Pastor Rod Parsley, Pastor Greg Locke, Spiritual Authority, What you need to know and what our stance should be. (Part 1)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, ladies and gentlemen, there's a whole lot
going on in the world right now.
I mean, just take a look at theallegations of what's happening
with Pastor Rod Parsley andPastor Greg Locke and listen.
There has been a subject thatGod has lit up in my heart.
Just for you, you're not goingto want to mistake I'm going to
be talking about spiritual abuseversus spiritual authority.

(00:25):
If you want to put it the otherway around, spiritual authority
versus spiritual abuse.
So many people have abused iton both parties.
I've got a whole lot to saytoday.
I'm glad that you've tuned in.
It's going to be off the chain,stick around, because we're
going to be going deep intodimensions.
I know it's been a little whilesince you've seen me, but I'm
back, baby, and I'm so excited.
Spiritual dimensions I knowit's been a little while since

(00:53):
you've seen me, but I'm back,baby, and I'm so excited.
Spiritual authority versusspiritual abuse what's the
difference Coming up next ondimensions.
Well, ladies and gentlemen, Iam so excited that you have
tuned in.
It is going to be a special,special day today.
And listen, I'm glad that youare here.
It has been a little whilesince I've been on with you.

(01:14):
I've been away.
I've been doing a lot ofdifferent things, but I am back
and I am so excited that you aretuning in right now.
So, listen, I need you to takea minute right now and I need
you to go and like, subscribe,follow, share, do all those
things that we do on media.
Go ahead and do that right nowand come on and be a part of
what I'm getting ready to share.
Listen, there's going to be alot of people that are going to

(01:35):
be blessed by this.
I promise you you are not goingto be disappointed with what
I'm about to share with youtoday.
If you've never gone to ourpodcast store and gone there and
downloaded our Dimensions app,please do so now.
Listen, there's already manyepisodes on there and I've got a
whole lot more coming to you.
I'm going to be coming to you awhole lot more than I have been

(01:55):
in the past.
I'm sorry that I haven't beenas diligent to get as many out.
I've been traveling, been doingdifferent things, but I'm back
and I am so excited to besharing this with you today, and
so take a minute right now,just share this.
I promise you in advance you aregoing to be blessed by what I'm
about to share with you today.

(02:16):
I'm telling you right now it isgoing to be off the chain.
You are going to be blessed.
You're going to hear somerevelation that maybe you've
never even heard before.
That's going to be brand new toyou.
That, I believe, is reallygoing to be blessed.
You're going to hear somerevelation that maybe you've
never even heard before.
That's going to be brand new toyou.
That, I believe, is reallygoing to be a blessing to you
that I think God is really goingto blow your mind with.
So take a minute right now.
Like, subscribe, follow, share.

(02:36):
If you haven't gotten thedimensions podcast download, go
and do it.
You'll be able to stay up todate on everything that's coming
up and what's happening as weare going.
So it's going to be really,really good.
I'm excited about it and I wantyou to grab your Bibles, because
today I want to take some timeand I want to talk to you all

(02:57):
about some things that arehappening.
I'm sure you've seen in thenews there the things that have
gone on with Pastor Rod Parsleyand what's happening.
I want everybody to realizeright from the jump this isn't
going to be a bash on him.
I'm not going to bash him orget on him for what he has done,
or beat him up or anyone elsewhenever I come on, but my
desire is to always give aperspective and an understanding

(03:19):
to what has happened and whatis going on, and what I'm about
to share with you.
There are many of you watchingright now that have been victims
of spiritual abuse.
Spiritual authority has beenhung over your head, been used
as a weapon, you've been abusedby it, and there may be some
that are watching as well,because, see, there's two sides

(03:40):
to every pancake.
So of course, there are thingsthat people in leadership have
done wrong, but then there areothers that have done wrong as
well.
There are people in thecongregant side, those that are
following, that don't understand.
They may be in spiritualrebellion and not know it.
Now have people abusedspiritual authority and called
it rebellion, when really it iscontrol, of course.
That's why I'm going to getinto this.

(04:00):
I want to give you today aspiritual understanding of what
spiritual authority really isfrom a biblical perspective.
Not just a commentary, butscriptures to back it.
How are pastors supposed togovern their churches?
How are church people supposedto be led by pastors?

(04:23):
What do we do when we don'tagree with our pastor?
What do we do when we don'tagree with our pastor?
What do we do when we don't seeeye to eye?
When do I have a right to getin there and flex to some degree
if you give me the leverage ofthat word and when should I just
go with the flow?
How do I handle it, even if mypastor is biblically in error?

(04:43):
What do I do?
Listen, you got to check thisout.
This is going to be so good.
You are going to be so blessedby what I'm about to share with
you and I want to do a littlemore teaching than I normally
would, but I believe this isreally going to speak to you and
it's really going to ministerto you.
So listen, take a minute rightnow and just go like follow,

(05:03):
subscribe, share.
Take a minute and go ahead andlet everybody know that I'm on
the air right now.
Live with you and I've got somepowerful things I'm going to be
sharing with y'all.
This is going to be so good.
I'm telling you right nowbecause I believe it's apropos
for what we're facing.
I'm sure many of you have seenthe videos and the audio tapes

(05:25):
that have leaked out from PastorRod Parsley's camp.
I went to school there.
Love that man forever.
We'll love that man.
I mean, he was such a blessingto me.
I'm where I am today because ofthe anointing that I received
from that house.
But I want to talk for a moment, though Let me also mention
this too.
For a moment, though, let mealso mention this too.

(05:46):
Then you have pastor Greg Lockeout there just bashing pastors
for what they've done and thingsalong that line, and we're
taking a look at what'shappening there.
Well, what do we do?
How do we handle that?
And that's why I wanted to talkto you today about spiritual
authority versus spiritual abuse.
And listen, I guarantee thereare several, several of you that
have been under spiritual abusebefore.
There are pastors that may bewatching they would be operating

(06:08):
in spiritual abuse and don'teven know it.
But then I also believe thatthere are people that have been
operating in rebellion againstauthority and don't even realize
that they're doing it.
Or there may be some that knowthat they're doing it.
Today it's going to come acrossthe way like God saying you
better leave my anointed alone,because many times we take a
look at these things.
There has been so much abuse inthe kingdom of God that what

(06:29):
happens?
People were never called to beoppressed, and so whenever
oppression comes into people'slives, revolt happens.
As a result, there's a revoltand there can be a revolt, and
then there can also be rebellionthat comes as a result.
So we don't just do.
What we do is we throw allspiritual authority.
I'm not going to listen toanybody.
I'm going to say what I want,do what I want, operate, however
, I want.
What we need to do is getedumacated, ladies and gentlemen

(06:53):
, on what it means to havespiritual authority, what does
it mean to operate in spiritualauthority, what does it mean to
be under spiritual authority,and what are the lines that show
us when it's out of bounds andwhen it's correct?
So one of the first things Iwant to mention is this If you
got a notepad and a pen, I hopethat you do or type on your
keyboard or whatever it is thatyou're going to do take down

(07:14):
some notes and write down thesescriptures, because it's really
going to help you.
Today, when we talk aboutspiritual authority and
spiritual abuse, think about it.
There's a key word in both ofthem it is spiritual.
So remember, all authoritypertains to the spirit.
It's pertaining to the thingsof the spirit.
In Ephesians, chapter four,verse 11 through 13,.

(07:34):
I wanna read this to youbecause I wanna make sure, see,
one of the things that we'vegotten away from, ladies and
gentlemen, we've gotten awayfrom the Bible.
We don't always need to hear apastor's commentary, we need to
give commentary to it.
But sometimes we givecommentary but then we leave it
void of scripture.
How about we do both?
How about we read the scriptureand then we give the commentary

(07:56):
accordingly, so peopleunderstand.
And that's what you're going toget today Spiritual authority
versus spiritual abuse.
And what does it say here?
And he gave himself to be someapostles, some prophets, some
evangelists, some pastors, someteachers.
Look at this for the equippingof the saints, for the work of

(08:16):
the ministry, for the edifyingof the body of Christ, till we
all come to the unity of thefaith and of the knowledge of
the son of God, to a mature,perfect man, to the measure of
the stature of the fullness ofChrist, that we should no longer
be children, tossed to and fro,carried about with every wind
of doctrine by the trickery ofmen, in the cunning craftiness
of deceitful plotting, butspeaking the truth and love may

(08:36):
grow up in all things into him.
Who is to head Christ Jesus?
Okay, so we take a look atthere.
The purpose of the five-foldministry gift Now watch this,
we're going to outline it veryquickly is to equip the saints
for the work of the ministry, tomature their kingdom walk with
Christ.
Pastors have never been grantedthe ability to control your life

(08:59):
.
Even if you want to rebel, goddid not stop Adam.
Pastors don't need to controlsheep, because if they are in
rebellion, their lives willspeak for themselves.
God will deal with them.
We don't need to control menand women.
We don't have to control them.
Allow them to make their owndecisions.

(09:19):
If you're in a church where youcannot think for yourself,
where you don't have the abilityto be who you are, then you
need to get out of that church.
Now, once again, see, this isthe thing you have to have the
ability to know what is rightand what is not right.
So you have to have the abilityto understand what is wrong and

(09:41):
what is right.
You got to know both of those.
So that is very, very, veryimportant that you understand
both of those.
Yes, you can do what it is thatyou want, but you are also
responsible to weigh everythingthat is brought to you.
So very, very, very important.
The purpose of the fivefoldministry gift is to equip the
saints for the work of theministry.
It is meant to be kingdomauthority, of course.

(10:04):
Yes, if you're out of line inareas of the scripture, a pastor
or a leader is called, orfive-fold ministry group can
bring you into correction andshow you what the scripture is.
But at the end of the day, itis your choice.
You have the right to think andto do as you want.
But this is the thing.
There are consequences thatcome along with that.
But pastors don't have theright to control your world.
You don't have to havepermission to go on vacation.

(10:26):
You don't have to ask forpermission not to go to church a
week.
Now, there may be certainthings that certain cultures
have where you got to be inchurch certain amount of times.
If you're in leadership, thingslike that, I get that, but
that's your choice.
But they don't have a right totell you how you need to
orchestrate your life.
You need to give this amount.

(10:46):
You need to go do this, youneed to go do that when it's not
applicable to scripture.
So what's happened?
A lot of spiritual abuse hastaken place, because spiritual
authority has come into people'shearts and lives and they feel
well, it's spiritual authority,it's not your authority in life.
You go home, live your life asyou want.
You want to go to the movies?

(11:07):
You go to the movies If youwant to wear pants.
You wear pants If you want,whatever it is.
But see, this is the thing too.
Let me say this, and if youcan't find yourself operating in
a culture that you appreciate,the key is is to get out and to
leave, leave that culture.
Leave that and find a culturewhere you feel you can grow and
develop.
Now, here's the dichotomy.
In all of this, though.
The difficult part is the factthat, of course, people can't be

(11:31):
controlled, but a pastor stillhas to call a spade a spade.
So you've got to determinewhether or not what he's saying,
or she is saying, or thatleader is saying, is for you and
is it biblically in error.
Is the Holy Spirit convictingyou?
And if he is, you've got to ownit.
Whether you like it or not,whether it's comfortable or not,
you still have to own that part.
That is the reality.

(11:51):
So very, very important that weunderstand that.
And I want you to go to Acts 20real quickly Now.
Take a minute like, subscribe,follow, share, because I'm
telling you right now this isgoing to get really, really good
.
You're really going to enjoythis.
Acts 20, verse 28 to 30,because I want to take some time
teaching.
I don't think we do enoughteaching.
I think what's happened in thechurch, especially in the
charismatic church prophecy hasreplaced doctrine in a lot of

(12:14):
ways.
We are so looking for aprophetic word, looking for
somebody to give us directionand guidance, that we've gotten
lazy, where we don't study thescripture for ourselves, where
we don't take the time to read.
We want to be excited.
We want to come to a church,see somebody with their hair on
fire, we want to feel twiddly,bumps and goosebumps and all
these things.
We haven't learned toappreciate the doctrine of the
word.
Am I for prophecy?

(12:34):
By all means?
Do I believe in prophecy?
Absolutely?
Do I allow certain propheciesto govern my life as God leads?
Of course I do, but you cannotallow prophecy to be a
replacement for hearing God foryourself.
I'm going to say that again.
You cannot allow prophecy to bea replacement that you're no

(12:57):
longer hearing God for yourself.
Don't let that replace it.
Matter of fact after you getprophecy, you need to go and
study the scripture and find outand seek God to determine what
God is directing you to do andhow it ought to go, because
prophecy is always, ladies andgentlemen, always meant to be

(13:17):
confirmation, never information.
But that doesn't mean that someprophecy can't start out as
information and becomeconfirmation.
Are you with me, okay?
Acts, chapter 20, verse 28through 30.
Now look at this here.
Paul's writing here.
Actually, that's not Paul, I'msorry, it's Luke that's writing.
Therefore, take heed toyourselves and to all the flock.

(13:37):
Now watch this Among which theHoly Spirit has made you
overseers to shepherd the churchof God, which he purchased with
his own blood.
For I know this that after mydeparture, savage wolves will
come in among you, not sparingthe flock.
Now look at this here.
This is very important.
Jesus purchased the body ofChrist with his own blood and

(13:59):
now he gives us pastors toshepherd us.
But this is the key, ladies andgentlemen, I want you to catch
this.
This is very, very importantand I'm going to get into this
in just a minute.
I'm going to come back to it.
But shepherding deals withinfluence.
Now, stay with me on this,because this is important.
Okay, we're going to come backto that.

(14:19):
Go to Hebrews, chapter 13, realquickly.
Go to Hebrews, chapter 13, realquickly.
Hebrews 13, verse number 17.
Obey those who rule over youand be submissive, for they must
watch out for your souls.
As those who must give account,let them do so with joy and not
with grief, for that would beunprofitable for you.

(14:40):
Okay, now, this is important.
So we're called to submit.
We understand that.
We understand that.
We understand that God gave usoverseers or shepherds, or
pastors that are there and theyhave to.
We have to give an account.
Me as a pastor, as a leader, Ihave to give an account for how
well I stewarded and took careof the people of God.
But it's very, very importantthat we understand we are not
called to Lord over their life.

(15:01):
You can listen.
At the end of the day, a personcould you say I want to go to
hell.
I'm going to go live contraryto the scripture.
I'm going to go do somethingcompletely different to what
God's word says.
They have that right now.
It doesn't mean that the churchcan't step in and do whatever
it needs to be done.
But many people have been toldhow to live their life.
I'm talking about like you'regoing to be a church three days

(15:24):
a week.
You are going to pray.
When I tell you to pray, if youdon't get up and do this,
you're in rebellion and thejudgment of God is going to come
upon you.
You better get in there.
You feel called to serve in onepart and the pastor tells you
no, I want you serving over here.
Go do what I told you to do.
You go do this.
They can speak down to you,they can degrade you.
There's no place in scripturethat says that it's okay.

(15:48):
There is no place.
There's no place.
And if you're in a place likethat, where the leaders do not
serve, I was just in SanFrancisco, out in that area in
Stockton, california, speakingat a conference, and one of
these Lord put upon my spirit isthat a lot of times people that
have pulpit gifts, that haveinfluence, feel that they're no
longer servants.

(16:08):
But if you take a look at Jesus,the Bible says on the night
that he was betrayed.
Not only was he getting readyto face the most worst
crucifixion, suffering, tormentand death a man could possibly
face he gets up.
Now, if it were me and my handswere getting ready to be
pierced, my side was going to bepierced.

(16:29):
My feet are going to be pierced.
I want my favorite dinner thatnight.
I want my hands and my feetdone.
I mean, I'm going to get allmanicured, make me feel as good
as possible.
What does Jesus do?
No, he doesn't do that.
He doesn't to realize that weare anointed to serve the body
of Christ.
It doesn't mean that we are nothonored because we're gonna get
to that side.
Trust me, there's two sides tothis, but I wanna first address

(16:52):
this facet of it.
It's so important that weunderstand that we are not
called to be lords, butshepherds.
Okay, 1 Peter, chapter five.
Let's go there real quickly.
Once a minute, once again, takea minute like, subscribe,
follow, share.
I'm telling you people arereally going to be blessed by
this.
First Peter five, verse numberone the elders who are among you

(17:14):
elder can be a shepherd, apastor among who I exhort, I who
am a fellow elder and a witnessof the sufferings of Christ and
also a partaker of the glorythat will be revealed.
Verse two Now look at this.
This is first Peter, chapterfive, verse two shepherd, the
flock of God, which is among you, serving Do you hear that word?
Serving?
I'm gonna say it again servingas overseers, not by compulsion,

(17:38):
but willingly, not fordishonest gain, but eagerly.
Now this is where I wanna getto in verse three, not as being
lords over those entrusted toyou, but being examples to the
flock.
And when the chief shepherdappears, you will receive the
crown of glory that does notfade away.
So, verse three not being alord, not being a tyrant.

(17:59):
We don't have the right to be ataskmaster.
We don't have the right to tellpeople where to go.
We don't have the right to be ataskmaster.
We don't have the right to tellpeople where to go.
We don't have the right to justsay well, you just do what I
tell you.
Or else Now, when it comes to apastor having authority in the
church, they want the children'sministry ran a certain way,
they have a certain vision.
Not talking about that.
We are gifted to do that, wehave the authority to do that.

(18:20):
We're the line where it becomesspiritual abuse versus
spiritual authority, spiritualauthority.
God has given the pastors thefivefold ministry, the ability
to speak into your life, tosupport your life.
But it needs to be with thescripture, where spiritual think
about it like this.
Abuse is abnormal use.
So abuse is using something forwhich it was not intended to be

(18:43):
used for anything Anything atall.
It doesn't matter whether youuse a butter knife, it's a
screwdriver.
That's really abusing the knife.
It was not created, nor is itintended to be able to do this,
not that it can't perform it,but what it's saying is that
that's an abuse.
So when you're abusing theflock of God, when you're using
your spiritual authority in theform of abuse, you're using your
authority in a way God neverintended it.
So we have to determine andoutline how did God attend

(19:06):
spiritual authority to do?
And the only thing that Goddoes, he wants us to equip the
saints for the work of theministry, to shepherd their
souls according to thescriptures.
That is it.
Anything else outside of thatis their prerogative.
Where the Bible is silent,pastors must be silent.
We can give our opinion, but wecannot lord that over people.

(19:27):
People have been so bound insome areas they can't even think
for themselves.
They gotta ask the pastor forpermission to go and speak
somewhere.
Now show me.
There's no place in Scripture.
Now please hear me, becausethere's two sides of the boat.
Now don't get me wrong.
If you've got a position in thechurch and it needs to be
filled, well of course you knowthe pastor may ask you hey,
before you go, could you do that?
Well, of course that'sunderstandable, but I'm talking

(19:48):
about permission.
No, you can't go.
That's not Bible.
You are not a Lord over them.
You are serving them and theyare supposed to submit to our
servitude, and sometimes in thatserving, there is correction,
sometimes there's things that wedon't want to hear, but there
is not control, because wherethere is control, people begin
to revolt.

(20:09):
And I think what we're seeing inthe body of Christ is people
being sick and tired of beingsick and tired saying listen, I
and people have used in the pastI'm not saying this about
people that may be in the newsat this time, but people have
used spiritual authority as away to get people to bend to
their will.
People are threatened, peopleare scared, they're worried
about rebelling against God.

(20:29):
Get into your Bible.
The Bible makes it clear onwhere a pastor's authority lies
and where it doesn't, and Ibelieve every pastor y'all ready
for this Every pastor shouldrun their church with an open
hand, god removes them andplaces them in there as he feels
.
The moment you startconstricting your hand.
Leader, pastor, whoever you are,you are now becoming a Lord.

(20:52):
You are not a Lord, you are ashepherd.
Now, this is where I want toget to.
This is so powerful, oh, it isso good.
Take him in and share this withsomebody.
I'm telling you, it's going toset some people free.
Some of you, pastors, need torepent.
Some of us may need to repent.
Maybe we've done it the wrongway.
Some of us need to empower ourpeople to have a voice in the
accurate, biblical way.

(21:13):
Are you hearing what I'm saying?
There are some people theycan't even think for themselves.
They can't even think for the.
I've seen it.
They're afraid.
Oh my God, if my pastor doesn'ttell me I have his permission,
he's not going to give me hisblessing.
If he doesn't give me hisblessing, oh, what am I going to
do?
Oh my gosh, I'm going to go tohell.
Man, get out of here Now, ofcourse.
Now hear me.

(21:33):
There's two sides, and that'sthe hard part, because there's
two sides to both of this.
It doesn't mean that when yourpastor speaks, you don't want to
hear it.
But this is the key.
How do I know if I need to hear?
How do I know if I need?
Because there's something I canhear right now that I kind of
said I know I just want to dowhat's right, but I don't want

(21:55):
to hear the wrong thing, I don't.
First thing you got to do isyou got to find God for yourself
.
You got to find God foryourself.
You got to hear his voicebecause watch this, this is
where I want to get to.
A shepherd, watch this leadsthe sheep with his voice.
Oh, this is about to get good.
Now, watch, watch, watch, watch, watch, watch Ready, now check

(22:16):
this out.
A pastor only can shepherdwhere he or she has influence,
and you can only be led if youcan hear the shepherd through
the under shepherd, which is apastor fivefold ministry gift.
Even a prophetic voice is anunder shepherd.

(22:37):
Now watch this.
Go with me to John, chapter 10,verse number 25.
Oh, I hope you're being blessedby this.
I hope that you're beingblessed.
I feel the anointing of theHoly Ghost on this, john 10,
verse number 25.
Now, this is powerful.
Jesus answered them.
I told you Now he was speakingto them about some things and

(22:59):
they weren't hearing it.
But look at what he says.
I told you, and you do notbelieve, the works that I do in
my father's name.
They bear witness to me, butyou do not believe because you
are not of my sheep.
As I said to you, verse 27,.
This is so good.
My sheep hear my voice and Iknow them and they follow me.

(23:19):
Oh, my good God, how do I tellif my pastor is my pastor?
Simple, number one.
You first got to hear God foryourself because the only way
you will know that.
Listen, I don't believe thatevery person picks their own
pastor.
I don't believe that.
I believe God ordains pastorsfor your life.
You say how do I know that?
Where do you hear the shepherd,through the under shepherd,

(23:43):
which is us serving you?
Where do we hear that, if wehear God's voice, we're not
looking to a man anyways, we aresupposed to be as pastors and
shepherds, hearing from God andit should bear witness with
God's sheep.
Oh my good God, almighty.
So it's not me telling you whatto do, it is the hearing you,

(24:06):
us both submitting to God.
The people submitting to Godsaying God, I want to follow you
.
The shepherd saying God, I wantto follow you by serving your
people.
So, lord, give me what you'resaying to them and may it bear
witness with your sheep.
So watch this.
If a pastor is truly a undershepherd for you, he will have

(24:27):
the word of the Lord or she willhave the word of the Lord for
you.
And if they're now, let me setsome pastors free.
If I don't have influence withthe people that I'm speaking to,
I'm not their shepherd, eventhough they may be in my
ministry.
Are you with me Now?
Watch this.
The shepherds you followdetermines the mantle that

(24:51):
blesses your life.
You can be in a church but notreflect the glory of that church
and the anointing of thatchurch because you're not
following the mantle of thatchurch.
So we have to understand thepurpose behind.
It is to have a shepherd thatyou hear God through.
That confirms in your heart.
And shepherds You've got toknow.
If I'm speaking to them and Idon't have any influence in

(25:12):
their life, I'm not theirshepherd.
So you have to understandshepherds Now.
Are you ready for this?
You can know who your shepherdis and you can know who you're
shepherding based upon how wellthey hear your voice.
And, ladies and gentlemen, ifyou're being shepherded, how
well do you hear God throughthem?
And if you can't have both, ifthat person doesn't hear God

(25:34):
through the shepherd and theshepherd doesn't feel the person
is hearing them, then you'renot shepherding them.
Just as simple.
Now the difficulty if people saywell, does that mean I have to
do everything the shepherd tellsme to do?
Not necessarily.
People say well, does that meanI have to do everything the
shepherd tells me to do?
Not necessarily you have to doeverything God tells you to do.
But if the shepherd shows yousomething in the scripture that
you are in error of or you needto adjust, then you need to

(25:54):
adjust because it's the word ofthe Lord.
Or if you hear God through them, you need to respond.
So you can't.
You should never blame somebodythat well, I'm being
spiritually abused.
The only way that spiritualabuse happens is when people
don't know the scripture.
My people perish for lack ofknowledge If you don't know what
the Bible says.
I know I'm going to do a parttwo of this, by the way, so just
this is going to be part one.
If you don't know what the Biblesays, people can deceive you.

(26:17):
They can play on yourheartstring for God and what
will happen and you'll.
Because of fear.
And they become a time becauseall spiritual authority is
operated under fear period.
They're afraid of losing people, they're afraid that they're
not going to be able to go wherethey want to go.
So they put fear into thepeople and, as a result, they
become a tyrant, they become ataskmaster, they begin to drive

(26:38):
the people versus being calledout of grace.
There's some of you watchingright now.
You are burnt out from yourpastor.
You are burnt out from whereyou are.
You are burnt out why?
Because you're trying tooperate in a grace that God
hasn't called you to do.
You're following the pastor andyou're not following the voice
of God.
See, a lot of people will getmad at this and say oh my God,

(26:59):
how could you say that?
No, because I'm a secure pastor.
I'm a secure pastor.
I don't feel threatened.
If people think for themselves,jesus even said it like this no
man can follow me except theFather.
Draw them.
Well, why don't we just allowthe Holy Spirit to draw the
people?
Now, that doesn't mean, when theBible says the Bible, that you
don't follow him, or if there'ssomething in the church that's

(27:22):
saying this is the way we wantour culture.
You follow that culture.
Now, if you don't like thatculture, then you can go to a
different culture.
But every church has a cultureand you got to determine whether
that culture fits you or not.
You don't go in there trying tochange the culture.
You go in there and you submitto the culture at the end of the
day.
And so there is culture andthen there's Bible.
Now there's one or two, one ortwo.

(27:44):
There's two different thingsthere.
So every church has a culture,but every church needs to follow
the scriptures and where theauthority lies when it deals
with the culture, ladies andgentlemen, and when it deals
with the Bible.
They're the only two areas thata pastor has a right to come
into your world and to ask youto submit to follow.
Are you with me Now?
Watch this, this is important.
Lordship deals with one thing,shepherding deals with another.

(28:06):
A shepherd Watch this.
We'll serve the people.
That's how you can trust ashepherd.
Good friend of mine I was justout at his church, bishop Mark
Filk, if he's watching this orlistening to this, one of the
greatest men of God.
I've ever met.
Such a servant, I mean, hebrought us out to his church.
We spoke.
I mean he served us.

(28:26):
I mean he served as if he wassomebody that was just coming to
the church for the first day.
His son served, his wife served.
They're constantly serving, andso what happens when we serve?
It validates our heart.
That people will hear our voiceDoesn't mean everybody, doesn't
mean everybody, but people wantto know.
How do I know?
When I found a good shepherd?
The Bible says we're to serve.

(28:47):
How well do they serve?
Do they serve?
Do they have feeling ofentitlement or do they serve?
So what's happening, though?
A lot of people have agendas andthen they want to drive the
people, and then the people,because of their heart for God,
they're afraid, they'reterrified.
They, because of their heartfor God, they're afraid, they're
terrified, they're terrified.
Oh my gosh, if I don't do thisand you don't have the grace to
do it, you're serving seven,eight days a week.

(29:09):
There's only seven days in aweek and you're so exhausted,
family suffering, everythingelse, because you want to make
the pastor happy, you want tomake that person happy.
That's not what God called usto do.
He called us to be led, happens.
The pastor shares and thepeople should be drawn.
They should be drawn.
We run it with an open hand.
Are you hearing what I'm saying?
So it's very, very importantthat we understand that, and so

(29:30):
what I want to do is set peoplefree, because reality is I tell
people this all the time.
I said listen, in my church wehave a culture.
There's certain things that weexpect.
If you're going to be inleadership, there's certain ways
you have to live.
We can hold you accountablethat we ask you to sign up for
that.
If you don't want to sign up,you don't have to.
But if you're a leader, there'scertain things every church
will require of you.
The higher you go, there'scertain things that are required
of you.
That's what that churchrequires.

(29:50):
You don't have to do that.
But we're saying if you wantthat title, that's culture.
This is how we operate inculture.
Where it gets ugly is whenpeople start feeling controlled.
What do I mean by that?
You got to do this.
People can't people.
People, hey, you got to get upat three in the morning, leave
your wife, leave your kids, godo this.
You don't get to rest, youcan't do that.

(30:11):
You can't take.
I mean, I've seen it.
Where people are exhausted,they're exhausted and they feel.
This is the thing.
It's not the fact that pastorcan't ask, but they have the
right to say no when it comes tothings, when it comes to their
gift and when it comes to whothey are, and it comes to their
family and all that.
That's their decision.
Now, you may not be able to bea leader, but it's still their
choice and they don't need to befelt.

(30:31):
They don't.
They don't need to be made tofeel bad, because they have
their own decision and they havetheir own feelings and their
own heart.
Now, this is the round.
I want to come back to this, andthat's the difficult part of
this is there's two sides to it,and that's why I want to go
back and forth.
That doesn't mean, though, whatyour pastor shares you don't
need to take heed to, and itdoesn't mean that, when it deals
with their culture, you don'tneed to follow it.
Hardy gave you the out.

(30:52):
If you choose to leave, you canchoose to leave, but if you
choose to say, then you've gotto be willing to follow through
completely as a result.
So it's important that weunderstand that we have to
follow the pastor and thatculture when we're there, but if
it's like control and all that.
Then find a culture where youcan flesh yourself out and flesh
out your vision and yourpassion and your purpose and

(31:14):
what you're called to do.
I hope that that makes sense toyou.
But this is the thing.
My sheep know my voice and theyfollow me.
I've made it very clear in myministry.
I was like hey, if you're goingto follow me, this is where
we're headed.
If it rings with you, come joinus.
If it isn't, then that's okay.
Now, when it comes to ourculture, it's non-negotiable.
This is what our culture is.
You got to follow that If youwant to be a part of our culture

(31:35):
.
That's how we do it.
But at the end of the day't dowhat I tell you to do.
You go into hell.
You better do it.
And that pastors can use anytone talk down to them, berate
them.
That is not biblical.
And I want to go on to this.
Why, ready, ready, ready, ready, ready, ready.

(31:56):
God never anoints pastors orleaders to destroy what he died
for oh, that's so good.
for oh, that's so good.
for A true secure pastor.
A true secure pastor allows hisown people to make their
decisions, whether he agrees ornot.

(32:18):
Now, it doesn't mean he doesn'thave the right to enforce some
type of correction if they'rebiblically in error or if
there's something that's goingagainst the culture, he has a
right to do that.
He has a right to say this isnot a way.
They're late.
They have a right to say youcan't serve, you're not going to
be on time, things along thatline.
But I'm talking about control,where, if you don't do this, you

(32:39):
better come to the church.
I need you there, you, youthere.
You didn't plan on being there.
Come to church tonight at fiveo'clock and if you're not there,
I'm taking you down fromleadership.
You're an error.
You're this, you're that aredriving the people.
God never anoints you todestroy what he died for.
Why, if anybody could havedestroyed the people, it was
Christ Jesus.
Jesus could have easily havedestroyed them on the cross.

(32:59):
What do you say, father,forgive them.
Then they know not what they do.
One man he brings to paradisewith him.
The other man he doesn't evenrespond to.
So it's always important andthis is the thing that's
important as well, whetheryou're dealing with pastors or
whoever it might be, even if youhave a place of authority in
your life.
Now watch this, and I needsomeone to catch this Jesus is
always redemptive, even in hisrebukes.

(33:22):
My good God, that's so good.
He's always redemptive, even inhis rebuke.
Why the Bible says in John 3,16 through 18.
Let's go there real quickly.
John, chapter three, verse 16through 18.
I'm going to give you a bunch ofscripture I would like to just
preach, but I don't want you tofeel it's my opinion.
I want you to see it in thescripture.

(33:43):
For God so loved the world thathe gave his only begotten son
that whoever believes in himshould not perish, but what have
everlasting life.
For God did not send his soninto the world to condemn the
world, but that the worldthrough him might be saved.
Let me read that again For Goddid not send his son into the
world to condemn the world, butthat the world through him might

(34:03):
be saved.
He who believes in him is notcondemned, but he who does not
believe is condemned alreadybecause he has not believed in
the name of the only begottenson of God.
So here we go, very importanthere.
So people say well, don'tcondemn me.
Don't condemn me.
Condemn me Are you ready?
Is not the same as correct me.
We have made correction, wehave made correction,

(34:32):
condemnation.
People have made conviction.
You ready?
Condemnation.
They don't know the difference.
Now, here you go.
This is important.
Correction is not condemning,but how is can correction be
condemning?
Yes, it can.
How it's the spirit, by wayit's delivered, by the way in
which it is delivered.
So correction always has thegood news and redemption with it

(34:56):
.
Even if you're correcting yourstaff, even if you're correcting
your people, the purpose behindit is to be redemptive.
Now, there are times you haveto fire, there are times you
have to.
I get that, but the spiritbehind it is like I'm trying to
get you over, not to disqualifyyou.
Oh, that's so good.
The spirit by which you deliveryour message determines whether

(35:22):
it's correction, conviction orcondemnation or judgment.
It's the spirit by which youdeliver it, because this is the
reality.
There are two stories here.
Oh, this is so good.
I hope y'all are getting this.
Before I go there too, let's goto Galatians 6, verse 1.
Galatians 6, verse number 1.

(35:44):
Brethren, if a man is overtakenin any trespass, so if anybody
is struggling, if they're havinga sin, if they're having a
weakness.
You, who are spiritual, if youfeel like you're on that level,
you're doing well.
Restore such a one in a spiritof meekness.
Yeah, I could break your leg,but I'm just going to apply
enough pressure to get you tosee we need to make an

(36:05):
adjustment.
Considering yourself yourselflets you also be tempted.
So people that are judgmentalwhich means this they're
correcting without redemption,which is judgment or
condemnation.
You bum, you idiot, you'refailure, you're this, you're
that.
How dare you?
Who do you think you are?

(36:26):
All that stuff?
There's nothing redemptive.
Christ, even in his correction,is always redemptive, why he's
the God of another chance.
So he's letting you knowthere's an error, but guess what
?
There's another chance.
And most people.
Just how you can tell thedifference between correction,

(36:47):
conviction or judgment andcondemnation is the spirit, is
it redemptive?
Doesn't mean it doesn't call aspade a spade.
Doesn't mean it doesn't call anerror an error.
It's saying, okay, you didwrong, but guess what?
You're not disqualified.
That needs to be laced in themessage.
Jesus who caught the woman inadultery.
Look at the difference betweenthe two Stoner stoner, stoner

(37:08):
stoner.
That's why listen to me, listento me, please hear me everyone,
please hear me.
Ministers are being exposed leftand right.
We are not called to condemn orjudge.
Are we called to correct?
Of course, but it needs to bewith a heart of redemption

(37:30):
Anybody you see in the publiceye that has failed but has
blessed you.
Do not condemn them or judgethem.
Do not See the difference?
We have to separate correctionand conviction versus judgment
and condemnation.

(37:50):
What is the difference?
One is redemptive, one says it'snot too late, one says God is
the God of another chance.
And it doesn't mean therearen't things that people lose.
And it doesn't mean that peopledon't have to step back.
And it doesn't mean thatsometimes people can't get back
into ministry.
I get that Sometimes, if you'remessing with kids or doing

(38:11):
something like that, sometimesyou can't get back.
You can't get it back.
But even if you can't geteverything back, there are some
things.
Everybody deserves to beforgiven and given another
chance in some way that theirlife is not over.
God is not done with them.
He wants to use their story.
He wants to redeem them.
Are you following me?

(38:33):
We are not to put our mouths onpeople, to condemn them and
judge.
Oh man, see, I knew there wassomething wrong with them.
Yeah, see, I knew it.
Yup, yup.
See, that's what they get, yup,that's why they going down.
Yup, I knew it.
How dare they?
They going to hell?
No, no, no, no, no.
Now you're in condemnation andjudgment.
Yes, that was wrong.
You have to call it what it is.
But it's not your jobs, becauselisten, this is the thing you

(38:56):
probably don't have a voice withthem anyways.
So who are you to judge them?
Because you don't know whatGod's be doing in them.
And listen, if everybody kneweverything about you, oh my
goodness.
Nobody want to be your friend,nobody want to be my friend.
Everybody's got something intheir world that they're not
proud of.
Everybody has someplace intheir life where something they

(39:20):
did wrong, and you don't wanteverybody kicking you when
you're down.
Nobody wants that.
Now, this is the thing.
Listen to me when I say thisEvery sin requires a certain
level of accountability.
I get it, but that don't mean wehave to be the ones to put our
foot on their neck.
We have to determine.
See, the problem is we have tohave accurate judgment.

(39:41):
When we do it, we need to bejudicious, rather, in our
judgments Doesn't mean we don'tcall a spade a spade and that we
have to work through a process.
Sometimes people do it.
We need to be judicious, rather, in our judgments.
It doesn't mean we don't call aspade a spade and that we have
to work through a process.
Sometimes people do time,people have to go to jail.
But our heart is, if they'rewilling to repent, come on
somebody, if they're willing tocome to the table, if they're
willing to confess their faults,if they're willing to say I'm

(40:04):
sorry, if they're willing to ownwhat they've done wrong, we
need to be the ones that arespiritual and restore them.
And this is the thing A lot ofpeople that you see in the news
you're not going to know.
So all you need to do, all Ineed to do, is pray for them.
Lord, help them, restore them.
God will deal with that.
If you're the one that's beenafflicted by it, well, that's

(40:24):
another story.
Then you walk through theprocesses you need to walk
through.
But the problem with the churchtoday is, when we find people in
sin, we're looking for a reasonto put our foot on the neck and
crush their jugular.
That is condemnation, that isjudgment.
It's not the fact that youcan't be upset, not the fact
that it doesn't hurt, but let mesay this as well Let me go here
A lot of times.
What happens here we go A lotof times.
What happens here we go?

(40:45):
Spiritual authority, spiritualabuse.
Where people get spirituallyabused is they start looking
people that have spiritualauthority as God and not a voice
for God.
You have to learn early Men aremen, women are women.
They're going to fail you.
People are going to hurt yourfeelings.

(41:05):
People are going to do youwrong.
People are going to makepromises to you and break them.
They're men and women, justlike you, and I Don't put them
on a pedestal.
It doesn't mean that they havean excuse Please hear me but
they're not God, so we don'tfollow them as God.
What we do, though, is say God,they're your voice piece, and
when I hear your voice or I hearyour word through them, I will

(41:26):
follow and, lord, if this iswhere I feel God's calling me to
be, as long as the culturewatch this, all right.
There's four reasons Let me givethis to you, four reasons why
you don't follow a spiritualauthority Ready, illegal,
unethical, immoral or unbiblical.
Oh, that's so good.
Write that in Somebody, pleasedo me a favor.
The only reasons why you don'tfollow spiritual authority

(41:53):
illegal, unethical, immoral orunbiblical.
Otherwise, you determine theculture because if it doesn't
fall into one of thosecategories, there's no reason
you can't follow it.
Excuse me, if you don't want tofollow it, go to another place.
If you don't want to follow it,find another culture.
That's completely fine.
It's totally up to you.
But unless it's illegal,unethical, immoral or unbiblical
, it is not for you to speakagainst that authority, and so

(42:16):
it's important that we are very,very careful.
Now I'm going to say this hereand I might wrap up here,
because I'm going to do a parttwo.
I might even come on againtomorrow, but I'm telling you
this is going to be a blessing,like subscribe, follow, share,
take a minute right now and justgo and do that, because I
believe people are really goingto be blessed, because this is
the type of teaching, ladies andgentlemen, the church needs to
hear.
I know a lot of pastors ain'tgoing to want to hear this,
because a lot of pastors usethat thumb.

(42:37):
They're really slave masters.
They've turned into pharaohsthat command them to make bricks
without straw.
There are pastors that do that.
Now, I'm not saying that doesn'tmean a pastor has a standard
pastor that wants to be theleader.
That's his culture.
As long as it's not illegal,unethical, immoral or unbiblical
, you may not do it that way,but that's fine.
You're not pastoring thatchurch.
If you want to have it adifferent way, go find a church

(42:58):
you want to pastor.
You can do that.
Don't try to change the culture.
You'd say.
This is where I feel God hascalled me.
That's why I see this is thething.
We can't take theresponsibility off of people.
To hear from God for themselves, you've got to hear from the
Lord for yourself.
What has God said to you?
Is that where you're called tobe?
If it is, then follow it.
Listen, I've been in church.
I've been a senior pastor, beena lead pastor and I've been

(43:23):
under pastors In every church.
I've seen pastors do thingsthat ain't right, that literally
aren't right, that I definitelywouldn't do.
But then I see pastors thathave done things that just isn't
my preference.
I don't run like that, but Istill followed what they wanted
because it's not illegal, it'snot unethical, it's not immoral,
it's not unbiblical.
Well, I'm still going to followthat, even if it's not the way
that I would do it.
I wouldn't want to do it likethis.

(43:45):
I wouldn't expect my leadershipto any of your church.
So now remember oh, I wish I hadmore time to go into this, but
I'm going to get into it laterbecause one of the things I'm
going to talk about is familyimage.
When you have a family minister, family ministry where, like I
have, or there's a lot of peoplethat are your husband and wife,
how do you operate in thatoperate when you have your

(44:05):
brother or sister, aunt or uncleand there's authority in there,
and how do you have family?
But then how do you haveministry?
I'm going to talk about thatlater on, which I'm not going to
get into.
We see that story with Miriamand Moses and Aaron and all of
that.
We'll talk about that later on.
But it's important that weunderstand God has not anointed
pastors to destroy what he diedfor.
Now watch this.
Remember we talked about it.
There's judgment and there iscondemnation.

(44:29):
There's correction andconviction.
Okay, so remember that thespirit behind which they operate
determines whether it's one orthe other.
Now watch this Just because youare uncomfortable does not mean
your pastor or leader is inerror.

(44:51):
Just because you don't like itdon't mean they're wrong, my
good God.
It doesn't mean that they havethe right to speak the word of
God or to correct you about theculture.
In my culture, at our church,we all know we don't do late, we
have deadlines, all that and wecorrect people when they don't.
We hold people accountable forthat.
Nothing wrong with that.
Some people why wouldn't dothat?

(45:12):
Let people come when they want.
That's your church.
If that's what God calls you todo, go ahead and do that.
But this is what God told me todo in this culture, so we
enforce that.
Now that doesn't mean peoplewon't get uncomfortable like
that.
This is our culture, this iswhat we do.
This is how we operate.
But we're always redemptive aslong as the person's willing to
repent and change.
We're always trying to bringpeople up.
Are you following me?

(45:34):
Okay?
Now there is a story.
There are two of them.
Go with me to Exodus, chapter17,.
Real, quickly, exodus 17.
And I want to read these two toyou, and then I'm going to wrap
up with this.
I hope you've been blessed bythis man.
I tell you what this is so goodand you know what I wish I
would have heard this years andyears ago, because there were
many areas of my life where Ifell into that trap of fear, and

(45:54):
I mean you were afraid to doanything, man.
I mean if they told you to getdown and do 20 pushups, if you
didn't do it you was going tohell.
I mean you get to a point Iremember where, when people
would give altar calls, Iwouldn't go up and get saved,
I'd battle with them, I'd gohome and couldn't sleep at night
.
I'm just telling you what.
I don't want people in thatbondage, I don't want you in
that bondage and I don't wantpastors to be in that bondage.
A lot of times we don'tunderstand.
The Bible says God said hewould build a church.

(46:15):
We don't have to drive people.
We don, and people can do that,and that's not fair.
How we treat them, how we talkto them, how we berate them,
that's not what God called us todo.
So look here Exodus, chapter 17.
Now this is the two stories ofMoses to best illustrate
conviction, condemnation.
I'm sorry, conviction andcorrection.

(46:38):
Condemnation and judgment.
Now here's the first one here.
This is a story where they wereled out into the wilderness and
Moses doesn't have anything togive him to drink.
Out into the wilderness andMoses doesn't have anything to
give him to drink.
Now watch this.
Now I want to show you here.
Then all the congregation of thechildren of Israel set out on
their journey from thewilderness of sin, according to
the commandment of the Lord, andcamped in Rephidim, or the
place of rest, but there was nowater for the people to drink.

(46:59):
Therefore, the people contendedwith Moses Now look at this
here, this is important, there'sa lot to be learned by this and
said give us water that we maydrink.
So Moses said to them why doyou contend with me?
Why do you tempt the Lord?
Moses understood it right there.
Listen, sometimes God leads achurch, a ministry, into places
where you need a miracle.

(47:22):
He's trying to grow you, he'strying to reveal something.
And so what happened?
The people began to tempt theLord by way of Moses.
They didn't like where theywere, they were upset.
So now they're mad at Moses.
You brought us out here.
We ain't got no water.
Give us water that we may drink.
And he's like wait, and why areyou tempted?
They were thirsty, they didn'thave what they wanted.
So they cried and complained atMoses, complained at him why

(47:45):
are you doing this, why you gotto do like that?
Why do people have to be ontime?
Why do we have to tithe ifwe're going to be a member?
Why do we have to do that?
Why do we have to be dead, allthese types of things coming
after?
Because they didn't like whatwas coming from the Lord?
It wasn't Moses, it was theLord.
And look at, and the peoplethirsted for water and the
people complained against Moses.
Why did you bring us out ofEgypt to kill us and our

(48:06):
children?
And now so they're mad at Moses.
Now, watch this.
This is important.
People say am I allowed to askquestions to authority?
Of course you can.
Now watch this.
This is very important.
If a pastor is unbiblical,illegal, unethical and moral, of
course you should go challengea pastor.
I'm going to talk about how todo that in the future.
I'll get to that, but I don'twant to take too much for side

(48:27):
track, because that's a wholenother thing.
There's probably part three andfour coming to this as well two
, three and four.
But the thing that I want youto realize is it wrong to ask a
question?
Is it wrong, if you don'tunderstand where a pastor is
going to ask him?
Yes, watch this.

(48:50):
It all deals with motive.
It's not.
Can I ask a question?
Motive always deals with onequestion why.
Motive deals with the why youdid what you did.
It's the difference Watch thisbetween first degree murder and
involuntary manslaughter.
First degree murder ismeditated.
There's some people that havefirst degree rebellion and some
people have a manslaughterrebellion, if I could say it
like that.
Some people they may not.
It wasn't intentional, I didn'trealize it and they made an

(49:11):
error.
Some people their motive iswrong.
They intended I'm trying to dosomething bad.
So the judgment comes basedupon what the motive of the
heart is.
But it still can be wrongeither way, it doesn't matter,
it's still an error, just.
But motive goes a long way.
But also, motive is how we canexpose what spirit we are

(49:31):
walking in.
That's very, very importantthat we understand that.
And the people thirst for waterand they complained against
Moses.
Why did you bring us out hereinto Egypt to kill us and our
children and our livestock withthirst?
So they're complaining now, mad, why the pastor asked them to
do something they didn't want todo, and so now they're in a
situation.
And so instead of saying okay,god, what are you doing in this
moment, in this situation.

(49:51):
They began to complain againstthe character of Moses because
they didn't like what God wassaying, which is what a lot of
people do.
And this is where we get intospiritual rebellion now, because
they think they're speaking tooh, this is so good.
They think they're speaking tooh, this is so good.
They think they're speaking toMoses.
And you have to understand.
You're not following a man,you're following a mantle.

(50:12):
Did you hear that?
You're not following the man,you're following the mantle.
So you have to understand.
That's why David becomes such agreat king, besides his error
with Bathsheba, but otherwisehe's still noted as the greatest
king to ever be.
But look, no matter what Sauldid, he dodged the javelins and

(50:33):
never touched the anointing.
He never touched the mantle.
He did what God called him todo and God prepared him in that
time in order watch this to beable to be in that mantle.
So a lot of people don'tunderstand it.
I'm not.
I'm not after that, I'm notgoing to touch the man.
I'm allowed the mantle to dealwith the man, because I'll talk
about that later too.
The mantle will deal with theman which I'm about to show you

(50:54):
in just a minute.
If we deal with it the rightway.
But it's very, very importantthat we understand it's.
You have to be careful when ohnow hear me, this is where
rebellion comes.
When it is God and you touchthe man, wow See, this is where

(51:15):
you got to know God for yourself.
There's in between, all right,that's the culture, that's the
culture I ain't going to touchthat.
I ain't got nothing to do withme.
I either follow it or I don't.
If it's the word of God, I gotto follow it.
I ain't going to touch the man.
It's the word of God or itisn't.
But when it comes to just thefact that it's the word of the
Lord, and then it comes to youand you decide I'm going to
touch that messenger, that'slike me going and beating up my
mailman because I didn't likewhat somebody sent me through
him, and God takes thatpersonally.

(51:37):
You won't beat him up becauseof what I sent to you.
And see, if you don't know thedifference, you can be in
rebellion.
And that's why it's importantyou listen, ladies and gentlemen
.
You've got to know God foryourself.
You've got to know the word,you've got to know what God is
saying, so then you can gaugeappropriately.
Otherwise you can fall intoabuse or you can fall into
rebellion based upon what youdon't know.

(51:58):
That's why I'm taking the timeto teach you right now, because
all the stuff that's going on inthe news, people say, oh, what
about this?
A lot of people are rebellingright now because of how
spiritually abused they've been.
But you can't throw both out.
You can't say I'm just notgonna follow anything, I'm just
gonna say anything to any man ofGod or any woman of God.
You can't do that.
That's biblically in error.
Even if you've been wounded,you got to go get healed and
find the right way to be able tocome correctly.

(52:19):
All right, I'm almost done withthis.
Now look at this.
So Moses cried to the Lord.
There's a message in that forpastors as well.
What shall I do with thispeople?
They're almost ready to stoneme.
And the Lord said go before thepeople.
Take with you some of theelders also.
Take into your hand the rod atwhich you will struck the river
and go and behold, I will standbefore you there on the rock and
horrible, and you shall strikethe rock and water will come out

(52:41):
of it that the people may drink.
And Moses did so in the sightof the Israel.
So we call the name of theplace Messiah and Meribah,
because of the contention of thechildren of Israel and because
they tempted the Lord, saying isthe Lord among us or not?
Wow, so look at this here.
He says go there, strike therock, bam, water comes out.

(53:02):
So God gave the people a littlebit of grace in that moment,
because they were incorrect.
They came at Moses.
They are is God with us or not?
Brings the water out, bringsthe correction.
They see now, okay, god's withus.
This should be enough now toprove God and bring them out
there to die, because he couldlet them die there.
So Moses has the right heart.
He strikes the rock, watercomes out.

(53:23):
The people's hearts were wrong,which makes watch this a great.
Leader has to have the rightheart, even when people have
wrong motives.
My good God that'll preachright there.
See, some of you don't realizeyou're being tested even right
now with people that tick youoff to the highest level of
ticktivity.
Because of what reason?
If you don't learn how totemper your emotions, people

(53:47):
will make you angry and you willcome out of character.
Watch this.
And if you are not temperedcorrectly, you will then abuse
with your authority the peopleGod has called you to shepherd,
because if you're in ministrylong enough, you're in business
long enough, people are going toupset you, but God never
anoints you to destroy what hedied for.

(54:10):
Now, this is the thing.
It doesn't mean people don'tlisten.
Hear me well.
Hear me well, because I don'twant a bunch of emails and
people texting me saying whatdid you do this for?
Why'd you say no, no, itdoesn't mean you can't correct
them.
No, no, no, no, you can correct, you can fire, you can transfer
, you can train, whatever youneed to do with that person
individually.
It's the spirit behind whichyou do.
Moses here was redemptive.

(54:31):
Redemptive still brought thewater out of the rock, still
showed the people, correctedthem.
You notice, he never beat up onthem, he just talked to them.
He said he went to the Lord.
Lord, what do you want me to do?
He said go before them and doit, and he allowed God to do it.
But sometimes, being a shepherdand being a leader, ladies and
gentlemen, sometimes you'redealing with people that don't
got it yet.
They're coming along the way,they're learning, they're

(54:54):
growing, they're developing.
They don't get it yet.
Even Jesus got frustrated withhis son how long do I got to be
with y'all?
I mean, man, you still don'tknow that I'm the Messiah.
I mean, I showed you I walkedon water, you still questioning

(55:15):
me.
Even Jesus felt the tension ofthat, but he never abused them,
he never spoke bad to them, henever critically came at them
and judged them.
He was always, alwaysredemptive.
All right, so that's the.
We see the right spirit hitsthe rock, right spirit, water
flows.
Now let's go to Numbers, and I'mdone with this.
After this Numbers, you have tocome back for part two.
I hope you've been blessed.
If you've been blessed, putthat in the timeline there, put
that in a little chat box.
Let me know that you've beenblessed and I'm going to keep

(55:38):
coming to you because I believethis is going to help some
people.
Numbers chapter 20, versenumber one.
I want to read a little bitmore, all right, and then I'm a
wrap up with this.
Then the children of Israel, thewhole congregation, came into
the wilderness of Zin in thefirst month and the people
stayed in Kadesh and Miriam diedthere and was buried there.
And now, once again, there wasno water for the congregation.
So now they're being testedagain with no water.
So they gathered togetheragainst Moses and Aaron.

(55:59):
Now notice that God brings them.
Now.
This is where you have to see.
God brings them to a place andthey start attacking the man
that's in the mantle.
Be very, very careful.
Just because you don'tunderstand doesn't give you a
right to touch a man or a woman.
You can ask questions, but it'sthe spirit behind how you ask.

(56:20):
Are you asking to understand?
I'm not talking about ifthey're that goes without saying
unethical, immoral, unbiblical,any of those.
I get it.
You got to come to.
Hey, I thought I heard this.
What's going on?
We'll talk about that later on.
You know I'm still going alittle bit deeper on how you
deal with that, but I'm talkingabout all right, you just don't
like it.
You're not happy.
It's not illegal, unethical,immoral, unbiblical, any of

(56:42):
those things.
Just you don't like it.
Some people you have to realizeare sometimes God has you and
stuff that ain't comfortable.
You don't like it.
You don't appreciate where youare.
It don't feel good.
Your flesh is being riled up.
Does it give you an opportunityto be disrespectful or dishonor
the man Just because the mantlehas led you to a place where
you didn't want to be.

(57:03):
Oh, that's so good, right there.
Look at there.
Verse number two Now, there wasno water for the congregation,
so they gathered together.
So you're going to pull togethersome foot.
We're going to get Moses andAaron.
Yeah, we're going to get thatpastor.
We're going to have chopped upbroiled pastor tonight.
It's on All right.
And the people contended withMoses saying if we'd only died
when our brethren died beforethe Lord, why have you brought

(57:23):
this assembly up out into thisworld?
Is that our animals would diehere?
Why have you come up out ofEgypt to bring us his evil place
?
Isn't this a place of grain orfigs, or vines or pomegranates?
There's not even any water todrink.
So Moses and Aaron went fromthe presence of the assembly to
the door of the tabernaclemeeting.
They fell on their faces andthe glory of the Lord appeared
before them and he said go, takethe rod, you and your brother

(57:44):
Aaron, gather the congregationtogether, speak to the rock
before their eyes and it willyield its water.
Thus you shall bring water forthem out of the rock and give
drink to the congregations andtheir animals.
So Moses took the rod frombefore the Lord, as he commanded
him, and Moses and Aarongathered the assembly together
before the rock and he said tothem here, now you rebels.

(58:06):
Must we bring water for you outof this rock?
Must we bring water for you outof this rock?
And Moses was starting to takeit personal.
Then Moses lifted up his handand struck the rock twice with
his rod and water came outabundantly and the congregation
and their animals drank.
Now stop right there.
Now I need you to see some.
Verse number eight the peopleare rebelling again and God says

(58:28):
don't strike, speak, watch this.
Sometimes, the harder thepeople come in order to apply
the kingdom, the meeker you haveto become.
What struck before?
God said speak this time.
Wow, think about that for aminute.
Ladies and gentlemen, I couldstrike it before.

(58:49):
Speak this time.
God wanted him to speak to thepeople.
And what does he do now?
Here, now you rebels, must we,must we?
So now he's taking it personal.
Beforehand, god brought thewater out of the rock.
Now it's Moses bringing the.
I got to bring water out of therock for y'all.
So he started elevating himselfand he started getting himself
in the way and, as a result, hebegan to abuse the people.

(59:10):
Here now you rebels.
We bring water to this rock, sohe struck it.
What's amazing?
Now watch this.
I want you to catch this.
Even when God knowingly hasallowed in his sovereignty you
to be subjected to a pastor thatdidn't treat you right, didn't
speak to you right, any of thosethings he will still be
faithful and bring the water ofthe rock, even when the man or

(59:31):
woman of God is not obedient.
That's the reason why you don'thave to control a man or woman
of God, because God will stillbe faithful to you even when the
man or woman of God is notfaithful.
My good God, almighty, somebodyneed to give God praise right
there.
That sets somebody free.
Why you don't need to put yourmouth on them.
You don't need to touch them.
You don't need to do anything.
I'm not talking about if there'ssexual rape, or I'm not talking

(59:54):
about the time you go to thecops, and I'm talking about
things that every day to day,stuff that people get caught up
in.
You know, sometimes they don'tdo things right.
Hey, I'm not going to.
I'm not.
I'm going to be redemptive ineverything that I do.
If Christ can be on the crossand be nailed to the cross and
still say father, forgiveness,no, not what they do.
Why can't God require that ofus?
That our heart, we apply thepressure needed because of

(01:00:17):
whatever's going on, but we'renot retaliatory.
That's the difference.
Doesn't matter what they do,we're not retaliatory.
That's the difference betweenconviction and correction,
judgment and condemnation.
I'm not retaliatory and I'm notjudgmental and critically
condemning them, saying there'snothing redemptive left with

(01:00:38):
them.
Here now, you rebels, must webring water to the rock?
And then God brings it outanyway.
But I want to see this verse,number 12.
Then the Lord spoke to Mosesand Aaron.
Moses and Aaron, because youdidn't believe me, to honor me
in the eyes of the children ofIsrael.
Therefore, you will not bringthis assembly into the land
which I've given him.
So look at Moses, disqualifiedhimself as a leader, but God was

(01:01:00):
still faithful to the people.
See, we have to learn how toapply the principles, ladies and
gentlemen, into our world.
We've got to learn.
Moses, in one situation,strikes the rock, has the right
spirit.
The other time, he strikes therock, has the wrong spirit, has
the wrong spirit.
God deals with the man, stillfaithful to the people Both
situations.
Even when the people wrong, godwas still faithful to the

(01:01:20):
people.
Both times Moses did it right,one time wrong.
The other God was stillfaithful.
What does that do?
That lets me know, my faithdoes not need to be in men and
women, it needs to be in theLord.
But I need to hear God.
So I know him, so I know thevoice of the shepherd in the
under shepherd, so I know whatto follow and I know my Bible.

(01:01:42):
So I'm not operating in illegal, unethical, immoral or
unbiblical principles.
If they're operating in that, Ican't follow that.
I will lovingly step back andsay I can't follow that.
Why it's not in the word?
It's wrong, it's illegal, it'snot okay.
And the other part, ladies andgentlemen, if you have a pastor
that's driving you and you'reburnout, you got to go have a

(01:02:03):
talk.
I can't do this.
I don't feel a call to that.
Well, how dare you?
You're only human.
You can only do what God'sgraced you to do.
And if you can't do it, thenyou can't do it.
You got to find a place wherethey'll shepherd you.
What does a shepherd do?
He calls, and if it's Godyou'll be graced to do, are you
with me?
But then, on the other hand,you got to be responsible enough
to know.
Hey, you can call the man ofGod a devil, but it's God, are

(01:02:26):
you with me?
But you can call the man of GodGod, and it's actually the
devil.
You have to know God foryourself, one of the things that
you can't.
That's the reason why God, whenJesus talks about how, if you
offend one of my children thatdon't know, it's better for you
to cast a millstone, or put amillstone around your neck and
throw yourself off into thedepths of sea, than is to offend
one of my little ones, why didhe say that?

(01:02:47):
He said that because they don'tknow any better.
And does it happen in churchesOf it happen in churches?
Of course it does,unfortunately, and I'm sorry if
you've been abused.
I'm sorry if you've beensubjected to tyrant pastors and
pastors.
I'm sorry if you've beensubjected to people that didn't
treat you right and you did theright thing, and then they're
trying to stone you.
You're doing everything Godasked you to do and then they

(01:03:08):
want to kill you.
See, people, if we would startlooking through it, through the
other person's eyes, we'd lookat it differently.
If we look at pastors andrealize the stresses they have
to have to follow God, have todo what they have to do, have to
share the hard thing.
See, a lot of people don'tthink about this.
Pastors don't.
Even people don't realize, whenpeople leave their church, the
impact it can have on them.
Not that they don't need togrow and develop.

(01:03:30):
And I'm just saying if we sawit through someone else's eyes,
if we walked a mile in theirshoes, I mean, I think I think
about someone like Coach MikeTomlin those of you that are
watching from Pittsburgh here,you know, and how, man, if I was
the head coach man, I'd bedoing this.
If I was the head coach, Iwouldn't have ran that play.
It's easy to say that whenyou're at home eating popcorn
and hot wings and he's downthere with 80,000 fans screaming

(01:03:52):
, with his job on the line andhis finances on the line and his
future on the line and all ofthat, he's got to make the right
call and he's got peoplescreaming here and this person
and it's all on him.
It's easy to make the decisionwhen you don't have any skin in
the game and I'm saying that forboth sides pastors that are
driving the sheep it's easy tosay do, do, do, do, do, not, do,
do.
Now, understanding there'sthings in their world that

(01:04:13):
they're battling with.
You have to lead the people,you have to be, you have to have
a heart for those people andsome people ain't going to want
to go and some are going to wantto go.
But some people beat thembecause they got they were
trying to build their kingdomand not the kingdom of God.
So they beat the people.
But then, on the other hand,you have people that the pastor
is doing the right thing andhe's wanting to say the right
thing and he's loving them andpreaching the word, but then
they don't want to hear it andthey don't want to grow and they

(01:04:34):
don't want to develop.
So now they're going to pick upstones and stone the pastor.
It's amazing If you hopped intheir shoes for a minute both
side pastors hop in thecongregants feet.
I think every pastor every oncein a while should have to go
back to being a congregant againfor a year.
I think it'd be outstanding.
Find what it's like to be intheir shoes and then you can
also forget.
You can't really do this, butif every person had to be a

(01:05:01):
pastor for a month, it's kind oflike the story you ever watched
Bruce Almighty when he said,man, if I was God I'd do it.
So God gave him all his powersand if you ever seen the movie,
I mean it drove him crazy.
He's like, oh my gosh, how doyou deal with these people?
It's easy Watch this.
Watch this.
Pastors that don't have a heartfor people and people that
don't have a heart for pastors.
Watch this.
The reason why we throw stonesat one another?

(01:05:22):
Because we only considerourselves.
We only see it through our ownlens.
But if we began to look atother people and see it through
their eyes, see it through theirlens, do you understand what a
pastor goes through?
Do you understand the pressuresthat they face?

(01:05:43):
People?
Do you understand that?
Do you understand what it'slike to have to make decisions
and to tell people they're wrongand then have your name drug
through the mud?
Do you understand they're doingthe right thing?
They're doing what?
Do you understand what it'slike to be like Joseph, to to do
the right thing and run awayfrom the woman?
She rips off his clothes, heleaves her and still end up in

(01:06:04):
prison?
A lot of people don't know whatthat feels like.
You'd be a lot easier on yourpastor If you walked a mile in
his shoes or her shoes.
Pastors, do we remember whatit's like to follow people, to
follow leaders?
Do we understand?
Do we remember what it's like?
Do you understand?
Most of them see with you, withpastors, that's their job.
Other people have jobs andthey've got all these things

(01:06:24):
that are going on in their worldand they have all these things
happening.
And then you got to do this andthis and this and this and this
and this.
We're just adding more on them.
Do we remember what it feelslike to be bi-vocational?
I got to work a job and I gotto pastor.
I got to help the church and Igot to be at my son's game.
And I've got this going on andI've got a deadline.
Do we remember?

(01:06:45):
It's important that we startlooking at it through one
another's lenses?
Take the lenses off of you, putthem on me, take mine off, put
them on you.
Let's see through each other'seyes just for a moment.
We'd stop being so hard on oneanother and that's why I said
there's two sides, and I knowsome people are going to be, no
matter what you say, they're notgoing to be happy.
But listen, I'm secure enoughto know that what I'm sharing

(01:07:08):
right now is 100% from thespirit of the Lord, because more
pastors are falling.
From the spirit of the Lord.
Because more pastors arefalling, we're seeing the
humanity.
I'm going to talk about that ina minute.
And when I say in a minute, thenext episode pastors are
falling.
People get familiar with pastors.
You know a lot of people don'trealize how privileged you are
to be able to.
If you're walking with a pastor, you might.
If you walk close enough to anypastor you're going to see

(01:07:29):
they're just flesh and bloodlike you.
You're going to see them.
I'm not talking about sinfulthings, but sometimes what'll
happen is you can becomefamiliar with them because
you're close to them.
And let me say this as I closeIf you've been privileged to
walk with your pastor or with aleader or with your boss, just
because you see some of theirhumanity, what do I mean by that
?
You might be close enough torealize, man, their breath

(01:07:51):
stinks, just like anybody else.
If they don't bathe, they stink.
They're human.
Everybody else doesn't get thatclose to witness their humanity
.
And if you're not careful, youmay say, yeah, they just like me
, and then you'll begin todisgrace them and you'll begin
to discredit them and you'llbegin to bring them down to your
level, which what I mean bythat.
Watch this.
They are on your level.

(01:08:11):
You begin to take that officeand say I don't need to honor it
anymore, they're just John.
And that's why I believe it'salso a dishonor for pastors to
say don't call me pastor.
Oh, you don't have to call mepastor, just call me Willie,
just call me Don, just call meLisa.
No, no, no, no.
Watch this, watch this.
Your title preserves the natureof your relationship, preserves

(01:08:36):
the nature of your relationship.
That's why, when I see mydoctor, he ain't Jim, it's Dr
Jim.
Why it reminds us this is whywe're together.
Every relationship that youhave, from the time it comes
into your life, you need toclassify it.
You need to determine thenature of the relationship from
the jump.

(01:08:56):
If that person is in your lifeto be your pastor, they're not
there to be your friend.
If they're in your life to beyour doctor, they're probably
not in there to be your friend.
It doesn't mean they're notfriendly, but it's hard to walk
in both.
So every relationship thatcomes into my life, I ask the
Lord why are they in my world?
So then, therefore, I preservethe nature of that relationship.

(01:09:17):
You know, ladies and gentlemen,I hope this has been a blessing
to you.
I hope that you've heard myheart today and I really want
you to understand my heart inthis.
I mean and I mentioned thisonly for the sake of I know what
it's like to be a pastor.
I know what it's like to dealwith the stress as a pastor, and
I'm not excusing anything.
We have to own what we've owned.

(01:09:37):
But the things that havesurfaced about Pastor Rod
Parsley, Pastor Greg Locke ifyou've been around long enough
and in the media at all BishopTD Jakes I mean I can go on and
on Ravi Zacharias see all thesemajor generals struggling.
There are some issues CrefloDollar, dr Creflo Dollar that
came up, I mean, and the realityis, is everybody's just men?
There's just men and women justlike you and me they battle

(01:10:01):
with.
The only difference is theyhave a platform that makes their
nakedness more apparent to all.
And if we're not careful and Ifeel that it's just the heart of
the Lord right now If we're notcareful, we will begin to
become critical, condemnatory,judgmental over people that God
wants to redeem.
And let me tell you something nomatter what man or woman of God
that they fell.
You have to learn to separatethe man from the mantle.
The only reason why they gettheir revelation, and all that

(01:10:23):
is because God graced them.
If God would have given that toyou, you could do the exact
same thing.
They're just graced to do itSeparate the man from the mantle
.
The man still, or the woman,still, needs to be redeemed.
They still need to be loved,they still need to be cared for,
they still need all thosethings.
But that doesn't mean theydon't need to be accountable,
because to whom much is given,much is required.
So it doesn't mean they don'tstill need to be accountable for
what they need to do.
But we need to have hearts thatare open, saying, hey, listen,

(01:10:45):
if they've fallen short, where'sthe good news for them?
Just like they gave it to youand me.
We need to offer the good newsto them.
Do they need to repent?
Do they need to be accountable?
Of course you see what's goingon with Dr Tony Evans.
Don't tell me you haven't beenblessed by Dr Tony Evans.
Don't tell me you haven't beenblessed in some way by one of
those ministers that I'vementioned that have all have had

(01:11:06):
a fall from the grace of God,and when I say a fall from grace
, of course they're from theirposition and what we do, oh man,
now it's almost like can't hearnothing from them.
Wait a minute.
They're still a man or womanand they need to hear the good
news now.
We need to give them back thelove that they've showed to us
for so many years.
We need to now say God, thankyou for using them.

(01:11:29):
I'm going to make it availableto them if they want to receive.
Now.
There are some that will notrepent.
There are some that will notchange.
There are some that are goingto go and say you know what,
forget it all, I don't care.
I'm going to do what I'm goingto do.
But, ladies and gentlemen,please hear me when I say this.
Let's not be the one to put ourfoot on their jugular and stomp

(01:11:51):
the life out of them whenthey're looking for another
chance.
When they preached to you andgave you that revelation and
that insight, you hopped on anyone of the social media pages,
their webpage, went to one oftheir conferences and they were
there and poured their heart andsoul and life out to you.
The question is, can we now giveback to them the opportunity to
be redeemed and restored.
Some won't repent, but that'sbetween them and God.

(01:12:13):
But I want my heart to be right, and you know what?
I pray to God that not one ofus ever falls and ever has a
moment where we fall from grace.
But I hope that, man, if I giveit to others, if one day I
should ever need that, thatsomebody would say I still
believe in you.
Here's another chance Because,listen, the same the Bible says
blessed are the merciful, forthey shall obtain mercy.

(01:12:36):
How you give mercy to othersdetermines, determines how God
will give it back to you.
And listen, there's going tocome a point in your life and in
my life.
We're all going to need aself-compassion.
You may never be on that levelwhere you need it, where you're
exposed in front of anybody, butit may just be your marriage,
it may just be your kids, it mayjust be wherever it could be
your job.
You made an error.
They could have to you becauseyou are merciful to others.
Now, when you need mercy, Iwill give it to you.

(01:12:57):
Man, I feel the heart of theLord right now.
It's so important, ladies andgentlemen, that we give that
heart back to people.
I feel bad for all those men andwomen that are going through.
Some may not repent, they maynot, and they're wrong.
If they did wrong, they didwrong.
I'm not excusing it, but whatI'm saying weren't you ever
wrong?
Didn't you ever drop the ball?
Didn't you ever fall short?

(01:13:18):
Didn't you ever make a mistakeand wish you could take it back?
Well, what did you want someoneto do for you?
And if they're willing, and ifyou wanted someone to do that
for you, why don't you extendthat now?
I believe there's peoplewatching even right now.
There's people you need toforgive.
My good friend, pastor GaryMetric.
He says this all the time.
He said forgiveness doesn'tmake them right, it makes you

(01:13:39):
free.
It doesn't mean that we'reexcusing or condoning and saying
, oh, it's okay, they're a manof God, it's all right.
No, it's not.
What it is saying is it's wrong.
But you know what?
God wants to restore you andbless you.
God wants to honor you and Godstill wants to give you another
chance if you're willing toallow him into your heart.

(01:14:01):
So I just want to encourage youwith that and I just want to
take a minute.
I want to pray for you as I getready to wrap up here and I
hope this has been a blessing toyou I'm going to come back on.
I might even try to get ontomorrow, but I'm coming on
really soon because I have apart two, three and four.
Listen, I have so much more thatI want to share with you.
I hope that you'll take aminute and just like, subscribe,
follow, share all that goodstuff and let others know about

(01:14:23):
this.
I'm going to talk about Jesus,the time when he drove out the
temple and why that was okay.
I'm going to talk about Miriamand Moses and how we can become
familiar with people in ourlives.
I'm going to talk about how toaddress pastors, leaders and
bosses when they are in errorand when we don't understand,
but they want us to follow.
I'm going to talk about familyin ministry and the dynamics of

(01:14:47):
that and how you operateaccordingly, being how Jesus
dealt with that with his ownfamily.
And the last thing I'm going totalk about as well is pastors
that are rebuking other pastors.
How do we address anotherpastor that's in the public?
There was a situation thathappened recently.
I'm going to talk about it,about the pastor that had the
mail on the stripper pole andall of these things that
happened, and then the pastorcalled him out in front of
everyone.

(01:15:07):
Was that correct or was it not?
I'm going to give you somedetails on that as well.
I have so much more to sharewith you that I believe, is
going to be a blessing to you.
And, like I said, if you haven'tgotten the podcast as well, go
to your podcast store, download.
This will be on the podcasthere within the hour.
It'll be uploaded to it.
This is literally live.
It's not live to tape.
This is live.
I am on here right now.

(01:15:28):
This is live.
I am on here literally, and Iwant to thank you all so much
for your time and I want to prayfor you before I go, and I feel
the presence of the Lord onthis.
You know, I feel the heart ofGod.
You know, because sometimespeople don't understand.
There's so many pastors andministers and people out there
and both have been hurt.
Both have been hurt.
Pastors have been hurt bycongregants and leaders or
people, and then you have peoplethat have been hurt by pastors.

(01:15:50):
I'm not excusing either one.
What I'm not excusing eitherone.
What I'm trying to do is giveyou the biblical understanding.
Spiritual authority is real.
It's powerful.
I believe in it too.
I believe totally in spiritualauthority With all of my heart.
I believe spiritual authorityis huge.
There's safety in it.
But can it be abused?
Yeah, just like anything else,it can be abnormally used, used
in the way it wasn't intended.

(01:16:11):
How do we know?
That's what this is all about.
It gives you the understandingso you recognize what spiritual
authority is, for, why God gaveit to shepherd our souls, to
show us the word they'resupposed to be in it.
So then they can give you theword and when there's errors and
adjustment, or maybe there's aword from God that you need,

(01:16:32):
they can go and seek the Lordand you come and you ask them
and what do they do?
They bring you a word in dueseason, prophetic word to speak
to you.
If it's confirmation, youfollow.
But it should never be used asa way to condemn and judge, to
where people can't think forthemselves, they're afraid to
say that they don't agree, or beable to process it through
their own laboratory and comeback with a word, or follow the

(01:16:53):
word blindly and all thesethings.
When it's not scriptural, it'sjust something that they felt
God said to them man, I mean, wegot to get out of this stuff
y'all.
We got to get out of this.
One of the things I've learnedas a pastor I run my ministry
with an open hand.
People come and go as they want.
Yeah, we have a culture and wehave a situation.
Not too long ago I went tosomebody and gave them some

(01:17:14):
input and they were so scaredhey, but I'm trying to follow
what God gave me.
I said listen, listen, I'm notGod.
I'm giving this to you, sayingconsider it.
If it fits, you, take it, if itdoesn't, don't.
I don't want you to follow, andany pastor worth their salt
should be willing to simply saythis I'm going to give you what

(01:17:39):
I feel God is saying.
If it's for you, follow it.
If God is in it, follow it.
If he's not, don't follow it.
Period.
Every pastor or leader orpreacher should have enough in
them to say those words to youwith integrity period.
If it's not God, don't followit.

(01:18:02):
You're not going to go to hell.
And even if you thought, evenif you didn't know it was God
and you chose to go in adifferent direction, you're
still not going to go to hell.
I'm going to give you a quickstory.
I know I said I'm going to letyou go, but I feel something on
this right now.
Real Talk, kim.
You ever heard of Real Talk Kim?
This is something she sharedpublicly, so I know she wouldn't
mind it.
She said she found this guy andshe was at Pastor Rod Parsley's

(01:18:25):
church.
She found this guy and PastorRod said I see you looking at
that guy.
You don't need to be looking athim, I'm not going to bless it.
She got off the plane.
She said, went and married theguy in total rebellion.
This is her story, true story.
Went and married him totalrebellion, I think if I have it
right.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but Ithink she said within like six
months to a year they weredivorced.

(01:18:46):
She said it was the worstdecision she ever made, but she
just rebelled and went and didit anyways.
Well, does a pastor pick yourwife?
No, but if you have a goodpastor that loves you and
they're showing you some redflags, you might want to take a
minute and ask yourself ifthat's God.
You might want to take a minuteand say Lord, confirm it, show
me, and then, if it is, you,honor that pastor.

(01:19:06):
She went and did it anyways.
The reason why I'm saying thisis this she went and did it
anyways, got a divorce.
God's using that woman in greatways.
I mean, she's her platformbigger now than I ever was.
I mean, man, you know that'swhat God did.
What I'm saying is that even ifyou miss it, god will still
redeem you.
So we have to give people theopportunity to make decisions

(01:19:28):
and not make them feel so guilty.
I hate that fearful spirit thatbinds up people, makes them
feel like, oh my gosh, if Idon't follow every single jot
and tittle of every pastor thatcomes to me, they tell me I
better have fruit loops forbreakfast and I better follow it
.
If I don't do it, oh my gosh,I'm going to hell.
I've seen so many good peopleget burnt out and get hurt and

(01:19:50):
be destroyed because they wereafraid to say you know, that
ain't for me.
No, I don't.
I don't feel a call to go toAfrica with you.
Yeah, but if you don't go there, I ain't never calling you
again.
Then don't call me.
It's okay, cause God didn'tcall me there the first time.
Y'all better hear what I'msaying.
Yeah, but if I don't follow thepastor.
Follow the who.

(01:20:10):
See, are you following the manof the mantle?
See, the pastor can tell you.
You need to go to Africa, youneed to go to Africa, you need
to go to Africa.
If God didn't call you toAfrica, you can't go to Africa.
Why won't call you again?
Please don't, because Goddidn't call me.
But if God calls me, I willanswer.
See, we have to give people thatleverage and that ability and
that room to be able to hear Godfor themselves.

(01:20:33):
We can't be insecure with that.
Even leaders.
You don't even have to be apastor, a leader.
You got to be secure enough toknow when God leads you and when
he doesn't.
And if he's not leading them,well then let him go.
And if he is leading them, thenGod will send you the right one

(01:20:54):
.
Did you hear what I just said?
If he is leading you and youare telling him, hey, I feel
that you should come with me toAfrica, and they're not willing
to answer it, then God will picksomebody else.
But we don't need to condemnthem or judge them or make them
feel bad or guilty, that they'regoing to hell and all these
types of things which I haveheard Grew up in some of that.
And man, that's rough.
It took me years to come out ofthat.
And man, that's rough.

(01:21:15):
It took me years to come out ofthat.
And I'm all about honor, man,all about it.
But I am not about God's people,god's pastors and choice
ministers using control and fearand manipulation to get people
to do what they want becausethey can't get the people to
move the way they want.
No, that's wrong.
And I'm not about peoplecontrolling and beating up
pastors and talking about highpastors backs and and creating

(01:21:38):
these little coups and thingslike that and bringing rebellion
and speaking negatively andputting bad thoughts into
people's minds about pastorsbecause they didn't like
something that was biblical orsomething that was the culture
and so they decided to bring upthem lie about a pastor.
I don't agree with that eitherand God will judge both.
See, I'm not here to say right,wrong as far as like, well, I'm
going to judge this person,judge that person, judge this

(01:21:59):
person, judge that person.
I'm going to call a spade aspade, but what I'm saying is
both sides.
So you can't condemn allpastors.
You can't condemn all people inthe pews or in the church or in
the seats.
It's both ways, but see if wecan get the right biblical
understanding and perspectiveand narrative.
But see if we can get the rightbiblical understanding and
perspective and narrative.
Ladies and gentlemen, everythingcan be different.
Everything can be different, soit's all about how we go about

(01:22:19):
it, and honor is something thatwe have lost in the kingdom of
God.
So, last but not least, I wantto pray for you and ask God's
blessing upon your life, that'sthat God will give you wisdom.
And if you need healing rightnow in your heart from maybe
you've been hurt, don.
And if you need healing rightnow in your heart from maybe
you've been hurt, don't throwthe baby out with the bathwater.
I don't care if you're a pastorthat's been hurt, a minister

(01:22:40):
that's been hurt or maybe it'sbeen.
You're a person that's beenhurt by a pastor or leader.
Don't get rid of the church.
Every pastor is in a bad past,just like every.
You know I have some.
I have a great restaurant Ilove going to.
I'm not going to mention whichones they are, but I love
steakhouses, and if they dosomething wrong, man, I might
still have to go back, cause Imean they might get it right the

(01:23:02):
next time, but if they keepserving bad food, eventually
I'll find another place to go.
But you know what?
Don't just because you had yougot hurt, don't shut down
everything, cause, listen, Idon't know who this is for and
I'm trying to get out of here,but I really sense this.
Sometimes the devil will hurtyou the first go round because
the man or woman that God issending to you is coming in this

(01:23:23):
season and the devil wants youto say fine, I'll shut.
See, the devil was playingchess with you for years.
He knew you were coming intothis moment, right now that I'm
talking to you about.
And this is the time when God'ssending the right man, the
right woman, the right people.
And you could be at a point nowwhere you're like forget it,
I'm done, I'm not talking tonobody, no more.
And now the perfect personcomes to your life and you'll

(01:23:45):
shut it all down because you'renot gonna deal with them.
I'm not doing that ever again.
And the devil says gotcha, becareful that you don't allow
your past to dictate how you seeyour future.
Sometimes that's a good thing,but, man, keep a clear lens in
this season.
I don't know who this is for,but God says I'm bringing the

(01:24:06):
right pastors.
Pastor, I'm bringing the rightpeople.
Don't allow what you have facedand what you have been through
to cause you to say I'm notgonna listen to nobody, I'm not
gonna open my heart.
Because this is the season Ihear the spirit of the Lord
saying that I am sending theright people to you.
I'm sending the right people,and don't allow what you have
been through and what you haveexperienced to shut down your

(01:24:27):
heart and cause you to abortwhat God is doing for you in
this season.
So just lay your hands on yourheart, on your mind.
Put season.
So just lay your hands on yourheart, on your mind, put one on
each, if you want.
And I just want to pray for you, father, in the name of Jesus.
I pray for every person that'swatching Pastors, ministers,
those that are listening bypodcast, whenever they hear this
Father, you've ordained it thatthey heard it.
And I hear the Lord saying thatyou didn't watch this or listen

(01:24:47):
to this by happenstance, butGod says he ordained it because
this is why, hear me, there aredoors and new relationships that
are coming, and God says whatyou are learning today is going
to set you up to be healthy fortomorrow.
God has trained you and there'ssome of you that you're going
to go back and you're going tospeak to other people that have
been wounded and hurt and showthem the right way.

(01:25:07):
There are some of you that arepeople that have followed
pastors, that have been hurt,that God's going to make you a
pastor and that you would lovethe people the correct way, like
David did with Saul.
There's some of you that arepastors that have been hurt by
people.
Maybe they've gotten toofamiliar with you and you're
saying I don't want to deal withthese people anymore.
But God says I'm sending theright people to you in this
season.
That's going to help yourministry grow.
It's going to help youaccelerate.

(01:25:27):
I'm sending the right businessto people, to you, and what I
showed you and what I've taughtyou and what I'm teaching you
right now are the principles Ineed you to apply.
Do not allow the scars of yourpast to become infected wounds
again.
I'm going to say that againDon't allow the scars of your
past to become the infectedwounds again.

(01:25:48):
Don't reopen those.
Yes, it happened.
It wasn't right.
God understands, but get thehealing and develop the
appropriate boundaries.
Don't build walls.
Have healthy boundaries.
God says right now I'm pouringin the oil and the wine and I'm
bringing healing to you.
Be open to what I'm doing, forI am sending the new, I am

(01:26:11):
sending new people.
I am sending a new wave ofpeople.
I am sending new leaders.
I am sending a new wave ofpeople.
I am sending new leaders.
I am sending new things intoyour life, man.
I feel the prince of the Lord,and God says don't allow what's
happened back there to skew yourvision now.
And so, father, I pray yourblessing, your healing, your
restoration upon your people now, in Jesus name, amen, amen,

(01:26:40):
amen, amen.
Listen, I feel the anointing ofthe Holy ghost.
My good God, I hope that youreally will take a minute and
like, subscribe, follow, share.
I really believe this is a wordfrom God.
I have several other things.
I hope that you will tune inand listen.
I'm going to come again.
If you haven't gone to our page, jay Tiffany Gilbert or another
level ministries, go and likeagain.
If you haven't gone to our pageJ Tiffany Gilbert or another
level ministries go and likethat so you can keep up to date
and follow it.
So then, when I'll put updateson there, let you know when I'm

(01:27:02):
coming on and keep you up todate on what's happening, but I
really believe this is a wordfrom God.
I believe pastors and peoplethat are watching you need to go
back and listen to this again,because I believe what I'm
sharing are principles that youare called to live in this
season.
That's gonna help you get towhere God has called you to be,
and there are many of you listento that prophetic word that
you've been wounded on eitherside, but God has not only

(01:27:24):
allowed you to walk through it.
Like Joseph, you're gonna comeout the other side and say what
the devil's meant for evil.
God has turned it around forour good, and I believe there
are many of you that have gonethrough some dark things.
People have done you wrong,lied on you.
I mean, you've suffered someserious, serious bites.
But you know I remember back inthe day the Lord spoke to me and
I've carried this with me whenPaul was bit by the serpent,

(01:27:44):
what the Lord spoke.
He said you can't stop the bite, but you don't have to allow
the venom to destroy you fromthe inside out.
And some of you God has allowedyou to process.
You've developed the antibodiesnow to where you've been bit.
The antibodies are now going todestroy the venom.
So, even when people bite you,the venom ain't going to bother
you no more.
You won't become bitter.
You're going to developgangrene on the inside.

(01:28:05):
You're not going to have any ofthat.
You're going to be completelyfine, right where you are.
And so God has allowed you toprocess those things, because
now he's gonna bring the rightpeople to you.
Whether you're a pastor, whetheryou're going to be a pastor,
leader, businessman,businesswoman, manager,
supervisor, ceo, wherever youare, god's allowed you to walk
through that.
Like Joseph, he's about toelevate your life.
This is a word for somebody.

(01:28:26):
He's about to elevate your lifeand as he elevates your life,
god is gonna bless you in asuper natural way, and you are
going to apply the principlesthat you have learned and you
are going to become better andnot bitter.
You are going to be a successand not a failure if you don't
allow the bites of the past tobecome infected wounds in your
present.
So learn what you need to learn.

(01:28:47):
God has given you theinstruction.
Go back and hear these thingsand watch what God will begin to
do.
If you haven't gone to ourwebpage anotherlevelchurch.
It's actually church, not comchurch.
Go there tomorrow night.
I'm so excited I've got a greatmessage for Father's Day.
I'm also going to beministering at Dr Connie Brooks'
Church Jubilee InternationalMinistries Sunday morning.

(01:29:09):
But tomorrow night I'll be atanother level, at our church, at
six o'clock.
I hope that you'll come out andsee us Listen.
If God puts it on your heart Idon't normally do this, but God
puts you on your heart and youwant to sow a seed into our
ministry, go toanotherlevelchurch.
I don't ask that of anybody,but if God lays it upon your
heart and you're saying, hey, Iwant to sow into the ministry,
to keep the ministry of anotherlevel going forward, to keep the
ministry we always run live, atleast weekly, you know, and
just so many different things.

(01:29:37):
We also have a great we're doingthis phenomenal thing on
Wednesday nights called CasketEmpty.
It teaches you the whole BibleC-A-S-K-E-T-E-M-P-T-Y.
It's an acronym from NewTestament Casket our Old
Testament Casket, new TestamentEmpty.
From New Testament casket ourOld Testament, casket, new
Testament empty.

(01:29:58):
And it's an acronym on eachphase of and how the scarlet
thread of redemption flowsthrough the whole thing and how
you can marry the New Testamentthe old.
It is outstanding.
We had our first week thisWednesday.
You can join at any time.
Hope that you'll come on outwith us on Wednesday nights as
well.
It has just been such a greattime.
So we're doing a lot of things.
We have our pregnancy center.
My wife and I are going to becoming on again talking about it

(01:30:18):
and what's happening there, ifyou'd like to support us with
that as well.
So many different things, butthank you all so much for all
that you've done for us and yourprayers and your constant
support.
So love you and appreciate youand thank the Lord for you, and
I'll be coming very, very soon,most likely.
I'm gonna try to get ontomorrow.
I'll let you know.
Keep us uh, keep a lookout onFacebook.
It's going to be great andyou're going to learn a lot and

(01:30:40):
I believe it's going to bringhealing and restoration to your
life.
I love you very much,appreciate you.
God bless you, have a wonderfulday and we'll see you next time
right here on dimensions.
Thank you.

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