November 12, 2021 • 36 mins
Shelly sits down with Project Manager, Jenny Angell to discuss the two year long project that the Pa Museums and Historical Sites have undertaken to identify what changes they can make to create accessible excellence throughout the state. If your organization could use a fresh look, contact Jenny to obtain a packet.
Pa Museums website: https://pamuseums.org/accessibility-excellence/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:05):
Welcome to DisAbility Talks, a podcast produced by
Abilities in Motion.
I'm your host, Shelly Houser.
Join us for real conversationsand no nonsense talk from
everyday people withdisabilities, living their most
independent everyday lives.
Tune in for the latest newssurrounding disability,
accessibility and independence.
(00:25):
Where conversations aren'tdissed, and stories that need to
be told aren't missed.
So let's talk.
Shelly (00:34):
In 2019, Pennsylvania museums was awarded a two year
grant study to look at theaccessibility standards
throughout the state ofPennsylvania.
Dubbed the AccessibilityExcellence Project, Project
Manager, Jenny Angell, and herteam partnered with local
centers for independent livingtogether information from the
perspective of persons withdisabilities and where their
historical sites should improveaccessibility features.
(00:58):
I was part of this project, so Idecided to sit down with Jenny
as our project is wrapping up.
So the day, Jenny, how are youtoday?
Jenny (01:05):
I'm good.
How are you, Shelly?
It's a pleasure to be here.
Shelly (01:08):
Yeah.
Good to see you get again.
We had this journey together forthe last year, I guess, off and
on?
Jenny (01:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Starting with the pilot for thepaws project in the, in the
summer helped us with our sitevisits for which we're super,
super grateful.
It was, it was amazing to, tomeet you and, and the other
folks from AIM, team as part ofthat.
Shelly (01:30):
Yeah, exactly.
So for our listeners worldwide,tell us what this accessibility
project is all about.
Jenny (01:39):
Sure.
Thing, this is, as you mentionedearlier, um, a grant from the
Institute of Museum and LibraryServices, it's a national
leadership and museums grant.
And our goal is to design apilot, a self-assessment program
to help museums establish theiraccessibility baseline and also
to help meet national standardsfor museum accessibility, we're
(02:02):
recognizing that this issomething that the museum field
is really looking at both morespecifically and also a s, as
part of larger DEAI initiatives.
A nd, and w e're, we're kind ofrecognizing this is a, this is a
gap that that should be filled.
And so t he, the grant itself is a partnership between Pa
museums, which is the statewidemuseum p rofessional association
(02:26):
here in Pennsylvania and thePennsylvania Historical and
Museum Commissions Bureau ofHistoric Sites and Museums.
So this is the state governmentagency that oversees, u m, all
of the state owned and operatedhistoric sites here in
Pennsylvania.
So those are our museum, peoplewho are in the mix, but we also
(02:47):
have an Accessibility AdvisoryCouncil a s part of our project
team, which includes folks fromour local center for independent
living here in Harrisburg, whichis the CIL of Central PA as, as
other national and localaccessibility experts.
Shelly (03:03):
Good.
So the ADA has been out 30, 31years as of this year.
Why now did they decide to dothis study?
Jenny (03:12):
But the decision was made kind of before I was hired, but
what, what I've learned alongthe process was that this came
out of the historical museum,the state commissions, diversity
equity inclusion, andaccessibility plan that started
in 2018, but it's now part oftheir 2020 strategic plan and
(03:34):
vision.
But the PHMC decided to partnerwith PA Museums to, to go for
this grant because we reallywanted to, to focus on a tool
that would be not only usablefor, for the museums in the
state system to help them meetthose goals and meet this plan,
but also to develop a toolkitthat would be usable for all
(03:56):
different kinds of museums, allover the state and all over the
country.
This is a, this is a nationalgrant.
And part of the Pennsylvaniamuseums membership is that an
includes all different types ofmuseums, everything from
children's museums, sciencecenters, arboreta botanical
gardens, um, as well as kind ofsmall to medium historic sites,
(04:18):
which are most of the, the Euroof historic sites and museums
membership.
And so these, these smallersites were really our testing
ground for the toolkit.
Um, so that gave them anopportunity to get a, get a
headstart on improving theiraccessibility through using this
toolkit, enter testing it.
And also by having the staffmembers be, uh, members of the
(04:43):
projects working group that kindof allowed staff to build their,
build their knowledge andunderstanding about this.
Shelly (04:50):
That's great that they're looking at arboretums
and children, things andhistorical sites and the whole,
they're encompassing the wholegamut of visitors, centers and
spaces.
Jenny (05:03):
We're trying, that's the goal.
Shelly (05:06):
That's a lot.
Do you know, since this is anationwide grant, have you heard
that other states are actuallypartaking in this kind of, um,
study as well in other states?
Jenny (05:15):
So we're definitely looking at the first phase of
this project is really focusinga lot on research and exploring
kind of benchmarking around thisfield.
There, it was another museumthat received an IMLS leadership
grant like we did in the sameyear.
I think, gosh, I'm totallyblanking on the name, but, um,
they're doing a study about, Ithink, exhibits for people with
(05:38):
on the autism spectrum.
But as far as for somethingthat's really broad ranging and
designed to, to helpaccessibility specifically,
there are a lot of kind of broadDEAI tool kits out there, which
we're revisiting right now andlooking to see how we can kind
of not, not reinvent the wheel,where we go as far as for
(05:58):
pushing for broader inclusion.
But also, um, to, to kind of tiein with the, with the work
that's already been done, butalso push it forward and realize
where there are gaps and wherewe can help fill that in.
Shelly (06:11):
So this project is so all encompassing and seems like
overwhelming huge.
Jenny (06:15):
( laughter) Tell me about it!
Shelly (06:19):
How did you even begin to organize this project and how
many other locations wereinvolved in this study?
Jenny (06:27):
So the project itself had three phases.
I kind of talked a little bitearlier about the exploratory
phase, which was the first onewhere we were doing a lot of
research, kind of looking at,looking at what was going on as
well as actually writing whatwas going to become the toolkit
that lasted about a year,obviously COVID, it was supposed
(06:48):
to last about like, I thinkeight or nine months, uh, COVID
impact of that.
It did last about a year, andhonestly it needed that time for
staff to do the research, buildtheir own knowledge basises,
understand exactly what we wereundertaking, um, and, and have
some, some good, useful debates.
Like what, what isaccessibility?
There's, there's a bunch ofdifferent organizations in the
(07:09):
field professional organizationsnationally that have developed
their own definitions ofaccessibility and they're all
subtly different.
So we had to kind of thinkabout, okay, where, where do we
want to stand here?
The second phase was the pilotphase.
So that was Shelly, what youwere, what you were part of this
involved regional centers forindependent living partnering
(07:32):
with the 20 bureau of historicmuseums sites to do site visits,
test out the toolkit, just kindof see, see how this was working
in, in the field, so to speak.
And then the third phase, whichwe're getting into now is more
focused on, on revision andresults.
So we started off as a, as atwo-year grant.
(07:55):
Um, we did, we're lucky enoughto receive an extension from
IMLS.
So right now we are looking towrap up in the summer, probably
June of 2022.
Um, we were scheduled to end inDecember and that isn't going to
happen now.
Um, but part, part of what wasso exciting about the pilot is
that we really got a chance tounderstand how this would work.
(08:19):
You're you're talking about how,how big this project is and how
broad museums are as a field.
Having the bureau sites to useas kind of a testing lab was a
really great opportunity becausewe had a chance to work with
sites like the Daniel Boonehomestead, which was one of
those sites that you visited,which is as you're going to test
300 acres, it's massive to siteslike the Erie Maritime Museum,
(08:42):
which is a kind of moretraditional museum, but also
includes a tall ship.
The Bird Niagara reproduction ofthat is, is part of that site.
So how do you, how do you make atall ship accessible?
We had to ask ourselves thatquestion and we're also just,
just every site was, wasdifferent.
Um, a lot of historic sites.
So we had to kind of grapplewith those issues about historic
(09:02):
buildings and accessibility, andreally just, just kind of look
at, look at every site and lookat every staff's needs to.
Not only were the sites reallydifferent, but the staff and
what situations they were in is,was very different from, from
site to site.
Shelly (09:17):
Yeah.
You talked about this toolkit ofsorts.
Is that what you use to capturethe information at every site
and what is this toolkit looklike?
Jenny (09:28):
So the toolkit itself is, um, right now it's got two major
parts.
We're looking to expand uponthat a little bit in the next
phase.
Um, but the first part is a selfassessment.
So this is something that museumstaff can look at, fill out and
kind of gauge their baseline.
We use a four tier system tosort of, um, so what for the
(09:51):
pilot phase, we did use thisself-assessment to, um, kind of
go through the site visit andask folks from the centers for
independent living to completethe self-assessment as staff to
complete the self assessment.
Um, and then kind of had, uh,had a debrief discussion about
where, where folks saw theopportunities for improvement,
where there were barriers, um,and, and had a chance to do a
(10:14):
little creative problem solving,which was really great.
Um, the other piece of thetoolkit is, um, a collection of
resource guides.
So these are designed for whenafter staff have completed that
self-assessment kind of figuredout, okay, where are we going to
, where are we going to go fromhere?
Um, and those resource guidesare really designed to provide
(10:38):
resources for taking those nextsteps.
So to help kind of mitigate thatissue of, oh God, there's so
much to do.
Or we just don't know where tostart.
Here are some resources, hereare some things that, that we've
added that we've either founduseful or have seen other
museums find useful, um, toreally go and, and actually do
(10:59):
the work, which is the hardestpart.
Um, you can, you can sit and youcan think about it all day, but
actually getting that done.
That's where the real work is.
Shelly (11:07):
Yeah.
And that's tricky part, but Ithink we're going to take a
commercial break and we'll beback after this
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Shelly (12:03):
So I wanted to get into more of the staff, like our IT
guy, Matt and myself, that wepartnered you partnered with
around the state from otherlocal CIL's or center for
independent living.
How were, how were we essentialor vital to your project?
Jenny (12:22):
Yes, absolutely.
We, we wouldn't have thetoolkits that we have right now
without involvement from centersfor independent living.
So this was really mostlyhappening in the pilot phase.
Although we did work reallyclosely with, um, Jeanetta
Green, who's the ExecutiveDirector at PACIL of central PA.
She's been involved with theproject from the start and
(12:43):
really helped, helped give us,give us a little perspective
while we were developing thetoolkit, but actually bringing
folks in and having thatdialogue with staff at the
different sites as part of thepilot was to me the most
valuable experience.
So this, this involves kind ofrecruiting local center for
independent living staff or, andor consumers.
(13:05):
Sometimes we had boats.
Sometimes it was just one or theother to actually come to the
sites.
As I said before, kind of workon the, self-assessment have a
conversation with the staff,really building that
partnership.
I kind of framed this with thestaff and starting the
conversation is this is, this isgoing to be your first
conversation, hopefully of many.
This isn't just the one and donewere done.
(13:27):
Check we've completed thetoolkit.
This, this is something wherethis is a valuable resource.
And also, um, I think some ofthe feedback that we got from
folks in the CIL's is this ishelping to complete part of the
center for independent livingend date of involvement in the
community.
So most museums really want tobe seen as a community anchor.
And so we're really helping kindof provide, provided, provide
(13:50):
another site for folks to, toget involved with, um, via, via
the museums that they werevisiting
Shelly (13:57):
With you going around and visiting the sites with
these partners from CIl's.
Do you have any great takeawaystories of some simple fix that
the museum didn't realize wouldjust a simple change would make
things so much more accessiblefor their guests?
Jenny (14:16):
Oh yeah.
It was really interestingbecause we had a lot of things
that were unique to the sites.
Obviously each site being alittle bit different, but one
thing that came up again andagain and again, and I know Sh
elly, this came up in your visitas well was, was something
simple, like signage andpathways an d m aking sure th
at, that your pathways are notonly we ll-maintained, but that
(14:37):
you look out for these, thesetiny things, even a crack in the
sidewalk, or I think you weretalking about the slope on that
really rainy day an d t h at w ehad a Boone, talking about how
something like that might notseem li ke, like a barrier, but
actually can a pretty majorissue.
And also having that experience,I think having staff like you
and Matt there, where you've notonly got the lived experience,
(14:59):
but you've also got theprofessional experience.
So this is, this is somethingthat you're used to doing that,
you know, how to frame in a waythat might not, might not kind
of cause that defensivereaction, but you ar e s aying,
you know, here, this is, this issomething that we in volve,
we're willing to help youcreatively pr oblem-solve a nd
talk about some things th at,that have worked well for us in
the past.
(15:20):
And I think that really helpedthe staff, but okay.
Yeah, this is something we needto improve, but it's doable.
We can handle it.
And even something that was alittle bit bigger, I think
having, having the opportunityto have that conversation and
just say, Hey, you know, we're,we're not here to file a lawsuit
on you.
We're here to, to try and workcollaboratively to make it
better.
(15:40):
Ab solutely.
That was, I think a major kindof aha moment for the staff of,
oh, okay.
We can, we can be in thistogether.
It's not an us versus themsituation.
Shelly (15:50):
Yeah.
So I know one of the other sitesthat I didn't visit had a woman
that was a wheelchair user andthere was a bookshelf or
something in front of theaccessible lift to get her into
the train car.
Is that right?
So tell us about, tell us aboutthat story.
Jenny (16:09):
Yeah.
So that was, that was our veryfirst site visit and there was
so, so we were going into thisyear, we were ready to learn.
Um, but yeah, we had two, twofolks from, um, the, the local
still in Lancaster and they werecoming up at the railroad museum
was, was really excited forthis.
(16:29):
Their, their staff is super,super enthusiastic and they're
like, yeah, you know, we, we'vegot this mobile lift that we use
because their, their collectionis mostly roling stock.
So train cars, engines, thatsort of thing.
Um, so something that you, youdon't think of, especially if
you're looking to get to it fromthe ground as being accessible
(16:49):
to someone who uses awheelchair, but they were like,
and we, we went in, we werehaving some staff wheel this in
and they realized that one oftheir, um, glass exhibit cases
was actually in the path thatthe lift needed to go into to
get access to the train carsthat we were trying to get
through.
And so our site administratorand a couple of the staff
(17:13):
members just said, okay, youknow, we can this thing, isn't
on, isn't bolted to the floor.
We can just lift it up, move itdown a couple inches.
And that's this new permanenthome.
And now that train car is muchmore accessible, should a
visitor come and want to use thelift to, to get into it.
And once they did move thatcase, she was able to get in and
really enjoyed it.
It was able to have a full andequivalent experience, which is,
(17:35):
which is the goal here.
Shelly (17:37):
Yeah.
And that was the partnershipthat we as persons with
disabilities through the CIL,hoping to, to obtain with, with
each site location.
So you are an able-bodied personand we don't judge, we don't
judge you for that.
But I put you in, in awheelchair at Daniel Boone on a
(17:59):
rainy day.
What did you learn as anable-bodied person, um, going
through getting into thatbuilding, and then you decided
to challenge yourself to get onand off the toilet without a
grab bar, tell our listenersthat little experience.
And what, from your perspectiveyou learned about maybe some of
(18:21):
our daily challenges.
Jenny (18:23):
Yeah.
I mean, it was, it was a major,a major wake up call for sure.
Um, this was, this was goinginto a building, but, um, I
think it was the, the WaysideLodge at Boone that we were,
that we were going into, whichis kind of used as a, they said
they use it as like a Scoutcamping space.
So there's, there's beds,there's a bathroom.
Um, it's not a historicbuilding, but it's, it's got
(18:45):
some, some historicsignificance.
So the staff were really like,you know, we, we want to change
this.
We want to be able to make itaccessible for, should we have a
Scout group that's got somebodywho's a wheelchair user.
So Shelly's like, you know, Hey,I've got a, got a folding chair
in the back of my car, up inthis thing and let's go.
Um, and, and it was really justthinking about every single
(19:06):
thing from the, the slope of thepathway going.
And there was a pretty sizeablelip on the doorway that I nearly
did an endo on trying to get incause I thought I could just
power through and Nope.
Um, and so, and then getting inthe door, which was, which was
barely there and then trying touse the bathroom because they
were, they were trying to figureout, you know, will this work as
(19:27):
an accessible bathroom with somemodifications?
And there were, there were nograb bars.
There was barely enough turningradius if I remember correctly.
And I pretty much had to, inorder to transfer him, the chair
had to like touch the toiletseat, shimmy out over.
And it was, it was a situationwhere I was like, oh y eah, no,
this is not a good situation asit stands right now.
(19:50):
An d, and I think that was areally good ey e-opener f or the
staff to o, to realize just allthese little things that can
snowball and add up in t heexperience of folks.
Shelly (20:01):
Yeah.
You know, I, I put you in thatsituation, not because I don't
like you, I done like you' verymuch! But rather if I just tell
you, or, or if Matt had beenthere, Matt just tells you, this
is what he goes through to donand doff off the toilet and get
through a building.
It wouldn't have made as much ofan impact.
(20:24):
And I, I wanted, I wanted anable-bodied person to be in that
moment and feel the challengeand the frustration and the
thought process that it goesthrough something as simple as
going to the bathroom, you know,everybody is different.
And I think it was a hugeeye-opener and I'm very grateful
that you didn't give up and thatyou stopped.
(20:46):
And really like, Hey, if I, if Iwas a wheelchair user, you know,
how would I problem solve thiswhen we say we're problem
solvers?
Because it wasn't world wasn'tbuilt for us.
That's exactly what we mean.
That was just one littlechallenge that we threw at you
and you did a brilliant, you didit brilliantly, you toughed it
(21:07):
out.
I was very proud of you, but,
Jenny (21:14):
Um, I'm a former educator, so I love stuff like
that.
Um, but yeah, it was, and it wasalso, I think in all honesty,
that's been something that we'vereally been working through is a
challenge with this program.
Is that in this project, is thatyes, it's, it's well-intentioned
but the core of the people, yes,we do have a number of people
(21:34):
with disabilities who are onour, on our advisory council,
but the core of our workinggroup is non-disabled museum
people, most of whom are white,most of whom are straight.
Most of whom are cis-gender,there's a lot of that empathy
building that needs to happen.
And also realizing that there's,there's a line where our lived
experience only takes us so far,and we need to really hand
(21:56):
things over and say, you know,we need help on this, which as
museum staff and being used tokind of being seen as the
experts on things can be reallychallenging sometimes.
Shelly (22:10):
But I think I appreciate actually from our perspective
here a t, at aim that themuseums and statewide are at
least having this conversationand going beyond the
conversation of, if we just hadsome Scouts build some portable
ramps or removed the stone overand made it bigger and, u m, add
(22:33):
some lighting.
And so we talked about sensoryissues.
We talked about, u h, howpersons with blindness would or
deafness would, u m, experiencedifferent sites in different
ways.
So I think we really encompassedat least in the s ites that Matt
and I were at with you, a widevariety of disabilities and not
(22:53):
just, y ou k now, the top mainones that everybody normally
thinks about.
Jenny (22:57):
Yeah, definitely.
That, and that was somethingwhere, where we were really
trying to, I know I had had abig conversation with some of
our partners and folks who werehelping set up the visits and
saying, you know, we, we reallyneed a diverse array of folks
who want to sell yeah.
Recognizing that typical.
So consumers that, that thereare things that tend to kind of
(23:19):
tip towards for mobilitydisabilities.
But also, I mean, having, Ithink it was when you were at
the, at one of the site visitswhere you're talking about, you
know, there's another staffmember in your office who's
blind, um, or there's, there'sother, so particularly with the
sales staff, it was really greatto say, you know, here I I'm
here representing accessibility,but there's, I've got a friend
(23:42):
or I've got a work colleague orthere's somebody else at the
seller, there's somebody else atthe statewide level that can
help with, with this particularthing, or here's a resource that
you might not have heard ofbefore.
Like that was, that was reallyuseful for us because I think
that's, that's something thatwe're trying to go for with this
scope.
And that we're recognizing is,is a major challenge where we,
we want to be able to get asmany perspectives as possible,
(24:05):
but we're also in this timelimitation.
So how do we, how do we do that?
Um, and do that successfullyrather than saying, you know,
we're, we're just going to saywhat we think this particular
community needs and not actuallyask them.
Shelly (24:19):
I see the medical physicians do it.
You know, I think a lot of othercommunities just think that they
know better and they areprofessionals in their field.
And we do acknowledge that.
But what I teach on disabilityand awareness, I teach them, you
know, you are going to bringyour professional perspective
and experience, but let us bringexperience our lived experience
(24:42):
to the table as well, andcombine that together.
And that there is no animosityof, I'm going to tell you what
to do, or I'm going to Sue youkind of attitude of more of like
let's put our minds together andcreate something amazing
together.
And that's what I loved aboutbeing part of this project.
So very much
Jenny (25:03):
A hundred percent that's, that's, that's our goal too.
And I think that's somethingwhere we were really able to
recognize, you know, we, we bothwant the same thing here, right?
So let's, let's create a reallysolid partnership because we're,
we're looking at the same goal.
We both want, want these museumsand these sites to be more
accessible, maybe for differentreasons, but the goal is the
(25:25):
same.
And so how can we work togetherto, to achieve that?
And yeah, I've, I was a hundredpercent super grateful for that
as well, because that's, that'sthe way to do it.
Shelly (25:35):
I think we had a lot of fun along the way that we were
at together.
Um, Matt challenged you up aramp in your manual chair and he
used his electric chair and hecheated,
Jenny (25:47):
Oh my God, I'm forever grateful for Matt for chewing up
the, up the hill, like ConradWeiser homestead.
Oh my God, my a rms still neverrecovered.
My biceps are about an inchbigger.
It was going up, going up a hillto a, u m, a statue at one of
the historic sites.
And again, I was in that, inthat f olding manual chair and
(26:09):
oh man, I tried, but
Shelly (26:13):
No pain, no gain.
Yeah.
Jenny (26:17):
Massive, thanks to Matt for that.
But it was also such a greatexample of like, Hey, here's,
here's how we help each other.
And it might look a littleunconventional, but God, it
works.
Shelly (26:29):
That is the story of our everyday life I'm telling you.
So now that you've wrapped upthe physical site visits, you
and your team, uh, presented atthe MaaM conference last month,
what,, what is the MaaMconference and what feedback did
you receive from the personsthat tapped into a learn more
(26:50):
about that?
Jenny (26:53):
Yeah, so, um, ma'am, it's I'm MaaM, which is stands for
the Mid-Atlantic MuseumsAssociation.
So this is our regional museumprofessional organization here
in Mid-Atlantic states.
That's I believe Pennsylvania,New Jersey, um, Maryland and DC
I think is, is represented inthat region, represented in that
(27:15):
conference.
And the, the theme of theconference this year was
centering people at your museum.
And so we were like, alright,this is, this is perfect for us.
Um, and we, we really, it wasreally great to hear, um, your
from, from different museumstaff, obviously the, the
audience of this particularconference is aimed at museum
(27:36):
staff in, in this particularregion.
So hearing from, from differentmuseums who weren't involved in
the pilot, um, museums, thatthat might not be kind of, of
the, of the type that we got totest out at, um, or just
particularly people who wereearlier in, in their, in their
career.
So a lot of emergingprofessionals or college or grad
(27:57):
students are part of thisconference.
So it was really great to hearwhat's been, been talked about
in these, these museum studiesprograms, how that can, can help
us moving forward.
And also what, what, what wewere getting that echo on of,
yes, this is definitely animprovement that needs to be
made.
Um, but also just hearingwhat's, what's kinda new in
(28:18):
these programs and how theseyounger staff or future,
hopefully staff see us as theirrole and, and see us as how they
would possibly be, be using thistoolkit, even if they may not
have a particular museum to testit out right now.
Shelly (28:34):
So, but it's good that they're thinking about it and
that the younger, newer staffcoming in interns and college
students, if they can make abig, bigger impact as they move
through their career with freshideas.
So that might be fine for them.
Jenny (28:50):
Exactly.
Yeah.
It was one of the, one of theother sessions that was going on
was a bunch of, of students thatone of these museum programs
presenting their theses.
And I was like, oh man, this isnumber one, flashes me back to
doing the same thing, you know,but also is like, you know what?
This is, this is where thefuture is.
An an honestly was kind ofaffirming for me as I'm like,
this is, this is on track.
(29:11):
Like not all of them were DEAIfocused, but this, this push
towards greater, greater socialjustice, greater environmental
sustainability is somethingthat's top of mind for all of
these students right now aremost of these students right
now.
So hearing that is like, allright, we're with the trends,
(29:32):
right.
For the kids.
But also that we're, that we'redoing the work that on one hand
still needs to be done.
But on the other hand, there arepeople are still really excited
and energized to be doing thiswork, which is great.
Shelly (29:47):
Yeah.
No, thank you for doing thiswork because it is very, very
important, you know, not onlyhere in the state of
Pennsylvania, but nationwideand, you know, for all the
beautiful museums that are inEurope that may need some, need
to think about someaccessibility issues.
There's those museums andhistorical places are much older
than in Pennsylvania by a fewhundred years.
(30:10):
So yeah, now that you move intophase three and your project is
wrapping up, what's next for youand your team?
Jenny (30:18):
So we are deep into editing, uh, right now that's,
that's really where we'relooking at is learning from the
lessons.
How can we make this this betterand more user-friendly um, when
we were piloting it, it was a 30page word document, which we got
some pretty quick feedback over.
This is intense.
This is way too much.
(30:39):
How can we, how be in a formatthat your, your average kind of
stressed out of their mind,museum staff, her or your, your
staff of one, are your staffmade up entirely of volunteers?
How can we put this in a waythat's not dumbing it down, but
in a way that makes it seem alittle less intimidating, but
(31:00):
checking all these boxes in a 30page document, um, other piece
we're really working on issomething kind of in the middle
to help museums create, uh, anaccessibility transition plan.
So a way to take their, theirscore or take some of the things
that they've identified incompleting the self-assessment
and really put on paper, okay.
(31:22):
How are you going to concretelytake action on this?
When are you going to concretelytake action on it?
Who understaffed or have yourvolunteers is going to be
responsible for this?
And, and this is in one way,kind of a, uh, uh, a legal thing
for the ADA.
So in case there are somechallenges you can say, Hey,
here's, here's our plan.
(31:43):
Here's what we're doing.
Here's what we've already done.
Here's what we're looking to doin the future.
Um, but also just to, as we'vetalked about before this idea of
taking the action is the hardestpart.
So how to help with that actualtaking action piece, um, and not
just leave it up the ruminatingstage.
(32:04):
And then also we're, we'rereally looking at how can we, we
tie this into broader DEAI work.
I know there's, there's always alot of, a lot of talk within
disability communities of, Hey,don't forget that a N DEAI a
every time I see a job postingwhere it's like diversity equity
and inclusion coordinator, alittle piece of me dies because
(32:26):
I'm like, I hope you're not likeI, I get the commute to condense
and rename, but don't forgetwell, disabilities in this work,
because this is, this is notsomething that can be dropped
off at a, is there for a reason,but also we really want to make
sure, you know, think aboutwhere we can, can push things
forward and where we're notmarginalizing other, other
(32:48):
communities that have beenmarginalized or that are facing
barriers to access to museums.
And also a lot of this does havea lot of cross pollination for,
for people with disabilities aswell.
So for something like the costof a ticket as a barrier to
entry, that that can, can do alot of things that can lower
(33:09):
barriers for folks, not onlywith, with people with
disabilities, but also folks whomight be on other sorts of
social supports and need that toactually get, to get through the
door of a museum where we'redoing a lot of thinking of,
okay, what does it take to getthrough the door?
And then what does it take tocreate an equitable and
inclusive museum experience?
Shelly (33:33):
One thing I can say is having a lower cost for their
aid that might be with them ortheir partners, spouse, and
spinners, to help them through,to transfer in the bathrooms
there, to help them be able toreach the counter, to get lunch
or carry their, their item thatthey purchased.
(33:54):
All of those things are so veryimportant as you guys move
through this phase three of thisproject.
So if any of our listeners outthere nationwide, worldwide,
want to tap into this wonderfulproject and find out more, where
can our listeners find out moreabout this accessibility
excellence project?
Jenny (34:14):
Yeah, so we have, as I mentioned, that the toolkit is
scheduled to be released in thesummer of 2022, most likely, but
we do have on the PA museum'swebsite, a page available where
you can sign up to receive thetoolkit as soon as it is
released.
So that website you are out isPA museums.org/accessibility,
(34:38):
and then a hyphen excellence.
And I really hope to see, seemore people signing up for this
as well, especially folks who,who might be outside of the
museum profession, but know afriend or want to share this
toolkit with, with their localmuseum.
That would be amazing.
We would love to see that.
Shelly (34:59):
Yes.
Thank you so very much, we willput that website address in the
show description.
So look for it there on ourwebsite.
And thank you Jenny so much foryour time and your efforts with
all of this on the statewidehuge project.
We here at our CIL reallyappreciate all the efforts and
conversation that we've had forthe last year regarding this.
Jenny (35:21):
You're welcome.
I'm so glad to be here.
Thanks for inviting me, Shelly.
This is really great too, tohave another format to chat
about the project and also to,to continue our conversation as
well.
Shelly (35:32):
Exactly.
Very good.
And to our listeners worldwide,thank you for joining us and
forget to hit that like andsubscribe button, but you never
miss the opportunity to listento DisAbility Talks.
Music (36:01):
[inaudible]
Outro (36:05):
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of DisAbilityTalks
want to keep the conversationgoing then visit our website at
abilitiesinmotion.org or connectwith us on social media.
And remember don't dis myability.
Welcome to DisAbility Talks, a podcast produced by
Abilities in Motion.
I'm your host, Shelly Houser.
Join us for real conversationsand no nonsense talk from
everyday people withdisabilities, living their most
independent everyday lives.
Tune in for the latest newssurrounding disability,
accessibility and independence.
(00:25):
Where conversations aren'tdissed, and stories that need to
be told aren't missed.
So let's talk.
Shelly (00:34):
In 2019, Pennsylvania museums was awarded a two year
grant study to look at theaccessibility standards
throughout the state ofPennsylvania.
Dubbed the AccessibilityExcellence Project, Project
Manager, Jenny Angell, and herteam partnered with local
centers for independent livingtogether information from the
perspective of persons withdisabilities and where their
historical sites should improveaccessibility features.
(00:58):
I was part of this project, so Idecided to sit down with Jenny
as our project is wrapping up.
So the day, Jenny, how are youtoday?
Jenny (01:05):
I'm good.
How are you, Shelly?
It's a pleasure to be here.
Shelly (01:08):
Yeah.
Good to see you get again.
We had this journey together forthe last year, I guess, off and
on?
Jenny (01:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Starting with the pilot for thepaws project in the, in the
summer helped us with our sitevisits for which we're super,
super grateful.
It was, it was amazing to, tomeet you and, and the other
folks from AIM, team as part ofthat.
Shelly (01:30):
Yeah, exactly.
So for our listeners worldwide,tell us what this accessibility
project is all about.
Jenny (01:39):
Sure.
Thing, this is, as you mentionedearlier, um, a grant from the
Institute of Museum and LibraryServices, it's a national
leadership and museums grant.
And our goal is to design apilot, a self-assessment program
to help museums establish theiraccessibility baseline and also
to help meet national standardsfor museum accessibility, we're
(02:02):
recognizing that this issomething that the museum field
is really looking at both morespecifically and also a s, as
part of larger DEAI initiatives.
A nd, and w e're, we're kind ofrecognizing this is a, this is a
gap that that should be filled.
And so t he, the grant itself is a partnership between Pa
museums, which is the statewidemuseum p rofessional association
(02:26):
here in Pennsylvania and thePennsylvania Historical and
Museum Commissions Bureau ofHistoric Sites and Museums.
So this is the state governmentagency that oversees, u m, all
of the state owned and operatedhistoric sites here in
Pennsylvania.
So those are our museum, peoplewho are in the mix, but we also
(02:47):
have an Accessibility AdvisoryCouncil a s part of our project
team, which includes folks fromour local center for independent
living here in Harrisburg, whichis the CIL of Central PA as, as
other national and localaccessibility experts.
Shelly (03:03):
Good.
So the ADA has been out 30, 31years as of this year.
Why now did they decide to dothis study?
Jenny (03:12):
But the decision was made kind of before I was hired, but
what, what I've learned alongthe process was that this came
out of the historical museum,the state commissions, diversity
equity inclusion, andaccessibility plan that started
in 2018, but it's now part oftheir 2020 strategic plan and
(03:34):
vision.
But the PHMC decided to partnerwith PA Museums to, to go for
this grant because we reallywanted to, to focus on a tool
that would be not only usablefor, for the museums in the
state system to help them meetthose goals and meet this plan,
but also to develop a toolkitthat would be usable for all
(03:56):
different kinds of museums, allover the state and all over the
country.
This is a, this is a nationalgrant.
And part of the Pennsylvaniamuseums membership is that an
includes all different types ofmuseums, everything from
children's museums, sciencecenters, arboreta botanical
gardens, um, as well as kind ofsmall to medium historic sites,
(04:18):
which are most of the, the Euroof historic sites and museums
membership.
And so these, these smallersites were really our testing
ground for the toolkit.
Um, so that gave them anopportunity to get a, get a
headstart on improving theiraccessibility through using this
toolkit, enter testing it.
And also by having the staffmembers be, uh, members of the
(04:43):
projects working group that kindof allowed staff to build their,
build their knowledge andunderstanding about this.
Shelly (04:50):
That's great that they're looking at arboretums
and children, things andhistorical sites and the whole,
they're encompassing the wholegamut of visitors, centers and
spaces.
Jenny (05:03):
We're trying, that's the goal.
Shelly (05:06):
That's a lot.
Do you know, since this is anationwide grant, have you heard
that other states are actuallypartaking in this kind of, um,
study as well in other states?
Jenny (05:15):
So we're definitely looking at the first phase of
this project is really focusinga lot on research and exploring
kind of benchmarking around thisfield.
There, it was another museumthat received an IMLS leadership
grant like we did in the sameyear.
I think, gosh, I'm totallyblanking on the name, but, um,
they're doing a study about, Ithink, exhibits for people with
(05:38):
on the autism spectrum.
But as far as for somethingthat's really broad ranging and
designed to, to helpaccessibility specifically,
there are a lot of kind of broadDEAI tool kits out there, which
we're revisiting right now andlooking to see how we can kind
of not, not reinvent the wheel,where we go as far as for
(05:58):
pushing for broader inclusion.
But also, um, to, to kind of tiein with the, with the work
that's already been done, butalso push it forward and realize
where there are gaps and wherewe can help fill that in.
Shelly (06:11):
So this project is so all encompassing and seems like
overwhelming huge.
Jenny (06:15):
( laughter) Tell me about it!
Shelly (06:19):
How did you even begin to organize this project and how
many other locations wereinvolved in this study?
Jenny (06:27):
So the project itself had three phases.
I kind of talked a little bitearlier about the exploratory
phase, which was the first onewhere we were doing a lot of
research, kind of looking at,looking at what was going on as
well as actually writing whatwas going to become the toolkit
that lasted about a year,obviously COVID, it was supposed
(06:48):
to last about like, I thinkeight or nine months, uh, COVID
impact of that.
It did last about a year, andhonestly it needed that time for
staff to do the research, buildtheir own knowledge basises,
understand exactly what we wereundertaking, um, and, and have
some, some good, useful debates.
Like what, what isaccessibility?
There's, there's a bunch ofdifferent organizations in the
(07:09):
field professional organizationsnationally that have developed
their own definitions ofaccessibility and they're all
subtly different.
So we had to kind of thinkabout, okay, where, where do we
want to stand here?
The second phase was the pilotphase.
So that was Shelly, what youwere, what you were part of this
involved regional centers forindependent living partnering
(07:32):
with the 20 bureau of historicmuseums sites to do site visits,
test out the toolkit, just kindof see, see how this was working
in, in the field, so to speak.
And then the third phase, whichwe're getting into now is more
focused on, on revision andresults.
So we started off as a, as atwo-year grant.
(07:55):
Um, we did, we're lucky enoughto receive an extension from
IMLS.
So right now we are looking towrap up in the summer, probably
June of 2022.
Um, we were scheduled to end inDecember and that isn't going to
happen now.
Um, but part, part of what wasso exciting about the pilot is
that we really got a chance tounderstand how this would work.
(08:19):
You're you're talking about how,how big this project is and how
broad museums are as a field.
Having the bureau sites to useas kind of a testing lab was a
really great opportunity becausewe had a chance to work with
sites like the Daniel Boonehomestead, which was one of
those sites that you visited,which is as you're going to test
300 acres, it's massive to siteslike the Erie Maritime Museum,
(08:42):
which is a kind of moretraditional museum, but also
includes a tall ship.
The Bird Niagara reproduction ofthat is, is part of that site.
So how do you, how do you make atall ship accessible?
We had to ask ourselves thatquestion and we're also just,
just every site was, wasdifferent.
Um, a lot of historic sites.
So we had to kind of grapplewith those issues about historic
(09:02):
buildings and accessibility, andreally just, just kind of look
at, look at every site and lookat every staff's needs to.
Not only were the sites reallydifferent, but the staff and
what situations they were in is,was very different from, from
site to site.
Shelly (09:17):
Yeah.
You talked about this toolkit ofsorts.
Is that what you use to capturethe information at every site
and what is this toolkit looklike?
Jenny (09:28):
So the toolkit itself is, um, right now it's got two major
parts.
We're looking to expand uponthat a little bit in the next
phase.
Um, but the first part is a selfassessment.
So this is something that museumstaff can look at, fill out and
kind of gauge their baseline.
We use a four tier system tosort of, um, so what for the
(09:51):
pilot phase, we did use thisself-assessment to, um, kind of
go through the site visit andask folks from the centers for
independent living to completethe self-assessment as staff to
complete the self assessment.
Um, and then kind of had, uh,had a debrief discussion about
where, where folks saw theopportunities for improvement,
where there were barriers, um,and, and had a chance to do a
(10:14):
little creative problem solving,which was really great.
Um, the other piece of thetoolkit is, um, a collection of
resource guides.
So these are designed for whenafter staff have completed that
self-assessment kind of figuredout, okay, where are we going to
, where are we going to go fromhere?
Um, and those resource guidesare really designed to provide
(10:38):
resources for taking those nextsteps.
So to help kind of mitigate thatissue of, oh God, there's so
much to do.
Or we just don't know where tostart.
Here are some resources, hereare some things that, that we've
added that we've either founduseful or have seen other
museums find useful, um, toreally go and, and actually do
(10:59):
the work, which is the hardestpart.
Um, you can, you can sit and youcan think about it all day, but
actually getting that done.
That's where the real work is.
Shelly (11:07):
Yeah.
And that's tricky part, but Ithink we're going to take a
commercial break and we'll beback after this
AD (11:13):
Abilities in Motion is one of Pennsylvania's premier
centers for independent livingexisting to educate, support,
and promote individuals withdisabilities.
Our programs are focused onproviding opportunities for
individuals with disabilities tolive independent,
self-determined lives.
Abilities in Motion, advocatesfor local state and national
laws that protect the rights ofpeople with disabilities.
(11:33):
We are proud to createinnovative and sustainable
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(11:56):
at www.abilitiesinmotion.org.
Shelly (12:03):
So I wanted to get into more of the staff, like our IT
guy, Matt and myself, that wepartnered you partnered with
around the state from otherlocal CIL's or center for
independent living.
How were, how were we essentialor vital to your project?
Jenny (12:22):
Yes, absolutely.
We, we wouldn't have thetoolkits that we have right now
without involvement from centersfor independent living.
So this was really mostlyhappening in the pilot phase.
Although we did work reallyclosely with, um, Jeanetta
Green, who's the ExecutiveDirector at PACIL of central PA.
She's been involved with theproject from the start and
(12:43):
really helped, helped give us,give us a little perspective
while we were developing thetoolkit, but actually bringing
folks in and having thatdialogue with staff at the
different sites as part of thepilot was to me the most
valuable experience.
So this, this involves kind ofrecruiting local center for
independent living staff or, andor consumers.
(13:05):
Sometimes we had boats.
Sometimes it was just one or theother to actually come to the
sites.
As I said before, kind of workon the, self-assessment have a
conversation with the staff,really building that
partnership.
I kind of framed this with thestaff and starting the
conversation is this is, this isgoing to be your first
conversation, hopefully of many.
This isn't just the one and donewere done.
(13:27):
Check we've completed thetoolkit.
This, this is something wherethis is a valuable resource.
And also, um, I think some ofthe feedback that we got from
folks in the CIL's is this ishelping to complete part of the
center for independent livingend date of involvement in the
community.
So most museums really want tobe seen as a community anchor.
And so we're really helping kindof provide, provided, provide
(13:50):
another site for folks to, toget involved with, um, via, via
the museums that they werevisiting
Shelly (13:57):
With you going around and visiting the sites with
these partners from CIl's.
Do you have any great takeawaystories of some simple fix that
the museum didn't realize wouldjust a simple change would make
things so much more accessiblefor their guests?
Jenny (14:16):
Oh yeah.
It was really interestingbecause we had a lot of things
that were unique to the sites.
Obviously each site being alittle bit different, but one
thing that came up again andagain and again, and I know Sh
elly, this came up in your visitas well was, was something
simple, like signage andpathways an d m aking sure th
at, that your pathways are notonly we ll-maintained, but that
(14:37):
you look out for these, thesetiny things, even a crack in the
sidewalk, or I think you weretalking about the slope on that
really rainy day an d t h at w ehad a Boone, talking about how
something like that might notseem li ke, like a barrier, but
actually can a pretty majorissue.
And also having that experience,I think having staff like you
and Matt there, where you've notonly got the lived experience,
(14:59):
but you've also got theprofessional experience.
So this is, this is somethingthat you're used to doing that,
you know, how to frame in a waythat might not, might not kind
of cause that defensivereaction, but you ar e s aying,
you know, here, this is, this issomething that we in volve,
we're willing to help youcreatively pr oblem-solve a nd
talk about some things th at,that have worked well for us in
the past.
(15:20):
And I think that really helpedthe staff, but okay.
Yeah, this is something we needto improve, but it's doable.
We can handle it.
And even something that was alittle bit bigger, I think
having, having the opportunityto have that conversation and
just say, Hey, you know, we're,we're not here to file a lawsuit
on you.
We're here to, to try and workcollaboratively to make it
better.
(15:40):
Ab solutely.
That was, I think a major kindof aha moment for the staff of,
oh, okay.
We can, we can be in thistogether.
It's not an us versus themsituation.
Shelly (15:50):
Yeah.
So I know one of the other sitesthat I didn't visit had a woman
that was a wheelchair user andthere was a bookshelf or
something in front of theaccessible lift to get her into
the train car.
Is that right?
So tell us about, tell us aboutthat story.
Jenny (16:09):
Yeah.
So that was, that was our veryfirst site visit and there was
so, so we were going into thisyear, we were ready to learn.
Um, but yeah, we had two, twofolks from, um, the, the local
still in Lancaster and they werecoming up at the railroad museum
was, was really excited forthis.
(16:29):
Their, their staff is super,super enthusiastic and they're
like, yeah, you know, we, we'vegot this mobile lift that we use
because their, their collectionis mostly roling stock.
So train cars, engines, thatsort of thing.
Um, so something that you, youdon't think of, especially if
you're looking to get to it fromthe ground as being accessible
(16:49):
to someone who uses awheelchair, but they were like,
and we, we went in, we werehaving some staff wheel this in
and they realized that one oftheir, um, glass exhibit cases
was actually in the path thatthe lift needed to go into to
get access to the train carsthat we were trying to get
through.
And so our site administratorand a couple of the staff
(17:13):
members just said, okay, youknow, we can this thing, isn't
on, isn't bolted to the floor.
We can just lift it up, move itdown a couple inches.
And that's this new permanenthome.
And now that train car is muchmore accessible, should a
visitor come and want to use thelift to, to get into it.
And once they did move thatcase, she was able to get in and
really enjoyed it.
It was able to have a full andequivalent experience, which is,
(17:35):
which is the goal here.
Shelly (17:37):
Yeah.
And that was the partnershipthat we as persons with
disabilities through the CIL,hoping to, to obtain with, with
each site location.
So you are an able-bodied personand we don't judge, we don't
judge you for that.
But I put you in, in awheelchair at Daniel Boone on a
(17:59):
rainy day.
What did you learn as anable-bodied person, um, going
through getting into thatbuilding, and then you decided
to challenge yourself to get onand off the toilet without a
grab bar, tell our listenersthat little experience.
And what, from your perspectiveyou learned about maybe some of
(18:21):
our daily challenges.
Jenny (18:23):
Yeah.
I mean, it was, it was a major,a major wake up call for sure.
Um, this was, this was goinginto a building, but, um, I
think it was the, the WaysideLodge at Boone that we were,
that we were going into, whichis kind of used as a, they said
they use it as like a Scoutcamping space.
So there's, there's beds,there's a bathroom.
Um, it's not a historicbuilding, but it's, it's got
(18:45):
some, some historicsignificance.
So the staff were really like,you know, we, we want to change
this.
We want to be able to make itaccessible for, should we have a
Scout group that's got somebodywho's a wheelchair user.
So Shelly's like, you know, Hey,I've got a, got a folding chair
in the back of my car, up inthis thing and let's go.
Um, and, and it was really justthinking about every single
(19:06):
thing from the, the slope of thepathway going.
And there was a pretty sizeablelip on the doorway that I nearly
did an endo on trying to get incause I thought I could just
power through and Nope.
Um, and so, and then getting inthe door, which was, which was
barely there and then trying touse the bathroom because they
were, they were trying to figureout, you know, will this work as
(19:27):
an accessible bathroom with somemodifications?
And there were, there were nograb bars.
There was barely enough turningradius if I remember correctly.
And I pretty much had to, inorder to transfer him, the chair
had to like touch the toiletseat, shimmy out over.
And it was, it was a situationwhere I was like, oh y eah, no,
this is not a good situation asit stands right now.
(19:50):
An d, and I think that was areally good ey e-opener f or the
staff to o, to realize just allthese little things that can
snowball and add up in t heexperience of folks.
Shelly (20:01):
Yeah.
You know, I, I put you in thatsituation, not because I don't
like you, I done like you' verymuch! But rather if I just tell
you, or, or if Matt had beenthere, Matt just tells you, this
is what he goes through to donand doff off the toilet and get
through a building.
It wouldn't have made as much ofan impact.
(20:24):
And I, I wanted, I wanted anable-bodied person to be in that
moment and feel the challengeand the frustration and the
thought process that it goesthrough something as simple as
going to the bathroom, you know,everybody is different.
And I think it was a hugeeye-opener and I'm very grateful
that you didn't give up and thatyou stopped.
(20:46):
And really like, Hey, if I, if Iwas a wheelchair user, you know,
how would I problem solve thiswhen we say we're problem
solvers?
Because it wasn't world wasn'tbuilt for us.
That's exactly what we mean.
That was just one littlechallenge that we threw at you
and you did a brilliant, you didit brilliantly, you toughed it
(21:07):
out.
I was very proud of you, but,
Jenny (21:14):
Um, I'm a former educator, so I love stuff like
that.
Um, but yeah, it was, and it wasalso, I think in all honesty,
that's been something that we'vereally been working through is a
challenge with this program.
Is that in this project, is thatyes, it's, it's well-intentioned
but the core of the people, yes,we do have a number of people
(21:34):
with disabilities who are onour, on our advisory council,
but the core of our workinggroup is non-disabled museum
people, most of whom are white,most of whom are straight.
Most of whom are cis-gender,there's a lot of that empathy
building that needs to happen.
And also realizing that there's,there's a line where our lived
experience only takes us so far,and we need to really hand
(21:56):
things over and say, you know,we need help on this, which as
museum staff and being used tokind of being seen as the
experts on things can be reallychallenging sometimes.
Shelly (22:10):
But I think I appreciate actually from our perspective
here a t, at aim that themuseums and statewide are at
least having this conversationand going beyond the
conversation of, if we just hadsome Scouts build some portable
ramps or removed the stone overand made it bigger and, u m, add
(22:33):
some lighting.
And so we talked about sensoryissues.
We talked about, u h, howpersons with blindness would or
deafness would, u m, experiencedifferent sites in different
ways.
So I think we really encompassedat least in the s ites that Matt
and I were at with you, a widevariety of disabilities and not
(22:53):
just, y ou k now, the top mainones that everybody normally
thinks about.
Jenny (22:57):
Yeah, definitely.
That, and that was somethingwhere, where we were really
trying to, I know I had had abig conversation with some of
our partners and folks who werehelping set up the visits and
saying, you know, we, we reallyneed a diverse array of folks
who want to sell yeah.
Recognizing that typical.
So consumers that, that thereare things that tend to kind of
(23:19):
tip towards for mobilitydisabilities.
But also, I mean, having, Ithink it was when you were at
the, at one of the site visitswhere you're talking about, you
know, there's another staffmember in your office who's
blind, um, or there's, there'sother, so particularly with the
sales staff, it was really greatto say, you know, here I I'm
here representing accessibility,but there's, I've got a friend
(23:42):
or I've got a work colleague orthere's somebody else at the
seller, there's somebody else atthe statewide level that can
help with, with this particularthing, or here's a resource that
you might not have heard ofbefore.
Like that was, that was reallyuseful for us because I think
that's, that's something thatwe're trying to go for with this
scope.
And that we're recognizing is,is a major challenge where we,
we want to be able to get asmany perspectives as possible,
(24:05):
but we're also in this timelimitation.
So how do we, how do we do that?
Um, and do that successfullyrather than saying, you know,
we're, we're just going to saywhat we think this particular
community needs and not actuallyask them.
Shelly (24:19):
I see the medical physicians do it.
You know, I think a lot of othercommunities just think that they
know better and they areprofessionals in their field.
And we do acknowledge that.
But what I teach on disabilityand awareness, I teach them, you
know, you are going to bringyour professional perspective
and experience, but let us bringexperience our lived experience
(24:42):
to the table as well, andcombine that together.
And that there is no animosityof, I'm going to tell you what
to do, or I'm going to Sue youkind of attitude of more of like
let's put our minds together andcreate something amazing
together.
And that's what I loved aboutbeing part of this project.
So very much
Jenny (25:03):
A hundred percent that's, that's, that's our goal too.
And I think that's somethingwhere we were really able to
recognize, you know, we, we bothwant the same thing here, right?
So let's, let's create a reallysolid partnership because we're,
we're looking at the same goal.
We both want, want these museumsand these sites to be more
accessible, maybe for differentreasons, but the goal is the
(25:25):
same.
And so how can we work togetherto, to achieve that?
And yeah, I've, I was a hundredpercent super grateful for that
as well, because that's, that'sthe way to do it.
Shelly (25:35):
I think we had a lot of fun along the way that we were
at together.
Um, Matt challenged you up aramp in your manual chair and he
used his electric chair and hecheated,
Jenny (25:47):
Oh my God, I'm forever grateful for Matt for chewing up
the, up the hill, like ConradWeiser homestead.
Oh my God, my a rms still neverrecovered.
My biceps are about an inchbigger.
It was going up, going up a hillto a, u m, a statue at one of
the historic sites.
And again, I was in that, inthat f olding manual chair and
(26:09):
oh man, I tried, but
Shelly (26:13):
No pain, no gain.
Yeah.
Jenny (26:17):
Massive, thanks to Matt for that.
But it was also such a greatexample of like, Hey, here's,
here's how we help each other.
And it might look a littleunconventional, but God, it
works.
Shelly (26:29):
That is the story of our everyday life I'm telling you.
So now that you've wrapped upthe physical site visits, you
and your team, uh, presented atthe MaaM conference last month,
what,, what is the MaaMconference and what feedback did
you receive from the personsthat tapped into a learn more
(26:50):
about that?
Jenny (26:53):
Yeah, so, um, ma'am, it's I'm MaaM, which is stands for
the Mid-Atlantic MuseumsAssociation.
So this is our regional museumprofessional organization here
in Mid-Atlantic states.
That's I believe Pennsylvania,New Jersey, um, Maryland and DC
I think is, is represented inthat region, represented in that
(27:15):
conference.
And the, the theme of theconference this year was
centering people at your museum.
And so we were like, alright,this is, this is perfect for us.
Um, and we, we really, it wasreally great to hear, um, your
from, from different museumstaff, obviously the, the
audience of this particularconference is aimed at museum
(27:36):
staff in, in this particularregion.
So hearing from, from differentmuseums who weren't involved in
the pilot, um, museums, thatthat might not be kind of, of
the, of the type that we got totest out at, um, or just
particularly people who wereearlier in, in their, in their
career.
So a lot of emergingprofessionals or college or grad
(27:57):
students are part of thisconference.
So it was really great to hearwhat's been, been talked about
in these, these museum studiesprograms, how that can, can help
us moving forward.
And also what, what, what wewere getting that echo on of,
yes, this is definitely animprovement that needs to be
made.
Um, but also just hearingwhat's, what's kinda new in
(28:18):
these programs and how theseyounger staff or future,
hopefully staff see us as theirrole and, and see us as how they
would possibly be, be using thistoolkit, even if they may not
have a particular museum to testit out right now.
Shelly (28:34):
So, but it's good that they're thinking about it and
that the younger, newer staffcoming in interns and college
students, if they can make abig, bigger impact as they move
through their career with freshideas.
So that might be fine for them.
Jenny (28:50):
Exactly.
Yeah.
It was one of the, one of theother sessions that was going on
was a bunch of, of students thatone of these museum programs
presenting their theses.
And I was like, oh man, this isnumber one, flashes me back to
doing the same thing, you know,but also is like, you know what?
This is, this is where thefuture is.
An an honestly was kind ofaffirming for me as I'm like,
this is, this is on track.
(29:11):
Like not all of them were DEAIfocused, but this, this push
towards greater, greater socialjustice, greater environmental
sustainability is somethingthat's top of mind for all of
these students right now aremost of these students right
now.
So hearing that is like, allright, we're with the trends,
(29:32):
right.
For the kids.
But also that we're, that we'redoing the work that on one hand
still needs to be done.
But on the other hand, there arepeople are still really excited
and energized to be doing thiswork, which is great.
Shelly (29:47):
Yeah.
No, thank you for doing thiswork because it is very, very
important, you know, not onlyhere in the state of
Pennsylvania, but nationwideand, you know, for all the
beautiful museums that are inEurope that may need some, need
to think about someaccessibility issues.
There's those museums andhistorical places are much older
than in Pennsylvania by a fewhundred years.
(30:10):
So yeah, now that you move intophase three and your project is
wrapping up, what's next for youand your team?
Jenny (30:18):
So we are deep into editing, uh, right now that's,
that's really where we'relooking at is learning from the
lessons.
How can we make this this betterand more user-friendly um, when
we were piloting it, it was a 30page word document, which we got
some pretty quick feedback over.
This is intense.
This is way too much.
(30:39):
How can we, how be in a formatthat your, your average kind of
stressed out of their mind,museum staff, her or your, your
staff of one, are your staffmade up entirely of volunteers?
How can we put this in a waythat's not dumbing it down, but
in a way that makes it seem alittle less intimidating, but
(31:00):
checking all these boxes in a 30page document, um, other piece
we're really working on issomething kind of in the middle
to help museums create, uh, anaccessibility transition plan.
So a way to take their, theirscore or take some of the things
that they've identified incompleting the self-assessment
and really put on paper, okay.
(31:22):
How are you going to concretelytake action on this?
When are you going to concretelytake action on it?
Who understaffed or have yourvolunteers is going to be
responsible for this?
And, and this is in one way,kind of a, uh, uh, a legal thing
for the ADA.
So in case there are somechallenges you can say, Hey,
here's, here's our plan.
(31:43):
Here's what we're doing.
Here's what we've already done.
Here's what we're looking to doin the future.
Um, but also just to, as we'vetalked about before this idea of
taking the action is the hardestpart.
So how to help with that actualtaking action piece, um, and not
just leave it up the ruminatingstage.
(32:04):
And then also we're, we'rereally looking at how can we, we
tie this into broader DEAI work.
I know there's, there's always alot of, a lot of talk within
disability communities of, Hey,don't forget that a N DEAI a
every time I see a job postingwhere it's like diversity equity
and inclusion coordinator, alittle piece of me dies because
(32:26):
I'm like, I hope you're not likeI, I get the commute to condense
and rename, but don't forgetwell, disabilities in this work,
because this is, this is notsomething that can be dropped
off at a, is there for a reason,but also we really want to make
sure, you know, think aboutwhere we can, can push things
forward and where we're notmarginalizing other, other
(32:48):
communities that have beenmarginalized or that are facing
barriers to access to museums.
And also a lot of this does havea lot of cross pollination for,
for people with disabilities aswell.
So for something like the costof a ticket as a barrier to
entry, that that can, can do alot of things that can lower
(33:09):
barriers for folks, not onlywith, with people with
disabilities, but also folks whomight be on other sorts of
social supports and need that toactually get, to get through the
door of a museum where we'redoing a lot of thinking of,
okay, what does it take to getthrough the door?
And then what does it take tocreate an equitable and
inclusive museum experience?
Shelly (33:33):
One thing I can say is having a lower cost for their
aid that might be with them ortheir partners, spouse, and
spinners, to help them through,to transfer in the bathrooms
there, to help them be able toreach the counter, to get lunch
or carry their, their item thatthey purchased.
(33:54):
All of those things are so veryimportant as you guys move
through this phase three of thisproject.
So if any of our listeners outthere nationwide, worldwide,
want to tap into this wonderfulproject and find out more, where
can our listeners find out moreabout this accessibility
excellence project?
Jenny (34:14):
Yeah, so we have, as I mentioned, that the toolkit is
scheduled to be released in thesummer of 2022, most likely, but
we do have on the PA museum'swebsite, a page available where
you can sign up to receive thetoolkit as soon as it is
released.
So that website you are out isPA museums.org/accessibility,
(34:38):
and then a hyphen excellence.
And I really hope to see, seemore people signing up for this
as well, especially folks who,who might be outside of the
museum profession, but know afriend or want to share this
toolkit with, with their localmuseum.
That would be amazing.
We would love to see that.
Shelly (34:59):
Yes.
Thank you so very much, we willput that website address in the
show description.
So look for it there on ourwebsite.
And thank you Jenny so much foryour time and your efforts with
all of this on the statewidehuge project.
We here at our CIL reallyappreciate all the efforts and
conversation that we've had forthe last year regarding this.
Jenny (35:21):
You're welcome.
I'm so glad to be here.
Thanks for inviting me, Shelly.
This is really great too, tohave another format to chat
about the project and also to,to continue our conversation as
well.
Shelly (35:32):
Exactly.
Very good.
And to our listeners worldwide,thank you for joining us and
forget to hit that like andsubscribe button, but you never
miss the opportunity to listento DisAbility Talks.
Music (36:01):
[inaudible]
Outro (36:05):
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of DisAbilityTalks
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