August 5, 2025 • 28 mins
The deepest wounds in our relationships often trace back to our earliest experiences. When divorce happens, these hidden patterns suddenly emerge, demanding our attention. In this transformative episode of Divorce Diaries, host Cary Jacobson, attorney and mediator with Jacobson Family Law, is joined by somatic trauma recovery guide Danielle Bird as she reveals why divorce acts as a powerful catalyst for exposing attachment wounds we've carried since childhood.
For anyone finding themselves repeating painful relationship patterns even after divorce, this episode offers both compassionate understanding and concrete tools for change. It's not about fixing something broken—it's about reconnecting with your body's original blueprint for love and security that's been there all along.
Visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com to learn more.
Visit jacobsonworkshop.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Danielle Bird (00:00):
When we experience divorce, all of our
wounds, anything that'sunprocessed, anything that
hasn't been looked at comes upto the surface Because it might
be for the first time in a longtime, depending on how long you
were together in that marriagethe first time you're really
alone and really seeing yourselfand only hearing yourself, and
(00:25):
there's complicated grief tothat as well.
Intro/Close (00:30):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Cary
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:52):
Welcome back to another episode of Divorce
Diaries Lessons from theTrenches where we talk about the
mess, the meaning and themoments of clarity that come
with life after divorce.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,family law attorney, mediator
and passionate about helpingpeople through the process in
the most peaceful mannerpossible.
(01:13):
Today, we're exploringsomething that often hides
behind the surface of ourbreakups insecure attachment,
why we chase, why we may shutdown and why it often feels like
love may never feel safe.
Our guest, danielle Bird, asomatic trauma recovery guide
(01:33):
who works at the intersection ofneuroscience, attachment repair
and nervous system regulation.
Danielle helps individuals andcouples unlearn old survival
patterns and root back intotheir body's original blueprint
for love and connection.
She's also the creator of theno Matter what who's Watching
(01:54):
Circle, a space devoted toembodied healing and authentic
expression.
Danielle, thank you so much forbeing here.
I appreciate it.
Danielle Bird (02:03):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
What a beautiful introduction,thank you.
Cary Jacobson (02:07):
Can you please explain to our listeners how
insecure attachment may shapeour relationships, especially in
the context of divorce?
Danielle Bird (02:17):
Absolutely.
That is such a good question,and one of the main things I
like to bring forward when wetalk about attachment in general
is that there can often be alot of shame felt as an adult in
the recognition of oh, I dofeel insecure, as maybe you're
(02:39):
in your 50s right, you're inyour 60s, you're've lived quite
a life, and so you can kind offeel behind in that way.
But in reality, in the body, inthe nervous system, in our
neurology, the way that ourattachment is seeded is so early
on in our experience of life.
Oftentimes the foundation iscreated between the ages of zero
(03:02):
and two, and you don't have asay with how you're being seeded
, anchored in to whichattachment style at that time,
and so it is one of the almostonly things that you actually
haven't chosen for yourself.
It is entirely reliant on howother people responded to you in
(03:27):
your early years, and sooftentimes what happens is that
in moments where we have crisiswhether that is a divorce,
whether that is any type oftraumatic experience that is
shocking or unexpected, can alsobe what we don't receive too.
(03:49):
These wounds come up and theycould have been hidden for the
majority of your life.
You may not have been aware Alot of the times.
They can seem like they arepart of our personality.
In actuality, they are woundsstuck in our body, and so the
(04:11):
different types of attachmentwill show up at different times
for different people, for lackof a better word.
That is, feeling anxiouslyattached, so needing that close
proximity and suffocating theother partner, without
intentionally doing so and notreally understanding what's
(04:33):
happening inside of the bodythat leads us to do that, or
being on the opposite side wherewe aren't paying attention to
them.
We're quite spacious in ourinteraction, which is called a
dismissive avoidant.
There's also a type where weoscillate between the two, kind
of like a roller coaster thatwe're not really sure what way
(04:55):
it's about to turn, and that'scalled the fearful avoidant, and
that is a mix of both.
It's also what is known as thedisorganized attachment of our
wounds.
Anything that's unprocessed,anything that hasn't been looked
at, comes up to the surfacebecause it might be for the
(05:19):
first time in a long timedepending on how long you were
together in that marriage thefirst time you're really alone
and really seeing yourself andonly hearing yourself, and
there's complicated grief tothat as well right.
Cary Jacobson (05:36):
How does someone find out what type of attachment
personality they may have?
Danielle Bird (05:41):
I love this question.
There's a lot of different waysyou can actually do that, but
one of the easiest ways I findis just introspecting on how do
you respond to conflictspecifically, and it doesn't
only need to be in a romanticsetting.
It doesn't have to be that way.
It can also be with your family, with your coworkers, with your
(06:06):
boss, with your neighbors,because attachment style isn't
just romantic, it's literallyhow we relate to anything, your
own body included.
So there's lots of layers tothis, but if you experience
conflict by wanting to reallycling and feeling like I'm going
(06:26):
to be abandoned, right, let mebecome what I think this other
person really desires of me sothat they'll stay with me.
And then you stay really closeto them so that they'll stay
with me, and then you stayreally close to them so that you
can monitor it's called hypervigilantly, like scanning every
nuance of them to confirm thatthat we're okay right, that
they're not gonna believe me,that they want me, that they're
gonna choose me.
(06:46):
We become very preoccupied withthat, almost like when horses
are running races and they havethose blinders on or just tunnel
vision on them and we lose oursense of self in that.
This is because growing upthere was inconsistency in the
parenting.
So parents were there sometimes.
There weren't other times andwe weren't really sure what was
(07:08):
happening.
There was lots of inconsistency.
Maybe you actually wereabandoned or there was just
perceived abandonment.
That shows up a lot of thetimes for a parent who might
physically be there but they'renot actually present, right.
So there's that felt sense ofabandonment, really waiting for
for the shoe to drop, thatsensation Like I can't relax.
(07:28):
I need to constantly be, be onif you really feel like you have
to show up perfectly or elseyour partner will leave you.
So you stay close and then inthat you really push them away.
That if that resonates with you, that's an anxious, preoccupied
attachment, okay.
And then if you are a dismissiveavoidant and conflict occurs,
(07:52):
your inner world probably lookslike this isn't my
responsibility, why is Cary soupset?
Why is she making me deal withher feelings?
These are not mine to soothe,it's not my responsibility.
I even feel overwhelmed by yourexpression and desire for
closeness, especially when it'sin the form of accountability.
But this is because, actually,dismissive avoidance parents
(08:16):
profoundly neglected thememotionally.
And so if you're a dismissiveavoidant as an adult, the other
partner's desire for closeness,especially emotionally, it
triggers in them thisunprocessed shame wound of
overwhelm.
And so what happens is that ina dismissive avoidant they go.
(08:40):
This inner awareness of myoverwhelm, of you asking me to
hold your feelings, makes mefeel like I'm not good enough
and so I can't express thatbecause I'm overwhelmed with
that shame and I'm flooded withthat and so I shut down.
And so what happens on thesurface is that we see
dismissive, avoided partnerspull away.
(09:01):
They might even look likethey're cold or they don't care.
That is not the reality ofwhat's happening inside of their
body.
They really care.
They don't know what to do withthat.
They don't know, they don'thave the emotional literature to
be able to understand what'shappening inside and express
that, because there's so muchshame, and shame as an emotion.
(09:23):
Yes, the antidote is to expressit, but it takes a lot of
bravery and it takes a lot ofnervous system capacity to hold,
because it's so debilitating toour system.
It moves us very quickly into afreeze response, and so if you
grew up very neglected, thenthat pattern repeats, not only
(09:44):
to yourself right, I'm notexpressing my needs, I'm pushing
them down but also to thepartner in front of me, so I
will neglect you as well.
So the dismissive really pullsaway, the anxious really pulls
towards, and then the fearfulavoidant is a mix of the two.
And with the disorganizedattachment, the fearful avoidant
, this is where you have thehighest amount of what are known
(10:06):
as the trauma responses.
Right, we talk about survivalpatterns.
We're really talking about thefight nervous system state, the
flight, the freeze, the fawning,which is the people pleasing or
appeasing, and the shutdownnervous system, trauma response.
And so this, this pattern ofattachment, will oscillate
(10:27):
between the two, so there willbe perhaps a very strong
reactive blowing up.
Right, the dismissive avoid, orsorry, not the dismissive avoid,
but the disorganized attachmentis not afraid of conflict.
They actually will move into it.
However, it's very chaotic,it's very this is the pattern
that is actually the mostmisunderstood as narcissistic.
(10:48):
But it's not narcissisticbecause they actually care and
narcissists real, truenarcissists don't.
They're not having thatintrospective moment but on the
surface it can seem veryself-centered because it's so
argumentative, and so theyoscillate really between blowing
up in that fight way,especially cutting with words,
(11:08):
to fully shutting down theirnervous system states, not
sharing their inner experienceand really reactively setting
boundaries or sharing abouttheir needs, and then dismissing
their own inner experience inthat.
So inside of a disorganizedattachment is this yearning
almost incessantly, almostobsessively, to have closeness
(11:31):
but simultaneously not sharing,not coming forward, not bringing
anything to the other person.
Cary Jacobson (11:39):
Got it, so that's very interesting, and all of
that is based on things that mayhave happened to someone when
they were very young and didn'teven really know that these
things were impacting them.
Danielle Bird (11:52):
Absolutely.
Cary Jacobson (11:54):
Yeah, can you explain the link between the
attachment trauma and thenervous system dysregulation?
Danielle Bird (12:03):
Absolutely so.
When someone has an attachmentwound, what that looks like in
the body is imprinting, sort oflike if you step on cement
before it's solidified, right,there's imprinting there of both
unprocessed primary emotions.
(12:23):
So, whether it is overwhelm,whether it is devastation,
whether it is panic, whether itis confusion, right, because
imagine a child is born andthey're not receiving what they
need as basic necessities, butthey don't have the language or
even the neurology to understandwhat's happening.
(12:45):
They don't have the ability togo hmm, this isn't about me,
right?
So they internalize it, theyimprint it into themselves, and
so what that looks like isstuckness, and that's another
word to say trauma.
Trauma isn't an experienceoutside of us, it's actually the
imprinting of it in us.
It's the clenching, it's thebracing, it's the holding of
(13:07):
that in our body system, and so,on one piece, it is unprocessed
primary emotion that gets stuck.
But then we also have theadrenalized nervous system
response that gets uncompleted,because to not receive your
needs means that, especially ata very young age, when we can't
externalize as adults it's alittle different, but it still
(13:27):
works.
Similarly we become the threatbecause we hold that imprinting
in our body and so the nervoussystem.
In the most simple terms, whatit does is it goes am I safe or
am I not?
All day, in many different ways, constantly right,
automatically.
Whether that's a socialinteraction, a thought form that
(13:49):
you have, an emotional responseyou're experiencing, whatever
it is, it's constantly justgoing am I safe or am I not?
Am I safe or am I not?
And when you hold belief woundsright let's say, the parent
never checked in on you andemotionally neglected you you
are going to have a belief woundof, because it makes sense to
(14:09):
believe that that would be thereason why they're not showing
up.
It must be me.
And so when you have beliefwounds and they get housed in
your unconscious, in yoursubconscious, in your body,
because you're so young, you'renot even consciously engaging
yet.
It stays there until you rewireit.
(14:30):
And so, as an adult, you holdall of these different wounds in
your body and you're like whyam I getting so triggered during
the day?
Why am I so activated?
Why does this irritate me somuch?
Why do I just feel so sad, sodepressed, so anxious?
It's because you have kind oflike a smorgasbord of different
wounds that are still in yourbody and they'll stay there.
(14:52):
And so what happens is all allthrough the day.
You have certain cues in yourmind with this part of your
brain that's called the amygdala.
I like to think of it like thered flag center and it holds all
of those red flags and anytimeyou come close to any sensory
cue that looks like that redflag, it immediately speaks to
your nervous system.
Your nervous system says, okay,there's an attack on guard.
(15:15):
Okay, but there's nothinghappening outside of you.
The attack is inside the system.
And so those survival patternsof fight, flight, freeze, fun
and shutdown are constantlypumping cortisol stress hormones
through your body.
And so you start to brace.
But you're not bracing fromlife, you're bracing from your
(15:36):
own inner experience.
And what happens is that theneurology that you have, the
system of how the nervous systemworks, keeps it in place, and
this is by what we call thereticular activating system.
And this is by what we call thereticular activating system.
You can, I like to call it therazzle dazzle, but it's this
(15:57):
filter between the subconsciousso the subconscious is in the
body and then the conscious mind, like we're talking right now,
and what it does is that itprograms this part of your brain
that's called the default modenetwork.
So let's say what the systemdoes when it's just on automatic
, right, so defaulted.
What is it just doing in thebackground, right?
So what happens is that,whatever belief wounds you hold
(16:19):
in your body and yoursubconscious I'm not good enough
the razzle dazzle, thereticular activating system, is
going to confirm throughout yourday that belief.
And it does that because it'sefficient, because it also does
that for positive beliefs, right, so it does serve us.
But when we hold that trauma,it really doesn't, because the
(16:39):
nervous system is constantlygetting threat cues right, and
so science calls this right, theconfirmation bias right.
They call the placebo effect,spirituality calls it
manifesting.
Like it's all.
We're all talking about thesame thing in different
industries, different fields,and it's that whatever you hold
in your body subconsciouslybecomes the program that you
(17:02):
seek out.
And so your partner could doseven things in the day that
disprove that belief wound, butyou're not going to pay
attention to that.
You're only going to payattention to the one moment that
they confirmed a subconsciouswound, until you actually get to
rewire that subconsciously.
Cary Jacobson (17:23):
And how do people go about rewiring?
Danielle Bird (17:26):
Yes, I love that there's so many different ways
to rewire.
What I do with my clients isthat we get to know what their
senses are the most, as somepeople prefer to rewire the
belief or the thought or theaction or the emotion.
But one of my favorite toolsfor this is not only the auto
(17:49):
suggestion reprogramming, whichI'll tell you about, but also
what I like to call CPR foremotional processing, because
what happens when we getactivated into these survival
responses is that we live in ourhead because the nervous system
says I'm unsafe, but it's thebody that's unsafe, so we won't
(18:11):
live where the pain is.
So we will basically be cut offat the neck and try to process
our emotions in our mind and getoverwhelmed by that, because
we're only using our head as aspatial like.
Our head is so small comparedto the rest of our body, and so
what I like to do with clientsis that we get really good at
(18:31):
metabolizing emotions and I canactually share that resource
with you.
If you want, for free, I'llgive you the link for that.
It's called CPR three reallyeasy steps to emotionally
process.
It's beyond the scope of whatwe can dive into in this
conversation, but I recommendanybody just take screenshots of
it, keep it on your phone sothat you can just have that in
your pocket and you can try itanytime.
(18:54):
But for an easy rewiring tool isauto-suggestion, where you take
any belief wound that you have.
Right, it could be I amdisconnected, I am not good
enough, I am abandoned, and itcan also be I will be so.
I am or I will be.
What you want to do is you wantto start to utilize this when
(19:19):
your subconscious is most active.
So that's either an hour withinwaking up, an hour before going
to bed.
You know when you're kind ofsleeping and you're loopy, you
wake up, you're still loopy.
That's actually an indicationthat your subconscious is more
active.
Where you kind of wake up, likein a dream, almost right, your
subconscious is more activeduring those times.
It can also happen after youget into a flow state.
So maybe a flow state for youis like watching a movie that
(19:42):
you really like, could bemeditation, could be a walk
outside.
It looks different for everyone, but you don't want to do it
during your work day becauseyour conscious mind is more
active.
So that's first, and then let'ssay we go with the example of
I'm not good enough.
We want to switch it to thepositive, not because I want you
to gaslight yourself or we'regoing with toxic positivity, but
(20:03):
because the subconscious takesthings literally.
Because if I say, don't thinkof a pink flower, what are you
thinking about Pink flower?
Right, it just takes a literal.
So it's not to gaslightyourself into.
I believe that I'm beautiful,but like, just that's what
you're really inputting intothat program.
So you want to go.
I am good enough.
And you want to go because andwhat you want to do is you want
(20:24):
to find experiential evidenceacross as many areas of your
life as you can for momentswhere you actually have felt
good enough, because the razzle,dazzle, the reticular
activating system, there aremoments where you have felt good
enough, but you have nothighlighted them because of the
belief wound.
So if you take a moment toreally just okay, pause when was
(20:45):
the last time I felt goodenough?
Or when, across my whole life,have I felt good enough, you can
go in there and find thoseexperiences that might look like
oh, I felt good enough when Iwas driving in the coffee line
and someone bought my coffee,right, it can be an experience
just like that.
So you put that experience down, you write that down.
You can also say it in front ofthe mirror, you can do while
(21:06):
you're dancing.
There's many different ways youcan do it.
So you write that down I amgood enough because the girl
paid for my coffee the other day.
And then what you want to do,because you're utilizing your
visualization through this,because you're revisiting memory
, and the subconscious languageisn't this type of language.
That's quite why you saw theflower.
(21:26):
It's actually visualization,sensation and emotion.
And where do we see all ofthose in memory?
Right, yeah, and so we bring inthe memory.
In that moment, I'm good enoughbecause she bought me a coffee.
And we want to drop intofeeling.
How did I feel in that moment?
So, still revisiting the memory, I felt el, elated.
(21:50):
I felt grateful, right yeah,grateful, exactly.
And then you want to drop into,okay, and then physiology.
What did I feel in my body?
How did I experience thosefeelings in my body?
So we want to go into thatsomatic language of I felt like
my chest started to open up.
I felt like I started to feellighter.
(22:11):
I wanted to, like, dance alittle bit, I started to move my
spine a bit more, and whatwe're doing there is we're
speaking the language of thenervous system, because the
nervous system is in our bodyright, it's the brain and the
spinal cord but the majority ofyour information pathways in
your nervous system actually gofrom your extremities and your
organs to your brain.
80% of them are going from yourmuscles and the rest of your
(22:35):
body up to your brain, versus20% are going from your brain
downwards.
This is why, if you feel unsafe,you can't gaslight yourself
into feeling safe.
Your body's saying I'm having adifferent experience, I don't
know what you're talking about,but I don't feel good.
Right, but we can show our mindthat we're safe.
We can show our mind that wecan feel good, and that's what
(22:56):
this auto-suggestion does.
And so what you want to do isflip it to the positive.
I am good enough Experientialevidence across as many areas of
your life as you can.
You want to go for anywherebetween 5 to 15 per day.
You don't have to do it morningand night.
Just choose one and commit andbe consistent, because the
wounds were programmed throughconsistency, so they're going to
(23:16):
be reprogrammed throughconsistency as well.
And then the emotion, the bodysensation, specifically, and
that's that's what it does.
That's how it works.
That's one way to do that.
That's awesome.
Cary Jacobson (23:31):
So, as we're about to wrap up, what advice
would you give someone who mayfeel stuck in the same like
painful relationship loop, um,which I'm assuming has to do
with their attachment style, um,even after they've gone through
a divorce process?
Danielle Bird (23:52):
Absolutely so.
If you are stuck in the samepainful loop, it is because
there is a belief wound.
Another way to say that isthere is a part of your
consciousness, there's a part ofyou inside that is stuck in
that response.
It's stuck in the memory, in avery embodied state of that
experience.
And so one the emotionalprocessing PDF that I'll send a
(24:15):
link to that get really good atdoing that, because what it does
is essentially, you connectwith that experience of
stuckness, you go into your bodythrough some prompts that I
have and you explore that andyou move that energy naturally,
because what happens is thatpeople go, I feel shitty and I
just want to move through it.
But what happens is that peoplego, I feel shitty and I just
want to move through it.
But what we want to do is I feelawful in my body, I actually
(24:38):
create space for it and then,without forcing and allowing
myself to be curious of it, itnaturally is going to change,
and then I'm not resistingsomething, because it's never
the stuckness, it's theresistance of it that creates
the perpetuation of it, and thestuckness is actually it could
be a younger part of you thathas no verbal language to it
(25:00):
right, and so we want to repairthat right.
If, if the, the, the challengeis the disconnect, the stuckness
is a representation of adisconnect somewhere in your
inner system.
And so we want to do is we wantto repair that by
experientially and embodiedteaching that part, that to
remember that your whole andthat creates an embodied
(25:25):
remembrance of that.
So there's lots of differentways to do it.
It kind of sounds paradoxical,but I promise it works.
Cary Jacobson (25:38):
No, I appreciate that that's very helpful and
we'll be sure to link thatresource in our show notes.
Well, daniel, thank you so muchfor helping us see that those
secure attachments isn't justluck.
It's something that we have topractice, and it starts with our
nervous systems.
For those listening, how canpeople find out more about you
and your services?
Danielle Bird (25:56):
Absolutely.
You can find me across anysocial, usually TikTok or
Instagram at the Danielle Bird,so T-H-E-D-A-N-I-E-L-L-E-B-I-R-D
, or you can find me on mywebsite, which is just
wwwdaniellebirdcom.
So, first, last name, and, yeah, check out the CPR resource
(26:20):
that's going to support you inreally getting beyond that
stuckness into your body in asafe way so that you can
complete emotional cycles, whichis the number one thing that
will regulate your nervoussystem is completing those
emotional cycles Awesome.
Cary Jacobson (26:34):
Thank you so much , and for our listeners, be sure
to subscribe to Divorce Diaries, lessons from the Trenches and
share with anyone who may findthis as a great resource.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,and until next time, stay
grounded and take care of yourheart.
Intro/Close (26:51):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
When we experience divorce, all of our
wounds, anything that'sunprocessed, anything that
hasn't been looked at comes upto the surface Because it might
be for the first time in a longtime, depending on how long you
were together in that marriagethe first time you're really
alone and really seeing yourselfand only hearing yourself, and
(00:25):
there's complicated grief tothat as well.
Intro/Close (00:30):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Cary
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:52):
Welcome back to another episode of Divorce
Diaries Lessons from theTrenches where we talk about the
mess, the meaning and themoments of clarity that come
with life after divorce.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,family law attorney, mediator
and passionate about helpingpeople through the process in
the most peaceful mannerpossible.
(01:13):
Today, we're exploringsomething that often hides
behind the surface of ourbreakups insecure attachment,
why we chase, why we may shutdown and why it often feels like
love may never feel safe.
Our guest, danielle Bird, asomatic trauma recovery guide
(01:33):
who works at the intersection ofneuroscience, attachment repair
and nervous system regulation.
Danielle helps individuals andcouples unlearn old survival
patterns and root back intotheir body's original blueprint
for love and connection.
She's also the creator of theno Matter what who's Watching
(01:54):
Circle, a space devoted toembodied healing and authentic
expression.
Danielle, thank you so much forbeing here.
I appreciate it.
Danielle Bird (02:03):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
What a beautiful introduction,thank you.
Cary Jacobson (02:07):
Can you please explain to our listeners how
insecure attachment may shapeour relationships, especially in
the context of divorce?
Danielle Bird (02:17):
Absolutely.
That is such a good question,and one of the main things I
like to bring forward when wetalk about attachment in general
is that there can often be alot of shame felt as an adult in
the recognition of oh, I dofeel insecure, as maybe you're
(02:39):
in your 50s right, you're inyour 60s, you're've lived quite
a life, and so you can kind offeel behind in that way.
But in reality, in the body, inthe nervous system, in our
neurology, the way that ourattachment is seeded is so early
on in our experience of life.
Oftentimes the foundation iscreated between the ages of zero
(03:02):
and two, and you don't have asay with how you're being seeded
, anchored in to whichattachment style at that time,
and so it is one of the almostonly things that you actually
haven't chosen for yourself.
It is entirely reliant on howother people responded to you in
(03:27):
your early years, and sooftentimes what happens is that
in moments where we have crisiswhether that is a divorce,
whether that is any type oftraumatic experience that is
shocking or unexpected, can alsobe what we don't receive too.
(03:49):
These wounds come up and theycould have been hidden for the
majority of your life.
You may not have been aware Alot of the times.
They can seem like they arepart of our personality.
In actuality, they are woundsstuck in our body, and so the
(04:11):
different types of attachmentwill show up at different times
for different people, for lackof a better word.
That is, feeling anxiouslyattached, so needing that close
proximity and suffocating theother partner, without
intentionally doing so and notreally understanding what's
(04:33):
happening inside of the bodythat leads us to do that, or
being on the opposite side wherewe aren't paying attention to
them.
We're quite spacious in ourinteraction, which is called a
dismissive avoidant.
There's also a type where weoscillate between the two, kind
of like a roller coaster thatwe're not really sure what way
(04:55):
it's about to turn, and that'scalled the fearful avoidant, and
that is a mix of both.
It's also what is known as thedisorganized attachment of our
wounds.
Anything that's unprocessed,anything that hasn't been looked
at, comes up to the surfacebecause it might be for the
(05:19):
first time in a long timedepending on how long you were
together in that marriage thefirst time you're really alone
and really seeing yourself andonly hearing yourself, and
there's complicated grief tothat as well right.
Cary Jacobson (05:36):
How does someone find out what type of attachment
personality they may have?
Danielle Bird (05:41):
I love this question.
There's a lot of different waysyou can actually do that, but
one of the easiest ways I findis just introspecting on how do
you respond to conflictspecifically, and it doesn't
only need to be in a romanticsetting.
It doesn't have to be that way.
It can also be with your family, with your coworkers, with your
(06:06):
boss, with your neighbors,because attachment style isn't
just romantic, it's literallyhow we relate to anything, your
own body included.
So there's lots of layers tothis, but if you experience
conflict by wanting to reallycling and feeling like I'm going
(06:26):
to be abandoned, right, let mebecome what I think this other
person really desires of me sothat they'll stay with me.
And then you stay really closeto them so that they'll stay
with me, and then you stayreally close to them so that you
can monitor it's called hypervigilantly, like scanning every
nuance of them to confirm thatthat we're okay right, that
they're not gonna believe me,that they want me, that they're
gonna choose me.
(06:46):
We become very preoccupied withthat, almost like when horses
are running races and they havethose blinders on or just tunnel
vision on them and we lose oursense of self in that.
This is because growing upthere was inconsistency in the
parenting.
So parents were there sometimes.
There weren't other times andwe weren't really sure what was
(07:08):
happening.
There was lots of inconsistency.
Maybe you actually wereabandoned or there was just
perceived abandonment.
That shows up a lot of thetimes for a parent who might
physically be there but they'renot actually present, right.
So there's that felt sense ofabandonment, really waiting for
for the shoe to drop, thatsensation Like I can't relax.
(07:28):
I need to constantly be, be onif you really feel like you have
to show up perfectly or elseyour partner will leave you.
So you stay close and then inthat you really push them away.
That if that resonates with you, that's an anxious, preoccupied
attachment, okay.
And then if you are a dismissiveavoidant and conflict occurs,
(07:52):
your inner world probably lookslike this isn't my
responsibility, why is Cary soupset?
Why is she making me deal withher feelings?
These are not mine to soothe,it's not my responsibility.
I even feel overwhelmed by yourexpression and desire for
closeness, especially when it'sin the form of accountability.
But this is because, actually,dismissive avoidance parents
(08:16):
profoundly neglected thememotionally.
And so if you're a dismissiveavoidant as an adult, the other
partner's desire for closeness,especially emotionally, it
triggers in them thisunprocessed shame wound of
overwhelm.
And so what happens is that ina dismissive avoidant they go.
(08:40):
This inner awareness of myoverwhelm, of you asking me to
hold your feelings, makes mefeel like I'm not good enough
and so I can't express thatbecause I'm overwhelmed with
that shame and I'm flooded withthat and so I shut down.
And so what happens on thesurface is that we see
dismissive, avoided partnerspull away.
(09:01):
They might even look likethey're cold or they don't care.
That is not the reality ofwhat's happening inside of their
body.
They really care.
They don't know what to do withthat.
They don't know, they don'thave the emotional literature to
be able to understand what'shappening inside and express
that, because there's so muchshame, and shame as an emotion.
(09:23):
Yes, the antidote is to expressit, but it takes a lot of
bravery and it takes a lot ofnervous system capacity to hold,
because it's so debilitating toour system.
It moves us very quickly into afreeze response, and so if you
grew up very neglected, thenthat pattern repeats, not only
(09:44):
to yourself right, I'm notexpressing my needs, I'm pushing
them down but also to thepartner in front of me, so I
will neglect you as well.
So the dismissive really pullsaway, the anxious really pulls
towards, and then the fearfulavoidant is a mix of the two.
And with the disorganizedattachment, the fearful avoidant
, this is where you have thehighest amount of what are known
(10:06):
as the trauma responses.
Right, we talk about survivalpatterns.
We're really talking about thefight nervous system state, the
flight, the freeze, the fawning,which is the people pleasing or
appeasing, and the shutdownnervous system, trauma response.
And so this, this pattern ofattachment, will oscillate
(10:27):
between the two, so there willbe perhaps a very strong
reactive blowing up.
Right, the dismissive avoid, orsorry, not the dismissive avoid,
but the disorganized attachmentis not afraid of conflict.
They actually will move into it.
However, it's very chaotic,it's very this is the pattern
that is actually the mostmisunderstood as narcissistic.
(10:48):
But it's not narcissisticbecause they actually care and
narcissists real, truenarcissists don't.
They're not having thatintrospective moment but on the
surface it can seem veryself-centered because it's so
argumentative, and so theyoscillate really between blowing
up in that fight way,especially cutting with words,
(11:08):
to fully shutting down theirnervous system states, not
sharing their inner experienceand really reactively setting
boundaries or sharing abouttheir needs, and then dismissing
their own inner experience inthat.
So inside of a disorganizedattachment is this yearning
almost incessantly, almostobsessively, to have closeness
(11:31):
but simultaneously not sharing,not coming forward, not bringing
anything to the other person.
Cary Jacobson (11:39):
Got it, so that's very interesting, and all of
that is based on things that mayhave happened to someone when
they were very young and didn'teven really know that these
things were impacting them.
Danielle Bird (11:52):
Absolutely.
Cary Jacobson (11:54):
Yeah, can you explain the link between the
attachment trauma and thenervous system dysregulation?
Danielle Bird (12:03):
Absolutely so.
When someone has an attachmentwound, what that looks like in
the body is imprinting, sort oflike if you step on cement
before it's solidified, right,there's imprinting there of both
unprocessed primary emotions.
(12:23):
So, whether it is overwhelm,whether it is devastation,
whether it is panic, whether itis confusion, right, because
imagine a child is born andthey're not receiving what they
need as basic necessities, butthey don't have the language or
even the neurology to understandwhat's happening.
(12:45):
They don't have the ability togo hmm, this isn't about me,
right?
So they internalize it, theyimprint it into themselves, and
so what that looks like isstuckness, and that's another
word to say trauma.
Trauma isn't an experienceoutside of us, it's actually the
imprinting of it in us.
It's the clenching, it's thebracing, it's the holding of
(13:07):
that in our body system, and so,on one piece, it is unprocessed
primary emotion that gets stuck.
But then we also have theadrenalized nervous system
response that gets uncompleted,because to not receive your
needs means that, especially ata very young age, when we can't
externalize as adults it's alittle different, but it still
(13:27):
works.
Similarly we become the threatbecause we hold that imprinting
in our body and so the nervoussystem.
In the most simple terms, whatit does is it goes am I safe or
am I not?
All day, in many different ways, constantly right,
automatically.
Whether that's a socialinteraction, a thought form that
(13:49):
you have, an emotional responseyou're experiencing, whatever
it is, it's constantly justgoing am I safe or am I not?
Am I safe or am I not?
And when you hold belief woundsright let's say, the parent
never checked in on you andemotionally neglected you you
are going to have a belief woundof, because it makes sense to
(14:09):
believe that that would be thereason why they're not showing
up.
It must be me.
And so when you have beliefwounds and they get housed in
your unconscious, in yoursubconscious, in your body,
because you're so young, you'renot even consciously engaging
yet.
It stays there until you rewireit.
(14:30):
And so, as an adult, you holdall of these different wounds in
your body and you're like whyam I getting so triggered during
the day?
Why am I so activated?
Why does this irritate me somuch?
Why do I just feel so sad, sodepressed, so anxious?
It's because you have kind oflike a smorgasbord of different
wounds that are still in yourbody and they'll stay there.
(14:52):
And so what happens is all allthrough the day.
You have certain cues in yourmind with this part of your
brain that's called the amygdala.
I like to think of it like thered flag center and it holds all
of those red flags and anytimeyou come close to any sensory
cue that looks like that redflag, it immediately speaks to
your nervous system.
Your nervous system says, okay,there's an attack on guard.
(15:15):
Okay, but there's nothinghappening outside of you.
The attack is inside the system.
And so those survival patternsof fight, flight, freeze, fun
and shutdown are constantlypumping cortisol stress hormones
through your body.
And so you start to brace.
But you're not bracing fromlife, you're bracing from your
(15:36):
own inner experience.
And what happens is that theneurology that you have, the
system of how the nervous systemworks, keeps it in place, and
this is by what we call thereticular activating system.
And this is by what we call thereticular activating system.
You can, I like to call it therazzle dazzle, but it's this
(15:57):
filter between the subconsciousso the subconscious is in the
body and then the conscious mind, like we're talking right now,
and what it does is that itprograms this part of your brain
that's called the default modenetwork.
So let's say what the systemdoes when it's just on automatic
, right, so defaulted.
What is it just doing in thebackground, right?
So what happens is that,whatever belief wounds you hold
(16:19):
in your body and yoursubconscious I'm not good enough
the razzle dazzle, thereticular activating system, is
going to confirm throughout yourday that belief.
And it does that because it'sefficient, because it also does
that for positive beliefs, right, so it does serve us.
But when we hold that trauma,it really doesn't, because the
(16:39):
nervous system is constantlygetting threat cues right, and
so science calls this right, theconfirmation bias right.
They call the placebo effect,spirituality calls it
manifesting.
Like it's all.
We're all talking about thesame thing in different
industries, different fields,and it's that whatever you hold
in your body subconsciouslybecomes the program that you
(17:02):
seek out.
And so your partner could doseven things in the day that
disprove that belief wound, butyou're not going to pay
attention to that.
You're only going to payattention to the one moment that
they confirmed a subconsciouswound, until you actually get to
rewire that subconsciously.
Cary Jacobson (17:23):
And how do people go about rewiring?
Danielle Bird (17:26):
Yes, I love that there's so many different ways
to rewire.
What I do with my clients isthat we get to know what their
senses are the most, as somepeople prefer to rewire the
belief or the thought or theaction or the emotion.
But one of my favorite toolsfor this is not only the auto
(17:49):
suggestion reprogramming, whichI'll tell you about, but also
what I like to call CPR foremotional processing, because
what happens when we getactivated into these survival
responses is that we live in ourhead because the nervous system
says I'm unsafe, but it's thebody that's unsafe, so we won't
(18:11):
live where the pain is.
So we will basically be cut offat the neck and try to process
our emotions in our mind and getoverwhelmed by that, because
we're only using our head as aspatial like.
Our head is so small comparedto the rest of our body, and so
what I like to do with clientsis that we get really good at
(18:31):
metabolizing emotions and I canactually share that resource
with you.
If you want, for free, I'llgive you the link for that.
It's called CPR three reallyeasy steps to emotionally
process.
It's beyond the scope of whatwe can dive into in this
conversation, but I recommendanybody just take screenshots of
it, keep it on your phone sothat you can just have that in
your pocket and you can try itanytime.
(18:54):
But for an easy rewiring tool isauto-suggestion, where you take
any belief wound that you have.
Right, it could be I amdisconnected, I am not good
enough, I am abandoned, and itcan also be I will be so.
I am or I will be.
What you want to do is you wantto start to utilize this when
(19:19):
your subconscious is most active.
So that's either an hour withinwaking up, an hour before going
to bed.
You know when you're kind ofsleeping and you're loopy, you
wake up, you're still loopy.
That's actually an indicationthat your subconscious is more
active.
Where you kind of wake up, likein a dream, almost right, your
subconscious is more activeduring those times.
It can also happen after youget into a flow state.
So maybe a flow state for youis like watching a movie that
(19:42):
you really like, could bemeditation, could be a walk
outside.
It looks different for everyone, but you don't want to do it
during your work day becauseyour conscious mind is more
active.
So that's first, and then let'ssay we go with the example of
I'm not good enough.
We want to switch it to thepositive, not because I want you
to gaslight yourself or we'regoing with toxic positivity, but
(20:03):
because the subconscious takesthings literally.
Because if I say, don't thinkof a pink flower, what are you
thinking about Pink flower?
Right, it just takes a literal.
So it's not to gaslightyourself into.
I believe that I'm beautiful,but like, just that's what
you're really inputting intothat program.
So you want to go.
I am good enough.
And you want to go because andwhat you want to do is you want
(20:24):
to find experiential evidenceacross as many areas of your
life as you can for momentswhere you actually have felt
good enough, because the razzle,dazzle, the reticular
activating system, there aremoments where you have felt good
enough, but you have nothighlighted them because of the
belief wound.
So if you take a moment toreally just okay, pause when was
(20:45):
the last time I felt goodenough?
Or when, across my whole life,have I felt good enough, you can
go in there and find thoseexperiences that might look like
oh, I felt good enough when Iwas driving in the coffee line
and someone bought my coffee,right, it can be an experience
just like that.
So you put that experience down, you write that down.
You can also say it in front ofthe mirror, you can do while
(21:06):
you're dancing.
There's many different ways youcan do it.
So you write that down I amgood enough because the girl
paid for my coffee the other day.
And then what you want to do,because you're utilizing your
visualization through this,because you're revisiting memory
, and the subconscious languageisn't this type of language.
That's quite why you saw theflower.
(21:26):
It's actually visualization,sensation and emotion.
And where do we see all ofthose in memory?
Right, yeah, and so we bring inthe memory.
In that moment, I'm good enoughbecause she bought me a coffee.
And we want to drop intofeeling.
How did I feel in that moment?
So, still revisiting the memory, I felt el, elated.
(21:50):
I felt grateful, right yeah,grateful, exactly.
And then you want to drop into,okay, and then physiology.
What did I feel in my body?
How did I experience thosefeelings in my body?
So we want to go into thatsomatic language of I felt like
my chest started to open up.
I felt like I started to feellighter.
(22:11):
I wanted to, like, dance alittle bit, I started to move my
spine a bit more, and whatwe're doing there is we're
speaking the language of thenervous system, because the
nervous system is in our bodyright, it's the brain and the
spinal cord but the majority ofyour information pathways in
your nervous system actually gofrom your extremities and your
organs to your brain.
80% of them are going from yourmuscles and the rest of your
(22:35):
body up to your brain, versus20% are going from your brain
downwards.
This is why, if you feel unsafe,you can't gaslight yourself
into feeling safe.
Your body's saying I'm having adifferent experience, I don't
know what you're talking about,but I don't feel good.
Right, but we can show our mindthat we're safe.
We can show our mind that wecan feel good, and that's what
(22:56):
this auto-suggestion does.
And so what you want to do isflip it to the positive.
I am good enough Experientialevidence across as many areas of
your life as you can.
You want to go for anywherebetween 5 to 15 per day.
You don't have to do it morningand night.
Just choose one and commit andbe consistent, because the
wounds were programmed throughconsistency, so they're going to
(23:16):
be reprogrammed throughconsistency as well.
And then the emotion, the bodysensation, specifically, and
that's that's what it does.
That's how it works.
That's one way to do that.
That's awesome.
Cary Jacobson (23:31):
So, as we're about to wrap up, what advice
would you give someone who mayfeel stuck in the same like
painful relationship loop, um,which I'm assuming has to do
with their attachment style, um,even after they've gone through
a divorce process?
Danielle Bird (23:52):
Absolutely so.
If you are stuck in the samepainful loop, it is because
there is a belief wound.
Another way to say that isthere is a part of your
consciousness, there's a part ofyou inside that is stuck in
that response.
It's stuck in the memory, in avery embodied state of that
experience.
And so one the emotionalprocessing PDF that I'll send a
(24:15):
link to that get really good atdoing that, because what it does
is essentially, you connectwith that experience of
stuckness, you go into your bodythrough some prompts that I
have and you explore that andyou move that energy naturally,
because what happens is thatpeople go, I feel shitty and I
just want to move through it.
But what happens is that peoplego, I feel shitty and I just
want to move through it.
But what we want to do is I feelawful in my body, I actually
(24:38):
create space for it and then,without forcing and allowing
myself to be curious of it, itnaturally is going to change,
and then I'm not resistingsomething, because it's never
the stuckness, it's theresistance of it that creates
the perpetuation of it, and thestuckness is actually it could
be a younger part of you thathas no verbal language to it
(25:00):
right, and so we want to repairthat right.
If, if the, the, the challengeis the disconnect, the stuckness
is a representation of adisconnect somewhere in your
inner system.
And so we want to do is we wantto repair that by
experientially and embodiedteaching that part, that to
remember that your whole andthat creates an embodied
(25:25):
remembrance of that.
So there's lots of differentways to do it.
It kind of sounds paradoxical,but I promise it works.
Cary Jacobson (25:38):
No, I appreciate that that's very helpful and
we'll be sure to link thatresource in our show notes.
Well, daniel, thank you so muchfor helping us see that those
secure attachments isn't justluck.
It's something that we have topractice, and it starts with our
nervous systems.
For those listening, how canpeople find out more about you
and your services?
Danielle Bird (25:56):
Absolutely.
You can find me across anysocial, usually TikTok or
Instagram at the Danielle Bird,so T-H-E-D-A-N-I-E-L-L-E-B-I-R-D
, or you can find me on mywebsite, which is just
wwwdaniellebirdcom.
So, first, last name, and, yeah, check out the CPR resource
(26:20):
that's going to support you inreally getting beyond that
stuckness into your body in asafe way so that you can
complete emotional cycles, whichis the number one thing that
will regulate your nervoussystem is completing those
emotional cycles Awesome.
Cary Jacobson (26:34):
Thank you so much , and for our listeners, be sure
to subscribe to Divorce Diaries, lessons from the Trenches and
share with anyone who may findthis as a great resource.
I'm your host, Cary Jacobson,and until next time, stay
grounded and take care of yourheart.
Intro/Close (26:51):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit jacobsonfamilylawcom orcall 443-726-4912 for support
and guidance.
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