):
How do you create somethinghyper personal, which is what
frontline mental health workersor people like myself who were
trying to do grassrootsmovements.
Um, so very, very personal andhuman with the scale that came
from, say, the distribution offederal budget.
How do you have both of thoseAnd I didn't jump straight to
(35:33):
tech, actually, when I leftpolitics or like I like to say,
retired from politics at twentyfive, um.
Went on a soul searching tripYeah.
Did a vow of silence in thereally went deep?
I actually wrote a book and thatwas kind of like my the
beginning of my therapeuticjourney.
(35:55):
And the book started to growthis, um, this following of
people that really loved andbelieved in what the book was
about.
And the book is called Love OutIt was a philosophy.
Yes.
Um. And Love Out Loud exploresSo the philosophy to sort of
that we are love.
was seeking love.
(36:16):
You know, that's what isboth good and bad.
Um, and loving out loud is theability to strip the limitations
and the resistances that preventus from just expressing that and
living that, and being that inwhatever form that wants to
take.
And people loved it.
You know, people have love outSo that was like a crazy thing
(36:38):
And that, that started, um, likeI was traveling the world and
that became my life for a goodUm, and I was experiencing scale
content, you know, that wasThat was that was scaling on a
(36:58):
global level, not just anational level.
But again, I just I couldn't letgo of how much I, I knew that
wasn't going to be the thingthat was going to change the
world in a thousand years fromnow.
But I wasn't a technologist,So it took me some time to to
first principles thinking.
(37:19):
And I think the space that thecreated, that was the first time
stayed still for you.
I always traveled, and this isdark night of the soul.
Like I'd never been around theI really had to face myself.
I was so used to I kind of goteveryone and everything in my
(37:46):
constantly traveled, sohappy to see me.
Then I got to leave.
Then it was, you know, myoften, so they were always happy
Relationships kind of the sameSo all these highs, highs,
was riding high basically fromthrough to twenty seven.
It was there was a lot of highs.
(38:08):
And obviously, you know, thereBut I was just there was always
everything stayed still.
And I realized that I wascreate a solution that wasn't.
And so I came back to firstwhat is really at the core of of
(38:29):
know, to date.
And it was to help people buildAnd then I this was basically my
Emotion is arguably the mostdefining part of the human
experience.
It drives more than eightyAnd so it literally is the thing
And that's on an unconsciousSo even if you're listening to
(38:51):
rational, you're not.
You're not.
Humans are not rational.
We're emotional.
We make emotional decisions thatAnd that's autonomic.
Emotions are happening every twoYou know, it's before the brain
It's often predisposed based onRight.
So you're.
Yeah.
Things you feel the decisionsimpacts of things that have
(39:14):
person you met, whether it's thethat type of stuff.
They trigger those constantchange of emotions and how you
bring in everything, how youinterpret stimulus, how your how
your physiology interprets itexactly.
And you don't even knowsometimes, like maybe other
people around you, if theyreally know you well, they're
like, hey, I think you're a bithungry or something like that,
you know?
Yeah, because you're getting alittle bit angry, but you don't
(39:34):
know.
You don't realize that you'reyou're strong headed too, which
people like us.
Like I'll be.
Yeah.
Working for like, you know,twenty hours straight thinking
I'm fine.
Yeah.
Because you're just strongBut your body has, like, a very
So true the measurement side ofI think getting to that like
interesting because that's a bigLike, well that's it.
(39:58):
And that's what I came to inthat thought process because I
was like, okay, this is the mostdefining part of the human
experience.
Who's measuring it?
How how have we think about thestandardized, we've standardized
We've standardized languageorganize complex thoughts.
(40:19):
It's allowed us to have debate,Without language, there'd be no
grunting at each other.
That was the original plan forYeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Got it.
There's a lot of followers.
Yeah, yeah, people thousands ofYeah, yeah.
Um, you know, so that level of,reach new intellectual heights.
(40:42):
Yeah.
The birth of, um, the Latinlanguage, etc.. And then we did
the same for time, GreenwichMean Time.
We standardized time.
And that allowed us to organizeIt allowed us to meet at a place
life to have more complexzones, etc.. Um, but no one had
(41:04):
The thing that was the mostdefining part of the human
experience.
And I got really curious aboutYou know, as I as my mind
Well, what if we could doWhat if we could build a
So I asked a lot of intelligentpeople why they thought this had
never been done, and everyone'sanswer was, well, it's just too
(41:24):
subjective.
It's too elusive.
How do you how do you quantifysomething that just kind of is
there?
But, you know, to me it wasn't aperson I knew from my work had
want to express themselves.
But so often not being able toemotional state was the reason
(41:51):
Um, and so that was kind of theAnd then the next was, well, how
Okay.
Well, emotion is autonomic.
It's happening in the nervousUm, so it is measurable actually
like we have this subjective Islayer, which is yes, it's
subjective.
Like when I ask you guys, howAnd you say, I feel happy.
(42:15):
Sure.
That's your interpretation.
Unless you're a Australian, it'slike, yeah, I'm alright, I'm
fine.
Fine, fine is not an emotion.
I like to remind people.
Your girlfriend is saying I'mIt's like she might not be fine.
Yeah, she's definitely fine.
Yeah, I can tell you that rightYeah.
So, um, that's what by the timeyou've said that, you've
(42:36):
actually experienced tens ofemotions that have triggered,
you know, like, um, likeneurons.
Neurons in the brain, like inUm, and I also recognize because
everything, every, um, kind ofoccupation that has been built
to try to help people with theiremotion only deals with the
(42:59):
subjective.
Like you go to a psychologist,How are you feeling?
Well, I'm I'm here because Idon't know how to express how
I'm feeling.
So this is really unhelpfulI mean, I'm not sort of shitting
on therapy as it's placed,right?
But but, uh, I think in truth,we'll hopefully pioneer such a
new way of looking at this andunderstanding it that we'll look
(43:22):
back at the way we used to tryto get there and recognize that
we were kind of, you know, usinga, um, uh, well, like reading
tea leaves.
It's it it feels like.
Exactly, exactly.
Great analogy.
Because because what you've gothere and in many industries,
like I've come from a backgroundof like, um, financial market
research and it's aboutqualitative as well as
(43:45):
quantitative.
So the qualitative have alwaysLike what does this piece of
But the quantitative thatimportant in that space.
And it feels like it wasn'tAnd now you're bringing that
Exactly.
Well, if you go back to theorigin of psychology, like go
all the way back to, um, CarlJung, like these are amazing
(44:07):
minds.
Psychology was the only quoteto be considered a hard science
is the only science, right?
I know that, um, and this is,within the, the, um, the
psychologists aren't real, youyou know, the data you, you're
(44:33):
So that's okay.
Look, I have total respect forI'm just trying to make it
Yeah, yeah.
That's it, that's it.
You know, and if you go to a GPwith my mental health, they'll
It's a Likert scale.
And they'll say, have you feltOn a scale of one to seven in
Like it's so okay.
Yeah.
It's like, am I gonna answerYeah.
(44:55):
Like I guess how many so, like,Prepare yourself for, for for.
Yeah I don't know.
Yeah.
Like.
Yes.
But also like, how do I quantifyLike, have you felt tired in the
Sure.
Like every human has, you know.
Um, so it's just bad data, likeAnd.
Yeah, like, in truth, isbringing up hard, objective,
(45:19):
reliable, continuous data, whichis the other thing, like, you
know, this sort of what the techactually is for the purpose of
your listeners.
It's an emotion biotechnologywearables like the Garmin I'm
model, which has been taught tostate and then can translate
(45:43):
This is taking a reading everySo all of a sudden we have
actually mapping emotion.
And when you think about thejust psychology by the way, but
most organizations, if you askdata right now?
Because it is very interestingThe sentiment of your team, you
(46:08):
feeling about their projects andin real time.
Yeah.
Well, the way that they'recurrently capturing it is an
evaluation once a year or twicea year, and it's a
self-assessment and it'ssubjective report.
So maybe you have you know, asas a company leader, you have
two data points annually onChris.
What if we could replace thatwith a data point every two
(46:28):
hundred milliseconds?
So the fidelity difference inLike that to me, is the real
goal is to have a data setthis data is considered equally
data points that we leverage andglobal decision making.
(46:54):
Because at the moment, globalYou've had projects like, um,
you know, the Global HappinessIndex.
You know, you've had peopleattempt it, but it's so hard to
implement.
It's still so subjective.
But this this gives us anability to actually build hard
data.
(47:14):
One of the points touched on is,in leadership and business.
Seeing how the team are trackingor even your yourself within the
business.
Um, not touching necessarily onthe security or the data that
your personal information, butthe, I guess the privacy around
your emotions in workenvironments.
How do you see that with yourSo the thing that comes to mind
(47:37):
is, I know you had a meetingwith your boss, didn't turn out,
didn't turn out as good as youthought.
And you walk out and you'reyour gut and watch picks up.
You're a bit of a heart rateincrease and you're a bit of
sweaty.
And so you're clearlyUm, and that data then goes back
called a manager, because it'sthe ones that get frustrated,
(47:57):
Yeah.
Inverted commas.
How do you perceive that inthe most common question we get,
So obviously it's a reallyimportant question because, you
know, if, if, um, anyone'slooked at any of Intuit's
content, like we are really gungho when it comes to data
sovereignty as a, as a topic ina subject.
(48:19):
Um, and I'm so, I'm soeven actively, um, lobbying in
biotechnology is, are regulatedUm, data is only used in the
interest of public healthbecause that is a that is a dark
rabbit hole.
We'll get to that in a minute.
Oh, we didn't even start.
But we were talking about theSo imagine like a machine having
(48:42):
that information, knowing howyou're going to react before you
do it.
Not good.
I thought we were calling themNo, but now knows your Yeah.
And all of your emotional.
Very scary.
So, um.
So the first thing we, um, as ayou're an organization that's
(49:05):
the employee, are the only oneWhat the employer gets is the
So there's no individuated data.
Very smart.
They they see the aggregateUm, and you even have to be at a
certain team size in order to dothat.
So it's, you know, impossible toBasically a small startup with
(49:26):
I know it wasn't me that saidBut, you know, that's that's
really interesting that you'redoing it that way because a the
company is still getting greatinsights at that aggregate
level.
Yeah.
Like yeah like Jenny from HRshouldn't really care about your
what you were feeling on Tuesdayat ten a m. You know that's not
the data that's going to helpthem make constructive
(49:48):
organizational decisions.
On the other hand, what's reallyindividual, as part of the
get that individual report.
So you get that, you get thatto understand yourself.
And we hope that that changesthen kind of twofold that the
organization can make moreconstructive decisions.
(50:10):
But the individuals are actuallyempowered with that
self-awareness and thatself-growth and seeing
themselves compared to what thenorm is.
And maybe it's like, wow, I'mdifferent versus my peers.
Am I in the right company?
Yeah, totally.
That, you know, you subjectivelyYeah, fine.
But I think, you know, it goesthis podcast, it was all about
(50:35):
of stuff, and there was no voicestandardize, measure, quantify
insights that are coming outbecause there is this what
hopefully, you know, it spreadspodcast, but from many.
It gives language to where therewasn't a language before and a
(50:57):
common kind of standard of doingit.
So it's amazing that standardskind of stuff.
I love that you've brought thatinto the conversation, because
this is why we call what we'rebuilding in Elm an emotion
language model.
Um, obviously, you know, a playof how nuanced it is.
(51:20):
Whenever I don't believe we'refully comprehensive
but what in truth can do is goBecause it's data.
Yeah.
So I believe that we canactually educate and empower our
users to such a degree that theybecome fluent in understanding
that data.
So say you're in a relationshipand you're going through
(51:41):
conflict.
Imagine being able to show eachother that data and have the
opportunity for immediateempathy.
Wow.
Past all the miscommunicationI know exactly how this conflict
I can read that data, actuallyThat's amazing.
(52:01):
Like, it's coming from mybackground as a data
visualization person.
Like I'm loving all of that kindBut just from having those
visualized is what gets you tounderstanding far quicker than
it's so hard.
Like, you know, I, for example,am quite a like a logical I have
(52:23):
strong logic.
None of us are fully logical, asBut if something if someone's
doesn't make sense, I reallyget past it.
Right.
So that that can mean that ifI'm not self-aware, I'm losing
empathy quite quickly becauseI'm getting hung up on what
they're saying.
Doesn't make any sense.
(52:43):
And as someone that really likeempathetic person to the best of
my empathy starts to waneBut if I had something that
truly made sense to me and Icould understand it, then I just
feel like for people likemyself, my empathy would just be
infinite.
(53:04):
And I think that would kind ofbe that's my hope, is that in
truth, can create this abilityfor us to just understand each
other at the deepest level andjust evolve beyond these
ridiculous conversations aroundvulnerability, being weak,
emotions being stupid to talkabout.
(53:24):
And, you know, there's justthere's such a high level way of
approaching this whole landscapein in my opinion, that's, um,
that actually comes down totrue, um, self-awareness at
scale and to recognize thatemotions are no different to
breathing.
Like, we cannot help it.
(53:45):
Um, and by hiding it anddoing through that repression is
um, the opposite.
You know, whatever's repressedin us individually or as a
society, we're going toexperience the other side of
that pendulum.
And that's exactly what we seeLike, you try to repress
sexuality and then you have ayou have a society that's
(54:07):
oversexualized, you know, andit's just trying to find its
balance.
But what if we could have theunderstanding and expose that so
that we were actually able to beconscious and balanced in our
decision making?
I think now, because of wheretechnology is tracking, that's
never been more important,because the risks that I see
especially, you know, living inSan Francisco, you see people
(54:30):
that don't have that emotional,spiritual maturity who are
inheriting ridiculous levels ofpower, like ridiculous, like
unprecedented levels of powerwhere single individuals have,
um, the ability to dictate whatlife looks like for billions of
people.
Just look at any of the currentYeah.
(54:53):
Everything.
That's insane.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we need this.
And and it's we need thosepeople to get interested in
this.
But we also need to help thedynamics and power imbalances
Like if we have individuals withthat much power, it's because we
(55:13):
have millions or billions ofpeople that are giving their
power away to singleindividuals.
And that's like it is goingThat track of thinking helps you
say broken our systems are,built to perfectly create the
(55:34):
But just how in need we are ofThat's a good way to put it.
What's next for in truth, whereyou're kind of in beta.
You know what's next.
So for us, um, our biggest focusis working with, what we're
classifying as high stakesindustries, high stakes, high
stress.
(55:54):
So that could be anything from,say, first responders to
emergency workers, even likelawyers, surgeons, um, where
they're dealing with very highlevels of, um, stress, probably,
you know, big emotional highsand lows and where their
decision making has very highconsequence.
(56:16):
That, to us is the kind offor early adoption.
Because when we show interest asa solution to these industries,
um, they correlate it withsafety.
So it's a it's a great, um,It's also very dynamic kind of
Um, meanwhile, we're goingSo I hope sooner rather than
(56:41):
FDA and TGA says you get thesoftware as a medical device
classification.
Brilliant.
Um, and through that process,we're where validating clinical
claims.
So diagnostic claims for examplelike as an as an example of that
in truth can predict PTSD or intruth can can support the
diagnosis of anxiety ordepression.
(57:03):
Um, once we have that tick, Ias a biomarker, no different to
to heart rate to actually makeintegrated into healthcare.
Um, when you see your GP, aphysician, that they would
consider that biomarker in thesame vein as every other
biomarker.
(57:23):
Yeah.
Building some health toolsourselves and working with some
pretty incredible people thatum, and the biggest thing that
we always hear is thatempathetic side of specialist
bedside manner and imagine themalready knowing how you're
feeling and being able to relateto you in that situation a lot
more with with a tool like thisor understand that like they,
you know, usually they see you,you're in this kind of state and
(57:46):
then they see heightened markersor whatever.
And then it's like, okay, thatBut I was even thinking with
immigrant parents or othera lack of understanding of your
Yeah.
Because maybe you will raisea different culture mismatch and
And then seeing your child andIt's not just them acting out
(58:11):
They are doing it anymore.
Yeah.
Like you're understandingbecause like you said, it's a
biomarker now.
Just like blood pressure.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Like you wouldn't you wouldn'tblood pressure of two hundred
You'd be worried about them.
Exactly.
You want a camel?
Yeah.
You don't like camel.
And it's, um.
Empathy is an interesting thingway that we experience it.
Right?
But I think with a commonmuch closer to that.
(58:34):
I've got some quick fireThis has been an incredible,
Thank you so much.
Um, but some quick questions forWhat's a non-negotiable for you
That's an interesting question.
Um, compromising my values?
Yeah.
(58:54):
Would be top of the list.
And there's different ways thatI'd say that the biggest one is,
that see the same future we do.
Work life balance.
What's the most important thingThat whole concept is like Like.
Especially if it's just, I don'tpeople that try to achieve that,
(59:19):
when you're solving somethingthere's no that is the balance.
That is it.
Yeah.
It's not like workplaces andcorporates going you have work
life balance when you take awaylife.
Exactly.
I love it.
There's no clocking off at five.
Yeah.
You're obviously we're here.
We talk about AI quite a lot.
What are the most interestingspace and potentially things
(59:41):
with the work that you do?
You know, emotion AI was not aI started in truth.
And now I don't know if it'sjust my echo chamber, but it
seems to be a really growingconversation.
Um, so that's, you know, an areavery closely and then broadly,
what decisions biotech companiesdeals they're making to.
(01:00:07):
That's something that I keepeye on because it's my passion.
Um, but yeah, like from the, um,uh, the side of building in AI
systems that, that improveefficiency.
Like, I'm all for that.
I encourage my team to do it asstay human and empathetic would
(01:00:31):
Final question.
Uh, if you had to start overtomorrow, what would be the one
thing that you would dodifferently?
Uh, that's so hard.
One thing, every country wouldYeah, I mean, the two things,
Okay, I want to find I want toactually be, like, the most
Um, don't.
When you raise your first bigchunk of capital, do not go and
(01:00:54):
hire the most expensiveexecutives.
There's the worst fucking thingThe people that just, like, want
their sleeves, are willing torate and that bring energy and
and be hands on.
I wish I had done that.
I love the reason I love that somuch is one of the biggest
(01:01:14):
things that people miss out onwhen forming businesses is
culture.
And if you just go out and findthat big executive high just
because of the number and theexperience, you're missing out
on building that cultural fromthe start.
Whereas if you find the rightperson from the start, they
blend well.
You you're going from a positivegrowth and they'll learn with
you and also the disposition,like I found, hiring those kinds
(01:01:35):
of people.
They sat back and they wanted aYeah.
And it's the opposite of startupYou need people that are dynamic
Yeah.
And the irony is, is that, um,as this scales and stuff, your
tool could actually be used tohelp other startups find those
right people, which is thereally.
Which is awesome.
Right.
But please don't like, you know,use it to, I don't know, fire
(01:01:56):
people and things becausethere's gonna be a PR nightmare
for us.
But yeah, looking at thecollective consciousness and
understanding coherence as a, asa, as a group, that to me is
like one of the most excitinguse cases.
Amazing.
Yeah.
Nicole, we can't thank youI've loved it.
You guys joining us.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Cheers.
Amazing stuff.
(01:02:16):
Very fun conversation.
That was beautiful.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, yeah.
So I heard somewhere that youWhen AI becomes like, when AI
(01:02:38):
Like, I remember having anlike, it was all about like, oh,
Blah blah blah.
We should look at the idea andyou know, the thing that kicked
Didn't expect like hundreds ofI'm like, I just want it to be a
But one guy was like, well, ifLike, okay, well, let's not talk
Like, you know, it's theslippery slope idea on the
(01:02:58):
podcast.
Yeah.
Because seriously, actually,If our tech starts to merge
also powered by AI, I thinkIs it so it's like a robot that
emotions and can manipulate you.
Yeah.
Like that's that's.
And then as a sex robot likethis is just a and then you have
(01:03:20):
all these incels in the worldthat just, you know, it's a dark
hole that that's what createsthe guy who made the nukes is
like, I become death destroyerworld.
Yeah, yeah.
We are.
Yeah.
We're recording.
It's like, you're gonna be
Today we're joined by Nicole and founder of In Truth Gibson.
Nicole Gibson Nicole Gibson, oneInfluential People in True
company in the world that hasbiometrically track emotions.
So we're always subconsciously,we most crave and we most need,
(00:24):
quantify something that justBut, you know, to me it wasn't a
satisfying answer because theadaptation is like such a big
part of it, of everything thatyou're doing.
Exactly.
Adaptation, flexibility, theYeah.
I think is going to, um, be thething that that separates
amazing entrepreneurs from thosethat that can't go that kind of
(00:46):
extra mile.
And most amazing entrepreneursYou have to be a city like San
Francisco, New York, London, youknow, like you're not gonna eat
or pay rent unless you're thebest.
Every occupation that has beentheir emotion only deals with
(01:08):
It's conversation.
How are you feeling?
Well, I'm here because I don'tknow how to express how I'm
feeling.
So this is really unhelpfulIn truth, we'll hopefully
looking at this andback at the way we used to try
we were as a founder.
(01:30):
What's a non-negotiable?
I'd say that the biggest one isthat work life balance.
When you're solving somethingthere's no that is the balance.
That is it.
Um, don't.
When you raise your first bigPeople with lived experience of
(01:51):
conditions were seen as, um,voice in how mental health
I was following the guidance,meant to be a good performer,
which was, you know, heavilyAnd for someone that's going
(02:12):
You know, I dropped thirty kilosSo and that that happened in a
The weaker I got and the moreadrenal crisis or a heart attack
I wasn't I wasn't willing to dieabout more than that.
(02:33):
You can only experience theexperienced the deepest pain.
I had to rebuild my inner worldEvery thought, every behavior,
self-destructive, which becameI had to turn that into
something that actually helpedmy flourishing.
And I just thought to myself,like, there's got to be more to
this.
(02:57):
Nicole, thank you so much forIt's an absolute honor and a
pleasure to have you on ourshow.
Thanks, guys.
I'd love to kick things off justAnd I guess the knowledge and
into the world around AI.
Talk to me about the journeyyou are today.
No, I think like any founder,It's the journey starts long
(03:20):
Yes.
Um, and in my case, that's veryUm, when I look back at my
journey, what I think I see themost is how much I've always
been trying to solve this oneproblem.
And when I met you guys, um.
And I was giving that talk, um,think I was saying this to,
most obsessed with solving aAnd so when I go back in my
(03:47):
really childhood, seeing thehaving quite different
to many different schools, leftto go to an arts academy.
Um, you know, so very diverseTraveled the world at a very
Um, I was always perplexed bypeople's unwillingness to be
(04:10):
present with things that wereemotionally difficult.
And for whatever reason, thatthat I had and this problem that
know, if you now look at thetruth, which is a world first
to see emotion for the firstfirst time, to try to bring some
(04:35):
language of emotion.
Um, I can see that obsessionstarted for me at a very young
age.
I think it catalyzed when I wentthrough, um, adversity as a
teenager.
You know, I went to an artsI kind of call it the best and
The best years because I got towas performance I like.
(04:58):
That was my first love, forThe thing that I didn't have,
work can help people find, wasself-assurance and the emotional
pressures that I was under atthat role as a performer was
(05:21):
at a young age.
And for me, that resulted ineating disorder, which was, I
in that a lot of people that gochallenges, I think, you know,
Someone that's dealing withexample, you can't physically
(05:43):
think, somewhat easier tothrough anorexia, it's visible.
You know, I dropped thirty kilosSo and that that happened in a
And anorexia is often seen morecondition, but I kind of see it
(06:04):
I think that when you look atmirrors more of an addiction
because it's a compulsiveisolate you, that starts to
know, the things that you trulyand you develop a very sort of,
around your behavior because youAnd I think this is what's quite
(06:27):
different to anorexia from, foranorexia compared to other
conditions.
It's like you're unwell, but youSo if you think about most other
conditions, um, except foraddiction, you know, you want to
get better.
Yeah.
Cancer.
You want to get better?
Depression.
(06:47):
You want to get better.
Um, someone who's a drug addictor someone that's dealing with
anorexia often, you know, ittakes the absolute breaking
point.
Um, before they surrender, didnot know that it was like,
classified or like it's seenthat way and not as an addiction
just from looking at the outsidelike it's like exactly what you
described.
It seems like from people I knoware a lot of those traits.
(07:11):
So it's interesting that theYeah, I agree, I mean it still
Yeah.
I think even back then.
So I was diagnosed kind ofI'm thirty two now.
So we're going back sixteenyears ago in the mental health
system really like some doctorstook it on face value because
the definition of anorexianervosa means a loss of
(07:32):
appetite.
So, you know, they're treatingI'm not hungry.
And I can I can tell you righttoo, uh, humorous about it.
Like people that are strugglingwith anorexia are definitely,
definitely hungry.
You know, it has nothing to doUm, But I think, you know, there
(07:54):
different types of addiction.
Like there's a sort of gamblingAnd some people are now
acknowledging, uh, anorexia orother eating disorders as
behavioral addictions versuslike, physiological addiction,
which might be, I don't know,like heroin addiction, for
example.
Um, but within that, you know, Iwanted to live.
(08:19):
And I think at a very young age,deteriorated so much, being
sets you on a very differentI think, you know, I've had the
talk to so many different kindsAnd I would say in the kind of
(08:40):
afternoon of people's lives,these usually tend to be the
questions that people startasking.
What is the meaning of my life?
What is the purpose of my life?
You know, what does it all mean?
Um, but the addiction had suchan intense grip on me at such a
young age that I had to findthat will somehow to to overcome
it.
(09:00):
Because the other option was toHow did you manage to find that,
What was.
What was the driving force?
You know, it's a really it's abecause I think as as you fade
(09:21):
for me, that was as my body wasYou feel in that state you feel
I have so much vitality now andmuch I want to achieve.
And I can see the future soIt was like I was, you know, my
(09:43):
spirit was moving in theopposite direction.
I was becoming lifeless.
And as that nears.
Yeah, as that nears it, it'slike something very innate and
deep inside of you, you know,activates.
And the weaker I got, um, andlike, an adrenal crisis or a
(10:11):
clearer it got that I wasn't Ithat my life had to be about
And, um, especially because Ihad this talent that I loved so
much and I was dealing with thisvery deep heartbreak, actually,
because it was kind ofcomparable to, like, a sports
player that trains, you know,their whole college life and
(10:32):
then, um, has a life changinginjury and they're not able to
actually pursue professionalsport.
For me, I was following theguidance, actually, of what I
thought it meant to be a goodperformer.
Like I was trying to hit everybenchmark of what that perfect
young performer was, which washeavily linked to body image and
(10:54):
all kinds of things, um, relatedto that.
So to hit that point wheredoctor's orders was you can no
physically tolling on you.
Like, uh, theta, the type oftheta I was doing was very
physical.
So I wasn't allowed to exercise.
Wow.
I had to, um, deal with thatAnd it's like it, it's, I think
(11:22):
heartbreak to your firstit's how you envision your life.
So I had to sit with all thesedeep questions around, meaning
it's much more personal, isn'tit?
Like, because it's only youperformance like an athlete.
I've seen it, um, in thebasketball space where athletes
that either played college orprofessionally and all of a
sudden there's nothing they haveto stop for injury or for
(11:43):
whatever other reason, andthere's nothing else that they
know.
And it's like life becomesAnd they do have that heartbreak
Yeah.
It's harsh.
I've seen so exactly.
Especially because that industryespecially a young female
lose weight to a certain point.
And it's sort of I had toprocess this level of
abandonment, too, because it waslike I was meant to lose weight
(12:06):
to a certain point, but past acertain point, I became a
liability.
So I was encouraged.
Wow.
It was like a Goldilocks zone.
Yeah.
And until I was abandoned, youliberated me healing from that.
All the bullshit that people getjust vanity and hang ups.
And I just decided to do lifeSo I think I had a different set
(12:30):
You know, there's and I don'tLike it's a completely different
But obviously ADHD as a childDidn't fit in, couldn't learn
properly, like things didn't fitaround me.
So the one thing I learnt muchin the same boat, is turning
(12:51):
problems into superpowers.
Yeah.
To help us enhance the thingsget over that hump.
Did that come into play fortransitioned into, I guess, who
Of course.
Yeah, one hundred percent.
I think you have to like it'slike a there's there's polarity
(13:13):
Right.
Always.
And it kind of sounds cliche tosay, like you can only
experience the highest joy ifyou've experienced the deepest
pain.
Yes.
You know, but but that's trueit's this corridor that gets
And that depth always is aVery much.
And I think in pain, the mindgoing to get through that pain.
(13:37):
You know, for humans who acceptthat pain was meaningless or in
vain, I believe is one of themost psychologically challenging
things.
So we have to find a point ofAnd for me to find a voice,
going to be able to explain myperson could understand.
(14:02):
So how was I going to build myAnd for me, that that actually
Um, but beyond kind ofentrepreneurship, it was about
sharing my story and invitingother people to share their
story, which for the first I'dsay, you know, several years at
(14:22):
least of my entrepreneurialjourney, my focus was really
about that.
Like, I was actually not I neverput it that way.
I actually started in theis the opposite of big tech.
There's cope out there, folksI mean, you had some incredible
I mean, you were top one hundredthe age of twenty one.
(14:43):
Um, you had a strong voice andBut you've one of your first ten
not for profit was the rogue,Rouge, Rogue and Rouge
Foundation, which you founded atthe age of eighteen, which is
incredible.
Tell me about tell me about thatYeah.
So that that was, you know,tried to go to uni for.
Just thought the, um, I actuallydid get my degree, but I have no
(15:05):
idea how I got my degree, but Idid, um, you know, I lasted
about two trimesters before Iwas like, you know, after that
experience as well, I would sitin the back row of my lectures
and, you know, Facebook was justbecoming a thing that was like
twenty ten.
Everyone would just be sittingand I was going to a private
(15:26):
four or five thousand dollars.
No one was listening to theAnd I just thought to myself,
like, there's got to be more tothis.
Yeah, like, this cannot be, thisAnd um, I was I was thinking
about how I wanted to transformthat experience into something
meaningful.
Um, yeah.
And I eventually landed onwith a very different kind of
(15:51):
I saw happening in the mentaljust timing wise, for people's
before mental health became thisLike when when I say mainstream
kind of, are you a are you a Ksports players, royal family
members?
They all started to talk aboutIt became a cause that was on
(16:13):
This was right before that, andI had this very strong view that
the cause of mental healthdisorders, um, not exclusively,
but was largely a result ofsocial and environmental
causations.
And this at the time wasactually a really controversial
opinion because the leadingvoices were mostly, um, you
(16:36):
know, well-known psychiatrists,psychologists that really
believed this.
This really is a biologicalIt's more to do with your brain
Um, but I had my own experienceenvironment and changes to the
improve mental health.
(16:58):
You know, it sounds so obviousIt kind of does because, like,
through like, a war scenario.
You see how they get massivelySo had it not been for that
factor, their mental healthBut I guess they saw that as
But it's fascinating that weYeah.
And it was it was actuallyexperience of all kinds of
(17:25):
seen as, um, unequipped tomental health should be treated.
And when I eventually did becomecommissioner, the actual press
person with lived experienceMental Health Commission.
So it was it was a big deal thatwas actually a lived experience,
(17:51):
you would be disqualified toseen to be mentally ill, you
So you had people that, youan empathy, a true empathy for a
empathy, actually, that we'recalling all of the shots.
And I started to grow thisgrassroots movement around that,
(18:14):
actually transforming the skillsthat I learned in theatre, which
was around like the basics ofperformance, which is really
about showing yourselfauthentically.
Like I transformed that intoAnd I, um, in the early days of
my nonprofit, I would travel tocommunities and invite people to
share their stories, um, and seta set of a context that would
(18:38):
make that this really kind ofcathartic and healing experience
for people like, you know, trynot to judge each other, the
open minded very much, you know,um, and I would see the
transformation and people wouldtell me how transformative those
experiences were.
But this was so countercultureto what mental health said was
(18:58):
appropriate.
Mhm.
Um, and it was it was amazing toactually traveling the whole
Australia for about two and aUm, and in that time I visited
Wow.
Yeah.
And it became a tour.
The tour was called championsbasically by, like, me wanting
(19:25):
And then, um, it ended upwhich is now the National
called they merged with anotherSo art Australian retirement
Yeah, yeah.
That's right.
That's so good though.
I know and so like, you know itBut as an eighteen year old I
was like, oh my God, I'm amillionaire.
(19:47):
Yeah.
It's like I'm a sky high.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
When was that?
Like, uh what years?
Twenty thirteen.
Okay.
Well, the end of twenty twelve,um, and it became this
incredible tour.
So when we first, I then hadpeople and our two dogs, which
(20:08):
what type of dogs do actors.
Uh, so one was like a so my dogChihuahua, and the other one was
don't even know the breed.
Like a small white dog.
I can't remember the breed superYeah.
(20:29):
Not a not a Pomeranian.
Yeah.
I'm that's, you know, too manyyears ago, little white fluffy
one.
And like here.
Yep.
Yeah.
So small dogs that wereUm, and initially we'd have,
like, maybe five people turn upto these community workshops and
then just watching the power ofgrassroots movement building
actually were with writing tolocal journalists.
(20:52):
Obviously, we're going tocommunities where there's no
news happening in thesecommunities, right?
So you are the news like you arethe biggest thing that's
happened to the Jewishcommunity, just like outside
where there was the line justbefore getting in here, guys,
there's a miss Dior cafe,something opening up next door,
red carpet out there, and it'slike it seemed like it was for
this podcast.
It was not.
But you had that.
It was for the podcast.
(21:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So in Sydney, it takes a DiorIt takes, you know, someone from
So it is a but initially it wasYou know, people didn't want to
I also experienced hate, youthere's tenacity involved, you
keep showing up and at a certainAnd it was actually we were
(21:40):
and schools were asking us to.
And then, you know, Sun Tzu wasSo we were kind of we had this
engine where I really got toexperience growing this
grassroots movement from nothingto what became this national
tour.
And I heard in that time tens ofdifferent walks of life.
(22:02):
Um, you know, we all grow up inthe normal way to live.
And I think that that's it'smessage and why I'm here to help
no one way to live.
This is something that theatertaught me so much because as a
as an actor, you have to breakpast, break past the barriers
(22:24):
you create in your identity inorder to be versatile as a
performer.
Because if you can never imagineor a whatever.
You know, a bad guy or whateverYou can't play that role.
So you have to stretch what youidentity to be.
(22:45):
And those two and a half yearson the road just took that to a
whole other level of livedexperience, where I was talking
to teenagers in ruralcommunities that had never left
their community of a thousandpeople all the way to, you know,
boardrooms in, in, in citieswith people that have traveled
the world.
But the thing that touched methe most about that was, yes,
(23:07):
everyone's story had differentwrapping paper, different levels
of privilege, different lifeexperiences.
But as they would really get toof what they they were truly
Every person just wants to loveIt's so true.
(23:28):
And that was it for me.
When I saw that truth, I wasexpose that in, um, in a way
dependent on one individual,frontline mental health workers
the fly in, fly out doctors thatcommunities once every two weeks
(23:50):
everyone that needs help.
Um, suicide rates at that timewere on the rise, and I just
kind of went fullyanti-establishment to the mental
health sector.
And I was like, we need aAnd that was a very unique idea.
At that time, I had a lot ofI also had a lot of hate, as you
(24:11):
would, you know, you wouldexpect.
Yeah.
Um, and yeah, that that led meto serve as a commissioner,
because actually the ideas thatwe were implementing in those
communities worked.
You know, they worked in a veryGo figure.
It was basic communication andIt's like the one thing the
(24:31):
You know, show some love andYeah.
And make people feel like It's.
And it's something like a lot ofThey might not be rich in other
means, but we we do all havethat capacity and currency to
give as much as we can in termsof kindness.
Well, yeah.
All we need to develop thatwhat I saw.
It's like the art offacilitation is you're creating
(24:55):
a container where people canjust kind of put whatever
they're going through at thedoor for a minute and listen,
and then also have theopportunity to share their
story.
And in that you have kind of twosudden people do have a
They have a willingness to showThey have a willingness to a
(25:20):
in a different way.
But transferring that to thelives, to me, became the next
really good at creating spaces,eventually run retreats all over
And these were deeplytransformational experiences,
very unconventional, but deeplytransformational.
(25:42):
We'd have people leavingretreats like, you know, leaving
twenty year relationships,quitting jobs.
And then also a part of me wasdo about integration?
Because you expose people andYou know that you don't have to
You can make a different choice.
And I think entrepreneurs arehave to recreate yourself
(26:06):
that next level.
Definitely, the adaptation iseverything that you're doing.
Exactly.
Adaptation, flexibility, theYeah, I think is going to, um,
be the thing that separatesamazing entrepreneurs from those
that that can't go that extramile.
And most amazing entrepreneursYou have to be relatively
(26:30):
You have to have a delusionalYou have to be a psychopath.
Yeah, but I, I like to sort ofangle, which is, yes, I agree in
understand how reality actuallyare we are creating reality
(26:53):
with our frequency in allSo it's it's less about delusion
time to curate your inner world.
And I think going throughto rebuild my inner world from
Every thought, every behavior,self-destructive, which became
(27:15):
I had to turn that intosomething that actually helped
my flourishing, and I had to dothat consciously.
But a lot of people go throughchallenge what they believe.
They never challenge the waythat they see the world, what
they think, and that that wasthe gift.
And I think that's the gift inall adversity is if you want
your life to start moving in adifferent direction, you've got
to change how going through theexperience leading up to where
(27:38):
you are.
In truth, what were some of theyou know, twenty one being in
oh man, I mean, yeah, as anknow, intellectually, I had the
(27:59):
those kinds of roles.
Young.
But a twenty one year old is aand I think that as a society,
appreciate or understand.
It's the same with, say, youthat that rise very young.
Like, you know, they haveThe talent is undeniable.
(28:19):
Yeah.
Um, or they have theintelligence is undeniable.
But at the end of the day, likeAnd there were so many hard
acted out like I had theI, you know, I was so hard
working, um, really all throughmy teenage years and then
(28:41):
probably until twenty two,twenty three and then my life
kind of had this, like, starkcontrast for a minute where I
had high levels ofresponsibility.
But I would party really hard.
And I look back and I'm like,trying to cope.
I was trying to cope with theI was trying to, uh, I didn't
(29:06):
weekend and tell my twenty yearwriting recommendations for a
You know, I just I had no way ofThere's no easing into it.
By the sounds of it, though, itwas impossible, you know, and
then I also I mean, you guyswanted to get personal, but, you
know, I, I also developedrelationships with much older
(29:27):
people.
And I think that that's what Ineeded actually, because they
had more capability ofunderstanding me.
But then in some ways, I kind ofmissed out on what a normal I
feel like.
I lost my teenage years to anearly to mid twenties to
responsibility and then kind ofseven until thirty whilst I was
(29:54):
and doing all the things that aI had to rediscover myself.
Wow.
And that was like a, um, thatsoul for me.
I see a title in there, like howbuilding my startup helped me
find myself or something likethat.
I was gonna say, did in truthWas totally and like, as a
(30:15):
I always see life as art and andYou know, we're always
subconsciously, I think buildingthe thing that we most crave and
we most need, like anyone thathas drive.
People don't just have drive.
Drive comes from somewhere.
Ambition comes from somewhere.
If you were fully enlightenedand fully integrated, you
(30:37):
probably wouldn't have muchdrive.
You're just.
It's just an isthmus, right?
So anyone that has intensetrying to figure something out
There's an urge or somethingI've seen it come from actually,
come from a place of good.
(30:58):
Yeah, unfortunately, yeah.
I actually was at this investedAnd um, one of the questions
So the format was like a bunchof investors and then they
invited me in a couple of teammembers to get to know one
truth.
And one of the um investorsasked the table, what do you
think?
Uh, the common denominator is infounders that go on to build
(31:21):
unicorns?
And I'll never forget it.
One of the investors saidOh, great.
But I was like, you know what?
This is not advice.
If you traumatize your children.
Oh, goodness.
But I think, you know, a lot ofYou have different kinds of
Like, you have opportunisticemotionally connected to what
(31:43):
And it's more just like you seeI don't know, like the people
that supplied Covid masks intwenty twenty.
Mhm.
Probably wasn't coming from adeep existential or toilet
paper.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't want to judge because Istory, but I, you know, I would,
really go on to do somethingMhm.
(32:06):
There was obviously there wasinflicted by the system.
Yeah.
Otherwise what's the motivationchange that narrative, whether
you've seen from someone else,and you feel.
Yeah, definitely.
I think it comes back to whatknow, I wonder if, um, Australia
(32:28):
things are really good hereas many entrepreneurs sort of
we got there.
The pain is, is not as muchThere's one hundred like we've
got a good economic system,we've got a good financial
system.
Yeah, yeah, that that isThat's if you go to a city like
London, you know, like you'reyou're the best cheese.
(32:53):
And actually the average it wastold me this when I first moved
God, what have I done?
She said.
The average amount of time thatexpats or foreigners, even
people that moved to Californiafrom interstate America, the the
average amount of time thatpeople lost in LA and San
Francisco is less than threemonths.
Wow.
So it it because it's you knowSo if you you have to commit and
(33:21):
I mean, any like, expert who'snationality that's gone to a,
Like you go to the Department ofyou you're gonna like I. I
level of rage in me.
Like.
Like they make you wait for,I was gonna say, that's when you
(33:42):
realize you're part of thesystem.
That's like.
Yeah, like it just everything isTrying to figure out the
Like there's no place you can goAmerica, that's like, okay,
survive in in America.
You know, it's it's verydifferent, I think, to being an
expat.
I don't know, in like Southeastthe lifestyle is, is easy.
(34:08):
You know, America is not an easyAnd so to to make it there and
getting the visa process, youSecurity number, figuring out
You've got to want it.
So that's from movements toTech entrepreneur.
(34:29):
How has this journey brought youI guess in terms of building
out, in truth, how are youseeing yourself now and how is
in truth, I guess, become yourbaby?
Yeah.
So what I came to through thethose experiences like
(34:50):
the opposite of grassroots,or, you know, informing policy
politician, but you're involvedUm, I realized that both those
solution, which seems kind ofsolve because it was a paradox.
(35:11):
How do you create somethinghyper personal, which is what
frontline mental health workersor people like myself who were
trying to do grassrootsmovements.
Um, so very, very personal andhuman with the scale that came
from, say, the distribution offederal budget.
How do you have both of thoseAnd I didn't jump straight to
(35:33):
tech, actually, when I leftpolitics or like I like to say,
retired from politics at twentyfive, um.
Went on a soul searching tripYeah.
Did a vow of silence in thereally went deep?
I actually wrote a book and thatwas kind of like my the
beginning of my therapeuticjourney.
(35:55):
And the book started to growthis, um, this following of
people that really loved andbelieved in what the book was
about.
And the book is called Love OutIt was a philosophy.
Yes.
Um. And Love Out Loud exploresSo the philosophy to sort of
that we are love.
was seeking love.
(36:16):
You know, that's what isboth good and bad.
Um, and loving out loud is theability to strip the limitations
and the resistances that preventus from just expressing that and
living that, and being that inwhatever form that wants to
take.
And people loved it.
You know, people have love outSo that was like a crazy thing
(36:38):
And that, that started, um, likeI was traveling the world and
that became my life for a goodUm, and I was experiencing scale
content, you know, that wasThat was that was scaling on a
(36:58):
global level, not just anational level.
But again, I just I couldn't letgo of how much I, I knew that
wasn't going to be the thingthat was going to change the
world in a thousand years fromnow.
But I wasn't a technologist,So it took me some time to to
first principles thinking.
(37:19):
And I think the space that thecreated, that was the first time
stayed still for you.
I always traveled, and this isdark night of the soul.
Like I'd never been around theI really had to face myself.
I was so used to I kind of goteveryone and everything in my
(37:46):
constantly traveled, sohappy to see me.
Then I got to leave.
Then it was, you know, myoften, so they were always happy
Relationships kind of the sameSo all these highs, highs,
was riding high basically fromthrough to twenty seven.
It was there was a lot of highs.
(38:08):
And obviously, you know, thereBut I was just there was always
everything stayed still.
And I realized that I wascreate a solution that wasn't.
And so I came back to firstwhat is really at the core of of
(38:29):
know, to date.
And it was to help people buildAnd then I this was basically my
Emotion is arguably the mostdefining part of the human
experience.
It drives more than eightyAnd so it literally is the thing
And that's on an unconsciousSo even if you're listening to
(38:51):
rational, you're not.
You're not.
Humans are not rational.
We're emotional.
We make emotional decisions thatAnd that's autonomic.
Emotions are happening every twoYou know, it's before the brain
It's often predisposed based onRight.
So you're.
Yeah.
Things you feel the decisionsimpacts of things that have
(39:14):
person you met, whether it's thethat type of stuff.
They trigger those constantchange of emotions and how you
bring in everything, how youinterpret stimulus, how your how
your physiology interprets itexactly.
And you don't even knowsometimes, like maybe other
people around you, if theyreally know you well, they're
like, hey, I think you're a bithungry or something like that,
you know?
Yeah, because you're getting alittle bit angry, but you don't
(39:34):
know.
You don't realize that you'reyou're strong headed too, which
people like us.
Like I'll be.
Yeah.
Working for like, you know,twenty hours straight thinking
I'm fine.
Yeah.
Because you're just strongBut your body has, like, a very
So true the measurement side ofI think getting to that like
interesting because that's a bigLike, well that's it.
(39:58):
And that's what I came to inthat thought process because I
was like, okay, this is the mostdefining part of the human
experience.
Who's measuring it?
How how have we think about thestandardized, we've standardized
We've standardized languageorganize complex thoughts.
(40:19):
It's allowed us to have debate,Without language, there'd be no
grunting at each other.
That was the original plan forYeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Got it.
There's a lot of followers.
Yeah, yeah, people thousands ofYeah, yeah.
Um, you know, so that level of,reach new intellectual heights.
(40:42):
Yeah.
The birth of, um, the Latinlanguage, etc.. And then we did
the same for time, GreenwichMean Time.
We standardized time.
And that allowed us to organizeIt allowed us to meet at a place
life to have more complexzones, etc.. Um, but no one had
(41:04):
The thing that was the mostdefining part of the human
experience.
And I got really curious aboutYou know, as I as my mind
Well, what if we could doWhat if we could build a
So I asked a lot of intelligentpeople why they thought this had
never been done, and everyone'sanswer was, well, it's just too
(41:24):
subjective.
It's too elusive.
How do you how do you quantifysomething that just kind of is
there?
But, you know, to me it wasn't aperson I knew from my work had
want to express themselves.
But so often not being able toemotional state was the reason
(41:51):
Um, and so that was kind of theAnd then the next was, well, how
Okay.
Well, emotion is autonomic.
It's happening in the nervousUm, so it is measurable actually
like we have this subjective Islayer, which is yes, it's
subjective.
Like when I ask you guys, howAnd you say, I feel happy.
(42:15):
Sure.
That's your interpretation.
Unless you're a Australian, it'slike, yeah, I'm alright, I'm
fine.
Fine, fine is not an emotion.
I like to remind people.
Your girlfriend is saying I'mIt's like she might not be fine.
Yeah, she's definitely fine.
Yeah, I can tell you that rightYeah.
So, um, that's what by the timeyou've said that, you've
(42:36):
actually experienced tens ofemotions that have triggered,
you know, like, um, likeneurons.
Neurons in the brain, like inUm, and I also recognize because
everything, every, um, kind ofoccupation that has been built
to try to help people with theiremotion only deals with the
(42:59):
subjective.
Like you go to a psychologist,How are you feeling?
Well, I'm I'm here because Idon't know how to express how
I'm feeling.
So this is really unhelpfulI mean, I'm not sort of shitting
on therapy as it's placed,right?
But but, uh, I think in truth,we'll hopefully pioneer such a
new way of looking at this andunderstanding it that we'll look
(43:22):
back at the way we used to tryto get there and recognize that
we were kind of, you know, usinga, um, uh, well, like reading
tea leaves.
It's it it feels like.
Exactly, exactly.
Great analogy.
Because because what you've gothere and in many industries,
like I've come from a backgroundof like, um, financial market
research and it's aboutqualitative as well as
(43:45):
quantitative.
So the qualitative have alwaysLike what does this piece of
But the quantitative thatimportant in that space.
And it feels like it wasn'tAnd now you're bringing that
Exactly.
Well, if you go back to theorigin of psychology, like go
all the way back to, um, CarlJung, like these are amazing
(44:07):
minds.
Psychology was the only quoteto be considered a hard science
is the only science, right?
I know that, um, and this is,within the, the, um, the
psychologists aren't real, youyou know, the data you, you're
(44:33):
So that's okay.
Look, I have total respect forI'm just trying to make it
Yeah, yeah.
That's it, that's it.
You know, and if you go to a GPwith my mental health, they'll
It's a Likert scale.
And they'll say, have you feltOn a scale of one to seven in
Like it's so okay.
Yeah.
It's like, am I gonna answerYeah.
(44:55):
Like I guess how many so, like,Prepare yourself for, for for.
Yeah I don't know.
Yeah.
Like.
Yes.
But also like, how do I quantifyLike, have you felt tired in the
Sure.
Like every human has, you know.
Um, so it's just bad data, likeAnd.
Yeah, like, in truth, isbringing up hard, objective,
(45:19):
reliable, continuous data, whichis the other thing, like, you
know, this sort of what the techactually is for the purpose of
your listeners.
It's an emotion biotechnologywearables like the Garmin I'm
model, which has been taught tostate and then can translate
(45:43):
This is taking a reading everySo all of a sudden we have
actually mapping emotion.
And when you think about thejust psychology by the way, but
most organizations, if you askdata right now?
Because it is very interestingThe sentiment of your team, you
(46:08):
feeling about their projects andin real time.
Yeah.
Well, the way that they'recurrently capturing it is an
evaluation once a year or twicea year, and it's a
self-assessment and it'ssubjective report.
So maybe you have you know, asas a company leader, you have
two data points annually onChris.
What if we could replace thatwith a data point every two
(46:28):
hundred milliseconds?
So the fidelity difference inLike that to me, is the real
goal is to have a data setthis data is considered equally
data points that we leverage andglobal decision making.
(46:54):
Because at the moment, globalYou've had projects like, um,
you know, the Global HappinessIndex.
You know, you've had peopleattempt it, but it's so hard to
implement.
It's still so subjective.
But this this gives us anability to actually build hard
data.
(47:14):
One of the points touched on is,in leadership and business.
Seeing how the team are trackingor even your yourself within the
business.
Um, not touching necessarily onthe security or the data that
your personal information, butthe, I guess the privacy around
your emotions in workenvironments.
How do you see that with yourSo the thing that comes to mind
(47:37):
is, I know you had a meetingwith your boss, didn't turn out,
didn't turn out as good as youthought.
And you walk out and you'reyour gut and watch picks up.
You're a bit of a heart rateincrease and you're a bit of
sweaty.
And so you're clearlyUm, and that data then goes back
called a manager, because it'sthe ones that get frustrated,
(47:57):
Yeah.
Inverted commas.
How do you perceive that inthe most common question we get,
So obviously it's a reallyimportant question because, you
know, if, if, um, anyone'slooked at any of Intuit's
content, like we are really gungho when it comes to data
sovereignty as a, as a topic ina subject.
(48:19):
Um, and I'm so, I'm soeven actively, um, lobbying in
biotechnology is, are regulatedUm, data is only used in the
interest of public healthbecause that is a that is a dark
rabbit hole.
We'll get to that in a minute.
Oh, we didn't even start.
But we were talking about theSo imagine like a machine having
(48:42):
that information, knowing howyou're going to react before you
do it.
Not good.
I thought we were calling themNo, but now knows your Yeah.
And all of your emotional.
Very scary.
So, um.
So the first thing we, um, as ayou're an organization that's
(49:05):
the employee, are the only oneWhat the employer gets is the
So there's no individuated data.
Very smart.
They they see the aggregateUm, and you even have to be at a
certain team size in order to dothat.
So it's, you know, impossible toBasically a small startup with
(49:26):
I know it wasn't me that saidBut, you know, that's that's
really interesting that you'redoing it that way because a the
company is still getting greatinsights at that aggregate
level.
Yeah.
Like yeah like Jenny from HRshouldn't really care about your
what you were feeling on Tuesdayat ten a m. You know that's not
the data that's going to helpthem make constructive
(49:48):
organizational decisions.
On the other hand, what's reallyindividual, as part of the
get that individual report.
So you get that, you get thatto understand yourself.
And we hope that that changesthen kind of twofold that the
organization can make moreconstructive decisions.
(50:10):
But the individuals are actuallyempowered with that
self-awareness and thatself-growth and seeing
themselves compared to what thenorm is.
And maybe it's like, wow, I'mdifferent versus my peers.
Am I in the right company?
Yeah, totally.
That, you know, you subjectivelyYeah, fine.
But I think, you know, it goesthis podcast, it was all about
(50:35):
of stuff, and there was no voicestandardize, measure, quantify
insights that are coming outbecause there is this what
hopefully, you know, it spreadspodcast, but from many.
It gives language to where therewasn't a language before and a
(50:57):
common kind of standard of doingit.
So it's amazing that standardskind of stuff.
I love that you've brought thatinto the conversation, because
this is why we call what we'rebuilding in Elm an emotion
language model.
Um, obviously, you know, a playof how nuanced it is.
(51:20):
Whenever I don't believe we'refully comprehensive
but what in truth can do is goBecause it's data.
Yeah.
So I believe that we canactually educate and empower our
users to such a degree that theybecome fluent in understanding
that data.
So say you're in a relationshipand you're going through
(51:41):
conflict.
Imagine being able to show eachother that data and have the
opportunity for immediateempathy.
Wow.
Past all the miscommunicationI know exactly how this conflict
I can read that data, actuallyThat's amazing.
(52:01):
Like, it's coming from mybackground as a data
visualization person.
Like I'm loving all of that kindBut just from having those
visualized is what gets you tounderstanding far quicker than
it's so hard.
Like, you know, I, for example,am quite a like a logical I have
(52:23):
strong logic.
None of us are fully logical, asBut if something if someone's
doesn't make sense, I reallyget past it.
Right.
So that that can mean that ifI'm not self-aware, I'm losing
empathy quite quickly becauseI'm getting hung up on what
they're saying.
Doesn't make any sense.
(52:43):
And as someone that really likeempathetic person to the best of
my empathy starts to waneBut if I had something that
truly made sense to me and Icould understand it, then I just
feel like for people likemyself, my empathy would just be
infinite.
(53:04):
And I think that would kind ofbe that's my hope, is that in
truth, can create this abilityfor us to just understand each
other at the deepest level andjust evolve beyond these
ridiculous conversations aroundvulnerability, being weak,
emotions being stupid to talkabout.
(53:24):
And, you know, there's justthere's such a high level way of
approaching this whole landscapein in my opinion, that's, um,
that actually comes down totrue, um, self-awareness at
scale and to recognize thatemotions are no different to
breathing.
Like, we cannot help it.
(53:45):
Um, and by hiding it anddoing through that repression is
um, the opposite.
You know, whatever's repressedin us individually or as a
society, we're going toexperience the other side of
that pendulum.
And that's exactly what we seeLike, you try to repress
sexuality and then you have ayou have a society that's
(54:07):
oversexualized, you know, andit's just trying to find its
balance.
But what if we could have theunderstanding and expose that so
that we were actually able to beconscious and balanced in our
decision making?
I think now, because of wheretechnology is tracking, that's
never been more important,because the risks that I see
especially, you know, living inSan Francisco, you see people
(54:30):
that don't have that emotional,spiritual maturity who are
inheriting ridiculous levels ofpower, like ridiculous, like
unprecedented levels of powerwhere single individuals have,
um, the ability to dictate whatlife looks like for billions of
people.
Just look at any of the currentYeah.
(54:53):
Everything.
That's insane.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we need this.
And and it's we need thosepeople to get interested in
this.
But we also need to help thedynamics and power imbalances
Like if we have individuals withthat much power, it's because we
(55:13):
have millions or billions ofpeople that are giving their
power away to singleindividuals.
And that's like it is goingThat track of thinking helps you
say broken our systems are,built to perfectly create the
(55:34):
But just how in need we are ofThat's a good way to put it.
What's next for in truth, whereyou're kind of in beta.
You know what's next.
So for us, um, our biggest focusis working with, what we're
classifying as high stakesindustries, high stakes, high
stress.
(55:54):
So that could be anything from,say, first responders to
emergency workers, even likelawyers, surgeons, um, where
they're dealing with very highlevels of, um, stress, probably,
you know, big emotional highsand lows and where their
decision making has very highconsequence.
(56:16):
That, to us is the kind offor early adoption.
Because when we show interest asa solution to these industries,
um, they correlate it withsafety.
So it's a it's a great, um,It's also very dynamic kind of
Um, meanwhile, we're goingSo I hope sooner rather than
(56:41):
FDA and TGA says you get thesoftware as a medical device
classification.
Brilliant.
Um, and through that process,we're where validating clinical
claims.
So diagnostic claims for examplelike as an as an example of that
in truth can predict PTSD or intruth can can support the
diagnosis of anxiety ordepression.
(57:03):
Um, once we have that tick, Ias a biomarker, no different to
to heart rate to actually makeintegrated into healthcare.
Um, when you see your GP, aphysician, that they would
consider that biomarker in thesame vein as every other
biomarker.
(57:23):
Yeah.
Building some health toolsourselves and working with some
pretty incredible people thatum, and the biggest thing that
we always hear is thatempathetic side of specialist
bedside manner and imagine themalready knowing how you're
feeling and being able to relateto you in that situation a lot
more with with a tool like thisor understand that like they,
you know, usually they see you,you're in this kind of state and
(57:46):
then they see heightened markersor whatever.
And then it's like, okay, thatBut I was even thinking with
immigrant parents or othera lack of understanding of your
Yeah.
Because maybe you will raisea different culture mismatch and
And then seeing your child andIt's not just them acting out
(58:11):
They are doing it anymore.
Yeah.
Like you're understandingbecause like you said, it's a
biomarker now.
Just like blood pressure.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Like you wouldn't you wouldn'tblood pressure of two hundred
You'd be worried about them.
Exactly.
You want a camel?
Yeah.
You don't like camel.
And it's, um.
Empathy is an interesting thingway that we experience it.
Right?
But I think with a commonmuch closer to that.
(58:34):
I've got some quick fireThis has been an incredible,
Thank you so much.
Um, but some quick questions forWhat's a non-negotiable for you
That's an interesting question.
Um, compromising my values?
Yeah.
(58:54):
Would be top of the list.
And there's different ways thatI'd say that the biggest one is,
that see the same future we do.
Work life balance.
What's the most important thingThat whole concept is like Like.
Especially if it's just, I don'tpeople that try to achieve that,
(59:19):
when you're solving somethingthere's no that is the balance.
That is it.
Yeah.
It's not like workplaces andcorporates going you have work
life balance when you take awaylife.
Exactly.
I love it.
There's no clocking off at five.
Yeah.
You're obviously we're here.
We talk about AI quite a lot.
What are the most interestingspace and potentially things
(59:41):
with the work that you do?
You know, emotion AI was not aI started in truth.
And now I don't know if it'sjust my echo chamber, but it
seems to be a really growingconversation.
Um, so that's, you know, an areavery closely and then broadly,
what decisions biotech companiesdeals they're making to.
(01:00:07):
That's something that I keepeye on because it's my passion.
Um, but yeah, like from the, um,uh, the side of building in AI
systems that, that improveefficiency.
Like, I'm all for that.
I encourage my team to do it asstay human and empathetic would
(01:00:31):
Final question.
Uh, if you had to start overtomorrow, what would be the one
thing that you would dodifferently?
Uh, that's so hard.
One thing, every country wouldYeah, I mean, the two things,
Okay, I want to find I want toactually be, like, the most
Um, don't.
When you raise your first bigchunk of capital, do not go and
(01:00:54):
hire the most expensiveexecutives.
There's the worst fucking thingThe people that just, like, want
their sleeves, are willing torate and that bring energy and
and be hands on.
I wish I had done that.
I love the reason I love that somuch is one of the biggest
(01:01:14):
things that people miss out onwhen forming businesses is
culture.
And if you just go out and findthat big executive high just
because of the number and theexperience, you're missing out
on building that cultural fromthe start.
Whereas if you find the rightperson from the start, they
blend well.
You you're going from a positivegrowth and they'll learn with
you and also the disposition,like I found, hiring those kinds
(01:01:35):
of people.
They sat back and they wanted aYeah.
And it's the opposite of startupYou need people that are dynamic
Yeah.
And the irony is, is that, um,as this scales and stuff, your
tool could actually be used tohelp other startups find those
right people, which is thereally.
Which is awesome.
Right.
But please don't like, you know,use it to, I don't know, fire
(01:01:56):
people and things becausethere's gonna be a PR nightmare
for us.
But yeah, looking at thecollective consciousness and
understanding coherence as a, asa, as a group, that to me is
like one of the most excitinguse cases.
Amazing.
Yeah.
Nicole, we can't thank youI've loved it.
You guys joining us.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Cheers.
Amazing stuff.
(01:02:16):
Very fun conversation.
That was beautiful.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, yeah.
So I heard somewhere that youWhen AI becomes like, when AI
(01:02:38):
Like, I remember having anlike, it was all about like, oh,
Blah blah blah.
We should look at the idea andyou know, the thing that kicked
Didn't expect like hundreds ofI'm like, I just want it to be a
But one guy was like, well, ifLike, okay, well, let's not talk
Like, you know, it's theslippery slope idea on the
(01:02:58):
podcast.
Yeah.
Because seriously, actually,If our tech starts to merge
also powered by AI, I thinkIs it so it's like a robot that
emotions and can manipulate you.
Yeah.
Like that's that's.
And then as a sex robot likethis is just a and then you have
(01:03:20):
all these incels in the worldthat just, you know, it's a dark
hole that that's what createsthe guy who made the nukes is
like, I become death destroyerworld.
Yeah, yeah.
We are.
Yeah.
We're recording.
It's like, you're gonna be
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