September 8, 2023 • 27 mins
The world of law is not immune to the sweeping changes brought about by technological advancements, specifically the advent of Artificial Intelligence. In a fascinating discussion with Jaeger Glucina, Chief of Staff at Luminance, we delve into how AI is reshaping the legal industry and creating new possibilities for efficiency and accuracy in legal processes.
Built on a proprietary legal Large Language Model (LLM), Luminance uses next-generation AI to automate the generation, negotiation and analysis of contracts. Developed by world-leading AI experts and validated by leading lawyers, Luminance’s specialist ‘legal-grade’ AI is a trusted co-pilot for any legal team.
From taking a first pass review of any contract under negotiation, to a first-of-its-kind AI chatbot for redrafting clauses on-the-fly and an intelligent contract repository for granular insight into any contractual landscape, Luminance brings AI to every touchpoint a lawyer has with their documents.
A key area of focus in this conversation is the revolutionary role of AI in contract drafting and reviewing. Luminance is leading the way by using a combination of generative and analytical AI to improve accuracy and efficiency in these areas. This technology allows for the identification of risk elements in contracts and the generation of drafts with simple prompts.
As Jaeger highlights, this is a significant shift from traditional legal processes and has the potential to greatly improve the working lives of lawyers and legal professionals.
One of the fascinating aspects of AI's integration into the legal sector is its potential to redefine traditional business models. A significant shift is taking place in how lawyers bill for their services. AI is introducing opportunities for automation, leading to a drastic reduction in time spent on certain tasks. This change is influencing the billing model in the legal industry, moving away from hourly billing towards value-based pricing.
As the legal industry continues to embrace AI, there's a growing need for digital literacy among legal professionals. The integration of AI into legal processes requires a workforce that understands and can effectively utilize these new tools.
Jaeger underscores the importance of equipping legal professionals with the necessary digital skills to harness the full potential of AI in their work.
More on Jaeger
Jaeger on LinkedIn
Jaeger on Twitter
Luminance website
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Episode Transcript
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Intro (00:01):
Welcome to the Actionable Futurist podcast, a show all
about the near-term future, withpractical and actionable advice
from a range of global expertsto help you stay ahead of the
curve.
Every episode answers thequestion what's the future on,
with voices and opinions thatneed to be heard.
(00:23):
Your host is internationalkeynote speaker and Actionable
Futurist, andrew Grill.
Andrew Grill (00:30):
Not surprisingly, the latest Gardner hype cycle
for AI puts generative AI atpeak hype.
Even my parents in Australiaare talking about it.
So how do you cut through allthis chat GPT hype, particularly
when it comes to the context ofprofessional services?
To address these issues andmore, my guest is Jaeger Glucina
, the Chief of Staff at WorldLeading AI Company Luminance
Welcome, Jaeger.
Jaeger Glucina (00:51):
Hello, thank you very much for having me, Andrew
.
Andrew Grill (00:53):
For those of us that haven't heard about
luminance what does luminance doand what problem do you solve?
Jaeger Glucina (00:58):
Luminance is an AI which really revolutionizes
how lawyers work and I know thatis a word that is majorly
overused revolutionized but itquite literally reads a whole
contract, works out the riskyparts, which bits a lawyer needs
to think about, and can evenread draft a contract with a
simple prompt from you.
It combines generative withanalytical AI to do something
(01:21):
very difficult that no one elsehas really managed to achieve,
because actually AI is anincredibly hard thing to do.
What gives us a major advantageis the fact that it's been
trained and validated by the toplaw firms in the world.
So this is AI that performsspecialist legal analysis and
that is a radical change in howlawyers are going about their
work today.
If you think about it, thereare people in every office and
(01:44):
every building in the worlddealing with contracts every day
whose lives would bedramatically improved if they
had this technology.
We have customers in 60countries using Luminance to
augment and automate big partsof their daily work, like
drafting and negotiatingcontracts, which is really key
to alleviating the burden thatlawyers are shouldering.
So Koch Industries, lamborghini, yokogawa, Hitachi and Liberty
(02:06):
Mutual are just a few of thebusinesses using us right now.
Andrew Grill (02:09):
What's the difference between generalist AI
platforms such as ChatGPT andspecialist AI platforms such as
yours, and what are the benefitsof each?
Don't get me wrong.
Jaeger Glucina (02:18):
Chatgpt is an incredible development in the
field of AI.
It's brought AI into the publicconsciousness, I think for the
first time properly in many,many years, and it can do really
interesting things.
So many interesting things, buttwo very basic examples it can
write a jingle for an ad or evenwrite a pretty decent sounding
poem.
I know we've all experimentedwith that, but it's generally
(02:41):
and I emphasize the wordgenerally here quite useful at
doing very generalist things.
So I like to describe it asthat person we've all sat next
to at a dinner party who seemsto know something about
everything and they're totallyconvincing.
They've got the whole tablehanging on their every word.
But afterwards, when you leavethe party, you think to yourself
hmm, I actually think thatmight have been a load of
(03:01):
garbage.
So that's essentially whatChatGPT is aiming to do.
It's aiming to give an answerat all costs, without a thought
for accuracy.
Numerous is quite different tothat.
The reason being is that overthe past few years our team has
been at the forefront ofspecialist legal large language
models or LLMs as we all knowthem now and we've been working
with some of the world's top lawfirms and in-house legal teams
(03:23):
to get a really big head startand we've been able to, as a
result, develop an AI which isan actual legal expert.
Andrew Grill (03:31):
I have an alternate view of how to
describe ChatGPT.
I liken it to an enthusiastic,always on intern and, just like
your dinner party guests, theywould go off and research things
.
They would be very enthusiastic, they'd come back with some of
the answer but, as you know,you'd always have to check their
work.
You would never give anintern's work to a client
directly or publish it online.
So, dinner party guest whoknows a lot about everything, or
(03:54):
enthusiastic intern, I wonderif they were both at the same
dinner party what answers wouldget?
Jaeger Glucina (04:00):
That's the question.
Andrew Grill (04:01):
So you started your career as a barrister and
solicitor in New Zealandrepresenting earthquake victims
against insurance companies.
So could you explain yourjourney from New Zealand to the
world of AI in Cambridge?
Jaeger Glucina (04:12):
I started my professional career in what I
personally found was a veryrewarding field of law.
Others might call it boring,but I'm very grateful for the
experience that gave me and thefact that I was able to do some
good for my clients.
A lot of my time, as you canprobably imagine, during that
role was entrenched in discoverywork, which is essentially
reviewing every document, email,report, text, anything really
(04:33):
that could be relevant to acourt case, and we're talking
the days of physical filing andprinting of literally everything
.
Most of that's now moved todigital, but I experienced
firsthand some of the realchallenges that still face
lawyers today.
It's the sheer volume.
So we all know that data isgrowing every day.
We're producing moreinformation and content than
ever and it's only going to keepgetting bigger.
(04:55):
But you know, what's notchanging is the deadlines set by
clients and by the courts.
If anything, they're gettingshorter.
So burnout is a real thing inthe legal profession.
But my experiences early in lawhighlighted how the quality of
my work and my work-life balancecould be improved by technology
which could automate legaltasks.
(05:16):
Tech like that didn't reallyexist at the time, or they're in
their very early years andhadn't made their way to New
Zealand?
That's probably more likely.
So when I moved to Londonshortly afterwards, I spent a
year in-house at another techstartup, where much of my
day-to-day job consisted ofgenerating and reviewing
contracts and submittingcompanies house filings for our
customers.
Like many startups, thatcompany didn't make it, but I'd
(05:38):
been looking into legal tech andhad come across something that
sounded very exciting.
It was a new AI product whichwas set to change the game for
M&A legal due diligence.
I'd been burned before bystartups, obviously, but I did
some pretty thorough researchand it quickly became quite
clear to me that this was reallysomething that had the
potential to change the futureof the profession.
(05:59):
That was Luminance, of course,and that's where my introduction
to AI started six years ago.
Andrew Grill (06:04):
You said it's skilled, specialist, legal grade
.
Ai is the future of business,but what does this mean in
practice?
Jaeger Glucina (06:10):
Well, luminance employs a large language model
LLM, as we've established.
The key difference from otherLLMs is that Luminance has been
purpose-built from inception forlegal, specific applications.
We talked a little bit aboutthat.
We were founded in 2015, sosince then, the AI has had the
chance to have a few years to beinformed by over 150 million
(06:31):
verified legal documents, whichis very different to any old
document that's been scrapedfrom the internet.
It's that exposure to the vastnumbers of specific legal
documents, combined with ourcore proprietary AI deep domain
knowledge and constant use andclassification by the top legal
users all over the world.
That means it is now that mostadvanced legal LLM and therefore
(06:54):
the most reliable, which is theimportant part.
That's where the limitations ofDPT and other generalist AI
chatbots begin.
They're not fit for purpose invery specialist fields.
Take medicine, manufacturing,engineering.
All of these require that samelevel of deep domain knowledge
that legal does.
It's important that the AIbeing used in those fields is
(07:15):
able to adapt to and learn thenuanced ways in which those
industries do business and makedecisions.
Anything less than that has thepotential to do more harm than
good.
Andrew Grill (07:24):
So I do a lot of work with legal clients and they
all want to know about AI.
I've spent many an hour or twotalking to law firms and their
clients.
They're all a bit worried aboutAI because if you charge by the
hour and AI can do things inmilliseconds, this will disrupt
things.
So how do you think AI willdisrupt the role of a lawyer
both now and in five years time?
Jaeger Glucina (07:45):
Great question.
A lot of lawyers have and thisis in my experience been
historically quite worried aboutand to an extent, some still
are the AI overlord coming totake over some time in the near
future and, among other veryscary things, putting everyone
out of a job.
My response to that is that westill need a bit of an injection
of reality.
(08:05):
There has been a fundamentalshift in the way people are
looking at and using AI rightnow, mostly thanks to tools like
chat, TBT and co-pilot, but weare still a way off AI truly
replicating human thought andbehavior, even though the chat
box out there sounding prettyconversational these days.
What we've focused on atLuminance is a more narrow
application of AI, which isdesigned to change the way that
(08:27):
people work, make decisions andultimately live their lives.
So what do I think things willlook like for lawyers in five
years time?
If you think about it, so muchof a lawyer's day-to-day work
could be automated.
I'm not talking about thereally complex work, but the
filing, the large-scale documentreview, due diligence, data
subject access requests off theback of GDPR drafting and
(08:49):
reviewing low risk butincredibly repetitive contracts
like NDAs.
If all of that work wasautomated which I believe it
easily, will be in the next fiveyears, because the technology
is already there now.
Lawyers would get a huge chunkof their day back for creative
thinking.
So having time to think is whenpeople start to come up with
new ideas, which is ultimatelywhat will take society to the
(09:11):
next level, and that's what Ibelieve will call the AI
revolution.
Andrew Grill (09:15):
I'm glad you mentioned critical thinking,
because I think that's a skill alot of school leavers aren't
taught and we'll have more timeto think, and I bring up this
topic a lot in the AI-relatedpodcast, in fact, susie Allegra,
one of my or my two-time guests.
She talks about the freedom tothink, not just because of human
rights, allowing digital law topermeate the new digital space,
(09:37):
but also we need that time tothink.
So I think if we are going tohave some of these menial tasks
cleaned up and accelerated by AI, we can then have those new
ideas and maybe there arecreative ways of solving a case,
or it can actually look atprecedents we hadn't thought
about, because we can't readevery piece of law that's ever
been written, but AI can and itsounds like it has.
Do you think there are areas oflegal practice that can't be
(10:00):
replaced by AI and will stillneed the dear old lawyer or
barrister or solicitor to be inthere?
Jaeger Glucina (10:06):
I do, but it's not so much practice areas or
particular specialisms withinthe legal practice that I think
can't be replaced by AI.
I think it's actually thatcreative, strategic side of
being a lawyer, but also theempathy and emotional
intelligence which actually allof the best lawyers have,
because they need to understandtheir clients, they need to know
what looks good for theirclients and then make a plan
(10:27):
around it, so they also need tobe able to tell a very, very
convincing story that plays onemotion, not just in front of a
jury and court, but in many,many different contexts.
Andrew Grill (10:38):
There's a recent case in the US where a new
lawyer cited a non-existent caselaw for in front of a judge.
I think he got a lot of trouble.
So should lawyers be usingjournalists AI platforms at all?
Jaeger Glucina (10:48):
I'm pretty sure every lawyer around the world
visibly wins when that storybroke and I'm also pretty sure
no one will be turning to chatto BT for case law in future.
But as with any sensitive orreally specialist subjects, you
just cannot rely solely ongeneralist AI.
It's just not their purpose tobe accurate in a legal matter
and, worse, they'll give ananswer for the sake of it,
(11:10):
whether right or wrong.
But going back to that wellread friend at the dinner party
or that very enthusiastic intern, you know, would you want them
as your lawyer?
Probably not right.
But I wouldn't hazard lawyerstotally against using generalist
AI platforms ever.
I mean sure they could help,you know, do better drafting or
quicker drafting of really basicthings like client engagement
(11:32):
letters.
They just shouldn't use it forthe important work at the end of
the day.
Andrew Grill (11:35):
So you've been with luminance from the early
years.
So how have you seen AItechnology evolve and also how
have you seen the legal industryembrace AI over this period?
Jaeger Glucina (11:44):
It's been really exciting to see the leaps
forward being made in the techspace.
Ai is now, you know, for thefirst time I think I mentioned
this earlier really in thepublic consciousness.
And that includes lawyers.
I've been, you know, workingwith them for many years and I
saw them at the very beginning,when I started at Luminance,
very resistant and skepticaltowards AI, very conservative.
(12:06):
But now there is a tangiblechange in that attitude.
They're actually quite excitedto use and embrace it, and I
think that is because they'veactually seen tangible benefits
for themselves and no longerfear that it's going to take
their jobs away.
I've had customers tell mepersonally that their eyes were
literally burning from reading100 page contracts every day
(12:27):
very boring contracts beforethey started using luminance to
help them with that.
But others are savingsignificant amounts of money
totally automating certain taskslike NDA review and also
leaving the office earlier atnight.
So at the end of the day, it'sthe results that will change
mindsets and that's where thedifference has been seen over
(12:47):
the past couple of years.
We have two customers that Icould speak about, actually,
because they're also very vocalabout this, and that's Koch
Industries and Hitachi.
Both have since using luminance, given total autonomy to non
legal teams maybe it'scommercial teams or even HR to
work on certain contract types.
That might sound like a smallthing, but NDA is often one of
(13:09):
the very biggest causes offriction and delay in businesses
getting deals done becausethere are just so many of them.
So removing that from the legalteam's remit can literally be
the thing that reduces a salescycle and gets deals done
quicker.
Andrew Grill (13:22):
I know that luminance focuses exclusively on
the legal industry and your LLMhas been trained for that, but
what other industry couldbenefit from your experience
with the legal industry inadopting business grade AI?
Jaeger Glucina (13:32):
To be honest, any business that deals with
contracts on a day to day basisand that's not even an industry
specific problem that'sessentially every company in the
world there are many variationsof the quote.
Andrew Grill (13:43):
Ai won't take a job, but someone who knows how
to use it will.
So how do we close the AIskills gap in the legal industry
and more broadly?
Jaeger Glucina (13:50):
I think what's great to see is that lawyers are
keener than ever to learn howto get the most out of AI
certainly from what I've seen,but I would like to see law
firms and businesses make themost of that while they can and
mandate the use of AI forcertain tasks where it makes
sense.
So that's what will forcelawyers to change habits,
something they're not known tobe particularly fond of.
(14:12):
Beyond the legal profession, Ithink reskilling is a method
that's going to be key tofuture-proofing workforces
already in technical fields likesoftware development, data
science, engineering.
Even Then, offering the staffthe opportunity to upskill
really fosters that environmentof continued learning, as well
as equipping team members withthe skills they need to ensure
(14:32):
that their business stayscompetitive in the face of what
is very rapid digitaltransformation right now and
then I think.
Finally, increasing capacityfor mass engineering and
technical education in schoolsis another way to help establish
strong fundamentals that canfoster an interest and
familiarity with technologieslike AI.
Company-sponsored AI innovationhubs and labs strategically
(14:55):
located near universities.
That could also provide anopportunity to tap into emerging
talent and provide more of thatspecialist training while
they're still in university oreven just recently graduated.
Andrew Grill (15:06):
Now touch before on the difference in the way
that lawyers are charging.
It's generally an hourly rate,so how might the use of AI
change the way lawyers and otherprofessional services firms
charge their clients, movingfrom this hourly rate to more of
a project fee, given some AItools such as yours can cut the
effort from hours to seconds.
Jaeger Glucina (15:22):
I've seen many forward-thinking law firms and
other professional servicesfirms change up their billing
models where offering atechnology-assisted service.
That was starting to happeneven six years ago.
So applying a fixed fee modelhelps them to pitch more
competitively for work and alsoretains the margins, which are,
of course, the important part,because they're able to complete
(15:44):
the work in a fraction of thetime.
The added bonus for the firmswho've been doing that and their
clients is that they're doingbetter quality work.
The reviews are more thorough,meaning advice is therefore more
informed and clients can makebetter decisions.
Happy clients, of course, equalrepeat business.
So I'd be surprised if more lawfirms didn't adopt that
charging methodology in future.
(16:05):
It will probably just take someof the bigger players adopting
that approach to create a bit ofa ripple effect across the
industry, but up until now it'sbeen mostly the small and
mid-sized firms who've beenearly adopters of that method,
because they have to compete.
What I think will really forcethe change is the fact that
in-house legal teams have nowstarted to adopt technology
(16:27):
faster than their external lawfirms.
So law firms are eventuallygoing to see less work come
their way, and that's probablywhat's going to be the biggest
incentive for them to rethinktheir strategy.
Andrew Grill (16:37):
So I'm sure if there are lawyers or legal
service support people listeningto this podcast right now,
they're going yeah, andrew, butthat will never work here.
So what are the barriers you'reseeing for lawyers adopting AI?
Jaeger Glucina (16:48):
There can be a perceived lack of trust in AI
and given recent events like thelawyer citing non-existent case
law, it's not really hard tosee why there is that lack of
trust.
But a lack of training,reskilling and strategy for the
technology when it's broughtinto a business also doesn't
help.
Lawyers need to be told what touse it for, when, why, how.
(17:12):
They won't just change theirhabits overnight.
The technology needs to beintegrated into everyday work
and, as with everything, resultsare what will keep them using
it.
So it's not always easy, Iguess, to assess which AI will
have the biggest impact on yourlegal team, especially when
there are so many technologiesout there today for porting to
(17:33):
be AI.
So for that reason we sort oftend to provide our shopping
list of key questions forbusiness leaders scouting the
market.
Those are three things for me.
So one, is the AI instantlydeployable, ie no lengthy setup
or training, so that lawyersdon't just get bored and give up
early?
The best way to flush this outearly is to ask that vendor or
(17:55):
product to set up a trial withina few hours.
Then you'll really see.
Second, can it learn any newpiece of information, any
concept, in any language, in anyjurisdiction, and can it do
that on the go without needingsomeone to come in and be paid
to train it?
And then three has it justslapped on an integration with
an app like ChatGPT and thencalled itself AI, or does it
(18:15):
have a heritage and foundationin true AI, with customers that
can attest to that?
Andrew Grill (18:20):
I want to touch on regulation, because what
ChatGPT did back in November2022 was it woke up the
regulators, the fact that thiscan actually do a lot of things
that they hadn't consideredbefore.
So where do you thinkregulation needs to play in the
role of adoption of AI in thelegal industry and more broadly?
Jaeger Glucina (18:37):
I think people think that it's quite
straightforward to regulate AIbecause they think AI makes
decisions in the same way that ahuman does.
But even the way that we makedecisions isn't actually very
explainable.
Have I asked you the simplequestion of why you had I don't
know what you had for breakfast,but why you had waffles for
breakfast this morning?
Would you be able to give me afully reasoned answer on it, or
(18:58):
was it just a case of felt likeit at the time?
So the reality, well, I'll letyou answer that, but the reality
is that people don't reallyknow how AI works, and AI
regulation should start withbringing in the people who are
actually experts in the field.
Ai in the legal industrypresents a pretty unique
(19:19):
challenge because of thesensitive nature of the work.
That's why we say legal grade,specialist AI is really
important.
Andrew Grill (19:27):
Digitally curious is a phrase I use a lot.
Actually, it's the title of myupcoming book.
So how can lawyers become moredigitally curious and, in turn,
more digitally literate?
Jaeger Glucina (19:35):
First of all, congratulations on your new book
.
I'll have to make sure I getone from the store.
And from my perspective,lawyers are becoming more
digitally curious.
One because the technology isbecoming more user-friendly and
effective, but two because theyare starting to have no choice.
So a great example is the datasubject access requests, or
(19:57):
DSARs as they're known to thelegal industry, which are
pouring in off the back of theGDPR.
No legal team could hope tocomplete a DSAR and be confident
that they'd caught everythingwithout the use of technology.
And then, when your business isfinancial and reputational
damage is potentially at play,the stakes just get higher.
Tesco is one business that usesluminance to complete DSARs,
(20:22):
and you can only imagine howmany the likes of NatWest and
Coots had over the past coupleof months.
One of the reasons we offer afree trial of our technology is
because it takes the pressureoff lawyers.
They can play around with thetech and they can get
comfortable at their own pace.
Over two weeks, Usually we findthey actually toss.
They love it very quickly, butthen so they're going to miss it
(20:42):
, while their businesses have togo through the usual
procurement steps to bring newtechnology in.
So that would be.
My feeling right now is justthat they are curious and we've
just got to capitalize on thatwhile we have the chance.
Andrew Grill (20:56):
You say that without an adequately prepared
workforce, the role out of AIhas the potential to stifle
innovation and limit businesses'ability to leverage technology.
What can we do now to prepare?
Jaeger Glucina (21:06):
To start with, there needs to be a broader
social education piece of workdone to familiarize people with
what AI is and how it will helpimprove their quality of life.
We don't need everyone toachieve a high level of
technical understanding.
That is totally unrealistic inmy view but we should teach
people to understand keyconcepts that underpin AI, like
(21:27):
probability and risk.
If the public were clued up onwhat AI can and can't do and the
different types of AI forexample, the difference between
narrow and general AI then theworkforce will generally become
more comfortable and informedwhen working alongside AI day to
day.
We should also make a reallyconcerted effort to encourage
(21:49):
underrepresented groups intoSTEM subjects.
There's a lot of research outthere supporting the idea that
diverse workforces achievebetter results, so that has the
potential to not only bolstertechnological innovation but
also address the current AItalent shortage.
That work could start at thegrassroots level, but with
increased investment into basicdigital skills programs and
(22:12):
venues like libraries that canprovide access to technology.
That's where you're going tomake a difference.
Then you can also, as abusiness, you could partner with
universities and researchinstitutions to set up AI
innovation labs.
That would allow the UK to bemore of a key driver of AI
innovation but also enablebusinesses to tap into the
emerging talent that is so greatin the UK and also provide that
(22:35):
really important specialisttraining early in the careers of
the people who are looking togo into those AI fields.
Andrew Grill (22:41):
So I want to go back to your own use of AI.
What was the first thing youasked ChatGPT, and do you use it
in your daily workflow?
Jaeger Glucina (22:48):
I actually used it to recommend to me the top
lead generation software, whichis something I was looking into
for our commercial team and, tobe honest, it is perfect for
things like that.
I got a great answer and I'venow selected a fantastic product
.
My job is definitely not legalthese days.
It's much more heavily centeredaround people.
(23:08):
So, to be honest, I don't findthat I use it that much day to
day.
I am always playing around withour chatbot asking me I ask it,
you know lots of differentcreative questions every day to
put it through its paces, and ithasn't yet disappointed me.
So we shall see.
Andrew Grill (23:23):
And how do you keep your own language models,
large language models, updated?
I mean laws changing all thetime, new cases are coming out.
How do you constantly make sureit's up to date and ready for
fit for purpose?
Jaeger Glucina (23:34):
Well, that happens organically by way of
our customer base.
So, you know, we have customersworking in 80 different
languages in 60 differentcountries, and you've got this
really lovely mix now of notjust law firms of all sizes but
also all of the big four and ahuge number of in-house legal
teams, everything from your oneperson legal team all the way
(23:55):
through to you know, your hugemanufacturer, and they buy by a
natural byproduct of just usingit, informing that large
language model every single day.
But we also have a team ofin-house analysts, of course,
who are making sure that all ofthat is very much accurate and
consistent.
So the two together is veryimportant.
Andrew Grill (24:16):
So I had Peter Voss on the podcast recently to
speak about general AI.
What's your view on this andare we likely to see any time
soon in the legal industry?
Jaeger Glucina (24:24):
For the past, 50 years or so, we've seen AI
being applied to very specifictasks.
That's called narrow AI.
So essentially, we've found oneproblem for the AI to solve
where we're using narrow AI, andthat results in applications
like chatbots, self-drivingvehicles, translation engines,
you name it.
In our case, the task is legaldocument processing.
(24:45):
Now, artificial generalintelligence is a much bigger
idea.
Here we're talking about asystem that can perform any task
that a human being can perform.
So that is definitely thedirection that we're heading in.
But for me, we're quite a fewyears, if not decades, off AGI,
and that's mainly because, ifyou look at the state of AI
(25:07):
research and funding right now,we're still not investing that
heavily into the pursuit of AGI,certainly not to the extent we
need if we're going to attain itanytime soon.
So for the time being, I thinknarrow AI applications are going
to be far more achievable andfar more profitable for
businesses.
Businesses aren't straying toofar outside the limits of what
their AI can actually do,because AI only has a certain
(25:29):
latitude to play with in orderto learn how to do a task.
When you start asking it to doother things, you'll typically
see performance on the first andprimary task go down.
So ultimately, my answer isthat AGI is where we're heading,
but it's nothing to be afraidof just yet.
The AI overlords are still alittle way off.
Plus, we have that veryinteresting question, which is
do we actually want to achieveAGI?
(25:51):
I'm sure we're going to seeplenty of debates over that in
the coming years.
Andrew Grill (25:56):
We're almost out of time.
We're up to my favourite partof the show, the Quick Fire
Round.
We learn more about our guestsiPhone or Android.
Jaeger Glucina (26:02):
Now it went for iPhone purely because of AirDrop
.
Android wins for camera Windowor aisle Isle.
I'm quite tall.
Andrew Grill (26:08):
In the room or in the metaverse, nothing beats in
the room.
Your biggest hope for this yearand next More automation.
I wish that AI could do all ofmy.
Jaeger Glucina (26:15):
Sleeping.
I would love to have more hoursin the day.
Andrew Grill (26:18):
The app you use most on your phone City Mapper.
What's the best advice you'veever received?
Jaeger Glucina (26:22):
Can't expect to learn everything on your own.
Seek out the wisdom of others.
What are you reading at themoment?
I'm reading the third book inthe Three Body Problem Trilogy,
which is titled Death's End, byLu Xixin.
Who should I invite next on thepodcast?
I think Sam Altman.
I'd be very interested to hearwhat he has to say about his
vision for open AI in the futureand the role that he's playing
(26:44):
in settling the AI regulatoryagenda.
Andrew Grill (26:46):
How do you want to be remembered?
Jaeger Glucina (26:48):
As someone who always gave 200%, whether that's
parenting, being a leader orbeing a core part of the AI
revolution for the legalprofession.
Andrew Grill (26:57):
As this is the actionable future, as podcast.
What three actionable thingsshould our audience do today to
prepare for a world ofbusiness-grade AI, or what I
call enterprise GPT?
Jaeger Glucina (27:07):
First, be curious whether that's getting
your hands on chat, gpt orAdobe's generative AI or
co-pilot, which is coming soon,or a more specific enterprise
solution.
Don't be afraid to simply giveAI a go, a test and learn.
Strategy puts curiosity intoaction.
Once you get experimenting,you'll become much more
comfortable with the idea of AI,what it can do and how it can
(27:30):
help your business.
Second, learn to recognize realintelligence.
So, carrying on from the lastpoint, once you start using AI
and learn what it can do, youalso learn what it can't do.
So it's probably going to becomea bit of a tired saying, but
not all AI is actuallyintelligent.
So, as it becomes increasinglyembedded in our lives, products
(27:52):
purporting to be AI are going tocapitalize on a lack of AI
savviness amongst consumers.
If you learn what reallyconstitutes intelligence early
on, that's what will mitigatethe risk when you're purchasing
software or something similarfor your business.
And then my final point, numberthree, embrace automation.
Nearly every job and workflowcan be improved by some degree
(28:16):
by automation, and that is notsomething to be feared.
So find the parts of yourworkflow or your day-to-day life
that can be streamlined andrecognize the area of your work
that could benefit from moretime back and more resource.
Automation really can be apositive catalyst for business
change.
Andrew Grill (28:36):
Three very actionable tips there.
Jager a fascinating discussion.
How can we find out more aboutyou and your work?
Jaeger Glucina (28:42):
Actually, I still give demos, so get in
touch.
I'm on LinkedIn, send me anemail and I'd be happy to meet
up, or come to our website andyou'll get to see a little
snapshot of what we do.
Andrew Grill (28:52):
Thank you so much for your time.
Intro (28:53):
Thank you Until next time .
(29:26):
This has been the actionablefuturist podcast.
Welcome to the Actionable Futurist podcast, a show all
about the near-term future, withpractical and actionable advice
from a range of global expertsto help you stay ahead of the
curve.
Every episode answers thequestion what's the future on,
with voices and opinions thatneed to be heard.
(00:23):
Your host is internationalkeynote speaker and Actionable
Futurist, andrew Grill.
Andrew Grill (00:30):
Not surprisingly, the latest Gardner hype cycle
for AI puts generative AI atpeak hype.
Even my parents in Australiaare talking about it.
So how do you cut through allthis chat GPT hype, particularly
when it comes to the context ofprofessional services?
To address these issues andmore, my guest is Jaeger Glucina
, the Chief of Staff at WorldLeading AI Company Luminance
Welcome, Jaeger.
Jaeger Glucina (00:51):
Hello, thank you very much for having me, Andrew
.
Andrew Grill (00:53):
For those of us that haven't heard about
luminance what does luminance doand what problem do you solve?
Jaeger Glucina (00:58):
Luminance is an AI which really revolutionizes
how lawyers work and I know thatis a word that is majorly
overused revolutionized but itquite literally reads a whole
contract, works out the riskyparts, which bits a lawyer needs
to think about, and can evenread draft a contract with a
simple prompt from you.
It combines generative withanalytical AI to do something
(01:21):
very difficult that no one elsehas really managed to achieve,
because actually AI is anincredibly hard thing to do.
What gives us a major advantageis the fact that it's been
trained and validated by the toplaw firms in the world.
So this is AI that performsspecialist legal analysis and
that is a radical change in howlawyers are going about their
work today.
If you think about it, thereare people in every office and
(01:44):
every building in the worlddealing with contracts every day
whose lives would bedramatically improved if they
had this technology.
We have customers in 60countries using Luminance to
augment and automate big partsof their daily work, like
drafting and negotiatingcontracts, which is really key
to alleviating the burden thatlawyers are shouldering.
So Koch Industries, lamborghini, yokogawa, Hitachi and Liberty
(02:06):
Mutual are just a few of thebusinesses using us right now.
Andrew Grill (02:09):
What's the difference between generalist AI
platforms such as ChatGPT andspecialist AI platforms such as
yours, and what are the benefitsof each?
Don't get me wrong.
Jaeger Glucina (02:18):
Chatgpt is an incredible development in the
field of AI.
It's brought AI into the publicconsciousness, I think for the
first time properly in many,many years, and it can do really
interesting things.
So many interesting things, buttwo very basic examples it can
write a jingle for an ad or evenwrite a pretty decent sounding
poem.
I know we've all experimentedwith that, but it's generally
(02:41):
and I emphasize the wordgenerally here quite useful at
doing very generalist things.
So I like to describe it asthat person we've all sat next
to at a dinner party who seemsto know something about
everything and they're totallyconvincing.
They've got the whole tablehanging on their every word.
But afterwards, when you leavethe party, you think to yourself
hmm, I actually think thatmight have been a load of
(03:01):
garbage.
So that's essentially whatChatGPT is aiming to do.
It's aiming to give an answerat all costs, without a thought
for accuracy.
Numerous is quite different tothat.
The reason being is that overthe past few years our team has
been at the forefront ofspecialist legal large language
models or LLMs as we all knowthem now and we've been working
with some of the world's top lawfirms and in-house legal teams
(03:23):
to get a really big head startand we've been able to, as a
result, develop an AI which isan actual legal expert.
Andrew Grill (03:31):
I have an alternate view of how to
describe ChatGPT.
I liken it to an enthusiastic,always on intern and, just like
your dinner party guests, theywould go off and research things
.
They would be very enthusiastic, they'd come back with some of
the answer but, as you know,you'd always have to check their
work.
You would never give anintern's work to a client
directly or publish it online.
So, dinner party guest whoknows a lot about everything, or
(03:54):
enthusiastic intern, I wonderif they were both at the same
dinner party what answers wouldget?
Jaeger Glucina (04:00):
That's the question.
Andrew Grill (04:01):
So you started your career as a barrister and
solicitor in New Zealandrepresenting earthquake victims
against insurance companies.
So could you explain yourjourney from New Zealand to the
world of AI in Cambridge?
Jaeger Glucina (04:12):
I started my professional career in what I
personally found was a veryrewarding field of law.
Others might call it boring,but I'm very grateful for the
experience that gave me and thefact that I was able to do some
good for my clients.
A lot of my time, as you canprobably imagine, during that
role was entrenched in discoverywork, which is essentially
reviewing every document, email,report, text, anything really
(04:33):
that could be relevant to acourt case, and we're talking
the days of physical filing andprinting of literally everything
.
Most of that's now moved todigital, but I experienced
firsthand some of the realchallenges that still face
lawyers today.
It's the sheer volume.
So we all know that data isgrowing every day.
We're producing moreinformation and content than
ever and it's only going to keepgetting bigger.
(04:55):
But you know, what's notchanging is the deadlines set by
clients and by the courts.
If anything, they're gettingshorter.
So burnout is a real thing inthe legal profession.
But my experiences early in lawhighlighted how the quality of
my work and my work-life balancecould be improved by technology
which could automate legaltasks.
(05:16):
Tech like that didn't reallyexist at the time, or they're in
their very early years andhadn't made their way to New
Zealand?
That's probably more likely.
So when I moved to Londonshortly afterwards, I spent a
year in-house at another techstartup, where much of my
day-to-day job consisted ofgenerating and reviewing
contracts and submittingcompanies house filings for our
customers.
Like many startups, thatcompany didn't make it, but I'd
(05:38):
been looking into legal tech andhad come across something that
sounded very exciting.
It was a new AI product whichwas set to change the game for
M&A legal due diligence.
I'd been burned before bystartups, obviously, but I did
some pretty thorough researchand it quickly became quite
clear to me that this was reallysomething that had the
potential to change the futureof the profession.
(05:59):
That was Luminance, of course,and that's where my introduction
to AI started six years ago.
Andrew Grill (06:04):
You said it's skilled, specialist, legal grade
.
Ai is the future of business,but what does this mean in
practice?
Jaeger Glucina (06:10):
Well, luminance employs a large language model
LLM, as we've established.
The key difference from otherLLMs is that Luminance has been
purpose-built from inception forlegal, specific applications.
We talked a little bit aboutthat.
We were founded in 2015, sosince then, the AI has had the
chance to have a few years to beinformed by over 150 million
(06:31):
verified legal documents, whichis very different to any old
document that's been scrapedfrom the internet.
It's that exposure to the vastnumbers of specific legal
documents, combined with ourcore proprietary AI deep domain
knowledge and constant use andclassification by the top legal
users all over the world.
That means it is now that mostadvanced legal LLM and therefore
(06:54):
the most reliable, which is theimportant part.
That's where the limitations ofDPT and other generalist AI
chatbots begin.
They're not fit for purpose invery specialist fields.
Take medicine, manufacturing,engineering.
All of these require that samelevel of deep domain knowledge
that legal does.
It's important that the AIbeing used in those fields is
(07:15):
able to adapt to and learn thenuanced ways in which those
industries do business and makedecisions.
Anything less than that has thepotential to do more harm than
good.
Andrew Grill (07:24):
So I do a lot of work with legal clients and they
all want to know about AI.
I've spent many an hour or twotalking to law firms and their
clients.
They're all a bit worried aboutAI because if you charge by the
hour and AI can do things inmilliseconds, this will disrupt
things.
So how do you think AI willdisrupt the role of a lawyer
both now and in five years time?
Jaeger Glucina (07:45):
Great question.
A lot of lawyers have and thisis in my experience been
historically quite worried aboutand to an extent, some still
are the AI overlord coming totake over some time in the near
future and, among other veryscary things, putting everyone
out of a job.
My response to that is that westill need a bit of an injection
of reality.
(08:05):
There has been a fundamentalshift in the way people are
looking at and using AI rightnow, mostly thanks to tools like
chat, TBT and co-pilot, but weare still a way off AI truly
replicating human thought andbehavior, even though the chat
box out there sounding prettyconversational these days.
What we've focused on atLuminance is a more narrow
application of AI, which isdesigned to change the way that
(08:27):
people work, make decisions andultimately live their lives.
So what do I think things willlook like for lawyers in five
years time?
If you think about it, so muchof a lawyer's day-to-day work
could be automated.
I'm not talking about thereally complex work, but the
filing, the large-scale documentreview, due diligence, data
subject access requests off theback of GDPR drafting and
(08:49):
reviewing low risk butincredibly repetitive contracts
like NDAs.
If all of that work wasautomated which I believe it
easily, will be in the next fiveyears, because the technology
is already there now.
Lawyers would get a huge chunkof their day back for creative
thinking.
So having time to think is whenpeople start to come up with
new ideas, which is ultimatelywhat will take society to the
(09:11):
next level, and that's what Ibelieve will call the AI
revolution.
Andrew Grill (09:15):
I'm glad you mentioned critical thinking,
because I think that's a skill alot of school leavers aren't
taught and we'll have more timeto think, and I bring up this
topic a lot in the AI-relatedpodcast, in fact, susie Allegra,
one of my or my two-time guests.
She talks about the freedom tothink, not just because of human
rights, allowing digital law topermeate the new digital space,
(09:37):
but also we need that time tothink.
So I think if we are going tohave some of these menial tasks
cleaned up and accelerated by AI, we can then have those new
ideas and maybe there arecreative ways of solving a case,
or it can actually look atprecedents we hadn't thought
about, because we can't readevery piece of law that's ever
been written, but AI can and itsounds like it has.
Do you think there are areas oflegal practice that can't be
(10:00):
replaced by AI and will stillneed the dear old lawyer or
barrister or solicitor to be inthere?
Jaeger Glucina (10:06):
I do, but it's not so much practice areas or
particular specialisms withinthe legal practice that I think
can't be replaced by AI.
I think it's actually thatcreative, strategic side of
being a lawyer, but also theempathy and emotional
intelligence which actually allof the best lawyers have,
because they need to understandtheir clients, they need to know
what looks good for theirclients and then make a plan
(10:27):
around it, so they also need tobe able to tell a very, very
convincing story that plays onemotion, not just in front of a
jury and court, but in many,many different contexts.
Andrew Grill (10:38):
There's a recent case in the US where a new
lawyer cited a non-existent caselaw for in front of a judge.
I think he got a lot of trouble.
So should lawyers be usingjournalists AI platforms at all?
Jaeger Glucina (10:48):
I'm pretty sure every lawyer around the world
visibly wins when that storybroke and I'm also pretty sure
no one will be turning to chatto BT for case law in future.
But as with any sensitive orreally specialist subjects, you
just cannot rely solely ongeneralist AI.
It's just not their purpose tobe accurate in a legal matter
and, worse, they'll give ananswer for the sake of it,
(11:10):
whether right or wrong.
But going back to that wellread friend at the dinner party
or that very enthusiastic intern, you know, would you want them
as your lawyer?
Probably not right.
But I wouldn't hazard lawyerstotally against using generalist
AI platforms ever.
I mean sure they could help,you know, do better drafting or
quicker drafting of really basicthings like client engagement
(11:32):
letters.
They just shouldn't use it forthe important work at the end of
the day.
Andrew Grill (11:35):
So you've been with luminance from the early
years.
So how have you seen AItechnology evolve and also how
have you seen the legal industryembrace AI over this period?
Jaeger Glucina (11:44):
It's been really exciting to see the leaps
forward being made in the techspace.
Ai is now, you know, for thefirst time I think I mentioned
this earlier really in thepublic consciousness.
And that includes lawyers.
I've been, you know, workingwith them for many years and I
saw them at the very beginning,when I started at Luminance,
very resistant and skepticaltowards AI, very conservative.
(12:06):
But now there is a tangiblechange in that attitude.
They're actually quite excitedto use and embrace it, and I
think that is because they'veactually seen tangible benefits
for themselves and no longerfear that it's going to take
their jobs away.
I've had customers tell mepersonally that their eyes were
literally burning from reading100 page contracts every day
(12:27):
very boring contracts beforethey started using luminance to
help them with that.
But others are savingsignificant amounts of money
totally automating certain taskslike NDA review and also
leaving the office earlier atnight.
So at the end of the day, it'sthe results that will change
mindsets and that's where thedifference has been seen over
(12:47):
the past couple of years.
We have two customers that Icould speak about, actually,
because they're also very vocalabout this, and that's Koch
Industries and Hitachi.
Both have since using luminance, given total autonomy to non
legal teams maybe it'scommercial teams or even HR to
work on certain contract types.
That might sound like a smallthing, but NDA is often one of
(13:09):
the very biggest causes offriction and delay in businesses
getting deals done becausethere are just so many of them.
So removing that from the legalteam's remit can literally be
the thing that reduces a salescycle and gets deals done
quicker.
Andrew Grill (13:22):
I know that luminance focuses exclusively on
the legal industry and your LLMhas been trained for that, but
what other industry couldbenefit from your experience
with the legal industry inadopting business grade AI?
Jaeger Glucina (13:32):
To be honest, any business that deals with
contracts on a day to day basisand that's not even an industry
specific problem that'sessentially every company in the
world there are many variationsof the quote.
Andrew Grill (13:43):
Ai won't take a job, but someone who knows how
to use it will.
So how do we close the AIskills gap in the legal industry
and more broadly?
Jaeger Glucina (13:50):
I think what's great to see is that lawyers are
keener than ever to learn howto get the most out of AI
certainly from what I've seen,but I would like to see law
firms and businesses make themost of that while they can and
mandate the use of AI forcertain tasks where it makes
sense.
So that's what will forcelawyers to change habits,
something they're not known tobe particularly fond of.
(14:12):
Beyond the legal profession, Ithink reskilling is a method
that's going to be key tofuture-proofing workforces
already in technical fields likesoftware development, data
science, engineering.
Even Then, offering the staffthe opportunity to upskill
really fosters that environmentof continued learning, as well
as equipping team members withthe skills they need to ensure
(14:32):
that their business stayscompetitive in the face of what
is very rapid digitaltransformation right now and
then I think.
Finally, increasing capacityfor mass engineering and
technical education in schoolsis another way to help establish
strong fundamentals that canfoster an interest and
familiarity with technologieslike AI.
Company-sponsored AI innovationhubs and labs strategically
(14:55):
located near universities.
That could also provide anopportunity to tap into emerging
talent and provide more of thatspecialist training while
they're still in university oreven just recently graduated.
Andrew Grill (15:06):
Now touch before on the difference in the way
that lawyers are charging.
It's generally an hourly rate,so how might the use of AI
change the way lawyers and otherprofessional services firms
charge their clients, movingfrom this hourly rate to more of
a project fee, given some AItools such as yours can cut the
effort from hours to seconds.
Jaeger Glucina (15:22):
I've seen many forward-thinking law firms and
other professional servicesfirms change up their billing
models where offering atechnology-assisted service.
That was starting to happeneven six years ago.
So applying a fixed fee modelhelps them to pitch more
competitively for work and alsoretains the margins, which are,
of course, the important part,because they're able to complete
(15:44):
the work in a fraction of thetime.
The added bonus for the firmswho've been doing that and their
clients is that they're doingbetter quality work.
The reviews are more thorough,meaning advice is therefore more
informed and clients can makebetter decisions.
Happy clients, of course, equalrepeat business.
So I'd be surprised if more lawfirms didn't adopt that
charging methodology in future.
(16:05):
It will probably just take someof the bigger players adopting
that approach to create a bit ofa ripple effect across the
industry, but up until now it'sbeen mostly the small and
mid-sized firms who've beenearly adopters of that method,
because they have to compete.
What I think will really forcethe change is the fact that
in-house legal teams have nowstarted to adopt technology
(16:27):
faster than their external lawfirms.
So law firms are eventuallygoing to see less work come
their way, and that's probablywhat's going to be the biggest
incentive for them to rethinktheir strategy.
Andrew Grill (16:37):
So I'm sure if there are lawyers or legal
service support people listeningto this podcast right now,
they're going yeah, andrew, butthat will never work here.
So what are the barriers you'reseeing for lawyers adopting AI?
Jaeger Glucina (16:48):
There can be a perceived lack of trust in AI
and given recent events like thelawyer citing non-existent case
law, it's not really hard tosee why there is that lack of
trust.
But a lack of training,reskilling and strategy for the
technology when it's broughtinto a business also doesn't
help.
Lawyers need to be told what touse it for, when, why, how.
(17:12):
They won't just change theirhabits overnight.
The technology needs to beintegrated into everyday work
and, as with everything, resultsare what will keep them using
it.
So it's not always easy, Iguess, to assess which AI will
have the biggest impact on yourlegal team, especially when
there are so many technologiesout there today for porting to
(17:33):
be AI.
So for that reason we sort oftend to provide our shopping
list of key questions forbusiness leaders scouting the
market.
Those are three things for me.
So one, is the AI instantlydeployable, ie no lengthy setup
or training, so that lawyersdon't just get bored and give up
early?
The best way to flush this outearly is to ask that vendor or
(17:55):
product to set up a trial withina few hours.
Then you'll really see.
Second, can it learn any newpiece of information, any
concept, in any language, in anyjurisdiction, and can it do
that on the go without needingsomeone to come in and be paid
to train it?
And then three has it justslapped on an integration with
an app like ChatGPT and thencalled itself AI, or does it
(18:15):
have a heritage and foundationin true AI, with customers that
can attest to that?
Andrew Grill (18:20):
I want to touch on regulation, because what
ChatGPT did back in November2022 was it woke up the
regulators, the fact that thiscan actually do a lot of things
that they hadn't consideredbefore.
So where do you thinkregulation needs to play in the
role of adoption of AI in thelegal industry and more broadly?
Jaeger Glucina (18:37):
I think people think that it's quite
straightforward to regulate AIbecause they think AI makes
decisions in the same way that ahuman does.
But even the way that we makedecisions isn't actually very
explainable.
Have I asked you the simplequestion of why you had I don't
know what you had for breakfast,but why you had waffles for
breakfast this morning?
Would you be able to give me afully reasoned answer on it, or
(18:58):
was it just a case of felt likeit at the time?
So the reality, well, I'll letyou answer that, but the reality
is that people don't reallyknow how AI works, and AI
regulation should start withbringing in the people who are
actually experts in the field.
Ai in the legal industrypresents a pretty unique
(19:19):
challenge because of thesensitive nature of the work.
That's why we say legal grade,specialist AI is really
important.
Andrew Grill (19:27):
Digitally curious is a phrase I use a lot.
Actually, it's the title of myupcoming book.
So how can lawyers become moredigitally curious and, in turn,
more digitally literate?
Jaeger Glucina (19:35):
First of all, congratulations on your new book
.
I'll have to make sure I getone from the store.
And from my perspective,lawyers are becoming more
digitally curious.
One because the technology isbecoming more user-friendly and
effective, but two because theyare starting to have no choice.
So a great example is the datasubject access requests, or
(19:57):
DSARs as they're known to thelegal industry, which are
pouring in off the back of theGDPR.
No legal team could hope tocomplete a DSAR and be confident
that they'd caught everythingwithout the use of technology.
And then, when your business isfinancial and reputational
damage is potentially at play,the stakes just get higher.
Tesco is one business that usesluminance to complete DSARs,
(20:22):
and you can only imagine howmany the likes of NatWest and
Coots had over the past coupleof months.
One of the reasons we offer afree trial of our technology is
because it takes the pressureoff lawyers.
They can play around with thetech and they can get
comfortable at their own pace.
Over two weeks, Usually we findthey actually toss.
They love it very quickly, butthen so they're going to miss it
(20:42):
, while their businesses have togo through the usual
procurement steps to bring newtechnology in.
So that would be.
My feeling right now is justthat they are curious and we've
just got to capitalize on thatwhile we have the chance.
Andrew Grill (20:56):
You say that without an adequately prepared
workforce, the role out of AIhas the potential to stifle
innovation and limit businesses'ability to leverage technology.
What can we do now to prepare?
Jaeger Glucina (21:06):
To start with, there needs to be a broader
social education piece of workdone to familiarize people with
what AI is and how it will helpimprove their quality of life.
We don't need everyone toachieve a high level of
technical understanding.
That is totally unrealistic inmy view but we should teach
people to understand keyconcepts that underpin AI, like
(21:27):
probability and risk.
If the public were clued up onwhat AI can and can't do and the
different types of AI forexample, the difference between
narrow and general AI then theworkforce will generally become
more comfortable and informedwhen working alongside AI day to
day.
We should also make a reallyconcerted effort to encourage
(21:49):
underrepresented groups intoSTEM subjects.
There's a lot of research outthere supporting the idea that
diverse workforces achievebetter results, so that has the
potential to not only bolstertechnological innovation but
also address the current AItalent shortage.
That work could start at thegrassroots level, but with
increased investment into basicdigital skills programs and
(22:12):
venues like libraries that canprovide access to technology.
That's where you're going tomake a difference.
Then you can also, as abusiness, you could partner with
universities and researchinstitutions to set up AI
innovation labs.
That would allow the UK to bemore of a key driver of AI
innovation but also enablebusinesses to tap into the
emerging talent that is so greatin the UK and also provide that
(22:35):
really important specialisttraining early in the careers of
the people who are looking togo into those AI fields.
Andrew Grill (22:41):
So I want to go back to your own use of AI.
What was the first thing youasked ChatGPT, and do you use it
in your daily workflow?
Jaeger Glucina (22:48):
I actually used it to recommend to me the top
lead generation software, whichis something I was looking into
for our commercial team and, tobe honest, it is perfect for
things like that.
I got a great answer and I'venow selected a fantastic product
.
My job is definitely not legalthese days.
It's much more heavily centeredaround people.
(23:08):
So, to be honest, I don't findthat I use it that much day to
day.
I am always playing around withour chatbot asking me I ask it,
you know lots of differentcreative questions every day to
put it through its paces, and ithasn't yet disappointed me.
So we shall see.
Andrew Grill (23:23):
And how do you keep your own language models,
large language models, updated?
I mean laws changing all thetime, new cases are coming out.
How do you constantly make sureit's up to date and ready for
fit for purpose?
Jaeger Glucina (23:34):
Well, that happens organically by way of
our customer base.
So, you know, we have customersworking in 80 different
languages in 60 differentcountries, and you've got this
really lovely mix now of notjust law firms of all sizes but
also all of the big four and ahuge number of in-house legal
teams, everything from your oneperson legal team all the way
(23:55):
through to you know, your hugemanufacturer, and they buy by a
natural byproduct of just usingit, informing that large
language model every single day.
But we also have a team ofin-house analysts, of course,
who are making sure that all ofthat is very much accurate and
consistent.
So the two together is veryimportant.
Andrew Grill (24:16):
So I had Peter Voss on the podcast recently to
speak about general AI.
What's your view on this andare we likely to see any time
soon in the legal industry?
Jaeger Glucina (24:24):
For the past, 50 years or so, we've seen AI
being applied to very specifictasks.
That's called narrow AI.
So essentially, we've found oneproblem for the AI to solve
where we're using narrow AI, andthat results in applications
like chatbots, self-drivingvehicles, translation engines,
you name it.
In our case, the task is legaldocument processing.
(24:45):
Now, artificial generalintelligence is a much bigger
idea.
Here we're talking about asystem that can perform any task
that a human being can perform.
So that is definitely thedirection that we're heading in.
But for me, we're quite a fewyears, if not decades, off AGI,
and that's mainly because, ifyou look at the state of AI
(25:07):
research and funding right now,we're still not investing that
heavily into the pursuit of AGI,certainly not to the extent we
need if we're going to attain itanytime soon.
So for the time being, I thinknarrow AI applications are going
to be far more achievable andfar more profitable for
businesses.
Businesses aren't straying toofar outside the limits of what
their AI can actually do,because AI only has a certain
(25:29):
latitude to play with in orderto learn how to do a task.
When you start asking it to doother things, you'll typically
see performance on the first andprimary task go down.
So ultimately, my answer isthat AGI is where we're heading,
but it's nothing to be afraidof just yet.
The AI overlords are still alittle way off.
Plus, we have that veryinteresting question, which is
do we actually want to achieveAGI?
(25:51):
I'm sure we're going to seeplenty of debates over that in
the coming years.
Andrew Grill (25:56):
We're almost out of time.
We're up to my favourite partof the show, the Quick Fire
Round.
We learn more about our guestsiPhone or Android.
Jaeger Glucina (26:02):
Now it went for iPhone purely because of AirDrop
.
Android wins for camera Windowor aisle Isle.
I'm quite tall.
Andrew Grill (26:08):
In the room or in the metaverse, nothing beats in
the room.
Your biggest hope for this yearand next More automation.
I wish that AI could do all ofmy.
Jaeger Glucina (26:15):
Sleeping.
I would love to have more hoursin the day.
Andrew Grill (26:18):
The app you use most on your phone City Mapper.
What's the best advice you'veever received?
Jaeger Glucina (26:22):
Can't expect to learn everything on your own.
Seek out the wisdom of others.
What are you reading at themoment?
I'm reading the third book inthe Three Body Problem Trilogy,
which is titled Death's End, byLu Xixin.
Who should I invite next on thepodcast?
I think Sam Altman.
I'd be very interested to hearwhat he has to say about his
vision for open AI in the futureand the role that he's playing
(26:44):
in settling the AI regulatoryagenda.
Andrew Grill (26:46):
How do you want to be remembered?
Jaeger Glucina (26:48):
As someone who always gave 200%, whether that's
parenting, being a leader orbeing a core part of the AI
revolution for the legalprofession.
Andrew Grill (26:57):
As this is the actionable future, as podcast.
What three actionable thingsshould our audience do today to
prepare for a world ofbusiness-grade AI, or what I
call enterprise GPT?
Jaeger Glucina (27:07):
First, be curious whether that's getting
your hands on chat, gpt orAdobe's generative AI or
co-pilot, which is coming soon,or a more specific enterprise
solution.
Don't be afraid to simply giveAI a go, a test and learn.
Strategy puts curiosity intoaction.
Once you get experimenting,you'll become much more
comfortable with the idea of AI,what it can do and how it can
(27:30):
help your business.
Second, learn to recognize realintelligence.
So, carrying on from the lastpoint, once you start using AI
and learn what it can do, youalso learn what it can't do.
So it's probably going to becomea bit of a tired saying, but
not all AI is actuallyintelligent.
So, as it becomes increasinglyembedded in our lives, products
(27:52):
purporting to be AI are going tocapitalize on a lack of AI
savviness amongst consumers.
If you learn what reallyconstitutes intelligence early
on, that's what will mitigatethe risk when you're purchasing
software or something similarfor your business.
And then my final point, numberthree, embrace automation.
Nearly every job and workflowcan be improved by some degree
(28:16):
by automation, and that is notsomething to be feared.
So find the parts of yourworkflow or your day-to-day life
that can be streamlined andrecognize the area of your work
that could benefit from moretime back and more resource.
Automation really can be apositive catalyst for business
change.
Andrew Grill (28:36):
Three very actionable tips there.
Jager a fascinating discussion.
How can we find out more aboutyou and your work?
Jaeger Glucina (28:42):
Actually, I still give demos, so get in
touch.
I'm on LinkedIn, send me anemail and I'd be happy to meet
up, or come to our website andyou'll get to see a little
snapshot of what we do.
Andrew Grill (28:52):
Thank you so much for your time.
Intro (28:53):
Thank you Until next time .
(29:26):
This has been the actionablefuturist podcast.
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