May 27, 2025 • 30 mins
Financial independence isn't just important during divorce—it's absolutely essential. In this powerful conversation with Certified Divorce Financial Analyst Donna Cates, we explore how women can take control of their financial futures while navigating the emotional and practical challenges of divorce.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So what happens if the marriage ends?
And I've worked with hundredsof women going through divorce.
Even those that are just newlywidowed and the ones that I find
thrive post that lifetransition, are the ones who
have taken ownership of theirfinancial future.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Keri
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law, Whether you're
(00:42):
going through it, considering itor just curious.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
This is your place for clarity, confidence and
resilience.
Welcome back to Divorce DiariesLessons from the Trenches.
I'm your host, keri Jacobson,and on this podcast we explore
the challenges of divorce andhow to navigate them, with
expert advice from professionalswho have seen it all, and
today's episode is all aboutfinancial empowerment.
Meet Donna Cates.
She is a trailblazer dedicatedto transitioning women's
(01:04):
financial futures.
With over two decades ofexperience as a financial
advisor, a wealth builder,certified divorce financial
analyst, chartered retirementplanning counselor and a divorce
financial mediator, donna issteadfast in her mission to
empower women at any stage oflife.
Donna's innovative approachchallenges the historical
(01:26):
inequities in women's financialparticipation.
She creates customizedfinancial plans considering
diverse goals and roles,addressing everything from early
career challenges in life'scomplex transitions.
By championing the idea that aman is not a financial plan,
donna fosters independence andconfidence among women.
(01:48):
Donna leads two successfulenterprises Money Matters Wealth
Solutions, where she addressescomprehensive financial planning
and investing needs, andNavigating Divorce, which
focuses on divorce financialmediation.
Donna regularly conductseducational workshops for women,
speaks at women's organizationsand is a two-time best-selling
(02:11):
author of Divorce Decoded amanifesto for women navigating
divorce as well as Beyond theFinancial Trendsetters,
revolutionizing the role womenplay in building wealth.
Thank you so much for beinghere, donna the role women play
in building wealth.
Thank you, so much for beinghere, donna.
I'm thrilled to be here, keri,good to see you, welcome to the
(02:34):
show, and I'd love for you tokind of share a little bit with
our listeners about how you gotstarted.
You know a little bit aboutyour background and why you
decided to focus on financialplanning and working with women
primarily.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I would love to share that.
So this is actually a secondcareer for me, carrie.
And when I came into thefinancial planning investment
management world, you know, backin the day we were doing a lot
of seminars to educate people,and my focus at that point was
on retirement planning, and Ihad a lot of men and women,
(03:07):
typically in their 60s to 70s,that were attending these
workshops.
But what I found by doing thosein-person events was that most
of the people that approached mefor advice and help were the
women.
So I determined very early inmy career that it probably would
behoove me to focus on workingwith women, and, interestingly
(03:32):
enough, I discovered too thatdivorce attorneys were helping
people get through the divorceprocess, but they weren't
necessarily giving really soundfinancial advice to these women
that they were working with.
So that's when I got mycertified divorce financial
analyst designation and made adecision to really focus on
(03:55):
working with women in transition, especially those that are
divorcing, so that we could helpthem make more informed
decisions as they werenavigating the divorce process,
and that's been my passion for20 years.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
That's amazing, and tell us a little bit more about
how you work with women who aregoing through that divorce
process.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Happy to talk about that.
So, basically, when anybody isconsidering divorce, you know we
automatically think of hiringan attorney, but there really is
the need for a team and I'm notsaying that you don't need to
hire an attorney becauseeverybody needs to be
represented.
However, you also need to havesomebody that can help you with
(04:46):
the money decisions.
So when you meet with me, it'stypically going to be through
one of my divorce workshops or areferral, and what I do is to
help you pull together all ofthe financial aspects of your
household.
So a lot of women we've had atendency to take a backseat to
(05:08):
the money stuff when it comes toour household.
So this is a time when wereally have to pull up our big
girl britches and pull togetherall of the financial information
so we understand what it isthat we're working to negotiate
dividing in the divorce.
So that's my first step is tohelp women understand what all
(05:31):
information they need to bepulling together so that we
don't leave anything out of theequation no-transcript final,
(06:07):
but into the future as well, andmy hope is that this is helping
women make more informeddecisions about how they're
negotiating their divorcesettlement.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Absolutely, and that way they're going into whether
it's mediation or thenegotiations, with their
attorney prepared and having theinformation that they may not
have already had otherwise.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Correct and with you as a mediator, I'm sure you've
had people show up to mediatethat just didn't even have all
the information.
And my question is always howare you going to mediate
something if you don't have allthe information?
And my question is always howare you going to mediate
something if you don't have allthe info?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, sometimes there is definitely some homework
that has to be done in betweenthose sessions so that they can
gather that additionalinformation.
And sometimes, you know, I mayalso recommend that they reach
out to a financial professionalor maybe they are talking about
the house and they need to, youknow, reach out to a mortgage
(07:10):
broker.
So sometimes there isadditional information gathering
when they're in those mediationsessions.
So is there in your experience?
Is there a one common mistakethat you can point to that
you've seen women make duringthe divorce process that could
(07:30):
have otherwise been prevented?
Speaker 1 (07:33):
The number one mistake is not knowing what they
have.
You know, they've just not beeninvolved in managing the
household finances, so theydon't know all of the assets,
all of the debts or even themarital income.
So that's the first one.
The second one is going to befighting to keep the house at
all cost, even when they have noidea what the cash flow is
(07:56):
required to keep the home.
So two, two big ones rightthere.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
And I would 100% agree with both of those.
All right, so let's talk aboutthis phrase that I know that you
love and I absolutely agreewith Having a man is not a
financial plan.
What does that mean to you, andwhy is it such a crucial
mindset shift for women who maybe going through a divorce or
(08:27):
who may be even, you know, bethinking about getting married?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
A man is not a financial plan.
It either makes you angry oryou go.
Hmm, that's kind of true.
But when I say that, it'sreally about women recognizing
their own financial power,because, carrie, for generations
we've either been taughtdirectly or indirectly that our
(08:52):
husband's going to handle themoney, all the investments, in
the financial decisions.
So what happens if the marriageends or if he's just making
poor financial choices?
And I've worked with hundredsof women going through divorce,
even those that are just newlywidowed, and the ones that I
find thrive post that lifetransition, are the ones who
(09:15):
have taken ownership of theirfinancial future.
So it's not just aboutsurviving through either the
widowhood or divorce, but it'sabout thriving and making
informed decisions as we'rerebuilding that secure financial
future for yourselves.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I agree with, wholeheartedly with, that.
And the other thing that I'mseeing a lot more you know talk
about is this rise of theso-called trad wife movement.
I don't know if this issomething that you have heard
about.
You know the traditional wiferole, where women are in the
(09:56):
stay-at-home parent role andreally aren't participating in
the financial space.
Maybe they just simply don'tknow what's going on or they are
not financially contributing tothe household, with the
expectation that their spouse isgoing to continue to
financially support thehousehold.
(10:18):
Do you have any concerns aboutwhat happens in those scenarios?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's vitally important, when you are not the
major breadwinner or you justaren't at the financial table,
that you really do understandwhat all you have.
And this is where including afinancial advisor is going to be
helpful, because we know thetypes of things you might have.
(10:46):
For example, if your husband'sworking for a large company that
likely has a pension, we knowto make sure that we ask about
that pension.
But if you don't know theinformation, you just don't know
what you're negotiating andyou're likely to leave things
off the table.
I think one of the mostimportant things as the non-bred
(11:08):
winner or the stay-at-home momyou know, the non-working spouse
is to really understand whatyour living expenses are.
Most of us you know we justspend money as we need it.
You know we get things that weneed when we need them.
But the reality is is a lot ofus you know.
If I ask you, tell me about theexpenses associated with your
(11:31):
house, more than likely you'regoing to say well, the mortgage
is this much.
We have a homeowners association, but I bet you're not going to
remember that you got to pay thepest control guy every quarter,
or that literally, my pestcontrol guy just showed up last
week and I was like, okay, yeah,I would not have remembered
that expense the lawnmaintenance, the pool
(11:53):
maintenance, all of the thingsthat are associated.
So we really have to kind ofdig deep and figure out what is
it that we're spending money onday to day, including that that
we're spending money on day today, including that that we're
spending for the children?
Because the reality is isyou're going from a household
that either has one income ortwo.
Now you're going to twohouseholds and you still have
(12:16):
the same level of income.
So we've got to understand whatit's costing you to live, and
this is literally what yourattorneys and mediators, like
Carrie, are going to use to helpyou determine what type of
additional, you know, maritalsupport you might need, or I'm
not calling it the right thingalimony, that type of thing.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Right, that's right, Great, Absolutely.
Are there a few first stepsthat women should take other
than gathering the informationyou know?
So maybe they've alreadystarted that process.
They've gathered theinformation.
They now know what their budgetis.
You know what those householdexpenses are.
They now know what the assetsare Outside of those couple of
(13:04):
things.
Are there any other first stepsthat women should take when
they are going through thedivorce process, if they have
not been the ones in charge ofmoney?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
I believe one of the first things is to ask your
attorney to put in an order tomaintain the status quo,
especially if you don't haveaccess to the assets, bank
accounts and what have you.
We want to make sure that yoursignificant other doesn't just
start spending money liquidatingaccounts, moving assets.
(13:39):
So having that standing order,you know, to keep the status quo
while you're going through thedivorce process, I think is a
really important you know step.
Know that you can't do thatuntil one of you is actually
filed for divorce though.
So if you aren't there yet, thekey is to make sure that you're
(13:59):
protecting your credit, thatyou have an individual account
that you only have access to andthat that is funded.
Now remember, if you take moneyfrom a bank account that's
currently jointly owned, that'sstill a marital asset, but you
might elect to just take out alittle bit of the money that's
(14:21):
in the savings account andearmark it into a new account
that only you have access to,just for safekeeping.
Again, you're not taking themoney away from the household,
you're just dividing it out sothat only you have access to it,
and that's a common protectionmechanism, just because we don't
know when somebody might decideto go close out an account just
(14:44):
because we don't know whensomebody might decide to go
close out an account.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, that's always a tricky one for me as an
attorney as far as advising aclient on, because I 100% agree
that there's the protectionmechanism.
What I sometimes fear and youmay have seen it on the
mediation side fear, and you mayhave seen it on the mediation
(15:10):
side is that it can potentiallyraise the conflict between the
parties and then escalate thetension, and so it's a fine line
that I think women have to orreally anyone in that scenario
have to walk to make sure thatthey are protecting themselves
but also that they're notinadvertently making the overall
(15:32):
case and negotiations morecomplicated.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Right, and that's the whole thing.
We can't upset the apple cart.
It's already upset enough.
So, and that's why I alwaysadvocate for full disclosure hey
, this is what I'm doing.
It's not a secret, I'm puttingit out there.
This is why I'm doing what I'mdoing.
That just makes it you knowabove board.
Everybody knows what's going on.
(15:56):
But, yeah, there's always therisk of raising the red flag.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Right, and sometimes I also recommend getting a
credit card in their ownindividual name.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
So if expenses come up throughout the process,
whether it's professional feesor you know anything else, then
they have that kind of to fallback on.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Absolutely essential.
And you know another thing,carrie is, a lot of women don't
know that you know, when you'reapplying for a credit card, you
most of us are doing that online.
Now the credit card applicationis going to ask for your income
, but it's also going to have aspace on that application where
(16:37):
you're providing the householdincome.
And the reality is is, ifyou're filing or applying for
that credit card while you'restill married, you're actually
likely to get more creditavailable to you because you're
including the household income.
So to me, that's a step thatyou need to take.
If you don't already have acredit card in your name, that's
(16:59):
one of the first things thatyou want to consider while you
still have those marital incomeassets.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Absolutely.
I know that some women strugglewith financial confidence.
You know either pre-divorce andsometimes after divorce and
they may say you know, I've justnever been good with money.
I struggle with handlingfinances.
I just this is not somethingI've ever done.
How do you help women shiftthat mindset?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Well, this is literally one of my favorite
topics, because, women, we'realready great with money.
We've just been conditioned todoubt ourselves about it.
So here's how we turn thataround.
Number one education is power,and I teach women the basics of
cash flow, investing, financialplanning in a way that makes
(17:52):
sense to them.
So we're not talking down toanybody there's never a bad or
dumb question but we've got tostart wherever we are and then
know that just a small win isgoing to help you build
confidence.
So if you just start byidentifying what your expenses
are today and being able to saythis is what my monthly cash
(18:13):
flow looks like, that's a winfor you.
So take that and pat yourselfon the back.
Another thing that I recommendis that you really surround
yourself with the right people,working with the professionals
who respect your goals, and whatit is that you're working to
achieve is paramount to success,and if you ever are working
(18:34):
with somebody and you feel likethey're just not listening to
you, it's okay to find somebodyelse, because the thing nothing
that we do should be cookiecutter.
Everything should be customizedto what your needs are.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Everyone's situation is so different.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yes, and everybody, whether you've not ever paid
attention to the financialwell-being of your family or not
, know that you're capable,you're smart and you can
absolutely manage and grow yourown wealth.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Right, how do you work with women on financial
planning?
You know, post transition,whether it's, you know, from a
divorce or the death of a spouseversus someone who may have
otherwise, you know, really beenthe one handling the finances
from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I think the unique thing here is taking into
consideration the person'sexperience.
You know, what exposure havethey had to all of the money
things you know?
And if it's not there, I alwaysstart with education.
Because if I don't start witheducation, everybody's going to
be so overwhelmed withinformation it's going to be
(19:49):
deer in the headlights.
I'm literally afraid to takeaction.
So it all starts with basiceducation, and at whatever level
you're at.
But once we have a clearerunderstanding of all of the
moving pieces of your financialwell-being, then we can start
mapping out a plan.
(20:09):
And that's where you know.
This is where the other side ofdivorce can be really positive,
because now you're totally incharge of what happens with your
financial well-being.
So we actually talk aboutwhat's important to you, about
money.
A lot of us feel shamefularound money, you know, because
(20:31):
of how we've been raised.
But the reality is it takesmoney to do just about
everything we want to do.
So we talk about what'simportant to you what do you
want to be able to do and whendo you want to do that?
So we're actually talking aboutyour virtues and your
priorities and getting those inorder first.
Once we know what's important toyou.
(20:52):
Now we're going to take a lookat what you have in place.
That's going to includeeverything from cash flow
analysis to your investmentstrategy, to your savings
strategy strategy to yoursavings strategy all of the
moving pieces.
There is what we pull togetherand we're first going to
(21:14):
identify are there any gaps?
Is there anything that'smissing that we know we need to
rectify right away?
And how we prioritize thosenext step action steps is based
on your priorities.
So that's why having thatindividual, customized plan is
so important.
But I think you know, for me,it's always starting with
getting the client comfortablewith the decisions that they're
going to be faced with, so thatthey can make informed decisions
(21:37):
and not being overwhelmed bythe process.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, yes, and really focusing on each of those steps
one by one, so that they arenot overwhelmed by the whole
thing at one time.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
That's correct, and I have to tell you some people.
They just want you to deliverthe entire financial plan
results to them in one sitting,and I've literally quit doing
that because of the paralysis.
I would rather map out stepsfor us to take over the next six
(22:15):
months to even 12 months, sothat we can tackle them one at a
time, because then we're takingbaby steps but we're getting
things done.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Right.
How does your advice change ifyou're working with someone who
is going through a gray divorce,which we typically are, you
know, deeming 50, 55 plus, whoare closer to that retirement
age?
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Well, the major shift in that conversation is that
people are either closer toretiring or they're already
retired, and for those who areno longer bringing in any income
, the conversation is totallydifferent, because there's no
opportunity to continue to growwhat you have invested already.
(23:03):
So we have to really becognizant of what exists already
and how we're going to be ableto stretch whatever those assets
are, invest them properly, sowe're getting the kind of growth
that we need without a lot ofrisk, so that we can maintain
your current lifestylethroughout your life, and life
(23:26):
expectancies are expanding andif you're not working and
bringing in more money, you knowyou've got to make that money
that you have.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
Work hard for you and last for you, can you talk
about the emotional side ofmoney and divorce?
Are there things like fear andguilt or shame, as you mentioned
before, that show up with yourclients who are going through
divorce, and how do you workwith them to get past those
(23:56):
things?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
That is such an awesome question because the
thing is, money is emotional andwhen we're making decisions
about money, it makes sense forus to separate out the emotions
from the money.
We're emotional human beingsand everything that we do is
based off of emotions.
So we really do kind of have totake a step back and say, okay,
(24:20):
well, today I've got on mybusiness hat, today I'm looking
at this, you know, in a logicalway.
Yes, I'm still going to feel myemotions and I'm going to deal
with my emotions, but we'regoing to separate that out from
the decision making process andI am always an advocate for my
clients to have either a lifecoach, a divorce coach or a
(24:45):
counselor, or maybe all three adivorce coach or a counselor or
maybe all three.
But the thing is, is that afinancial advisor and an
attorney?
You know, we're not trained inworking with people in their
emotions.
I understand them, I know themand I experienced them, but I
don't have the educationalbackground to help you deal with
those emotions as you're goingthrough life.
(25:06):
So a counselor, of course, ishelping you with you know back
stuff, you know what the traumaand stuff that we grew up with,
but a coach is going to beworking with you in the present
and helping you restructure andbuild for the future.
So again it goes back to havingthat divorce team and, even if
(25:26):
it's not divorce, just havingthat professional team around
you that can help you make thebest decisions, regardless of
what's going on emotionally orwhatever.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
I do agree that the team is absolutely critical
because we all do play suchdifferent roles and have
different strengths andeducation, and one professional
is not meant to handle all ofthose things.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Correct and you know, and a couple of people, a
couple of team members that I'mtypically recommending I think
you mentioned earlier a mortgagebroker, you know is if we're
thinking about either keepingthe house or buying out our
spouse's share, you know we'regoing to need to refinance the
mortgage and see if we evenqualify for a mortgage and can
(26:16):
we get that extra money so wecan buy out our you know, ex's
share of the house.
We may have to put our house onthe market.
So, having a real estate agentand there are real estate agents
and mortgage brokers who aretrained specifically in divorce,
so that's another area where wecan add to the team to help you
(26:37):
make smart decisions.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Absolutely, and when most professionals can give you
referrals, because we typicallydo have those professionals that
we work with regularly and thatare prepared for those
scenarios.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
All right.
What's one message that youwould want every woman going
through divorce to hear when itcomes to her finances?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
to hear when it comes to her finances.
Number one a man is not afinancial plan.
And then number two you areable and capable of managing
money on your own, regardless ofwhere you are.
We're going to assess where youare and figure out what we need
to do to train you and get yourconfidence built up so that you
(27:30):
know that you're going to bemaking the best informed
decisions for yourself and yourfamily as you navigate that
transition.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
That's so helpful to really let people know that they
are empowered to make thosedecisions themselves.
Yes, donna, thank you so much.
Where can our listeners findout more about you and the
services that you provide?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
You are welcome to visit my website, which is
probably going to be the mosthelpful, and that's
moneymatterswealthcom.
I'm also on social mediaLinkedIn, facebook and Instagram
and I do a second Saturdaydivorce workshop, and we are
actually holding that workshopvirtually, so the only qualifier
(28:18):
for attending that is to be afemale, so you can register for
that workshop at my website aswell.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, donna, forbeing here today and sharing
your wisdom.
Remember that divorce canchange your relationship status,
but it doesn't have to defineyour financial future.
Take what you've learned todayand start taking control.
And to our listeners if youfound this episode helpful,
please subscribe, leave us areview and share this episode
(28:47):
with anyone who might benefit.
Remember, divorce doesn't haveto be a disaster.
Learning from the lessons ofothers can help you make smarter
decisions and avoid unnecessarydrama.
Thanks for tuning in to DivorceDiaries Lessons from the
Trenches.
I'm your host, keri Jacobsonhost.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Keri Jacobson.
Thanks for joining us today onthis episode of Divorce Diaries.
Remember, every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
So what happens if the marriage ends?
And I've worked with hundredsof women going through divorce.
Even those that are just newlywidowed and the ones that I find
thrive post that lifetransition, are the ones who
have taken ownership of theirfinancial future.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Keri
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law, Whether you're
(00:42):
going through it, considering itor just curious.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
This is your place for clarity, confidence and
resilience.
Welcome back to Divorce DiariesLessons from the Trenches.
I'm your host, keri Jacobson,and on this podcast we explore
the challenges of divorce andhow to navigate them, with
expert advice from professionalswho have seen it all, and
today's episode is all aboutfinancial empowerment.
Meet Donna Cates.
She is a trailblazer dedicatedto transitioning women's
(01:04):
financial futures.
With over two decades ofexperience as a financial
advisor, a wealth builder,certified divorce financial
analyst, chartered retirementplanning counselor and a divorce
financial mediator, donna issteadfast in her mission to
empower women at any stage oflife.
Donna's innovative approachchallenges the historical
(01:26):
inequities in women's financialparticipation.
She creates customizedfinancial plans considering
diverse goals and roles,addressing everything from early
career challenges in life'scomplex transitions.
By championing the idea that aman is not a financial plan,
donna fosters independence andconfidence among women.
(01:48):
Donna leads two successfulenterprises Money Matters Wealth
Solutions, where she addressescomprehensive financial planning
and investing needs, andNavigating Divorce, which
focuses on divorce financialmediation.
Donna regularly conductseducational workshops for women,
speaks at women's organizationsand is a two-time best-selling
(02:11):
author of Divorce Decoded amanifesto for women navigating
divorce as well as Beyond theFinancial Trendsetters,
revolutionizing the role womenplay in building wealth.
Thank you so much for beinghere, donna the role women play
in building wealth.
Thank you, so much for beinghere, donna.
I'm thrilled to be here, keri,good to see you, welcome to the
(02:34):
show, and I'd love for you tokind of share a little bit with
our listeners about how you gotstarted.
You know a little bit aboutyour background and why you
decided to focus on financialplanning and working with women
primarily.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I would love to share that.
So this is actually a secondcareer for me, carrie.
And when I came into thefinancial planning investment
management world, you know, backin the day we were doing a lot
of seminars to educate people,and my focus at that point was
on retirement planning, and Ihad a lot of men and women,
(03:07):
typically in their 60s to 70s,that were attending these
workshops.
But what I found by doing thosein-person events was that most
of the people that approached mefor advice and help were the
women.
So I determined very early inmy career that it probably would
behoove me to focus on workingwith women, and, interestingly
(03:32):
enough, I discovered too thatdivorce attorneys were helping
people get through the divorceprocess, but they weren't
necessarily giving really soundfinancial advice to these women
that they were working with.
So that's when I got mycertified divorce financial
analyst designation and made adecision to really focus on
(03:55):
working with women in transition, especially those that are
divorcing, so that we could helpthem make more informed
decisions as they werenavigating the divorce process,
and that's been my passion for20 years.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
That's amazing, and tell us a little bit more about
how you work with women who aregoing through that divorce
process.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Happy to talk about that.
So, basically, when anybody isconsidering divorce, you know we
automatically think of hiringan attorney, but there really is
the need for a team and I'm notsaying that you don't need to
hire an attorney becauseeverybody needs to be
represented.
However, you also need to havesomebody that can help you with
(04:46):
the money decisions.
So when you meet with me, it'stypically going to be through
one of my divorce workshops or areferral, and what I do is to
help you pull together all ofthe financial aspects of your
household.
So a lot of women we've had atendency to take a backseat to
(05:08):
the money stuff when it comes toour household.
So this is a time when wereally have to pull up our big
girl britches and pull togetherall of the financial information
so we understand what it isthat we're working to negotiate
dividing in the divorce.
So that's my first step is tohelp women understand what all
(05:31):
information they need to bepulling together so that we
don't leave anything out of theequation no-transcript final,
(06:07):
but into the future as well, andmy hope is that this is helping
women make more informeddecisions about how they're
negotiating their divorcesettlement.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Absolutely, and that way they're going into whether
it's mediation or thenegotiations, with their
attorney prepared and having theinformation that they may not
have already had otherwise.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Correct and with you as a mediator, I'm sure you've
had people show up to mediatethat just didn't even have all
the information.
And my question is always howare you going to mediate
something if you don't have allthe information?
And my question is always howare you going to mediate
something if you don't have allthe info?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, sometimes there is definitely some homework
that has to be done in betweenthose sessions so that they can
gather that additionalinformation.
And sometimes, you know, I mayalso recommend that they reach
out to a financial professionalor maybe they are talking about
the house and they need to, youknow, reach out to a mortgage
(07:10):
broker.
So sometimes there isadditional information gathering
when they're in those mediationsessions.
So is there in your experience?
Is there a one common mistakethat you can point to that
you've seen women make duringthe divorce process that could
(07:30):
have otherwise been prevented?
Speaker 1 (07:33):
The number one mistake is not knowing what they
have.
You know, they've just not beeninvolved in managing the
household finances, so theydon't know all of the assets,
all of the debts or even themarital income.
So that's the first one.
The second one is going to befighting to keep the house at
all cost, even when they have noidea what the cash flow is
(07:56):
required to keep the home.
So two, two big ones rightthere.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
And I would 100% agree with both of those.
All right, so let's talk aboutthis phrase that I know that you
love and I absolutely agreewith Having a man is not a
financial plan.
What does that mean to you, andwhy is it such a crucial
mindset shift for women who maybe going through a divorce or
(08:27):
who may be even, you know, bethinking about getting married?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
A man is not a financial plan.
It either makes you angry oryou go.
Hmm, that's kind of true.
But when I say that, it'sreally about women recognizing
their own financial power,because, carrie, for generations
we've either been taughtdirectly or indirectly that our
(08:52):
husband's going to handle themoney, all the investments, in
the financial decisions.
So what happens if the marriageends or if he's just making
poor financial choices?
And I've worked with hundredsof women going through divorce,
even those that are just newlywidowed, and the ones that I
find thrive post that lifetransition, are the ones who
(09:15):
have taken ownership of theirfinancial future.
So it's not just aboutsurviving through either the
widowhood or divorce, but it'sabout thriving and making
informed decisions as we'rerebuilding that secure financial
future for yourselves.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I agree with, wholeheartedly with, that.
And the other thing that I'mseeing a lot more you know talk
about is this rise of theso-called trad wife movement.
I don't know if this issomething that you have heard
about.
You know the traditional wiferole, where women are in the
(09:56):
stay-at-home parent role andreally aren't participating in
the financial space.
Maybe they just simply don'tknow what's going on or they are
not financially contributing tothe household, with the
expectation that their spouse isgoing to continue to
financially support thehousehold.
(10:18):
Do you have any concerns aboutwhat happens in those scenarios?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's vitally important, when you are not the
major breadwinner or you justaren't at the financial table,
that you really do understandwhat all you have.
And this is where including afinancial advisor is going to be
helpful, because we know thetypes of things you might have.
(10:46):
For example, if your husband'sworking for a large company that
likely has a pension, we knowto make sure that we ask about
that pension.
But if you don't know theinformation, you just don't know
what you're negotiating andyou're likely to leave things
off the table.
I think one of the mostimportant things as the non-bred
(11:08):
winner or the stay-at-home momyou know, the non-working spouse
is to really understand whatyour living expenses are.
Most of us you know we justspend money as we need it.
You know we get things that weneed when we need them.
But the reality is is a lot ofus you know.
If I ask you, tell me about theexpenses associated with your
(11:31):
house, more than likely you'regoing to say well, the mortgage
is this much.
We have a homeowners association, but I bet you're not going to
remember that you got to pay thepest control guy every quarter,
or that literally, my pestcontrol guy just showed up last
week and I was like, okay, yeah,I would not have remembered
that expense the lawnmaintenance, the pool
(11:53):
maintenance, all of the thingsthat are associated.
So we really have to kind ofdig deep and figure out what is
it that we're spending money onday to day, including that that
we're spending money on day today, including that that we're
spending for the children?
Because the reality is isyou're going from a household
that either has one income ortwo.
Now you're going to twohouseholds and you still have
(12:16):
the same level of income.
So we've got to understand whatit's costing you to live, and
this is literally what yourattorneys and mediators, like
Carrie, are going to use to helpyou determine what type of
additional, you know, maritalsupport you might need, or I'm
not calling it the right thingalimony, that type of thing.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Right, that's right, Great, Absolutely.
Are there a few first stepsthat women should take other
than gathering the informationyou know?
So maybe they've alreadystarted that process.
They've gathered theinformation.
They now know what their budgetis.
You know what those householdexpenses are.
They now know what the assetsare Outside of those couple of
(13:04):
things.
Are there any other first stepsthat women should take when
they are going through thedivorce process, if they have
not been the ones in charge ofmoney?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
I believe one of the first things is to ask your
attorney to put in an order tomaintain the status quo,
especially if you don't haveaccess to the assets, bank
accounts and what have you.
We want to make sure that yoursignificant other doesn't just
start spending money liquidatingaccounts, moving assets.
(13:39):
So having that standing order,you know, to keep the status quo
while you're going through thedivorce process, I think is a
really important you know step.
Know that you can't do thatuntil one of you is actually
filed for divorce though.
So if you aren't there yet, thekey is to make sure that you're
(13:59):
protecting your credit, thatyou have an individual account
that you only have access to andthat that is funded.
Now remember, if you take moneyfrom a bank account that's
currently jointly owned, that'sstill a marital asset, but you
might elect to just take out alittle bit of the money that's
(14:21):
in the savings account andearmark it into a new account
that only you have access to,just for safekeeping.
Again, you're not taking themoney away from the household,
you're just dividing it out sothat only you have access to it,
and that's a common protectionmechanism, just because we don't
know when somebody might decideto go close out an account just
(14:44):
because we don't know whensomebody might decide to go
close out an account.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, that's always a tricky one for me as an
attorney as far as advising aclient on, because I 100% agree
that there's the protectionmechanism.
What I sometimes fear and youmay have seen it on the
mediation side fear, and you mayhave seen it on the mediation
(15:10):
side is that it can potentiallyraise the conflict between the
parties and then escalate thetension, and so it's a fine line
that I think women have to orreally anyone in that scenario
have to walk to make sure thatthey are protecting themselves
but also that they're notinadvertently making the overall
(15:32):
case and negotiations morecomplicated.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Right, and that's the whole thing.
We can't upset the apple cart.
It's already upset enough.
So, and that's why I alwaysadvocate for full disclosure hey
, this is what I'm doing.
It's not a secret, I'm puttingit out there.
This is why I'm doing what I'mdoing.
That just makes it you knowabove board.
Everybody knows what's going on.
(15:56):
But, yeah, there's always therisk of raising the red flag.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Right, and sometimes I also recommend getting a
credit card in their ownindividual name.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
So if expenses come up throughout the process,
whether it's professional feesor you know anything else, then
they have that kind of to fallback on.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Absolutely essential.
And you know another thing,carrie is, a lot of women don't
know that you know, when you'reapplying for a credit card, you
most of us are doing that online.
Now the credit card applicationis going to ask for your income
, but it's also going to have aspace on that application where
(16:37):
you're providing the householdincome.
And the reality is is, ifyou're filing or applying for
that credit card while you'restill married, you're actually
likely to get more creditavailable to you because you're
including the household income.
So to me, that's a step thatyou need to take.
If you don't already have acredit card in your name, that's
(16:59):
one of the first things thatyou want to consider while you
still have those marital incomeassets.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Absolutely.
I know that some women strugglewith financial confidence.
You know either pre-divorce andsometimes after divorce and
they may say you know, I've justnever been good with money.
I struggle with handlingfinances.
I just this is not somethingI've ever done.
How do you help women shiftthat mindset?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Well, this is literally one of my favorite
topics, because, women, we'realready great with money.
We've just been conditioned todoubt ourselves about it.
So here's how we turn thataround.
Number one education is power,and I teach women the basics of
cash flow, investing, financialplanning in a way that makes
(17:52):
sense to them.
So we're not talking down toanybody there's never a bad or
dumb question but we've got tostart wherever we are and then
know that just a small win isgoing to help you build
confidence.
So if you just start byidentifying what your expenses
are today and being able to saythis is what my monthly cash
(18:13):
flow looks like, that's a winfor you.
So take that and pat yourselfon the back.
Another thing that I recommendis that you really surround
yourself with the right people,working with the professionals
who respect your goals, and whatit is that you're working to
achieve is paramount to success,and if you ever are working
(18:34):
with somebody and you feel likethey're just not listening to
you, it's okay to find somebodyelse, because the thing nothing
that we do should be cookiecutter.
Everything should be customizedto what your needs are.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Everyone's situation is so different.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yes, and everybody, whether you've not ever paid
attention to the financialwell-being of your family or not
, know that you're capable,you're smart and you can
absolutely manage and grow yourown wealth.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Right, how do you work with women on financial
planning?
You know, post transition,whether it's, you know, from a
divorce or the death of a spouseversus someone who may have
otherwise, you know, really beenthe one handling the finances
from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I think the unique thing here is taking into
consideration the person'sexperience.
You know, what exposure havethey had to all of the money
things you know?
And if it's not there, I alwaysstart with education.
Because if I don't start witheducation, everybody's going to
be so overwhelmed withinformation it's going to be
(19:49):
deer in the headlights.
I'm literally afraid to takeaction.
So it all starts with basiceducation, and at whatever level
you're at.
But once we have a clearerunderstanding of all of the
moving pieces of your financialwell-being, then we can start
mapping out a plan.
(20:09):
And that's where you know.
This is where the other side ofdivorce can be really positive,
because now you're totally incharge of what happens with your
financial well-being.
So we actually talk aboutwhat's important to you, about
money.
A lot of us feel shamefularound money, you know, because
(20:31):
of how we've been raised.
But the reality is it takesmoney to do just about
everything we want to do.
So we talk about what'simportant to you what do you
want to be able to do and whendo you want to do that?
So we're actually talking aboutyour virtues and your
priorities and getting those inorder first.
Once we know what's important toyou.
(20:52):
Now we're going to take a lookat what you have in place.
That's going to includeeverything from cash flow
analysis to your investmentstrategy, to your savings
strategy strategy to yoursavings strategy all of the
moving pieces.
There is what we pull togetherand we're first going to
(21:14):
identify are there any gaps?
Is there anything that'smissing that we know we need to
rectify right away?
And how we prioritize thosenext step action steps is based
on your priorities.
So that's why having thatindividual, customized plan is
so important.
But I think you know, for me,it's always starting with
getting the client comfortablewith the decisions that they're
going to be faced with, so thatthey can make informed decisions
(21:37):
and not being overwhelmed bythe process.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, yes, and really focusing on each of those steps
one by one, so that they arenot overwhelmed by the whole
thing at one time.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
That's correct, and I have to tell you some people.
They just want you to deliverthe entire financial plan
results to them in one sitting,and I've literally quit doing
that because of the paralysis.
I would rather map out stepsfor us to take over the next six
(22:15):
months to even 12 months, sothat we can tackle them one at a
time, because then we're takingbaby steps but we're getting
things done.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Right.
How does your advice change ifyou're working with someone who
is going through a gray divorce,which we typically are, you
know, deeming 50, 55 plus, whoare closer to that retirement
age?
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Well, the major shift in that conversation is that
people are either closer toretiring or they're already
retired, and for those who areno longer bringing in any income
, the conversation is totallydifferent, because there's no
opportunity to continue to growwhat you have invested already.
(23:03):
So we have to really becognizant of what exists already
and how we're going to be ableto stretch whatever those assets
are, invest them properly, sowe're getting the kind of growth
that we need without a lot ofrisk, so that we can maintain
your current lifestylethroughout your life, and life
(23:26):
expectancies are expanding andif you're not working and
bringing in more money, you knowyou've got to make that money
that you have.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
Work hard for you and last for you, can you talk
about the emotional side ofmoney and divorce?
Are there things like fear andguilt or shame, as you mentioned
before, that show up with yourclients who are going through
divorce, and how do you workwith them to get past those
(23:56):
things?
Speaker 1 (23:57):
That is such an awesome question because the
thing is, money is emotional andwhen we're making decisions
about money, it makes sense forus to separate out the emotions
from the money.
We're emotional human beingsand everything that we do is
based off of emotions.
So we really do kind of have totake a step back and say, okay,
(24:20):
well, today I've got on mybusiness hat, today I'm looking
at this, you know, in a logicalway.
Yes, I'm still going to feel myemotions and I'm going to deal
with my emotions, but we'regoing to separate that out from
the decision making process andI am always an advocate for my
clients to have either a lifecoach, a divorce coach or a
(24:45):
counselor, or maybe all three adivorce coach or a counselor or
maybe all three.
But the thing is, is that afinancial advisor and an
attorney?
You know, we're not trained inworking with people in their
emotions.
I understand them, I know themand I experienced them, but I
don't have the educationalbackground to help you deal with
those emotions as you're goingthrough life.
(25:06):
So a counselor, of course, ishelping you with you know back
stuff, you know what the traumaand stuff that we grew up with,
but a coach is going to beworking with you in the present
and helping you restructure andbuild for the future.
So again it goes back to havingthat divorce team and, even if
(25:26):
it's not divorce, just havingthat professional team around
you that can help you make thebest decisions, regardless of
what's going on emotionally orwhatever.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
I do agree that the team is absolutely critical
because we all do play suchdifferent roles and have
different strengths andeducation, and one professional
is not meant to handle all ofthose things.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Correct and you know, and a couple of people, a
couple of team members that I'mtypically recommending I think
you mentioned earlier a mortgagebroker, you know is if we're
thinking about either keepingthe house or buying out our
spouse's share, you know we'regoing to need to refinance the
mortgage and see if we evenqualify for a mortgage and can
(26:16):
we get that extra money so wecan buy out our you know, ex's
share of the house.
We may have to put our house onthe market.
So, having a real estate agentand there are real estate agents
and mortgage brokers who aretrained specifically in divorce,
so that's another area where wecan add to the team to help you
(26:37):
make smart decisions.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Absolutely, and when most professionals can give you
referrals, because we typicallydo have those professionals that
we work with regularly and thatare prepared for those
scenarios.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
All right.
What's one message that youwould want every woman going
through divorce to hear when itcomes to her finances?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
to hear when it comes to her finances.
Number one a man is not afinancial plan.
And then number two you areable and capable of managing
money on your own, regardless ofwhere you are.
We're going to assess where youare and figure out what we need
to do to train you and get yourconfidence built up so that you
(27:30):
know that you're going to bemaking the best informed
decisions for yourself and yourfamily as you navigate that
transition.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
That's so helpful to really let people know that they
are empowered to make thosedecisions themselves.
Yes, donna, thank you so much.
Where can our listeners findout more about you and the
services that you provide?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
You are welcome to visit my website, which is
probably going to be the mosthelpful, and that's
moneymatterswealthcom.
I'm also on social mediaLinkedIn, facebook and Instagram
and I do a second Saturdaydivorce workshop, and we are
actually holding that workshopvirtually, so the only qualifier
(28:18):
for attending that is to be afemale, so you can register for
that workshop at my website aswell.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Awesome.
Thank you so much, donna, forbeing here today and sharing
your wisdom.
Remember that divorce canchange your relationship status,
but it doesn't have to defineyour financial future.
Take what you've learned todayand start taking control.
And to our listeners if youfound this episode helpful,
please subscribe, leave us areview and share this episode
(28:47):
with anyone who might benefit.
Remember, divorce doesn't haveto be a disaster.
Learning from the lessons ofothers can help you make smarter
decisions and avoid unnecessarydrama.
Thanks for tuning in to DivorceDiaries Lessons from the
Trenches.
I'm your host, keri Jacobsonhost.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Keri Jacobson.
Thanks for joining us today onthis episode of Divorce Diaries.
Remember, every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
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