Frances Shefter, education attorney and former special education teacher, shares how parents can effectively advocate for their special needs children during and after divorce. Her unique experience on both sides of the IEP table helps create what she calls a "stress-free IEP experience" for families navigating complex educational systems during family transitions.
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Episode Transcript
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Frances Schefter (00:00):
I'm not just some attorney coming in trying
to tell you how to do your job.
I'm an attorney that used to doyour job and anything I'm
asking for.
I don't go in demanding thatevery child goes to a non-public
placement because that's notrealistic.
You know, I come in asking forrealistic things and always have
(00:20):
the support because I know howto read the IEPs.
I know how to read the IEPs, Iknow how to read the history.
I know how to read thepsychological reports and pull
what we need to get what myclients want for their child.
Intro/Close (00:34):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where Cary Jacobson
brings you real stories, hardtruths and practical advice on
navigating divorce and familylaw.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:57):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, the podcast, where wedive deep into complex world of
divorce, co-parenting andeverything in between, giving
you tools to navigate the life'stoughest transitions with more
confidence and less chaos.
I'm your Cary Jacobson, andtoday we're talking about
something that's incrediblyimportant for parents of
(01:18):
children with special needs howto advocate for your child's
education during and after adivorce.
Joining me today is FrancesSchefter, an education attorney
and advocate, who has dedicatedher life to helping families
ensure that children get thesupport that they need.
At school, Frances started hercareer in the classroom as a
(01:40):
teacher, became a specialeducation coordinator and
ultimately realized she can makea bigger impact through the
legal system.
After earning her law degreewith a concentration in advocacy
, she founded Schefter Law,where she and her team help
families have a stress-free IEPexperience.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Frances, forjoining us today.
Frances Schefter (02:03):
Thank you, Carrie, and thank you for having
me.
Cary Jacobson (02:06):
Absolutely.
It's good to see you.
It's been a while since we'veconnected, I know I'd love for
you to start by telling ourlisteners, kind of you know from
the beginning, what inspiredyou to transition from teaching
to becoming an attorney, helpingchildren in education to
becoming an attorney helpingchildren in education.
Frances Schefter (02:26):
So you know, I had been a teacher for I mean,
that was my whole career at thebeginning and I loved teaching,
I loved the kids.
But it's not about the kids.
And it's not about teachingbecause there's all the other
background stuff going on.
And I was at an elementaryschool, it was fabulous.
And then I moved counties to analternative middle and high
(02:49):
school and like I loved the kids, but again it wasn't about the
kids.
Like, put me in a classroomwith my children and let me do
my thing, I'll be fine.
But that reality check itdoesn't happen.
And you know, my story is alittle funny because I never
said I'm going to go to lawschool.
I kind of said I'm going totake the LSATs and see what
happens.
And then you know, and then myfriends like, oh well, you have
(03:11):
to take Kaplan.
All right, fine, I'll takeKaplan.
And you know the series ofevents.
And then all of a sudden I getthis acceptance letter.
Cary Jacobson (03:18):
I'm like I'm going to law school.
Frances Schefter (03:22):
You know, kind of one of those.
And then of course it madesense to combine my two careers
because you know I bringsomething different to the IEP
table as an attorney, becauseI've been on the other side,
I've been the regular teacher,I've been the special ed teacher
, I've been the coordinator,I've also been the mom and now
the attorney as well.
(03:42):
So it definitely bringssomething different to the table
for everyone.
Cary Jacobson (03:47):
And how does all of those experiences combined
help you advocate for yourclients and their kids?
Frances Schefter (03:57):
So it helps me because I'm never at Well.
I should say I'm neveradversarial, I never start
adversarial.
You know, I go in and I Iconnect with the teachers, I
speak their language and I'lltell them, like usually at the
beginning, if they don't know me, I'll tell them my background
and just to be like you knowwhat, I'm not just some attorney
(04:19):
coming in trying to tell youhow to do your job.
I'm an attorney that used to doyour job and to tell you how to
do your job.
I'm an attorney that used to doyour job and and I, you know
anything I'm asking for.
I don't go in demanding thatevery child goes to a non-public
placement, because that's notrealistic.
You know, I I come in askingfor realistic things and always
have the support, because I knowhow to read the IEPs, I know
(04:42):
how to read the history, I knowhow to read the psychological
reports and pull what we need toget what my clients want for
their child.
Cary Jacobson (04:50):
That makes a lot of sense.
And do you find that theteachers have a different
reception to you because you'vebeen on their side?
Frances Schefter (05:04):
you've been on their side, definitely A
hundred percent.
I see there's been so manytimes I've been in IEP meetings,
or even whether they're virtualor when they were in person,
and once I say my background,everybody just kind of like, you
see the sigh of relief, right,you know, because you know, and
we all have our own styles asattorneys, as you know.
But there's no reason to startout adversarial, you know, like,
yeah, there's a reason ourclient hired us because they're
(05:28):
not getting their voice across.
But as an attorney, we canstill come in to get our clients
voice across and they'll listento us more, but in a respectful
way.
That's not like I'll never say,well, you, teacher, aren't
doing this.
I'll be like, well, I'm sureyou're doing it in the classroom
, let's get.
Let's pull it out, like whatexactly do you do here?
(05:49):
And now let's get it in the IEP, right, which is always, you
know, like when you come inaccusing somebody, they're not
going to take it.
Cary Jacobson (05:57):
Absolutely.
Now I know you coined thephrase stress-free IEP.
Can you explain to ourlisteners what that is and how
your firm helps the parentsthrough what is so often that
stressful process?
Frances Schefter (06:13):
Yes, definitely.
A lot of people are likethere's no such thing as a
stress-free IEP.
I'm like I get it 100%.
Look, I stress at my owndaughter's I's meetings.
But where it came from is thatwe take the stress for you and
that's the hope.
You know my team and I, weunderstand what's going on, we
(06:35):
know it.
We're that extra pair of earsfor you so that you, as the
parent, can just be the parent.
You don't have to worry aboutit.
What we like to tell all of ourclients at the IEP meeting
before the IEP meetings werelike look at the IEP meeting,
say whatever you feel.
However you want to do it, it'sall good.
There's nothing you can say inan IEP meeting that we can't say
(06:57):
.
What my client is trying to sayis and put it in that
terminology that we need.
So it's just, it's, it's.
You don't have to stress, wewill stress for you.
We've got you, we've got yourback and and it's, it's just
calming to know that I don'thave to remember everything and
I don't have, you know, as aparent.
Intro/Close (07:18):
I don't have to remember everything.
I don't have to listen toeverything.
Frances Schefter (07:20):
I don't have to ask all the questions, like
somebody else is there, sothat's.
That's what it's about.
Cary Jacobson (07:29):
Now, as you know, so many of our listeners are
going through, or have gonethrough, a divorce or a
separation, and some of themhave you know, so many of our
listeners are going through, orhave gone through, a divorce or
a separation, and some of themhave, you know, children who
have special needs.
How can a divorce or separationimpact a child's IEP or 504
plan?
Frances Schefter (07:50):
So directly it doesn't, but indirectly
obviously it does.
So directly it doesn't, butindirectly obviously it does
Both parents still maintaineducational decision-making
(08:12):
rights, unless for some reasonthere or just you know, as an
agreement in itself to make sureyou have that one has decision,
decision making hastie-breaking authority.
Because what happens is if youhave two parents that are coming
in and both have 50, 50 inlegal rights and they completely
(08:32):
disagree, right, what do you do?
You, you know the school is notgoing to pick one over the
other.
The school is just kind ofgoing to be like I'm out, you
know what else to do.
So that's something that'simportant that you make sure
that one one has decision-making, because or talk through what
you guys want for the kid inadvance, so that you're in that
(08:55):
place, that you don't have thedisagreement.
You know that's one thing.
And then the other thing is tothink about before getting
divorced is your residency Right, and that's?
I've had that issue often withenrollment in the school system,
because if one moves to anothercounty you know there could be
that issue there.
So it's just those things tothink about.
(09:18):
Like, I know divorce is hardand you're not in that
co-parenting mindset always, butyou got to think about it.
You got to put your child firstand really think about what do
we want for our childeducationally?
Cary Jacobson (09:32):
you know Right, what do we want for our child
educationally?
You know Right, and just forour listeners, it is possible to
have tie-breaking authorityjust on one particular issue
such as education, or to specifythat if you have joint legal
custody and you can't come to anagreement, that they can come
(09:53):
back to mediation to try toresolve that particular issue
before something else is dealtwith.
And the 50-50, you know,physical custody is something
that I have dealt with as well.
When you've got parents thatmove, you know, after you've
separated, and unless youspecify where the child is going
(10:15):
to go to school, it can be abattle of which which
jurisdiction the child is goingto enroll in.
Frances Schefter (10:23):
Right, exactly , and especially if they're in
different counties or evendifferent states.
It's challenging because I'vehad situations where the schools
have said, well, wait a minute,they don't live in our district
anymore, they can't attendschool here anymore.
When it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.
Parents are separated, one isliving in DC and one is living
(10:44):
in Maryland.
Here's all the proof.
The child bounces back andforth, you know, like, depending
, they're co-parenting nicelytogether.
Here's all the documentationthat they're still maintaining
the Bethesda address or the youknow the Maryland address.
And he, you know, and this iswhy.
And so you provide all thatproof.
And then the school system'slike oh, okay, but it's one of
(11:05):
those things that you have toknow in advance, to remember
that you might have to prove itagain.
Cary Jacobson (11:11):
Right and it is a simple thing to include in an
agreement.
You know if, if this is goingto become an issue, simply
saying you know the parties orthe parents agree that the child
is going to continue to beenrolled in schools in X County,
um, so that there aren't issuesor disputes about it later.
Frances Schefter (11:33):
Right, yeah, and that, and it's so important
because you know some countiesare, you know all counties have
their own little special waysand what they want.
And you know, a lot of times,like I mean I've had it even in
the same county that parents youknow one is at one address and
one is at the other address indifferent schools, in boundary
(11:53):
schools, and which you know.
Thankfully in that situationboth parents agreed on that
stuff, so it wasn't a big deal.
But I've also had situationswhere you know mom has one
attorney and dad has anotherattorney.
We got the two educationattorneys kind of litigating
together.
It's a little weird because youknow it just to me.
(12:14):
I don't want to say it's awaste of family resources, but
it kind of is like you guys needto get on the same page here.
I know you don't get alongwhatever, but don't put the kids
in the middle, you know.
Cary Jacobson (12:26):
And that's something that we really do try
to work with our clients on, tothe extent that that is possible
, for sure.
Do the schools handle IEPmeetings any differently when
the parents are divorced or arein conflict about their
children's names?
I've had.
Frances Schefter (12:45):
So they're the annual review.
Iep meeting is the annualreview I have always had
difficulty with they're notalways notifying both parents,
but they have to.
Legally, the problem is theirsystem is not set up to have
like two different primaries,but in general they don't teach,
(13:06):
they don't hold themdifferently, they still do the
same.
I have had them have separatemeetings because of parents that
couldn't be in the same room.
Um, and then the problem is islike, if there are disagreements
generally there haven't been,so it's not but schools aren't
gonna, they're not going to getinvolved.
You know they're gonna be likego back, go back to your lawyer.
(13:29):
You know like this is, this isthe court order.
Their legal is going to advisethem.
Like you got to treat them boththe same, um, so they, they
don't.
Um, it's always interestingwhen you have two divorced
parents that start fighting inthe middle of the night and it's
like you know, um, but you knowthe school, the school is going
(13:52):
to focus on what's importantfor the child and what's best
for the child, or at least whatthey think it is.
Cary Jacobson (13:56):
So things should not change just because there's
a divorce that we talked aboutbefore having a tie breaking,
you know, and putting in in theagreement which county is going
(14:21):
to be the the jurisdiction thatthe kids are going to
participate in?
Any other like tips on how tokeep the kids out of the middle
of such a already stressfulsituation?
Frances Schefter (14:32):
Yeah, that's a million dollar question for
everything, right, like I mean,it's remember that to focus on
the child.
You know if you need to, ifyou're both disagreeing, agree
to maybe hire an educationalconsultant.
Agree to maybe go to someonelike I know someone that used to
(14:53):
be a well, he's a mediatorstill.
To maybe go to someone like Iknow someone that used to be a
well, he's a mediator still.
But he also just gives a placefor parents to talk so they can
talk through what's going on andnot necessarily help you decide
what's better, but help you leteach other be heard and gives
you that platform, whereas aneducational consultant or an
advocate could help, likelooking at the documents and
(15:14):
being like, look, I agree withmom or I agree with dad, Like
this is what I see and can helpyou make that decision that way,
because the last thing our kidsneed is our parents fighting
and being stuck in the middle ofwhat's right, and I know it's
hard, emotions are high, butit's like at least for this
(15:35):
little minute, let's puteverything else aside and talk
about our child and what's bestfor our child, especially
because it impacts the child'soverall school experience and
how they're able to thrive inthat environment.
(16:02):
No-transcript.
Cary Jacobson (16:09):
Yeah, let's talk about legal protections, common
mistakes or misconceptions thatparents make when they are
advocating for their child'seducation, especially, you know,
during a situation where theymay be separating or divorcing.
Frances Schefter (16:24):
I mean the common mistakes that parents
make is they and I don't want tosay they trust the school is a
mistake, but but they, they putit all in.
The teachers know best, theyknow what they're talking about,
they know what's available.
I always say educate yourself.
Education is power to know.
I also say that when parentsdon't trust their gut, that is
(16:48):
such a big mistake.
Like we know, moms and dadsknow we get that feeling and
something's not right.
Guess what?
99.9% that feeling andsomething's not right.
Guess what?
99.9% of the time something'snot right.
You know, and so research, youknow, google, whatever it is
find what's best for your childand also remember that you're
(17:09):
just as important as everybodyelse at that table.
You know you know your childbest everybody else.
Yeah, they might have degreesand all that other stuff, but
they haven't been with the childsince birth.
They haven't seen that, and soit's.
It's trust yourself and youknow give, give yourself grace
and give yourself the space tobe able to assert what you want
(17:30):
for your child.
You know what you want for yourchild.
You know um is is the biggestthing.
Cary Jacobson (17:43):
Are there any professionals that you regularly
recommend um parents to consultwith, whether it's, um you know
, advocates such as yourself, or, if it is mental health
providers, anything along thoselines that you recommend to your
clients, or does it just kindof depend on the particular
situation?
Frances Schefter (18:03):
No, I definitely have ones that I've
used before, like for when we'regetting to the point of due
process.
I use Weinfeld Group a lot outin Maryland and their advocates
to be the expert witnesses whenit comes to testing.
You know Ken Stefano, rebeccaResnick, ryan Hinoja I always
(18:25):
get his name wrong.
You know there's a lot ofpeople that I'll recommend that
I like because their reports arethorough.
Stixrud Group you know theperson I was mentioning before,
the mediator that really givesthe space, and what's great
about him is he's a father ofthree Doroid adverse kids, so he
lives it too, as that's EricFeig with Feig Mediation.
(18:46):
Yeah, he's great.
You know there are differentsome.
What I do just to let yourlisteners know is like, if they
want, if they're like, hey, weneed a physical therapist or an
occupational therapist, they cancall my office and whoever they
talk to, whether Shane or Kevin, they can run a report and send
them a list of all of them.
Yeah, so I have that systemthat I keep everybody and they
(19:10):
just put in the keywords andthey can send you, send
listeners, because I like to.
You know, it's all aboutbuilding our community, building
our family and helping eachother.
Cary Jacobson (19:21):
And it's also helpful to have professionals
that we know are going to behelpful for our clients in their
particular situations.
Frances Schefter (19:31):
Right, exactly .
Cary Jacobson (19:34):
Yeah, For those parents who are just beginning
the IEP process and especially,you know, those who may be going
through a separation or divorce, what are some of the first
steps that they should take toensure that their child's needs
are being met?
Frances Schefter (19:59):
educate yourself.
I mean, that's always thebiggest thing.
The first steps is, you know,find, find groups, find parent
groups.
Um, you know, parents ofspecial needs kids we're, you
know, definitely a differentgroup.
Um, you know, we are justalways supportive and always
there and always happy to helpother parents.
You know, and I say we becauseboth my kids, as I said, are
neurodiverse.
But you know, like, know what,know what, what's available and
(20:21):
what options are there so thatyou can help decide what your
child needs.
So, I mean, that's always mybiggest thing is educate
yourself.
You know, however you need todo it, however you choose to do
it YouTube channels, tiktok,listening to podcasts but like,
know what's available.
And, yes, it's extremelyoverwhelming and it's a lot, but
(20:41):
that's where parent groups like, hey, I just got this new
diagnosis of autism.
What do I go, who do I, who doI talk to, and the moms and dads
will help you.
You know, like, hey, this is agreat group.
Or join this group and help younavigate and figure out your
ways.
Cary Jacobson (20:57):
Yeah, I do think that you know, in this era of
social media, we it is such agreat place to such a great
place to brainstorm and to getthose recommendations, because I
don't know what we used to dobefore.
You would be able to ask, youknow, thousands upon thousands
(21:20):
of people at one time.
Who should I use for this?
It does make it so much easier.
Frances Schefter (21:27):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And it's just like I mean, andand chat GPT, like people are
like, well, what do you do withthis?
What are that?
I'm like, look, I'll take thepresent levels and be like does
this tell you everything youneed to know?
And cut and paste it into chatGPT.
Or I'll take a goal and it likedoesn't sit right, like
something's not right, and likemake sure this goal is a smart
goal.
(21:47):
You know smart, smart, specific, measurable, achievable time,
and you know that spacing on theother one.
But you know, and chat GPT isphenomenal.
I mean, they're not perfect,you need to know what you're
looking at and what you're doing, but it's definitely something
you can use as a tool to helpyou it's definitely something
(22:14):
you can use as a tool to helpyou, absolutely yeah.
Cary Jacobson (22:15):
Can you share a success story of obviously
keeping it anonymous where oneof your families came to you
feeling overwhelmed but, throughyour guidance, were able to
secure the right educationalsupport for their child?
Frances Schefter (22:27):
I mean.
One of the ones I love is thatwhen schools try to say kids are
not eligible because they'resaying, oh well, the kids
getting straight A's is on gradelevel, so they're not eligible
for services, which, with ourkids on the spectrum autism and
especially with, you know, pda,persistent demand avoidance they
(22:51):
are all on grade level.
But the problem is is they'renot in the classroom 50% of the
time or more, and that's wherethe the they're not accessing
the general education curriculum.
And so there's been severaltimes now that I've been able to
go in and explain to the schoolthat this is not an
(23:11):
exclusionary factor.
Just because they're on gradelevel, just because they are,
you know, acing everythingdoesn't mean that they're not
eligible, that they're 100%.
Goals can be on social,emotional.
There doesn't have to beacademic goals, educational
right.
You know, educational impact isnot just bad grades and not
(23:33):
performing well.
You're not accessing thegeneral education curriculum.
If you're not in your classroomfor 50% of the day, or even 20%
of the day, you're notaccessing the curriculum.
So the couple of times thatI've gone into the school system
and been able to convince theschool that this child is
eligible and needs an IEP Likethose are the best, those are
(23:54):
the ones that that you know likeare like.
Those are what we need.
Cary Jacobson (23:58):
And I think that that is as someone who is not,
you know, an education attorneyand do not have does not have a
special needs child, but that iskind of my conception is that
most schools won't take stepsfor providing services if the
child is doing well.
So it's interesting to knowthat they can actually receive
(24:23):
services, because there's stillsomething that's happening that
you know that can be addressedRight, exactly, exactly.
What's one final piece ofadvice that you would give any
parent listening today who feelslost or alone in the process of
(24:44):
advocating?
Frances Schefter (24:46):
for their child with special needs.
Build your community.
You know it's so important.
Lean on others that have doneit.
You know it's such a lonelyprocess wherever you are,
whether you know you're with,you're in the process of divorce
, you've already divorced,whether you get along or don't
get along, just being a parentof a special needs child can be
very lonely because unlessyou're a parent of a special
(25:09):
needs child, you don't alwaysget it, no matter how much our
friends want to.
It's just it's different.
And build your community.
Find your support system.
Lean on your support system.
You can't be there a hundredpercent for your child and
advocate the best for your childIf you're not taking care of
yourself first.
Cary Jacobson (25:26):
A hundred percent , yeah.
So thank you so much for beinghere, frances.
Your incredible work that youdo for families is so inspiring
For our listeners.
If you'd like to learn moreabout Frances and how she helps
families with that stress-freeIEP experience, check out the
notes for our show today andyou'll have a link for her
(25:49):
website.
As always, thanks for joiningDivorce Diaries.
If you found today's episodehelpful, please be sure to
subscribe and share it with afriend.
Until next time.
Intro/Close (26:02):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
I'm not just some attorney coming in trying
to tell you how to do your job.
I'm an attorney that used to doyour job and anything I'm
asking for.
I don't go in demanding thatevery child goes to a non-public
placement because that's notrealistic.
You know, I come in asking forrealistic things and always have
(00:20):
the support because I know howto read the IEPs.
I know how to read the IEPs, Iknow how to read the history.
I know how to read thepsychological reports and pull
what we need to get what myclients want for their child.
Intro/Close (00:34):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where Cary Jacobson
brings you real stories, hardtruths and practical advice on
navigating divorce and familylaw.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:57):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, the podcast, where wedive deep into complex world of
divorce, co-parenting andeverything in between, giving
you tools to navigate the life'stoughest transitions with more
confidence and less chaos.
I'm your Cary Jacobson, andtoday we're talking about
something that's incrediblyimportant for parents of
(01:18):
children with special needs howto advocate for your child's
education during and after adivorce.
Joining me today is FrancesSchefter, an education attorney
and advocate, who has dedicatedher life to helping families
ensure that children get thesupport that they need.
At school, Frances started hercareer in the classroom as a
(01:40):
teacher, became a specialeducation coordinator and
ultimately realized she can makea bigger impact through the
legal system.
After earning her law degreewith a concentration in advocacy
, she founded Schefter Law,where she and her team help
families have a stress-free IEPexperience.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, Frances, forjoining us today.
Frances Schefter (02:03):
Thank you, Carrie, and thank you for having
me.
Cary Jacobson (02:06):
Absolutely.
It's good to see you.
It's been a while since we'veconnected, I know I'd love for
you to start by telling ourlisteners, kind of you know from
the beginning, what inspiredyou to transition from teaching
to becoming an attorney, helpingchildren in education to
becoming an attorney helpingchildren in education.
Frances Schefter (02:26):
So you know, I had been a teacher for I mean,
that was my whole career at thebeginning and I loved teaching,
I loved the kids.
But it's not about the kids.
And it's not about teachingbecause there's all the other
background stuff going on.
And I was at an elementaryschool, it was fabulous.
And then I moved counties to analternative middle and high
(02:49):
school and like I loved the kids, but again it wasn't about the
kids.
Like, put me in a classroomwith my children and let me do
my thing, I'll be fine.
But that reality check itdoesn't happen.
And you know, my story is alittle funny because I never
said I'm going to go to lawschool.
I kind of said I'm going totake the LSATs and see what
happens.
And then you know, and then myfriends like, oh well, you have
(03:11):
to take Kaplan.
All right, fine, I'll takeKaplan.
And you know the series ofevents.
And then all of a sudden I getthis acceptance letter.
Cary Jacobson (03:18):
I'm like I'm going to law school.
Frances Schefter (03:22):
You know, kind of one of those.
And then of course it madesense to combine my two careers
because you know I bringsomething different to the IEP
table as an attorney, becauseI've been on the other side,
I've been the regular teacher,I've been the special ed teacher
, I've been the coordinator,I've also been the mom and now
the attorney as well.
(03:42):
So it definitely bringssomething different to the table
for everyone.
Cary Jacobson (03:47):
And how does all of those experiences combined
help you advocate for yourclients and their kids?
Frances Schefter (03:57):
So it helps me because I'm never at Well.
I should say I'm neveradversarial, I never start
adversarial.
You know, I go in and I Iconnect with the teachers, I
speak their language and I'lltell them, like usually at the
beginning, if they don't know me, I'll tell them my background
and just to be like you knowwhat, I'm not just some attorney
(04:19):
coming in trying to tell youhow to do your job.
I'm an attorney that used to doyour job and to tell you how to
do your job.
I'm an attorney that used to doyour job and and I, you know
anything I'm asking for.
I don't go in demanding thatevery child goes to a non-public
placement, because that's notrealistic.
You know, I I come in askingfor realistic things and always
have the support, because I knowhow to read the IEPs, I know
(04:42):
how to read the history, I knowhow to read the psychological
reports and pull what we need toget what my clients want for
their child.
Cary Jacobson (04:50):
That makes a lot of sense.
And do you find that theteachers have a different
reception to you because you'vebeen on their side?
Frances Schefter (05:04):
you've been on their side, definitely A
hundred percent.
I see there's been so manytimes I've been in IEP meetings,
or even whether they're virtualor when they were in person,
and once I say my background,everybody just kind of like, you
see the sigh of relief, right,you know, because you know, and
we all have our own styles asattorneys, as you know.
But there's no reason to startout adversarial, you know, like,
yeah, there's a reason ourclient hired us because they're
(05:28):
not getting their voice across.
But as an attorney, we canstill come in to get our clients
voice across and they'll listento us more, but in a respectful
way.
That's not like I'll never say,well, you, teacher, aren't
doing this.
I'll be like, well, I'm sureyou're doing it in the classroom
, let's get.
Let's pull it out, like whatexactly do you do here?
(05:49):
And now let's get it in the IEP, right, which is always, you
know, like when you come inaccusing somebody, they're not
going to take it.
Cary Jacobson (05:57):
Absolutely.
Now I know you coined thephrase stress-free IEP.
Can you explain to ourlisteners what that is and how
your firm helps the parentsthrough what is so often that
stressful process?
Frances Schefter (06:13):
Yes, definitely.
A lot of people are likethere's no such thing as a
stress-free IEP.
I'm like I get it 100%.
Look, I stress at my owndaughter's I's meetings.
But where it came from is thatwe take the stress for you and
that's the hope.
You know my team and I, weunderstand what's going on, we
(06:35):
know it.
We're that extra pair of earsfor you so that you, as the
parent, can just be the parent.
You don't have to worry aboutit.
What we like to tell all of ourclients at the IEP meeting
before the IEP meetings werelike look at the IEP meeting,
say whatever you feel.
However you want to do it, it'sall good.
There's nothing you can say inan IEP meeting that we can't say
(06:57):
.
What my client is trying to sayis and put it in that
terminology that we need.
So it's just, it's, it's.
You don't have to stress, wewill stress for you.
We've got you, we've got yourback and and it's, it's just
calming to know that I don'thave to remember everything and
I don't have, you know, as aparent.
Intro/Close (07:18):
I don't have to remember everything.
I don't have to listen toeverything.
Frances Schefter (07:20):
I don't have to ask all the questions, like
somebody else is there, sothat's.
That's what it's about.
Cary Jacobson (07:29):
Now, as you know, so many of our listeners are
going through, or have gonethrough, a divorce or a
separation, and some of themhave you know, so many of our
listeners are going through, orhave gone through, a divorce or
a separation, and some of themhave, you know, children who
have special needs.
How can a divorce or separationimpact a child's IEP or 504
plan?
Frances Schefter (07:50):
So directly it doesn't, but indirectly
obviously it does.
So directly it doesn't, butindirectly obviously it does
Both parents still maintaineducational decision-making
(08:12):
rights, unless for some reasonthere or just you know, as an
agreement in itself to make sureyou have that one has decision,
decision making hastie-breaking authority.
Because what happens is if youhave two parents that are coming
in and both have 50, 50 inlegal rights and they completely
(08:32):
disagree, right, what do you do?
You, you know the school is notgoing to pick one over the
other.
The school is just kind ofgoing to be like I'm out, you
know what else to do.
So that's something that'simportant that you make sure
that one one has decision-making, because or talk through what
you guys want for the kid inadvance, so that you're in that
(08:55):
place, that you don't have thedisagreement.
You know that's one thing.
And then the other thing is tothink about before getting
divorced is your residency Right, and that's?
I've had that issue often withenrollment in the school system,
because if one moves to anothercounty you know there could be
that issue there.
So it's just those things tothink about.
(09:18):
Like, I know divorce is hardand you're not in that
co-parenting mindset always, butyou got to think about it.
You got to put your child firstand really think about what do
we want for our childeducationally?
Cary Jacobson (09:32):
you know Right, what do we want for our child
educationally?
You know Right, and just forour listeners, it is possible to
have tie-breaking authorityjust on one particular issue
such as education, or to specifythat if you have joint legal
custody and you can't come to anagreement, that they can come
(09:53):
back to mediation to try toresolve that particular issue
before something else is dealtwith.
And the 50-50, you know,physical custody is something
that I have dealt with as well.
When you've got parents thatmove, you know, after you've
separated, and unless youspecify where the child is going
(10:15):
to go to school, it can be abattle of which which
jurisdiction the child is goingto enroll in.
Frances Schefter (10:23):
Right, exactly , and especially if they're in
different counties or evendifferent states.
It's challenging because I'vehad situations where the schools
have said, well, wait a minute,they don't live in our district
anymore, they can't attendschool here anymore.
When it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.
Parents are separated, one isliving in DC and one is living
(10:44):
in Maryland.
Here's all the proof.
The child bounces back andforth, you know, like, depending
, they're co-parenting nicelytogether.
Here's all the documentationthat they're still maintaining
the Bethesda address or the youknow the Maryland address.
And he, you know, and this iswhy.
And so you provide all thatproof.
And then the school system'slike oh, okay, but it's one of
(11:05):
those things that you have toknow in advance, to remember
that you might have to prove itagain.
Cary Jacobson (11:11):
Right and it is a simple thing to include in an
agreement.
You know if, if this is goingto become an issue, simply
saying you know the parties orthe parents agree that the child
is going to continue to beenrolled in schools in X County,
um, so that there aren't issuesor disputes about it later.
Frances Schefter (11:33):
Right, yeah, and that, and it's so important
because you know some countiesare, you know all counties have
their own little special waysand what they want.
And you know, a lot of times,like I mean I've had it even in
the same county that parents youknow one is at one address and
one is at the other address indifferent schools, in boundary
(11:53):
schools, and which you know.
Thankfully in that situationboth parents agreed on that
stuff, so it wasn't a big deal.
But I've also had situationswhere you know mom has one
attorney and dad has anotherattorney.
We got the two educationattorneys kind of litigating
together.
It's a little weird because youknow it just to me.
(12:14):
I don't want to say it's awaste of family resources, but
it kind of is like you guys needto get on the same page here.
I know you don't get alongwhatever, but don't put the kids
in the middle, you know.
Cary Jacobson (12:26):
And that's something that we really do try
to work with our clients on, tothe extent that that is possible
, for sure.
Do the schools handle IEPmeetings any differently when
the parents are divorced or arein conflict about their
children's names?
I've had.
Frances Schefter (12:45):
So they're the annual review.
Iep meeting is the annualreview I have always had
difficulty with they're notalways notifying both parents,
but they have to.
Legally, the problem is theirsystem is not set up to have
like two different primaries,but in general they don't teach,
(13:06):
they don't hold themdifferently, they still do the
same.
I have had them have separatemeetings because of parents that
couldn't be in the same room.
Um, and then the problem is islike, if there are disagreements
generally there haven't been,so it's not but schools aren't
gonna, they're not going to getinvolved.
You know they're gonna be likego back, go back to your lawyer.
(13:29):
You know like this is, this isthe court order.
Their legal is going to advisethem.
Like you got to treat them boththe same, um, so they, they
don't.
Um, it's always interestingwhen you have two divorced
parents that start fighting inthe middle of the night and it's
like you know, um, but you knowthe school, the school is going
(13:52):
to focus on what's importantfor the child and what's best
for the child, or at least whatthey think it is.
Cary Jacobson (13:56):
So things should not change just because there's
a divorce that we talked aboutbefore having a tie breaking,
you know, and putting in in theagreement which county is going
(14:21):
to be the the jurisdiction thatthe kids are going to
participate in?
Any other like tips on how tokeep the kids out of the middle
of such a already stressfulsituation?
Frances Schefter (14:32):
Yeah, that's a million dollar question for
everything, right, like I mean,it's remember that to focus on
the child.
You know if you need to, ifyou're both disagreeing, agree
to maybe hire an educationalconsultant.
Agree to maybe go to someonelike I know someone that used to
(14:53):
be a well, he's a mediatorstill.
To maybe go to someone like Iknow someone that used to be a
well, he's a mediator still.
But he also just gives a placefor parents to talk so they can
talk through what's going on andnot necessarily help you decide
what's better, but help you leteach other be heard and gives
you that platform, whereas aneducational consultant or an
advocate could help, likelooking at the documents and
(15:14):
being like, look, I agree withmom or I agree with dad, Like
this is what I see and can helpyou make that decision that way,
because the last thing our kidsneed is our parents fighting
and being stuck in the middle ofwhat's right, and I know it's
hard, emotions are high, butit's like at least for this
(15:35):
little minute, let's puteverything else aside and talk
about our child and what's bestfor our child, especially
because it impacts the child'soverall school experience and
how they're able to thrive inthat environment.
(16:02):
No-transcript.
Cary Jacobson (16:09):
Yeah, let's talk about legal protections, common
mistakes or misconceptions thatparents make when they are
advocating for their child'seducation, especially, you know,
during a situation where theymay be separating or divorcing.
Frances Schefter (16:24):
I mean the common mistakes that parents
make is they and I don't want tosay they trust the school is a
mistake, but but they, they putit all in.
The teachers know best, theyknow what they're talking about,
they know what's available.
I always say educate yourself.
Education is power to know.
I also say that when parentsdon't trust their gut, that is
(16:48):
such a big mistake.
Like we know, moms and dadsknow we get that feeling and
something's not right.
Guess what?
99.9% that feeling andsomething's not right.
Guess what?
99.9% of the time something'snot right.
You know, and so research, youknow, google, whatever it is
find what's best for your childand also remember that you're
(17:09):
just as important as everybodyelse at that table.
You know you know your childbest everybody else.
Yeah, they might have degreesand all that other stuff, but
they haven't been with the childsince birth.
They haven't seen that, and soit's.
It's trust yourself and youknow give, give yourself grace
and give yourself the space tobe able to assert what you want
(17:30):
for your child.
You know what you want for yourchild.
You know um is is the biggestthing.
Cary Jacobson (17:43):
Are there any professionals that you regularly
recommend um parents to consultwith, whether it's, um you know
, advocates such as yourself, or, if it is mental health
providers, anything along thoselines that you recommend to your
clients, or does it just kindof depend on the particular
situation?
Frances Schefter (18:03):
No, I definitely have ones that I've
used before, like for when we'regetting to the point of due
process.
I use Weinfeld Group a lot outin Maryland and their advocates
to be the expert witnesses whenit comes to testing.
You know Ken Stefano, rebeccaResnick, ryan Hinoja I always
(18:25):
get his name wrong.
You know there's a lot ofpeople that I'll recommend that
I like because their reports arethorough.
Stixrud Group you know theperson I was mentioning before,
the mediator that really givesthe space, and what's great
about him is he's a father ofthree Doroid adverse kids, so he
lives it too, as that's EricFeig with Feig Mediation.
(18:46):
Yeah, he's great.
You know there are differentsome.
What I do just to let yourlisteners know is like, if they
want, if they're like, hey, weneed a physical therapist or an
occupational therapist, they cancall my office and whoever they
talk to, whether Shane or Kevin, they can run a report and send
them a list of all of them.
Yeah, so I have that systemthat I keep everybody and they
(19:10):
just put in the keywords andthey can send you, send
listeners, because I like to.
You know, it's all aboutbuilding our community, building
our family and helping eachother.
Cary Jacobson (19:21):
And it's also helpful to have professionals
that we know are going to behelpful for our clients in their
particular situations.
Frances Schefter (19:31):
Right, exactly .
Cary Jacobson (19:34):
Yeah, For those parents who are just beginning
the IEP process and especially,you know, those who may be going
through a separation or divorce, what are some of the first
steps that they should take toensure that their child's needs
are being met?
Frances Schefter (19:59):
educate yourself.
I mean, that's always thebiggest thing.
The first steps is, you know,find, find groups, find parent
groups.
Um, you know, parents ofspecial needs kids we're, you
know, definitely a differentgroup.
Um, you know, we are justalways supportive and always
there and always happy to helpother parents.
You know, and I say we becauseboth my kids, as I said, are
neurodiverse.
But you know, like, know what,know what, what's available and
(20:21):
what options are there so thatyou can help decide what your
child needs.
So, I mean, that's always mybiggest thing is educate
yourself.
You know, however you need todo it, however you choose to do
it YouTube channels, tiktok,listening to podcasts but like,
know what's available.
And, yes, it's extremelyoverwhelming and it's a lot, but
(20:41):
that's where parent groups like, hey, I just got this new
diagnosis of autism.
What do I go, who do I, who doI talk to, and the moms and dads
will help you.
You know, like, hey, this is agreat group.
Or join this group and help younavigate and figure out your
ways.
Cary Jacobson (20:57):
Yeah, I do think that you know, in this era of
social media, we it is such agreat place to such a great
place to brainstorm and to getthose recommendations, because I
don't know what we used to dobefore.
You would be able to ask, youknow, thousands upon thousands
(21:20):
of people at one time.
Who should I use for this?
It does make it so much easier.
Frances Schefter (21:27):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And it's just like I mean, andand chat GPT, like people are
like, well, what do you do withthis?
What are that?
I'm like, look, I'll take thepresent levels and be like does
this tell you everything youneed to know?
And cut and paste it into chatGPT.
Or I'll take a goal and it likedoesn't sit right, like
something's not right, and likemake sure this goal is a smart
goal.
(21:47):
You know smart, smart, specific, measurable, achievable time,
and you know that spacing on theother one.
But you know, and chat GPT isphenomenal.
I mean, they're not perfect,you need to know what you're
looking at and what you're doing, but it's definitely something
you can use as a tool to helpyou it's definitely something
(22:14):
you can use as a tool to helpyou, absolutely yeah.
Cary Jacobson (22:15):
Can you share a success story of obviously
keeping it anonymous where oneof your families came to you
feeling overwhelmed but, throughyour guidance, were able to
secure the right educationalsupport for their child?
Frances Schefter (22:27):
I mean.
One of the ones I love is thatwhen schools try to say kids are
not eligible because they'resaying, oh well, the kids
getting straight A's is on gradelevel, so they're not eligible
for services, which, with ourkids on the spectrum autism and
especially with, you know, pda,persistent demand avoidance they
(22:51):
are all on grade level.
But the problem is is they'renot in the classroom 50% of the
time or more, and that's wherethe the they're not accessing
the general education curriculum.
And so there's been severaltimes now that I've been able to
go in and explain to the schoolthat this is not an
(23:11):
exclusionary factor.
Just because they're on gradelevel, just because they are,
you know, acing everythingdoesn't mean that they're not
eligible, that they're 100%.
Goals can be on social,emotional.
There doesn't have to beacademic goals, educational
right.
You know, educational impact isnot just bad grades and not
(23:33):
performing well.
You're not accessing thegeneral education curriculum.
If you're not in your classroomfor 50% of the day, or even 20%
of the day, you're notaccessing the curriculum.
So the couple of times thatI've gone into the school system
and been able to convince theschool that this child is
eligible and needs an IEP Likethose are the best, those are
(23:54):
the ones that that you know likeare like.
Those are what we need.
Cary Jacobson (23:58):
And I think that that is as someone who is not,
you know, an education attorneyand do not have does not have a
special needs child, but that iskind of my conception is that
most schools won't take stepsfor providing services if the
child is doing well.
So it's interesting to knowthat they can actually receive
(24:23):
services, because there's stillsomething that's happening that
you know that can be addressedRight, exactly, exactly.
What's one final piece ofadvice that you would give any
parent listening today who feelslost or alone in the process of
(24:44):
advocating?
Frances Schefter (24:46):
for their child with special needs.
Build your community.
You know it's so important.
Lean on others that have doneit.
You know it's such a lonelyprocess wherever you are,
whether you know you're with,you're in the process of divorce
, you've already divorced,whether you get along or don't
get along, just being a parentof a special needs child can be
very lonely because unlessyou're a parent of a special
(25:09):
needs child, you don't alwaysget it, no matter how much our
friends want to.
It's just it's different.
And build your community.
Find your support system.
Lean on your support system.
You can't be there a hundredpercent for your child and
advocate the best for your childIf you're not taking care of
yourself first.
Cary Jacobson (25:26):
A hundred percent , yeah.
So thank you so much for beinghere, frances.
Your incredible work that youdo for families is so inspiring
For our listeners.
If you'd like to learn moreabout Frances and how she helps
families with that stress-freeIEP experience, check out the
notes for our show today andyou'll have a link for her
(25:49):
website.
As always, thanks for joiningDivorce Diaries.
If you found today's episodehelpful, please be sure to
subscribe and share it with afriend.
Until next time.
Intro/Close (26:02):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
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