July 18, 2024 • 73 mins
In this episode of Dirt Nap City, we dive into the enigma that is Andy Kaufman. This episode unravels the life and career of the comedic genius who blurred the lines between performance and reality. From his outrageous characters like Latka Gravas to his legendary wrestling battles with Jerry Lawler, we explore the tactics that made him a legend...and sometimes, a villain. Was he a brilliant provocateur or a hilarious troll? We separate fact from fiction, with a special guest, Jarret Berenstein, a writer, comedian, and producer was a featured performer on Fox television's standup show Laughs. Jarret hosted the radio show Famous Dead People on Radio Free Brooklyn.
He performed improv with the legendary Magnet Theater house team Junior Varsity for twelve years.
Find out what a real comedian thinks about the ground breaking Andy Kaufman!
Drop us a quick text and we’ll reply in the next episode!
Dirt Nap City is the podcast about the most interesting dead people in history.
Subscribe and listen to learn about people you've heard of, but don't know much about.
Someday we'll all live in Dirt Nap City, so you should probably go ahead and meet the neighbors!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex (00:06):
Hello, everybody.
Welcome to another episode ofabout interesting dead people.
I'm here with my buddy Kelly
Kelly (00:17):
Man, it got hot. I'm so bummed if you live in
Alex (00:21):
Texas. It's miserable this time of year, but who
listening to this? I mean,this could be a fall episode.
one still hot probably inTexas. Hey, Kelly, I want to
Kelly (00:37):
Oh, yes, pink flocks, our new Patreon supporter.
Alex (00:42):
think is a flower. Did you know that?
Kelly (00:45):
I did not know that did not know that kind
Alex (00:47):
of flower or something.
Okay, Pink
Kelly (00:49):
Pink is our newest Patreon supporter. And if you
or another thing you can donow is in the description
you can click to send us amessage immediately from your
anybody do that, because wejust activated this feature on
(01:10):
works, you could be the firstone if you send us a message
we will send you something inthe mail.
Alex (01:17):
But keep in mind the show still isn't live. So if
we're saying we're not goingto, in real time respond to
still
Kelly (01:26):
this This isn't like a podcast booty call? No, no.
podcast. So wouldn't itpodcast booty call guarantee
Alex (01:35):
that's already a podcast? Hey, I want to
Kelly (01:41):
Okay, who's that? Oh, wait, there's a guy here.
Alex (01:44):
As you know, we have this podcast is about
it's not the first andprobably not the last podcast
And it strikes me that theremight be a lot of people
who maybe this is their secondfavorite podcast about
have here, the host of thepodcast, famous dead people,
(02:11):
Jarrett Berenstein Hello,
Unknown (02:14):
how's it going, guys?
Alex (02:16):
So you had a podcast from 2017 to 2020? About
Unknown (02:22):
That is correct. That is correct. So the premise of
invite comedians on to pretendto be deceased people from
questions, they would have toimprovise funny answers to the
famous people about their lives.
Alex (02:41):
And your last podcast was like a week before COVID
It was
Jarret (02:46):
not. It was not a coincidence. I had nothing to
was fortuitous. It wasfortuitous. For months, I was
needing to cut down on someprojects that I was doing. And
all the math of how much timeand energy I was putting into
(03:09):
lot of work for for the kindof show that it was. And we
thing that's gotta go, youknow. And not only was it a
freed up a lot of my time. AndI was able to do other
consuming. But then also COVIDhappened. And I was like, Oh,
I have to worry about that.
Alex (03:30):
Yeah, yeah. And then you've had a couple of other
right after that you got onone with a couple of your
anything that
Unknown (03:40):
is right Is this anything was a show where it
pandemic where we a couple ofcomedians that I knew we
together, when while wecouldn't be performing live.
fun doing it that we werelike, we think this might be a
putting out episodes, and theepisodes got a little bit
(04:02):
show was plagued by byinternal disputes between the
there was a whole behind thescenes drama going on where
about X, Y or Z we we kickedoff one of the members about
(04:24):
about around episode I thinklike, whatever the last
two guys on the podcast gotinto a fight together. And
well, I guess we're done.
Alex (04:37):
It's like being in a band.
Kelly (04:38):
We the last man standing.
Unknown (04:40):
Yeah, I could be the only one doing the show then
Alex (04:44):
So now you do have a show by yourself. Right?
Unknown (04:47):
I do. I started around during the pandemic I
of internal monologues where Iwould like see something on
of like, imagine I was beinginterviewed about that topic
about it. And so I startedanother podcast called
schedule whatsoever. I justput it in episodes whenever it
(05:11):
an experiment in if I don'tpromote something, will people
don't ever advertise like,Hey, new episode drops or
bring it up as if people askedme about it, and then I go,
my website. If people arepoking around on my website,
Alex (05:27):
Okay, well, great. So you're an experienced
Thank you so much for beingwith us. We're breaking our
done it a few times. Kelly,where we've both known. We're
think mostly the saints.
Kelly (05:44):
Yeah, we've done the st. St. Valentine. St. St.
episodes, a
Alex (05:51):
couple of others, saints mostly. And then there was one
the same person out of alldead people, we actually
the same week. It was aChristmas episode where we
Jarret (06:07):
Wow. Yeah. That's how you can tell you if you're
know, you guys were just onthe same wavelength.
Alex (06:13):
We're like born in 19, whatever. Oh, six in Illinois.
the same one? So we? We did.
Kelly (06:22):
And it was our most popular episode for a while.
it.
Alex (06:26):
Yeah, yeah. But today, we brought Jared on. Jared, in
And writer is also a touringcomedian. He's a comedian or
Unknown (06:38):
I actually just got into a conversation about this
the two and who's allowed tocall themselves a comedian and
themselves a comic. I don'treally parse out the semantics
Kelly (06:54):
better than the other, I don't know, higher rank.
Unknown (06:56):
I don't even remember what position the person I was
saying that you can be a comicwithout a comedian or vice
political. Like I know a lotabout politics very passionate
jive well with that stuff,either. You know, like what's
progressive or liberal orleftist or a Democrat? I'm
(07:18):
whatever Call me whatever youwant. You know, I don't care.
Alex (07:22):
I feel like comic was big for a while. Like you were
And then Jerry Seinfeld cameout with the movie comedian,
back to comedian documentary
Kelly (07:34):
and later he came out with the B movie and they
thank you for the courtesylaughter it
Unknown (07:43):
Oh, the lobby coming all day guys. I gotta reserves
Kelly (07:48):
me a dirty look when I say something like that.
Alex (07:50):
Well, I know that that's that's the cue that crickets
Sometimes I
Unknown (07:55):
woke up I was doing a show in a club that had an
thought somebody was likeheckling me. They hear this
somebody's phone. Like what amI? We fucking was? Wait,
Alex (08:09):
Yeah, it's like, it's like the the microphone that
there's nobody else. Right?
And that always happens likemicrophone squeals Yep. Well,
I want to talk to Jarrettour subject today is Andy
Kaufman. And I want to getat first, but then I really
(08:35):
want to get the opinions of asomebody also who's a little
bit younger than us whoaware of, of Andy Kaufman in
the in the original, like,happening and see. See how.
See how that all went? I'm
Unknown (08:55):
interested in hearing everything you guys
Abraham Lincoln. Yeah. Thedinosaurs, whatever. Yeah. I
generations.
Alex (09:09):
Yeah, yeah. Thank you.
We'll teach you everythingfavorite century, as we've
learned going on here is thegood run the 20th century
outside of the couple of worldout the world wars, it was a
hell of a century. I
Unknown (09:30):
mean, a lot of interesting stuff happened,
Alex (09:33):
if you add in the World War is not so great.
Kelly (09:37):
We have we have a lot of great movies because of the
have today. It's true. Yeah.
That's true. I mean, whatWorld War Two, yeah,
Alex (09:47):
yeah, it's like half of a giant
Unknown (09:49):
Mr. Via giant space in his resume. And every time
that, they would go whathappened here? It's like,
Saving Private Ryan there, butthat word doesn't exist. So
Kelly (10:00):
Right, right.
Alex (10:02):
So Andy Kaufman was kind of a product of the 20th
square in the middle in 1949.
unfortunately died in 1984. Soburns super bright, but not
very long. But totally60s. As you can imagine, a kid
(10:22):
born in 1949 grew up watchinginterviews, he's talked about
how he just wanted to climbworld. He grew up in Long
Island. And just in front ofWikipedia, we don't get too
much of our information fromoff off chance that we do.
(10:44):
Wikipedia said that he was hewas an entertainer at
children's birthday partyWhich is a little unsettling
in itself to have a nine yearbirthday party and be like the
the entertainment.
Kelly (11:04):
He also supposedly spent a lot of time in his
like just pretending like hewas live on a television show.
Unknown (11:13):
I mean, that's, you
Alex (11:15):
know, really resonated that really resonate
Unknown (11:17):
with 100% Exact without question, there is a
like, into a recorder. Yeah,but I gotta say, like a
yeah, a nine year oldentertainer at a children's
ideal, because that is likethe eighth. Like, if you could
(11:40):
be the entertainer, there's athing that happens in kids
is an adult, it's a differentperson. But if it's just a
kid is cool. He still speaksthe language. He knows we want
fart noises and you know whatsilly faces and stuff like
he probably crushed those kidsbirthday parties.
Alex (12:01):
Unless it was a 14 year olds birthday party and then
just be
Kelly (12:05):
Yeah, that's lame.
Yeah. 100% I would get beat upMonday. Yeah,
Unknown (12:11):
yeah.
Alex (12:12):
But he used to do he used to do all kinds of like
himself as an as anentertainer. He saw himself as
just wanted to be like in theTV didn't really concern
or even really being funny. Hejust wanted to entertain
(12:37):
he went to community collegefor a couple years and then
coffeehouse circuit. And hehad this one bit that he that
bit that he called foreignmen. Where he played like
country that he that he camefrom sounded like maybe kind
(13:01):
country where he would.
Kelly (13:04):
He said it was the island in the middle of the
Novia or Casper, Casper, AVIor something, and it was
the middle of the Caspian Seaor something like that. Yeah.
Alex (13:17):
And the point of this character was not to make fun
was more of to projectinnocence, right that to like,
and, and kind of kind of bethis innocent person. And he
But he would do him in his inhis foreign accents, accent
(13:42):
thinking that that was reallyhim. He morphed that into this
this Elvis impression. Andwhere it was a really good
full with the full costume andeverything. And then people
that they like, is this guyfor real? And so was he What
(14:02):
audience on? Its on its heelsa little bit, keep them
going to do next. I'm not surethe bid was funny. I mean, it
than the one joke, right?
Yeah. Like it was a probably awas that oh, I'm not really
this boring.
Kelly (14:22):
And I'm not really that funny.
Unknown (14:24):
Yeah. So if you're talking about like an open
like a comedy showcase show,usually the comics are getting
each. If it's professionalshow, usually it's closer to
smaller show, usually, like 10minutes. I mean, if you're on
sign up like really thatperson doing more than eight
(14:47):
potentially a disaster. Youknow, there are open mics that
where everybody got two and ahalf minutes, you know, just
precariousness of it. And Idon't know if we're jumping
think like this is the nuggetlike this is the thing that
was, was playing with theagreement that the performer
(15:11):
I'm doing a thing right now,versus this is me right now,
lying about? What is thehonest part of this? And
entertainer that has tostruggle with that, where we
read, you know, like, does anaudience understand what I'm
(15:32):
you would say, like, am Ishowing my cards too early? Am
the thing that Andy Kaufmanpioneered was, I'm not going
just going to do the thing.
And every and people can guesswant whether or not this is
real or not. And that was soalienated a lot of people. And
(15:54):
that's sort of like the, theentertainers is like, you
know, the payoff can be huge.
alienating your audience for along time, but it's painful to
long time to know that guys,there's, there's gonna be
we're not there yet. And
Kelly (16:15):
you just pull. They're so uncomfortable. Yeah, hurts.
Unknown (16:19):
It really gets there when there's like, no laughs
performer, I can't stand toomuch of that, you know, like,
go on a little bit too long inthe setup. There's always a
like, there's a joke. Come on,guys. I swear, I swear. But he
(16:39):
of performers who do like thattension. And, and yeah, the
that he was performing, sowilling to sit in that
was, it was so different, and,and really revolutionary.
Alex (16:58):
That's the thing is that I love that word tension, too.
so you said 10, to 20, butlike he was on Johnny Carson,
Unknown (17:09):
those are like five, late nights. That's right,
Alex (17:13):
minutes, if you don't have and so a lot of comedians
there, their best jokes,right? A lot of them don't
other. But you have to getthose kind of a greatest hits
But if all you're doing iswhat he was doing that six
(17:34):
lot of time. And for thoseaudiences that were used to
of the more standard,conventional comedians at the
audiences were not trained,like today's audiences are to
minutes, where he did a goodminute and a half with his
(17:56):
where he's putting on hisElvis costume. And then like
finally using the Elvis voice,but there might have been,
in that hole. And the jokesweren't even like a
Yeah. It was interesting. Buttheir jokes they were just
not who he says yes, the
Unknown (18:18):
thing is, like, there's such a payoff, if you
you can keep people investedif you can keep people on
a real gamble of just is thisperson bad? Or is this on
Kelly (18:34):
you'll have podcasters talking about you for four
that's, that's, that's a signthat he's succeeded is that
right? This
Unknown (18:43):
is the payoff. This is what he wanted was this.
Alex (18:46):
is the payoff. Well, he, one of his other famous bets
guys familiar with this MightyMouse been used to do where he
put on a record of the MightyMouse song and he would just
comes on. When he says here, Icome to save the day, and he
(19:08):
motion, and then he would goback into
Kelly (19:10):
awkwardness standing like like very awkwardly, and
Alex (19:13):
a three minute bit with basically that one joke. He
very first episode of SaturdayNight Live in 1975. That's
that uncomfortableness. Andsome people at the time
(19:34):
some people said this was awaste of everybody's time and
Unknown (19:39):
that's what's so cool about it is that the things
some things that at Kauffmandid where I was like, okay,
you're pushing it too far.
Man. You have to have a littleI don't know man, I actually
saw a really good time. Zega
Alex (19:54):
length of time where he all he did was read The Great
Unknown (19:59):
in life. In my opinion, you know, I actually
subtle call back to the MightyMouse. But I was at I was at a
a woman came out and she wasdressed kind of kind of
(20:19):
like a little bit hunchedback, you know, just kind of
and then all of a sudden akaraoke version of what sounds
playing and she's not doinganything, she's just kind of
her thing, you know? And thenyou start to realize that this
the movie, Aladdin, whereAladdin is explaining, you
(20:44):
and you know, one step aheadof the WEPA you know, and so
this girl like bopper log tothe song, you know, until she
think he's rather tasty, whichin the movie was said by like
rags and everything like this.
She milked it so hard. Thatdid, like there was in the
(21:04):
Mighty Mouse, but he comesthe entire thing listening to
the whole song. No words, notthis soundtrack. There's no
words. And then just still, Ide lightful. Did the crowd
like, oh, we loved it. WeAnd there's something also
(21:25):
about those bits that'swork every time. And so when
it works here with us, that's
Kelly (21:35):
together like you're part of something special.
stars aligned.
Unknown (21:40):
You can see that same bid at a different show and
so lucky that you got to be apart of the crowd that got it.
Alex (21:47):
you earn goodwill with the audience, they know who
But the very first time whenyou're an unknown, I mean, you
example, will have some crazysketches on when he was on
that just bombed. But he'scommitted to those sketches so
(22:11):
up thinking, well, am Imissing something and these
a good time making this. Andthen the next time you kind of
kind of get where he's comingfrom. But the very first time
riotous laughter,
Unknown (22:29):
there's a real danger that if you don't perform
audience, you might not playthat club again. You might not
opportunity to impresssomebody who had an
there is there is a real riskto being that kind of comedian
and isn't concerned aboutbeing a, you know, rapid fire
(22:56):
doesn't hit, you might havejust fucked yourself for
Kelly (23:01):
Well, let's on that, on that point. Tony Clifton,
funny or tell traditionaljokes. I mean, he just
insulted, insulted. So explainclearly explain who Tony
alter ego, I believe, of AndyKaufman and one of his
(23:25):
them came up with itoriginally. And somebody would
would do this. And then theywould both be that character
Unknown (23:36):
that I was I believe so. I believe so I believe
Alex (23:42):
Yeah, in fact, people thought they were booking Andy
this lounge singer, so hewould play like a week at a
we're getting Andy Kaufman sowe can get people in the door.
on vacation, Bob's muda wouldjust do it. And, and they
(24:03):
money Andy Kaufman was makingand they'd split it and it
way to the bank on that.
Unknown (24:09):
Well, I think there was a little smoke and mirrors
came out singer that, thatAndy Kaufman is this person
It's not there, you know, I'mjust not right
Kelly (24:20):
because he one time I he showed up at a show where
all of a sudden Andy's thereso it can't be Andy. But
another there's another personinvolved that's doing this. I
mirrors. Yeah. And
Alex (24:36):
the the Tony Clifton character was a boorish,
lounge singer, like acaricature of a terrible
racist, sexist jokes, and gotcompletely on the bad side of
they always thought that okay,there's the sweet guy under
(24:59):
bad. Have you guys seen themovie? Jim and Andy?
Unknown (25:05):
Yes, the documentary
Alex (25:07):
on? Yeah, it's the documentary about the making
seen it? Yes, I
Kelly (25:12):
have. I have not seen it. So there's a scene
Alex (25:15):
in that movie and they had they have all these behind
in 2017. But it was about themaking of man on the moon,
So there's the scene where JimCarrey gets invited to the
Well, I can't make it but canTony Clifton calm instead? So
(25:35):
wink. So Bob's a mood Akos asTony Clifton gets everybody
That's Jim Carrey. Don't youknow, don't give him a hard
cool. And at the end of theparty, Jim Carrey shows up and
they call the cops and they'relike, You got to get out of
(25:56):
got in here and they totallyturned on him. Yeah,
Unknown (25:59):
I mean, it's kind of you know, the bit I think the
documentary is that basically,Jim Carrey was in character
was Jim Carrey he was AndyKaufman on on stage off stage
(26:20):
personally as a as somebodyworking in entertainment
completely intolerable. It'slike everybody's working their
the lighting people, theassistant add the costume
these people's lives harder byinvolving them in your you
(26:41):
journey, you know, but I willsay this, like he got it like
Kaufman like the kind ofentertainment that he was, and
think you can really see alove that Jim Carrey has not
performer, but for the type ofcomedy that he pioneered.
Alex (27:03):
Yeah, I think you're right. He did drive everybody.
Unknown (27:06):
Yeah, I would have hated that.
Kelly (27:08):
Yeah, well, before we go, before we go further with
will, I do want to ask aquestion, because this is one
think about, I'm, I've grownup, you know, musically, I
out there. Like, you know, Idon't mind stuff that's really
whatever. I'm good with artfilms, generally, you know,
(27:32):
considered myself fairly wellcultured when it comes to film
like that. But then there's apoint at which it's just not
at which it's just not funny.
And it says sort of emperorYou know, the kids, the only
one that will point out thatbecause he thinks he's wearing
this great thing. I, I gottasaw Andy Kaufman live. But
(27:55):
watching from watching onMoon, you know, just watching
all these clips from eitherthink I would have been mad in
some of those situations, youup at a show and have Tony
Clifton show up and just bethat was cute for a minute,
but it's really not thatof my wife or my mom, or
(28:18):
whoever's, you know, and it'sto the show, and it's, you
made it route, you ruined itthat's, that's a weird trap I
feel like we fall into is thatyou don't like something?
Because then you're consideredknow, not like sophisticated
enough to understand it. Oh,unsophisticated. That's why he
(28:39):
doesn't get this joke. You
Unknown (28:42):
100%. You know, that's the that's the journey
who your whole shtick isalienating the audience. And I
This sort of like spectrum ofalienating your audience for a
there's, there's art thatspoon feeds you the
(29:03):
art, that spoon feeds it toyou so hard that it makes your
This sucks. And it's not evenentertaining anymore. You're
And then there's stuff thatalienates your audience so
get through it. I think aboutbooks like Ulysses, like who
like, how active is your brainhave to be and so I think that
(29:25):
entertainment is the thingthat challenges you a little
entertaining. And there's somuch great art like that. But
like, I want to be ultra, youknow, intellectual or I really
and this you know, this iswhere we get the musical form
(29:47):
you also have things that arelike we just need to be so
enjoy this. Anybody couldwatch this, you know, the
Furious, you know, stuff likethat. There's an audience for
all that stuff, it this onlyexists on a spectrum. But Andy
space man who's like, I wantto see how far I can go in
Kelly (30:11):
that out, right? Maybe the purpose of that is to
saccharin, you know, likespoon fed kind of stuff, maybe
Jarret (30:19):
you can do too much of that
Kelly (30:20):
we need a little, even if, even if you don't, I mean,
into politics now. But butkind of like politics is, you
people over here and peopleover here. And and most people
most people like to be in themiddle and like to be closer
you know, as long as you havesomeone over here, you've got
else, the whole thing tips,right? Yeah, I don't know. I
Unknown (30:42):
mean, there's also an argument to be made that the
his commentary on the type ofcomedian who he would see at
venues, you know, it's like,they're, I mean, we're still
there are comics who complainabout canceled culture like
And then there are othercomics who are like, well, the
(31:05):
racist or homophobic orwhatever, you know. So now,
character, that is a critiqueof, that's not a joke. You're
not a joke. You're just beingan asshole to that person in
Alex (31:19):
I think it's hard to look at this stuff.
watch YouTube videos. But whatwe don't realize is what it
yeah, he was breaking stuff atthe time, and he was breaking
at the time. And I remember.
So, you know, I was like,when when I was a kid, I was
(31:40):
like, 989 10 years old. And Iheard he was going to be on
something. And he played allhe was on The Dinah Shore show
and Dick Van Dyke Show wasn'trock comic where you had to go
and like, Look hard for hismainstream stuff. But he would
(32:04):
do is weird stuff. And I usedkid who just consumed that
stuff. That he I didn't knowknew it was cool. And it was
different. And that kind ofLetterman, later on that would
do that kind of you werelater on, where it's like, you
didn't know where this stuffthat kind of comedy a lot. A
(32:28):
lot more than like the Bobliners. I thought it was cool
at the time. Yeah, Nick,
Kelly (32:38):
my wife, please.
Unknown (32:39):
I think that there's a I think there's a direct
between Andy Kaufman's pushingthe boundaries and the
It's almost like DavidLetterman is sort of in
material or smile and winkingis is sort of making what Andy
(33:01):
more digestible, just likethat much more, so that we
Alex (33:07):
Well, in the fact that he had Andy Kaufman on was
goodwill with Letterman, likeif he endorsed it, this guy
see it, give it time, becausethere must be something cool
has a mind. That endorsementwas really important to me as
Letterman. And you know, eventhe David Letterman like
(33:30):
have. Andy Kaufman would wouldwould come on there from time
Unknown (33:36):
I didn't realize any compliment was on David
wonder it did not. It was notthe audience that is not the
Alex (33:47):
So weird part is he took this foreign guy character and
taxi. The sitcom taxi. Jerry,are you familiar with that
Unknown (33:59):
with taxi? Yeah.
Alex (34:02):
Yeah, it was a good show. Funny show. He had it in
only appear and half of theshows Andy Andy Kaufman, about
like 28 episodes a year. Hewould appear in about 14 of
he was no like he was the mostpopular one on that show and
(34:27):
which is the opposite of theway that Andy Kaufman wanted
they promised him a specialthat he would get this special
Andy's funhouse or somethinglike that, where he would get
that's the reason they did it.
But I think he was the highesteven though he was an only
half the episodes. Yeah, Ifamously had a deal in his
(34:48):
contract that said that Tonythe shows that didn't work out
so well and famously kind ofhe was on taxi was a
mainstream as mainstream as ita really big star through
taxi. Yeah,
Unknown (35:09):
I mean, yeah, his stuff was funny. It was even
little bit more digestible wasstill good, you know?
Alex (35:17):
Yeah. And, and this was around the same time that
becoming popular. So there'sanother one who was kind of
mainstream sitcom world. Soit's like I said, it's not
these weird people that wereright on your TV every week.
(35:37):
outside of those shows thatwere really Yeah,
Unknown (35:40):
I think Robin Williams is almost the
like the thing that was soweird about him was that he
so badly, you know, he wasgoing 1000 miles an hour,
different bits, this thing ledoff of that thing, that thing
physical. So out there thatany coffin was a little bit
(36:04):
I promise there'll be a payoffwhere as Rob leaves thing was
Here's this, you don't likethis? Here's that you don't
and keeping up with it waspart of the joke with Robin
Alex (36:17):
You know, they were friends.
Unknown (36:18):
I that didn't surprise me at all. Yeah,
Alex (36:21):
I mean, they were both kind of in that in that sitcom
a one performance where AndyWood said that he had his
he had this old woman and heput her on up on the stage.
the lady ripped off her wig.
And it was Robin Williams,
Kelly (36:41):
Mrs. Doubtfire.
Unknown (36:44):
That's where we got the idea. For that's true,
Kelly (36:47):
yeah, well, so in terms of in terms of what you, you
ago that you don't findyourself 100% comfortable
that build up? Sometimes. AndI'm the same way i i Really,
uncomfortable. And I thinkit's a personality thing. It's
(37:10):
Some people can't. How do you?
How do you do that? As ayou push yourself? Do you feel
like sometimes you do have tojust let the silence fall over
you? Or get booed? Or whatin those situations where, you
know, it's gonna be funny, ifdon't think you know, it's
gonna be funny you think mightworks. And sometimes it
(37:33):
doesn't. Like how do youperson who doesn't like to
mess up somebody's first date
Unknown (37:40):
It's difficult. You know, every comedian kind of
discovering what it is thatthey do that works the first
specific comics that yourespect a lot, but maybe it
Exactly. So you change it up.
When I first started doingan Eddie Izzard thing. That
didn't work. Then I tried tothing that kind of didn't work
(38:01):
a little bit, I was able tomy voice, you know. And part
of that is you you take frombeen developed by all the
great comedians that you havetension of is there a joke
coming? Is this a bit iscomedians do. But maybe we
(38:25):
only do it like salt andseason, you know, a part of
your dinner, whereas that wasAnd that was so interesting at
the time. But good analogy.
way of like, there arecomedians that I came up with
that 60% of their set was thesort of Andy Kaufman alienated
(38:50):
were some comedians who werelike, completely the opposite
concerned about getting theirlaughs and being as mainstream
they only did 1% of the AndyKaufman thing. But yeah, the
standup is not just in, infinding your voice but unable
handle bombing, because thatis the process of writing new
(39:14):
great already. Even whenyou're established. You still
once in a while. And thosejokes do not have 100% success
are. What I've noticed is thata really good season comedian
he gets that tension, he slowsdown. I shouldn't say he I
(39:35):
know, say, uh, you know,gender norms that we're trying
But the comedian then willslow down whereas you'll see a
silence, get that tension andthen start to speed up because
up the pace. I just started Ijust lost the momentum here.
Kelly (39:51):
Okay, good to know, good to know,
Alex (39:53):
what is uncomfortable these days? Is it politics? Or
person to know, what makesaudiences uncomfortable.
Unknown (40:03):
It's interesting because it really depends on
you do. As a comedian, I heardthis great analogy from Pete
audience is your instrument,but it's a different
imagine you're and you're amusician, and you show up to
But the next day, it's acello. And then the next day,
(40:26):
day, it's a harp, you know,part of your job as a comedian
audience you have. When I goon the road I'm generally
that have similar politics tome, so I can go hard on what I
even if they're not with me,100% they're on board for me
(40:47):
I just do that at any show,without any warm up
foreplay with the audience,it's a little bit more of a
of what you do is figure outwhat is this audience going to
comedians who are like, I'monly looking for that I'm only
trying to get that. But yeah,it is. It's a discovery
(41:11):
like I can't hear any moreshit about Trump, or sometimes
more shit about COVID. Or Ican't hear any of this
about their bodily fluids orwhatever. It really depends,
Kelly (41:25):
Yeah, I guess a lot of it is where where you are
you're in? And then like yousaid, it's it's do the people
you're all about? Or, youknow, is it just they came
no, it's not not what I wasthinking it would be? Yeah,
Jarret (41:41):
an audience's expectations is part of the
you have nothing, which makesit an uphill battle. But once
you're good. Versus if you aresuper famous, well
Chris Rock, the thing you'refighting against is what can I
(42:01):
these people already love me?
Because otherwise, comediansthey're like, they don't push
their own boundaries. Theymaterial anymore, because they
can get away with doingthe audience is already love
them.
Kelly (42:16):
Do you? Do you know who Dave bird is?
Jarret (42:20):
Oh, my God, that name sounds so familiar.
Kelly (42:22):
Let me
Unknown (42:24):
Oh, of course, Little Dickie. Yeah. Dave Burt, of
Kelly (42:28):
Have you ever watched his show called Dave? Yeah,
Jarret (42:31):
I love the show. Yeah,
Kelly (42:33):
that was one of the best shows. I mean, just so
I cared about every one ofthose characters. But yeah, I
Because because I'm a fan ofhis music. Generally, I think
little raunchy, just for thesake of being raunchy
know, that's part of the rapgame, as he might say. But I
(42:57):
definitely would do things totry things. And, and fail at
and, and it is music. Theguy's pretty, pretty genius
comedy. And then also, theshow is just very well
Dave audience, go check itout. I think it's on effect,
Unknown (43:18):
recommend, highly recommend Dave. And I mean, I
more specifically, comedy, butI think all of entertainment
you fail a lot until you findthe thing that works, one of
work with regularly, veryentrepreneurial spirit. And so
(43:38):
attitude towards thismaterial, try this does it
that with, you know, alright,well, I'm going to try doing,
going to try, you know, doinga show in this kind of
it's different. It'sinteresting. Yeah.
Alex (43:56):
Well, we've got the wrestling stuff that in his
of want to talk a little bitabout legacy. And some of the
alluded to some, but somepeople out there, they're
came to wrestling, that waswhere he kind of lost me, I
(44:19):
And the way he did it, too,with the way he would only
to these places, and he wouldproclaim himself the
of the world, and he madehimself this belt, and he
only before he I mean, onlyafter he would berate the
(44:40):
chauvinistic, sexist stuff,and rile the crowd up, and
then he he, of course, beatall these women and then he'd
he'd really done somethinguntil he met his match with
wrestler who kicked his ass anumber of different times,
those guys were friends. Inreal life, but what did you
(45:03):
part, which was a huge part ofhis life?
Unknown (45:06):
Okay, so I came up with this from very
a friend growing up, we wereall coming in her to be my
was the guy who loved anyconference. So he was like,
Now, the revelation that JerryLawler was in on this was a
the fact that he was in themovie man on the moon,
(45:27):
entire thing was stage wasrelatively new. And so when I
about Andy Kaufman with myfriend, the wrestling stuff
downward spiral was, this iswhere he lost everybody,
with wrestling for somereason. And he was being such
(45:47):
remember as a young person wholoved comedy, and who was
this and being like, are wesure this wasn't a bit? This
is his whole thing. He doesbits it doesn't tell
Alex (46:00):
you in wrestling is a bit. Yeah, exactly. Wrestling
right? Well,
Kelly (46:06):
you know, our very first, our very first episode
the Giant. And and we started,we started with Andre the
and we would watch Mid SouthWrestling. And my sister and
know, I'm using air quotesfake because, I mean, those
themselves. And they reallydid, you know, do some pretty
(46:30):
it was all staged and thingswould be planned out what he
was doing in that phase, hewanted to be the bad guy of
one that everybody booed andthe everyone hated. And there
classic classic, most of themmost of the time, they were
or, or Asian kid, they werenon white guys, sometimes they
(46:53):
would they would make thesepeople out to be these
think that's what he wanted todo. He created his own
everybody hated. And he justglommed onto it. And I think
or dopamine hit from peoplebooing him, you know, and
angry at him. And he The bid was
Unknown (47:13):
working, you know, like, the fact is, the only
this bit, was letting peopleknow that it was a bit because
problem is that what when doyou release the tension and
in on this? And he never didnever did after?
Kelly (47:34):
You're dead? Yeah.
Alex (47:35):
And that brings us to why when he finally when he
him. Yeah. Yeah. Nobodybelieved he was dead. Yeah,
looking at YouTube clips. Theother day, there was a clip
(47:56):
somebody had seen him in NewMexico, somebody like there
says, Oh, this could be him.
And he's probably livingone like Elvis was one of
these deals where nobodywould think that he would have
let us in on this by now, butthan or greater than 0%
Kelly (48:18):
You know what's gonna happen one day we're gonna
the news. And, and DonaldTrump's gonna just take his
Andy Kaufman.
Unknown (48:30):
I'm sorry, Andy, but you've gone too far. Sorry,
you shouldn't have left theParis Climate Accord. Andy.
Kelly (48:39):
would have gotten away with it, too. If it weren't
Alex (48:44):
Just the idea that he died of lung cancer, and he
like, the whole thing seemedlike a hoax. Not if not by him
thing was just really bizarre.
Is
Kelly (48:58):
that just sweet irony?
You know? Is that just the way
Alex (49:04):
suppose. Yeah, I
Unknown (49:04):
think I think the key to Andy Kaufman is you assume
to be fine. If it's not a bitwith everything that he's
over all of his material, hisentire oeuvre. Most of that is
to be bits. There's the famousskit on not Saturday Night
(49:26):
sound I live with MichaelRichards in it where he
Fridays. Yeah, yeah. pretendedto give up on a skit halfway
that Jim Carrey made, that bitis revealed to the audience
that was a that was acontroversy for I don't know,
(49:46):
who now say they were in onit, you know, kind of acted
back then. So like, you know,there's some controversy
to be like, it might have allbeen a bit it might not have
Alex (49:59):
and then he would go On to apologize for something
On one of those Friday'sthings he came back and he
the musical guests thepretenders. Have you seen this
pretenders are behind him. Youcan see Chrissy Hein, ready to
(50:21):
gentlemen, before I introducethe pretenders, I just want to
talks, he's goes on this thingabout health, and how you
shouldn't do drugs or and thisis on Fridays, the show was
And people are booing andthey're saying and he's just
(50:43):
this thing. And you know, andthen he finally says, I'm
pretenders aren't gonna beable to. And I think the
bed. They looked like wait,we're not playing. Wow, easy
determined to make people madall the you know how I just
(51:06):
the Tony Clifton character ifhe wanted to just make people
Unknown (51:09):
knew that one already. You know, he had to
You know, I was describinglike, every comedian has their
of this do I want to do? Whatis gonna be my voice? It's
doing that, not for himself,but for the world of comedy in
teaching us all what is toomuch of this, you know, I'm
(51:30):
I'm going to take salts, andI'm just gonna keep on pouring
know it's too much. And thefun thing about comedy is that
where it's too much, and thenyou keep on adding salt. But
you're like, Okay, well, it'sa, you know, we call it the
19, where you do a joke threetimes, and it's perfect. And
(51:51):
that it's kicking a dead horseuntil you get to the ninth
funny again, that is AndyKaufman's research that, let
Alex (52:00):
Wow. And I think 40 years later, that seems
don't think anybody thought hewas going to have the legacy
Absolutely. I mean, the factlike Kelly said that we're
know, at first when you startthinking about people today
obviously nobody that's doingwhat he did today, but I can
(52:23):
wanted to run by you to seehow close or how influenced
people in today's comedyworld, Jarrett? Well, the
I thought of kind of this,just beginning of cringe
five years after him. Therewas a guy on MTV named Tom
(52:46):
wheelhouse? Do you remember toremember Tom? Tom Green Green
he was he played in thatuncomfortable zone? A lot.
Unknown (52:56):
Yeah, for my for my personal taste. I think Tom
little bit too much. But hedefinitely had those moments
it is man, like, right there,you know, but he was also
boundaries as well. I thinkthat that is a I think it was
Kaufman and Tom Green. I wouldnot be surprised if Tom Green
(53:21):
and potentially wasconsciously trying to be an
Alex (53:27):
Sure. Kristen Shaw,
Unknown (53:29):
Kristen Shaw. I don't you know, I don't know I
in New York every once in awhile, she became obviously
But you know, I would see herdo shows every once in a
stuff that I used to seeChristians shall do was what
(53:51):
we're going to do this a lotuntil it's funny. Are you
used to do with her partnerChristian shawls? A horse?
Alex (53:58):
I'm not tell us about that. So
Unknown (54:00):
Chris is also a horse. I forget. I think her
Haller. I could be pronouncinghis name last name correct
a bit where he would juststart clapping and he would
Christian Charles, ChristianCharles a horse, Christian,
horse when she was sort oflike gallop back back and
(54:23):
five minutes, just that, justthat and it is it is peak,
to keep on doing this. Untilit's funny. I mean, you could
reading The Great Gatsbything. You know, was yeah,
Alex (54:39):
you can almost say your your wanting to the people to
us. And now that they've allleft now we can have some fun,
Unknown (54:47):
the fun is, I'm just gonna read more of this book.
Kelly (54:50):
exactly how the man on the moon movie starts. Right
beginning? I had never seen itand I just watched it
beginning where it's a falsebeginning where he comes out
alienates the audience says goaway, the movie is over. It's
(55:12):
Carrey doing this. And thenand then it's like a good two
out and says okay if you'restill here you're going to
get rid of the people hebasically said what you just
Alex the whole thing with likeJackass and all the all the
(55:33):
that would would just do allthe crazy stunts. I'm trying
you know, yeah. Well, yeah,yeah.
Jarret (55:42):
Yeah. Very,
Kelly (55:44):
that's very uncomfortable, too. But more
kind of way. Like, like,there's people that like to
that don't like to watch that.
I'm not
Unknown (55:53):
gonna go on the record and say that those guys
Andy Kaufman. But I do thinkthat even if they were doing
think that's where theintention is coming from. I
thing that's fun about it isnot intellectual in the way
doing was intellectual. It is,it's completely bass in it is
(56:17):
celebration of being stupid.
Where I think there wasintentional about what Andy
Kaufman was doing. These guyshappens if I shoot a
firecracker out of my penisnot to denigrate Jackass guys
at all. I have laughed my assmovies. But it does seem to be
different, you know, differentknow, as my wife would say,
(56:42):
cousins, but not siblings
Alex (56:47):
One of my favorite comedians is Tim Heidecker.
that it just seems like,right? Like if Andy had lived,
kind of things where he kindof, like you said earlier
a whole comedy special that isjust a goof on bad comics,
(57:09):
persona where he just goes outthere and tells bad jokes and
audience. And you're not clearif they knew what they were
then in his universe, he's gota guy named Greg Turkington,
Neil hamburger, who's verysimilar to the Tony Clifton
of this slimy lounge singerthat is offensive. Where do
(57:37):
And Tim either?
Unknown (57:37):
I mean, I think Tim and Eric is classic Andy
feels like the way that AndyKaufman would use time and
Eric use weirdness. You know,where I've seen bits of Tim
the pause would go with AndyKaufman. They're they're just
(58:00):
know, we're, we're reacting tosomething. You know, it's it
goes. Like that. So yeah, Iwould say there's a direct
Absolutely.
Alex (58:13):
What about Sacha Baron Cohen?
Unknown (58:15):
Oh, yeah. I mean, that's all. But you know, what
character on taxi? Do youremember? Latka? Yeah. Latka
to the bit that commitment tothe character is part of what
experimenting, you know, andwe saw, we talked a little bit
(58:38):
that was before Andy Kaufmanand, you know, Pink Panther.
Peter Sellers used to love tosay, like, you know, there's
It's all just the character,you know,
Alex (58:51):
but then didn't but then boron stuff would even
that, you know, like Giuliani,Giuliani, yeah. Getting
his pants down. I mean, thatis some brave.
Unknown (59:07):
I think that that's the that's the thing that
commitment to the characterbid is I'm going to let the
people directly in front ofme, because that's the entire
if you were in on the bid, youthought he was great. If you
(59:27):
the person being made fun ofand you hated it. And what
anybody who is doing that kindof character prank, comedy. I
Cohen was the first person buthe definitely kind of elevated
I'm gonna let everybody in onthe bit except for the three
right now.
Alex (59:47):
Right. What about Eric Andre? That guy is definitely
the next generation of thisstuff where he takes it so
he's gonna get killed someThey kind of that next that
Unknown (01:00:02):
no, I completely agree. I think that there's a
Eric Andre. I remember seeinga bit where he like dropped a
how he Mendell who wasfamously has OCD. And you
mean to me, you know, Iwouldn't want to do that. But
bad trip, there's, there'slike a real joy and
(01:00:24):
I'm making fun of me more thanI'm making fun of other
Alex (01:00:28):
He is self deprecating.
I mean, that's for sure. Helook great. But I agree with
you sometimes punches punches
Kelly (01:00:35):
a little bit. Is that a? Is that a thing? You know,
problem I'll run intosometimes is, I will say
I'll say something to, youknow, and to me, it's like,
or what I believe that I sayit in a way that I feel like
take it seriously. And so, youknow, I guess you know, you
(01:01:00):
canceled culture and about howit's, it's difficult sometimes
I mean, for a lot of reasons,but because you have to take
than you did 10 years ago.
Great example is rewatchinghow much the US version of the
office. I don't know how muchlast five years, 10 years. And
(01:01:21):
I was a big fan when it cameGervais version as well. But I
remember just cackling andin the day. And now it's kind
of cringy a lot of it islike, like that
uncomfortableness and theit doesn't feel like it's been
(01:01:42):
that long. I guess that was20 years. No, it
Alex (01:01:47):
wasn't the night. I
Jarret (01:01:47):
think it was 2000s.
Early 2000s. Okay, well,
Kelly (01:01:50):
yeah, even less time then. That
Alex (01:01:52):
was cringe comedy, like Scott's tots was cringy then
Like that is cringy. But it
Kelly (01:01:59):
feels even more than dinner party. It even feels it
it. If that show. Somebodytold me maybe it was you,
the the office was gettingrebooted. Which, which I'm
going to do that. Because itfeels like that would be
(01:02:19):
off more people than it madelaugh. Because back then it
laugh.
Jarret (01:02:23):
Well, I do feel like we're talking about two
there's the sort of ironicsexism and racism that was in
you've got this character whomeans well, but they have a
And it kind of comes out likein the episode where he's
having everybody walk aroundwith cards. I'm winning the
(01:02:47):
blah, blah, blah. But thenthere's also like, like, I
making this decision, and ithurts to watch them, you know,
girl. And he thinks that theway to, you know do it is to
on nine dates, you know, like,those are two completely
mechanisms. I think, now,where the, I can't believe
(01:03:09):
of comedy comes from, I'venever found that to be all
like, I have a really hardtime watching people be
like that. Now, where theironic racism and sexism stuff
little bit more tolerance forit earlier, because I don't
(01:03:31):
think we we viewed it as beinga part of the solution, as
problem. And I remembergrowing up with this in the
PC was the thing back then.
And me and my friends used tobit being very Kaufman like
that there was this underknew about was that we were
good progressives who did notwas
Kelly (01:03:56):
right on, you're saying that to be ironic, you're
but But it's so easy to, to itto hurt somebody's feelings,
with that. And so you're up onstage every night? And, you
know when it's okay? You thinkto yourself, oh, man, I've got
(01:04:17):
to probably tick off thisgroup of people. Should I say
that inner dialogue in yourhead sound like?
Unknown (01:04:24):
Well, I mean, it's, it's a little bit of a
know, you've got, who am Igoing to upset in the
not want to agree with me inthe audience, and this is sort
this ironic, you know, racismand sexism and whatnot, is
it's not part of the solution.
It's part of the problempeople who watch that and
(01:04:46):
think that they're not beingopposed to being ironic and
it's bad. I can tell I canhave done jokes that are
ironically anti Some medic orsomebody will come up to them
after the show, and say thatwhat? That it was funny. And
(01:05:07):
so there are a lot ofwho are moving away from that
kind of irony, because wewe think that we need to stop
making those kinds of jokes.
Kelly (01:05:20):
we were talking about Dave, earlier de bird and
actually a part where I thinksome frat guys come up to him
what you were talking about inand I forget what the song
being ironic in the song, andthey're agreeing with him. And
by that. So it's, yeah, yeah,it's, you know, everybody's
(01:05:43):
it's called, it's called the,the YouTubes, and the podcasts
so easy to get heard by peoplewho will take you out of
Unknown (01:05:54):
Yeah, I have done no research into this. But I
a data scientist God on this,that we could see a
semitism that started withpotentially the ironic anti
Park, because the reason whyanti semitism was funny in
(01:06:15):
so it was such an old andantiquated version of, of
bringing it back. And thenpeople started bringing it
know, when I was a waiter, myfriends would throw pennies on
like, Oh, this is so funny tobe to pretend to be anti
into real anti semitism. Andnow, you know, like, we've got
(01:06:39):
again, you know? Yeah, yeah,the guy who did Bojack
interview, where he talkedabout this, where he was like,
all day, all right, to have acharacter who is racist, or
justify it by saying that it'sjust the character, but we
the audience does with thatmaterial. And we don't have as
(01:07:00):
right. If
Kelly (01:07:01):
they're putting if they're putting him on a flag,
they do terrible things topeople. That's not good.
Unknown (01:07:07):
Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, is it is it is a
interesting journey. It is anadventure and yeah, it is
Kelly (01:07:17):
do you pick on people?
Do you like do you like pickAnd you know, kind of like,
what's your name, sir? How arehim? Or, you know,
Unknown (01:07:28):
extremely rarely extremely rare, whatever, you
Yeah, I do a little bit ofcrowd work. I even write
be crowd work. Mostly, if I'mever gonna go after an
they are being disruptive orhave said something offensive
kind of comedy that I have.
Made a a cornerstone, youI like to be as a comedian you
(01:07:56):
know, 5% Kaufmann 5% that
Kelly (01:08:00):
so if you go to a Jarrett Berenstein show, you
feel like you're gonna you
Unknown (01:08:06):
can wear the dumbest shirt you want. I am not going
Challenge.
Alex (01:08:13):
I wanted to mention just one more cringe comic that I
mention him because he's oneof my favorite cringe guys out
opinion, really genius stuff.
That had to be influenced byNathan fields. Oh,
Jarret (01:08:29):
yeah, absolutely.
Alex (01:08:31):
I mean, Nathan, for you is one of my favorite shows
recent show the curse, therehearsed HBO show, before
incredible stuff. But really,if like, I'm really careful
Unknown (01:08:50):
I mean, he's just good. He's just so good. I
watching some of that stuff.
But you cannot deny how funnyclever and creative it is. And
yeah, direct line, one to one
Alex (01:09:05):
to empathic. It hurts to watch really bad for the chat.
Unknown (01:09:11):
My wife was just with that stuff. I cannot watch too
Alex (01:09:15):
I don't think I would watch this like, but just like
not sure who is in on the gym,like that's part of it. And
maybe I'm not in there on thejoke like, Yeah, you don't
Kelly (01:09:27):
I just I do not. But not being in on the joke. I
interesting today that, youknow, the, you know, the
know, I am not a robot. Thepurpose of those is to prove
you know what they're reallylooking at? Like if you have
you know, show all thepictures of bicycles. So
(01:09:50):
at if you get the answer rightor not. They're looking at how
an algorithm that can tell thedifference between how the
human, and that's what it'slooking at. And so you can I
gotten one of those wrong,like, you know, you've gotten
through. But it's my point is,you know, where did this come
(01:10:13):
about this? Is, is you don'tknow you're you're not in on
know you think you think thatyou are solving one thing and
completely different thanbeing looked at in a
determine whether you're a botor not, you know, I
Unknown (01:10:28):
mean, CAPTCHA has always been one of my favorite
Andy Kaufman stuff captures.
Alex (01:10:39):
Who ever thought we'd end?
Kelly (01:10:44):
Well, what? Well, oh, go ahead.
Alex (01:10:47):
Go ahead with your question. Oh, I
Kelly (01:10:49):
was just gonna ask what what? You know, how do people
You
Unknown (01:10:55):
can check out Jared bernstein.com I've got all my
my upcoming projects. I am aregular poster of videos on
see me be really moralisticand intolerable. from a
do live sometimes I'm actuallyleaving to go on my honeymoon
(01:11:19):
for a while. But when I comeback again, yeah, check me out
where you're going? That iswhere we're going. Yeah. Wow.
Alex (01:11:28):
But what so when you said social media, you're
Unknown (01:11:34):
I yeah, I'm not not on there. I don't think that
content. But yeah, you canfind me on Tik Tok and
that stuff where I post myvideos I do lives on tick tock
yeah, Joe breaks into calm isreally the home base for all
Kelly (01:11:58):
Have you been to Japan before?
Unknown (01:11:59):
I have not noticed is very exciting. Excited.
Kelly (01:12:02):
Are you going to Kyoto?
We aren't. Yeah, that's wheretime. Oh, man. I just I hate
to admit how I know aboutfeed Phil and Phil Phil. Phil.
Rosenthal went to Kyoto andthat show, it's like a travel
food show. It's I enjoy it.
(01:12:26):
song in the world. Whoo.
Unknown (01:12:27):
All right. Well check it out just for that. Yes.
Alex (01:12:31):
Well, thanks, Jarrett, for being our guest today.
comedy, all things AndyKaufman talking about cringe
being our very first guest onthis
Unknown (01:12:46):
was an absolute honor to break this new ground with
my philosophical musings aboutthe deeper arts of creativity
Alex (01:13:01):
Definitely. Thanks. I
Kelly (01:13:02):
appreciate it.
Hello, everybody.
Welcome to another episode ofabout interesting dead people.
I'm here with my buddy Kelly
Kelly (00:17):
Man, it got hot. I'm so bummed if you live in
Alex (00:21):
Texas. It's miserable this time of year, but who
listening to this? I mean,this could be a fall episode.
one still hot probably inTexas. Hey, Kelly, I want to
Kelly (00:37):
Oh, yes, pink flocks, our new Patreon supporter.
Alex (00:42):
think is a flower. Did you know that?
Kelly (00:45):
I did not know that did not know that kind
Alex (00:47):
of flower or something.
Okay, Pink
Kelly (00:49):
Pink is our newest Patreon supporter. And if you
or another thing you can donow is in the description
you can click to send us amessage immediately from your
anybody do that, because wejust activated this feature on
(01:10):
works, you could be the firstone if you send us a message
we will send you something inthe mail.
Alex (01:17):
But keep in mind the show still isn't live. So if
we're saying we're not goingto, in real time respond to
still
Kelly (01:26):
this This isn't like a podcast booty call? No, no.
podcast. So wouldn't itpodcast booty call guarantee
Alex (01:35):
that's already a podcast? Hey, I want to
Kelly (01:41):
Okay, who's that? Oh, wait, there's a guy here.
Alex (01:44):
As you know, we have this podcast is about
it's not the first andprobably not the last podcast
And it strikes me that theremight be a lot of people
who maybe this is their secondfavorite podcast about
have here, the host of thepodcast, famous dead people,
(02:11):
Jarrett Berenstein Hello,
Unknown (02:14):
how's it going, guys?
Alex (02:16):
So you had a podcast from 2017 to 2020? About
Unknown (02:22):
That is correct. That is correct. So the premise of
invite comedians on to pretendto be deceased people from
questions, they would have toimprovise funny answers to the
famous people about their lives.
Alex (02:41):
And your last podcast was like a week before COVID
It was
Jarret (02:46):
not. It was not a coincidence. I had nothing to
was fortuitous. It wasfortuitous. For months, I was
needing to cut down on someprojects that I was doing. And
all the math of how much timeand energy I was putting into
(03:09):
lot of work for for the kindof show that it was. And we
thing that's gotta go, youknow. And not only was it a
freed up a lot of my time. AndI was able to do other
consuming. But then also COVIDhappened. And I was like, Oh,
I have to worry about that.
Alex (03:30):
Yeah, yeah. And then you've had a couple of other
right after that you got onone with a couple of your
anything that
Unknown (03:40):
is right Is this anything was a show where it
pandemic where we a couple ofcomedians that I knew we
together, when while wecouldn't be performing live.
fun doing it that we werelike, we think this might be a
putting out episodes, and theepisodes got a little bit
(04:02):
show was plagued by byinternal disputes between the
there was a whole behind thescenes drama going on where
about X, Y or Z we we kickedoff one of the members about
(04:24):
about around episode I thinklike, whatever the last
two guys on the podcast gotinto a fight together. And
well, I guess we're done.
Alex (04:37):
It's like being in a band.
Kelly (04:38):
We the last man standing.
Unknown (04:40):
Yeah, I could be the only one doing the show then
Alex (04:44):
So now you do have a show by yourself. Right?
Unknown (04:47):
I do. I started around during the pandemic I
of internal monologues where Iwould like see something on
of like, imagine I was beinginterviewed about that topic
about it. And so I startedanother podcast called
schedule whatsoever. I justput it in episodes whenever it
(05:11):
an experiment in if I don'tpromote something, will people
don't ever advertise like,Hey, new episode drops or
bring it up as if people askedme about it, and then I go,
my website. If people arepoking around on my website,
Alex (05:27):
Okay, well, great. So you're an experienced
Thank you so much for beingwith us. We're breaking our
done it a few times. Kelly,where we've both known. We're
think mostly the saints.
Kelly (05:44):
Yeah, we've done the st. St. Valentine. St. St.
episodes, a
Alex (05:51):
couple of others, saints mostly. And then there was one
the same person out of alldead people, we actually
the same week. It was aChristmas episode where we
Jarret (06:07):
Wow. Yeah. That's how you can tell you if you're
know, you guys were just onthe same wavelength.
Alex (06:13):
We're like born in 19, whatever. Oh, six in Illinois.
the same one? So we? We did.
Kelly (06:22):
And it was our most popular episode for a while.
it.
Alex (06:26):
Yeah, yeah. But today, we brought Jared on. Jared, in
And writer is also a touringcomedian. He's a comedian or
Unknown (06:38):
I actually just got into a conversation about this
the two and who's allowed tocall themselves a comedian and
themselves a comic. I don'treally parse out the semantics
Kelly (06:54):
better than the other, I don't know, higher rank.
Unknown (06:56):
I don't even remember what position the person I was
saying that you can be a comicwithout a comedian or vice
political. Like I know a lotabout politics very passionate
jive well with that stuff,either. You know, like what's
progressive or liberal orleftist or a Democrat? I'm
(07:18):
whatever Call me whatever youwant. You know, I don't care.
Alex (07:22):
I feel like comic was big for a while. Like you were
And then Jerry Seinfeld cameout with the movie comedian,
back to comedian documentary
Kelly (07:34):
and later he came out with the B movie and they
thank you for the courtesylaughter it
Unknown (07:43):
Oh, the lobby coming all day guys. I gotta reserves
Kelly (07:48):
me a dirty look when I say something like that.
Alex (07:50):
Well, I know that that's that's the cue that crickets
Sometimes I
Unknown (07:55):
woke up I was doing a show in a club that had an
thought somebody was likeheckling me. They hear this
somebody's phone. Like what amI? We fucking was? Wait,
Alex (08:09):
Yeah, it's like, it's like the the microphone that
there's nobody else. Right?
And that always happens likemicrophone squeals Yep. Well,
I want to talk to Jarrettour subject today is Andy
Kaufman. And I want to getat first, but then I really
(08:35):
want to get the opinions of asomebody also who's a little
bit younger than us whoaware of, of Andy Kaufman in
the in the original, like,happening and see. See how.
See how that all went? I'm
Unknown (08:55):
interested in hearing everything you guys
Abraham Lincoln. Yeah. Thedinosaurs, whatever. Yeah. I
generations.
Alex (09:09):
Yeah, yeah. Thank you.
We'll teach you everythingfavorite century, as we've
learned going on here is thegood run the 20th century
outside of the couple of worldout the world wars, it was a
hell of a century. I
Unknown (09:30):
mean, a lot of interesting stuff happened,
Alex (09:33):
if you add in the World War is not so great.
Kelly (09:37):
We have we have a lot of great movies because of the
have today. It's true. Yeah.
That's true. I mean, whatWorld War Two, yeah,
Alex (09:47):
yeah, it's like half of a giant
Unknown (09:49):
Mr. Via giant space in his resume. And every time
that, they would go whathappened here? It's like,
Saving Private Ryan there, butthat word doesn't exist. So
Kelly (10:00):
Right, right.
Alex (10:02):
So Andy Kaufman was kind of a product of the 20th
square in the middle in 1949.
unfortunately died in 1984. Soburns super bright, but not
very long. But totally60s. As you can imagine, a kid
(10:22):
born in 1949 grew up watchinginterviews, he's talked about
how he just wanted to climbworld. He grew up in Long
Island. And just in front ofWikipedia, we don't get too
much of our information fromoff off chance that we do.
(10:44):
Wikipedia said that he was hewas an entertainer at
children's birthday partyWhich is a little unsettling
in itself to have a nine yearbirthday party and be like the
the entertainment.
Kelly (11:04):
He also supposedly spent a lot of time in his
like just pretending like hewas live on a television show.
Unknown (11:13):
I mean, that's, you
Alex (11:15):
know, really resonated that really resonate
Unknown (11:17):
with 100% Exact without question, there is a
like, into a recorder. Yeah,but I gotta say, like a
yeah, a nine year oldentertainer at a children's
ideal, because that is likethe eighth. Like, if you could
(11:40):
be the entertainer, there's athing that happens in kids
is an adult, it's a differentperson. But if it's just a
kid is cool. He still speaksthe language. He knows we want
fart noises and you know whatsilly faces and stuff like
he probably crushed those kidsbirthday parties.
Alex (12:01):
Unless it was a 14 year olds birthday party and then
just be
Kelly (12:05):
Yeah, that's lame.
Yeah. 100% I would get beat upMonday. Yeah,
Unknown (12:11):
yeah.
Alex (12:12):
But he used to do he used to do all kinds of like
himself as an as anentertainer. He saw himself as
just wanted to be like in theTV didn't really concern
or even really being funny. Hejust wanted to entertain
(12:37):
he went to community collegefor a couple years and then
coffeehouse circuit. And hehad this one bit that he that
bit that he called foreignmen. Where he played like
country that he that he camefrom sounded like maybe kind
(13:01):
country where he would.
Kelly (13:04):
He said it was the island in the middle of the
Novia or Casper, Casper, AVIor something, and it was
the middle of the Caspian Seaor something like that. Yeah.
Alex (13:17):
And the point of this character was not to make fun
was more of to projectinnocence, right that to like,
and, and kind of kind of bethis innocent person. And he
But he would do him in his inhis foreign accents, accent
(13:42):
thinking that that was reallyhim. He morphed that into this
this Elvis impression. Andwhere it was a really good
full with the full costume andeverything. And then people
that they like, is this guyfor real? And so was he What
(14:02):
audience on? Its on its heelsa little bit, keep them
going to do next. I'm not surethe bid was funny. I mean, it
than the one joke, right?
Yeah. Like it was a probably awas that oh, I'm not really
this boring.
Kelly (14:22):
And I'm not really that funny.
Unknown (14:24):
Yeah. So if you're talking about like an open
like a comedy showcase show,usually the comics are getting
each. If it's professionalshow, usually it's closer to
smaller show, usually, like 10minutes. I mean, if you're on
sign up like really thatperson doing more than eight
(14:47):
potentially a disaster. Youknow, there are open mics that
where everybody got two and ahalf minutes, you know, just
precariousness of it. And Idon't know if we're jumping
think like this is the nuggetlike this is the thing that
was, was playing with theagreement that the performer
(15:11):
I'm doing a thing right now,versus this is me right now,
lying about? What is thehonest part of this? And
entertainer that has tostruggle with that, where we
read, you know, like, does anaudience understand what I'm
(15:32):
you would say, like, am Ishowing my cards too early? Am
the thing that Andy Kaufmanpioneered was, I'm not going
just going to do the thing.
And every and people can guesswant whether or not this is
real or not. And that was soalienated a lot of people. And
(15:54):
that's sort of like the, theentertainers is like, you
know, the payoff can be huge.
alienating your audience for along time, but it's painful to
long time to know that guys,there's, there's gonna be
we're not there yet. And
Kelly (16:15):
you just pull. They're so uncomfortable. Yeah, hurts.
Unknown (16:19):
It really gets there when there's like, no laughs
performer, I can't stand toomuch of that, you know, like,
go on a little bit too long inthe setup. There's always a
like, there's a joke. Come on,guys. I swear, I swear. But he
(16:39):
of performers who do like thattension. And, and yeah, the
that he was performing, sowilling to sit in that
was, it was so different, and,and really revolutionary.
Alex (16:58):
That's the thing is that I love that word tension, too.
so you said 10, to 20, butlike he was on Johnny Carson,
Unknown (17:09):
those are like five, late nights. That's right,
Alex (17:13):
minutes, if you don't have and so a lot of comedians
there, their best jokes,right? A lot of them don't
other. But you have to getthose kind of a greatest hits
But if all you're doing iswhat he was doing that six
(17:34):
lot of time. And for thoseaudiences that were used to
of the more standard,conventional comedians at the
audiences were not trained,like today's audiences are to
minutes, where he did a goodminute and a half with his
(17:56):
where he's putting on hisElvis costume. And then like
finally using the Elvis voice,but there might have been,
in that hole. And the jokesweren't even like a
Yeah. It was interesting. Buttheir jokes they were just
not who he says yes, the
Unknown (18:18):
thing is, like, there's such a payoff, if you
you can keep people investedif you can keep people on
a real gamble of just is thisperson bad? Or is this on
Kelly (18:34):
you'll have podcasters talking about you for four
that's, that's, that's a signthat he's succeeded is that
right? This
Unknown (18:43):
is the payoff. This is what he wanted was this.
Alex (18:46):
is the payoff. Well, he, one of his other famous bets
guys familiar with this MightyMouse been used to do where he
put on a record of the MightyMouse song and he would just
comes on. When he says here, Icome to save the day, and he
(19:08):
motion, and then he would goback into
Kelly (19:10):
awkwardness standing like like very awkwardly, and
Alex (19:13):
a three minute bit with basically that one joke. He
very first episode of SaturdayNight Live in 1975. That's
that uncomfortableness. Andsome people at the time
(19:34):
some people said this was awaste of everybody's time and
Unknown (19:39):
that's what's so cool about it is that the things
some things that at Kauffmandid where I was like, okay,
you're pushing it too far.
Man. You have to have a littleI don't know man, I actually
saw a really good time. Zega
Alex (19:54):
length of time where he all he did was read The Great
Unknown (19:59):
in life. In my opinion, you know, I actually
subtle call back to the MightyMouse. But I was at I was at a
a woman came out and she wasdressed kind of kind of
(20:19):
like a little bit hunchedback, you know, just kind of
and then all of a sudden akaraoke version of what sounds
playing and she's not doinganything, she's just kind of
her thing, you know? And thenyou start to realize that this
the movie, Aladdin, whereAladdin is explaining, you
(20:44):
and you know, one step aheadof the WEPA you know, and so
this girl like bopper log tothe song, you know, until she
think he's rather tasty, whichin the movie was said by like
rags and everything like this.
She milked it so hard. Thatdid, like there was in the
(21:04):
Mighty Mouse, but he comesthe entire thing listening to
the whole song. No words, notthis soundtrack. There's no
words. And then just still, Ide lightful. Did the crowd
like, oh, we loved it. WeAnd there's something also
(21:25):
about those bits that'swork every time. And so when
it works here with us, that's
Kelly (21:35):
together like you're part of something special.
stars aligned.
Unknown (21:40):
You can see that same bid at a different show and
so lucky that you got to be apart of the crowd that got it.
Alex (21:47):
you earn goodwill with the audience, they know who
But the very first time whenyou're an unknown, I mean, you
example, will have some crazysketches on when he was on
that just bombed. But he'scommitted to those sketches so
(22:11):
up thinking, well, am Imissing something and these
a good time making this. Andthen the next time you kind of
kind of get where he's comingfrom. But the very first time
riotous laughter,
Unknown (22:29):
there's a real danger that if you don't perform
audience, you might not playthat club again. You might not
opportunity to impresssomebody who had an
there is there is a real riskto being that kind of comedian
and isn't concerned aboutbeing a, you know, rapid fire
(22:56):
doesn't hit, you might havejust fucked yourself for
Kelly (23:01):
Well, let's on that, on that point. Tony Clifton,
funny or tell traditionaljokes. I mean, he just
insulted, insulted. So explainclearly explain who Tony
alter ego, I believe, of AndyKaufman and one of his
(23:25):
them came up with itoriginally. And somebody would
would do this. And then theywould both be that character
Unknown (23:36):
that I was I believe so. I believe so I believe
Alex (23:42):
Yeah, in fact, people thought they were booking Andy
this lounge singer, so hewould play like a week at a
we're getting Andy Kaufman sowe can get people in the door.
on vacation, Bob's muda wouldjust do it. And, and they
(24:03):
money Andy Kaufman was makingand they'd split it and it
way to the bank on that.
Unknown (24:09):
Well, I think there was a little smoke and mirrors
came out singer that, thatAndy Kaufman is this person
It's not there, you know, I'mjust not right
Kelly (24:20):
because he one time I he showed up at a show where
all of a sudden Andy's thereso it can't be Andy. But
another there's another personinvolved that's doing this. I
mirrors. Yeah. And
Alex (24:36):
the the Tony Clifton character was a boorish,
lounge singer, like acaricature of a terrible
racist, sexist jokes, and gotcompletely on the bad side of
they always thought that okay,there's the sweet guy under
(24:59):
bad. Have you guys seen themovie? Jim and Andy?
Unknown (25:05):
Yes, the documentary
Alex (25:07):
on? Yeah, it's the documentary about the making
seen it? Yes, I
Kelly (25:12):
have. I have not seen it. So there's a scene
Alex (25:15):
in that movie and they had they have all these behind
in 2017. But it was about themaking of man on the moon,
So there's the scene where JimCarrey gets invited to the
Well, I can't make it but canTony Clifton calm instead? So
(25:35):
wink. So Bob's a mood Akos asTony Clifton gets everybody
That's Jim Carrey. Don't youknow, don't give him a hard
cool. And at the end of theparty, Jim Carrey shows up and
they call the cops and they'relike, You got to get out of
(25:56):
got in here and they totallyturned on him. Yeah,
Unknown (25:59):
I mean, it's kind of you know, the bit I think the
documentary is that basically,Jim Carrey was in character
was Jim Carrey he was AndyKaufman on on stage off stage
(26:20):
personally as a as somebodyworking in entertainment
completely intolerable. It'slike everybody's working their
the lighting people, theassistant add the costume
these people's lives harder byinvolving them in your you
(26:41):
journey, you know, but I willsay this, like he got it like
Kaufman like the kind ofentertainment that he was, and
think you can really see alove that Jim Carrey has not
performer, but for the type ofcomedy that he pioneered.
Alex (27:03):
Yeah, I think you're right. He did drive everybody.
Unknown (27:06):
Yeah, I would have hated that.
Kelly (27:08):
Yeah, well, before we go, before we go further with
will, I do want to ask aquestion, because this is one
think about, I'm, I've grownup, you know, musically, I
out there. Like, you know, Idon't mind stuff that's really
whatever. I'm good with artfilms, generally, you know,
(27:32):
considered myself fairly wellcultured when it comes to film
like that. But then there's apoint at which it's just not
at which it's just not funny.
And it says sort of emperorYou know, the kids, the only
one that will point out thatbecause he thinks he's wearing
this great thing. I, I gottasaw Andy Kaufman live. But
(27:55):
watching from watching onMoon, you know, just watching
all these clips from eitherthink I would have been mad in
some of those situations, youup at a show and have Tony
Clifton show up and just bethat was cute for a minute,
but it's really not thatof my wife or my mom, or
(28:18):
whoever's, you know, and it'sto the show, and it's, you
made it route, you ruined itthat's, that's a weird trap I
feel like we fall into is thatyou don't like something?
Because then you're consideredknow, not like sophisticated
enough to understand it. Oh,unsophisticated. That's why he
(28:39):
doesn't get this joke. You
Unknown (28:42):
100%. You know, that's the that's the journey
who your whole shtick isalienating the audience. And I
This sort of like spectrum ofalienating your audience for a
there's, there's art thatspoon feeds you the
(29:03):
art, that spoon feeds it toyou so hard that it makes your
This sucks. And it's not evenentertaining anymore. You're
And then there's stuff thatalienates your audience so
get through it. I think aboutbooks like Ulysses, like who
like, how active is your brainhave to be and so I think that
(29:25):
entertainment is the thingthat challenges you a little
entertaining. And there's somuch great art like that. But
like, I want to be ultra, youknow, intellectual or I really
and this you know, this iswhere we get the musical form
(29:47):
you also have things that arelike we just need to be so
enjoy this. Anybody couldwatch this, you know, the
Furious, you know, stuff likethat. There's an audience for
all that stuff, it this onlyexists on a spectrum. But Andy
space man who's like, I wantto see how far I can go in
Kelly (30:11):
that out, right? Maybe the purpose of that is to
saccharin, you know, likespoon fed kind of stuff, maybe
Jarret (30:19):
you can do too much of that
Kelly (30:20):
we need a little, even if, even if you don't, I mean,
into politics now. But butkind of like politics is, you
people over here and peopleover here. And and most people
most people like to be in themiddle and like to be closer
you know, as long as you havesomeone over here, you've got
else, the whole thing tips,right? Yeah, I don't know. I
Unknown (30:42):
mean, there's also an argument to be made that the
his commentary on the type ofcomedian who he would see at
venues, you know, it's like,they're, I mean, we're still
there are comics who complainabout canceled culture like
And then there are othercomics who are like, well, the
(31:05):
racist or homophobic orwhatever, you know. So now,
character, that is a critiqueof, that's not a joke. You're
not a joke. You're just beingan asshole to that person in
Alex (31:19):
I think it's hard to look at this stuff.
watch YouTube videos. But whatwe don't realize is what it
yeah, he was breaking stuff atthe time, and he was breaking
at the time. And I remember.
So, you know, I was like,when when I was a kid, I was
(31:40):
like, 989 10 years old. And Iheard he was going to be on
something. And he played allhe was on The Dinah Shore show
and Dick Van Dyke Show wasn'trock comic where you had to go
and like, Look hard for hismainstream stuff. But he would
(32:04):
do is weird stuff. And I usedkid who just consumed that
stuff. That he I didn't knowknew it was cool. And it was
different. And that kind ofLetterman, later on that would
do that kind of you werelater on, where it's like, you
didn't know where this stuffthat kind of comedy a lot. A
(32:28):
lot more than like the Bobliners. I thought it was cool
at the time. Yeah, Nick,
Kelly (32:38):
my wife, please.
Unknown (32:39):
I think that there's a I think there's a direct
between Andy Kaufman's pushingthe boundaries and the
It's almost like DavidLetterman is sort of in
material or smile and winkingis is sort of making what Andy
(33:01):
more digestible, just likethat much more, so that we
Alex (33:07):
Well, in the fact that he had Andy Kaufman on was
goodwill with Letterman, likeif he endorsed it, this guy
see it, give it time, becausethere must be something cool
has a mind. That endorsementwas really important to me as
Letterman. And you know, eventhe David Letterman like
(33:30):
have. Andy Kaufman would wouldwould come on there from time
Unknown (33:36):
I didn't realize any compliment was on David
wonder it did not. It was notthe audience that is not the
Alex (33:47):
So weird part is he took this foreign guy character and
taxi. The sitcom taxi. Jerry,are you familiar with that
Unknown (33:59):
with taxi? Yeah.
Alex (34:02):
Yeah, it was a good show. Funny show. He had it in
only appear and half of theshows Andy Andy Kaufman, about
like 28 episodes a year. Hewould appear in about 14 of
he was no like he was the mostpopular one on that show and
(34:27):
which is the opposite of theway that Andy Kaufman wanted
they promised him a specialthat he would get this special
Andy's funhouse or somethinglike that, where he would get
that's the reason they did it.
But I think he was the highesteven though he was an only
half the episodes. Yeah, Ifamously had a deal in his
(34:48):
contract that said that Tonythe shows that didn't work out
so well and famously kind ofhe was on taxi was a
mainstream as mainstream as ita really big star through
taxi. Yeah,
Unknown (35:09):
I mean, yeah, his stuff was funny. It was even
little bit more digestible wasstill good, you know?
Alex (35:17):
Yeah. And, and this was around the same time that
becoming popular. So there'sanother one who was kind of
mainstream sitcom world. Soit's like I said, it's not
these weird people that wereright on your TV every week.
(35:37):
outside of those shows thatwere really Yeah,
Unknown (35:40):
I think Robin Williams is almost the
like the thing that was soweird about him was that he
so badly, you know, he wasgoing 1000 miles an hour,
different bits, this thing ledoff of that thing, that thing
physical. So out there thatany coffin was a little bit
(36:04):
I promise there'll be a payoffwhere as Rob leaves thing was
Here's this, you don't likethis? Here's that you don't
and keeping up with it waspart of the joke with Robin
Alex (36:17):
You know, they were friends.
Unknown (36:18):
I that didn't surprise me at all. Yeah,
Alex (36:21):
I mean, they were both kind of in that in that sitcom
a one performance where AndyWood said that he had his
he had this old woman and heput her on up on the stage.
the lady ripped off her wig.
And it was Robin Williams,
Kelly (36:41):
Mrs. Doubtfire.
Unknown (36:44):
That's where we got the idea. For that's true,
Kelly (36:47):
yeah, well, so in terms of in terms of what you, you
ago that you don't findyourself 100% comfortable
that build up? Sometimes. AndI'm the same way i i Really,
uncomfortable. And I thinkit's a personality thing. It's
(37:10):
Some people can't. How do you?
How do you do that? As ayou push yourself? Do you feel
like sometimes you do have tojust let the silence fall over
you? Or get booed? Or whatin those situations where, you
know, it's gonna be funny, ifdon't think you know, it's
gonna be funny you think mightworks. And sometimes it
(37:33):
doesn't. Like how do youperson who doesn't like to
mess up somebody's first date
Unknown (37:40):
It's difficult. You know, every comedian kind of
discovering what it is thatthey do that works the first
specific comics that yourespect a lot, but maybe it
Exactly. So you change it up.
When I first started doingan Eddie Izzard thing. That
didn't work. Then I tried tothing that kind of didn't work
(38:01):
a little bit, I was able tomy voice, you know. And part
of that is you you take frombeen developed by all the
great comedians that you havetension of is there a joke
coming? Is this a bit iscomedians do. But maybe we
(38:25):
only do it like salt andseason, you know, a part of
your dinner, whereas that wasAnd that was so interesting at
the time. But good analogy.
way of like, there arecomedians that I came up with
that 60% of their set was thesort of Andy Kaufman alienated
(38:50):
were some comedians who werelike, completely the opposite
concerned about getting theirlaughs and being as mainstream
they only did 1% of the AndyKaufman thing. But yeah, the
standup is not just in, infinding your voice but unable
handle bombing, because thatis the process of writing new
(39:14):
great already. Even whenyou're established. You still
once in a while. And thosejokes do not have 100% success
are. What I've noticed is thata really good season comedian
he gets that tension, he slowsdown. I shouldn't say he I
(39:35):
know, say, uh, you know,gender norms that we're trying
But the comedian then willslow down whereas you'll see a
silence, get that tension andthen start to speed up because
up the pace. I just started Ijust lost the momentum here.
Kelly (39:51):
Okay, good to know, good to know,
Alex (39:53):
what is uncomfortable these days? Is it politics? Or
person to know, what makesaudiences uncomfortable.
Unknown (40:03):
It's interesting because it really depends on
you do. As a comedian, I heardthis great analogy from Pete
audience is your instrument,but it's a different
imagine you're and you're amusician, and you show up to
But the next day, it's acello. And then the next day,
(40:26):
day, it's a harp, you know,part of your job as a comedian
audience you have. When I goon the road I'm generally
that have similar politics tome, so I can go hard on what I
even if they're not with me,100% they're on board for me
(40:47):
I just do that at any show,without any warm up
foreplay with the audience,it's a little bit more of a
of what you do is figure outwhat is this audience going to
comedians who are like, I'monly looking for that I'm only
trying to get that. But yeah,it is. It's a discovery
(41:11):
like I can't hear any moreshit about Trump, or sometimes
more shit about COVID. Or Ican't hear any of this
about their bodily fluids orwhatever. It really depends,
Kelly (41:25):
Yeah, I guess a lot of it is where where you are
you're in? And then like yousaid, it's it's do the people
you're all about? Or, youknow, is it just they came
no, it's not not what I wasthinking it would be? Yeah,
Jarret (41:41):
an audience's expectations is part of the
you have nothing, which makesit an uphill battle. But once
you're good. Versus if you aresuper famous, well
Chris Rock, the thing you'refighting against is what can I
(42:01):
these people already love me?
Because otherwise, comediansthey're like, they don't push
their own boundaries. Theymaterial anymore, because they
can get away with doingthe audience is already love
them.
Kelly (42:16):
Do you? Do you know who Dave bird is?
Jarret (42:20):
Oh, my God, that name sounds so familiar.
Kelly (42:22):
Let me
Unknown (42:24):
Oh, of course, Little Dickie. Yeah. Dave Burt, of
Kelly (42:28):
Have you ever watched his show called Dave? Yeah,
Jarret (42:31):
I love the show. Yeah,
Kelly (42:33):
that was one of the best shows. I mean, just so
I cared about every one ofthose characters. But yeah, I
Because because I'm a fan ofhis music. Generally, I think
little raunchy, just for thesake of being raunchy
know, that's part of the rapgame, as he might say. But I
(42:57):
definitely would do things totry things. And, and fail at
and, and it is music. Theguy's pretty, pretty genius
comedy. And then also, theshow is just very well
Dave audience, go check itout. I think it's on effect,
Unknown (43:18):
recommend, highly recommend Dave. And I mean, I
more specifically, comedy, butI think all of entertainment
you fail a lot until you findthe thing that works, one of
work with regularly, veryentrepreneurial spirit. And so
(43:38):
attitude towards thismaterial, try this does it
that with, you know, alright,well, I'm going to try doing,
going to try, you know, doinga show in this kind of
it's different. It'sinteresting. Yeah.
Alex (43:56):
Well, we've got the wrestling stuff that in his
of want to talk a little bitabout legacy. And some of the
alluded to some, but somepeople out there, they're
came to wrestling, that waswhere he kind of lost me, I
(44:19):
And the way he did it, too,with the way he would only
to these places, and he wouldproclaim himself the
of the world, and he madehimself this belt, and he
only before he I mean, onlyafter he would berate the
(44:40):
chauvinistic, sexist stuff,and rile the crowd up, and
then he he, of course, beatall these women and then he'd
he'd really done somethinguntil he met his match with
wrestler who kicked his ass anumber of different times,
those guys were friends. Inreal life, but what did you
(45:03):
part, which was a huge part ofhis life?
Unknown (45:06):
Okay, so I came up with this from very
a friend growing up, we wereall coming in her to be my
was the guy who loved anyconference. So he was like,
Now, the revelation that JerryLawler was in on this was a
the fact that he was in themovie man on the moon,
(45:27):
entire thing was stage wasrelatively new. And so when I
about Andy Kaufman with myfriend, the wrestling stuff
downward spiral was, this iswhere he lost everybody,
with wrestling for somereason. And he was being such
(45:47):
remember as a young person wholoved comedy, and who was
this and being like, are wesure this wasn't a bit? This
is his whole thing. He doesbits it doesn't tell
Alex (46:00):
you in wrestling is a bit. Yeah, exactly. Wrestling
right? Well,
Kelly (46:06):
you know, our very first, our very first episode
the Giant. And and we started,we started with Andre the
and we would watch Mid SouthWrestling. And my sister and
know, I'm using air quotesfake because, I mean, those
themselves. And they reallydid, you know, do some pretty
(46:30):
it was all staged and thingswould be planned out what he
was doing in that phase, hewanted to be the bad guy of
one that everybody booed andthe everyone hated. And there
classic classic, most of themmost of the time, they were
or, or Asian kid, they werenon white guys, sometimes they
(46:53):
would they would make thesepeople out to be these
think that's what he wanted todo. He created his own
everybody hated. And he justglommed onto it. And I think
or dopamine hit from peoplebooing him, you know, and
angry at him. And he The bid was
Unknown (47:13):
working, you know, like, the fact is, the only
this bit, was letting peopleknow that it was a bit because
problem is that what when doyou release the tension and
in on this? And he never didnever did after?
Kelly (47:34):
You're dead? Yeah.
Alex (47:35):
And that brings us to why when he finally when he
him. Yeah. Yeah. Nobodybelieved he was dead. Yeah,
looking at YouTube clips. Theother day, there was a clip
(47:56):
somebody had seen him in NewMexico, somebody like there
says, Oh, this could be him.
And he's probably livingone like Elvis was one of
these deals where nobodywould think that he would have
let us in on this by now, butthan or greater than 0%
Kelly (48:18):
You know what's gonna happen one day we're gonna
the news. And, and DonaldTrump's gonna just take his
Andy Kaufman.
Unknown (48:30):
I'm sorry, Andy, but you've gone too far. Sorry,
you shouldn't have left theParis Climate Accord. Andy.
Kelly (48:39):
would have gotten away with it, too. If it weren't
Alex (48:44):
Just the idea that he died of lung cancer, and he
like, the whole thing seemedlike a hoax. Not if not by him
thing was just really bizarre.
Is
Kelly (48:58):
that just sweet irony?
You know? Is that just the way
Alex (49:04):
suppose. Yeah, I
Unknown (49:04):
think I think the key to Andy Kaufman is you assume
to be fine. If it's not a bitwith everything that he's
over all of his material, hisentire oeuvre. Most of that is
to be bits. There's the famousskit on not Saturday Night
(49:26):
sound I live with MichaelRichards in it where he
Fridays. Yeah, yeah. pretendedto give up on a skit halfway
that Jim Carrey made, that bitis revealed to the audience
that was a that was acontroversy for I don't know,
(49:46):
who now say they were in onit, you know, kind of acted
back then. So like, you know,there's some controversy
to be like, it might have allbeen a bit it might not have
Alex (49:59):
and then he would go On to apologize for something
On one of those Friday'sthings he came back and he
the musical guests thepretenders. Have you seen this
pretenders are behind him. Youcan see Chrissy Hein, ready to
(50:21):
gentlemen, before I introducethe pretenders, I just want to
talks, he's goes on this thingabout health, and how you
shouldn't do drugs or and thisis on Fridays, the show was
And people are booing andthey're saying and he's just
(50:43):
this thing. And you know, andthen he finally says, I'm
pretenders aren't gonna beable to. And I think the
bed. They looked like wait,we're not playing. Wow, easy
determined to make people madall the you know how I just
(51:06):
the Tony Clifton character ifhe wanted to just make people
Unknown (51:09):
knew that one already. You know, he had to
You know, I was describinglike, every comedian has their
of this do I want to do? Whatis gonna be my voice? It's
doing that, not for himself,but for the world of comedy in
teaching us all what is toomuch of this, you know, I'm
(51:30):
I'm going to take salts, andI'm just gonna keep on pouring
know it's too much. And thefun thing about comedy is that
where it's too much, and thenyou keep on adding salt. But
you're like, Okay, well, it'sa, you know, we call it the
19, where you do a joke threetimes, and it's perfect. And
(51:51):
that it's kicking a dead horseuntil you get to the ninth
funny again, that is AndyKaufman's research that, let
Alex (52:00):
Wow. And I think 40 years later, that seems
don't think anybody thought hewas going to have the legacy
Absolutely. I mean, the factlike Kelly said that we're
know, at first when you startthinking about people today
obviously nobody that's doingwhat he did today, but I can
(52:23):
wanted to run by you to seehow close or how influenced
people in today's comedyworld, Jarrett? Well, the
I thought of kind of this,just beginning of cringe
five years after him. Therewas a guy on MTV named Tom
(52:46):
wheelhouse? Do you remember toremember Tom? Tom Green Green
he was he played in thatuncomfortable zone? A lot.
Unknown (52:56):
Yeah, for my for my personal taste. I think Tom
little bit too much. But hedefinitely had those moments
it is man, like, right there,you know, but he was also
boundaries as well. I thinkthat that is a I think it was
Kaufman and Tom Green. I wouldnot be surprised if Tom Green
(53:21):
and potentially wasconsciously trying to be an
Alex (53:27):
Sure. Kristen Shaw,
Unknown (53:29):
Kristen Shaw. I don't you know, I don't know I
in New York every once in awhile, she became obviously
But you know, I would see herdo shows every once in a
stuff that I used to seeChristians shall do was what
(53:51):
we're going to do this a lotuntil it's funny. Are you
used to do with her partnerChristian shawls? A horse?
Alex (53:58):
I'm not tell us about that. So
Unknown (54:00):
Chris is also a horse. I forget. I think her
Haller. I could be pronouncinghis name last name correct
a bit where he would juststart clapping and he would
Christian Charles, ChristianCharles a horse, Christian,
horse when she was sort oflike gallop back back and
(54:23):
five minutes, just that, justthat and it is it is peak,
to keep on doing this. Untilit's funny. I mean, you could
reading The Great Gatsbything. You know, was yeah,
Alex (54:39):
you can almost say your your wanting to the people to
us. And now that they've allleft now we can have some fun,
Unknown (54:47):
the fun is, I'm just gonna read more of this book.
Kelly (54:50):
exactly how the man on the moon movie starts. Right
beginning? I had never seen itand I just watched it
beginning where it's a falsebeginning where he comes out
alienates the audience says goaway, the movie is over. It's
(55:12):
Carrey doing this. And thenand then it's like a good two
out and says okay if you'restill here you're going to
get rid of the people hebasically said what you just
Alex the whole thing with likeJackass and all the all the
(55:33):
that would would just do allthe crazy stunts. I'm trying
you know, yeah. Well, yeah,yeah.
Jarret (55:42):
Yeah. Very,
Kelly (55:44):
that's very uncomfortable, too. But more
kind of way. Like, like,there's people that like to
that don't like to watch that.
I'm not
Unknown (55:53):
gonna go on the record and say that those guys
Andy Kaufman. But I do thinkthat even if they were doing
think that's where theintention is coming from. I
thing that's fun about it isnot intellectual in the way
doing was intellectual. It is,it's completely bass in it is
(56:17):
celebration of being stupid.
Where I think there wasintentional about what Andy
Kaufman was doing. These guyshappens if I shoot a
firecracker out of my penisnot to denigrate Jackass guys
at all. I have laughed my assmovies. But it does seem to be
different, you know, differentknow, as my wife would say,
(56:42):
cousins, but not siblings
Alex (56:47):
One of my favorite comedians is Tim Heidecker.
that it just seems like,right? Like if Andy had lived,
kind of things where he kindof, like you said earlier
a whole comedy special that isjust a goof on bad comics,
(57:09):
persona where he just goes outthere and tells bad jokes and
audience. And you're not clearif they knew what they were
then in his universe, he's gota guy named Greg Turkington,
Neil hamburger, who's verysimilar to the Tony Clifton
of this slimy lounge singerthat is offensive. Where do
(57:37):
And Tim either?
Unknown (57:37):
I mean, I think Tim and Eric is classic Andy
feels like the way that AndyKaufman would use time and
Eric use weirdness. You know,where I've seen bits of Tim
the pause would go with AndyKaufman. They're they're just
(58:00):
know, we're, we're reacting tosomething. You know, it's it
goes. Like that. So yeah, Iwould say there's a direct
Absolutely.
Alex (58:13):
What about Sacha Baron Cohen?
Unknown (58:15):
Oh, yeah. I mean, that's all. But you know, what
character on taxi? Do youremember? Latka? Yeah. Latka
to the bit that commitment tothe character is part of what
experimenting, you know, andwe saw, we talked a little bit
(58:38):
that was before Andy Kaufmanand, you know, Pink Panther.
Peter Sellers used to love tosay, like, you know, there's
It's all just the character,you know,
Alex (58:51):
but then didn't but then boron stuff would even
that, you know, like Giuliani,Giuliani, yeah. Getting
his pants down. I mean, thatis some brave.
Unknown (59:07):
I think that that's the that's the thing that
commitment to the characterbid is I'm going to let the
people directly in front ofme, because that's the entire
if you were in on the bid, youthought he was great. If you
(59:27):
the person being made fun ofand you hated it. And what
anybody who is doing that kindof character prank, comedy. I
Cohen was the first person buthe definitely kind of elevated
I'm gonna let everybody in onthe bit except for the three
right now.
Alex (59:47):
Right. What about Eric Andre? That guy is definitely
the next generation of thisstuff where he takes it so
he's gonna get killed someThey kind of that next that
Unknown (01:00:02):
no, I completely agree. I think that there's a
Eric Andre. I remember seeinga bit where he like dropped a
how he Mendell who wasfamously has OCD. And you
mean to me, you know, Iwouldn't want to do that. But
bad trip, there's, there'slike a real joy and
(01:00:24):
I'm making fun of me more thanI'm making fun of other
Alex (01:00:28):
He is self deprecating.
I mean, that's for sure. Helook great. But I agree with
you sometimes punches punches
Kelly (01:00:35):
a little bit. Is that a? Is that a thing? You know,
problem I'll run intosometimes is, I will say
I'll say something to, youknow, and to me, it's like,
or what I believe that I sayit in a way that I feel like
take it seriously. And so, youknow, I guess you know, you
(01:01:00):
canceled culture and about howit's, it's difficult sometimes
I mean, for a lot of reasons,but because you have to take
than you did 10 years ago.
Great example is rewatchinghow much the US version of the
office. I don't know how muchlast five years, 10 years. And
(01:01:21):
I was a big fan when it cameGervais version as well. But I
remember just cackling andin the day. And now it's kind
of cringy a lot of it islike, like that
uncomfortableness and theit doesn't feel like it's been
(01:01:42):
that long. I guess that was20 years. No, it
Alex (01:01:47):
wasn't the night. I
Jarret (01:01:47):
think it was 2000s.
Early 2000s. Okay, well,
Kelly (01:01:50):
yeah, even less time then. That
Alex (01:01:52):
was cringe comedy, like Scott's tots was cringy then
Like that is cringy. But it
Kelly (01:01:59):
feels even more than dinner party. It even feels it
it. If that show. Somebodytold me maybe it was you,
the the office was gettingrebooted. Which, which I'm
going to do that. Because itfeels like that would be
(01:02:19):
off more people than it madelaugh. Because back then it
laugh.
Jarret (01:02:23):
Well, I do feel like we're talking about two
there's the sort of ironicsexism and racism that was in
you've got this character whomeans well, but they have a
And it kind of comes out likein the episode where he's
having everybody walk aroundwith cards. I'm winning the
(01:02:47):
blah, blah, blah. But thenthere's also like, like, I
making this decision, and ithurts to watch them, you know,
girl. And he thinks that theway to, you know do it is to
on nine dates, you know, like,those are two completely
mechanisms. I think, now,where the, I can't believe
(01:03:09):
of comedy comes from, I'venever found that to be all
like, I have a really hardtime watching people be
like that. Now, where theironic racism and sexism stuff
little bit more tolerance forit earlier, because I don't
(01:03:31):
think we we viewed it as beinga part of the solution, as
problem. And I remembergrowing up with this in the
PC was the thing back then.
And me and my friends used tobit being very Kaufman like
that there was this underknew about was that we were
good progressives who did notwas
Kelly (01:03:56):
right on, you're saying that to be ironic, you're
but But it's so easy to, to itto hurt somebody's feelings,
with that. And so you're up onstage every night? And, you
know when it's okay? You thinkto yourself, oh, man, I've got
(01:04:17):
to probably tick off thisgroup of people. Should I say
that inner dialogue in yourhead sound like?
Unknown (01:04:24):
Well, I mean, it's, it's a little bit of a
know, you've got, who am Igoing to upset in the
not want to agree with me inthe audience, and this is sort
this ironic, you know, racismand sexism and whatnot, is
it's not part of the solution.
It's part of the problempeople who watch that and
(01:04:46):
think that they're not beingopposed to being ironic and
it's bad. I can tell I canhave done jokes that are
ironically anti Some medic orsomebody will come up to them
after the show, and say thatwhat? That it was funny. And
(01:05:07):
so there are a lot ofwho are moving away from that
kind of irony, because wewe think that we need to stop
making those kinds of jokes.
Kelly (01:05:20):
we were talking about Dave, earlier de bird and
actually a part where I thinksome frat guys come up to him
what you were talking about inand I forget what the song
being ironic in the song, andthey're agreeing with him. And
by that. So it's, yeah, yeah,it's, you know, everybody's
(01:05:43):
it's called, it's called the,the YouTubes, and the podcasts
so easy to get heard by peoplewho will take you out of
Unknown (01:05:54):
Yeah, I have done no research into this. But I
a data scientist God on this,that we could see a
semitism that started withpotentially the ironic anti
Park, because the reason whyanti semitism was funny in
(01:06:15):
so it was such an old andantiquated version of, of
bringing it back. And thenpeople started bringing it
know, when I was a waiter, myfriends would throw pennies on
like, Oh, this is so funny tobe to pretend to be anti
into real anti semitism. Andnow, you know, like, we've got
(01:06:39):
again, you know? Yeah, yeah,the guy who did Bojack
interview, where he talkedabout this, where he was like,
all day, all right, to have acharacter who is racist, or
justify it by saying that it'sjust the character, but we
the audience does with thatmaterial. And we don't have as
(01:07:00):
right. If
Kelly (01:07:01):
they're putting if they're putting him on a flag,
they do terrible things topeople. That's not good.
Unknown (01:07:07):
Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, is it is it is a
interesting journey. It is anadventure and yeah, it is
Kelly (01:07:17):
do you pick on people?
Do you like do you like pickAnd you know, kind of like,
what's your name, sir? How arehim? Or, you know,
Unknown (01:07:28):
extremely rarely extremely rare, whatever, you
Yeah, I do a little bit ofcrowd work. I even write
be crowd work. Mostly, if I'mever gonna go after an
they are being disruptive orhave said something offensive
kind of comedy that I have.
Made a a cornerstone, youI like to be as a comedian you
(01:07:56):
know, 5% Kaufmann 5% that
Kelly (01:08:00):
so if you go to a Jarrett Berenstein show, you
feel like you're gonna you
Unknown (01:08:06):
can wear the dumbest shirt you want. I am not going
Challenge.
Alex (01:08:13):
I wanted to mention just one more cringe comic that I
mention him because he's oneof my favorite cringe guys out
opinion, really genius stuff.
That had to be influenced byNathan fields. Oh,
Jarret (01:08:29):
yeah, absolutely.
Alex (01:08:31):
I mean, Nathan, for you is one of my favorite shows
recent show the curse, therehearsed HBO show, before
incredible stuff. But really,if like, I'm really careful
Unknown (01:08:50):
I mean, he's just good. He's just so good. I
watching some of that stuff.
But you cannot deny how funnyclever and creative it is. And
yeah, direct line, one to one
Alex (01:09:05):
to empathic. It hurts to watch really bad for the chat.
Unknown (01:09:11):
My wife was just with that stuff. I cannot watch too
Alex (01:09:15):
I don't think I would watch this like, but just like
not sure who is in on the gym,like that's part of it. And
maybe I'm not in there on thejoke like, Yeah, you don't
Kelly (01:09:27):
I just I do not. But not being in on the joke. I
interesting today that, youknow, the, you know, the
know, I am not a robot. Thepurpose of those is to prove
you know what they're reallylooking at? Like if you have
you know, show all thepictures of bicycles. So
(01:09:50):
at if you get the answer rightor not. They're looking at how
an algorithm that can tell thedifference between how the
human, and that's what it'slooking at. And so you can I
gotten one of those wrong,like, you know, you've gotten
through. But it's my point is,you know, where did this come
(01:10:13):
about this? Is, is you don'tknow you're you're not in on
know you think you think thatyou are solving one thing and
completely different thanbeing looked at in a
determine whether you're a botor not, you know, I
Unknown (01:10:28):
mean, CAPTCHA has always been one of my favorite
Andy Kaufman stuff captures.
Alex (01:10:39):
Who ever thought we'd end?
Kelly (01:10:44):
Well, what? Well, oh, go ahead.
Alex (01:10:47):
Go ahead with your question. Oh, I
Kelly (01:10:49):
was just gonna ask what what? You know, how do people
You
Unknown (01:10:55):
can check out Jared bernstein.com I've got all my
my upcoming projects. I am aregular poster of videos on
see me be really moralisticand intolerable. from a
do live sometimes I'm actuallyleaving to go on my honeymoon
(01:11:19):
for a while. But when I comeback again, yeah, check me out
where you're going? That iswhere we're going. Yeah. Wow.
Alex (01:11:28):
But what so when you said social media, you're
Unknown (01:11:34):
I yeah, I'm not not on there. I don't think that
content. But yeah, you canfind me on Tik Tok and
that stuff where I post myvideos I do lives on tick tock
yeah, Joe breaks into calm isreally the home base for all
Kelly (01:11:58):
Have you been to Japan before?
Unknown (01:11:59):
I have not noticed is very exciting. Excited.
Kelly (01:12:02):
Are you going to Kyoto?
We aren't. Yeah, that's wheretime. Oh, man. I just I hate
to admit how I know aboutfeed Phil and Phil Phil. Phil.
Rosenthal went to Kyoto andthat show, it's like a travel
food show. It's I enjoy it.
(01:12:26):
song in the world. Whoo.
Unknown (01:12:27):
All right. Well check it out just for that. Yes.
Alex (01:12:31):
Well, thanks, Jarrett, for being our guest today.
comedy, all things AndyKaufman talking about cringe
being our very first guest onthis
Unknown (01:12:46):
was an absolute honor to break this new ground with
my philosophical musings aboutthe deeper arts of creativity
Alex (01:13:01):
Definitely. Thanks. I
Kelly (01:13:02):
appreciate it.
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