July 29, 2025 • 30 mins
Host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator, is joined this week by Jeff Kolez as he shares his journey through a brutal seven-year divorce that cost him $100,000 and left him emotionally devastated with a "soul wound." He reveals how he developed a five-step process for healing and rebuilding trust in himself after losing friends, money, and his sense of identity.
Whether you're contemplating divorce, in the midst of one, or still healing years later, this episode delivers practical wisdom infused with compassion and hard-earned insight. Subscribe to Divorce Diaries for more conversations that bring clarity, confidence and resilience to one of life's most challenging transitions.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com to learn more.
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Episode Transcript
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Jeff Kolez (00:00):
I just thought the divorce was going to be
splitting the goods and movingon.
But it went much, much deeperthan that.
I lost friends of 10, 15 yearsbecause they said they didn't
want to side with anybody.
And it impacted me in everyarea of life.
(00:22):
It impacted my relationships,me in every area of life.
It impacted my relationships.
It impacted my ability to makemoney, to hold on to money.
Physically, I had a hard timesleeping.
Intro/Close (00:35):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Cary
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:57):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, where we dive deepinto real stories and emotional
journeys of people navigatinglife during and after divorce.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,family law attorney, mediator
and advocate for out-of-courtresolutions.
Today we're talking about whathappens after the dust settles
(01:18):
about healing, rebuilding andlearning to trust yourself again
.
I'm honored to have Jeff Kolezto the podcast.
Jeff has lived through a warzone of a marriage and survived
a brutal divorce.
He walked away with nothingexcept a broken heart and the
decision to fight for his future, and through that he found his
(01:40):
own purpose and has developed afive-step process for recovering
after divorce, emotionally andspiritually.
Jeff, thank you so much forbeing here today.
Jeff Kolez (01:50):
Well, I appreciate you even opening this
conversation, Cary.
I know a lot well.
When I was going through mydivorce 15 years ago, there was
like almost nothing, almostnothing, and it's, it's, it's.
I'm very happy that somebody ishaving these sort of
conversations and and openingthe door to it.
Cary Jacobson (02:12):
Well, I appreciate that and I'm hopeful
that we can help someone who maybe going through that same type
of experience.
Now.
Can you share a little bitabout your story with our
listeners?
And you know, really, what wasthe moment.
You knew you had to walk away.
Jeff Kolez (02:33):
Absolutely.
If I make a face here, there'sa little kitten around my ankles
and she just tried climbing mylegs.
So yeah, my divorce was such amiserable thing.
Um, like I said, it was about15 years ago at this point and,
um, I, I didn't, I I didn'tthink going into it there was
(02:59):
anything to even fight about.
It just seemed like it would bevery cut and dry, black and
white, cut everything in half,and then we'd go on our way.
We didn't even have that muchstuff and it lasted seven years.
Two rounds in the court um costme a hundred thousand dollars.
Um, and I came out of it justbewildered, angry.
(03:22):
Um, I didn't have a sense ofwho I was anymore.
I didn't have, I didn't trustwho, the people who were in my
life after that.
And I had a new relationshipand you know, a lot of the old
(03:43):
stuff from the previous marriagecame forward with that and I
didn't realize how much baggagecame with it.
So a lot of the fight was justover time with the kids and I
was accused of being a badfather, of being abusive in my
(04:05):
marriage, and looking back nowit just seems like it was about
me and not.
It was about money and not, youknow, anything substantial
beyond that.
I don't know how I could havenot gone through that.
(04:26):
I look back and it just seemedlike something I had to go
through.
And I barely speak with my exat this point.
We have a civil relationship,but not much beyond that, and
(04:48):
it's just.
It's sad to go from a placewhere your, your wife, is your
best friend to your greatestenemy.
Cary Jacobson (04:54):
Yeah, I'm sure that that was really difficult
and it sounds like it it took alot out of everyone in that
process.
You've described your go ahead.
Jeff Kolez (05:06):
A hundred percent.
I'm just agreeing with you Ahundred percent.
And I know it took a lot out ofthe kids and and I have two
boys and I know they bounce backand forth we had this really
weird schedule and I know ittook a toll on them but I know
they they love both of us andthey just wanted to see peace.
Cary Jacobson (05:26):
Right, yeah, and that's often so much.
What the kids want, right, isto to have peace between their
parents, um, so that they're notfeeling like necessarily in the
middle of that.
Jeff Kolez (05:41):
A hundred percent 100%.
Cary Jacobson (05:44):
You've described your divorce as a soul wound.
What did that feel like for youin the early days?
Jeff Kolez (05:52):
Just discombobulation, I didn't know
which way was up.
Like I just like again, I justthought the divorce was going to
be splitting the goods andmoving on.
But it went much, much deeperthan that.
Um, I lost friends of 10, 15years because they didn't they,
(06:12):
they said they didn't want toside with anybody, and and um,
and it was it.
It impacted me in every area oflife.
It impacted my relationships,it impacted my ability to make
money, to hold on to money, tophysically like I had a hard
(06:38):
time sleeping.
So I consider, when you look atall of that, that is the soul
expressing itself in thephysical world.
So, going down to that level,it was like I don't know who I
am.
So how do I move forward fromthere?
I thought I did everythingright, I followed the
(07:02):
instructions on the packet.
I thought I did everythingright, I followed the
instructions on the packet, andthen I found out I had a cake
that didn't rise, to torturethat metaphor a little bit.
And then what do you do whenyou follow the instructions on
the packet and it doesn't work,what do you do at that point?
So I looked really deep inmyself and I had to figure out
(07:24):
what I was doing wrong in orderto rebuild that life.
So what it felt like was almostlike being underwater and not
sure which way is up, not surewhich way to swim to work
towards air.
Cary Jacobson (07:43):
Yeah, did you have a professional team that
you worked with throughout thedivorce process?
Jeff Kolez (07:52):
I had.
Well, I had lawyers.
I went through two sets oflawyers.
I went through, we tried to domediation.
It could have been very simplewith mediation.
I guess we decided not to gothat way.
So, yeah, uh, mediation, andthen it went to lawyers.
(08:13):
Um, while I was in that process, I was like emotionally burned
out.
So I started working withsomebody who who helps with the
emotions.
Um, so I had you know thatcoach, I had lawyers.
I think that's probably it.
(08:34):
Oh and I heard somebody to workwith me physically so that I,
you know, took that energy outat the gym rather than having it
at home all the time having itat home all the time, right?
Cary Jacobson (08:54):
Well, it sounds like you, you know, had the
support of a good network ofprofessionals, kind of
throughout the process,depending on kind of where you
were in that process.
Jeff, I'm curious, what madeyou realize that logic was not
going to fix the pain that youwere experiencing through this
process?
Jeff Kolez (09:11):
Like I was saying the question before, a soul
wound is not fixed by logic.
A divorce is such an emotionalbattleground.
It's it's all of a sudden.
It's two people who used tolove each other who don't, and
they know each other'svulnerabilities.
(09:33):
And in a divorce in my divorceanyway I guess I can't speak in
too many generalities the personwho reacts last is the one who
always gets penalized.
So my I I don't want to accuseher too much, but my ex would
(09:56):
provoke me and I would react andthen she would go look he's,
you know he's reacting.
So going through the process,those emotions were used against
me and I was trying to applylogic like, look, I paid for
(10:19):
half of the house, so I shouldget for half the money, whereas
she was coming from the angle oflook, he is reacting
emotionally.
So I found I had to be centeredall of the time and if I wasn't
, I found my ex would use thatagainst me, those emotional
(10:40):
reactions, and the court pickedup on that.
And the court picked up on that.
And that's what the courtlooked at is when I was, when I
would be, when I would reactemotionally.
No, there was nothing likereally bad.
But you know, when somebodyaccuses you of being a bad
(11:05):
father or, you know, tells yourfriends that it was an abusive
relationship when it wasn't, youreact like you're.
You're angry.
So, um, um, the logic is't helpyou there, because emotions
(11:31):
aren't a logic.
That's what I'm trying to say.
Cary Jacobson (11:34):
Right, absolutely .
And you know, I think peoplemiss the fact that the divorce
process is so emotional and wehave to like make sure that we
pay attention to that so that weapproach issues in a more
(11:59):
logical way by taking thoseemotions out to the extent that
that's possible.
But I understand that.
You know, sometimes it iscommon for someone to push those
buttons because they know whichbuttons to push, looking for a
reason, so that they cancapitalize on that.
Jeff Kolez (12:20):
A hundred percent.
And I imagine that aligns withthe type of lawyer you get.
And I imagine that aligns withthe type of lawyer you get.
And I imagine there aredifferent types of lawyers.
Some try to be collaborative,some try to be combative.
Cary Jacobson (12:36):
Right.
Jeff Kolez (12:38):
And I think my ex hired a very combative lawyer to
push those, to try to pushthose buttons as much as
possible.
And what a damaging process itis.
Like, do you really want todestroy the, the parent of the
other parent of your kids?
Like does that, does that makeany sense for a couple of
(13:01):
hundred bucks a month?
Like that, that doesn't seem.
That never made.
That never sat right with me.
Cary Jacobson (13:06):
That doesn't seem that never sat right with me
and I 100% agree that it doesoften depend on the type of
lawyer you get or that youdecide to work with, because
(13:28):
most of the time the lawyer isthe one kind of driving the
process and giving the advice onhow to handle certain things
and my experience in being anattorney and doing this work,
I've had many situations wherethe client didn't even know what
the attorney was doing andisn't always kind of behind that
in requesting that those actsbeing taken.
It's just how the attorneyapproaches certain cases and
(13:52):
unfortunately not that it hashappened with all attorneys, but
in many situations they aredoing it until they, you know,
until the well runs dry and can,you know, resolve the case and
get out or get out of the case.
So now I know that you have,you know, after your divorce
(14:19):
that you've been kind of workingin with other individuals and
helping them with recoveringfrom force, and I'd love for you
to share your five-step processwith us about how to recover.
Jeff Kolez (14:40):
Yes, I'm happy to do that.
This is a process I kind ofdeveloped over a few years.
I didn't have it going into it.
I didn't work with somebody whospecifically helped with the
emotional recovery through adivorce.
But before I start talkingabout the five processes,
(15:03):
there's really three things thatyou need to bring into this as
somebody who's looking torecover.
And that's number one curiosity.
And what I mean by that is theability to ask why of yourself
and there's some really hardquestions you need to look at
(15:26):
when you're dealing with theemotions of a divorce, and
especially something that runsso deep With myself.
Why did I attract a partner whowas so challenging through the
marriage and the divorce?
Number two courage.
You need real strength to lookinside of yourself.
(15:48):
You're going to be like thatprocess of being upside down in
the water and not knowing whichway to swim.
There were days I did not wantto get out of bed.
(16:12):
I was depressed, I washeartbroken, and when you're in
that place you need to keeptaking steps forward to get out
of it.
And number three determinationthat grit to keep going forward.
It's so easy to give up andjust numb out.
There were when I was goingthrough this I got, I went
(16:34):
through antidepressants, I had amarijuana prescription and it
was just so easy to numb out.
But that's not going to moveyou forward.
All you're going to do is stayin the same place.
So the five steps this is thefive steps.
Number one build out boundaries.
I call it the outer gate.
(16:54):
So keep your ex at arm's length.
You would be amazed at how manymen are still going over to
their ex's house fixing gutters,um, hanging out, you know, um
having dinners, sleeping withtheir exes, you know, being that
(17:14):
emotional, um, uh, being thereemotionally for her.
You really can't do that.
You have to make that hardseparation.
So the first step is justbuilding that distance.
Number two is starting torecognize the patterns.
(17:40):
That oh and sorry.
One more point about the gateis setting those boundaries.
One of the tips I suggest isusing something called Greyrock,
and sometimes your ex will tryto push your buttons, but you've
(18:02):
got to not show.
Not show her that or him that.
That reaction is that they'regetting a reaction when they
push their, when they push yourbuttons.
So there's a technique calledgray rocking, where you, she,
says something provocative andyou just go okay, or you don't
(18:22):
react to it and you just go okay, or you don't react to it.
And that is one of the hardestparts is is not reacting when
somebody calls you a bad father,a bad husband, whatever it
might be.
It's called gray rockingbecause just imagine a pebble on
the beach.
None of them are any moreinteresting than the other.
(18:44):
Okay, so you set yourboundaries.
Then you have to start noticingthe the, the other.
Okay, so you set yourboundaries.
Then you have to start noticingthe patterns.
So if you are reacting to yourex calling you a bad father,
well, why are you having thatreaction?
What's going on underneath Ifyou feel depressed every day at
a certain time?
(19:05):
What's going on when that'shappening?
So you're recognizing thoseemotional triggers and their
signals.
They're not I wouldn't look atthem as something negative, but
just what those triggers are.
The next thing is you developthat, that conversation with
(19:26):
yourself, and I call it theconversation with the heart.
How do I make sure this doesn'thappen again Somewhere along
your life?
Your intuition guided you intothis place.
Why did it guide you there andhow do you make sure it never
happens again?
So how did I get here?
(19:47):
And then from there, you reallystart to take responsibility
for your story and your life.
How did I get here?
How do I make sure it didn'thappen again Before that?
It can feel really like you'rebeing tossed from one side to
the other.
You're running from what feelsbad to what feels good.
(20:08):
But if you really answer thatquestion, how did I end up here?
You're really taking ownershipof the next step.
The step after that isreconnecting with your heart,
learning to trust that intuition, and sometimes I still get
stuck here.
My intuition tells me one thingand I did the opposite.
(20:31):
So you're from this place.
You're working on those oldbeliefs.
A lot of the time they'recarried from childhood the being
unseen, unheard, the beingunseen, unheard, unworthy and
they're those old wounds thatevery, every single one of us
(20:52):
carry.
And if you don't heal it atthis point, you're going to
carry that into your nextrelationship, or you already
have and you're noticing thatthose patterns are still there.
This from from here, it'sreally about learning to be
grateful for whatever yourdivorce taught you, and I know
that sounds really hard whenyou're going through the divorce
(21:14):
.
But if you can really learn toum, find what that divorce
taught you, you'll.
You'll be really you'll.
You'll come out of it ahead.
So for mine, I was never taughthow to have a healthy
relationship, so I was alwaystrying to fix my partners.
(21:36):
When I recognized that pattern,I realized that I didn't have
to be somebody who fixessomebody else.
The last step is what I call theforge.
So you're building out your newlife, you're bringing on new
relationships, but you're doingit from a place where you're
listening, almost through thosescars that you've healed.
(21:58):
It's better to move forwardwith scars rather than the
wounds.
If you're leading with scars,that's wisdom.
You're leading from.
This relationship didn't work inthe past because of this and
you go, oh okay, well, I'll trythis other thing, and that's
(22:22):
real wisdom and that's what Ithink you can pass down to your
kids.
For some reason well, in myexample, I wasn't given a lot of
wisdom around how to have arelationship, so I was figuring
that out on my own, and so onceI had that bad relationship, I
(22:46):
was able to take my own wisdom,listen to my own intuition and
really move forward with thatLike listen to myself and from
there you really build trustwith yourself.
Maybe you didn't have thattrust before, that trust to
listen to your relation, your,your, your intuition.
(23:07):
But once you've been throughthe ringer, you learn to trust
that.
So that's the five steps.
Cary Jacobson (23:21):
I appreciate that .
Thank you.
That's helpful for anyone whois coming out of a divorce
process and looking to kind ofrebuild and hopefully improve
their relationships goingforward.
I would love for you to sharehow your life has changed since
(23:42):
going through that process andnow that you've gone through
those five steps.
Jeff Kolez (23:49):
I've had a relationship, for I've been in a
relationship for coming up on13 years and it.
You know, we've had ourchallenges.
But going through those fivesteps, we work on it together,
we go and it's.
We work on it together and wego.
You know, this is our woundshowing up.
(24:10):
How do we not live from thiswound and and and how do we
decide that we want to betogether?
You know, and even even thequestion of do we want to be
together comes up still notstill, but it has come up in the
past and we've been able towork through it.
It's a very deep relationship.
We know each other very, veryintimately and deeply.
(24:33):
We've been together longer thanI was in my marriage.
She also went through a divorce.
So you know, we both came withwith our wounds, but we're not
leading from those woundsanymore.
I have a wonderful relationshipwith my kids.
It's very intimate as well.
(24:56):
They share what they want toshare, but it's their lives.
They both went throughrelationship troubles of their
own, um, and they were able tocome to me and say, hey, how do
(25:17):
I get out of this?
How do I?
How do I, how do I make surethis doesn't happen again, um,
and you know, you know they'renavigating that and learning to
live their lives and learninghow to have relationships.
I've really tried to pass downas much wisdom as I could about
how to have those positive kindof relationships.
(25:39):
One of the things that reallydecides I'm speaking
specifically about men here howsuccessful a man is in his life
is the partner he chooses.
So I think it's really it'ssuper important for for um
parents to really talk about um,how to have that really
(26:02):
positive kind of relationship.
Cary Jacobson (26:07):
That's.
I'm sure that you know.
Your kids have gone throughthis.
They are obviously impacted aswell, and so helping them learn
how to have those positiverelationships is super helpful.
Relationships is super helpful.
If you could go back and speakto the version of yourself, you
(26:36):
know, at the beginning of thedivorce process, is there
anything that you would say tothat person that may have
potentially and I know that someof it is out of their control
because you can't control howthe other partner kind of
approaches the process Is thereanything that you would tell
that earlier version of yourself?
Jeff Kolez (26:53):
I don't know.
I would have listened, I waspretty stubborn, and maybe that
stubbornness was necessary, Idon't know.
But I would have said do yourbest and then let go of the
results.
Don't know, but I would havesaid do your best and then let
go of the results.
Um, the, everything I foughtfor I did not get, everything I
allowed to happen happened in myfavor.
(27:15):
So, um, you know, do your best,make sure that things that are
important are taken care of.
Have your time with the kids.
Um, as a father, it is soimportant to be in your kids
lives, um, and and so do yourbest with that.
(27:35):
Everything else is out of yourcontrol.
So, um, um, you can't sweat.
You can't fight against whatisn't in your control.
You're just going to exhaustyourself trying to swim upstream
against the rapids.
So that would be the advice Iwould give myself Focus on
(27:58):
rebuilding your life rather thanfighting for what's what's
already lost, what's alreadylost, Got it Well.
Cary Jacobson (28:06):
That's very insightful and I appreciate that
advice for anybody who may begoing through this journey now
for the first time.
So thank you so much for yourvulnerability and strength and
sharing your story.
Your story reminds me that youknow, a divorce is not the end
(28:26):
of the story, but just the endof a chapter.
And so, for all of those whoare listening, Jeff, can you
share how people can find you ifthey are interested in learning
more about you and yourservices?
Jeff Kolez (28:38):
Absolutely Divorce-daddy.
com.
I have some services there.
I work one-on-one and I've gotsome group coaching as well.
Cary Jacobson (28:49):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much and for thoselistening.
If you're looking for moretools to support your divorce
journey, visit our stand store.
The link will be in our shownotes for practical link
resources.
Be sure to check out ourwebsite at jacobsonfamilylaw.
com to learn more about thedivorce process and mediation in
Maryland, and be sure tosubscribe to Divorce Diaries,
(29:12):
lessons from the Trenches, wherewe bring you real conversations
with people who've been throughit and come out on the other
side stronger.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,and until next time, take care.
Intro/Close (29:25):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.
com or call 443-726-4912 forsupport and guidance.
I just thought the divorce was going to be
splitting the goods and movingon.
But it went much, much deeperthan that.
I lost friends of 10, 15 yearsbecause they said they didn't
want to side with anybody.
And it impacted me in everyarea of life.
(00:22):
It impacted my relationships,me in every area of life.
It impacted my relationships.
It impacted my ability to makemoney, to hold on to money.
Physically, I had a hard timesleeping.
Intro/Close (00:35):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Cary
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:57):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, where we dive deepinto real stories and emotional
journeys of people navigatinglife during and after divorce.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,family law attorney, mediator
and advocate for out-of-courtresolutions.
Today we're talking about whathappens after the dust settles
(01:18):
about healing, rebuilding andlearning to trust yourself again
.
I'm honored to have Jeff Kolezto the podcast.
Jeff has lived through a warzone of a marriage and survived
a brutal divorce.
He walked away with nothingexcept a broken heart and the
decision to fight for his future, and through that he found his
(01:40):
own purpose and has developed afive-step process for recovering
after divorce, emotionally andspiritually.
Jeff, thank you so much forbeing here today.
Jeff Kolez (01:50):
Well, I appreciate you even opening this
conversation, Cary.
I know a lot well.
When I was going through mydivorce 15 years ago, there was
like almost nothing, almostnothing, and it's, it's, it's.
I'm very happy that somebody ishaving these sort of
conversations and and openingthe door to it.
Cary Jacobson (02:12):
Well, I appreciate that and I'm hopeful
that we can help someone who maybe going through that same type
of experience.
Now.
Can you share a little bitabout your story with our
listeners?
And you know, really, what wasthe moment.
You knew you had to walk away.
Jeff Kolez (02:33):
Absolutely.
If I make a face here, there'sa little kitten around my ankles
and she just tried climbing mylegs.
So yeah, my divorce was such amiserable thing.
Um, like I said, it was about15 years ago at this point and,
um, I, I didn't, I I didn'tthink going into it there was
(02:59):
anything to even fight about.
It just seemed like it would bevery cut and dry, black and
white, cut everything in half,and then we'd go on our way.
We didn't even have that muchstuff and it lasted seven years.
Two rounds in the court um costme a hundred thousand dollars.
Um, and I came out of it justbewildered, angry.
(03:22):
Um, I didn't have a sense ofwho I was anymore.
I didn't have, I didn't trustwho, the people who were in my
life after that.
And I had a new relationshipand you know, a lot of the old
(03:43):
stuff from the previous marriagecame forward with that and I
didn't realize how much baggagecame with it.
So a lot of the fight was justover time with the kids and I
was accused of being a badfather, of being abusive in my
(04:05):
marriage, and looking back nowit just seems like it was about
me and not.
It was about money and not, youknow, anything substantial
beyond that.
I don't know how I could havenot gone through that.
(04:26):
I look back and it just seemedlike something I had to go
through.
And I barely speak with my exat this point.
We have a civil relationship,but not much beyond that, and
(04:48):
it's just.
It's sad to go from a placewhere your, your wife, is your
best friend to your greatestenemy.
Cary Jacobson (04:54):
Yeah, I'm sure that that was really difficult
and it sounds like it it took alot out of everyone in that
process.
You've described your go ahead.
Jeff Kolez (05:06):
A hundred percent.
I'm just agreeing with you Ahundred percent.
And I know it took a lot out ofthe kids and and I have two
boys and I know they bounce backand forth we had this really
weird schedule and I know ittook a toll on them but I know
they they love both of us andthey just wanted to see peace.
Cary Jacobson (05:26):
Right, yeah, and that's often so much.
What the kids want, right, isto to have peace between their
parents, um, so that they're notfeeling like necessarily in the
middle of that.
Jeff Kolez (05:41):
A hundred percent 100%.
Cary Jacobson (05:44):
You've described your divorce as a soul wound.
What did that feel like for youin the early days?
Jeff Kolez (05:52):
Just discombobulation, I didn't know
which way was up.
Like I just like again, I justthought the divorce was going to
be splitting the goods andmoving on.
But it went much, much deeperthan that.
Um, I lost friends of 10, 15years because they didn't they,
(06:12):
they said they didn't want toside with anybody, and and um,
and it was it.
It impacted me in every area oflife.
It impacted my relationships,it impacted my ability to make
money, to hold on to money, tophysically like I had a hard
(06:38):
time sleeping.
So I consider, when you look atall of that, that is the soul
expressing itself in thephysical world.
So, going down to that level,it was like I don't know who I
am.
So how do I move forward fromthere?
I thought I did everythingright, I followed the
(07:02):
instructions on the packet.
I thought I did everythingright, I followed the
instructions on the packet, andthen I found out I had a cake
that didn't rise, to torturethat metaphor a little bit.
And then what do you do whenyou follow the instructions on
the packet and it doesn't work,what do you do at that point?
So I looked really deep inmyself and I had to figure out
(07:24):
what I was doing wrong in orderto rebuild that life.
So what it felt like was almostlike being underwater and not
sure which way is up, not surewhich way to swim to work
towards air.
Cary Jacobson (07:43):
Yeah, did you have a professional team that
you worked with throughout thedivorce process?
Jeff Kolez (07:52):
I had.
Well, I had lawyers.
I went through two sets oflawyers.
I went through, we tried to domediation.
It could have been very simplewith mediation.
I guess we decided not to gothat way.
So, yeah, uh, mediation, andthen it went to lawyers.
(08:13):
Um, while I was in that process, I was like emotionally burned
out.
So I started working withsomebody who who helps with the
emotions.
Um, so I had you know thatcoach, I had lawyers.
I think that's probably it.
(08:34):
Oh and I heard somebody to workwith me physically so that I,
you know, took that energy outat the gym rather than having it
at home all the time having itat home all the time, right?
Cary Jacobson (08:54):
Well, it sounds like you, you know, had the
support of a good network ofprofessionals, kind of
throughout the process,depending on kind of where you
were in that process.
Jeff, I'm curious, what madeyou realize that logic was not
going to fix the pain that youwere experiencing through this
process?
Jeff Kolez (09:11):
Like I was saying the question before, a soul
wound is not fixed by logic.
A divorce is such an emotionalbattleground.
It's it's all of a sudden.
It's two people who used tolove each other who don't, and
they know each other'svulnerabilities.
(09:33):
And in a divorce in my divorceanyway I guess I can't speak in
too many generalities the personwho reacts last is the one who
always gets penalized.
So my I I don't want to accuseher too much, but my ex would
(09:56):
provoke me and I would react andthen she would go look he's,
you know he's reacting.
So going through the process,those emotions were used against
me and I was trying to applylogic like, look, I paid for
(10:19):
half of the house, so I shouldget for half the money, whereas
she was coming from the angle oflook, he is reacting
emotionally.
So I found I had to be centeredall of the time and if I wasn't
, I found my ex would use thatagainst me, those emotional
(10:40):
reactions, and the court pickedup on that.
And the court picked up on that.
And that's what the courtlooked at is when I was, when I
would be, when I would reactemotionally.
No, there was nothing likereally bad.
But you know, when somebodyaccuses you of being a bad
(11:05):
father or, you know, tells yourfriends that it was an abusive
relationship when it wasn't, youreact like you're.
You're angry.
So, um, um, the logic is't helpyou there, because emotions
(11:31):
aren't a logic.
That's what I'm trying to say.
Cary Jacobson (11:34):
Right, absolutely .
And you know, I think peoplemiss the fact that the divorce
process is so emotional and wehave to like make sure that we
pay attention to that so that weapproach issues in a more
(11:59):
logical way by taking thoseemotions out to the extent that
that's possible.
But I understand that.
You know, sometimes it iscommon for someone to push those
buttons because they know whichbuttons to push, looking for a
reason, so that they cancapitalize on that.
Jeff Kolez (12:20):
A hundred percent.
And I imagine that aligns withthe type of lawyer you get.
And I imagine that aligns withthe type of lawyer you get.
And I imagine there aredifferent types of lawyers.
Some try to be collaborative,some try to be combative.
Cary Jacobson (12:36):
Right.
Jeff Kolez (12:38):
And I think my ex hired a very combative lawyer to
push those, to try to pushthose buttons as much as
possible.
And what a damaging process itis.
Like, do you really want todestroy the, the parent of the
other parent of your kids?
Like does that, does that makeany sense for a couple of
(13:01):
hundred bucks a month?
Like that, that doesn't seem.
That never made.
That never sat right with me.
Cary Jacobson (13:06):
That doesn't seem that never sat right with me
and I 100% agree that it doesoften depend on the type of
lawyer you get or that youdecide to work with, because
(13:28):
most of the time the lawyer isthe one kind of driving the
process and giving the advice onhow to handle certain things
and my experience in being anattorney and doing this work,
I've had many situations wherethe client didn't even know what
the attorney was doing andisn't always kind of behind that
in requesting that those actsbeing taken.
It's just how the attorneyapproaches certain cases and
(13:52):
unfortunately not that it hashappened with all attorneys, but
in many situations they aredoing it until they, you know,
until the well runs dry and can,you know, resolve the case and
get out or get out of the case.
So now I know that you have,you know, after your divorce
(14:19):
that you've been kind of workingin with other individuals and
helping them with recoveringfrom force, and I'd love for you
to share your five-step processwith us about how to recover.
Jeff Kolez (14:40):
Yes, I'm happy to do that.
This is a process I kind ofdeveloped over a few years.
I didn't have it going into it.
I didn't work with somebody whospecifically helped with the
emotional recovery through adivorce.
But before I start talkingabout the five processes,
(15:03):
there's really three things thatyou need to bring into this as
somebody who's looking torecover.
And that's number one curiosity.
And what I mean by that is theability to ask why of yourself
and there's some really hardquestions you need to look at
(15:26):
when you're dealing with theemotions of a divorce, and
especially something that runsso deep With myself.
Why did I attract a partner whowas so challenging through the
marriage and the divorce?
Number two courage.
You need real strength to lookinside of yourself.
(15:48):
You're going to be like thatprocess of being upside down in
the water and not knowing whichway to swim.
There were days I did not wantto get out of bed.
(16:12):
I was depressed, I washeartbroken, and when you're in
that place you need to keeptaking steps forward to get out
of it.
And number three determinationthat grit to keep going forward.
It's so easy to give up andjust numb out.
There were when I was goingthrough this I got, I went
(16:34):
through antidepressants, I had amarijuana prescription and it
was just so easy to numb out.
But that's not going to moveyou forward.
All you're going to do is stayin the same place.
So the five steps this is thefive steps.
Number one build out boundaries.
I call it the outer gate.
(16:54):
So keep your ex at arm's length.
You would be amazed at how manymen are still going over to
their ex's house fixing gutters,um, hanging out, you know, um
having dinners, sleeping withtheir exes, you know, being that
(17:14):
emotional, um, uh, being thereemotionally for her.
You really can't do that.
You have to make that hardseparation.
So the first step is justbuilding that distance.
Number two is starting torecognize the patterns.
(17:40):
That oh and sorry.
One more point about the gateis setting those boundaries.
One of the tips I suggest isusing something called Greyrock,
and sometimes your ex will tryto push your buttons, but you've
(18:02):
got to not show.
Not show her that or him that.
That reaction is that they'regetting a reaction when they
push their, when they push yourbuttons.
So there's a technique calledgray rocking, where you, she,
says something provocative andyou just go okay, or you don't
(18:22):
react to it and you just go okay, or you don't react to it.
And that is one of the hardestparts is is not reacting when
somebody calls you a bad father,a bad husband, whatever it
might be.
It's called gray rockingbecause just imagine a pebble on
the beach.
None of them are any moreinteresting than the other.
(18:44):
Okay, so you set yourboundaries.
Then you have to start noticingthe the, the other.
Okay, so you set yourboundaries.
Then you have to start noticingthe patterns.
So if you are reacting to yourex calling you a bad father,
well, why are you having thatreaction?
What's going on underneath Ifyou feel depressed every day at
a certain time?
(19:05):
What's going on when that'shappening?
So you're recognizing thoseemotional triggers and their
signals.
They're not I wouldn't look atthem as something negative, but
just what those triggers are.
The next thing is you developthat, that conversation with
(19:26):
yourself, and I call it theconversation with the heart.
How do I make sure this doesn'thappen again Somewhere along
your life?
Your intuition guided you intothis place.
Why did it guide you there andhow do you make sure it never
happens again?
So how did I get here?
(19:47):
And then from there, you reallystart to take responsibility
for your story and your life.
How did I get here?
How do I make sure it didn'thappen again Before that?
It can feel really like you'rebeing tossed from one side to
the other.
You're running from what feelsbad to what feels good.
(20:08):
But if you really answer thatquestion, how did I end up here?
You're really taking ownershipof the next step.
The step after that isreconnecting with your heart,
learning to trust that intuition, and sometimes I still get
stuck here.
My intuition tells me one thingand I did the opposite.
(20:31):
So you're from this place.
You're working on those oldbeliefs.
A lot of the time they'recarried from childhood the being
unseen, unheard, the beingunseen, unheard, unworthy and
they're those old wounds thatevery, every single one of us
(20:52):
carry.
And if you don't heal it atthis point, you're going to
carry that into your nextrelationship, or you already
have and you're noticing thatthose patterns are still there.
This from from here, it'sreally about learning to be
grateful for whatever yourdivorce taught you, and I know
that sounds really hard whenyou're going through the divorce
(21:14):
.
But if you can really learn toum, find what that divorce
taught you, you'll.
You'll be really you'll.
You'll come out of it ahead.
So for mine, I was never taughthow to have a healthy
relationship, so I was alwaystrying to fix my partners.
(21:36):
When I recognized that pattern,I realized that I didn't have
to be somebody who fixessomebody else.
The last step is what I call theforge.
So you're building out your newlife, you're bringing on new
relationships, but you're doingit from a place where you're
listening, almost through thosescars that you've healed.
(21:58):
It's better to move forwardwith scars rather than the
wounds.
If you're leading with scars,that's wisdom.
You're leading from.
This relationship didn't work inthe past because of this and
you go, oh okay, well, I'll trythis other thing, and that's
(22:22):
real wisdom and that's what Ithink you can pass down to your
kids.
For some reason well, in myexample, I wasn't given a lot of
wisdom around how to have arelationship, so I was figuring
that out on my own, and so onceI had that bad relationship, I
(22:46):
was able to take my own wisdom,listen to my own intuition and
really move forward with thatLike listen to myself and from
there you really build trustwith yourself.
Maybe you didn't have thattrust before, that trust to
listen to your relation, your,your, your intuition.
(23:07):
But once you've been throughthe ringer, you learn to trust
that.
So that's the five steps.
Cary Jacobson (23:21):
I appreciate that .
Thank you.
That's helpful for anyone whois coming out of a divorce
process and looking to kind ofrebuild and hopefully improve
their relationships goingforward.
I would love for you to sharehow your life has changed since
(23:42):
going through that process andnow that you've gone through
those five steps.
Jeff Kolez (23:49):
I've had a relationship, for I've been in a
relationship for coming up on13 years and it.
You know, we've had ourchallenges.
But going through those fivesteps, we work on it together,
we go and it's.
We work on it together and wego.
You know, this is our woundshowing up.
(24:10):
How do we not live from thiswound and and and how do we
decide that we want to betogether?
You know, and even even thequestion of do we want to be
together comes up still notstill, but it has come up in the
past and we've been able towork through it.
It's a very deep relationship.
We know each other very, veryintimately and deeply.
(24:33):
We've been together longer thanI was in my marriage.
She also went through a divorce.
So you know, we both came withwith our wounds, but we're not
leading from those woundsanymore.
I have a wonderful relationshipwith my kids.
It's very intimate as well.
(24:56):
They share what they want toshare, but it's their lives.
They both went throughrelationship troubles of their
own, um, and they were able tocome to me and say, hey, how do
(25:17):
I get out of this?
How do I?
How do I, how do I make surethis doesn't happen again, um,
and you know, you know they'renavigating that and learning to
live their lives and learninghow to have relationships.
I've really tried to pass downas much wisdom as I could about
how to have those positive kindof relationships.
(25:39):
One of the things that reallydecides I'm speaking
specifically about men here howsuccessful a man is in his life
is the partner he chooses.
So I think it's really it'ssuper important for for um
parents to really talk about um,how to have that really
(26:02):
positive kind of relationship.
Cary Jacobson (26:07):
That's.
I'm sure that you know.
Your kids have gone throughthis.
They are obviously impacted aswell, and so helping them learn
how to have those positiverelationships is super helpful.
Relationships is super helpful.
If you could go back and speakto the version of yourself, you
(26:36):
know, at the beginning of thedivorce process, is there
anything that you would say tothat person that may have
potentially and I know that someof it is out of their control
because you can't control howthe other partner kind of
approaches the process Is thereanything that you would tell
that earlier version of yourself?
Jeff Kolez (26:53):
I don't know.
I would have listened, I waspretty stubborn, and maybe that
stubbornness was necessary, Idon't know.
But I would have said do yourbest and then let go of the
results.
Don't know, but I would havesaid do your best and then let
go of the results.
Um, the, everything I foughtfor I did not get, everything I
allowed to happen happened in myfavor.
(27:15):
So, um, you know, do your best,make sure that things that are
important are taken care of.
Have your time with the kids.
Um, as a father, it is soimportant to be in your kids
lives, um, and and so do yourbest with that.
(27:35):
Everything else is out of yourcontrol.
So, um, um, you can't sweat.
You can't fight against whatisn't in your control.
You're just going to exhaustyourself trying to swim upstream
against the rapids.
So that would be the advice Iwould give myself Focus on
(27:58):
rebuilding your life rather thanfighting for what's what's
already lost, what's alreadylost, Got it Well.
Cary Jacobson (28:06):
That's very insightful and I appreciate that
advice for anybody who may begoing through this journey now
for the first time.
So thank you so much for yourvulnerability and strength and
sharing your story.
Your story reminds me that youknow, a divorce is not the end
(28:26):
of the story, but just the endof a chapter.
And so, for all of those whoare listening, Jeff, can you
share how people can find you ifthey are interested in learning
more about you and yourservices?
Jeff Kolez (28:38):
Absolutely Divorce-daddy.
com.
I have some services there.
I work one-on-one and I've gotsome group coaching as well.
Cary Jacobson (28:49):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much and for thoselistening.
If you're looking for moretools to support your divorce
journey, visit our stand store.
The link will be in our shownotes for practical link
resources.
Be sure to check out ourwebsite at jacobsonfamilylaw.
com to learn more about thedivorce process and mediation in
Maryland, and be sure tosubscribe to Divorce Diaries,
(29:12):
lessons from the Trenches, wherewe bring you real conversations
with people who've been throughit and come out on the other
side stronger.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,and until next time, take care.
Intro/Close (29:25):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.
com or call 443-726-4912 forsupport and guidance.
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