September 23, 2025 • 22 mins
Attorney and mediator, Cary Jacobson, is joined this week by Lance Hilsinger as he pulls back the curtain on the misunderstood world of child welfare after spending 34 years on the frontlines. His candid conversation reveals surprising truths about the system designed to protect our most vulnerable children.
Lance's advice resonates with compassion and practicality: normalize life for children caught in custody disputes, recognize that fathers face unique challenges in the system, and remember that imperfection is part of being human. His book "In Place of the Parent: Inside Child Protective Services" offers deeper insights, with all royalties supporting humanitarian work in Ukraine. For anyone navigating the complex intersection of family law and child protection, Lance's perspective offers both clarity and hope.
Visit jacobsonworkshop.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lance Hillsinger (00:00):
For all those years, except for the first year
, I worked on court cases onetime or another, but really my
dream assignment was what wecolloquially call a court worker
.
So when a child is put inprotective custody, either by
child welfare or by the police,of course you have to file a
petition right away.
Petition is filed within 48hours, or follows the 40 hours,
(00:20):
and you have a hearing the nextday, and then you have various
hearings until the jurisdictionand dispositional hearings.
I would handle the case untilthe dispositional case.
Intro/Close (00:32):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Cary
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:53):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, the podcast where wetalk about the emotional,
practical and legal realities ofdivorce and how families can
move forward in healthier ways.
I'm Cary Jacobson, divorceattorney, mediator and advocate
for out-of-court resolutions.
My guest today is LanceHillsinger, who has spent 34
(01:14):
years as a child welfare socialworker.
During his career, lancetestified in juvenile court
approximately 75 times andparticipated in countless
court-ordered mediations, themajority of which were
successful.
Thankfully, his decades offrontline experience has given
him a unique perspective on howthe legal system impacts
(01:35):
children and families.
Lance is also an author of InPlace of the Parent Inside Child
Protective Services, as well asother books, and offers a rare
and honest look inside the worldof child Protective Services,
as well as other books, andoffers a rare and honest look
inside the world of childprotection.
Today, he's joining us to sharehow the law has changed and
when it comes to social workerplacement, kids in protective
(01:56):
custody, and why mediation canbe such a powerful tool for
families in conflict.
Thank you so much for beinghere, lance.
Lance Hillsinger (02:05):
Well, thank you for having me.
Cary Jacobson (02:07):
Absolutely Well.
I'm so thankful that you'rehere to share a little bit more
about your experience as a childwelfare social worker and
working with kids in mediationin this, you know, very
difficult time.
So can you share a little bitabout kind of your career over
the years?
Lance Hillsinger (02:27):
I was a child welfare social worker for 34
years.
The first five years with LosAngeles County and then the rest
with San Luis Obispo County,which is just north of Santa
Barbara.
Okay, from all those years,except for the first year, I
worked at court cases one typeor another, but really my dream
assignment was what wecolloquially call a court worker
(02:48):
.
So when a child's put inprotective custody, either by
child welfare or by the police,of course you have to file a
petition right away.
Petition is filed within 48hours, or filed within 48 hours
and you have a hearing the nextday, and then you have various
hearings until the jurisdictionand dispositional hearings.
I would handle the case untilthe dispositional case or unless
(03:09):
it was dismissed earlier thanthat.
California is unique in thatsocial workers file petition.
In most states it's anassistant attorney general or
some other position or alicensed attorney.
So we had a quasi-prosecutorialrole because we have to make
our case in court.
We were represented in court bycounty council, but as far as
(03:32):
writing the petition and thesupporting documents, that's on
the social worker, and so I verymuch enjoyed that job.
Of course there were tough daysfrom time to time and San Luis
Obispo County was really goodbecause we were a small county.
We had one judge at any onetime, we had several different
judges over my career, but onlyone juvenile judge at a time and
(03:56):
only six or seven regularattorneys that did juvenile work
and we would set cases.
When you started off talkingabout mediation, if we didn't
resolve things a lot of thingspeople would the social workers
report was okay or they'd havelittle 1 minor issue that we
could just resolve.
A court I would say maybe lessthan a third of the cases went
(04:18):
to mediation.
They resolved some other wayand we always had mediation
before a trial, almost alwaysset mediation first and we would
set it right from court.
So there were certain days thatthe mediation service had set
aside for us.
So we would just say, okay,we're going to have the Smiths,
okay, the Smiths case is goingto be Thursday afternoon and the
(04:39):
Jones Tuesday morning orwhatever.
So that was very good and Ithink that because it was a
smaller county, it was easierfor people to respect each other
and to know.
You know, did I have an off day?
Did someone else have an offday?
But most of the time I thinkthat people came through and
most mediations were successfulum, uh, and they resolved things
(05:04):
.
I think because the mediatorswere very good.
They understood child welfare,but they were not attorneys,
they were not, um, retiredjudges or anything like that.
They were just ordinary peoplewho were trained to be mediators
.
Since they ordered, they werenice.
I don't know their training.
Besides, they got trained as amediator.
Cary Jacobson (05:22):
Lance, you mentioned that you know part of
the reason the mediations wereso effective is because you had
a small county and you, you knowwe're really working with a lot
of the regular people.
I think that that makes such ahuge difference because you get
to know each other and you getto know.
You know quirks and things andreally know more about each
(05:47):
other's personalities.
And also it makes it easier tohelp move the cases along when
you know the other playersinvolved.
Lance Hillsinger (05:57):
Right, and I just don't want anybody the
cynics out there.
Oh, it was a real cozyrelationship and you know
something?
No, people still had theirroles.
They still advocated for theirclients what they wanted to do.
How do we write a better futureRight?
And one of the things that Itry to do as a social worker,
you know we file a petition.
(06:18):
New facts come in, things getclarified.
I made it my point to file anamended petition and sometimes
that made the petition stronger,sometimes it made it weaker,
but I always wanted to go withthe facts and that's all that we
want.
The CPS gets accused of makingthings up all the time and
distorting things, and so I tryto say when it comes in and it
(06:42):
wasn't 100% perfect to try tomake it better.
If I need a violent petition, Idid so.
Cary Jacobson (06:48):
Yeah.
Do you think more counties andstates should invest in similar
programs?
Lance Hillsinger (06:55):
I think that they do by and large.
I do think that there's a pushon mediation.
Yes, I think different countieshandle it differently,
different states.
Well, one of the things I thinkthat we need to take in mind
with child welfare cases is that90% of our clients at least 90%
(07:15):
are poor enough to qualify forpoint-appointed attorneys.
So when your kids are takenaway, you can encounter
California law, you can have anattorney appointed to represent
you.
That's not true in all childwelfare cases, in all juvenile
court.
In some states it's considereda civil proceeding and the
parents do not get even ifthey're poor, do not get an
attorney.
And that's just my personalbeef there.
(07:36):
I think that's wrong.
I think that's going to gosubventionally up to the US
Supreme Court.
And the other thing is, as youwell know is in family law,
about two-thirds of the clientsare unrepresented litigants, and
so we're talking about peoplewho are struggling with the
(07:57):
system you know forms and whathave you and procedures, stuff
that's not part of their dailylife.
Cary Jacobson (08:04):
Right.
So I'd love for you to share alittle bit more about what
inspired you to write In Placeof a Parent your book.
Lance Hillsinger (08:16):
Well, I started writing In Place of a
Parent when I was still a socialworker in LA County.
There was a lot of things goingon.
When I left LA County I had 77kids in my caseload.
That's far, far too many andthe system had a lot of growth
pains and was really, you know,stumbling along in a lot of ways
and that was my one way.
If I wanted to make it betterDuring the course of my career,
it did get better in a lot ofways and that was my one way.
(08:36):
If I wanted to make it betterduring the course of my career,
it did get better a lot of waysand I never got to had the time
to finish up only in retirement.
That I did to take those someof those experience, add them on
to what I had in San LuisObispo County and and finish up
with a book that I hope would,you know, make the system a
little bit better and alsoinspire people to be foster
parents or CASA workers they'recalled guardian lighters in some
(09:01):
states because I wanted that.
It was very helpful.
A lot of people complain aboutthe CPS.
Does this CPS, does that thesystem better if we have more
foster homes?
Just from the simplepracticality.
If you have to drive 45 minutesto a foster home, that's very
inefficient as opposed to havingto drive you 10 minutes.
The more foster homes, the moreefficient the system is.
(09:23):
And just to point out, just toclarify, relatives are the
preferred preference and legallyand just morally they are
preferred and just over half ofplacements tend to be with
relatives.
Cary Jacobson (09:40):
Yeah, and when you were doing the mediations,
who typically were involved inthose?
Was it the parents, theplacements, the social workers?
Who else may be a party to that?
Lance Hillsinger (09:53):
The social workers, the mom and the dad, or
usually just the mother and thefather and their respective
attorneys and the countyattorney.
We didn't have otherprofessionals come in.
We generally or relatives,unless if it was understood that
that was going to come neededfor a particular case, but
(10:15):
definitely not therapists oranybody like that or other
professionals Once in a whilerelative, but generally just the
mother and father and not theboyfriends or the girlfriends
either.
Cary Jacobson (10:26):
Right, just the parents in the case Got it.
Lance Hillsinger (10:29):
Right.
Cary Jacobson (10:31):
So you know you've been in the child welfare
world for several decades.
What stands out to you as someof the most important lessons
about supporting kids in thesecustody disputes?
Lance Hillsinger (10:55):
I think one of the things is just to normalize
.
You know as much as kids can goout and and just have regular
days and just just be a kid andplay and do homework and have
have fun and and be a kid.
That's very important.
And sometimes I think that youknow mental health services for
and sometimes I think that youknow mental health services for
children were relatively easy toobtain.
But it's usually not thechildren, it's the parents that
(11:17):
need the therapy usually, andespecially for something that
doesn't quite fit into DSMdiagnosis.
It can be really hard to getfor somebody who doesn't have
insurance for them to get health, mental health care, because
you have two obstacles One youhave access obstacle there may
not be an agency, there may bemoney and issues.
And the other is parent mightthink, oh, I'm fine, I don't
(11:39):
need therapy, when they reallydo and they have things to work
on.
I do think that those parentsthat we would give parents a
case plan just at the very firsthearing and then it would get
revised at subsequent hearingsas necessary to start working on
things.
So we wanted people to try togive the message that we want
(12:04):
you to have your kids, we don'twant them to flounder on
Congress, we don't want them toflounder on car, and here's
here's the steps to do that.
Roughly two thirds of the casesthat come in juvenile court are
neglect due to substance abuse.
People think of all the abusekids and you know that's not
very common.
Under California law a childunder the age of five who is
(12:26):
seriously physically abused iswhat we call a 300E case.
I had about one of those a year.
A case that's just regularphysical abuse, that's the only
issue, not drugs, not alcohol,not mental health, not anything.
Those were 300a cases.
I might have one of those justonce every couple of years, and
so really there's usuallymultiple issues going on.
(12:48):
And we had a pretty good systemwhere we could get the because
most people in the county havebeen in the county for a while.
If they have a family lawrecord, we could get to that
access fairly easily a divorceor family custody order in
another county.
(13:09):
That got to be difficult tofind those orders, get the track
record and that kind of thingand find out what, what happened
to the other county.
That's still where the systemcould be improved.
Cary Jacobson (13:19):
Oh, that's interesting.
So there's not a statewideaccess to records that are filed
as far as family law cases areconcerned?
Lance Hillsinger (13:30):
At least not, not for social workers.
I could go down.
If the case was local, I couldgo down and go to the clerk's
office and say I want to filesuch and such and they would
interoffice it to me.
They were very nice, they'dmake copies and then send it
interoffice to me and then Icould read the family law file
at my leisure and not have tosit there.
But if it was another county itwas awkward and sometimes
(13:54):
difficult.
Yes, wasn't that often, butwhen it happened it was awkward.
Cary Jacobson (13:59):
Right Understand.
So you mentioned that most ofthe cases are really related to
substance abuse issues.
So it's really making surethose parents have the resources
they need to get the treatmentnecessary so that you know then
the kids can be returned to them, is that?
Lance Hillsinger (14:19):
the.
That's correct, and there werethree or four residential
programs for mothers andchildren to get their kids back
while they were early intreatment.
The child could be returned tothe mother's care in a
residential facility, but forfathers there wasn't anything.
(14:39):
There was very few residentialprograms in general and I've
never even heard of a programwhere a father could have his
children with him in a treatmentprogram and so you know.
So sometimes I had kids, fathersand los angeles treatment
programs, but they were justjust strictly for men, and so it
was really harder than if yourplace, if you're the dad and
(15:02):
your treatment program is in losangeles county or or modesto or
wherever which is good distanceaway.
Keeping visitation, keepingcontact, having supervised
visitation gets to be a verylogistical nightmare.
Cary Jacobson (15:15):
Right, especially if they have limited resources
and maybe no vehicle and thatsort of thing.
Lance Hillsinger (15:20):
That's right.
Cary Jacobson (15:21):
Yeah, that makes it challenging.
Can you share an example of amediation or a case that had
particular positive outcome forone of the families you were
working with?
Lance Hillsinger (15:34):
That's funny because my recollection is
always the ones that went bad.
It's like it's you know one badexperience.
I have to tell the story.
I had one bad experience atSears years and years ago and I
didn't walk into a Sears storefor years and years because of
that.
So the bad experiences alwaysstand out.
I got to tell you that most ofthem worked out, they were happy
, and people would say whatpower is this?
(15:57):
And I said at some level it'sjust a piece of paper.
But both of you respect thepiece of paper at the end of the
day, because there's many wayspeople can subvert orders or
frustrate them.
That would go under the levelof having you know contempt
charge or something like that.
It's very hard to get somebodyyou know on that when they have
(16:20):
failed to comply with courtorders, and so it has to be the
buy-in.
And I think that most of thetime is that I would tell
parents your kids are going totell you when things are better.
It's it's you don't have theaudience, it's not really the
judge, it's not really me, it'sit's you.
You don't have the audience,it's not really the judge, it's
not really me, it's really yourchildren, and your and your
(16:40):
children are going to tell youthat when things are better and
and that they're going to lookhappier and they're going to be
going, you know they're justgoing to.
You're going to enjoy them morebecause they're not going to be
as stressed out.
Cary Jacobson (16:52):
Absolutely Because things have improved.
Yeah Well, is there any advicethat you would give any of our
listeners related to you knowthe types of cases that you
experienced.
Lance Hillsinger (17:09):
Well, I know that there's a great deal of
frustration there, a lot of fromrelatives.
They will see their, their nenarrative well, nephew of their
narrative well, niece or theirgrandchild or whatever you know.
And, and, yes, I would urgepeople to report and be as
objective as possible um, andwhat may be a big concern to you
(17:31):
and maybe a very small concernto the system, because we see
really really real bad cases.
So my advice would be like,don't expect perfection from
people you know, as long as thechildren are safe and that kind
of thing.
I think that one of the thingsthat kind of strikes me is that
(17:57):
the father should be a littlemore active, you know, not just
in their children's lives, butproactive, legally, not
necessarily in an antagonisticway, but just not be afraid of
the system.
And a lot of the dads are tothe system, uh, and a lot of the
(18:20):
dads, uh, are one.
One attorney asked me.
She asked me why does mrso-and-so, who's the not
offending father?
Um, why doesn't he file forcustody?
Says mary, why don't you changeyour own oil in your car, since
you're afraid you're going tomake things worse?
Oh, yeah, that's right now, shegot it.
She got it why?
Why they don't do it, and so Ithink that there needs to be.
There are legal aid societiesout there, but, um, they, they
(18:42):
don't reach out to men too much,to be honest about that, and
and a lot of times, yes, there'splenty of men who screw up, but
, you know, neither gender has amonopoly on, on virtue.
That's what I would tell people.
Um and uh, a little courtesygoes a long ways, and I know one
of your podcasts you mentionedthis system where people have
their messages to the actsrecorded and monitored, and I
(19:04):
think that's an excellent thing,and I had one client do that
and he was not going to givethat up because he liked that
protection.
It was just a case of just as Iwas retiring.
Cary Jacobson (19:20):
Yeah, so a lot of couples that we work with- I
lost you there.
I said, a lot of couples that wework with use a program called
Our Family Wizard I think iswhat you're kind of referring to
which is a co-parenting appthat allows people to send
messages back and forth.
(19:40):
They can use shared calendars,but one of the like in the
messages it kind of has like atone meter which will allow them
to correct their tone in themessage before they send it, so
it'll be less offending.
Correct their tone in themessage before they send it, so
it'll be less offending.
Lance Hillsinger (20:05):
So it's definitely one that I highly
recommend for folks to use.
You know, to keep everythingtogether.
Cary Jacobson (20:10):
Yes, yes, yeah Well, lance, thank you so much
for sharing your wisdom as wellas your decades of experience.
Just custody and child welfareissues are some of the most
challenging parts of you know,custody cases that we see, and
your perspective really helpedshed some light on the system
and some of the solutions.
I'm so thankful to hear thatmediation was successful in so
(20:35):
many of your cases and for allof our listeners.
You can learn more aboutLance's work and his books,
including In Place of a ParentInside Child Protective Services
, by checking out the links inour show notes.
Lance, where can people findyou today?
Lance Hillsinger (20:50):
My website is LanceHillsinger.
net.
That's really the best place tolook for me.
I also have Spotify, linkedinand that kind of thing, but
really the website's the best.
Just, incidentally, all theroyalties from In Place of the
Parent go to RASOM, ahumanitarian program working in
Ukraine.
There's lots of worthy causesout there.
That's the one that I believein.
(21:11):
I looked at the CharityNavigator and other places to
make sure that they were alegitimate organization and they
are, and so I urge peopleeither to donate directly or buy
one of my books.
The Royalties Go Directly to aWorthy Cause.
Cary Jacobson (21:26):
Well, thank you so much for that.
I appreciate it and for therest of you listeners, if you're
looking for resources tosupport your own divorce journey
, for mediation, flat feeds,legal services, check out our
Stan store at stan.
store/jacobsonfamilylaw.
And thanks again for tuning into Divorce Diaries Lessons from
(21:47):
the Trenches Thanks for joiningus today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Intro/Close (21:52):
Remember every journey is unique, but you don't
have to navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLaw.
com or call 443-726-4912 forsupport and guidance.
For all those years, except for the first year
, I worked on court cases onetime or another, but really my
dream assignment was what wecolloquially call a court worker
.
So when a child is put inprotective custody, either by
child welfare or by the police,of course you have to file a
petition right away.
Petition is filed within 48hours, or follows the 40 hours,
(00:20):
and you have a hearing the nextday, and then you have various
hearings until the jurisdictionand dispositional hearings.
I would handle the case untilthe dispositional case.
Intro/Close (00:32):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Cary
Jacobson brings you real stories, hard truths and practical
advice on navigating divorce andfamily law.
Whether you're going through it, considering it or just curious
, this is your place for clarity, confidence and resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:53):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, the podcast where wetalk about the emotional,
practical and legal realities ofdivorce and how families can
move forward in healthier ways.
I'm Cary Jacobson, divorceattorney, mediator and advocate
for out-of-court resolutions.
My guest today is LanceHillsinger, who has spent 34
(01:14):
years as a child welfare socialworker.
During his career, lancetestified in juvenile court
approximately 75 times andparticipated in countless
court-ordered mediations, themajority of which were
successful.
Thankfully, his decades offrontline experience has given
him a unique perspective on howthe legal system impacts
(01:35):
children and families.
Lance is also an author of InPlace of the Parent Inside Child
Protective Services, as well asother books, and offers a rare
and honest look inside the worldof child Protective Services,
as well as other books, andoffers a rare and honest look
inside the world of childprotection.
Today, he's joining us to sharehow the law has changed and
when it comes to social workerplacement, kids in protective
(01:56):
custody, and why mediation canbe such a powerful tool for
families in conflict.
Thank you so much for beinghere, lance.
Lance Hillsinger (02:05):
Well, thank you for having me.
Cary Jacobson (02:07):
Absolutely Well.
I'm so thankful that you'rehere to share a little bit more
about your experience as a childwelfare social worker and
working with kids in mediationin this, you know, very
difficult time.
So can you share a little bitabout kind of your career over
the years?
Lance Hillsinger (02:27):
I was a child welfare social worker for 34
years.
The first five years with LosAngeles County and then the rest
with San Luis Obispo County,which is just north of Santa
Barbara.
Okay, from all those years,except for the first year, I
worked at court cases one typeor another, but really my dream
assignment was what wecolloquially call a court worker
(02:48):
.
So when a child's put inprotective custody, either by
child welfare or by the police,of course you have to file a
petition right away.
Petition is filed within 48hours, or filed within 48 hours
and you have a hearing the nextday, and then you have various
hearings until the jurisdictionand dispositional hearings.
I would handle the case untilthe dispositional case or unless
(03:09):
it was dismissed earlier thanthat.
California is unique in thatsocial workers file petition.
In most states it's anassistant attorney general or
some other position or alicensed attorney.
So we had a quasi-prosecutorialrole because we have to make
our case in court.
We were represented in court bycounty council, but as far as
(03:32):
writing the petition and thesupporting documents, that's on
the social worker, and so I verymuch enjoyed that job.
Of course there were tough daysfrom time to time and San Luis
Obispo County was really goodbecause we were a small county.
We had one judge at any onetime, we had several different
judges over my career, but onlyone juvenile judge at a time and
(03:56):
only six or seven regularattorneys that did juvenile work
and we would set cases.
When you started off talkingabout mediation, if we didn't
resolve things a lot of thingspeople would the social workers
report was okay or they'd havelittle 1 minor issue that we
could just resolve.
A court I would say maybe lessthan a third of the cases went
(04:18):
to mediation.
They resolved some other wayand we always had mediation
before a trial, almost alwaysset mediation first and we would
set it right from court.
So there were certain days thatthe mediation service had set
aside for us.
So we would just say, okay,we're going to have the Smiths,
okay, the Smiths case is goingto be Thursday afternoon and the
(04:39):
Jones Tuesday morning orwhatever.
So that was very good and Ithink that because it was a
smaller county, it was easierfor people to respect each other
and to know.
You know, did I have an off day?
Did someone else have an offday?
But most of the time I thinkthat people came through and
most mediations were successfulum, uh, and they resolved things
(05:04):
.
I think because the mediatorswere very good.
They understood child welfare,but they were not attorneys,
they were not, um, retiredjudges or anything like that.
They were just ordinary peoplewho were trained to be mediators
.
Since they ordered, they werenice.
I don't know their training.
Besides, they got trained as amediator.
Cary Jacobson (05:22):
Lance, you mentioned that you know part of
the reason the mediations wereso effective is because you had
a small county and you, you knowwe're really working with a lot
of the regular people.
I think that that makes such ahuge difference because you get
to know each other and you getto know.
You know quirks and things andreally know more about each
(05:47):
other's personalities.
And also it makes it easier tohelp move the cases along when
you know the other playersinvolved.
Lance Hillsinger (05:57):
Right, and I just don't want anybody the
cynics out there.
Oh, it was a real cozyrelationship and you know
something?
No, people still had theirroles.
They still advocated for theirclients what they wanted to do.
How do we write a better futureRight?
And one of the things that Itry to do as a social worker,
you know we file a petition.
(06:18):
New facts come in, things getclarified.
I made it my point to file anamended petition and sometimes
that made the petition stronger,sometimes it made it weaker,
but I always wanted to go withthe facts and that's all that we
want.
The CPS gets accused of makingthings up all the time and
distorting things, and so I tryto say when it comes in and it
(06:42):
wasn't 100% perfect to try tomake it better.
If I need a violent petition, Idid so.
Cary Jacobson (06:48):
Yeah.
Do you think more counties andstates should invest in similar
programs?
Lance Hillsinger (06:55):
I think that they do by and large.
I do think that there's a pushon mediation.
Yes, I think different countieshandle it differently,
different states.
Well, one of the things I thinkthat we need to take in mind
with child welfare cases is that90% of our clients at least 90%
(07:15):
are poor enough to qualify forpoint-appointed attorneys.
So when your kids are takenaway, you can encounter
California law, you can have anattorney appointed to represent
you.
That's not true in all childwelfare cases, in all juvenile
court.
In some states it's considereda civil proceeding and the
parents do not get even ifthey're poor, do not get an
attorney.
And that's just my personalbeef there.
(07:36):
I think that's wrong.
I think that's going to gosubventionally up to the US
Supreme Court.
And the other thing is, as youwell know is in family law,
about two-thirds of the clientsare unrepresented litigants, and
so we're talking about peoplewho are struggling with the
(07:57):
system you know forms and whathave you and procedures, stuff
that's not part of their dailylife.
Cary Jacobson (08:04):
Right.
So I'd love for you to share alittle bit more about what
inspired you to write In Placeof a Parent your book.
Lance Hillsinger (08:16):
Well, I started writing In Place of a
Parent when I was still a socialworker in LA County.
There was a lot of things goingon.
When I left LA County I had 77kids in my caseload.
That's far, far too many andthe system had a lot of growth
pains and was really, you know,stumbling along in a lot of ways
and that was my one way.
If I wanted to make it betterDuring the course of my career,
it did get better in a lot ofways and that was my one way.
(08:36):
If I wanted to make it betterduring the course of my career,
it did get better a lot of waysand I never got to had the time
to finish up only in retirement.
That I did to take those someof those experience, add them on
to what I had in San LuisObispo County and and finish up
with a book that I hope would,you know, make the system a
little bit better and alsoinspire people to be foster
parents or CASA workers they'recalled guardian lighters in some
(09:01):
states because I wanted that.
It was very helpful.
A lot of people complain aboutthe CPS.
Does this CPS, does that thesystem better if we have more
foster homes?
Just from the simplepracticality.
If you have to drive 45 minutesto a foster home, that's very
inefficient as opposed to havingto drive you 10 minutes.
The more foster homes, the moreefficient the system is.
(09:23):
And just to point out, just toclarify, relatives are the
preferred preference and legallyand just morally they are
preferred and just over half ofplacements tend to be with
relatives.
Cary Jacobson (09:40):
Yeah, and when you were doing the mediations,
who typically were involved inthose?
Was it the parents, theplacements, the social workers?
Who else may be a party to that?
Lance Hillsinger (09:53):
The social workers, the mom and the dad, or
usually just the mother and thefather and their respective
attorneys and the countyattorney.
We didn't have otherprofessionals come in.
We generally or relatives,unless if it was understood that
that was going to come neededfor a particular case, but
(10:15):
definitely not therapists oranybody like that or other
professionals Once in a whilerelative, but generally just the
mother and father and not theboyfriends or the girlfriends
either.
Cary Jacobson (10:26):
Right, just the parents in the case Got it.
Lance Hillsinger (10:29):
Right.
Cary Jacobson (10:31):
So you know you've been in the child welfare
world for several decades.
What stands out to you as someof the most important lessons
about supporting kids in thesecustody disputes?
Lance Hillsinger (10:55):
I think one of the things is just to normalize
.
You know as much as kids can goout and and just have regular
days and just just be a kid andplay and do homework and have
have fun and and be a kid.
That's very important.
And sometimes I think that youknow mental health services for
and sometimes I think that youknow mental health services for
children were relatively easy toobtain.
But it's usually not thechildren, it's the parents that
(11:17):
need the therapy usually, andespecially for something that
doesn't quite fit into DSMdiagnosis.
It can be really hard to getfor somebody who doesn't have
insurance for them to get health, mental health care, because
you have two obstacles One youhave access obstacle there may
not be an agency, there may bemoney and issues.
And the other is parent mightthink, oh, I'm fine, I don't
(11:39):
need therapy, when they reallydo and they have things to work
on.
I do think that those parentsthat we would give parents a
case plan just at the very firsthearing and then it would get
revised at subsequent hearingsas necessary to start working on
things.
So we wanted people to try togive the message that we want
(12:04):
you to have your kids, we don'twant them to flounder on
Congress, we don't want them toflounder on car, and here's
here's the steps to do that.
Roughly two thirds of the casesthat come in juvenile court are
neglect due to substance abuse.
People think of all the abusekids and you know that's not
very common.
Under California law a childunder the age of five who is
(12:26):
seriously physically abused iswhat we call a 300E case.
I had about one of those a year.
A case that's just regularphysical abuse, that's the only
issue, not drugs, not alcohol,not mental health, not anything.
Those were 300a cases.
I might have one of those justonce every couple of years, and
so really there's usuallymultiple issues going on.
(12:48):
And we had a pretty good systemwhere we could get the because
most people in the county havebeen in the county for a while.
If they have a family lawrecord, we could get to that
access fairly easily a divorceor family custody order in
another county.
(13:09):
That got to be difficult tofind those orders, get the track
record and that kind of thingand find out what, what happened
to the other county.
That's still where the systemcould be improved.
Cary Jacobson (13:19):
Oh, that's interesting.
So there's not a statewideaccess to records that are filed
as far as family law cases areconcerned?
Lance Hillsinger (13:30):
At least not, not for social workers.
I could go down.
If the case was local, I couldgo down and go to the clerk's
office and say I want to filesuch and such and they would
interoffice it to me.
They were very nice, they'dmake copies and then send it
interoffice to me and then Icould read the family law file
at my leisure and not have tosit there.
But if it was another county itwas awkward and sometimes
(13:54):
difficult.
Yes, wasn't that often, butwhen it happened it was awkward.
Cary Jacobson (13:59):
Right Understand.
So you mentioned that most ofthe cases are really related to
substance abuse issues.
So it's really making surethose parents have the resources
they need to get the treatmentnecessary so that you know then
the kids can be returned to them, is that?
Lance Hillsinger (14:19):
the.
That's correct, and there werethree or four residential
programs for mothers andchildren to get their kids back
while they were early intreatment.
The child could be returned tothe mother's care in a
residential facility, but forfathers there wasn't anything.
(14:39):
There was very few residentialprograms in general and I've
never even heard of a programwhere a father could have his
children with him in a treatmentprogram and so you know.
So sometimes I had kids, fathersand los angeles treatment
programs, but they were justjust strictly for men, and so it
was really harder than if yourplace, if you're the dad and
(15:02):
your treatment program is in losangeles county or or modesto or
wherever which is good distanceaway.
Keeping visitation, keepingcontact, having supervised
visitation gets to be a verylogistical nightmare.
Cary Jacobson (15:15):
Right, especially if they have limited resources
and maybe no vehicle and thatsort of thing.
Lance Hillsinger (15:20):
That's right.
Cary Jacobson (15:21):
Yeah, that makes it challenging.
Can you share an example of amediation or a case that had
particular positive outcome forone of the families you were
working with?
Lance Hillsinger (15:34):
That's funny because my recollection is
always the ones that went bad.
It's like it's you know one badexperience.
I have to tell the story.
I had one bad experience atSears years and years ago and I
didn't walk into a Sears storefor years and years because of
that.
So the bad experiences alwaysstand out.
I got to tell you that most ofthem worked out, they were happy
, and people would say whatpower is this?
(15:57):
And I said at some level it'sjust a piece of paper.
But both of you respect thepiece of paper at the end of the
day, because there's many wayspeople can subvert orders or
frustrate them.
That would go under the levelof having you know contempt
charge or something like that.
It's very hard to get somebodyyou know on that when they have
(16:20):
failed to comply with courtorders, and so it has to be the
buy-in.
And I think that most of thetime is that I would tell
parents your kids are going totell you when things are better.
It's it's you don't have theaudience, it's not really the
judge, it's not really me, it'sit's you.
You don't have the audience,it's not really the judge, it's
not really me, it's really yourchildren, and your and your
(16:40):
children are going to tell youthat when things are better and
and that they're going to lookhappier and they're going to be
going, you know they're justgoing to.
You're going to enjoy them morebecause they're not going to be
as stressed out.
Cary Jacobson (16:52):
Absolutely Because things have improved.
Yeah Well, is there any advicethat you would give any of our
listeners related to you knowthe types of cases that you
experienced.
Lance Hillsinger (17:09):
Well, I know that there's a great deal of
frustration there, a lot of fromrelatives.
They will see their, their nenarrative well, nephew of their
narrative well, niece or theirgrandchild or whatever you know.
And, and, yes, I would urgepeople to report and be as
objective as possible um, andwhat may be a big concern to you
(17:31):
and maybe a very small concernto the system, because we see
really really real bad cases.
So my advice would be like,don't expect perfection from
people you know, as long as thechildren are safe and that kind
of thing.
I think that one of the thingsthat kind of strikes me is that
(17:57):
the father should be a littlemore active, you know, not just
in their children's lives, butproactive, legally, not
necessarily in an antagonisticway, but just not be afraid of
the system.
And a lot of the dads are tothe system, uh, and a lot of the
(18:20):
dads, uh, are one.
One attorney asked me.
She asked me why does mrso-and-so, who's the not
offending father?
Um, why doesn't he file forcustody?
Says mary, why don't you changeyour own oil in your car, since
you're afraid you're going tomake things worse?
Oh, yeah, that's right now, shegot it.
She got it why?
Why they don't do it, and so Ithink that there needs to be.
There are legal aid societiesout there, but, um, they, they
(18:42):
don't reach out to men too much,to be honest about that, and
and a lot of times, yes, there'splenty of men who screw up, but
, you know, neither gender has amonopoly on, on virtue.
That's what I would tell people.
Um and uh, a little courtesygoes a long ways, and I know one
of your podcasts you mentionedthis system where people have
their messages to the actsrecorded and monitored, and I
(19:04):
think that's an excellent thing,and I had one client do that
and he was not going to givethat up because he liked that
protection.
It was just a case of just as Iwas retiring.
Cary Jacobson (19:20):
Yeah, so a lot of couples that we work with- I
lost you there.
I said, a lot of couples that wework with use a program called
Our Family Wizard I think iswhat you're kind of referring to
which is a co-parenting appthat allows people to send
messages back and forth.
(19:40):
They can use shared calendars,but one of the like in the
messages it kind of has like atone meter which will allow them
to correct their tone in themessage before they send it, so
it'll be less offending.
Correct their tone in themessage before they send it, so
it'll be less offending.
Lance Hillsinger (20:05):
So it's definitely one that I highly
recommend for folks to use.
You know, to keep everythingtogether.
Cary Jacobson (20:10):
Yes, yes, yeah Well, lance, thank you so much
for sharing your wisdom as wellas your decades of experience.
Just custody and child welfareissues are some of the most
challenging parts of you know,custody cases that we see, and
your perspective really helpedshed some light on the system
and some of the solutions.
I'm so thankful to hear thatmediation was successful in so
(20:35):
many of your cases and for allof our listeners.
You can learn more aboutLance's work and his books,
including In Place of a ParentInside Child Protective Services
, by checking out the links inour show notes.
Lance, where can people findyou today?
Lance Hillsinger (20:50):
My website is LanceHillsinger.
net.
That's really the best place tolook for me.
I also have Spotify, linkedinand that kind of thing, but
really the website's the best.
Just, incidentally, all theroyalties from In Place of the
Parent go to RASOM, ahumanitarian program working in
Ukraine.
There's lots of worthy causesout there.
That's the one that I believein.
(21:11):
I looked at the CharityNavigator and other places to
make sure that they were alegitimate organization and they
are, and so I urge peopleeither to donate directly or buy
one of my books.
The Royalties Go Directly to aWorthy Cause.
Cary Jacobson (21:26):
Well, thank you so much for that.
I appreciate it and for therest of you listeners, if you're
looking for resources tosupport your own divorce journey
, for mediation, flat feeds,legal services, check out our
Stan store at stan.
store/jacobsonfamilylaw.
And thanks again for tuning into Divorce Diaries Lessons from
(21:47):
the Trenches Thanks for joiningus today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Intro/Close (21:52):
Remember every journey is unique, but you don't
have to navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLaw.
com or call 443-726-4912 forsupport and guidance.
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