November 7, 2025 • 35 mins
SHOW #91: Welcome to the disSOLViNG fear podcast!
Season 3, Episode 22 - The mission HERE is a world where fear doesn't run the show, YOU DO!
In this episode, author and business coach Kate Lowry and I talk about easy ways to handle fear-based leaders (and manipulative, controlling people) in any situation you might find yourself in.
Fear-based leaders (and narcissists) are all over the place, but do not let them break you down! Kate tells us how to spot them and navigate their antics in our personal and professional lives.
We chat about:
- How to identify fear-based leaders
- Understanding fear-based leaders
- Strategies for handling destructive people
- When adults abuse the parent-child power dynamic
- Why fear-based leaders are actually very predictable
- Emotionally immature people
- Narcissists
- People pleasing as a trauma response
You can find Kate Lowry's amazing work, and her new book at https://www.katelowry.com/
Take the quiz and see if you are dealing with a fear-based leader in your personal or professional life!
https://www.katelowry.com/fear-based-leader-quiz
If you liked this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Chuck Wisner. We talk about communicating, negotiating, and having open, authentic conversations at work and at home. Click here to listen!
Or check out this episode about setting boundaries, sticking to your standards, and cutting the cord to any people, places, and things that don't work for you anymore. Tune in here!
If YOU feel like you might be in a fear-based romantic relationship, or you feel stuck in an unhealthy power dynamic with someone close to you, please check out the Power & Control Wheel websites below. The first site gives you a good picture of the wheel as a helpful diagram, and the second website shares a few short videos about dysfunctional relationships. We all deserve relationships based on equality, love, and mutual support! Share this episode with anyone who might be in a dysfunctional or controlling relationship dynamic!
Helpful Videos about Power & Control Dynamics in Relationships
Go to Apple Podcasts to listen to prior episodes of the podcast, and to leave a rating and review! Visit disSOLVing fear on Apple Podcasts right HERE.
Follow this podcast, you'll love the results. Loving life is what we're ALL about, here at the podcast and at missalissa.com.
As always, thank you for being HERE at disSOLViNG fear!
Click below for the FREE monthly newsletter.
https://missalissa.myflodesk.com/newsletter
Click here to Explore 1:1 Coaching
Let's Connect on Instagram @miss.alissa.shirk
Fear doesn't run the show, YOU do!
Welcome to the family!
Much Love, Alissa Shirk
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Dissolving Fear Podcast, where fear doesn't run
the show, you do Fear doesn't run this show.
I'm your host, Miss Alyssa Shirk, and I've been hosting
this podcast for about 3 years now.
So if you're new here, I'd like to personally welcome you to the
podcast where I share proven ways to build confidence,
(00:20):
believe in yourself and reduce anxiety.
I'm sharing today an inspiring guest interview.
And the mission here is a world where fear doesn't control us.
We can let go to grow. So if you want to feel more free
to pursue your dreams, TuneIn loving life is what we're all
about here at the podcast and atmissalyssa.com.
(00:42):
Enjoy the show. Kate Lowry, welcome to the
podcast. Thank you so much for having me.
You know what? It's Lowry, isn't it?
No, it's. Lowry, you got it right.
Oh, good. Thank you for joining us all the
way from California today where you're a business coach, venture
capitalist and an expert in fearbased leadership.
(01:05):
So for all of you guys tuning into this episode, here's what
I've learned when it comes to fear based leaders.
And Kate is the expert. But I've learned that you can
thrive and you can even feel unbreakable when you're dealing
with a manipulative fear based person who might come into your
life and try to control you. And Kate is here to tell us how
(01:27):
to actually thrive in these situations because from what
I've experienced personally, a lot of people have experienced
fear based leaders. They can come out of nowhere,
into our workplace, into our lives, and sometimes they can
rattle us and stress us out, butthey're actually very
predictable. So today we're diving into how
(01:48):
to spot a fear based leader and what we can do for ourselves
once we're in the presence of a fear based leader.
So Kate, it's funny, I was talking about we're going to
talk about how to handle a fear based leader and it's like a
scavenger hunt. I don't know what you're going
to say, but I feel like we're going to find all these
different ways to handle the sphere based leader and spot
(02:09):
them. So tell us first a little bit
about yourself. Yeah, definitely.
So I'm someone that. Really cares.
About helping people deal with difficult realities.
While. Retaining autonomy and agency.
I do that. In a lot of different ways with
my coaching clients, I help. Them be the types of leaders
(02:29):
that. They want to be while growing
mission driven companies in Silicon Valley.
As an author, I teach. People tactical.
Skills to help them. Protect what they care about.
And then in my comedy. I help people feel.
Less alone by tapping into really common human themes.
And so every day is a bit of an adventure.
(02:50):
There's a lot of different moving pieces in my life, but
it's never boring. Yeah, that's what I found
fascinating about you. You're a comedian.
And the second thing I found fascinating about you is your
expertise and fear based leadership goes way back to your
childhood. You grew up in a fear based
family, So what was your family dynamic like?
(03:14):
Yes, definitely. So both of my parents.
Are fear based leaders? You could think of fear based.
Leadership as showing up anywhere where there's a power
dynamic that someone. Chooses to abuse.
And so my parents were hierarchical top down.
Cruel. You know, difficult.
You know my. Way or the highway.
(03:36):
Iron Fist without the velvet glove type of people.
And as a child, that meant that I spent a lot of time being
afraid. Am I doing this?
Right. Will they ever like me?
Will it ever be? Good enough and so on.
But the older I got. The more I realized that I had
an opportunity to learn and I started running experiments.
(04:00):
Experiments. About how to preserve.
My agency and protect what mattered most to me at the time.
Maybe it was my extracurricularsor being allowed to see my
friends. Or, you know, getting.
Like few types of. Care I needed as a child.
And by the time I entered the business.
World I had. A much stronger methodology in
talking in terms of what works on.
(04:22):
Fear based people. Than I think most adults have.
By the time. They're towards the end of their
careers. Wow, it's so interesting.
I feel like, you know that movieMatilda with the little genius
girl and her parents are like Cray Cray and she's just smart
enough to navigate their BS and she doesn't feel shame like
(04:45):
she's in the wrong and she's doing wrong.
And I think that's amazing that I mean, cuz you can really turn
on yourself and become your own worst critic if you do have
people who are always like unhappy with what you're doing
and shaming you. Yes, definitely.
Inner critics are something I work on with my coaching clients
(05:06):
all the time and I've definitelybeen there.
But. As a kid, I.
Very much related to, you know, the stories a little Princess
Matilda secret garden. All those stories where you
have. These kids that are in, you
know, really grown up situationsand you know, I think that if
you can take situations that were really hard and turn them
into something meaningful that helps others, it makes it not
(05:30):
quite so bad. So how do we spot a fear based
leader? Sometimes we meet somebody and
we're not sure if they're a control freak or if they're just
really critical or if they're a narcissist or a fear based
leader, but we know something feels wrong.
So I know you actually have a quiz on your website that helps
(05:52):
people figure out if they're dealing with a fear based
leader, but just tell us how canwe identify these people and
spot them? Definitely the first.
Thing that you'll notice is a feeling that you get around them
if. You feel like you have.
To tiptoe and walk around egg shells and like you're
constantly guessing but you justdon't know if you're going to be
(06:14):
able to get. It right?
Kind of a always waiting for the.
Other shoe to drop? Feeling.
You're probably. Around someone who?
Uses fear to at. Least some degree and then
secondly when you look. At leaders like this.
They have very distinctive formsof emotionally driven logic, you
(06:35):
might notice. That this type of.
Leader does not believe in. Equality.
They think that they are either.Being stepped on or doing the
stepping. You may notice that when they
first. Meet people.
They're immediately. Assessing and testing and
pushing boundaries how much can I push this person around, you
know, will they notice what I'm doing?
Will they call me out on it and.They're always assessing.
(06:58):
The people around them to say, is this person an audience?
You know they. Classify their.
Audiences as kind of useful. Sheep or is this?
Person a useful tool, someone that I can use and then.
Maybe discard later. And so.
If you see people. Who seem to be thinking in
those. Ways, especially.
People who think of everything is winning and losing, you know,
(07:22):
everything is a game. They're always trying to be the
winner, always trying to have the most with these kind of.
Caricature ish values that. Seem more like outlines of a
person. You're probably around a fear.
Based leader. Yeah, that is so interesting.
What are some more signs? So fear based leaders see
(07:45):
themselves as better than other people, sometimes better than
their coworkers. It sounds like they're always
testing to see like how much will they take?
How much you know, BS or bossingaround will they take they could
be very demanding. Let's see, I wrote down some
notes from your website. They can expect like an
(08:05):
immediate response. They you know, you have to be
always available on your phone and you said fear based leaders
tend to gossip or even like withhold information because
then they're important and they have more information power and
control. So once we realize we're at
interacting with a fear based leader, how do we handle them?
(08:26):
What are some best practices that anyone listening can today
could like implement in their own lives?
And before we even get to that, do you have like an example of a
client who was like, I think I'mdealing with a fear based leader
or, you know, just an example oflike a workplace dynamic where
somebody could be fear based leader?
(08:48):
Yes, definitely. So I was working.
With a client recently whose company just got.
Out by bought out. By APE Fund and I've worked in.
Private equity. Private equity.
Firms are. Highly.
Extractive and the new CEO was coming in to say I'm going to
suck this company drive all its value and then you know push it
(09:09):
out the. Door.
And for someone who values the organization, that's a really
alarming thing to hear and so. What I worked with her is to.
Outline the things that she cares about most and then
reframe those things in terms ofthat new CEO's incentives and
because. She was able to.
Present the things that matter. That actually kept value.
(09:32):
In the company in ways that aligned with his goals.
He ended up leaving her initiatives alone.
Wow why would someone want to suck the company dry just so
they can like sell it sheep to afriend or something?
I don't even understand SO the the way.
Private equity works you. Can think of it as optimizing
and maximizing. So a private equity firm.
(09:55):
Might buy a company and have it undergo cost cutting exercises.
If they cut costs. But they're able to maintain
revenue, it boosts the profit margin, and then they might look
at each individual section of the company.
Assess its value. And either if it's more if the
pieces are more valuable on their own.
They'll sell the pieces. If they're more.
(10:17):
Valuable together. They'll then resell the company
as it is. The thing is.
Private equity ownership doesn'tfeel good.
To most. People who are stuck in private.
Equity owned firms and so when you.
Have private equity? Barons who are coming to.
Call. It's all about.
Knowing how to speak their language of winning and losing
(10:39):
if you can help them understand how.
What you care about? Is is winning then?
You're able to have. More autonomy and how they deal
with things. OK.
And then in general for people listening, what are some basic
best practices that we can implement as far as handling
fear based leaders? Yeah, definitely.
(11:03):
So the. First thing that you.
Have to understand is that this type of leader weaponizes
information that means that you should never.
Tell the leader what you actually really care about.
Because if you're really excited.
About. Initiative or if you.
Really want to go on vacation with your kids for spring break?
You can bet that that's the first initiative.
They'll kill or the. You know they'll cancel your.
(11:25):
PTOA day before you're. Supposed to leave on vacation.
Because they really like. Getting a reaction and that
leads to kind of the next thing,which is.
These types of leaders live. For knowing that they're causing
big emotional reactions and others it makes them feel.
Powerful to see that they're. Having a profound effect, so you
(11:48):
have to. Practice having a poker face.
Don't let them see. That they're affecting you.
And if they can't affect you? They will get.
Bored and go try to kick something else Poker face and
OK, what was the other thing yousaid?
Hold on. Don't share what you care about.
(12:09):
Yeah, don't communicate, don't over share.
Yes, this is the latest podcast I've ever done, 530 Mountain
time at night, so I apologize. Yes, don't over share.
Don't over share and have a poker face.
Definitely some of these signs of a fear based leader sound
like symptoms of narcissism. Like things like telling people,
(12:33):
you know, you'd be nothing without me or scaring people
into doing what they want because they just think it's
such black and white terms. Like what I want is good and you
know, it's my way or the highway.
And I feel like usually the behavior is shocking at 1st and
it's done in private, you know, like not in front of everybody
(12:54):
and they keep a good image. So how are these people actually
predictable? They are really predictable
because at their core they're very.
Emotionally immature and emotionally immature people
don't have access to a nuanced. Set of levers or.
Actions. They tend to think in black and
(13:17):
white ways, and they tend to actin.
Ways that are highly. Aligned with their self-interest
and. Because these types of leaders
project a very postured I'm a big bully.
Be scared of me. Type of image.
A lot of. People struggle to map.
(13:37):
Their behavior to see. That they're almost always
following a pattern of if this, then that.
But they do. Follow a pattern and if you can.
Figure out how they. Think you can predict them and?
People who are predictable tactics work very reliably.
On them. And that's why the toolkit in my
(13:58):
book can be so. Effective.
Ah, So what are some misconceptions?
Misconceptions about fear based leaders and what are they really
like? So what's the assumption and
misconception? First of all, we think they're
strong, but they're really not. Go, go ahead.
They will lie to you and they'lltell you.
(14:20):
You know you're nothing without me.
Resistance is futile. Kind of dizzy villain type of
stuff, but you shouldn't believethem.
Because they'll tell you, hey, you're powerless.
You're actually really powerful and.
These leaders that are trying. So hard to say.
I'm big, I'm strong. Are.
(14:42):
Really, deeply, intensely insecure and and that insecurity
informs everything they do. They're called fear based.
Not because they motivate with fear.
Which they do because they themselves are.
Motivated by fear? Wow, I never thought about that.
(15:04):
Can you say that one more time? Yeah.
So these types of leaders, are they themselves?
Motivated. By fear.
When they're lying awake in bed at night, they're going Am I
enough? Will they ever like me?
If they don't like me. Will they at least?
Fear me and will that not might not be what their conscious
voice is saying every morning they get.
(15:27):
Kicked out of bed because they. Have their own inner critics
that are going get out of bed. You're not good enough.
Work harder and because fear is what?
They know. It's what they use.
To try to motivate others. Yeah.
It's like fear is running their show.
And so they're using it in theirlives to get the things they
want almost because they don't know a better way.
(15:50):
Or like it's just too foreign. Like they just can't make all of
those changes and change themselves.
That's right, they have a lot oftrouble.
With self-awareness. And even if they want to change,
they don't always know. What the right path is these
types of leaders? Missed a lot.
Of what I call. Kindergarten lessons.
(16:12):
They they didn't learn how to make friends.
They didn't. Learn how to apologize.
They didn't learn. How to trust others?
Or how to inspire. Trust.
And so telling them to. Be a strength space leader is
it's like. Asking someone to speak a
foreign language. It's so interesting because I
feel like I'm driven by fun. Like I just want to have fun in
(16:34):
life. I feel bad for these fear based
leaders. I mean, I'm in Colorado.
I tend to like, I'm in love withlike our governor.
He's adorable. I think he's really fun.
He has fun Instagram posts. Anyway, I could go on and on,
You know, and I look up to people who seem like they're
very organized and, you know, just very caring.
(16:56):
Anyways, what's a good way to determine someone's level of
emotional maturity When we are dating somebody new?
When we're dating somebody new? What?
Oh my gosh, that is such an important life skill.
And also I can. Tell you so much.
That you value fund I mean. Your voice is so bubbly it's
perfect for. Podcasting.
(17:17):
So emotional. Maturity levels are so.
Important. My book.
Has a chart that helps you clockwhat levels are.
Based on certain characteristics, but for example
if you see someone, maybe if your body.
Age is 50, but they. Spin out and throw tantrums when
they don't. Get their way.
(17:38):
They get distracted easily if they're hungry.
If they're tired, they are less.Patient, they're more.
Cranky that. Is an emotional 2 year old and
that's not someone that you wantto be in a relationship with.
If you're stuck around them at work or in life means you better
pack snacks. You better schedule breaks.
(18:00):
You better have lots of topics available to distract.
Them when they start throwing their adult tantrums then if you
find someone. Who, let's say, is very.
Interested in playing pretend? Social roles.
They're interested. In being a girlfriend, to be a
girlfriend, you know they want to be the most.
(18:23):
Popular. The prettiest They They're very.
Obsessed with group interactions.
That person is. Probably.
An emotional teenager and emotional.
Teenagers. Need.
A lot of space. They're often going through
periods of transition in their life, even if their body age is
much older, they often. Need people to, really.
(18:45):
Support them even if they're notthat great to be around.
But as an adult, you don't have to stay around that.
It's every adult's responsibility.
To make sure that. They learn and grow to be an
emotional adult. Yeah, I'm a single mom and I'm a
teacher, so I feel like I'm supporting people all day, like
my 10 and my 13 year old. And then I teach high school.
(19:08):
So I do have like high school students that I support.
And I know that as a mom, I'm supposed to lead through
inspiration, motivation, empowerment, lead by example
rather than just trying to control or negotiate or threaten
to take away the phone. But I'll be honest, sometimes I
(19:28):
feel like a threat is the only way I can make them do
something. It's like the only thing that
works. And I feel bad after I like
threatened to take away the phone or whatever it is.
But I think the difference between a good parent like
myself and someone who's like manipulative is that
manipulative people don't value the connection.
(19:50):
Is it like most important for them to have their way?
Or what's your opinion on like somebody like me who is like
threats tend to work well sometimes?
So just. Because you make threats doesn't
mean you're fear based. There's a difference between
threatening someone and making sure that someone's actions or
(20:15):
lack of actions feel their natural consequences.
Yeah, natural. It's.
No adult. Yeah, yeah.
No adult. Should ever.
Be insulating another adult fromthe consequences of their own
actions we are all responsible for ourselves and for managing
the consequences of our own choices and with.
(20:39):
A few peace leaders they, they are actually quite different
because with you, you probably. Have an amazing connection with
your kids and if you don't get something right, you repair and
you reconnect and. With fear based leaders.
They don't actually know how to connect to begin with in in
(21:00):
their world there is only power and there is only control.
And if they want. The proxy for.
Connection which is attention. They feel like.
They need people below them. Connection implies equality.
You're reaching across a bridge and finding each other.
Fear based leaders are. Way up here.
(21:20):
They want to be way up here and they want everyone else down
here. And so you'll see these
situations where fear based leaders, if someone comes up and
is equal around them, they either take them out.
Or they try to. Push them down by nagging them
or some of these. Other things.
And so it's it's quite a different space to play.
(21:41):
Yeah. You know, have you heard of the
power and control wheel for everybody listening?
You can Google that, the power and control wheel.
And it's like eye opening. And I feel like you probably
have a lot of awesome diagrams and tools in your book.
So I encourage everybody to go out and grab your book.
I want you to tell me the name of the book in like one second,
(22:01):
but I just wanted to mention that power and control wheel
because I remember I was dealingwith somebody who was a
controlling person, perhaps fearbased.
And at the time the school social worker was like, you
should look up the power and control wheel.
And as soon as I did, I was like, you know, because they use
so many different things to gainpower over you, you know,
(22:23):
financial control, emotional control, all of these things.
It sounds completely exhausting.But anyway, tell me the name of
your book again, Tell everyone in here my book is called
Unbreakable, How to Thrive. Under fear based leaders.
I love it and I think an extremeexample of like a negative
family dynamic is like where dadtells you to stop crying or
(22:47):
he'll give you something to cry about.
Like that's just complete control and 0 connection.
And you know there's violence inthe home.
This is some things that you cansee in the power and control
wheel where family members use threat or fear or abuse.
And you know, there's a famous Hollywood stuntwoman, Kimberly
Shannon Murphy, and she has a story about her grandfather
(23:11):
abusing her. And so for everyone listening,
if you grew up in a fear based family dynamic or if you feel
stuck in a fear based relationship or workplace as an
adult, it might take a lot of time and practice to Start
learning how to handle fear based manipulators with
confidence. Because it's, I think we can
(23:32):
fall into the habit of people pleasing, especially if like as
a child you were kind of groomedto be a people pleaser.
Do you have any comments about that?
Yes, so people. Pleasing in trauma psychology.
Is what we call. The fond response?
So when you think. About flight, fight, freeze.
(23:53):
Fond if you fight a fear based parent, they may harm you.
If you if you're a child. You cannot actually flee.
If if you. Freeze.
Their behavior often escalates and so many people instead learn
that. It's best to please or
anticipate. The needs of an abuser.
As a form of. Preventative de escalation and
(24:17):
so. For folks that struggle with.
That often what I find. Is that they deprioritize.
Their own needs in in order to meet.
Others. And and so remember that you
cannot help others if you do not.
First help yourself. So put your.
(24:39):
Oxygen mask on 1st. And remember.
You won't get any. Gold Star for.
Pleasing someone else who who does not know how to please
himself. Yeah.
And some fear based leaders are never pleased like you were
talking about. They're always moving the goal
post. You know, I'm just picturing
like, maybe you're in a relationship and your partner's
(25:01):
like, well, you have to pay, youknow, like the whole gas bill.
Oh, now you have to pay the electricity bill.
And now you have to do this and not, you know, like now you
can't go out with your friends. Like all of these things.
Like people can really like set rules for relationships that are
dysfunctional and not serving us.
And so I do think boundaries areimportant.
(25:23):
Like as a, as a people pleaser, I usually just set boundaries.
So I'm like, I'm not even dealing with that because I know
like that's a temptation to get into like a dysfunctional
dynamic. So that's one way.
As an adult, I handle things. I just cut people off when they
seem a little sketchy. Why do you go ahead?
(25:44):
That's really smart if if. You can leave a situation with a
fear based leader. You should.
Yeah, even at work sometimes. Start looking for other more fun
jobs. Like life is short, you don't
want to deal with stress. Kate, why do you think fear
based leadership is re emerging as a thing in or in our society?
(26:05):
Why is it even celebrated to some degree?
I feel like it is becoming a thing.
It is everywhere. You know, even just look at our
TV shows, Game of Thrones, Houseof Cards, Billions Succession.
They are all fear based leaders.And what I have noticed is that
(26:26):
I had about 30 managers in my career now and when I.
Started out about 3. And 10 leaders that I ran into,
is my managers as clients as different?
Executives I work with were likethis.
And in the last five years, it'sbeen more like 7 and 10.
And that is not a good sign. You know, five years ago, CE OS
(26:49):
had to at least pretend to care about their employees.
Parents had to pretend to care. About their kids.
And now we're seeing people saying no.
This is This is. My Kingdom people can get in
line or get out. I I want people to say how high
when I say jump. Right.
(27:11):
And I think that. That's because we're.
Seeing more role models. In society.
Acting like that in business. You have people like.
Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg andthese really polarizing figures
who people look at and they go. Well, they're rich.
They're powerful and they're allowed to act this way, so I'm
(27:32):
going to act. That way too.
Yeah, so depending on what role models you choose, you can just
think that you have to be fear based.
Also, Kate, I'll tell everyone where they can find you online.
But before we wrap up, like whatis one last bit of advice for
anyone listening who still needssome tips on dealing with a
(27:54):
bully or a fear based leader? Yeah, so if you need help
dealing with a bully or a fear based leader, I would say that.
You need to learn how to pity them.
You need to learn. How to go wow.
(28:15):
This is an emotionally stunted human being.
They will never know the meaningof true connection.
They don't know. The joy of equality.
And I'm going to look down on them.
Because. They will never know those
things. And as long as, you know, I am
able to experience joy and I'm able to experience connection, I
(28:38):
will always have something that they will not.
And so the bully might try to put me down, but I know where
things really stand. Yeah.
I think it's really important to, like, find your tribe.
And after talking to you, I'm glad I've never worked in the
corporate world. I've worked in education my
whole life. And, like, it really is a
(28:58):
beautiful community. And like, teachers care and,
like, we get a kick out of the students.
We, you know, we get a kick out of them.
Like we think they're hilarious and and so.
Wow. Yeah, I'm sure the corporate
world can be a little bit cutthroat sometimes.
Is there anything else that you want to talk about on the
podcast today? Because I I kind of ran out of
(29:19):
questions quickly. I don't know what happened, but
what do you think? Yeah, so the other.
Thing I think is just so important for people to
understand. Is that you?
Can't pour it from an empty cup.And so to your point about
having fun. People that should make a list
of what brings. Them joy, what brings them,
(29:41):
energy what makes them. Feel recharged because spending.
Time in systems with unfair leaders like this is very
draining, and that means that you need to proactively and
intentionally schedule time for you to really.
Recharge. And.
(30:03):
I would tell people. That they should not.
Base their whole. Identity around the role.
That a fear based leader. Is trying to put them in, you
know, if this is your husband and and you're a wife and
they're trying to tell. You, you're a terrible.
Wife. Nothing.
You ever? Do is right?
I want you to. Remember everything you are.
Beyond just a wife. Maybe you are.
(30:24):
Also a nurse or a mother. Or a gardener.
Or a volunteer. Make sure that you.
Are. Defining the sources of your
identity as drawing from many different things that make you
you so that if someone attacks one aspect of your identity, you
don't collapse. Yeah, I think that's so
(30:47):
important. Like, I was married for 10 years
and then I got a divorce. And I think what helped me was
like, even if I felt a little bit disempowered in my identity
as a single mom, like my kids were one and four, I thought
back onto times where I felt like a boss babe.
I thought back to college where I was like raking in
(31:07):
scholarships and studying abroad.
So for listeners, you know, evenif you think back to when you
learned to drive or when you bought your first car, something
that you did, you know, at some point in your life, you gained
freedom through like your hard work, your creative problem
solving and your actions. And so yes, think back to a time
(31:29):
when you felt powerful and try to tap into that sensation.
You can even, like, meditate about, like, powerful, happy,
strong memories because, yeah, if it's one thing that I really
encourage people to do is if youare in a bad relationship, it is
better to get out even if you think it's going to break you.
(31:49):
Oh, my gosh. I mean, the title of your book
is Unbreakable. You know, like even those things
that we think will break us, we can survive it.
Yeah, you are. So much stronger than you know
and. People difficult people like
this will try to take. Pieces of you with them and.
(32:10):
Keep keep yourself whole well. You know, let them scratch at
you and take take nothing away because no one can make you feel
if no one can make you inferior without your consent.
And it can be very tempting whenpeople say, get down there, be
on the. Floor prostate yourself to to
say that because it's scary whenpeople.
(32:31):
Are loud and noisy and domineering.
But there are other ways. I mean, I would imagine like at
the workplace to like try to getthings in writing.
If they tell you like do something really weird, ask them
to e-mail you that request, you know, wouldn't you say that's a
good thing to do? I am a big fan of confirmation
(32:51):
emails. I just want to follow up and
confirm what I heard in that meeting, you know, because of
the takeaways that I noticed. And here are the next steps.
It's like highly professional. But if they don't deny it in a
response, then on paper you know.
It it helps provide a trail, butthat is what.
Happened so interesting. Would you say like there's a big
(33:16):
difference between a narcissist and a fear based leader?
Yeah. So the psychological.
Term for a. Fear based leader is actually
dark triad psychology. And and that.
Are is folks that have. A mix of narcissism, sociopathy
and Machiavellianism. And so you could.
(33:38):
Think of a fear based leader. As narcissism plus OK.
They're people who do. Feed on attention.
But they also have a particular.Desire to harm, and they tend to
have. Big.
Schemes. Whether?
That's being the mayor of a cityor running a faith organization
(33:58):
or, you know, building a big tech.
Company, there are people. Who are thinking about how to
turn a system to their advantageand that's why you find them in
these. Big leadership roles.
Like Roman warrior succession orCersei Lannister and Game of
Thrones. Well, thank you, Kate, for being
here today at Dissolving Fear. Tell everyone where they can
(34:20):
find you and where they can findyour new book, Unbreakable.
Oh, thank you so much. So you can.
Find me on Instagram at Kate Unbreakable Lowry.
You can find me on Sub Stack. At Kate Lowry dot.
Substack.com on my. Website Kate Lowry dot.
Com and my book is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and
wherever else. Books are sold.
(34:41):
Awesome. Any last words of wisdom that
you would like to leave us with here today on the podcast?
Yeah. Just remember you're less alone
than you feel, and it may feel. Like the world is.
Changing and that's. OK, you just.
Need to learn new new new skills?
To meet it where it's at. Yes, and we can all, we're not
alone, like you said, we can allhelp each other build skills,
(35:05):
build confidence, and build likea more fun and free future for
everybody. That's what I'm all about here
at the podcast, like personal freedom and not being afraid to
expand and evolve and grow and not being afraid of your own
power. Because I think a lot of times
we're not afraid of failure, we're just afraid of our own
(35:25):
power. That completes our episode for
today. If this podcast content felt
true for you, then follow the podcast today or leave a rating
and review on Apple Podcasts. Feel free to explore all 90 plus
episodes of the Dissolving Fear Podcast on Spotify and
everywhere you get your podcasts.
(35:46):
And keep exploring your favoriteways to dissolve fear and live
your best life every single day.
Welcome to the Dissolving Fear Podcast, where fear doesn't run
the show, you do Fear doesn't run this show.
I'm your host, Miss Alyssa Shirk, and I've been hosting
this podcast for about 3 years now.
So if you're new here, I'd like to personally welcome you to the
podcast where I share proven ways to build confidence,
(00:20):
believe in yourself and reduce anxiety.
I'm sharing today an inspiring guest interview.
And the mission here is a world where fear doesn't control us.
We can let go to grow. So if you want to feel more free
to pursue your dreams, TuneIn loving life is what we're all
about here at the podcast and atmissalyssa.com.
(00:42):
Enjoy the show. Kate Lowry, welcome to the
podcast. Thank you so much for having me.
You know what? It's Lowry, isn't it?
No, it's. Lowry, you got it right.
Oh, good. Thank you for joining us all the
way from California today where you're a business coach, venture
capitalist and an expert in fearbased leadership.
(01:05):
So for all of you guys tuning into this episode, here's what
I've learned when it comes to fear based leaders.
And Kate is the expert. But I've learned that you can
thrive and you can even feel unbreakable when you're dealing
with a manipulative fear based person who might come into your
life and try to control you. And Kate is here to tell us how
(01:27):
to actually thrive in these situations because from what
I've experienced personally, a lot of people have experienced
fear based leaders. They can come out of nowhere,
into our workplace, into our lives, and sometimes they can
rattle us and stress us out, butthey're actually very
predictable. So today we're diving into how
(01:48):
to spot a fear based leader and what we can do for ourselves
once we're in the presence of a fear based leader.
So Kate, it's funny, I was talking about we're going to
talk about how to handle a fear based leader and it's like a
scavenger hunt. I don't know what you're going
to say, but I feel like we're going to find all these
different ways to handle the sphere based leader and spot
(02:09):
them. So tell us first a little bit
about yourself. Yeah, definitely.
So I'm someone that. Really cares.
About helping people deal with difficult realities.
While. Retaining autonomy and agency.
I do that. In a lot of different ways with
my coaching clients, I help. Them be the types of leaders
(02:29):
that. They want to be while growing
mission driven companies in Silicon Valley.
As an author, I teach. People tactical.
Skills to help them. Protect what they care about.
And then in my comedy. I help people feel.
Less alone by tapping into really common human themes.
And so every day is a bit of an adventure.
(02:50):
There's a lot of different moving pieces in my life, but
it's never boring. Yeah, that's what I found
fascinating about you. You're a comedian.
And the second thing I found fascinating about you is your
expertise and fear based leadership goes way back to your
childhood. You grew up in a fear based
family, So what was your family dynamic like?
(03:14):
Yes, definitely. So both of my parents.
Are fear based leaders? You could think of fear based.
Leadership as showing up anywhere where there's a power
dynamic that someone. Chooses to abuse.
And so my parents were hierarchical top down.
Cruel. You know, difficult.
You know my. Way or the highway.
(03:36):
Iron Fist without the velvet glove type of people.
And as a child, that meant that I spent a lot of time being
afraid. Am I doing this?
Right. Will they ever like me?
Will it ever be? Good enough and so on.
But the older I got. The more I realized that I had
an opportunity to learn and I started running experiments.
(04:00):
Experiments. About how to preserve.
My agency and protect what mattered most to me at the time.
Maybe it was my extracurricularsor being allowed to see my
friends. Or, you know, getting.
Like few types of. Care I needed as a child.
And by the time I entered the business.
World I had. A much stronger methodology in
talking in terms of what works on.
(04:22):
Fear based people. Than I think most adults have.
By the time. They're towards the end of their
careers. Wow, it's so interesting.
I feel like, you know that movieMatilda with the little genius
girl and her parents are like Cray Cray and she's just smart
enough to navigate their BS and she doesn't feel shame like
(04:45):
she's in the wrong and she's doing wrong.
And I think that's amazing that I mean, cuz you can really turn
on yourself and become your own worst critic if you do have
people who are always like unhappy with what you're doing
and shaming you. Yes, definitely.
Inner critics are something I work on with my coaching clients
(05:06):
all the time and I've definitelybeen there.
But. As a kid, I.
Very much related to, you know, the stories a little Princess
Matilda secret garden. All those stories where you
have. These kids that are in, you
know, really grown up situationsand you know, I think that if
you can take situations that were really hard and turn them
into something meaningful that helps others, it makes it not
(05:30):
quite so bad. So how do we spot a fear based
leader? Sometimes we meet somebody and
we're not sure if they're a control freak or if they're just
really critical or if they're a narcissist or a fear based
leader, but we know something feels wrong.
So I know you actually have a quiz on your website that helps
(05:52):
people figure out if they're dealing with a fear based
leader, but just tell us how canwe identify these people and
spot them? Definitely the first.
Thing that you'll notice is a feeling that you get around them
if. You feel like you have.
To tiptoe and walk around egg shells and like you're
constantly guessing but you justdon't know if you're going to be
(06:14):
able to get. It right?
Kind of a always waiting for the.
Other shoe to drop? Feeling.
You're probably. Around someone who?
Uses fear to at. Least some degree and then
secondly when you look. At leaders like this.
They have very distinctive formsof emotionally driven logic, you
(06:35):
might notice. That this type of.
Leader does not believe in. Equality.
They think that they are either.Being stepped on or doing the
stepping. You may notice that when they
first. Meet people.
They're immediately. Assessing and testing and
pushing boundaries how much can I push this person around, you
know, will they notice what I'm doing?
Will they call me out on it and.They're always assessing.
(06:58):
The people around them to say, is this person an audience?
You know they. Classify their.
Audiences as kind of useful. Sheep or is this?
Person a useful tool, someone that I can use and then.
Maybe discard later. And so.
If you see people. Who seem to be thinking in
those. Ways, especially.
People who think of everything is winning and losing, you know,
(07:22):
everything is a game. They're always trying to be the
winner, always trying to have the most with these kind of.
Caricature ish values that. Seem more like outlines of a
person. You're probably around a fear.
Based leader. Yeah, that is so interesting.
What are some more signs? So fear based leaders see
(07:45):
themselves as better than other people, sometimes better than
their coworkers. It sounds like they're always
testing to see like how much will they take?
How much you know, BS or bossingaround will they take they could
be very demanding. Let's see, I wrote down some
notes from your website. They can expect like an
(08:05):
immediate response. They you know, you have to be
always available on your phone and you said fear based leaders
tend to gossip or even like withhold information because
then they're important and they have more information power and
control. So once we realize we're at
interacting with a fear based leader, how do we handle them?
(08:26):
What are some best practices that anyone listening can today
could like implement in their own lives?
And before we even get to that, do you have like an example of a
client who was like, I think I'mdealing with a fear based leader
or, you know, just an example oflike a workplace dynamic where
somebody could be fear based leader?
(08:48):
Yes, definitely. So I was working.
With a client recently whose company just got.
Out by bought out. By APE Fund and I've worked in.
Private equity. Private equity.
Firms are. Highly.
Extractive and the new CEO was coming in to say I'm going to
suck this company drive all its value and then you know push it
(09:09):
out the. Door.
And for someone who values the organization, that's a really
alarming thing to hear and so. What I worked with her is to.
Outline the things that she cares about most and then
reframe those things in terms ofthat new CEO's incentives and
because. She was able to.
Present the things that matter. That actually kept value.
(09:32):
In the company in ways that aligned with his goals.
He ended up leaving her initiatives alone.
Wow why would someone want to suck the company dry just so
they can like sell it sheep to afriend or something?
I don't even understand SO the the way.
Private equity works you. Can think of it as optimizing
and maximizing. So a private equity firm.
(09:55):
Might buy a company and have it undergo cost cutting exercises.
If they cut costs. But they're able to maintain
revenue, it boosts the profit margin, and then they might look
at each individual section of the company.
Assess its value. And either if it's more if the
pieces are more valuable on their own.
They'll sell the pieces. If they're more.
(10:17):
Valuable together. They'll then resell the company
as it is. The thing is.
Private equity ownership doesn'tfeel good.
To most. People who are stuck in private.
Equity owned firms and so when you.
Have private equity? Barons who are coming to.
Call. It's all about.
Knowing how to speak their language of winning and losing
(10:39):
if you can help them understand how.
What you care about? Is is winning then?
You're able to have. More autonomy and how they deal
with things. OK.
And then in general for people listening, what are some basic
best practices that we can implement as far as handling
fear based leaders? Yeah, definitely.
(11:03):
So the. First thing that you.
Have to understand is that this type of leader weaponizes
information that means that you should never.
Tell the leader what you actually really care about.
Because if you're really excited.
About. Initiative or if you.
Really want to go on vacation with your kids for spring break?
You can bet that that's the first initiative.
They'll kill or the. You know they'll cancel your.
(11:25):
PTOA day before you're. Supposed to leave on vacation.
Because they really like. Getting a reaction and that
leads to kind of the next thing,which is.
These types of leaders live. For knowing that they're causing
big emotional reactions and others it makes them feel.
Powerful to see that they're. Having a profound effect, so you
(11:48):
have to. Practice having a poker face.
Don't let them see. That they're affecting you.
And if they can't affect you? They will get.
Bored and go try to kick something else Poker face and
OK, what was the other thing yousaid?
Hold on. Don't share what you care about.
(12:09):
Yeah, don't communicate, don't over share.
Yes, this is the latest podcast I've ever done, 530 Mountain
time at night, so I apologize. Yes, don't over share.
Don't over share and have a poker face.
Definitely some of these signs of a fear based leader sound
like symptoms of narcissism. Like things like telling people,
(12:33):
you know, you'd be nothing without me or scaring people
into doing what they want because they just think it's
such black and white terms. Like what I want is good and you
know, it's my way or the highway.
And I feel like usually the behavior is shocking at 1st and
it's done in private, you know, like not in front of everybody
(12:54):
and they keep a good image. So how are these people actually
predictable? They are really predictable
because at their core they're very.
Emotionally immature and emotionally immature people
don't have access to a nuanced. Set of levers or.
Actions. They tend to think in black and
(13:17):
white ways, and they tend to actin.
Ways that are highly. Aligned with their self-interest
and. Because these types of leaders
project a very postured I'm a big bully.
Be scared of me. Type of image.
A lot of. People struggle to map.
(13:37):
Their behavior to see. That they're almost always
following a pattern of if this, then that.
But they do. Follow a pattern and if you can.
Figure out how they. Think you can predict them and?
People who are predictable tactics work very reliably.
On them. And that's why the toolkit in my
(13:58):
book can be so. Effective.
Ah, So what are some misconceptions?
Misconceptions about fear based leaders and what are they really
like? So what's the assumption and
misconception? First of all, we think they're
strong, but they're really not. Go, go ahead.
They will lie to you and they'lltell you.
(14:20):
You know you're nothing without me.
Resistance is futile. Kind of dizzy villain type of
stuff, but you shouldn't believethem.
Because they'll tell you, hey, you're powerless.
You're actually really powerful and.
These leaders that are trying. So hard to say.
I'm big, I'm strong. Are.
(14:42):
Really, deeply, intensely insecure and and that insecurity
informs everything they do. They're called fear based.
Not because they motivate with fear.
Which they do because they themselves are.
Motivated by fear? Wow, I never thought about that.
(15:04):
Can you say that one more time? Yeah.
So these types of leaders, are they themselves?
Motivated. By fear.
When they're lying awake in bed at night, they're going Am I
enough? Will they ever like me?
If they don't like me. Will they at least?
Fear me and will that not might not be what their conscious
voice is saying every morning they get.
(15:27):
Kicked out of bed because they. Have their own inner critics
that are going get out of bed. You're not good enough.
Work harder and because fear is what?
They know. It's what they use.
To try to motivate others. Yeah.
It's like fear is running their show.
And so they're using it in theirlives to get the things they
want almost because they don't know a better way.
(15:50):
Or like it's just too foreign. Like they just can't make all of
those changes and change themselves.
That's right, they have a lot oftrouble.
With self-awareness. And even if they want to change,
they don't always know. What the right path is these
types of leaders? Missed a lot.
Of what I call. Kindergarten lessons.
(16:12):
They they didn't learn how to make friends.
They didn't. Learn how to apologize.
They didn't learn. How to trust others?
Or how to inspire. Trust.
And so telling them to. Be a strength space leader is
it's like. Asking someone to speak a
foreign language. It's so interesting because I
feel like I'm driven by fun. Like I just want to have fun in
(16:34):
life. I feel bad for these fear based
leaders. I mean, I'm in Colorado.
I tend to like, I'm in love withlike our governor.
He's adorable. I think he's really fun.
He has fun Instagram posts. Anyway, I could go on and on,
You know, and I look up to people who seem like they're
very organized and, you know, just very caring.
(16:56):
Anyways, what's a good way to determine someone's level of
emotional maturity When we are dating somebody new?
When we're dating somebody new? What?
Oh my gosh, that is such an important life skill.
And also I can. Tell you so much.
That you value fund I mean. Your voice is so bubbly it's
perfect for. Podcasting.
(17:17):
So emotional. Maturity levels are so.
Important. My book.
Has a chart that helps you clockwhat levels are.
Based on certain characteristics, but for example
if you see someone, maybe if your body.
Age is 50, but they. Spin out and throw tantrums when
they don't. Get their way.
(17:38):
They get distracted easily if they're hungry.
If they're tired, they are less.Patient, they're more.
Cranky that. Is an emotional 2 year old and
that's not someone that you wantto be in a relationship with.
If you're stuck around them at work or in life means you better
pack snacks. You better schedule breaks.
(18:00):
You better have lots of topics available to distract.
Them when they start throwing their adult tantrums then if you
find someone. Who, let's say, is very.
Interested in playing pretend? Social roles.
They're interested. In being a girlfriend, to be a
girlfriend, you know they want to be the most.
(18:23):
Popular. The prettiest They They're very.
Obsessed with group interactions.
That person is. Probably.
An emotional teenager and emotional.
Teenagers. Need.
A lot of space. They're often going through
periods of transition in their life, even if their body age is
much older, they often. Need people to, really.
(18:45):
Support them even if they're notthat great to be around.
But as an adult, you don't have to stay around that.
It's every adult's responsibility.
To make sure that. They learn and grow to be an
emotional adult. Yeah, I'm a single mom and I'm a
teacher, so I feel like I'm supporting people all day, like
my 10 and my 13 year old. And then I teach high school.
(19:08):
So I do have like high school students that I support.
And I know that as a mom, I'm supposed to lead through
inspiration, motivation, empowerment, lead by example
rather than just trying to control or negotiate or threaten
to take away the phone. But I'll be honest, sometimes I
(19:28):
feel like a threat is the only way I can make them do
something. It's like the only thing that
works. And I feel bad after I like
threatened to take away the phone or whatever it is.
But I think the difference between a good parent like
myself and someone who's like manipulative is that
manipulative people don't value the connection.
(19:50):
Is it like most important for them to have their way?
Or what's your opinion on like somebody like me who is like
threats tend to work well sometimes?
So just. Because you make threats doesn't
mean you're fear based. There's a difference between
threatening someone and making sure that someone's actions or
(20:15):
lack of actions feel their natural consequences.
Yeah, natural. It's.
No adult. Yeah, yeah.
No adult. Should ever.
Be insulating another adult fromthe consequences of their own
actions we are all responsible for ourselves and for managing
the consequences of our own choices and with.
(20:39):
A few peace leaders they, they are actually quite different
because with you, you probably. Have an amazing connection with
your kids and if you don't get something right, you repair and
you reconnect and. With fear based leaders.
They don't actually know how to connect to begin with in in
(21:00):
their world there is only power and there is only control.
And if they want. The proxy for.
Connection which is attention. They feel like.
They need people below them. Connection implies equality.
You're reaching across a bridge and finding each other.
Fear based leaders are. Way up here.
(21:20):
They want to be way up here and they want everyone else down
here. And so you'll see these
situations where fear based leaders, if someone comes up and
is equal around them, they either take them out.
Or they try to. Push them down by nagging them
or some of these. Other things.
And so it's it's quite a different space to play.
(21:41):
Yeah. You know, have you heard of the
power and control wheel for everybody listening?
You can Google that, the power and control wheel.
And it's like eye opening. And I feel like you probably
have a lot of awesome diagrams and tools in your book.
So I encourage everybody to go out and grab your book.
I want you to tell me the name of the book in like one second,
(22:01):
but I just wanted to mention that power and control wheel
because I remember I was dealingwith somebody who was a
controlling person, perhaps fearbased.
And at the time the school social worker was like, you
should look up the power and control wheel.
And as soon as I did, I was like, you know, because they use
so many different things to gainpower over you, you know,
(22:23):
financial control, emotional control, all of these things.
It sounds completely exhausting.But anyway, tell me the name of
your book again, Tell everyone in here my book is called
Unbreakable, How to Thrive. Under fear based leaders.
I love it and I think an extremeexample of like a negative
family dynamic is like where dadtells you to stop crying or
(22:47):
he'll give you something to cry about.
Like that's just complete control and 0 connection.
And you know there's violence inthe home.
This is some things that you cansee in the power and control
wheel where family members use threat or fear or abuse.
And you know, there's a famous Hollywood stuntwoman, Kimberly
Shannon Murphy, and she has a story about her grandfather
(23:11):
abusing her. And so for everyone listening,
if you grew up in a fear based family dynamic or if you feel
stuck in a fear based relationship or workplace as an
adult, it might take a lot of time and practice to Start
learning how to handle fear based manipulators with
confidence. Because it's, I think we can
(23:32):
fall into the habit of people pleasing, especially if like as
a child you were kind of groomedto be a people pleaser.
Do you have any comments about that?
Yes, so people. Pleasing in trauma psychology.
Is what we call. The fond response?
So when you think. About flight, fight, freeze.
(23:53):
Fond if you fight a fear based parent, they may harm you.
If you if you're a child. You cannot actually flee.
If if you. Freeze.
Their behavior often escalates and so many people instead learn
that. It's best to please or
anticipate. The needs of an abuser.
As a form of. Preventative de escalation and
(24:17):
so. For folks that struggle with.
That often what I find. Is that they deprioritize.
Their own needs in in order to meet.
Others. And and so remember that you
cannot help others if you do not.
First help yourself. So put your.
(24:39):
Oxygen mask on 1st. And remember.
You won't get any. Gold Star for.
Pleasing someone else who who does not know how to please
himself. Yeah.
And some fear based leaders are never pleased like you were
talking about. They're always moving the goal
post. You know, I'm just picturing
like, maybe you're in a relationship and your partner's
(25:01):
like, well, you have to pay, youknow, like the whole gas bill.
Oh, now you have to pay the electricity bill.
And now you have to do this and not, you know, like now you
can't go out with your friends. Like all of these things.
Like people can really like set rules for relationships that are
dysfunctional and not serving us.
And so I do think boundaries areimportant.
(25:23):
Like as a, as a people pleaser, I usually just set boundaries.
So I'm like, I'm not even dealing with that because I know
like that's a temptation to get into like a dysfunctional
dynamic. So that's one way.
As an adult, I handle things. I just cut people off when they
seem a little sketchy. Why do you go ahead?
(25:44):
That's really smart if if. You can leave a situation with a
fear based leader. You should.
Yeah, even at work sometimes. Start looking for other more fun
jobs. Like life is short, you don't
want to deal with stress. Kate, why do you think fear
based leadership is re emerging as a thing in or in our society?
(26:05):
Why is it even celebrated to some degree?
I feel like it is becoming a thing.
It is everywhere. You know, even just look at our
TV shows, Game of Thrones, Houseof Cards, Billions Succession.
They are all fear based leaders.And what I have noticed is that
(26:26):
I had about 30 managers in my career now and when I.
Started out about 3. And 10 leaders that I ran into,
is my managers as clients as different?
Executives I work with were likethis.
And in the last five years, it'sbeen more like 7 and 10.
And that is not a good sign. You know, five years ago, CE OS
(26:49):
had to at least pretend to care about their employees.
Parents had to pretend to care. About their kids.
And now we're seeing people saying no.
This is This is. My Kingdom people can get in
line or get out. I I want people to say how high
when I say jump. Right.
(27:11):
And I think that. That's because we're.
Seeing more role models. In society.
Acting like that in business. You have people like.
Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg andthese really polarizing figures
who people look at and they go. Well, they're rich.
They're powerful and they're allowed to act this way, so I'm
(27:32):
going to act. That way too.
Yeah, so depending on what role models you choose, you can just
think that you have to be fear based.
Also, Kate, I'll tell everyone where they can find you online.
But before we wrap up, like whatis one last bit of advice for
anyone listening who still needssome tips on dealing with a
(27:54):
bully or a fear based leader? Yeah, so if you need help
dealing with a bully or a fear based leader, I would say that.
You need to learn how to pity them.
You need to learn. How to go wow.
(28:15):
This is an emotionally stunted human being.
They will never know the meaningof true connection.
They don't know. The joy of equality.
And I'm going to look down on them.
Because. They will never know those
things. And as long as, you know, I am
able to experience joy and I'm able to experience connection, I
(28:38):
will always have something that they will not.
And so the bully might try to put me down, but I know where
things really stand. Yeah.
I think it's really important to, like, find your tribe.
And after talking to you, I'm glad I've never worked in the
corporate world. I've worked in education my
whole life. And, like, it really is a
(28:58):
beautiful community. And like, teachers care and,
like, we get a kick out of the students.
We, you know, we get a kick out of them.
Like we think they're hilarious and and so.
Wow. Yeah, I'm sure the corporate
world can be a little bit cutthroat sometimes.
Is there anything else that you want to talk about on the
podcast today? Because I I kind of ran out of
(29:19):
questions quickly. I don't know what happened, but
what do you think? Yeah, so the other.
Thing I think is just so important for people to
understand. Is that you?
Can't pour it from an empty cup.And so to your point about
having fun. People that should make a list
of what brings. Them joy, what brings them,
(29:41):
energy what makes them. Feel recharged because spending.
Time in systems with unfair leaders like this is very
draining, and that means that you need to proactively and
intentionally schedule time for you to really.
Recharge. And.
(30:03):
I would tell people. That they should not.
Base their whole. Identity around the role.
That a fear based leader. Is trying to put them in, you
know, if this is your husband and and you're a wife and
they're trying to tell. You, you're a terrible.
Wife. Nothing.
You ever? Do is right?
I want you to. Remember everything you are.
Beyond just a wife. Maybe you are.
(30:24):
Also a nurse or a mother. Or a gardener.
Or a volunteer. Make sure that you.
Are. Defining the sources of your
identity as drawing from many different things that make you
you so that if someone attacks one aspect of your identity, you
don't collapse. Yeah, I think that's so
(30:47):
important. Like, I was married for 10 years
and then I got a divorce. And I think what helped me was
like, even if I felt a little bit disempowered in my identity
as a single mom, like my kids were one and four, I thought
back onto times where I felt like a boss babe.
I thought back to college where I was like raking in
(31:07):
scholarships and studying abroad.
So for listeners, you know, evenif you think back to when you
learned to drive or when you bought your first car, something
that you did, you know, at some point in your life, you gained
freedom through like your hard work, your creative problem
solving and your actions. And so yes, think back to a time
(31:29):
when you felt powerful and try to tap into that sensation.
You can even, like, meditate about, like, powerful, happy,
strong memories because, yeah, if it's one thing that I really
encourage people to do is if youare in a bad relationship, it is
better to get out even if you think it's going to break you.
(31:49):
Oh, my gosh. I mean, the title of your book
is Unbreakable. You know, like even those things
that we think will break us, we can survive it.
Yeah, you are. So much stronger than you know
and. People difficult people like
this will try to take. Pieces of you with them and.
(32:10):
Keep keep yourself whole well. You know, let them scratch at
you and take take nothing away because no one can make you feel
if no one can make you inferior without your consent.
And it can be very tempting whenpeople say, get down there, be
on the. Floor prostate yourself to to
say that because it's scary whenpeople.
(32:31):
Are loud and noisy and domineering.
But there are other ways. I mean, I would imagine like at
the workplace to like try to getthings in writing.
If they tell you like do something really weird, ask them
to e-mail you that request, you know, wouldn't you say that's a
good thing to do? I am a big fan of confirmation
(32:51):
emails. I just want to follow up and
confirm what I heard in that meeting, you know, because of
the takeaways that I noticed. And here are the next steps.
It's like highly professional. But if they don't deny it in a
response, then on paper you know.
It it helps provide a trail, butthat is what.
Happened so interesting. Would you say like there's a big
(33:16):
difference between a narcissist and a fear based leader?
Yeah. So the psychological.
Term for a. Fear based leader is actually
dark triad psychology. And and that.
Are is folks that have. A mix of narcissism, sociopathy
and Machiavellianism. And so you could.
(33:38):
Think of a fear based leader. As narcissism plus OK.
They're people who do. Feed on attention.
But they also have a particular.Desire to harm, and they tend to
have. Big.
Schemes. Whether?
That's being the mayor of a cityor running a faith organization
(33:58):
or, you know, building a big tech.
Company, there are people. Who are thinking about how to
turn a system to their advantageand that's why you find them in
these. Big leadership roles.
Like Roman warrior succession orCersei Lannister and Game of
Thrones. Well, thank you, Kate, for being
here today at Dissolving Fear. Tell everyone where they can
(34:20):
find you and where they can findyour new book, Unbreakable.
Oh, thank you so much. So you can.
Find me on Instagram at Kate Unbreakable Lowry.
You can find me on Sub Stack. At Kate Lowry dot.
Substack.com on my. Website Kate Lowry dot.
Com and my book is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and
wherever else. Books are sold.
(34:41):
Awesome. Any last words of wisdom that
you would like to leave us with here today on the podcast?
Yeah. Just remember you're less alone
than you feel, and it may feel. Like the world is.
Changing and that's. OK, you just.
Need to learn new new new skills?
To meet it where it's at. Yes, and we can all, we're not
alone, like you said, we can allhelp each other build skills,
(35:05):
build confidence, and build likea more fun and free future for
everybody. That's what I'm all about here
at the podcast, like personal freedom and not being afraid to
expand and evolve and grow and not being afraid of your own
power. Because I think a lot of times
we're not afraid of failure, we're just afraid of our own
(35:25):
power. That completes our episode for
today. If this podcast content felt
true for you, then follow the podcast today or leave a rating
and review on Apple Podcasts. Feel free to explore all 90 plus
episodes of the Dissolving Fear Podcast on Spotify and
everywhere you get your podcasts.
(35:46):
And keep exploring your favoriteways to dissolve fear and live
your best life every single day.
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