June 3, 2025 • 30 mins
Mary Blackwood, licensed clinical marriage and family therapist and founder of the Couples and Family Institute, shares her expertise on healing family systems during divorce and separation. She reveals how communication breakdowns occur when people listen to reply rather than listening to absorb, and offers practical approaches to help families navigate transitions with less trauma and more growth.
Visit mpbhealth.com to learn more about Mary Blackwood and the Couples and Family Institute's services for families in transition.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com to learn more.
Visit jacobsonworkshop.com to learn more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mary (00:00):
So if I'm only thinking about myself what I have to say
and not what my partner or theloved one has to say, then
you're not thinking about theunion that you've created.
You're only thinking about theone part of it, and that's me.
And so that's where thecommunication breakdown comes in
.
Intro/Close (00:20):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Keri
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law, whether you're
going through it, considering itor just curious this is your
(00:42):
place for clarity, confidenceand resilience.
Cary (00:46):
Hi everyone, welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from
the Trenches.
I'm your host, keri Jacobson,and in this podcast we dig into
the real issues, the hardlessons and smart strategies to
help you navigate divorce withless drama and more clarity.
Today, I'm thrilled to bejoined by someone whose work
truly embodies the heart offamily healing, by someone whose
work truly embodies the heartof family healing.
(01:07):
Mary Blackwood is a licensedclinical marriage and family
therapist and the executiveoperations director and program
director of the Couples andFamily Institute, which she
founded in 2018.
Her journey from intern tovisionary leader at MPB Group
Incorporated is so inspiring.
She has spent over a decadehelping couples and families
(01:28):
find their footing again, andshe's especially known for her
work with adoption, foster careand guardianship families.
Under her leadership, mpb Groupbecame the Adoption Competency
Agency and she continues tobring systemic, trauma-informed
and forward-thinking practicesto her team.
Mary, thank you so much forbeing here.
Mary (01:49):
Thank you, carrie for having me.
Cary (01:52):
So can you tell our listeners a little bit about
your why?
What has led you to dedicateyour career to helping families
and couples heal?
Mary (02:03):
Great question.
I think one of the things thatI think is really important is
life is short and we should gothrough life with as much
contentment and love and joy aspossible, and sometimes things
get in the way.
A trauma event, just life way.
(02:29):
A trauma event, just life.
Human development in itself isin transitioning from teenager
to launching adult, findingsomeone getting married and then
all of a sudden you discoverthey weren't really the person
that you thought, or you grewapart or whatever.
Those are all normal kind ofparts of our lives.
Sometimes we just need somebodyto help navigate that with us,
and that's where family therapyand couples therapy comes in.
(02:51):
And so, yeah, it's rewarding,frustrating at times, for sure,
but more times rewarding thannot.
Cary (03:01):
Yes, so you've built this program that incorporates
everything from premaritalcounseling to trauma-informed
family therapy.
What do you see as the mostcommon breakdowns in
communication that bringscouples into therapy?
Mary (03:20):
The number one is listening to reply versus
listening to absorb.
Willing the good of the otherfor the other is lacking.
I think the definition of lovehas been kind of I don't know
(03:42):
I'm not thinking of the word Iwant to use but the true sense
of love is willing the good ofthe other for the other, and so
if I'm willing, that, that meansI'm listening to you.
Right, I want to hear what youhave to say and I trust that you
want to do the same, and Ithink everything is reactionary
and everyone wants to be heardwhich is a good thing without
(04:08):
listening themselves, and so Ithink that is the biggest
breakdown in our communications.
Cary (04:17):
Yeah, Not listening to really truly hear what the other
person's saying, but so thatyou can respond to what they're
saying 100%, and that is anego-driven component, right?
Mary (04:33):
So if I'm only thinking about myself what I have to say
and not what my partner or theloved one has to say, then
you're not thinking about theunion that you've created.
You're only thinking about theone part of it, and that's me.
And so that's where thecommunication breakdown comes in
.
Cary (04:51):
How do you work with couples to improve that?
Mary (04:56):
First off, I have to listen.
That's the first and foremost.
So I think as a therapist, as acouples and family therapist,
we have to model what we wantthem to see and that is going
slower following our pace.
It has to be a little bit onthe slower side so that they can
(05:17):
also calm down just the nervoussystem in itself, like you're
escalating right now.
I'm going to be quiet and I'mgoing to listen and I'm going to
show empathy to you and thatway they can say like, okay, I'm
in a safe place, now I canshare, and that.
So that's the first one.
I like to put down boundariesand expectations, what's
(05:40):
necessary for us to get throughall of this, and I do want it to
be a finite number of times,because I think that's important
, I think that's highlymotivating.
Cary (05:53):
Yeah, I think that many people go into traditional
therapy thinking that it's justgoing to be an ongoing thing,
and I find that there's a lot ofreluctance to that Well said
the team that we, that I havekind of put together.
Mary (06:16):
we all agree that it should be short term, because we
want them to take what theylearn and enjoy themselves and
their family and enjoy life.
How beautiful is that.
Right, and so that they alsoknow that they're making
progress, hopefully 100%, andthen they'll see like, oh, this
(06:38):
does work, we do love each other.
Gee, I am listening to you.
Those are all really goodthings, and you don't have to do
that in therapy all your lifein order to get there.
Cary (06:50):
Yeah, we know that divorce can be a traumatic event, not
just for couples but also theentire family system.
Can you talk a bit about howyou know the importance of
therapy for kids who are goingthrough or have gone through a
divorce?
Mary (07:10):
Yeah, I mean, it's a tragedy when a family falls
apart and the children justdon't know where to begin to
think.
A lot of times they don't knowwhat they're feeling.
Sometimes they internalize it.
So you see all kinds ofdifferent things.
You might see acting out, youmight see internalizing.
(07:32):
One of the things that we do,especially like in reunification
or family therapy, likeco-parenting is we help the
family know right away thatthere's a set of ground rules on
behavior, because at one pointyou did love each other, at one
point you wanted to start thisfamily and you have these
(07:53):
children and that's yourresponsibility first and
foremost.
And what does that look like?
Sometimes that's just reallygoing back to scratch, like how
do you behave?
And just helping the child.
We have a lot of like.
We have a trauma play therapyprogram.
That is a beautiful thing,because sometimes children can't
(08:14):
communicate with words.
So we have art and play andthat's a very helpful thing to
help their emotions kind ofreveal, and it's okay.
But a lot of it, to be honestwith you, is more co-parenting
than it is, because they need tobehave so that the child can
feel safe and secure.
Cary (08:38):
Absolutely, you know, because it comes from the
parents 100%.
Mary (08:43):
They are the models.
So, if people forget, theteachers are not our teachers,
but our parents are the firstteacher, right?
So every single thing that youdo is absorbed by your child and
they are seeing and watchingand observing every single thing
.
Cary (09:04):
Yeah, one of the probably the most common questions that I
get from people who are not yetseparated is you know how and
when to share the informationwith their children?
Do you have any tips orsuggestions on when parents
(09:27):
should share that informationwith their kids about what is
happening between you know, withthe family?
Mary (09:36):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I don't know if there's aspecific time.
However, it's what's individualto the family, but I can
guarantee you the childrenalready know.
Yeah, because you can't hidethe animosity that you have to
each other.
You know people, the kids pickit up real fast and they're very
(09:56):
sensitive to that.
So secrets are a family killerand keeping a secret longer than
it needs to be can really dodamage to a family and to the
children.
So I think you know having anhonest conversation with them
that's age appropriate is reallythe right thing to do.
Cary (10:17):
Do you generally recommend that it come from both parents
or one parent, or does it justdepend on the particular
circumstances?
Mary (10:28):
Yeah, unfortunately it does depend on the circumstances
, but in the ideal world itshould be both parents Okay,
because then you're not gettingone side and you don't, so it's
a unified voice.
Because then a child knows okay, at least they are unified in
this, and then they'll have asense of security.
(10:48):
Two different voices, it it itcause anxiety.
Cary (10:56):
We've talked about the children who may be going
through divorce, and you knowthe need for their therapy.
What about adults and parents,whether they're separating or
already divorced?
Why would you say thatindividual therapy is critical
for someone in those scenarios?
Mary (11:13):
because there is a distinct sense of loss.
No matter how you put it, nomatter what the partner may have
done to you to have led to this, or whatever the case may be,
there is a loss and a sense ofloneliness.
And how do you recover fromthat?
(11:34):
And then, even if you are theone who is leading the divorce,
there's still loss.
Right, it was an expectation ofa life together.
That's not together, and sothere's a lot of grief, there's
a lot of processing on how youfeel about it.
And I also think it's reallyimportant and this comes from
(11:56):
this discernment, counselingprocess and that is how did I
contribute to this?
What's my takeaway?
How do I grow from this?
Because I don't want to do thatagain.
I don't want to do that again.
So I think it's reallyimportant for us to kind of see
some internal insight how did Igrow, how did I contribute and
(12:19):
how do I not do that again?
Those are really importantthings to do in individual
therapy.
Cary (12:24):
So that they can go into the next relationship in a
better place 100%, you'll be abetter person for the next
person and for yourself.
Mary (12:33):
Right Ultimately, the relationship.
Cary (12:36):
Okay, you mentioned discernment counseling and that
is something that I stronglyrecommend to those individuals
who are on the cusp.
They're not quite sure ifdivorce is the way that they
want to proceed.
Or maybe it's something thatthey are considering and they're
(12:57):
not sure if their spouse isgoing to.
You know how their spouse isgoing to react.
Or they think their spouse isgoing to ask for a divorce and
they want to stay together, youknow.
So you've got two individualsthat are not necessarily aligned
with moving forward with aseparation or divorce.
Can you share because I don'tthink many people know what
(13:20):
discernment counseling is andI've talked to lots of
therapists who have never heardof discernment counseling Can
you share with our listenerswhat discernment counseling is
and how it's different from you?
Know what we kind of understandto be traditional couples
therapy?
Mary (13:38):
Yeah, great, thank you, cause you're right, I didn't
know about it until about fiveyears ago myself.
So it was created by WilliamDougherty and Stephen Harris and
I, when I, when I was doinginternship in my first period of
licensure, I was met with theleaning in and leaning out
couple and I didn't know that'swhat I was doing.
(13:59):
And it was hard and I failed.
I failed again and again andagain because I didn't know what
I was doing.
And so this discernmentcounseling was developed, and
when I read it and understood it, I was like wow, it's a game
changer.
So you know it's.
The goal is for clarity,confidence and understanding in
(14:21):
that.
Who am I?
Who am I in this relationship?
How did I contribute?
And you have a leaning in aleaning out couple person and
you have a leaning in a leaningout couple um person and you're
trying to figure out what theirstory is.
And and then how do you tellthat story to your partner?
And at the end there are threepaths status quo, uh, divorce,
(14:46):
or commitment to six months ofcouples therapy or commitment to
six months of couples therapy.
So making it the ones thatwe've worked with so far.
They never made a decision andso I don't know if it's us right
(15:07):
.
It is that difficult to make adecision.
Cary (15:09):
But I tell them, by default, you're making a
decision to path one Right, sostay in the status quo.
Mary (15:14):
Yeah, and that's, that's fine If you know how it works,
and that's fine.
And you know they, they balk atthat.
No, we're not, and I'm likeyeah, and then they come back
and then they're like okay, wehave done this differently.
Now we want couples therapy, soin a sometimes it just takes
(15:36):
time.
Cary (15:37):
Yeah, sometimes you know, it's just people have such a
difficult time making a decision, and I think that can be for a
multitude of reasons, you know.
One is simply not knowing whatthe alternative is going to look
like and being afraid of thechange.
(15:58):
Well said, you know what thestatus quo is, you're used to it
and some people are contentwith continuing that.
Mary (16:16):
Um, yeah, because sometimes change is more is
scarier well, absolutely wellsaid, and that is half the
battle, not just divorcedcouples, but a lot of therapy in
general.
It's just hard to change, buthelping someone visualize what
life would be and that's one ofthe questions in discernment
Like what does it look like foryou?
(16:38):
What might it look like?
That's a scary thought, butit's a really important thing to
look at, because when you makeany major decision, don't you
have hopes and dreams of what itwill look like?
Like when you pick a career?
Or even when you got married,you had visions of what it would
look like.
So why wouldn't you have avision of what divorce would
(17:00):
look like?
So, yeah, those are all thingsthat come out of discernment
counseling and I think it'sreally helpful.
Cary (17:06):
Yeah, and I think sometimes it's just you know
they may be leaning towardsdivorce, but they are scared to
commit to that because of theunknowns and, you know, not
taking the step to get educatedon what it might look like.
And that doesn't have to bedisastrous for you know, for
(17:32):
them and the family.
Mary (17:35):
When we have had couples think that they're going path
two.
I send them all to you, carrie.
I appreciate it.
I'm like because I think youhave a sensibility about calming
the anxiety down and getthrough this process.
It doesn't have to becontentious.
Cary (17:57):
Right and I think so many people that's all they know,
that's all they see, whetherit's on TV or movies or friends
and family that they only hearthe horror stories.
They don't hear about thescenarios where it went
relatively smoothly and everyonegot along and like life just
(18:17):
continued on in a differentformat.
Mary (18:20):
Yeah, I mean, that's what we want.
If that's going to happen,that's what we want.
Cary (18:25):
Absolutely All right.
You mentioned another termearlier, and in these scenarios,
these are the scenarios wherethings are much more contentious
.
As you know, we've workedtogether in this realm before.
You know, in my work Isometimes get appointed by the
(18:45):
court to represent childrenwhose parents are going through
a custody dispute, and manytimes in these scenarios it
could be that one parent hasbeen estranged from the child
for a multitude of reasons, andso in those situations, there
(19:07):
are many times where I amrecommending that the children
participate in something calledreunification therapy.
Can you kind of explain whatthat is and kind of the goals
for reunification therapy?
Mary (19:22):
Yeah, one of the most difficult protocols that we have
, not going to lie.
So when you have two parentslike you said, custody situation
and one parent's estranged tohave the relationship with the
(19:44):
other parent, the estrangedparent can be really important
for that child to feel a senseof wholeness again.
Unfortunately, sometimes theestranged parent, either by
their own actions, where theymaybe had some trouble or
whatever now it's time forforgiveness or you know and
(20:06):
coming back into the fold or itcould be manipulation on the
duty full parent.
It doesn't matter whatcircumstances.
The wholeness of the family isreally the key piece, and so it
is a lot of balancing betweenthe more of the adults, but
(20:26):
sometimes the child is soingrained with their sense of
what the truth is and so, again,it's not necessarily all family
members are in the room.
There's a lot of balancingaround and seeing because we
want everyone to feel safe,especially the child.
That's the first and foremostis the safety of the child.
(20:47):
We've had some good successwith that and very proud of that
, and it's a lot of hard work.
But when the parents are open toit, then great things are
happening.
Cary (21:04):
Yes, we had a very successful case, but I have had
scenarios where it is much morecomplicated and I think for me
as a as an attorney for the kidsand I would love your
perspective as the you know, thetreating therapist and what I
(21:25):
often recommend as far as likethe best case scenario for how
the process should work is boththe child having their
individual therapist, theestranged parent having their
individual therapist, and thenthere being a third
reunification therapist and thenall three of those are kind of
(21:48):
working in connection with oneanother.
Mary (21:50):
You have described our protocol.
Yeah, we have this is why we,you know an outpatient mental
health clinic.
We have a lot of resources atour disposal, which is a
beautiful thing.
So we do have a child andadolescent program where,
depending on the age of thechild, creative therapies, play
(22:11):
therapy, whatever.
Then we have our own, you know,trauma recovery center and
sometimes it might be traumarelated responses that you're
seeing, but, yeah, individual,individual.
And then the connection is thereunification therapist.
Cary (22:27):
Yeah, okay, I think you know many times what I come up
against is the a strange parentwho they they're.
They want to fast track thingsright.
They've already had a scenariowhere they've been missing out
on this child's importantmilestones and and has felt like
(22:47):
they've been left out in thedark for a lot of you know,
regardless of of the reason whyand they are often like I want
this to move very quickly and Itry to explain like that's not
always the way that that's goingto happen we have to have the
child feel prepared and readyfirst, because if you do the
(23:10):
introduction too quickly, itseems like it's going to just
set it up for failure.
Mary (23:16):
Well, 100% agree.
The child, first and foremost,has to feel safe.
Insecure because in a lot ofways they've had all of their
autonomy just stripped away fromthem between the legal system
and then therapists all of theseadults are making decisions for
them.
This is the only time wherethey get to have the autonomy
(23:39):
like when?
When will that be what I say tothe individual, the, the
estranged, estranged parent isgoing slow is going to be better
for you for everlasting.
If you go too fast, it's goingto ruin it.
And so the individual therapistjust has to help them see the
patients and how that is reallygoing to be a sustaining
(24:03):
relationship.
Cary (24:05):
Right yeah, and I think sometimes as parents, we think
of it as like them, as theirchildren not necessarily
thinking about it long term likethese are people who are going
to be adults and do you want tohave a relationship with them
after they turn 18?
Mary (24:23):
100%.
One of my favorite questions islike you know, do you think
you're going to be invited totheir wedding, right?
And if not, then how do you getin that invitation?
So, in a way, you're puttingthis main goal.
You're not living in thepresent, you're looking in the
future Again, because I don'tthink people people are afraid
(24:43):
to look into the future.
You got to have a goal, inwhich case all your actions will
lead you to that goal.
So they live a strange parentlives in the, in the moment.
Like I need them now.
I need this, my kid now, right?
They're short-sighted intoseeing what the bigger picture
is, and so that's what our jobis.
Cary (25:04):
Yeah, what do you wish more people understood about
seeking therapy during thosemajor life transitions, whether
it's separation, divorce orco-parenting challenges?
Mary (25:17):
I think that if you want a content, joyful life, you have
to sometimes admit that you needhelp and put the ego aside and
ask for help, knowing that itdoesn't have to be forever and
it's not a matter of a failurethat you're asking for help.
(25:39):
It's more strength for thatthan it is trying to keep doing
the same thing over and over andit's not.
It's not going well.
So I think you know the.
The hope that we probably give,or we try to give, is that this
is just a temporary thing.
We're here to help.
Then you're going to be on yourmerry way.
(26:00):
So we're trying to take awaythe stigma from from asking for
help.
Yeah, and so that's what we tryto do from asking for help?
Cary (26:08):
Yeah, and so that's what we try to do that there are
people to assist, and hopefullythey gave you the tools so that
you can do it on your own for along time 100% without
therapists.
Mary (26:23):
But even then, if something tragic happens or
something else happens, it'sokay to go back, right?
But yeah, we're here to helpnot be part of your family
forever.
Cary (26:39):
What advice would you give to parents who may be feeling
overwhelmed and aren't surewhere to start when it comes to
getting help for their family?
Mary (26:49):
Well, one of the things that I think I see more often
than not is that you have torealize you're the model to your
you know.
So when we've got people comingin and saying my child
disrespects me, you have tomodel respect right, and you
have to learn how to take careof yourself, and so you're not
(27:10):
always a reactive parent, andyou have to have a set of rules
and boundaries that you live by.
And children thrive in rulesand boundaries, and if you don't
set them, you will have chaos.
And so when you're in the midstof chaos asking for help, it
(27:32):
will just lighten your load somuch.
But you can't resist the helpyou have to ask and you have to
be vulnerable to accept it andnot resist it.
Because I think that also getsin the way, carrie, where people
ask for help but they say, well, I already did that or I tried.
That also gets in the way,carrie, where people ask for
help but they say, well, Ialready did that or I tried that
, or da, da, da, and so thatmeans they're not really open to
(27:54):
hearing new things, even ifthey're old things.
Maybe they didn't try it longenough, or whatever the case
would be.
Anyway, just being open to thechange, yeah.
Cary (28:07):
All right.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Where can people learn moreabout you and MPB Group and the
services that you provide?
Families?
Mary (28:17):
Thank you.
We have a website, mpbhealthorg, or is it com?
Whoops, I think it's com.
Oh yeah, yeah, and then, yeah,our website's the best place.
Yeah, I think it'scom.
Cary (28:33):
Awesome, and we'll make sure to link it in the show
notes.
Mary (28:35):
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Cary (28:37):
Thank you so much for sharing your expertise, your
passion and your powerfulperspective with us today.
It's clear that your work withhelping so many families not
just survive difficulttransitions but truly heal and
grow.
If you'd like to learn moreabout mary and the couples and
families institute will havethose links in the show notes.
Whether you're a parent, aprofessional or just someone
(29:00):
curious about building healthierfamily systems, there's so much
to explore.
And, to our listeners, thankyou for tuning in to divorce
diaries.
Don't forget to subscribe,leave a review and share this
episode with anyone who mightneed it.
Until next time, I'm your host,carrie jacobson.
Intro/Close (29:16):
Thank you thanks for joining us today on this
episode of divorce diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
(29:36):
and guidance.
So if I'm only thinking about myself what I have to say
and not what my partner or theloved one has to say, then
you're not thinking about theunion that you've created.
You're only thinking about theone part of it, and that's me.
And so that's where thecommunication breakdown comes in
.
Intro/Close (00:20):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Keri
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law, whether you're
going through it, considering itor just curious this is your
(00:42):
place for clarity, confidenceand resilience.
Cary (00:46):
Hi everyone, welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from
the Trenches.
I'm your host, keri Jacobson,and in this podcast we dig into
the real issues, the hardlessons and smart strategies to
help you navigate divorce withless drama and more clarity.
Today, I'm thrilled to bejoined by someone whose work
truly embodies the heart offamily healing, by someone whose
work truly embodies the heartof family healing.
(01:07):
Mary Blackwood is a licensedclinical marriage and family
therapist and the executiveoperations director and program
director of the Couples andFamily Institute, which she
founded in 2018.
Her journey from intern tovisionary leader at MPB Group
Incorporated is so inspiring.
She has spent over a decadehelping couples and families
(01:28):
find their footing again, andshe's especially known for her
work with adoption, foster careand guardianship families.
Under her leadership, mpb Groupbecame the Adoption Competency
Agency and she continues tobring systemic, trauma-informed
and forward-thinking practicesto her team.
Mary, thank you so much forbeing here.
Mary (01:49):
Thank you, carrie for having me.
Cary (01:52):
So can you tell our listeners a little bit about
your why?
What has led you to dedicateyour career to helping families
and couples heal?
Mary (02:03):
Great question.
I think one of the things thatI think is really important is
life is short and we should gothrough life with as much
contentment and love and joy aspossible, and sometimes things
get in the way.
A trauma event, just life way.
(02:29):
A trauma event, just life.
Human development in itself isin transitioning from teenager
to launching adult, findingsomeone getting married and then
all of a sudden you discoverthey weren't really the person
that you thought, or you grewapart or whatever.
Those are all normal kind ofparts of our lives.
Sometimes we just need somebodyto help navigate that with us,
and that's where family therapyand couples therapy comes in.
(02:51):
And so, yeah, it's rewarding,frustrating at times, for sure,
but more times rewarding thannot.
Cary (03:01):
Yes, so you've built this program that incorporates
everything from premaritalcounseling to trauma-informed
family therapy.
What do you see as the mostcommon breakdowns in
communication that bringscouples into therapy?
Mary (03:20):
The number one is listening to reply versus
listening to absorb.
Willing the good of the otherfor the other is lacking.
I think the definition of lovehas been kind of I don't know
(03:42):
I'm not thinking of the word Iwant to use but the true sense
of love is willing the good ofthe other for the other, and so
if I'm willing, that, that meansI'm listening to you.
Right, I want to hear what youhave to say and I trust that you
want to do the same, and Ithink everything is reactionary
and everyone wants to be heardwhich is a good thing without
(04:08):
listening themselves, and so Ithink that is the biggest
breakdown in our communications.
Cary (04:17):
Yeah, Not listening to really truly hear what the other
person's saying, but so thatyou can respond to what they're
saying 100%, and that is anego-driven component, right?
Mary (04:33):
So if I'm only thinking about myself what I have to say
and not what my partner or theloved one has to say, then
you're not thinking about theunion that you've created.
You're only thinking about theone part of it, and that's me.
And so that's where thecommunication breakdown comes in
.
Cary (04:51):
How do you work with couples to improve that?
Mary (04:56):
First off, I have to listen.
That's the first and foremost.
So I think as a therapist, as acouples and family therapist,
we have to model what we wantthem to see and that is going
slower following our pace.
It has to be a little bit onthe slower side so that they can
(05:17):
also calm down just the nervoussystem in itself, like you're
escalating right now.
I'm going to be quiet and I'mgoing to listen and I'm going to
show empathy to you and thatway they can say like, okay, I'm
in a safe place, now I canshare, and that.
So that's the first one.
I like to put down boundariesand expectations, what's
(05:40):
necessary for us to get throughall of this, and I do want it to
be a finite number of times,because I think that's important
, I think that's highlymotivating.
Cary (05:53):
Yeah, I think that many people go into traditional
therapy thinking that it's justgoing to be an ongoing thing,
and I find that there's a lot ofreluctance to that Well said
the team that we, that I havekind of put together.
Mary (06:16):
we all agree that it should be short term, because we
want them to take what theylearn and enjoy themselves and
their family and enjoy life.
How beautiful is that.
Right, and so that they alsoknow that they're making
progress, hopefully 100%, andthen they'll see like, oh, this
(06:38):
does work, we do love each other.
Gee, I am listening to you.
Those are all really goodthings, and you don't have to do
that in therapy all your lifein order to get there.
Cary (06:50):
Yeah, we know that divorce can be a traumatic event, not
just for couples but also theentire family system.
Can you talk a bit about howyou know the importance of
therapy for kids who are goingthrough or have gone through a
divorce?
Mary (07:10):
Yeah, I mean, it's a tragedy when a family falls
apart and the children justdon't know where to begin to
think.
A lot of times they don't knowwhat they're feeling.
Sometimes they internalize it.
So you see all kinds ofdifferent things.
You might see acting out, youmight see internalizing.
(07:32):
One of the things that we do,especially like in reunification
or family therapy, likeco-parenting is we help the
family know right away thatthere's a set of ground rules on
behavior, because at one pointyou did love each other, at one
point you wanted to start thisfamily and you have these
(07:53):
children and that's yourresponsibility first and
foremost.
And what does that look like?
Sometimes that's just reallygoing back to scratch, like how
do you behave?
And just helping the child.
We have a lot of like.
We have a trauma play therapyprogram.
That is a beautiful thing,because sometimes children can't
(08:14):
communicate with words.
So we have art and play andthat's a very helpful thing to
help their emotions kind ofreveal, and it's okay.
But a lot of it, to be honestwith you, is more co-parenting
than it is, because they need tobehave so that the child can
feel safe and secure.
Cary (08:38):
Absolutely, you know, because it comes from the
parents 100%.
Mary (08:43):
They are the models.
So, if people forget, theteachers are not our teachers,
but our parents are the firstteacher, right?
So every single thing that youdo is absorbed by your child and
they are seeing and watchingand observing every single thing
.
Cary (09:04):
Yeah, one of the probably the most common questions that I
get from people who are not yetseparated is you know how and
when to share the informationwith their children?
Do you have any tips orsuggestions on when parents
(09:27):
should share that informationwith their kids about what is
happening between you know, withthe family?
Mary (09:36):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I don't know if there's aspecific time.
However, it's what's individualto the family, but I can
guarantee you the childrenalready know.
Yeah, because you can't hidethe animosity that you have to
each other.
You know people, the kids pickit up real fast and they're very
(09:56):
sensitive to that.
So secrets are a family killerand keeping a secret longer than
it needs to be can really dodamage to a family and to the
children.
So I think you know having anhonest conversation with them
that's age appropriate is reallythe right thing to do.
Cary (10:17):
Do you generally recommend that it come from both parents
or one parent, or does it justdepend on the particular
circumstances?
Mary (10:28):
Yeah, unfortunately it does depend on the circumstances
, but in the ideal world itshould be both parents Okay,
because then you're not gettingone side and you don't, so it's
a unified voice.
Because then a child knows okay, at least they are unified in
this, and then they'll have asense of security.
(10:48):
Two different voices, it it itcause anxiety.
Cary (10:56):
We've talked about the children who may be going
through divorce, and you knowthe need for their therapy.
What about adults and parents,whether they're separating or
already divorced?
Why would you say thatindividual therapy is critical
for someone in those scenarios?
Mary (11:13):
because there is a distinct sense of loss.
No matter how you put it, nomatter what the partner may have
done to you to have led to this, or whatever the case may be,
there is a loss and a sense ofloneliness.
And how do you recover fromthat?
(11:34):
And then, even if you are theone who is leading the divorce,
there's still loss.
Right, it was an expectation ofa life together.
That's not together, and sothere's a lot of grief, there's
a lot of processing on how youfeel about it.
And I also think it's reallyimportant and this comes from
(11:56):
this discernment, counselingprocess and that is how did I
contribute to this?
What's my takeaway?
How do I grow from this?
Because I don't want to do thatagain.
I don't want to do that again.
So I think it's reallyimportant for us to kind of see
some internal insight how did Igrow, how did I contribute and
(12:19):
how do I not do that again?
Those are really importantthings to do in individual
therapy.
Cary (12:24):
So that they can go into the next relationship in a
better place 100%, you'll be abetter person for the next
person and for yourself.
Mary (12:33):
Right Ultimately, the relationship.
Cary (12:36):
Okay, you mentioned discernment counseling and that
is something that I stronglyrecommend to those individuals
who are on the cusp.
They're not quite sure ifdivorce is the way that they
want to proceed.
Or maybe it's something thatthey are considering and they're
(12:57):
not sure if their spouse isgoing to.
You know how their spouse isgoing to react.
Or they think their spouse isgoing to ask for a divorce and
they want to stay together, youknow.
So you've got two individualsthat are not necessarily aligned
with moving forward with aseparation or divorce.
Can you share because I don'tthink many people know what
(13:20):
discernment counseling is andI've talked to lots of
therapists who have never heardof discernment counseling Can
you share with our listenerswhat discernment counseling is
and how it's different from you?
Know what we kind of understandto be traditional couples
therapy?
Mary (13:38):
Yeah, great, thank you, cause you're right, I didn't
know about it until about fiveyears ago myself.
So it was created by WilliamDougherty and Stephen Harris and
I, when I, when I was doinginternship in my first period of
licensure, I was met with theleaning in and leaning out
couple and I didn't know that'swhat I was doing.
(13:59):
And it was hard and I failed.
I failed again and again andagain because I didn't know what
I was doing.
And so this discernmentcounseling was developed, and
when I read it and understood it, I was like wow, it's a game
changer.
So you know it's.
The goal is for clarity,confidence and understanding in
(14:21):
that.
Who am I?
Who am I in this relationship?
How did I contribute?
And you have a leaning in aleaning out couple person and
you have a leaning in a leaningout couple um person and you're
trying to figure out what theirstory is.
And and then how do you tellthat story to your partner?
And at the end there are threepaths status quo, uh, divorce,
(14:46):
or commitment to six months ofcouples therapy or commitment to
six months of couples therapy.
So making it the ones thatwe've worked with so far.
They never made a decision andso I don't know if it's us right
(15:07):
.
It is that difficult to make adecision.
Cary (15:09):
But I tell them, by default, you're making a
decision to path one Right, sostay in the status quo.
Mary (15:14):
Yeah, and that's, that's fine If you know how it works,
and that's fine.
And you know they, they balk atthat.
No, we're not, and I'm likeyeah, and then they come back
and then they're like okay, wehave done this differently.
Now we want couples therapy, soin a sometimes it just takes
(15:36):
time.
Cary (15:37):
Yeah, sometimes you know, it's just people have such a
difficult time making a decision, and I think that can be for a
multitude of reasons, you know.
One is simply not knowing whatthe alternative is going to look
like and being afraid of thechange.
(15:58):
Well said, you know what thestatus quo is, you're used to it
and some people are contentwith continuing that.
Mary (16:16):
Um, yeah, because sometimes change is more is
scarier well, absolutely wellsaid, and that is half the
battle, not just divorcedcouples, but a lot of therapy in
general.
It's just hard to change, buthelping someone visualize what
life would be and that's one ofthe questions in discernment
Like what does it look like foryou?
(16:38):
What might it look like?
That's a scary thought, butit's a really important thing to
look at, because when you makeany major decision, don't you
have hopes and dreams of what itwill look like?
Like when you pick a career?
Or even when you got married,you had visions of what it would
look like.
So why wouldn't you have avision of what divorce would
(17:00):
look like?
So, yeah, those are all thingsthat come out of discernment
counseling and I think it'sreally helpful.
Cary (17:06):
Yeah, and I think sometimes it's just you know
they may be leaning towardsdivorce, but they are scared to
commit to that because of theunknowns and, you know, not
taking the step to get educatedon what it might look like.
And that doesn't have to bedisastrous for you know, for
(17:32):
them and the family.
Mary (17:35):
When we have had couples think that they're going path
two.
I send them all to you, carrie.
I appreciate it.
I'm like because I think youhave a sensibility about calming
the anxiety down and getthrough this process.
It doesn't have to becontentious.
Cary (17:57):
Right and I think so many people that's all they know,
that's all they see, whetherit's on TV or movies or friends
and family that they only hearthe horror stories.
They don't hear about thescenarios where it went
relatively smoothly and everyonegot along and like life just
(18:17):
continued on in a differentformat.
Mary (18:20):
Yeah, I mean, that's what we want.
If that's going to happen,that's what we want.
Cary (18:25):
Absolutely All right.
You mentioned another termearlier, and in these scenarios,
these are the scenarios wherethings are much more contentious
.
As you know, we've workedtogether in this realm before.
You know, in my work Isometimes get appointed by the
(18:45):
court to represent childrenwhose parents are going through
a custody dispute, and manytimes in these scenarios it
could be that one parent hasbeen estranged from the child
for a multitude of reasons, andso in those situations, there
(19:07):
are many times where I amrecommending that the children
participate in something calledreunification therapy.
Can you kind of explain whatthat is and kind of the goals
for reunification therapy?
Mary (19:22):
Yeah, one of the most difficult protocols that we have
, not going to lie.
So when you have two parentslike you said, custody situation
and one parent's estranged tohave the relationship with the
(19:44):
other parent, the estrangedparent can be really important
for that child to feel a senseof wholeness again.
Unfortunately, sometimes theestranged parent, either by
their own actions, where theymaybe had some trouble or
whatever now it's time forforgiveness or you know and
(20:06):
coming back into the fold or itcould be manipulation on the
duty full parent.
It doesn't matter whatcircumstances.
The wholeness of the family isreally the key piece, and so it
is a lot of balancing betweenthe more of the adults, but
(20:26):
sometimes the child is soingrained with their sense of
what the truth is and so, again,it's not necessarily all family
members are in the room.
There's a lot of balancingaround and seeing because we
want everyone to feel safe,especially the child.
That's the first and foremostis the safety of the child.
(20:47):
We've had some good successwith that and very proud of that
, and it's a lot of hard work.
But when the parents are open toit, then great things are
happening.
Cary (21:04):
Yes, we had a very successful case, but I have had
scenarios where it is much morecomplicated and I think for me
as a as an attorney for the kidsand I would love your
perspective as the you know, thetreating therapist and what I
(21:25):
often recommend as far as likethe best case scenario for how
the process should work is boththe child having their
individual therapist, theestranged parent having their
individual therapist, and thenthere being a third
reunification therapist and thenall three of those are kind of
(21:48):
working in connection with oneanother.
Mary (21:50):
You have described our protocol.
Yeah, we have this is why we,you know an outpatient mental
health clinic.
We have a lot of resources atour disposal, which is a
beautiful thing.
So we do have a child andadolescent program where,
depending on the age of thechild, creative therapies, play
(22:11):
therapy, whatever.
Then we have our own, you know,trauma recovery center and
sometimes it might be traumarelated responses that you're
seeing, but, yeah, individual,individual.
And then the connection is thereunification therapist.
Cary (22:27):
Yeah, okay, I think you know many times what I come up
against is the a strange parentwho they they're.
They want to fast track thingsright.
They've already had a scenariowhere they've been missing out
on this child's importantmilestones and and has felt like
(22:47):
they've been left out in thedark for a lot of you know,
regardless of of the reason whyand they are often like I want
this to move very quickly and Itry to explain like that's not
always the way that that's goingto happen we have to have the
child feel prepared and readyfirst, because if you do the
(23:10):
introduction too quickly, itseems like it's going to just
set it up for failure.
Mary (23:16):
Well, 100% agree.
The child, first and foremost,has to feel safe.
Insecure because in a lot ofways they've had all of their
autonomy just stripped away fromthem between the legal system
and then therapists all of theseadults are making decisions for
them.
This is the only time wherethey get to have the autonomy
(23:39):
like when?
When will that be what I say tothe individual, the, the
estranged, estranged parent isgoing slow is going to be better
for you for everlasting.
If you go too fast, it's goingto ruin it.
And so the individual therapistjust has to help them see the
patients and how that is reallygoing to be a sustaining
(24:03):
relationship.
Cary (24:05):
Right yeah, and I think sometimes as parents, we think
of it as like them, as theirchildren not necessarily
thinking about it long term likethese are people who are going
to be adults and do you want tohave a relationship with them
after they turn 18?
Mary (24:23):
100%.
One of my favorite questions islike you know, do you think
you're going to be invited totheir wedding, right?
And if not, then how do you getin that invitation?
So, in a way, you're puttingthis main goal.
You're not living in thepresent, you're looking in the
future Again, because I don'tthink people people are afraid
(24:43):
to look into the future.
You got to have a goal, inwhich case all your actions will
lead you to that goal.
So they live a strange parentlives in the, in the moment.
Like I need them now.
I need this, my kid now, right?
They're short-sighted intoseeing what the bigger picture
is, and so that's what our jobis.
Cary (25:04):
Yeah, what do you wish more people understood about
seeking therapy during thosemajor life transitions, whether
it's separation, divorce orco-parenting challenges?
Mary (25:17):
I think that if you want a content, joyful life, you have
to sometimes admit that you needhelp and put the ego aside and
ask for help, knowing that itdoesn't have to be forever and
it's not a matter of a failurethat you're asking for help.
(25:39):
It's more strength for thatthan it is trying to keep doing
the same thing over and over andit's not.
It's not going well.
So I think you know the.
The hope that we probably give,or we try to give, is that this
is just a temporary thing.
We're here to help.
Then you're going to be on yourmerry way.
(26:00):
So we're trying to take awaythe stigma from from asking for
help.
Yeah, and so that's what we tryto do from asking for help?
Cary (26:08):
Yeah, and so that's what we try to do that there are
people to assist, and hopefullythey gave you the tools so that
you can do it on your own for along time 100% without
therapists.
Mary (26:23):
But even then, if something tragic happens or
something else happens, it'sokay to go back, right?
But yeah, we're here to helpnot be part of your family
forever.
Cary (26:39):
What advice would you give to parents who may be feeling
overwhelmed and aren't surewhere to start when it comes to
getting help for their family?
Mary (26:49):
Well, one of the things that I think I see more often
than not is that you have torealize you're the model to your
you know.
So when we've got people comingin and saying my child
disrespects me, you have tomodel respect right, and you
have to learn how to take careof yourself, and so you're not
(27:10):
always a reactive parent, andyou have to have a set of rules
and boundaries that you live by.
And children thrive in rulesand boundaries, and if you don't
set them, you will have chaos.
And so when you're in the midstof chaos asking for help, it
(27:32):
will just lighten your load somuch.
But you can't resist the helpyou have to ask and you have to
be vulnerable to accept it andnot resist it.
Because I think that also getsin the way, carrie, where people
ask for help but they say, well, I already did that or I tried.
That also gets in the way,carrie, where people ask for
help but they say, well, Ialready did that or I tried that
, or da, da, da, and so thatmeans they're not really open to
(27:54):
hearing new things, even ifthey're old things.
Maybe they didn't try it longenough, or whatever the case
would be.
Anyway, just being open to thechange, yeah.
Cary (28:07):
All right.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Where can people learn moreabout you and MPB Group and the
services that you provide?
Families?
Mary (28:17):
Thank you.
We have a website, mpbhealthorg, or is it com?
Whoops, I think it's com.
Oh yeah, yeah, and then, yeah,our website's the best place.
Yeah, I think it'scom.
Cary (28:33):
Awesome, and we'll make sure to link it in the show
notes.
Mary (28:35):
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Cary (28:37):
Thank you so much for sharing your expertise, your
passion and your powerfulperspective with us today.
It's clear that your work withhelping so many families not
just survive difficulttransitions but truly heal and
grow.
If you'd like to learn moreabout mary and the couples and
families institute will havethose links in the show notes.
Whether you're a parent, aprofessional or just someone
(29:00):
curious about building healthierfamily systems, there's so much
to explore.
And, to our listeners, thankyou for tuning in to divorce
diaries.
Don't forget to subscribe,leave a review and share this
episode with anyone who mightneed it.
Until next time, I'm your host,carrie jacobson.
Intro/Close (29:16):
Thank you thanks for joining us today on this
episode of divorce diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
(29:36):
and guidance.
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