Baby Boomers, Generation X, Gen Y, Millennials, Gen Z and now Gen Alpha. Is it right to define whole generations with a letter, and are we all that different?
How can understanding generational differences pave the way for a successful future in the workforce, and how will Generative AI impact different generations?
To answer these questions and more, I spoke with Social Researcher Mark McCrindle, who has spent his career examining each generation and how technology and societal issues affect each type.
In this far-ranging discussion, we also covered:
- Putting labels on generations
- How technology impacts each generation
- Technology adoption across the generations
- Encouraging older generations to become digitally curious
- Generational Impact on Workforce Dynamics
- The Generations and the future of work
- The impact of hybrid working in each generation.
- Hybrid Work, Employee Experience
- Where does wellness fit into the modern workplace?
- The importance of “employee experience”
- Future Employment Culture and Impact
- The need for re-skilling the workforce
- The impact of Generative AI on the workforce
- Enterprise GPT impacts
- Advice for leaders to attract and retain talent
- What is the future of work and how do we get there?
- Three actionable tips to better understand the changing workforce
If you want to understand how technology is likely to affect each generation and what is the future of work, then this episode is for you.
Join us as we discuss the generational impact of technology on society and the workplace with Mark McCrindle, founder and principal of McCrindle Research. Prepare to uncover insights into how generational labels define us, and the crucial role they play in shaping workforce dynamics.
We'll delve into the importance of bridging the gap between young and experienced employees, as well as the future of hybrid work and the significance of employee experience in retaining top talent. Learn how bringing together diverse generations within the workplace creates a level playing field, fosters understanding, and ultimately prepares organizations for the challenges ahead.
Mark shares his wisdom on the importance of fostering organizational culture and investing in training and development to attract, retain, and empower the best talent.
Don't miss this engaging conversation with Mark McCrindle, where we uncover the mysteries of generational impact, technology, and the future of work in a world of Generative AI.
More on Mark
Mark on LinkedIn
McCrindle Research
Thanks for listening to Digitally Curious. Pre-order the book that showcases these episodes at digitallycurious.ai/pre-order
Your Host is Actionable Futurist® Andrew Grill
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Actionable Futurist podcast, a
show all about the near-termfuture, with practical and
actionable advice from a rangeof global experts to help you
stay ahead of the curve.
Every episode answers thequestion what's the future on,
with voices and opinions thatneed to be heard.
(00:23):
Your host is internationalkeynote speaker and Actionable
Futurist, andrew Grill.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
My guest today is Mark MacRindle, founder and
principal of MacRindle Research,a leading research-based
advisory firm based in Australia.
Mark works with the big brands,large organisations and senior
leaders to help them understandthe external environment in
which they operate, gainvisibility on the sentiment and
perceptions of their customersand community and identify the
emerging trends to assist themin future proofing their
(00:50):
products and services.
Welcome, Mark.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thanks, andrew, great to be with you, we're surprised
to talk to another Aussie.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
We've had a few Aussies on the show, but they're
few and far between, so thanksfor staying up late to talk to
us on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Delighted to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Now I've come across your research, just saying off
air that I'm surprised wehaven't met yet.
I'm well aware of what you doand your name comes up a lot on
my LinkedIn feed, but for thoselistening to the podcast and
haven't heard about you, whatdoes a social researcher do?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
We analyse society in a broad sense.
So everything from surveys tofocus groups and in-depth
interviews, to demographics anddata analytics and all of those
insights help us get a pictureof context where we're at, the
trends impact us and thereforewhere we're going.
So that's really the role of asocial researcher, and the
(01:34):
application of that is to helporganisations prepare for the
future.
Do their strategic planningengage with the customer or
better understand and engagewith their team?
member.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So I'm an actionable futurist.
I look at probably the shortterm future because a lot of my
clients are saying how do Iclose the quarter?
And for next year, how far areyour horizons?
that you look at in yourresearch.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
We look at generations, so that can be
decades.
We look at demographic trendsthat you can really stretch out
over 50 years and be pretty sureof it, and in fact that's what
a lot of our clients require.
If you think about a localgovernment as they move to
planning, or a state or federalgovernment as they look to maybe
land release or developingschools or infrastructure that
(02:13):
needs to last generations, andthey need some pretty good
insights now to work out what'sgoing to be needed in 20 years
so they're not caught short onthe infrastructure.
And demographics with anunderstanding of generational
expectations provides a prettygood pathway to get there.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, the generational thing has always
been a hot topic.
I was a member of the RotaryClub of Sydney.
We used to meet at theWentworth Hotel and I was asked
to give a speech one day aboutthe future of Rotary because, as
you're aware, the demographicsof Rotary are probably on the
older side.
I'm not a social researcher,but I went back and looked at
then the Baby Boomers, gen X,gen Y, and with that, probably
20 years ago, we've now got thedifferent generations, you've
got the Alphas, the Beaters, andmaybe we'll go on to those.
(02:51):
I'm fascinated.
How did you get into this field?
It's a very unique field towork in.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
That's right.
It wasn't a career advisor atschool that directed me that way
.
I, after school, went off touniversity to study psychology,
so that was my professionalundergrad.
But after that pathway I reallypreferred more the social
psychology.
You know how not individualsthink, but how groups think, how
societies organise themselvesand how we can interact in
(03:17):
communities, and so that movedme into this field of sociology,
which is really a subset ofthat is, social research and
analytics, and that's what I dotoday.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
We label these generations.
You know I'm Gen X.
I'm not sure if you're X or Y.
We have the Baby Boomers,millennials, alphas and Beaters.
Is it fair to label people thatbroadly, with 25 year label, or
are we going to run out ofnumbers and let it soon?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
We are definitely more than just our generation,
just as we're more than, youknow, just our gender or just
our nationality.
Obviously there's a lot ofvariation within any of those
categories than just to think ofa homogeneous group.
However, the generations are apretty solid first place to
start to understand customersegments or employment segments,
(04:00):
because the generationalsegments are multifactorial.
You know, they are a factor ofour life stage And clearly
people in their 20s aredifferent to people in their 60s
.
They also define the times thatshaped us.
So those of us Gen Xs, like youand me, we were shaped in the
1980s into the 90s.
You know the generations todaycoming of age in the 21st
(04:23):
century very different era Andthe events, the experiences, the
technology that we all livethrough at different life stages
are different.
Even though we all share them,we don't all share them at the
same life stages, particularlyat those formative years.
You know, in the age at whichwe're exposed to a new
technology or transformativeglobal event, that really does
determine how embedded that willbecome in our psyche and our
lifestyle and our behavior.
(04:44):
And so that makes thegenerations different and a
pretty good first place to startto understand our society and
our communities, notwithstandingthe difference within a
generation.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I was reminded on the weekend when I was speaking to
my parents and Adelaide of thefact that we've had different
experiences as we've grown up.
Dad has lived through one worldwar and polio.
Mum reminded me that she's nowseen two coronations, because
she was alive for the first oneand I've seen the second one.
You mentioned technology andI'm a technology futurist.
I'm absolutely fascinated abouthow technology impacts both
business and society In the lastgeneration the adoption of the
(05:17):
internet, mobile technologiesand AI.
how has that impactedgenerations?
I like to look at two differenttribes in every organization
the born digital and the goingdigital.
I think that is a sweepinggeneralization, but I think
their use of technology andtheir comfort levels with
technology is very different.
So maybe you could talk abouthow you've seen technology
layering and impacting all thegenerations.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
It has transformed us all, and technology has always
been around, in whatever era yougo to, but you just mentioned
what I think are the threerevolutions of our era.
Firstly, the internet what atransformation that was
accessing anything anywhere.
And then the digital, as theinternet came to our pockets and
all the social media and thedevice transformation that that
(06:01):
brought around.
But now, with AI, that's thethird of these digital
revolutions, and while each ofthem has been significant to us
and we've adapted to each ofthem as we have gone, the
youngest generation have onlyever known all of them.
It's just the stuff of theirworld And so it's far more
transformative for them than forus.
They're more intuitive to itAnd, as you said, growing up
digital, they are the digitalintegrators.
(06:23):
Generation Alpha is the verylatest of these generations,
born since 2010.
So they were born the same yearthat Instagram launched And
2010 was the year that the iPadwas released, and in the year
2010, that word app was launched, and so they've only ever known
the world of the app and thedevice and social media And, of
course, the connection throughthe digital platform.
(06:46):
So they are far more embeddedin this technological world than
the rest of us, and they willuse it as far more of a tool of
transformation and a lifestyletool than we will as well.
And while we're all stillgetting our heads around
generative AI that can createcontent in human forms, for them
, it's just yet the nextextension of what they've been
(07:08):
using speaking to those smartspeakers interacting in a world
of driverless and automation Andnow it's just entered into
every other software that theyuse.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, we've got to remind ourselves that the Alphas
and the Beaters they've grownup with the technology there.
I was on a panel a few weeksago about intellectual property
in the metaverse and a bunch oflawyers, And we had to actually
stop halfway through the panelAnd we actually said you know
what?
Everything we're talking aboutis not for us.
Old children and their childrenabsolutely get this.
So while we're trying tograpple with how we'd live in
the metaverse, I think these newgeneration are just going to
(07:39):
embrace it.
But, more importantly, theywill find uses for it that they
weren't even designed for.
I think they're very able toadapt to a new type of
technology.
You're seeing that the speed ofadoption is more pronounced
with these new generations.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yeah, definitely, there's far less intimidation of
new technology.
They're not the same barriersto entry for them.
They integrate it seamlesslyinto their lives and they bring
that entrepreneurial, innovativemindset to it.
They look for the applicationsand, being at the cutting edge
of age where they're adoptingnew technology at the stage of
(08:16):
experimentation in life, movingfrom learning into earning,
they're at the perfect cusp ofintegrating into this third
revolution.
I think, therefore, they'll useit very differently to how the
rest of us will.
They're not intimidated by itor pessimistic about it.
They see technology of today,ai, like every other technology
(08:37):
that's gone before.
It'll be used for connectionand human flourishing and
engagement and the removal ofdrudgery, and they'll bring it
to a new level.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I'm glad we're speaking today because the penny
has just dropped.
I've just made the connection.
Most of my clients are mid tosenior level and I try and
encourage them to be digitallycurious.
I want them to experiment withtechnology.
I did a session last week anall day session on Genitive AI
and the pre-work was to get themto sign up and play with chat
GPT.
I'm glad they did, but you justhit the nail on the head The
new generations when they'regoing from learning to earning,
(09:07):
they're not afraid to play withit.
They are naturally digitallycurious.
So while I have to sometimesdrag my clients, begging them to
play with new technology, thisis in their DNA because they're
allowed and they've given them aself-permission to experiment.
I think that's a very differenttype of curiosity.
Are you seeing that the youngerpeople have that inbuilt
digital curiosity and questionfor you how do we infect and I
(09:27):
use that word deliberatelyinfect the older generations to
become digitally curious?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Great point And certainly they are doing that
the younger generation.
Firstly, they're global, sotrends go around the world very
quickly now through social media, but through their friendship
networks, through where they'restudying global.
And obviously they're digitalin terms of the platform.
That's the go to for them.
But that means they're visual.
That's how they consume content.
They look, they click, theyplay.
(09:52):
They consume content in videoform.
They're also social, so theydon't consume content alone,
they create content.
They take someone else'scontent and make it their own
The duets on TikTok as anexample of that And they're
mobile, where they will work andstudy and live and travel far
more of a global and mobilegeneration.
So all of that comes togetherto create this perfect context
(10:16):
for these new technologies andthe speed of learning and uptake
that they have.
But that's not to say that therest of us can't use the
technology.
The great thing about it todayis that it doesn't require
coding.
It's click and go, it's verysimple, it's intuitive, it's
user friendly And that meansthat the very oldest, as we know
, with perhaps elderly parentsand some listeners here
(10:37):
grandparents they're connectingwith them.
They're finding that on thetablet or with the Zoom or
whatever it may be.
They're connecting with theoldest generation on the very
latest technologies Andtherefore technology is being
used to bridge generation gaps,not create them.
To engage across diversity,rather than highlight those
differences and making us lessof a separated world and more of
(11:01):
a globally integrated one.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Well, i have experienced that firsthand
because I've been living awayfrom my parents for a number of
years.
I live in a different country.
I've lived here for 16 yearsand I'm a massive photographer.
So I post on Instagram all day,every day my stories.
In fact.
Later I'm going to walk aroundChelsea and look at all the
flowers in bloom for the flowershow and all the displays.
I'll put them up on Instagram.
And my parents in Adelaideindependently worked out that
I'm posting from Instagram toFacebook stories And, without me
(11:25):
even teaching how to use it,they found Facebook stories.
They now see my posts and dad,even overnight, has replied
about something with epithycomments.
They are seeing London throughmy eyes And when I speak to them
regularly, they know what I'vebeen doing.
They've seen my photographs.
They're able to experience myworld through technology And I
didn't even have to tell themhow to do it.
It was amazing that they sortof found this at their age and
(11:46):
stage.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
It's fantastic, and that's where technology empowers
all of the generations, andwhat it means is that the future
is not just for young people.
We can all work later becausewe're in a knowledge economy.
We can use the technology toremove drudgery or physicality
from a workplace, so we willhave people living longer, sure,
and younger longer, but workinglater in life using technology,
(12:08):
and therefore we're going tohave more of those generations
in the workplace interacting,and I think what that means is
that we don't have to behierarchical in the workplace.
We don't have to be started byage group anymore.
We will have young peoplelearning from the experience of
older ones, as has alwayshappened, but we'll have older
people learning and picking uptips from the younger ones, and
I think that creates a newplatform of interaction in the
(12:30):
workplace more age diversitythan ever, as we work later and
longer, but, at the same time,less of those generation gaps,
which has got to be a greatthing for our teams.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I'm glad you said that, because one of the things
I encourage my clients to do isbring those two tribes together
in something like a hackathonAnd then what happens is the
young people have a voice Theycan show the more experienced
people this is how I usetechnology And the going digital
basically go.
I didn't know that's the wayyoung people use this technology
And it stares them in the facethat here are two tribes in the
same room playing thistechnology.
I've had clients feedback, soI'm so glad we did that, because
(13:02):
we never knew how differentpeople thought And when you
bring them together, there is anunderstanding as a level
playing field.
I think young people areintimidated.
Or marks the CEO, i would neverget to talk to him or her, but
when you're in the same room andthey go wow, i didn't know that
it's a real leveler, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Totally.
It empowers young people, givesthem a seat at the table, gives
them a strength.
And that's why we have nowmentoring that's not just top
down, that's actually reversementoring, where, sure, the
older people pass on tips andexperience to the younger ones
and the younger ones engage andconnect and pass on tips to the
older generations, and that thatbridges those gaps and, i think
, equips all of us.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
So let's look at the future of work and where
generations are involved there.
According to Deloitte, by 2025,millennials and Gen Z will make
up 75% of the global workforce,and we keep hearing the
workforce is changing, so wherewill these next gens fit in?
Speaker 3 (13:50):
They continue to roll on through And so, as you said,
we've moved through X and Y andnow Generation Z entering the
workforce, born since 1995.
So they're a key part of thingsnow, but from 1995 to 2009,
that's when the Gen Z's ended,and from 2010, generation Alpha,
having got to the end of theLatin alphabet, we've moved to
(14:11):
the Greek one and the Alphas andthe B is moving through, and so
they will be about 8% of theworkforce by the end of this
decade.
These Gen Alphas, they've onlyjust hit the teenage years, but
they're fast coming as well, andI think what this generational
labeling and the generationalinsights helps us all understand
is that actually, times keepmoving forward and new cohorts
(14:31):
keep coming through, and it'snot just the world of us Gen X
or any more.
In fact, there are more peopleat work now in your team or in
mine in the average workforce,born since 1980 than all of us
born before 1980.
We sometimes think aboutmillennials or Gen Z as the
emerging generation, but they'rethe dominant generation,
they're by far the majority, andthat just helps keep us all, i
(14:54):
think, a little bit perhapscircumspect in our role.
Yes, we might bring somefinancial leverage, some
experience leverage, some maybeauthority leverage, but they
bring the demographic power and,i think, the technology input
as well, and that then justmeans we keep the door open to
the next and we keep looking notjust to how we were but where
it's going, not just what we'vealways done, but open to those
(15:18):
trends and changes by looking atthe ever next generation coming
through.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So the last three years or so have been quite
impactful.
We learned that we could workfrom home.
We learned the technology wassustainable.
I know in Australia, i know inthe UK and in the US the
companies that I deal with arestill battling with this
pendulum of do we want everyoneto return to work?
do we allow people to work fromhome some days of the week?
Where are the generations beingimpacted by these decisions?
(15:43):
Because I think one of thegroups that missed out during
the pandemic were the youngpeople, the interns, that
weren't able to observe howpeople got work done, being in a
meeting room and being able tostand up and talk to someone.
Where are you seeing thependulum shifting and where do
the generations fit in that, andare some more keen to be in the
office or have the newfoundfreedom of working from home and
that's the way going forward?
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Well, that's exactly right, andrew.
It is impacting the youngergenerations more than the older
ones.
The future of work will behybrid.
We've run consistent studieshere and around the world on
this and the majority ofemployees are saying that they
actually want a mix.
They want the flexibility ofwork from home, so we will have,
to some extent, a scatteredworkforce, but they also need
(16:26):
that human driver of connection,belonging, engagement.
And if we look at workplaceneeds at the moment and into the
future, what do we need more?
We need innovation, we needadaptation, we need alignment
and focus and connection andengagement, and that happens
best when we gather, not justwhen we're scattered.
So that means the future willbe a mix of both.
(16:46):
Yes, we'll have some daysworking from home, working
remotely, but we will need sometime gathered together so that
we can have that alignment, thatclear focus, the connection,
when we have then filtered thispreference down by generation,
as you alluded, the generationthe least likely to say let's
all work from home at the veryyoungest.
Now for us, genexus, hey, if weworked from home for the rest of
(17:09):
our life, we'd be okay withthat, because probably we've got
our social side sorted, we'vegot our kids, we've got a lot of
things going on, we've learntthe ropes and we can probably
get by pretty well from home.
But the younger generation needthe learning.
They need to pick up, almostwithout the planning, that
almost unplanned interactionwith people that just happens by
(17:29):
chance.
They need the shadowing or thementoring, they need to learn
the ropes, they need that socialinteraction, they need to
develop the contacts and thenetwork and they need to learn
not just in a classroom but in aworkplace, and so that's why
they need to gather.
And they're at the point inlife where maybe they're living
with parents, maybe they're ontheir own.
They need that social and thathappens these days in a
(17:52):
workplace with a good cultureand a flourishing environment.
So the future for young and oldwill be gathered, but with some
degree of flexibility, and Ithink we're going to need that
to ensure every generation islooked after.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Depending on the company, and it seems like the
more established companies inthe finance sector that have
lots of real estate in the bigcities they want people to come
back, so they justify the use ofall this square feet that
they've paid for.
I heard an interesting phrase,and that's earn the commute.
The workforce is saying yeah,if I'm going to come back into
the office you need to earn it,because before I wasn't paying
for all this travel, i had allthis spare time I can go and
drop the kids off.
(18:25):
But I think you're right thatsometimes people don't know
what's good for them and theyneed to be brought together, to
be gathered, to say I think youactually work better when you're
together.
But it brings me to anothertopic, that of wellness.
I think we all suffered duringthe pandemic because we were at
home and we were in differentenvironments and we weren't able
to gather and communicate andfeel a sense of belonging.
How does wellness fit into themodern workplace?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
It's essential.
And if we look at what's key tothat mental well-being, one key
aspect is belonging, the socialinteraction, the collegiality.
You know we're less connectedin our lives from other social
bottlenecks.
These days We probably don'tknow our neighbours.
People rent and move morefrequently.
People aren't part of acommunity organisation.
They may be not part of theRotary Club that you mentioned,
(19:11):
you know, when you were younger.
Maybe they're not engaged withcommunities of faith or
neighbourhood gatherings orvolunteering at places.
So where do we get communityBelonging, connection,
engagement, learning,contribution?
It's the workplace.
That's one key place.
When we surveyed workers inAustralia, we asked them what is
the number one place thatyou're working, the number one
(19:31):
place that you meet communityneeds on a regular basis?
and it was the workplace.
That's the place that they saidthey meet regular and
meaningful social interaction.
So that's why we need thegathering, that's why they
commute And that does requireleaders to facilitate that
culture.
Sometimes the most importantthings aren't those meetings Now
they matter and they're greatIsn't the training?
(19:52):
and that matters.
Isn't the town hall where wecan realign the values and the
vision, and that's important aswell.
Perhaps not even just thecollaboration meeting, where
we're in a room with awhiteboard.
Innovating It's sometimes thedowntime, it's the lunch, it's
the bump space, it's theinteraction that just happens
And that's why good leaders arebringing their teams back, not
every day, but some part of theweek, to ensure that they get
(20:14):
that good stuff, and that's key.
You know, at the very time thatpeople move jobs more
frequently, less connected intheir geography and the
neighbourhoods we are working onall of that And at the same
time, that we've seen mentalhealth decline And we don't need
to professionalise everythingand have people purely getting
medical input on that.
Some of it is good, oldfashioned relationship,
(20:35):
community and connection And theworkplace has a role in that
for the future of their teams.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Now, one term you talk about in your research is
employee experience.
What does that mean in practiceand why is it important?
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Well, it's so key because that's a factor of
retention these days.
So we ran a lot of studies inthe lead up to writing a book
called Work Well Being, and ayear of this research we found
that it's that employeeexperience, it's that
interaction, it's theintangibles that are so key when
it comes to either staying withthe company or even starting
with the company.
(21:09):
It's that workplace culture.
We found three aspects that areso key People now looking to
organizations that have a clearpurpose.
So they're looking formeaningful work, impacts in what
they do, creating difference intheir work, knowing that it's
got a real purpose, and that'sthat purpose piece.
(21:29):
They're, secondly, looking forculture, so a place of belonging
and interaction.
We've discussed that a bit.
But thirdly, now if you've gota company that's got a real good
purpose that you align with,the culture is great.
You feel part of things.
You also want to know that yourday to day input is having an
impact.
You're making a dent, you'rehaving a difference towards that
purpose that exists.
(21:51):
And when we get all three ofthose clear mission or purpose,
great culture of belonging andyou're having impacts and those
wins are celebrated, that ticksall of the boxes.
Now, yes, we have to getremuneration right.
Yes, we've got to get theflexibility right.
Yes, there's a greed to whichcareer progression and training
and all of that matters, butit's actually those three things
(22:11):
that culture, purpose andimpact that are core And that's
what people will even take aslight salary downturn compared
to what they could be gettingacross the road if they're
getting those things And itcertainly keeps people in the
role longer.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
So one thing we want to be doing is meaningful work,
not just for the sake of it,writing reports, going to
meetings.
How do you define meaningfulwork and can it be measured?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
It can be And we have run some studies in this regard
And it comes down to peoplefinding that what they do
firstly resonates with their ownvalues, so that's part of the
meaningfulness.
Secondly, they feel it makes adifference in the world around
them.
Now that world might be theworld of the customer, it might
be the world of the patient orclient, it might be the world of
(22:55):
their colleagues if they're ina support role, perhaps it's in
the world more broadly, but theywant to know that it is having
some impact there.
We looked at the Australianworkforce and we found that the
largest sector of employment andit's true around many countries
now is no longer themanufacturing sector.
We've seen declines there.
It's no longer the retailsector, as that's become more
(23:16):
casualized.
It's the not-for-profit sectorLargest sector in Australia by
employment count.
One in 10 Australians works in anot-for-profit charity
community organisation,sometimes those large non-profit
entities, social enterprises,etc.
Why is that?
Because chances are they couldearn more at a commercial place
(23:37):
than an off-for-profit, butthey're choosing it for the
impacts, for the differencemaking, for the meaningful work.
So that tells us a lot aboutthe reprioritisation and even
more since the pandemic, aspeople pause life, reflect it on
their situation and realisethat disruptions can come, that
you can't plan on the future,that it's not just about saving
(23:58):
for that retirement nest egg.
You've got to enjoy the journeyand feel that you're making the
most of each day.
That has furthered that focuson meaningful work and impacts.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Now, one phrase that I learnt first time during the
pandemic was presentinism.
Is it still a thing, and howshould it be managed?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Yeah, well, certainly needs to be managed, and I
think some of what we'vediscussed is the antidote to
that.
Do we want people on the teamwho are not motivated, who don't
resonate with what we're about?
I think a lot of the reason forthe presentinism comes to the
feet of the leaders.
They're not articulating theirpurpose, they're not clear on
mission, they're not engagingwith the team, they're not
(24:33):
putting the right people in theright areas, they're not
offering those meaningful jobdescriptions, they're not
perhaps giving the rewards andfeedbacks to the team, and all
of that therefore means thatpeople are plugging in and
clocking out, doing the time,and not really feeling they're
making a difference.
We found in our research wewrote it in our book on work
well-being that, yeah, for some,sure, work is simply a job, but
(24:55):
for so many more it's alifeline to purpose, meaning and
social interaction.
And they're the ones we want,they're the ones to keep and
they're not interested inpresentinism.
In fact, if they're not reallyengaged in the job, even if it's
got job security andremuneration, they'll look for
something better.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
According to the World Economic Forum, by 2025,
over 50% of all employers willrequire reskilling.
What areas do you think they'llneed reskilling in, and who
pays for this?
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Anything that can be automated will be Anything that
is so procedural and structuredand can be outsourced to
technology.
That's the way it's going to go.
Nothing new with this.
We've seen it through historyand it'll continue into the
future.
So what we need to do is be atthe point where we can add value
and, in fact, be in a spacewhere automation is not the best
(25:43):
.
So if we're just givingrepackaging things, we're giving
information, we're doingsomething repetitive, chances
are it can be replaced.
We've seen.
When we, I'm sure, began ourcareers, there were whole fields
of receptionists andsecretaries and support stuff.
That's all gone because AItechnology has allowed us to do
it ourselves.
However, technology is notgreat at interacting with people
(26:07):
, at thinking through complexproblems, at being innovative,
at building bridges andconnecting across diversity.
In other words, the soft skills, as though one's called the
people skills, the creativethinking, the communication
skills, the leadership, theengagement skills.
That turns out to be thenon-outsourcible stuff.
Only humans can do that well,and that's where we ought to
(26:30):
invest.
So if we're adding value,engaging with people,
communicating and leading,chances are that's going to be a
safe area, And if it does meanthat we can pass on some of our
roles, like writing the jobdescription or developing some
of that content, or perhapsdoing a repetitive summary of
some long paper to AI, all thebetter.
(26:50):
It'll frees up to do the higherorder of evaluating things.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
The last few months I've been speaking to a number
of AI experts on the podcast andmost of them have been
published so people can have alisten to them And I've really
challenged my own thinking.
So I agree with you that therepetitive jobs will be replaced
by AI, and that's happenedthroughout the ages.
But that then means that, asyou said, we'll have more time
for that creative element, thehuman element, the creative
thinking.
But the challenge is noteveryone is a creative thinker.
(27:14):
I would like to think I'mfairly creative.
I'm going to edit this podcastduring the week.
I'm going to add some flair toit.
I've taught myself how to dothat.
But the reason some people gointo certain jobs is because of
their background, theirpropensity, their education.
So if we can't all be creativethinkers, what do we retrain
those people that don't want tothink creatively?
Is there still a role forpeople who find creative
thinking doesn't come naturally?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Yeah, definitely.
And you know, when we thinkabout creative thinking, often
we're thinking almost in anartistic sense.
But of course scientists arecreative thinkers.
They're looking at problems innew ways and finding solutions.
And you would say that a lot ofthe deep thinkers are creative,
even though they think in aphilosophical or structured way.
The great teachers, you know,the great communicators, are all
(27:59):
creative, because what workedin the past may not engage today
.
What connected with GenerationX may not speak the language of
Generation Z.
So we all, by that nature, haveto continue to adapt and
reinvent and repurpose And Ithink in the broad sense we call
that creative or innovation.
But yeah, we're all going toneed some level of that.
(28:20):
It doesn't mean that we allneed to have the freedom to be
artistic, but but even in thosestructured areas, i think we
can't do what we did yesterdayand think it's going to get a
result tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
So we've mentioned AI a couple of times and we can't
mention AI without mentioninggenerative AI and, in particular
, chat GPT, and I'm sure youwere surprised what happened
last November that this burstonto the scene.
First of all, what was yourreaction to generative AI
systems like chat, gpt, and howdo you think they will impact
the generations, because we nowhave AI literally at our
fingertips?
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I was impressed to see how user friendly it was,
how quickly it emerged on thescene and the fact that it was
free and available for all.
But I also noticed, and evenwith the latest version of it, a
lot of errors.
And it's certainly improving,But it's something that we ought
not fully trust at this point.
In terms of the accuracy, thequality of the content and even
(29:17):
how it positions content, itdoesn't have the same nuance.
It doesn't think like a personin terms of knowing the lay of
the land, whether that bepolitically or socially, or
having the etiquette or havingto put complex things in
delicate ways.
It perhaps can't do that.
I think, therefore, we need, aswe approach any source of
content these days, a degree ofskepticism, a degree of the
(29:40):
ability to push back intoquestion And indeed the ability
to take content, whether itcomes from an internet search or
chat GPT, and really add thatnext layer of the human insight.
And I think maybe people will,for simple purposes and simple
tasks, just grab what a chat GPTpresents.
(30:02):
But I think if we really wantto add value and bring it to the
next level, people will seethrough it.
I think we need to bring thathuman element into it.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I would like, in chat GPT to an always on
enthusiastic intern.
You would always check theirwork before you go over to a
client.
So I think chat GPT and othertools like that are great.
first drafts They save sometime.
I think, though, the real powerof generative AI is when it
goes into the enterprise.
Let's fast forward five years,probably even three years, when
a bank, a credit union, afinancial telco has loaded all
(30:31):
of their data into enterpriseGPT.
It's something you can trustbecause it's been trained
properly.
It has all the nuances.
How do you think work willchange when I can ask my
enterprise AI a question thatwould take two or three hours,
maybe two or three weeks toresolve, and it can do it in
seconds?
How will that change theworkforce going forward?
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Well, that's where the gold is, andrew, exactly
right.
Because now it's dealing with adata set.
That is guaranteed And whatyou're using it for is to
distill that down, find links,look for insights, identify
patterns.
That is usable.
We use that.
Now We've got an AI functionthat we've developed for our
analysis of focus groups.
So if you can imagine an hourand a half focus group,
(31:12):
thousands of words and hundredsof pages often of script or
content after we've done a fewfocus groups And we need to find
one of the key themes and who'ssaying what and what are the
links there and what's thesentiment is a positive or
negative towards this concept orproduct?
And that's where the AIfunctionality really comes into
its own.
Maybe for some organizationstaking their full big data set
(31:36):
and it's trying to identifythose patterns or those insights
.
Maybe it's looking at a longhistory of data and looking at
historical measures.
Maybe it's taking data andoverlaying that with other
insights, like demographics orperhaps like geo mapping, to
find out where we're gettingthese patterns and what it means
.
So that's where the gold comes,because now we've got quality
information and we're using thetechnology to save the drudgery
(32:00):
of a human going through all ofthat transcript or data to find
the patterns.
A technology can do it quickerthan we can And in a lot of ways
find more links than we can,and then we can take it and use
it for those actionable purposes.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
So what would be your advice for leaders today to
attract and retain the besttalent?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Well, it's having the right culture, it's been clear
on the purpose and it'scelebrating those impact.
You know those That, that cpithat i was discussing earlier.
If we get that culture, purposeand impact right, that'll make
a difference.
I think that we want to developpeople.
You wanna make sure thatthey're growing.
We found in our research thatnine in ten people say they'll
stay with their employer ifoffered training, development by
(32:38):
their employer.
We've got a young generationthat are hungry to learn and
grow.
The other classroom stuff isn'tdoing it and it's the on the job
stuff that's really going tohelp.
They're gonna want to remainfuture proofed and that comes
through ongoing learning as well.
So if we can input into themsometimes you in the job, it
might be a bit of a plug in upskill I'm externally, but but
(32:58):
offer that ongoing training.
And finally, i would say asleaders that facilitate The
culture of the organizationalinteractions.
It doesn't just happen byitself.
It all does come back to thelead up.
Can we lead by example.
Ensure that the places Thrivingin terms of interactions create
some of those moments or bumpspaces where there's going to be
(33:20):
that interaction, to make surethat people feel included, they
belong, to have the socialinteractions and that's
meaningful in terms of team workcoming together to achieve
those tasks.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
So you're a social researcher.
you got all the answers forsixty four million dollar
question what's the future workand how do we get there?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Future work is a very strong one.
You know, all of this talk ofI'm cutting down the week or
maybe even universal basicincomes because we get
technology to do the work and wewon't have to, that's not gonna
happen because it's not whatthe human psyche looks for.
We are designed to create, tocontribute, to add value, to
make a difference.
(33:58):
We are designed to work and andwe want to now, hopefully not
working in areas of drudgery andand work that baby where we can
see those impacts, as we said,but work nonetheless.
And work doesn't just meanemployment.
I mean we're gonna live longer.
Not everyone is just gonna beemployed all of those years.
In fact, we know that some ofthe greatest contributions of
our life comes in thoseparenting years, when we plug
(34:19):
out of work and we're raisingkids, or maybe when we've
finished the paid work and wetake out of that.
But we're volunteering andretirees Still working and
contributing even though theymay not be employed.
So it's redefining what work is.
A lot of people do work as theyvolunteer on boards or as they
make contributions or mentor.
So it's it's work is not justemployment, work that makes a
(34:42):
difference and work that bringsthe best out of us and others.
That's the future of work inthe right context and social
culture.
It'll be here for millennia tocome.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
So we're almost out of time right to my favorite
part of the show, the quick fireround.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
We learn more about our guests iPhone or Android,
iphone window or I'll window inthe room or in the metaverse
definitely in the room yourbiggest hope for this year and
next that I can continue to growthis team here, not just in
size but in impacts, to make adifference.
I wish that I could do all of mylaundry, the app you use most
on your phone at the momentprobably weather best advice
(35:16):
you've ever received from an oldtheologian who wrote make as
much as you can and save as muchas you can, so that you can
give as much as you can.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
What are you reading at?
Speaker 3 (35:25):
the moment I'm reading a book called the
checklist manifesto, by a tall,grand way who should I invite
next on to the podcast.
probably one of my colleaguesactually feels pretty good next
generation and so Get all ofthese insights, but with a
millennial lens and how do youwant to be remembered?
as someone who use the giftsthey have and the opportunity
(35:47):
they had stewarded them forgreater and lasting impacts.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Now, as this is, the actionable future is podcast.
what three actionable thingsshould our audience do today
when it comes to betterunderstanding the needs of the
changing workforce?
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Firstly, to get a bit of an understanding of the
demographics they have in theirteams.
You know the generations,because that's going to guide
what they do.
Secondly, to hopefully get asense as to what each of them
looking for.
It will be different acrossthose generations of
demographics, whether that'sdone through discussions or one
time survey, but get theinsights.
So understand the team you know, get the insights.
(36:20):
And then, thirdly, communicatethe direction.
People don't want to justcontribute to yet another staff
survey or still sentiment.
They want to know they're beinglistened to and that actions
will flow from that.
So communicate back to the teamthe impacts and the direction
for greater engagement mark, howcan people find out more about
(36:40):
you and your work?
Well, a lot of information andthese reports freely accessible
on our website and that'smcrandlecom, som double C R I N
D L E dot com.
they can get the reports andbooks and indeed connect through
our socials on there as well.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Mark a fascinating discussion.
I've learned a lot, i've beenchallenged.
I'm a happy gen X.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Thanks so much for your time thanks, andrew, it's
been great to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Thank you for listening to the actionable
futurist podcast.
You can find all of ourprevious shows at actionable
futurist dot com And if you likewhat you've heard on the show,
please consider subscribing viayour favorite podcast app so you
never miss an episode.
You can find out more aboutAndrew and how he helps
(37:24):
corporates navigate a disruptivedigital world, with keynote
speeches and C sweet workshopsdelivered in person or virtually
at actionable futurist dot com.
Until next time, this has beenthe actionable futurist podcast.
Welcome to the Actionable Futurist podcast, a
show all about the near-termfuture, with practical and
actionable advice from a rangeof global experts to help you
stay ahead of the curve.
Every episode answers thequestion what's the future on,
with voices and opinions thatneed to be heard.
(00:23):
Your host is internationalkeynote speaker and Actionable
Futurist, andrew Grill.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
My guest today is Mark MacRindle, founder and
principal of MacRindle Research,a leading research-based
advisory firm based in Australia.
Mark works with the big brands,large organisations and senior
leaders to help them understandthe external environment in
which they operate, gainvisibility on the sentiment and
perceptions of their customersand community and identify the
emerging trends to assist themin future proofing their
(00:50):
products and services.
Welcome, Mark.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thanks, andrew, great to be with you, we're surprised
to talk to another Aussie.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
We've had a few Aussies on the show, but they're
few and far between, so thanksfor staying up late to talk to
us on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Delighted to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Now I've come across your research, just saying off
air that I'm surprised wehaven't met yet.
I'm well aware of what you doand your name comes up a lot on
my LinkedIn feed, but for thoselistening to the podcast and
haven't heard about you, whatdoes a social researcher do?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
We analyse society in a broad sense.
So everything from surveys tofocus groups and in-depth
interviews, to demographics anddata analytics and all of those
insights help us get a pictureof context where we're at, the
trends impact us and thereforewhere we're going.
So that's really the role of asocial researcher, and the
(01:34):
application of that is to helporganisations prepare for the
future.
Do their strategic planningengage with the customer or
better understand and engagewith their team?
member.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So I'm an actionable futurist.
I look at probably the shortterm future because a lot of my
clients are saying how do Iclose the quarter?
And for next year, how far areyour horizons?
that you look at in yourresearch.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
We look at generations, so that can be
decades.
We look at demographic trendsthat you can really stretch out
over 50 years and be pretty sureof it, and in fact that's what
a lot of our clients require.
If you think about a localgovernment as they move to
planning, or a state or federalgovernment as they look to maybe
land release or developingschools or infrastructure that
(02:13):
needs to last generations, andthey need some pretty good
insights now to work out what'sgoing to be needed in 20 years
so they're not caught short onthe infrastructure.
And demographics with anunderstanding of generational
expectations provides a prettygood pathway to get there.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, the generational thing has always
been a hot topic.
I was a member of the RotaryClub of Sydney.
We used to meet at theWentworth Hotel and I was asked
to give a speech one day aboutthe future of Rotary because, as
you're aware, the demographicsof Rotary are probably on the
older side.
I'm not a social researcher,but I went back and looked at
then the Baby Boomers, gen X,gen Y, and with that, probably
20 years ago, we've now got thedifferent generations, you've
got the Alphas, the Beaters, andmaybe we'll go on to those.
(02:51):
I'm fascinated.
How did you get into this field?
It's a very unique field towork in.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
That's right.
It wasn't a career advisor atschool that directed me that way
.
I, after school, went off touniversity to study psychology,
so that was my professionalundergrad.
But after that pathway I reallypreferred more the social
psychology.
You know how not individualsthink, but how groups think, how
societies organise themselvesand how we can interact in
(03:17):
communities, and so that movedme into this field of sociology,
which is really a subset ofthat is, social research and
analytics, and that's what I dotoday.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
We label these generations.
You know I'm Gen X.
I'm not sure if you're X or Y.
We have the Baby Boomers,millennials, alphas and Beaters.
Is it fair to label people thatbroadly, with 25 year label, or
are we going to run out ofnumbers and let it soon?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
We are definitely more than just our generation,
just as we're more than, youknow, just our gender or just
our nationality.
Obviously there's a lot ofvariation within any of those
categories than just to think ofa homogeneous group.
However, the generations are apretty solid first place to
start to understand customersegments or employment segments,
(04:00):
because the generationalsegments are multifactorial.
You know, they are a factor ofour life stage And clearly
people in their 20s aredifferent to people in their 60s
.
They also define the times thatshaped us.
So those of us Gen Xs, like youand me, we were shaped in the
1980s into the 90s.
You know the generations todaycoming of age in the 21st
(04:23):
century very different era Andthe events, the experiences, the
technology that we all livethrough at different life stages
are different.
Even though we all share them,we don't all share them at the
same life stages, particularlyat those formative years.
You know, in the age at whichwe're exposed to a new
technology or transformativeglobal event, that really does
determine how embedded that willbecome in our psyche and our
lifestyle and our behavior.
(04:44):
And so that makes thegenerations different and a
pretty good first place to startto understand our society and
our communities, notwithstandingthe difference within a
generation.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I was reminded on the weekend when I was speaking to
my parents and Adelaide of thefact that we've had different
experiences as we've grown up.
Dad has lived through one worldwar and polio.
Mum reminded me that she's nowseen two coronations, because
she was alive for the first oneand I've seen the second one.
You mentioned technology andI'm a technology futurist.
I'm absolutely fascinated abouthow technology impacts both
business and society In the lastgeneration the adoption of the
(05:17):
internet, mobile technologiesand AI.
how has that impactedgenerations?
I like to look at two differenttribes in every organization
the born digital and the goingdigital.
I think that is a sweepinggeneralization, but I think
their use of technology andtheir comfort levels with
technology is very different.
So maybe you could talk abouthow you've seen technology
layering and impacting all thegenerations.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
It has transformed us all, and technology has always
been around, in whatever era yougo to, but you just mentioned
what I think are the threerevolutions of our era.
Firstly, the internet what atransformation that was
accessing anything anywhere.
And then the digital, as theinternet came to our pockets and
all the social media and thedevice transformation that that
(06:01):
brought around.
But now, with AI, that's thethird of these digital
revolutions, and while each ofthem has been significant to us
and we've adapted to each ofthem as we have gone, the
youngest generation have onlyever known all of them.
It's just the stuff of theirworld And so it's far more
transformative for them than forus.
They're more intuitive to itAnd, as you said, growing up
digital, they are the digitalintegrators.
(06:23):
Generation Alpha is the verylatest of these generations,
born since 2010.
So they were born the same yearthat Instagram launched And
2010 was the year that the iPadwas released, and in the year
2010, that word app was launched, and so they've only ever known
the world of the app and thedevice and social media And, of
course, the connection throughthe digital platform.
(06:46):
So they are far more embeddedin this technological world than
the rest of us, and they willuse it as far more of a tool of
transformation and a lifestyletool than we will as well.
And while we're all stillgetting our heads around
generative AI that can createcontent in human forms, for them
, it's just yet the nextextension of what they've been
(07:08):
using speaking to those smartspeakers interacting in a world
of driverless and automation Andnow it's just entered into
every other software that theyuse.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, we've got to remind ourselves that the Alphas
and the Beaters they've grownup with the technology there.
I was on a panel a few weeksago about intellectual property
in the metaverse and a bunch oflawyers, And we had to actually
stop halfway through the panelAnd we actually said you know
what?
Everything we're talking aboutis not for us.
Old children and their childrenabsolutely get this.
So while we're trying tograpple with how we'd live in
the metaverse, I think these newgeneration are just going to
(07:39):
embrace it.
But, more importantly, theywill find uses for it that they
weren't even designed for.
I think they're very able toadapt to a new type of
technology.
You're seeing that the speed ofadoption is more pronounced
with these new generations.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yeah, definitely, there's far less intimidation of
new technology.
They're not the same barriersto entry for them.
They integrate it seamlesslyinto their lives and they bring
that entrepreneurial, innovativemindset to it.
They look for the applicationsand, being at the cutting edge
of age where they're adoptingnew technology at the stage of
(08:16):
experimentation in life, movingfrom learning into earning,
they're at the perfect cusp ofintegrating into this third
revolution.
I think, therefore, they'll useit very differently to how the
rest of us will.
They're not intimidated by itor pessimistic about it.
They see technology of today,ai, like every other technology
(08:37):
that's gone before.
It'll be used for connectionand human flourishing and
engagement and the removal ofdrudgery, and they'll bring it
to a new level.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I'm glad we're speaking today because the penny
has just dropped.
I've just made the connection.
Most of my clients are mid tosenior level and I try and
encourage them to be digitallycurious.
I want them to experiment withtechnology.
I did a session last week anall day session on Genitive AI
and the pre-work was to get themto sign up and play with chat
GPT.
I'm glad they did, but you justhit the nail on the head The
new generations when they'regoing from learning to earning,
(09:07):
they're not afraid to play withit.
They are naturally digitallycurious.
So while I have to sometimesdrag my clients, begging them to
play with new technology, thisis in their DNA because they're
allowed and they've given them aself-permission to experiment.
I think that's a very differenttype of curiosity.
Are you seeing that the youngerpeople have that inbuilt
digital curiosity and questionfor you how do we infect and I
(09:27):
use that word deliberatelyinfect the older generations to
become digitally curious?
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Great point And certainly they are doing that
the younger generation.
Firstly, they're global, sotrends go around the world very
quickly now through social media, but through their friendship
networks, through where they'restudying global.
And obviously they're digitalin terms of the platform.
That's the go to for them.
But that means they're visual.
That's how they consume content.
They look, they click, theyplay.
(09:52):
They consume content in videoform.
They're also social, so theydon't consume content alone,
they create content.
They take someone else'scontent and make it their own
The duets on TikTok as anexample of that And they're
mobile, where they will work andstudy and live and travel far
more of a global and mobilegeneration.
So all of that comes togetherto create this perfect context
(10:16):
for these new technologies andthe speed of learning and uptake
that they have.
But that's not to say that therest of us can't use the
technology.
The great thing about it todayis that it doesn't require
coding.
It's click and go, it's verysimple, it's intuitive, it's
user friendly And that meansthat the very oldest, as we know
, with perhaps elderly parentsand some listeners here
(10:37):
grandparents they're connectingwith them.
They're finding that on thetablet or with the Zoom or
whatever it may be.
They're connecting with theoldest generation on the very
latest technologies Andtherefore technology is being
used to bridge generation gaps,not create them.
To engage across diversity,rather than highlight those
differences and making us lessof a separated world and more of
(11:01):
a globally integrated one.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Well, i have experienced that firsthand
because I've been living awayfrom my parents for a number of
years.
I live in a different country.
I've lived here for 16 yearsand I'm a massive photographer.
So I post on Instagram all day,every day my stories.
In fact.
Later I'm going to walk aroundChelsea and look at all the
flowers in bloom for the flowershow and all the displays.
I'll put them up on Instagram.
And my parents in Adelaideindependently worked out that
I'm posting from Instagram toFacebook stories And, without me
(11:25):
even teaching how to use it,they found Facebook stories.
They now see my posts and dad,even overnight, has replied
about something with epithycomments.
They are seeing London throughmy eyes And when I speak to them
regularly, they know what I'vebeen doing.
They've seen my photographs.
They're able to experience myworld through technology And I
didn't even have to tell themhow to do it.
It was amazing that they sortof found this at their age and
(11:46):
stage.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
It's fantastic, and that's where technology empowers
all of the generations, andwhat it means is that the future
is not just for young people.
We can all work later becausewe're in a knowledge economy.
We can use the technology toremove drudgery or physicality
from a workplace, so we willhave people living longer, sure,
and younger longer, but workinglater in life using technology,
(12:08):
and therefore we're going tohave more of those generations
in the workplace interacting,and I think what that means is
that we don't have to behierarchical in the workplace.
We don't have to be started byage group anymore.
We will have young peoplelearning from the experience of
older ones, as has alwayshappened, but we'll have older
people learning and picking uptips from the younger ones, and
I think that creates a newplatform of interaction in the
(12:30):
workplace more age diversitythan ever, as we work later and
longer, but, at the same time,less of those generation gaps,
which has got to be a greatthing for our teams.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I'm glad you said that, because one of the things
I encourage my clients to do isbring those two tribes together
in something like a hackathonAnd then what happens is the
young people have a voice Theycan show the more experienced
people this is how I usetechnology And the going digital
basically go.
I didn't know that's the wayyoung people use this technology
And it stares them in the facethat here are two tribes in the
same room playing thistechnology.
I've had clients feedback, soI'm so glad we did that, because
(13:02):
we never knew how differentpeople thought And when you
bring them together, there is anunderstanding as a level
playing field.
I think young people areintimidated.
Or marks the CEO, i would neverget to talk to him or her, but
when you're in the same room andthey go wow, i didn't know that
it's a real leveler, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Totally.
It empowers young people, givesthem a seat at the table, gives
them a strength.
And that's why we have nowmentoring that's not just top
down, that's actually reversementoring, where, sure, the
older people pass on tips andexperience to the younger ones
and the younger ones engage andconnect and pass on tips to the
older generations, and that thatbridges those gaps and, i think
, equips all of us.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
So let's look at the future of work and where
generations are involved there.
According to Deloitte, by 2025,millennials and Gen Z will make
up 75% of the global workforce,and we keep hearing the
workforce is changing, so wherewill these next gens fit in?
Speaker 3 (13:50):
They continue to roll on through And so, as you said,
we've moved through X and Y andnow Generation Z entering the
workforce, born since 1995.
So they're a key part of thingsnow, but from 1995 to 2009,
that's when the Gen Z's ended,and from 2010, generation Alpha,
having got to the end of theLatin alphabet, we've moved to
(14:11):
the Greek one and the Alphas andthe B is moving through, and so
they will be about 8% of theworkforce by the end of this
decade.
These Gen Alphas, they've onlyjust hit the teenage years, but
they're fast coming as well, andI think what this generational
labeling and the generationalinsights helps us all understand
is that actually, times keepmoving forward and new cohorts
(14:31):
keep coming through, and it'snot just the world of us Gen X
or any more.
In fact, there are more peopleat work now in your team or in
mine in the average workforce,born since 1980 than all of us
born before 1980.
We sometimes think aboutmillennials or Gen Z as the
emerging generation, but they'rethe dominant generation,
they're by far the majority, andthat just helps keep us all, i
(14:54):
think, a little bit perhapscircumspect in our role.
Yes, we might bring somefinancial leverage, some
experience leverage, some maybeauthority leverage, but they
bring the demographic power and,i think, the technology input
as well, and that then justmeans we keep the door open to
the next and we keep looking notjust to how we were but where
it's going, not just what we'vealways done, but open to those
(15:18):
trends and changes by looking atthe ever next generation coming
through.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So the last three years or so have been quite
impactful.
We learned that we could workfrom home.
We learned the technology wassustainable.
I know in Australia, i know inthe UK and in the US the
companies that I deal with arestill battling with this
pendulum of do we want everyoneto return to work?
do we allow people to work fromhome some days of the week?
Where are the generations beingimpacted by these decisions?
(15:43):
Because I think one of thegroups that missed out during
the pandemic were the youngpeople, the interns, that
weren't able to observe howpeople got work done, being in a
meeting room and being able tostand up and talk to someone.
Where are you seeing thependulum shifting and where do
the generations fit in that, andare some more keen to be in the
office or have the newfoundfreedom of working from home and
that's the way going forward?
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Well, that's exactly right, andrew.
It is impacting the youngergenerations more than the older
ones.
The future of work will behybrid.
We've run consistent studieshere and around the world on
this and the majority ofemployees are saying that they
actually want a mix.
They want the flexibility ofwork from home, so we will have,
to some extent, a scatteredworkforce, but they also need
(16:26):
that human driver of connection,belonging, engagement.
And if we look at workplaceneeds at the moment and into the
future, what do we need more?
We need innovation, we needadaptation, we need alignment
and focus and connection andengagement, and that happens
best when we gather, not justwhen we're scattered.
So that means the future willbe a mix of both.
(16:46):
Yes, we'll have some daysworking from home, working
remotely, but we will need sometime gathered together so that
we can have that alignment, thatclear focus, the connection,
when we have then filtered thispreference down by generation,
as you alluded, the generationthe least likely to say let's
all work from home at the veryyoungest.
Now for us, genexus, hey, if weworked from home for the rest of
(17:09):
our life, we'd be okay withthat, because probably we've got
our social side sorted, we'vegot our kids, we've got a lot of
things going on, we've learntthe ropes and we can probably
get by pretty well from home.
But the younger generation needthe learning.
They need to pick up, almostwithout the planning, that
almost unplanned interactionwith people that just happens by
(17:29):
chance.
They need the shadowing or thementoring, they need to learn
the ropes, they need that socialinteraction, they need to
develop the contacts and thenetwork and they need to learn
not just in a classroom but in aworkplace, and so that's why
they need to gather.
And they're at the point inlife where maybe they're living
with parents, maybe they're ontheir own.
They need that social and thathappens these days in a
(17:52):
workplace with a good cultureand a flourishing environment.
So the future for young and oldwill be gathered, but with some
degree of flexibility, and Ithink we're going to need that
to ensure every generation islooked after.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Depending on the company, and it seems like the
more established companies inthe finance sector that have
lots of real estate in the bigcities they want people to come
back, so they justify the use ofall this square feet that
they've paid for.
I heard an interesting phrase,and that's earn the commute.
The workforce is saying yeah,if I'm going to come back into
the office you need to earn it,because before I wasn't paying
for all this travel, i had allthis spare time I can go and
drop the kids off.
(18:25):
But I think you're right thatsometimes people don't know
what's good for them and theyneed to be brought together, to
be gathered, to say I think youactually work better when you're
together.
But it brings me to anothertopic, that of wellness.
I think we all suffered duringthe pandemic because we were at
home and we were in differentenvironments and we weren't able
to gather and communicate andfeel a sense of belonging.
How does wellness fit into themodern workplace?
Speaker 3 (18:48):
It's essential.
And if we look at what's key tothat mental well-being, one key
aspect is belonging, the socialinteraction, the collegiality.
You know we're less connectedin our lives from other social
bottlenecks.
These days We probably don'tknow our neighbours.
People rent and move morefrequently.
People aren't part of acommunity organisation.
They may be not part of theRotary Club that you mentioned,
(19:11):
you know, when you were younger.
Maybe they're not engaged withcommunities of faith or
neighbourhood gatherings orvolunteering at places.
So where do we get communityBelonging, connection,
engagement, learning,contribution?
It's the workplace.
That's one key place.
When we surveyed workers inAustralia, we asked them what is
the number one place thatyou're working, the number one
(19:31):
place that you meet communityneeds on a regular basis?
and it was the workplace.
That's the place that they saidthey meet regular and
meaningful social interaction.
So that's why we need thegathering, that's why they
commute And that does requireleaders to facilitate that
culture.
Sometimes the most importantthings aren't those meetings Now
they matter and they're greatIsn't the training?
(19:52):
and that matters.
Isn't the town hall where wecan realign the values and the
vision, and that's important aswell.
Perhaps not even just thecollaboration meeting, where
we're in a room with awhiteboard.
Innovating It's sometimes thedowntime, it's the lunch, it's
the bump space, it's theinteraction that just happens
And that's why good leaders arebringing their teams back, not
every day, but some part of theweek, to ensure that they get
(20:14):
that good stuff, and that's key.
You know, at the very time thatpeople move jobs more
frequently, less connected intheir geography and the
neighbourhoods we are working onall of that And at the same
time, that we've seen mentalhealth decline And we don't need
to professionalise everythingand have people purely getting
medical input on that.
Some of it is good, oldfashioned relationship,
(20:35):
community and connection And theworkplace has a role in that
for the future of their teams.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Now, one term you talk about in your research is
employee experience.
What does that mean in practiceand why is it important?
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Well, it's so key because that's a factor of
retention these days.
So we ran a lot of studies inthe lead up to writing a book
called Work Well Being, and ayear of this research we found
that it's that employeeexperience, it's that
interaction, it's theintangibles that are so key when
it comes to either staying withthe company or even starting
with the company.
(21:09):
It's that workplace culture.
We found three aspects that areso key People now looking to
organizations that have a clearpurpose.
So they're looking formeaningful work, impacts in what
they do, creating difference intheir work, knowing that it's
got a real purpose, and that'sthat purpose piece.
(21:29):
They're, secondly, looking forculture, so a place of belonging
and interaction.
We've discussed that a bit.
But thirdly, now if you've gota company that's got a real good
purpose that you align with,the culture is great.
You feel part of things.
You also want to know that yourday to day input is having an
impact.
You're making a dent, you'rehaving a difference towards that
purpose that exists.
(21:51):
And when we get all three ofthose clear mission or purpose,
great culture of belonging andyou're having impacts and those
wins are celebrated, that ticksall of the boxes.
Now, yes, we have to getremuneration right.
Yes, we've got to get theflexibility right.
Yes, there's a greed to whichcareer progression and training
and all of that matters, butit's actually those three things
(22:11):
that culture, purpose andimpact that are core And that's
what people will even take aslight salary downturn compared
to what they could be gettingacross the road if they're
getting those things And itcertainly keeps people in the
role longer.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
So one thing we want to be doing is meaningful work,
not just for the sake of it,writing reports, going to
meetings.
How do you define meaningfulwork and can it be measured?
Speaker 3 (22:34):
It can be And we have run some studies in this regard
And it comes down to peoplefinding that what they do
firstly resonates with their ownvalues, so that's part of the
meaningfulness.
Secondly, they feel it makes adifference in the world around
them.
Now that world might be theworld of the customer, it might
be the world of the patient orclient, it might be the world of
(22:55):
their colleagues if they're ina support role, perhaps it's in
the world more broadly, but theywant to know that it is having
some impact there.
We looked at the Australianworkforce and we found that the
largest sector of employment andit's true around many countries
now is no longer themanufacturing sector.
We've seen declines there.
It's no longer the retailsector, as that's become more
(23:16):
casualized.
It's the not-for-profit sectorLargest sector in Australia by
employment count.
One in 10 Australians works in anot-for-profit charity
community organisation,sometimes those large non-profit
entities, social enterprises,etc.
Why is that?
Because chances are they couldearn more at a commercial place
(23:37):
than an off-for-profit, butthey're choosing it for the
impacts, for the differencemaking, for the meaningful work.
So that tells us a lot aboutthe reprioritisation and even
more since the pandemic, aspeople pause life, reflect it on
their situation and realisethat disruptions can come, that
you can't plan on the future,that it's not just about saving
(23:58):
for that retirement nest egg.
You've got to enjoy the journeyand feel that you're making the
most of each day.
That has furthered that focuson meaningful work and impacts.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Now, one phrase that I learnt first time during the
pandemic was presentinism.
Is it still a thing, and howshould it be managed?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Yeah, well, certainly needs to be managed, and I
think some of what we'vediscussed is the antidote to
that.
Do we want people on the teamwho are not motivated, who don't
resonate with what we're about?
I think a lot of the reason forthe presentinism comes to the
feet of the leaders.
They're not articulating theirpurpose, they're not clear on
mission, they're not engagingwith the team, they're not
(24:33):
putting the right people in theright areas, they're not
offering those meaningful jobdescriptions, they're not
perhaps giving the rewards andfeedbacks to the team, and all
of that therefore means thatpeople are plugging in and
clocking out, doing the time,and not really feeling they're
making a difference.
We found in our research wewrote it in our book on work
well-being that, yeah, for some,sure, work is simply a job, but
(24:55):
for so many more it's alifeline to purpose, meaning and
social interaction.
And they're the ones we want,they're the ones to keep and
they're not interested inpresentinism.
In fact, if they're not reallyengaged in the job, even if it's
got job security andremuneration, they'll look for
something better.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
According to the World Economic Forum, by 2025,
over 50% of all employers willrequire reskilling.
What areas do you think they'llneed reskilling in, and who
pays for this?
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Anything that can be automated will be Anything that
is so procedural and structuredand can be outsourced to
technology.
That's the way it's going to go.
Nothing new with this.
We've seen it through historyand it'll continue into the
future.
So what we need to do is be atthe point where we can add value
and, in fact, be in a spacewhere automation is not the best
(25:43):
.
So if we're just givingrepackaging things, we're giving
information, we're doingsomething repetitive, chances
are it can be replaced.
We've seen.
When we, I'm sure, began ourcareers, there were whole fields
of receptionists andsecretaries and support stuff.
That's all gone because AItechnology has allowed us to do
it ourselves.
However, technology is notgreat at interacting with people
(26:07):
, at thinking through complexproblems, at being innovative,
at building bridges andconnecting across diversity.
In other words, the soft skills, as though one's called the
people skills, the creativethinking, the communication
skills, the leadership, theengagement skills.
That turns out to be thenon-outsourcible stuff.
Only humans can do that well,and that's where we ought to
(26:30):
invest.
So if we're adding value,engaging with people,
communicating and leading,chances are that's going to be a
safe area, And if it does meanthat we can pass on some of our
roles, like writing the jobdescription or developing some
of that content, or perhapsdoing a repetitive summary of
some long paper to AI, all thebetter.
(26:50):
It'll frees up to do the higherorder of evaluating things.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
The last few months I've been speaking to a number
of AI experts on the podcast andmost of them have been
published so people can have alisten to them And I've really
challenged my own thinking.
So I agree with you that therepetitive jobs will be replaced
by AI, and that's happenedthroughout the ages.
But that then means that, asyou said, we'll have more time
for that creative element, thehuman element, the creative
thinking.
But the challenge is noteveryone is a creative thinker.
(27:14):
I would like to think I'mfairly creative.
I'm going to edit this podcastduring the week.
I'm going to add some flair toit.
I've taught myself how to dothat.
But the reason some people gointo certain jobs is because of
their background, theirpropensity, their education.
So if we can't all be creativethinkers, what do we retrain
those people that don't want tothink creatively?
Is there still a role forpeople who find creative
thinking doesn't come naturally?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Yeah, definitely.
And you know, when we thinkabout creative thinking, often
we're thinking almost in anartistic sense.
But of course scientists arecreative thinkers.
They're looking at problems innew ways and finding solutions.
And you would say that a lot ofthe deep thinkers are creative,
even though they think in aphilosophical or structured way.
The great teachers, you know,the great communicators, are all
(27:59):
creative, because what workedin the past may not engage today
.
What connected with GenerationX may not speak the language of
Generation Z.
So we all, by that nature, haveto continue to adapt and
reinvent and repurpose And Ithink in the broad sense we call
that creative or innovation.
But yeah, we're all going toneed some level of that.
(28:20):
It doesn't mean that we allneed to have the freedom to be
artistic, but but even in thosestructured areas, i think we
can't do what we did yesterdayand think it's going to get a
result tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
So we've mentioned AI a couple of times and we can't
mention AI without mentioninggenerative AI and, in particular
, chat GPT, and I'm sure youwere surprised what happened
last November that this burstonto the scene.
First of all, what was yourreaction to generative AI
systems like chat, gpt, and howdo you think they will impact
the generations, because we nowhave AI literally at our
fingertips?
Speaker 3 (28:53):
I was impressed to see how user friendly it was,
how quickly it emerged on thescene and the fact that it was
free and available for all.
But I also noticed, and evenwith the latest version of it, a
lot of errors.
And it's certainly improving,But it's something that we ought
not fully trust at this point.
In terms of the accuracy, thequality of the content and even
(29:17):
how it positions content, itdoesn't have the same nuance.
It doesn't think like a personin terms of knowing the lay of
the land, whether that bepolitically or socially, or
having the etiquette or havingto put complex things in
delicate ways.
It perhaps can't do that.
I think, therefore, we need, aswe approach any source of
content these days, a degree ofskepticism, a degree of the
(29:40):
ability to push back intoquestion And indeed the ability
to take content, whether itcomes from an internet search or
chat GPT, and really add thatnext layer of the human insight.
And I think maybe people will,for simple purposes and simple
tasks, just grab what a chat GPTpresents.
(30:02):
But I think if we really wantto add value and bring it to the
next level, people will seethrough it.
I think we need to bring thathuman element into it.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I would like, in chat GPT to an always on
enthusiastic intern.
You would always check theirwork before you go over to a
client.
So I think chat GPT and othertools like that are great.
first drafts They save sometime.
I think, though, the real powerof generative AI is when it
goes into the enterprise.
Let's fast forward five years,probably even three years, when
a bank, a credit union, afinancial telco has loaded all
(30:31):
of their data into enterpriseGPT.
It's something you can trustbecause it's been trained
properly.
It has all the nuances.
How do you think work willchange when I can ask my
enterprise AI a question thatwould take two or three hours,
maybe two or three weeks toresolve, and it can do it in
seconds?
How will that change theworkforce going forward?
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Well, that's where the gold is, andrew, exactly
right.
Because now it's dealing with adata set.
That is guaranteed And whatyou're using it for is to
distill that down, find links,look for insights, identify
patterns.
That is usable.
We use that.
Now We've got an AI functionthat we've developed for our
analysis of focus groups.
So if you can imagine an hourand a half focus group,
(31:12):
thousands of words and hundredsof pages often of script or
content after we've done a fewfocus groups And we need to find
one of the key themes and who'ssaying what and what are the
links there and what's thesentiment is a positive or
negative towards this concept orproduct?
And that's where the AIfunctionality really comes into
its own.
Maybe for some organizationstaking their full big data set
(31:36):
and it's trying to identifythose patterns or those insights
.
Maybe it's looking at a longhistory of data and looking at
historical measures.
Maybe it's taking data andoverlaying that with other
insights, like demographics orperhaps like geo mapping, to
find out where we're gettingthese patterns and what it means
.
So that's where the gold comes,because now we've got quality
information and we're using thetechnology to save the drudgery
(32:00):
of a human going through all ofthat transcript or data to find
the patterns.
A technology can do it quickerthan we can And in a lot of ways
find more links than we can,and then we can take it and use
it for those actionable purposes.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
So what would be your advice for leaders today to
attract and retain the besttalent?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Well, it's having the right culture, it's been clear
on the purpose and it'scelebrating those impact.
You know those That, that cpithat i was discussing earlier.
If we get that culture, purposeand impact right, that'll make
a difference.
I think that we want to developpeople.
You wanna make sure thatthey're growing.
We found in our research thatnine in ten people say they'll
stay with their employer ifoffered training, development by
(32:38):
their employer.
We've got a young generationthat are hungry to learn and
grow.
The other classroom stuff isn'tdoing it and it's the on the job
stuff that's really going tohelp.
They're gonna want to remainfuture proofed and that comes
through ongoing learning as well.
So if we can input into themsometimes you in the job, it
might be a bit of a plug in upskill I'm externally, but but
(32:58):
offer that ongoing training.
And finally, i would say asleaders that facilitate The
culture of the organizationalinteractions.
It doesn't just happen byitself.
It all does come back to thelead up.
Can we lead by example.
Ensure that the places Thrivingin terms of interactions create
some of those moments or bumpspaces where there's going to be
(33:20):
that interaction, to make surethat people feel included, they
belong, to have the socialinteractions and that's
meaningful in terms of team workcoming together to achieve
those tasks.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
So you're a social researcher.
you got all the answers forsixty four million dollar
question what's the future workand how do we get there?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Future work is a very strong one.
You know, all of this talk ofI'm cutting down the week or
maybe even universal basicincomes because we get
technology to do the work and wewon't have to, that's not gonna
happen because it's not whatthe human psyche looks for.
We are designed to create, tocontribute, to add value, to
make a difference.
(33:58):
We are designed to work and andwe want to now, hopefully not
working in areas of drudgery andand work that baby where we can
see those impacts, as we said,but work nonetheless.
And work doesn't just meanemployment.
I mean we're gonna live longer.
Not everyone is just gonna beemployed all of those years.
In fact, we know that some ofthe greatest contributions of
our life comes in thoseparenting years, when we plug
(34:19):
out of work and we're raisingkids, or maybe when we've
finished the paid work and wetake out of that.
But we're volunteering andretirees Still working and
contributing even though theymay not be employed.
So it's redefining what work is.
A lot of people do work as theyvolunteer on boards or as they
make contributions or mentor.
So it's it's work is not justemployment, work that makes a
(34:42):
difference and work that bringsthe best out of us and others.
That's the future of work inthe right context and social
culture.
It'll be here for millennia tocome.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
So we're almost out of time right to my favorite
part of the show, the quick fireround.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
We learn more about our guests iPhone or Android,
iphone window or I'll window inthe room or in the metaverse
definitely in the room yourbiggest hope for this year and
next that I can continue to growthis team here, not just in
size but in impacts, to make adifference.
I wish that I could do all of mylaundry, the app you use most
on your phone at the momentprobably weather best advice
(35:16):
you've ever received from an oldtheologian who wrote make as
much as you can and save as muchas you can, so that you can
give as much as you can.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
What are you reading at?
Speaker 3 (35:25):
the moment I'm reading a book called the
checklist manifesto, by a tall,grand way who should I invite
next on to the podcast.
probably one of my colleaguesactually feels pretty good next
generation and so Get all ofthese insights, but with a
millennial lens and how do youwant to be remembered?
as someone who use the giftsthey have and the opportunity
(35:47):
they had stewarded them forgreater and lasting impacts.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Now, as this is, the actionable future is podcast.
what three actionable thingsshould our audience do today
when it comes to betterunderstanding the needs of the
changing workforce?
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Firstly, to get a bit of an understanding of the
demographics they have in theirteams.
You know the generations,because that's going to guide
what they do.
Secondly, to hopefully get asense as to what each of them
looking for.
It will be different acrossthose generations of
demographics, whether that'sdone through discussions or one
time survey, but get theinsights.
So understand the team you know, get the insights.
(36:20):
And then, thirdly, communicatethe direction.
People don't want to justcontribute to yet another staff
survey or still sentiment.
They want to know they're beinglistened to and that actions
will flow from that.
So communicate back to the teamthe impacts and the direction
for greater engagement mark, howcan people find out more about
(36:40):
you and your work?
Well, a lot of information andthese reports freely accessible
on our website and that'smcrandlecom, som double C R I N
D L E dot com.
they can get the reports andbooks and indeed connect through
our socials on there as well.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Mark a fascinating discussion.
I've learned a lot, i've beenchallenged.
I'm a happy gen X.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Thanks so much for your time thanks, andrew, it's
been great to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Thank you for listening to the actionable
futurist podcast.
You can find all of ourprevious shows at actionable
futurist dot com And if you likewhat you've heard on the show,
please consider subscribing viayour favorite podcast app so you
never miss an episode.
You can find out more aboutAndrew and how he helps
(37:24):
corporates navigate a disruptivedigital world, with keynote
speeches and C sweet workshopsdelivered in person or virtually
at actionable futurist dot com.
Until next time, this has beenthe actionable futurist podcast.
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