July 22, 2025 • 30 mins
Documenting the invisible battles of divorce can be your strongest defense against ongoing manipulation and control. Join host, Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator with Jacobson Family Law, as she sits down with divorce coach, Tiffany Colburn. Tiffany reveals how proper documentation becomes not just preparation for potential court appearances, but a crucial tool for recognizing harmful patterns in high-conflict co-parenting relationships.
Remember that with proper documentation, clear boundaries, and strategic communication, you can protect your peace even when things feel chaotic. Connect with resources like myhiddenscars.com to develop the tools needed to navigate high-conflict co-parenting while keeping your children's wellbeing at the center.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com to learn more.
Visit jacobsonworkshop.com to learn more.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com to learn more.
Visit jacobsonworkshop.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tiffany Colburn (00:00):
The documentation is probably one of
(00:02):
the biggest things, and I knowthat when I left my ex-husband,
people kept telling me todocument it, but nobody told me
what that looked like or what itmeant.
I have discovered over theyears how important it is
preparing for court and alsoeven just watching for certain
(00:22):
things, even just watching forcertain things.
Intro/Close (00:25):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Cary
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law, whether you're
going through it, considering itor just curious.
This is your place for clarity,confidence and resilience.
This is your place for clarity,confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:48):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches.
I'm your host.
Cary Jacobson attorney,mediatorbe ex-spouse is
(01:09):
determined to drag you back in.
That's where today'sconversation becomes important
and survivor.
Who helps people navigate theemotional abuse and
post-separation control thatoften goes along unseen in the
(01:30):
legal system?
Tiffany helps clients documentstrategically, co-parent with
difficult exes and move forwardwith clarity even when the odds
seem stacked against them.
Tiffany, thank you so much forbeing here.
I am glad to get yourperspective today.
Tiffany Colburn (01:47):
Good morning.
Thank you for having me.
I'm super excited to talk toyou.
Cary Jacobson (01:51):
Awesome.
I always like to start with ourguests, their story.
What led them to the placewhere they are now and working
in this divorce space.
So what inspired you to do thiswork so?
Tiffany Colburn (02:07):
I spent 20 years with my ex-husband and it
took me almost 20 years todiscover that I was being abused
.
I wasn't being abused in a waythat we see on TV or in the
movies, and I was lucky enoughto come across an amazing
therapist that taught me andopened my eyes to what some of
(02:31):
the hidden signs of abuse areand what hidden abuse is.
Course of control things likethat, and that's as I was
leaving my marriage.
I didn't have anybody to leanon.
I spent a lot of time and a lotof money reaching out to my
lawyer, and while I love mylawyer and I think that lawyers
(02:52):
are a great asset you don't haveall the answers either, and as
well being charged every quarterof an hour for an email going
oh my gosh, I don't know how tohandle this.
I it wasn't working for me andmy therapist was great, but she
couldn't always meet me where Iwas at either, so I try and be a
(03:13):
bridge between the twosituations.
Cary Jacobson (03:17):
Right, and so we've had a couple of other
coaches on the podcast before,but for those who may not have
heard those previous episodes,can you explain and I think this
is something that is verycommon for people to not
necessarily understand what thedifference is between a coach
and a therapist?
Tiffany Colburn (03:37):
Sure.
So a therapist really wants towork on your past, dealing with
your trauma and your past andyour healing.
I'm going to I work with youhand in hand, right where you're
at now, and move forward as faras building a new life, how to
work with that other person,because a lot of times we're
(04:00):
stuck.
While we want to leave theabusive situation, we're still
stuck with that person in ourlife, having to work with them,
talking about boundaries.
And while you talk about thatwith your therapist, sometimes
it's more understanding why weneed that boundary in place
rather than how a boundary isgoing to help you.
Cary Jacobson (04:21):
That's a great explanation, Not the kind of the
behind the scenes, the why.
But what are we going to dowith it now going forward?
Tiffany Colburn (04:30):
Exactly.
Cary Jacobson (04:31):
Yeah, what we do with plans is very similar,
especially in the mediationspace.
It's not necessarily what ledyou here, while sometimes that
can come up and be important.
It's now that you're here, whatare you going to do going
forward?
So I always like to kind ofequate those.
Tiffany Colburn (04:53):
Exactly because you do have to continue to
quote unquote, work together alittle bit to raise your kids.
Yep, especially when there arekids involved.
Cary Jacobson (05:03):
Exactly kids, yep , especially when there are kids
involved Exactly Now.
As most people in the show know, or listeners to the show know,
our practice of Jacobson familylaw is very focused on avoiding
litigation whenever possible.
But we also recognize that thatis not always possible and
sometimes, even if they're notin court, they're they may be
(05:27):
facing high conflict situations.
Can you share why documentationis such a powerful tool, maybe
not just for court, but alsoeither after court or kind of in
preparation for separate Um.
Tiffany Colburn (05:46):
So documentation is probably one of
the biggest things, and I knowthat when I left my ex-husband,
people kept telling me todocument it, but nobody told me
what that looked like or what itmeant.
Just preparing for court andalso even just watching for
certain things, Because in my 10years since I've divorced, I've
(06:15):
been in and out of litigation Iguess, so to speak, several
times trying to come to newagreements because my ex has
moved, kids have aged out andwhat have you, and so it's just
super important to one be ableto bring things back to light.
Sometimes you'll forget things.
(06:37):
The other thing is looking forpatterns.
One of the big things in mysituation right now, as a matter
of fact, is the pattern of myex-husband doesn't take my my
son to his activities that he'sscheduled to take him to, and so
finding the pattern of howoften that happens is it once a
(06:59):
month, Is it twice a month, typeof thing.
It's also patterns of whenparents the high conflict person
is taking their visitation ormaking their FaceTime calls, or
how many messages are theysending you every day.
I have a couple of clientscurrently that is preparing for
(07:20):
court, coming up, mediationactually at the end of the month
and we were going through somestuff during a session last week
.
She told me how many messageshe sent her in a month and I'm
like let's break that down evenfarther.
How many messages is he sendingyou per week?
And the number was staggeringand a lot of them were
non-needed messages, just tryingto engage with her and cause
(07:44):
conflict between the two of them.
Cary Jacobson (07:47):
What type of documentation do you generally
recommend for people to bethinking about?
Tiffany Colburn (07:55):
So the biggest thing I recommend to my clients
honestly is using a planner,just an old school planner.
I write down every day.
If I recommend that they writedown every day what activities
the kids have going on that dayschool activities, after school
activities, doctor'sappointments, anything like that
(08:17):
.
I also recommend on thatwriting down did the other
parents show up If it was aschool play?
Did the other parents show up?
If it was a doctor'sappointment, did they show up to
that?
If you have a court-orderedFaceTime call, write that down.
Did they show up on time?
(08:40):
How long did the call last?
Was the child engaged in thecall?
Anything like that.
I find that that's the best wayto find patterns, keep track of
everything that's going on.
If something happens during aphone call between the kids and
the other parents, I might writea small note like child was
(09:04):
upset.
Afterwards I'll even I evenencourage some of my parents of,
or my clients of younger kidsto write down the kids like
their behaviors before and aftervisits with the other parent,
looking for patterns If thekid's coming back very upset or
(09:25):
crying not to go with the parentor whatever.
So I use it for all kinds ofdifferent things crying not to
go with the parent or whatever.
So I use it for all kinds ofdifferent things and I think
that's then they can take it totheir lawyer and be like look at
, these are all the things thatI'm seeing and able to take it
in the courtroom with you to sothat you can answer questions
really quickly.
Cary Jacobson (09:43):
I think that's great advice because one of the
biggest things as an attorneythat comes up is do you remember
the things that happened?
And if you have something thatyou've written simultaneous to
when it happened, then that canpotentially, if ever necessary,
(10:05):
be used as evidence If it getsto the point where you're
actually in court and litigatingthose issues.
Tiffany Colburn (10:16):
I personally was in court a few years ago.
My ex-husband had filedcontempt and one of the things
was oh no, yeah, he had filedcontempt.
And one of the things that cameup was the judge had asked me
directly if I knew how manytimes a month my son went to
speech therapy, or how manytimes a month each of the kids
(10:38):
had a therapy appointment.
Cary Jacobson (11:01):
Really quickly and I had the answer in two
seconds because I not only haddocumented it in my planner, but
you seen it also helpful forsituations such as clients going
to mediation or also trying tosettle cases, so that it doesn't
(11:23):
actually get to the point wherea judge is making those
decisions.
Tiffany Colburn (11:27):
It absolutely does.
Like I said I had, I have aclient that's going to mediation
next week and being able to seehow many emails he had sent her
in one month in a week we brokeit down to a week and her being
able to.
We discuss the fact that thisis something to bring up in
mediation, that he's engaging inthings that were unnecessary in
(11:52):
mediation, that he's engagingin things that were unnecessary.
It's also helpful in mediationas far as maybe even drop off
time and pick up time.
I have personally have movedover the years from dropping off
and picking up on Friday nightand Sunday night to dropping off
after school and picking upafter school and dropping off at
school on Monday morning, sothat there's no engagement
(12:13):
because someone was always lateto drop off and pick up, and so
being able to document that andshow it in mediation and be like
, hey, this would work betterfor us, it's definitely helped
absolutely.
Cary Jacobson (12:36):
Now I know that you specialize in helping people
recognize some of those moresubtle and you know what can be
deeply damaging forms ofemotional abuse and control.
You mentioned that kind of inyour story, not noticing that
for a period of time.
What are some of the signs thatoften go unnoticed, especially
(13:00):
in those co-parenting dynamics?
Tiffany Colburn (13:05):
That's a great question.
It really is some of thelittlest nuances, sometimes the
gaslighting and making youquestion your own reality.
There was a lot of times whereI was told that I just was
making things up, that I wasimagining it, that it didn't
happen, some course of control.
(13:28):
There was control.
We actually had a situationrecently where my son was trying
to leave an activity and hisdad stood in front of the door
and wouldn't let him leave.
And while a lot of people arelike, oh, I'm trying to watch my
kid, there's no reason to trapanybody into a space.
(13:51):
I'm trying to think of someother good examples.
Let's see Even control overmoney.
When I was married, I didn'thave access to any of the
financial information.
I didn't have credit cards in myname, I didn't have car loans
(14:13):
in my name, I didn't have thehome loan in my name, and we
have all of these things.
He gave me X amount of dollars amonth to get groceries, buy
clothes for the kids, stuff likethat, so not having any idea
about any financial type things,and when I left him, I
literally had no credit to beable to rent a place or get a
(14:36):
car loan or anything like that.
And then telling you how todress, how to wear your hair.
I was often told oh, you don'thave to get dressed to go to
this place, you don't needmakeup, you don't need that.
Why are you spending so muchtime getting dressed up to go to
(14:57):
a baseball game or whatever,trying to think of some other
things, and then always watchingfor where I'm at.
If I didn't respond to an emailor a text message right away,
he would keep going and keepgoing, keep on harassing me, and
after a while he would call meand be like where are you?
Why aren't you answering?
(15:17):
Like he was concerned, butreally it wasn't about concern.
So those are just a few thingsthat I can think of off the top
of my head this morning.
Cary Jacobson (15:29):
Now, in situations where people are
trying to work on things outsideof court, where people are
trying to work on things outsideof court, we often see clients
who just want to get along.
They want to make thingsamicable, but sometimes that's
at the cost of their own peace.
They may say they're trying tojust get this over with.
(15:54):
How do you help people balancebeing cooperative we're
hopefully resolving thingsoutside of court but also being
protected in the process.
Tiffany Colburn (16:08):
That is interesting that you brought
that question up.
I actually had a client reachout to me about that this
morning.
That question up I actually hada client reach out to me about
that this morning.
They recently came to anagreement outside of court for a
temporary agreement for custody.
And I will say the daughter isthree and she had requested a
(16:35):
FaceTime once a week or twice aweek, something like that in the
temporary order, and headamantly said no and took it
out Okay, but the last twoweekends that the daughter had
been with dad he has requestedFaceTime from mom.
And this last weekend she said Ihave a bunch like my parents
are visiting.
We have a ton of stuff planned.
(16:55):
Do I have to let him do that?
And I was like no, it's not inthe agreement.
Would it help you a little bitwhen you come to your final
order?
Possibly, but you have theright to say no.
And so this morning when shemessaged me she goes, I feel
really guilty and I was like Ican understand that and she goes
(17:17):
.
But I don't understand why Ifeel guilty and I'm like because
you actually had a boundary andyou want to do the right thing
for your daughter and I go.
It's just one of those thingsthat as a good person, as a, I
like to say, normal person, youwant to do the best for your
(17:37):
kids, but when you have someonethat's just using it to control
and manipulate and make themlook good in court, it's really
hard to have those boundaries.
So it's a hard balance for somepeople.
Cary Jacobson (17:52):
Yeah, it is a hard balance.
Some people yeah, and it is ahard balance.
Um, and I do think, being inthe litigation, process also
makes it more complicatedbecause it does everything
that's going on is being, orcould be, yeah yeah, exactly
(18:14):
that's it.
Tiffany Colburn (18:15):
And she had let him FaceTime the previous visit
, but this time she's.
I could, but I know she's not,she's going to be tired, she's
not going to want to sit andFaceTime with him.
No, every once in a while,right now.
But you have a little morepower when you have a final
(18:35):
order but it's still, especiallysince he took it out Right.
Cary Jacobson (18:50):
Are there any go-to technology apps or
templates that you recommend toyour clients to use when they
are documenting?
You mentioned the plannerbefore, but whether it's
communicating with their ex ortheir co-parent, that may assist
in minimizing the drama betweenthem.
Tiffany Colburn (19:12):
I'm sure you've heard this one a million times
before, but our family wizard isamazing.
I think 90% of the people thatI work with, including myself,
uses it.
It's a great tool.
You have a journal in there,you can pay shared expenses out
of there, you can make phonecalls in there now.
You can set up your visitationcalendar in there, you can share
(19:37):
pictures and, of course, italso allows the court and your
lawyers and everybody elseaccess to it to go over
different messages that aregoing back and forth.
And I personally haven'texperienced that, but I've had
several clients where theirlawyer will watch the
communication between the twoparents closely because one
(20:01):
parent is excessively aggressiveand she'll pop in every once
and take a peek and the othergreat thing about it is it does
have a tone thing, have a tonething.
I can't remember how it'sworded, but it has a tone
moderator and it'll tell you ifyou're being aggressive in your
tone type of thing.
So it's helpful in that areatoo.
Cary Jacobson (20:23):
And, if I remember correctly because I
don't see it from the same sidethat clients see it from, but it
gives suggestions on how torevise the communication and
tone it down.
Tiffany Colburn (20:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So I think that's.
Of all of them that I've seenand heard about with all my
clients, I think that's myfavorite one.
To be honest with you, I don'tknow what you recommend, but I
have a couple others that useClose app and a couple others
and I know that our FamilyWizard there's a cost for it and
(20:59):
some of them.
The others there are not.
But, like the Close app one thatone or two of my clients use,
it's really hard to.
In my opinion, from what I'veseen, it looks more like a text
message thing, and for me Ithink it's hard to follow along
and be able to print it out forcourt or even to take to someone
(21:25):
like yourself or where I live,we have guardian ad litems and
it's hard to print it out sothat other people can see it.
Or sometimes my clients willshare messages that are going on
between between the two of them, so I can help them with their
communication a little bit, andso the close app is way harder
(21:47):
for me to understand, maybebecause I use our family wizard,
but it just seems the harderone to use.
But I do love our familywizards.
Cary Jacobson (21:56):
Yes, that is the one that we recommend the most
as well, and I know thatgenerally courts prefer to use
as well.
Tiffany Colburn (22:05):
Yeah, I think, because everybody can see into
it.
Cary Jacobson (22:08):
Yeah, I know co-parenting is probably one of
the biggest sources of ongoingstress after a couple gets
divorced, especially when the exis high conflict.
What are some of the corestrategies that you teach to
keep communication clean,documentation like along the
lines that we were talking aboutbefore, and really keeping the
(22:32):
kids out of the middle of thesituation and really keeping the
kids out of?
Tiffany Colburn (22:35):
the middle of the situation.
Keeping the kids out of themiddle of the situation is
probably one of the hardestthings, especially when you're
dealing with an abusive highconflict ex.
Honestly, because they love touse the kids as a messenger or a
pawn, whatever I definitely.
When it comes to communicatingwith them, though, one of my
(22:58):
biggest things is using moreyellow rock.
I know a lot of people talkabout gray rock communication
where you're not engaging hardlyat all.
There's no emotion involved, no, anything.
But I know how much judges hateit and I know that it looks
like I'm trying to think of theright word this morning.
(23:22):
It looks like you're not reallytrying to co-parent a whole lot
with them.
When you're using yellow rock,there's a little more emotion
involved.
You're looking as if you'reattempting to co-parent with
that person, and I hate to sayit in that way, but when you're
dealing with a high conflictperson, it's really hard to
(23:46):
co-parent with that person.
I know in most of my clients'cases, if you tell them the sky
is blue, they will argue withyou until they're red in the
face and you're like on thefloor that the sky is red today.
So it's really hard toco-parent in any way, shape or
(24:06):
form.
So trying to do whatever's inthe kid's best interest is
difficult, and so trying toappear as if you're co-parenting
and, being polite, beingkeeping it child focused, is
probably the most importantthing you can do yeah, and it is
challenging when so oftentimesthere is a barrage of negativity
(24:34):
that comes in thecommunications and at least some
of the communications we seefrom our clients.
Cary Jacobson (24:42):
and it's not all about the kids, it's sometimes
just demeaning things towardsthe parent that you have to then
comb through to get to the meatof the issue and having time
for that.
Tiffany Colburn (25:28):
Yes, and I think that's probably one of
offer or whatever is.
I spend a lot of time teachingthem how to communicate, not
just in gray rock, but likepicking apart a message and
being like this is what theissue really is and this is how
we need to respond to it.
And, like I said before, a lotof times my clients will send me
(25:49):
two or three messages, you knowa day or a week or whatever, so
that they can see that, oh,just because dad says that
so-and-so was great at schooltoday, but then attacks you
about not being willing tochange the whole summer schedule
(26:11):
because they didn't like theweeks that you picked, who cares
about if so-and-so had a greatday at school?
You need to stay focused on.
It's not your summer to choosethe weeks for your visitation.
It's my summer and we're notchanging that.
Because you were nice to me fortwo sentences.
Cary Jacobson (26:34):
Tiffany, I so appreciate your insights today
For people who are listening,who are trying to stay calm,
hopefully trying to stay out ofcourt, and still feel like
they're being pulled into thechaos.
What's one thing that you wouldlike them to remember?
Tiffany Colburn (26:52):
That it's not forever and that it's.
It really is about your kidsand what you think is in the
kids best interest and I know wehear that all the time, but, as
the I like to refer to as theprotective parent, we really do
know what's in our kid's bestinterest, and if that means
(27:12):
going through mediation multipletimes, that's really what it
means, right, and that there'splenty of people out there to
help you.
There's great lawyers likeyourself, coaches like myself
that are here to really help youget through this time, because
eventually it does get better.
Cary Jacobson (27:32):
Thank you so much .
Where can our listeners connectwith you if they would like to
use your services?
Tiffany Colburn (27:40):
So I have a great website it is
wwwmyhiddenscarscom, and I'm onsocial media, at
myhiddenscarscoach, on Instagram, so either one perfect place to
find me, and I'm always sharingcertain great insight and stuff
like that.
Cary Jacobson (28:00):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, Tiffany.
And for our listeners, rememberyou can protect your peace even
when things feel out of control.
If you're looking for ways tonavigate divorce without
courtroom battles, we are hereto help.
Please subscribe to thisepisode, share it with anyone
who may find it helpful and staytuned for more real stories and
(28:24):
practical tools right here onDivorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches.
Intro/Close (28:31):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
The documentation is probably one of
(00:02):
the biggest things, and I knowthat when I left my ex-husband,
people kept telling me todocument it, but nobody told me
what that looked like or what itmeant.
I have discovered over theyears how important it is
preparing for court and alsoeven just watching for certain
(00:22):
things, even just watching forcertain things.
Intro/Close (00:25):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Cary
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law, whether you're
going through it, considering itor just curious.
This is your place for clarity,confidence and resilience.
This is your place for clarity,confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:48):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches.
I'm your host.
Cary Jacobson attorney,mediatorbe ex-spouse is
(01:09):
determined to drag you back in.
That's where today'sconversation becomes important
and survivor.
Who helps people navigate theemotional abuse and
post-separation control thatoften goes along unseen in the
(01:30):
legal system?
Tiffany helps clients documentstrategically, co-parent with
difficult exes and move forwardwith clarity even when the odds
seem stacked against them.
Tiffany, thank you so much forbeing here.
I am glad to get yourperspective today.
Tiffany Colburn (01:47):
Good morning.
Thank you for having me.
I'm super excited to talk toyou.
Cary Jacobson (01:51):
Awesome.
I always like to start with ourguests, their story.
What led them to the placewhere they are now and working
in this divorce space.
So what inspired you to do thiswork so?
Tiffany Colburn (02:07):
I spent 20 years with my ex-husband and it
took me almost 20 years todiscover that I was being abused
.
I wasn't being abused in a waythat we see on TV or in the
movies, and I was lucky enoughto come across an amazing
therapist that taught me andopened my eyes to what some of
(02:31):
the hidden signs of abuse areand what hidden abuse is.
Course of control things likethat, and that's as I was
leaving my marriage.
I didn't have anybody to leanon.
I spent a lot of time and a lotof money reaching out to my
lawyer, and while I love mylawyer and I think that lawyers
(02:52):
are a great asset you don't haveall the answers either, and as
well being charged every quarterof an hour for an email going
oh my gosh, I don't know how tohandle this.
I it wasn't working for me andmy therapist was great, but she
couldn't always meet me where Iwas at either, so I try and be a
(03:13):
bridge between the twosituations.
Cary Jacobson (03:17):
Right, and so we've had a couple of other
coaches on the podcast before,but for those who may not have
heard those previous episodes,can you explain and I think this
is something that is verycommon for people to not
necessarily understand what thedifference is between a coach
and a therapist?
Tiffany Colburn (03:37):
Sure.
So a therapist really wants towork on your past, dealing with
your trauma and your past andyour healing.
I'm going to I work with youhand in hand, right where you're
at now, and move forward as faras building a new life, how to
work with that other person,because a lot of times we're
(04:00):
stuck.
While we want to leave theabusive situation, we're still
stuck with that person in ourlife, having to work with them,
talking about boundaries.
And while you talk about thatwith your therapist, sometimes
it's more understanding why weneed that boundary in place
rather than how a boundary isgoing to help you.
Cary Jacobson (04:21):
That's a great explanation, Not the kind of the
behind the scenes, the why.
But what are we going to dowith it now going forward?
Tiffany Colburn (04:30):
Exactly.
Cary Jacobson (04:31):
Yeah, what we do with plans is very similar,
especially in the mediationspace.
It's not necessarily what ledyou here, while sometimes that
can come up and be important.
It's now that you're here, whatare you going to do going
forward?
So I always like to kind ofequate those.
Tiffany Colburn (04:53):
Exactly because you do have to continue to
quote unquote, work together alittle bit to raise your kids.
Yep, especially when there arekids involved.
Cary Jacobson (05:03):
Exactly kids, yep , especially when there are kids
involved Exactly Now.
As most people in the show know, or listeners to the show know,
our practice of Jacobson familylaw is very focused on avoiding
litigation whenever possible.
But we also recognize that thatis not always possible and
sometimes, even if they're notin court, they're they may be
(05:27):
facing high conflict situations.
Can you share why documentationis such a powerful tool, maybe
not just for court, but alsoeither after court or kind of in
preparation for separate Um.
Tiffany Colburn (05:46):
So documentation is probably one of
the biggest things, and I knowthat when I left my ex-husband,
people kept telling me todocument it, but nobody told me
what that looked like or what itmeant.
Just preparing for court andalso even just watching for
certain things, Because in my 10years since I've divorced, I've
(06:15):
been in and out of litigation Iguess, so to speak, several
times trying to come to newagreements because my ex has
moved, kids have aged out andwhat have you, and so it's just
super important to one be ableto bring things back to light.
Sometimes you'll forget things.
(06:37):
The other thing is looking forpatterns.
One of the big things in mysituation right now, as a matter
of fact, is the pattern of myex-husband doesn't take my my
son to his activities that he'sscheduled to take him to, and so
finding the pattern of howoften that happens is it once a
(06:59):
month, Is it twice a month, typeof thing.
It's also patterns of whenparents the high conflict person
is taking their visitation ormaking their FaceTime calls, or
how many messages are theysending you every day.
I have a couple of clientscurrently that is preparing for
(07:20):
court, coming up, mediationactually at the end of the month
and we were going through somestuff during a session last week
.
She told me how many messageshe sent her in a month and I'm
like let's break that down evenfarther.
How many messages is he sendingyou per week?
And the number was staggeringand a lot of them were
non-needed messages, just tryingto engage with her and cause
(07:44):
conflict between the two of them.
Cary Jacobson (07:47):
What type of documentation do you generally
recommend for people to bethinking about?
Tiffany Colburn (07:55):
So the biggest thing I recommend to my clients
honestly is using a planner,just an old school planner.
I write down every day.
If I recommend that they writedown every day what activities
the kids have going on that dayschool activities, after school
activities, doctor'sappointments, anything like that
(08:17):
.
I also recommend on thatwriting down did the other
parents show up If it was aschool play?
Did the other parents show up?
If it was a doctor'sappointment, did they show up to
that?
If you have a court-orderedFaceTime call, write that down.
Did they show up on time?
(08:40):
How long did the call last?
Was the child engaged in thecall?
Anything like that.
I find that that's the best wayto find patterns, keep track of
everything that's going on.
If something happens during aphone call between the kids and
the other parents, I might writea small note like child was
(09:04):
upset.
Afterwards I'll even I evenencourage some of my parents of,
or my clients of younger kidsto write down the kids like
their behaviors before and aftervisits with the other parent,
looking for patterns If thekid's coming back very upset or
(09:25):
crying not to go with the parentor whatever.
So I use it for all kinds ofdifferent things crying not to
go with the parent or whatever.
So I use it for all kinds ofdifferent things and I think
that's then they can take it totheir lawyer and be like look at
, these are all the things thatI'm seeing and able to take it
in the courtroom with you to sothat you can answer questions
really quickly.
Cary Jacobson (09:43):
I think that's great advice because one of the
biggest things as an attorneythat comes up is do you remember
the things that happened?
And if you have something thatyou've written simultaneous to
when it happened, then that canpotentially, if ever necessary,
(10:05):
be used as evidence If it getsto the point where you're
actually in court and litigatingthose issues.
Tiffany Colburn (10:16):
I personally was in court a few years ago.
My ex-husband had filedcontempt and one of the things
was oh no, yeah, he had filedcontempt.
And one of the things that cameup was the judge had asked me
directly if I knew how manytimes a month my son went to
speech therapy, or how manytimes a month each of the kids
(10:38):
had a therapy appointment.
Cary Jacobson (11:01):
Really quickly and I had the answer in two
seconds because I not only haddocumented it in my planner, but
you seen it also helpful forsituations such as clients going
to mediation or also trying tosettle cases, so that it doesn't
(11:23):
actually get to the point wherea judge is making those
decisions.
Tiffany Colburn (11:27):
It absolutely does.
Like I said I had, I have aclient that's going to mediation
next week and being able to seehow many emails he had sent her
in one month in a week we brokeit down to a week and her being
able to.
We discuss the fact that thisis something to bring up in
mediation, that he's engaging inthings that were unnecessary in
(11:52):
mediation, that he's engagingin things that were unnecessary.
It's also helpful in mediationas far as maybe even drop off
time and pick up time.
I have personally have movedover the years from dropping off
and picking up on Friday nightand Sunday night to dropping off
after school and picking upafter school and dropping off at
school on Monday morning, sothat there's no engagement
(12:13):
because someone was always lateto drop off and pick up, and so
being able to document that andshow it in mediation and be like
, hey, this would work betterfor us, it's definitely helped
absolutely.
Cary Jacobson (12:36):
Now I know that you specialize in helping people
recognize some of those moresubtle and you know what can be
deeply damaging forms ofemotional abuse and control.
You mentioned that kind of inyour story, not noticing that
for a period of time.
What are some of the signs thatoften go unnoticed, especially
(13:00):
in those co-parenting dynamics?
Tiffany Colburn (13:05):
That's a great question.
It really is some of thelittlest nuances, sometimes the
gaslighting and making youquestion your own reality.
There was a lot of times whereI was told that I just was
making things up, that I wasimagining it, that it didn't
happen, some course of control.
(13:28):
There was control.
We actually had a situationrecently where my son was trying
to leave an activity and hisdad stood in front of the door
and wouldn't let him leave.
And while a lot of people arelike, oh, I'm trying to watch my
kid, there's no reason to trapanybody into a space.
(13:51):
I'm trying to think of someother good examples.
Let's see Even control overmoney.
When I was married, I didn'thave access to any of the
financial information.
I didn't have credit cards in myname, I didn't have car loans
(14:13):
in my name, I didn't have thehome loan in my name, and we
have all of these things.
He gave me X amount of dollars amonth to get groceries, buy
clothes for the kids, stuff likethat, so not having any idea
about any financial type things,and when I left him, I
literally had no credit to beable to rent a place or get a
(14:36):
car loan or anything like that.
And then telling you how todress, how to wear your hair.
I was often told oh, you don'thave to get dressed to go to
this place, you don't needmakeup, you don't need that.
Why are you spending so muchtime getting dressed up to go to
(14:57):
a baseball game or whatever,trying to think of some other
things, and then always watchingfor where I'm at.
If I didn't respond to an emailor a text message right away,
he would keep going and keepgoing, keep on harassing me, and
after a while he would call meand be like where are you?
Why aren't you answering?
(15:17):
Like he was concerned, butreally it wasn't about concern.
So those are just a few thingsthat I can think of off the top
of my head this morning.
Cary Jacobson (15:29):
Now, in situations where people are
trying to work on things outsideof court, where people are
trying to work on things outsideof court, we often see clients
who just want to get along.
They want to make thingsamicable, but sometimes that's
at the cost of their own peace.
They may say they're trying tojust get this over with.
(15:54):
How do you help people balancebeing cooperative we're
hopefully resolving thingsoutside of court but also being
protected in the process.
Tiffany Colburn (16:08):
That is interesting that you brought
that question up.
I actually had a client reachout to me about that this
morning.
That question up I actually hada client reach out to me about
that this morning.
They recently came to anagreement outside of court for a
temporary agreement for custody.
And I will say the daughter isthree and she had requested a
(16:35):
FaceTime once a week or twice aweek, something like that in the
temporary order, and headamantly said no and took it
out Okay, but the last twoweekends that the daughter had
been with dad he has requestedFaceTime from mom.
And this last weekend she said Ihave a bunch like my parents
are visiting.
We have a ton of stuff planned.
(16:55):
Do I have to let him do that?
And I was like no, it's not inthe agreement.
Would it help you a little bitwhen you come to your final
order?
Possibly, but you have theright to say no.
And so this morning when shemessaged me she goes, I feel
really guilty and I was like Ican understand that and she goes
(17:17):
.
But I don't understand why Ifeel guilty and I'm like because
you actually had a boundary andyou want to do the right thing
for your daughter and I go.
It's just one of those thingsthat as a good person, as a, I
like to say, normal person, youwant to do the best for your
(17:37):
kids, but when you have someonethat's just using it to control
and manipulate and make themlook good in court, it's really
hard to have those boundaries.
So it's a hard balance for somepeople.
Cary Jacobson (17:52):
Yeah, it is a hard balance.
Some people yeah, and it is ahard balance.
Um, and I do think, being inthe litigation, process also
makes it more complicatedbecause it does everything
that's going on is being, orcould be, yeah yeah, exactly
(18:14):
that's it.
Tiffany Colburn (18:15):
And she had let him FaceTime the previous visit
, but this time she's.
I could, but I know she's not,she's going to be tired, she's
not going to want to sit andFaceTime with him.
No, every once in a while,right now.
But you have a little morepower when you have a final
(18:35):
order but it's still, especiallysince he took it out Right.
Cary Jacobson (18:50):
Are there any go-to technology apps or
templates that you recommend toyour clients to use when they
are documenting?
You mentioned the plannerbefore, but whether it's
communicating with their ex ortheir co-parent, that may assist
in minimizing the drama betweenthem.
Tiffany Colburn (19:12):
I'm sure you've heard this one a million times
before, but our family wizard isamazing.
I think 90% of the people thatI work with, including myself,
uses it.
It's a great tool.
You have a journal in there,you can pay shared expenses out
of there, you can make phonecalls in there now.
You can set up your visitationcalendar in there, you can share
(19:37):
pictures and, of course, italso allows the court and your
lawyers and everybody elseaccess to it to go over
different messages that aregoing back and forth.
And I personally haven'texperienced that, but I've had
several clients where theirlawyer will watch the
communication between the twoparents closely because one
(20:01):
parent is excessively aggressiveand she'll pop in every once
and take a peek and the othergreat thing about it is it does
have a tone thing, have a tonething.
I can't remember how it'sworded, but it has a tone
moderator and it'll tell you ifyou're being aggressive in your
tone type of thing.
So it's helpful in that areatoo.
Cary Jacobson (20:23):
And, if I remember correctly because I
don't see it from the same sidethat clients see it from, but it
gives suggestions on how torevise the communication and
tone it down.
Tiffany Colburn (20:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So I think that's.
Of all of them that I've seenand heard about with all my
clients, I think that's myfavorite one.
To be honest with you, I don'tknow what you recommend, but I
have a couple others that useClose app and a couple others
and I know that our FamilyWizard there's a cost for it and
(20:59):
some of them.
The others there are not.
But, like the Close app one thatone or two of my clients use,
it's really hard to.
In my opinion, from what I'veseen, it looks more like a text
message thing, and for me Ithink it's hard to follow along
and be able to print it out forcourt or even to take to someone
(21:25):
like yourself or where I live,we have guardian ad litems and
it's hard to print it out sothat other people can see it.
Or sometimes my clients willshare messages that are going on
between between the two of them, so I can help them with their
communication a little bit, andso the close app is way harder
(21:47):
for me to understand, maybebecause I use our family wizard,
but it just seems the harderone to use.
But I do love our familywizards.
Cary Jacobson (21:56):
Yes, that is the one that we recommend the most
as well, and I know thatgenerally courts prefer to use
as well.
Tiffany Colburn (22:05):
Yeah, I think, because everybody can see into
it.
Cary Jacobson (22:08):
Yeah, I know co-parenting is probably one of
the biggest sources of ongoingstress after a couple gets
divorced, especially when the exis high conflict.
What are some of the corestrategies that you teach to
keep communication clean,documentation like along the
lines that we were talking aboutbefore, and really keeping the
(22:32):
kids out of the middle of thesituation and really keeping the
kids out of?
Tiffany Colburn (22:35):
the middle of the situation.
Keeping the kids out of themiddle of the situation is
probably one of the hardestthings, especially when you're
dealing with an abusive highconflict ex.
Honestly, because they love touse the kids as a messenger or a
pawn, whatever I definitely.
When it comes to communicatingwith them, though, one of my
(22:58):
biggest things is using moreyellow rock.
I know a lot of people talkabout gray rock communication
where you're not engaging hardlyat all.
There's no emotion involved, no, anything.
But I know how much judges hateit and I know that it looks
like I'm trying to think of theright word this morning.
(23:22):
It looks like you're not reallytrying to co-parent a whole lot
with them.
When you're using yellow rock,there's a little more emotion
involved.
You're looking as if you'reattempting to co-parent with
that person, and I hate to sayit in that way, but when you're
dealing with a high conflictperson, it's really hard to
(23:46):
co-parent with that person.
I know in most of my clients'cases, if you tell them the sky
is blue, they will argue withyou until they're red in the
face and you're like on thefloor that the sky is red today.
So it's really hard toco-parent in any way, shape or
(24:06):
form.
So trying to do whatever's inthe kid's best interest is
difficult, and so trying toappear as if you're co-parenting
and, being polite, beingkeeping it child focused, is
probably the most importantthing you can do yeah, and it is
challenging when so oftentimesthere is a barrage of negativity
(24:34):
that comes in thecommunications and at least some
of the communications we seefrom our clients.
Cary Jacobson (24:42):
and it's not all about the kids, it's sometimes
just demeaning things towardsthe parent that you have to then
comb through to get to the meatof the issue and having time
for that.
Tiffany Colburn (25:28):
Yes, and I think that's probably one of
offer or whatever is.
I spend a lot of time teachingthem how to communicate, not
just in gray rock, but likepicking apart a message and
being like this is what theissue really is and this is how
we need to respond to it.
And, like I said before, a lotof times my clients will send me
(25:49):
two or three messages, you knowa day or a week or whatever, so
that they can see that, oh,just because dad says that
so-and-so was great at schooltoday, but then attacks you
about not being willing tochange the whole summer schedule
(26:11):
because they didn't like theweeks that you picked, who cares
about if so-and-so had a greatday at school?
You need to stay focused on.
It's not your summer to choosethe weeks for your visitation.
It's my summer and we're notchanging that.
Because you were nice to me fortwo sentences.
Cary Jacobson (26:34):
Tiffany, I so appreciate your insights today
For people who are listening,who are trying to stay calm,
hopefully trying to stay out ofcourt, and still feel like
they're being pulled into thechaos.
What's one thing that you wouldlike them to remember?
Tiffany Colburn (26:52):
That it's not forever and that it's.
It really is about your kidsand what you think is in the
kids best interest and I know wehear that all the time, but, as
the I like to refer to as theprotective parent, we really do
know what's in our kid's bestinterest, and if that means
(27:12):
going through mediation multipletimes, that's really what it
means, right, and that there'splenty of people out there to
help you.
There's great lawyers likeyourself, coaches like myself
that are here to really help youget through this time, because
eventually it does get better.
Cary Jacobson (27:32):
Thank you so much .
Where can our listeners connectwith you if they would like to
use your services?
Tiffany Colburn (27:40):
So I have a great website it is
wwwmyhiddenscarscom, and I'm onsocial media, at
myhiddenscarscoach, on Instagram, so either one perfect place to
find me, and I'm always sharingcertain great insight and stuff
like that.
Cary Jacobson (28:00):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much, Tiffany.
And for our listeners, rememberyou can protect your peace even
when things feel out of control.
If you're looking for ways tonavigate divorce without
courtroom battles, we are hereto help.
Please subscribe to thisepisode, share it with anyone
who may find it helpful and staytuned for more real stories and
(28:24):
practical tools right here onDivorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches.
Intro/Close (28:31):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
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