November 4, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode of Divorce Diaries: Lessons from the Trenches, host Cary Jacobson is joined by Certified Divorce Financial Analyst Allison Terrill to explore how financial experts can help individuals navigate the complex financial aspects of divorce. From understanding asset division and business valuations to planning for long-term stability, this conversation sheds light on the strategies that bring confidence and clarity to the divorce process.
Subscribe for more candid guidance on divorce, custody, and co-parenting, share this with someone who needs a steady voice, and leave a quick review to help others find it. For legal support, visit jacobsonfamilylaw.com. To connect with Catherine or book a complimentary strategy session, head to coveryourassetsdivorce.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Intro/Close (00:01):
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Carrie
Jacobson brings you realstories, hard truths, and
practical advice on navigatingdivorce and family law.
Whether you're going throughit, considering it, or just
curious, this is your place forclarity, confidence, and
resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:24):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, the podcast where wetalk about the emotional,
practical, and legal realitiesof divorce and how to move
forward with strength andclarity.
I'm your host, Carrie Jacobson,divorce attorney, mediator, and
advocate for out-of-courtsolutions.
Today we're talking about oneof the most stressful aspects of
(00:47):
divorce, finances.
My guest today is CatherineHolland.
She is a seasoned financialplanner who has dedicated her
career to empowering womenduring one of life's most
challenging transitions.
Catherine knows from personalexperience that divorce can feel
like watching your house burndown one item at a time.
(01:07):
For her, though, the work isnot just about the numbers.
It's about helping womenrebuild their lives and rise
from the ashes.
As a certified divorcefinancial analyst, Catherine
helps her clients untangle jointfinances, understand alimony,
and build a stable financialfuture.
Her mission is to providecompassionate guidance and
(01:27):
practical solutions that helpwomen step into financial
empowerment.
Catherine, thank you so muchfor being here.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Absolutely.
Well, I would love to hear alittle bit more about your
personal journey and what spotinspired you to become a
financial planner andspecializing in the divorce
(01:48):
process.
Kathryn Holland (01:49):
Yeah, uh so I got divorced 11 years ago.
And before the divorce, I was astay-at-home mom who was
actually homeschooling my kidbecause I was watching public
school kill his sense ofcuriosity.
Um, and I had let my husbandhandle all the finances.
I thought it was boring andthat I was way too busy anyway
(02:14):
with all of my otherobligations.
And so when we could no longerbe married, on top of the guilt
when I told my son that we weregetting divorced and the anxiety
about what was going to do andthe fear about having to
re-enter the workforce, Irealized that I had put myself
in a very vulnerable positionwillfully by not understanding
(02:37):
the house and the finances.
And so during after thedivorce, I decided to interview
some financial advisors and theyall kind of patted me on the
head and they were like, oh,don't worry, we'll take care of
it.
And I was like, that's what gotme here in the first place.
I don't want that.
Um, so I started to study it,and it turns out for me it
wasn't boring.
(02:58):
And in fact, I got a little bitangry.
I have definitely a big chip onmy shoulder about this, but I
got angry that at myself for notdoing this work before.
And at most of society wherenobody talked to me about this
before and how important it isto understand it.
And so I decided to become theperson that I needed when I was
(03:21):
going through my divorce.
I needed a career anyway.
So here we go.
Well, that's an amazing story,you know, to turn something like
a divorce and a vulnerabilityinto now a uh a career where
you're helping people who werein a similar situation.
Now you've described divorce aswatching your house burn down
(03:45):
one item at a time.
Can you explain what you meanby that graphic depiction?
Yeah, um, it's pretty powerfullanguage.
Uh I just it felt like when wewere going through that divorce,
it felt like you we would dragthe couch out onto the lawn and
(04:06):
set it on fire while we arguedover who got it.
And then you bring the dishesout and you set it on fire.
And just how hard isnegotiating over who gets which
Christmas ornament was thehardest one for me.
It was because it that's yourlife you built together thinking
it was gonna be forever and youwere gonna have these memories
(04:27):
and cherish them.
And now you're not even sureyou want to look back on that
year, but you also want your kidto remember it.
And yeah, it just it felt likeat least when your house
accidentally burns up, it's allgone at once, and you don't have
to mourn each thingindividually.
But during the divorce, you do,and it's just so painful, it
(04:48):
sucks, right?
No, that is definitely achallenging situation, it's such
an emotional component, right?
Like even taking the you knowthe finances out of it, which
obviously are complicated, likeyou said, it's the the things
that hold memories that are sochallenging.
(05:09):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's true, like it's true ofeveryone, and it's true of the
finances too.
I'm I'm working with a clientright now, and the wife did not
know that they had significantassets and they had been living
kind of a very thrifty, frugallifestyle the whole 30-year
marriage.
And so when she needed thedivorce, she was terrified that
(05:34):
she wasn't gonna be okay.
And I just just sitting therewith her to let her know how
much she was going to be able towork with going forward was
such an impactful moment for me,too, as well as her.
She just started to cry becausethat relief, uh, the life that
she'd had before is not the lifethat she's going to have to
(05:57):
continue cut but cut in half.
Right.
Yeah.
And it's interesting that she'sactually, it sounds like gonna
walk away with more than sheanticipated because she didn't
know what what she had to beginwith.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Does that happen?
Do you do you run across asimilar situations like that
(06:21):
often?
Uh yeah, I do actually.
So just because you don't youhaven't been paying attention
and you trust the person thatyou pledged to be a partner to
your whole life to let you knowif there's maybe a little extra
money and what do you want to dowith this money?
(06:41):
And frequently, and this is abroad generalization, but the
the masculine energy tends totry and build the whole time.
And this is why people areresistant to retirement
nowadays, too.
Is there all they see is theimportance of building this
thing, but they're building ahouse that nobody's going to
(07:02):
enjoy because there's been somuch stress involved in it.
And so um, I do see that a lotwith with the women and with the
men that I work with, a lot ofthem are most concerned with
keeping as much as they can.
It's yeah.
Yeah.
So for any of our listeners whomay be unfamiliar, can you um
(07:26):
explain what a certified divorcefinancial analyst is?
Obviously, the the abbreviationis a CDFA, um, and what you do
to help people who you'reworking with um during the
divorce process.
Yeah.
So a certified divorcefinancial analyst can help you
(07:47):
in a number of ways.
Um we can, if you're curious toknow what you might have or if
divorce is even a possibility,you can find one to help you
gather that information andthey'll let you know what it
looks like.
So maybe you're curious to knowwhat that would look like.
And sometimes that'll happen,and the couple will realize that
(08:10):
they have enough money and thatit's not worth fighting about
anymore.
And if that was the one thingthat was getting them to think
about divorce, we can fix thatsometimes.
It's just it's the not knowingthat's so hard.
So, so kind of a pre-divorceanalysis of what that would look
like.
Uh, we can help you gather theinformation, we can work with
(08:31):
your attorneys to figure outcreative solutions.
So if you go in front of acourt, that is called the
adversarial system.
Right.
And when it when you'redivorced, which only happens in
about two to three percent ofdivorces, really, and you know,
that what we see on TV andmovies of just fighting, and
(08:51):
then a judge is like, no, andshe gets the kids and
everybody's worse off than everbefore, doesn't really happen
that often.
We do see a lot of contentiousdivorce and a lot of arguments
and dragging their feet, but ifit comes to a judge, they're
just gonna split the baby downthe middle.
Yeah, that's what they do, andyou don't have to do it that
(09:11):
way.
Um, sometimes if let's say youreceived you you worked for
Chevron your whole life and itwas very meaningful to you and
you want to keep all of yourChevron stock, if we're not in
the adversarial system, we cansay, okay, this person keeps
this in exchange for that.
Right.
Additionally, we're looking atwhat the taxable yield, what
(09:34):
what it's gonna look like froman after-tax perspective.
Right.
So if somebody inherits abrokerage account that's that's
taxed at 15% versus a retirementaccount that's taxed at your
income tax rate, that brokerageaccount that's only taxed at 15%
is actually more valuable.
And so, how do we divide all ofthat so that everybody so you
(09:59):
guys keep more of your money andthe IRS gets less money?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So creative solutions.
And then we also do afterdivorce um help.
So after you get a divorce, thelawyer's done, but you're not.
There's still a lot ofadministrative work um and and
considerations to make.
You need to get new estate plandrawn up.
(10:21):
You need to, are you gonnachange your name?
Do you need help with that?
We help you make sure that allof the assets are divided as
they're supposed to be.
We help you make sure that yourspouse is no longer involved in
your credit report, right?
That's a big one.
Sometimes people forget todivide those and then somebody
(10:41):
goes on a spending spree, andnow you've got a FICO score that
doesn't make it possible foryou to rent an apartment.
So we help you consider all ofthat.
We have a lot of good referralsources.
I actually don't do wealthmanagement outside of this work.
So if I think you would benefitfrom working with a wealth
(11:01):
manager, I'll introduce you to acouple.
You can interview them, I cananswer questions for you because
I used to do that and help youreally pick somebody who's going
to work with you in the waythat you need to be worked with,
somebody that has the patienceto work with somebody who maybe
hasn't handled the money before.
Um, and actually, my firm,we're looking at doing
prenuptial work now, where ifyou're when you're getting
(11:24):
married, there's a lot you cando to keep yourself protected in
the instance that we have topull everything apart again.
So um, but that that we'reworking, we're pretty busy right
now, but it's a it's a gameplan.
I'm excited about it.
Well, I think there's definitelya piece of that missing in the
financial world, um, becausepeople who are not kind of
(11:46):
involved in the divorce workdon't necessarily know how some
of like merging accountstogether can impact things.
Um so you know, it's thecommingling of marital and
non-marital assets that often umbecomes an issue.
And I don't think, you know, atleast in my experience, many
(12:10):
financial professionals don'tnecessarily know that that's
even a concern.
Yeah, yeah.
I actually, so because I'm Italk to a lot of financial
advisors, and most of them aremen.
When I'm in a group full of menand they find out what I do,
they love to just tell me howgood they are at helping their
clients with divorces and theydon't need a CDFA.
(12:32):
And I just listen to them talkabout what they're doing, and
I'm always like, ooh, oh, youknow, it's like you don't know
what damage you're doing by nothaving that specialized
knowledge.
Right.
Yeah.
What can someone expect whenthey're first starting to work
with a CDFA?
A lot of nosy questions.
(12:54):
Uh, we we want to know allkinds of things.
We we'd love to, it depends onwhere you are in the process,
but we're going to want to knowas much of the finances as you
know.
We want to know how much youknow and how comfortable you are
working with those numbers.
We I ask for all of thefinancial statements you can
(13:17):
get.
And a lot of people put offlooking at the money because
they they don't know how to getaccess to that information.
So sometimes it's just helpingyou figure out how to get that
information.
Your spouse is required to giveyou that information, and a lot
of people don't understand.
They're like, how do I getthat?
Right.
(13:38):
Just file what you know, andthen they have to let you know
what they know.
So that's that's a big part ofit.
Um, I want to know how longyou've been together before.
I want to know, I don't need toknow why you're getting a
divorce because in the US it'smostly it's nobody's fault in
the eyes of the law.
So that doesn't matter.
But was it a long-termrelationship before the
(13:59):
marriage?
And were you contributing tothe assets?
In some states, you can claimsome of that.
Um, in some states you can't.
So you want to make sure youknow those rules.
Um, and we do a lot of checkingin to see how you're doing.
And I like to end all of mycalls with my clients with what
are you gonna do for yourselftoday?
That's nice because you forgetthat you need to take care of
(14:22):
yourself.
Right.
Absolutely, especially duringthis process because it's so
challenging.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The nice thing is though, thatgives you that sets you up for
success going forward because ifyou need your estate plan done,
we've got all the informationthere.
If you need uh if you need anew financial advisor, we've got
all your information there.
(14:42):
So so it's worth doing it.
And then you get to know whatyou have and you start to feel
like you can do this becauseonce you understand, so there's
a lot of educating for us whenit's in we call it the non-CFO
spouse, is the spouse who maybedidn't handle the money.
It's not that you don't knowhow to do it, and it's not that
(15:02):
you aren't smart enough, it'sjust that nobody taught you in a
way that you understand.
Right.
Einstein says, if you don'tunderstand if you can't explain
it simply, you don't understandit.
So if you're not understandingit, it's the person isn't
explaining it right.
So we do a lot of that worktoo.
Because then you feel confidentmaking the decisions you're
(15:23):
going to have to make thataffect you for the rest of your
life.
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's a definitely a lot ofeducating and getting more
comfortable with understandingthe finances.
How do you help clients who maybe feeling a little overwhelmed
by untangling all of the jointassets or marital assets?
(15:47):
Yeah, it's a lot of remindingpeople that you can't eat an
elephant all in one sitting.
Sometimes you're just one biteat a time.
So some clients they needsomething to do.
So I just I'm constantly givingthem a to-do list.
Some clients need to dosomething and then step back for
a little bit.
And so it depends on on who youare and how overwhelmed you
(16:09):
are, and how many kids you haveand how old you are and how long
the relationship was, becauseall of that comes into play.
Um, but uh I also have all ofmy clients read Mel Robinson's
Let Them Theory or listen to itbecause that really helps you
get through a divorce becauseyou learn to just be like, you
(16:30):
know what, he can be the wayhe's gonna be.
I'm gonna deal with things myown way because you can't
control him.
Yeah.
Understand.
And then you mentioned some ofthe services that you and your
firm provide.
Is one of those also after thedivorce is final, if there are
retirement assets that need tobe divided, making sure that
(16:52):
those accounts are separated?
Yep.
Yep.
We facilitate um getting thequadro, which is the document
that people need to separatethose if they need them.
Some retirement accounts don'tneed them, so we make sure you
don't pay for it if you don'tneed it too.
Perfect.
Now I see we, you know, we haveseen an uptick, and you
(17:16):
mentioned working with a clientwho had been together for 30
years.
Um, you know, so we've so we'veseen an uptick in what we refer
to as gray divorce, um, whichare those couples who are over
50 or 55.
Can you explain how retirementincome planning changes for
someone who is going through a agray divorce compared to
(17:36):
someone who might be younger andyou know not in that that time
frame?
Yeah, that is such a goodquestion.
Um, because grey divorce is thehighest growing sector of
divorce.
Um so when you're getting adivorce at 50 or 55 or later,
I've I have some couples who arein their 70s.
(17:59):
Same.
Um, it's vital that you get itright because you can't go back
to work at the same way you usedto be able to and recover
financially.
And so you really need to, youneed the help understanding how
your taxes are going to changebecause you're not going to be
married filing jointly anymore.
(18:19):
Um, you need to understand howyour property taxes might
change.
If you move from one house toanother, you're gonna have a
different property tax bill, andevery state is different.
Here in California, one personcan transfer the low property
tax, and the other person'sgonna end up paying a new higher
property tax.
So you need to consider all ofthat in the retirement planning.
(18:44):
Um, really, the least importantpart of that is how you're
gonna get that income.
It's more what is that incomegoing to have to cover now that
you're going forward as a singleperson?
And then we do, you know, we dolifestyle analysis and we do
look at what you're going tohave and we help you come up
with some ideas on what youmight want to think about and
(19:05):
what questions to ask yourfinancial person.
Got it.
Yeah.
One of the things that youmentioned earlier was, you know,
empowering your clients.
How do you approach financialempowerment as part of the
healing process during your, youknow, when you're working with
(19:26):
clients?
Yeah.
That's one of my favoritequestions because I love doing
this.
Um, because I really I channelwhat it felt like.
I remember I was doing when Iwas in that usually people take
about two years to come to theconclusion that they're going to
need to get a divorce.
And I remember in that time,I'd be at the park with my son
(19:49):
and I would just be walking incircles.
And all I would think aboutwas, am I gonna be okay?
How am I gonna do this?
Do it, can I really go back towork?
And I channel that when I'mworking with somebody who is
where I was back then.
Yeah.
Because if I talk to them theway I talk to a sophisticated
wealth client I've been workingwith for 10 years, it's just
(20:11):
gonna go over their head andthey're gonna feel more
overwhelmed.
Right.
But if I build them up instead,that feeling that you are in
control, because understandingis control, right?
It just sets you up for thatthat next phase in life, which
is a beautiful, beautiful,beautiful phase.
(20:33):
I am so glad.
I mean, it hurts and it sucks,but I'm so glad I got a divorce.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and it sounds like you'redoing a great job of ensuring
that your clients who are inthat, you know, vulnerable spot
are built up so that they areempowered to make those
important decisions related tothe finances that are going to
(20:56):
move them forward.
What's the first step that yourecommend for women who are, you
know, feel completely lost whenit comes to their finances?
Are there any things,educational tools or anything
along those lines that yourecommend for people to um to
(21:16):
use about so that they can learnmore about the finances?
Yeah, there are some there's agrowing trend to hire divorce
coaches, and they can reallyhelp put things in perspective.
Um you know, they say when ifyou get lost in the woods, just
(21:37):
stand still, right?
So, so stand still and findyourself an anchor point.
I think that that really findsomebody who knows what they're
talking about and have them helpyou.
Because even if it's a friendwho has been through it, even if
you don't have the money tohire all of these, because you
(21:59):
know, if you hire a CDFA and adivorce coach, it every person
you add to your team adds to thecost.
But there are a lot of goodfree resources out there too.
Um social media's got somepretty good people out there
talking about things.
Yeah.
Um, Alex Beattie, I don't knowif I can shout out people.
Um, she has a very robust pageof free resources.
(22:24):
I'm sure a lot of other divorcecoaches that I've seen out
there do also.
So uh, and that's the beauty ofAI, is it's made it a lot
easier for everybody to get thisinformation out there.
Yeah, because the women who'vebeen through this all want to
help you, right?
Yeah, because they have beenthrough it and they they know
(22:44):
what it's like, so they want tohelp others who are going
through it next.
Yeah.
Yeah, we all understand thatwhen you get to that top rung,
you reach down and pull somebodyelse up.
Yeah.
What's the most important thingwomen should keep in mind when
they're planning for theirfinancial future after divorce?
You know, I haven't reallythought of that question.
(23:06):
I think it's that you need tobe comfortable being responsible
for every decision you makefrom now on.
And so constant learning.
Okay, and also embracing thatyou are capable of doing this.
(23:26):
I think that's probably thefirst thing you need to do is do
that work on yourself tounderstand.
Because some women are in asituation where they're
constantly being told they'renot smart enough, and that's not
the case.
Any idiot can manage money, Ipromise you.
There's lots of people who haveno idea what they're doing who
are doing okay.
Right.
You can do this.
(23:47):
Yeah.
And you just have to be willingto take on that challenge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, what's one piece of advicethat you would give someone who
is beginning their divorcejourney?
To learn, figure out what youneed to get rid of the fear.
(24:12):
And that's different foreverybody, right?
But that fear is what isholding you back.
Yeah.
Progress lies in doing thethings you're afraid to do.
So true.
So true.
Well, is there anything elsethat you would like to share
(24:33):
with our listeners before we gotoday?
Uh, just that I'm very proud ofyou for listening to this
podcast and you're doing a greatjob with what you're doing, and
you can do whatever you need todo to live your best life.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for joiningus today, Catherine, and sharing
your wisdom.
(24:54):
We know that divorce can feeloverwhelming, especially when it
comes to money, but you'vereminded us that the financial
empowerment is not onlypossible, but an essential part
of the healing and movingforward.
How can our listeners find moreabout you and the services your
firm provides?
Um, my firm is cover your assetsdivorce.
(25:14):
So yeah.
You can find us, we're a littleirreverent, um, but you need
that sometimes.
We're not afraid of dark humor.
Uh, you can find us atwww.coveryourassetsdivorce.com
and you can also schedule acomplimentary 30-minute strategy
session on our from ourwebsite.
Wonderful.
We'll be sure to put that inthe show notes.
(25:35):
And listeners, if you aresomeone who needs legal support
through divorce, custody,co-parenting, the team at
Jacobson Family Law is here tohelp.
Be sure to go to our website,which is JacobsonFamilyLaw.com,
to schedule your consultation.
And don't forget to subscribeto this podcast, share this
episode with a friend, and leavea review if you found it
helpful.
(25:56):
Thanks again for joining us.
I'm your host, Carrie Jacobson.
Intro/Close (26:02):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember, every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLaw.com orcall 443 726 4912 for support
and guidance.
Welcome to Divorce Diaries, where attorney Carrie
Jacobson brings you realstories, hard truths, and
practical advice on navigatingdivorce and family law.
Whether you're going throughit, considering it, or just
curious, this is your place forclarity, confidence, and
resilience.
Cary Jacobson (00:24):
Welcome back to Divorce Diaries Lessons from the
Trenches, the podcast where wetalk about the emotional,
practical, and legal realitiesof divorce and how to move
forward with strength andclarity.
I'm your host, Carrie Jacobson,divorce attorney, mediator, and
advocate for out-of-courtsolutions.
Today we're talking about oneof the most stressful aspects of
(00:47):
divorce, finances.
My guest today is CatherineHolland.
She is a seasoned financialplanner who has dedicated her
career to empowering womenduring one of life's most
challenging transitions.
Catherine knows from personalexperience that divorce can feel
like watching your house burndown one item at a time.
(01:07):
For her, though, the work isnot just about the numbers.
It's about helping womenrebuild their lives and rise
from the ashes.
As a certified divorcefinancial analyst, Catherine
helps her clients untangle jointfinances, understand alimony,
and build a stable financialfuture.
Her mission is to providecompassionate guidance and
(01:27):
practical solutions that helpwomen step into financial
empowerment.
Catherine, thank you so muchfor being here.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Absolutely.
Well, I would love to hear alittle bit more about your
personal journey and what spotinspired you to become a
financial planner andspecializing in the divorce
(01:48):
process.
Kathryn Holland (01:49):
Yeah, uh so I got divorced 11 years ago.
And before the divorce, I was astay-at-home mom who was
actually homeschooling my kidbecause I was watching public
school kill his sense ofcuriosity.
Um, and I had let my husbandhandle all the finances.
I thought it was boring andthat I was way too busy anyway
(02:14):
with all of my otherobligations.
And so when we could no longerbe married, on top of the guilt
when I told my son that we weregetting divorced and the anxiety
about what was going to do andthe fear about having to
re-enter the workforce, Irealized that I had put myself
in a very vulnerable positionwillfully by not understanding
(02:37):
the house and the finances.
And so during after thedivorce, I decided to interview
some financial advisors and theyall kind of patted me on the
head and they were like, oh,don't worry, we'll take care of
it.
And I was like, that's what gotme here in the first place.
I don't want that.
Um, so I started to study it,and it turns out for me it
wasn't boring.
(02:58):
And in fact, I got a little bitangry.
I have definitely a big chip onmy shoulder about this, but I
got angry that at myself for notdoing this work before.
And at most of society wherenobody talked to me about this
before and how important it isto understand it.
And so I decided to become theperson that I needed when I was
(03:21):
going through my divorce.
I needed a career anyway.
So here we go.
Well, that's an amazing story,you know, to turn something like
a divorce and a vulnerabilityinto now a uh a career where
you're helping people who werein a similar situation.
Now you've described divorce aswatching your house burn down
(03:45):
one item at a time.
Can you explain what you meanby that graphic depiction?
Yeah, um, it's pretty powerfullanguage.
Uh I just it felt like when wewere going through that divorce,
it felt like you we would dragthe couch out onto the lawn and
(04:06):
set it on fire while we arguedover who got it.
And then you bring the dishesout and you set it on fire.
And just how hard isnegotiating over who gets which
Christmas ornament was thehardest one for me.
It was because it that's yourlife you built together thinking
it was gonna be forever and youwere gonna have these memories
(04:27):
and cherish them.
And now you're not even sureyou want to look back on that
year, but you also want your kidto remember it.
And yeah, it just it felt likeat least when your house
accidentally burns up, it's allgone at once, and you don't have
to mourn each thingindividually.
But during the divorce, you do,and it's just so painful, it
(04:48):
sucks, right?
No, that is definitely achallenging situation, it's such
an emotional component, right?
Like even taking the you knowthe finances out of it, which
obviously are complicated, likeyou said, it's the the things
that hold memories that are sochallenging.
(05:09):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's true, like it's true ofeveryone, and it's true of the
finances too.
I'm I'm working with a clientright now, and the wife did not
know that they had significantassets and they had been living
kind of a very thrifty, frugallifestyle the whole 30-year
marriage.
And so when she needed thedivorce, she was terrified that
(05:34):
she wasn't gonna be okay.
And I just just sitting therewith her to let her know how
much she was going to be able towork with going forward was
such an impactful moment for me,too, as well as her.
She just started to cry becausethat relief, uh, the life that
she'd had before is not the lifethat she's going to have to
(05:57):
continue cut but cut in half.
Right.
Yeah.
And it's interesting that she'sactually, it sounds like gonna
walk away with more than sheanticipated because she didn't
know what what she had to beginwith.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Does that happen?
Do you do you run across asimilar situations like that
(06:21):
often?
Uh yeah, I do actually.
So just because you don't youhaven't been paying attention
and you trust the person thatyou pledged to be a partner to
your whole life to let you knowif there's maybe a little extra
money and what do you want to dowith this money?
(06:41):
And frequently, and this is abroad generalization, but the
the masculine energy tends totry and build the whole time.
And this is why people areresistant to retirement
nowadays, too.
Is there all they see is theimportance of building this
thing, but they're building ahouse that nobody's going to
(07:02):
enjoy because there's been somuch stress involved in it.
And so um, I do see that a lotwith with the women and with the
men that I work with, a lot ofthem are most concerned with
keeping as much as they can.
It's yeah.
Yeah.
So for any of our listeners whomay be unfamiliar, can you um
(07:26):
explain what a certified divorcefinancial analyst is?
Obviously, the the abbreviationis a CDFA, um, and what you do
to help people who you'reworking with um during the
divorce process.
Yeah.
So a certified divorcefinancial analyst can help you
(07:47):
in a number of ways.
Um we can, if you're curious toknow what you might have or if
divorce is even a possibility,you can find one to help you
gather that information andthey'll let you know what it
looks like.
So maybe you're curious to knowwhat that would look like.
And sometimes that'll happen,and the couple will realize that
(08:10):
they have enough money and thatit's not worth fighting about
anymore.
And if that was the one thingthat was getting them to think
about divorce, we can fix thatsometimes.
It's just it's the not knowingthat's so hard.
So, so kind of a pre-divorceanalysis of what that would look
like.
Uh, we can help you gather theinformation, we can work with
(08:31):
your attorneys to figure outcreative solutions.
So if you go in front of acourt, that is called the
adversarial system.
Right.
And when it when you'redivorced, which only happens in
about two to three percent ofdivorces, really, and you know,
that what we see on TV andmovies of just fighting, and
(08:51):
then a judge is like, no, andshe gets the kids and
everybody's worse off than everbefore, doesn't really happen
that often.
We do see a lot of contentiousdivorce and a lot of arguments
and dragging their feet, but ifit comes to a judge, they're
just gonna split the baby downthe middle.
Yeah, that's what they do, andyou don't have to do it that
(09:11):
way.
Um, sometimes if let's say youreceived you you worked for
Chevron your whole life and itwas very meaningful to you and
you want to keep all of yourChevron stock, if we're not in
the adversarial system, we cansay, okay, this person keeps
this in exchange for that.
Right.
Additionally, we're looking atwhat the taxable yield, what
(09:34):
what it's gonna look like froman after-tax perspective.
Right.
So if somebody inherits abrokerage account that's that's
taxed at 15% versus a retirementaccount that's taxed at your
income tax rate, that brokerageaccount that's only taxed at 15%
is actually more valuable.
And so, how do we divide all ofthat so that everybody so you
(09:59):
guys keep more of your money andthe IRS gets less money?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So creative solutions.
And then we also do afterdivorce um help.
So after you get a divorce, thelawyer's done, but you're not.
There's still a lot ofadministrative work um and and
considerations to make.
You need to get new estate plandrawn up.
(10:21):
You need to, are you gonnachange your name?
Do you need help with that?
We help you make sure that allof the assets are divided as
they're supposed to be.
We help you make sure that yourspouse is no longer involved in
your credit report, right?
That's a big one.
Sometimes people forget todivide those and then somebody
(10:41):
goes on a spending spree, andnow you've got a FICO score that
doesn't make it possible foryou to rent an apartment.
So we help you consider all ofthat.
We have a lot of good referralsources.
I actually don't do wealthmanagement outside of this work.
So if I think you would benefitfrom working with a wealth
(11:01):
manager, I'll introduce you to acouple.
You can interview them, I cananswer questions for you because
I used to do that and help youreally pick somebody who's going
to work with you in the waythat you need to be worked with,
somebody that has the patienceto work with somebody who maybe
hasn't handled the money before.
Um, and actually, my firm,we're looking at doing
prenuptial work now, where ifyou're when you're getting
(11:24):
married, there's a lot you cando to keep yourself protected in
the instance that we have topull everything apart again.
So um, but that that we'reworking, we're pretty busy right
now, but it's a it's a gameplan.
I'm excited about it.
Well, I think there's definitelya piece of that missing in the
financial world, um, becausepeople who are not kind of
(11:46):
involved in the divorce workdon't necessarily know how some
of like merging accountstogether can impact things.
Um so you know, it's thecommingling of marital and
non-marital assets that often umbecomes an issue.
And I don't think, you know, atleast in my experience, many
(12:10):
financial professionals don'tnecessarily know that that's
even a concern.
Yeah, yeah.
I actually, so because I'm Italk to a lot of financial
advisors, and most of them aremen.
When I'm in a group full of menand they find out what I do,
they love to just tell me howgood they are at helping their
clients with divorces and theydon't need a CDFA.
(12:32):
And I just listen to them talkabout what they're doing, and
I'm always like, ooh, oh, youknow, it's like you don't know
what damage you're doing by nothaving that specialized
knowledge.
Right.
Yeah.
What can someone expect whenthey're first starting to work
with a CDFA?
A lot of nosy questions.
(12:54):
Uh, we we want to know allkinds of things.
We we'd love to, it depends onwhere you are in the process,
but we're going to want to knowas much of the finances as you
know.
We want to know how much youknow and how comfortable you are
working with those numbers.
We I ask for all of thefinancial statements you can
(13:17):
get.
And a lot of people put offlooking at the money because
they they don't know how to getaccess to that information.
So sometimes it's just helpingyou figure out how to get that
information.
Your spouse is required to giveyou that information, and a lot
of people don't understand.
They're like, how do I getthat?
Right.
(13:38):
Just file what you know, andthen they have to let you know
what they know.
So that's that's a big part ofit.
Um, I want to know how longyou've been together before.
I want to know, I don't need toknow why you're getting a
divorce because in the US it'smostly it's nobody's fault in
the eyes of the law.
So that doesn't matter.
But was it a long-termrelationship before the
(13:59):
marriage?
And were you contributing tothe assets?
In some states, you can claimsome of that.
Um, in some states you can't.
So you want to make sure youknow those rules.
Um, and we do a lot of checkingin to see how you're doing.
And I like to end all of mycalls with my clients with what
are you gonna do for yourselftoday?
That's nice because you forgetthat you need to take care of
(14:22):
yourself.
Right.
Absolutely, especially duringthis process because it's so
challenging.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The nice thing is though, thatgives you that sets you up for
success going forward because ifyou need your estate plan done,
we've got all the informationthere.
If you need uh if you need anew financial advisor, we've got
all your information there.
(14:42):
So so it's worth doing it.
And then you get to know whatyou have and you start to feel
like you can do this becauseonce you understand, so there's
a lot of educating for us whenit's in we call it the non-CFO
spouse, is the spouse who maybedidn't handle the money.
It's not that you don't knowhow to do it, and it's not that
(15:02):
you aren't smart enough, it'sjust that nobody taught you in a
way that you understand.
Right.
Einstein says, if you don'tunderstand if you can't explain
it simply, you don't understandit.
So if you're not understandingit, it's the person isn't
explaining it right.
So we do a lot of that worktoo.
Because then you feel confidentmaking the decisions you're
(15:23):
going to have to make thataffect you for the rest of your
life.
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's a definitely a lot ofeducating and getting more
comfortable with understandingthe finances.
How do you help clients who maybe feeling a little overwhelmed
by untangling all of the jointassets or marital assets?
(15:47):
Yeah, it's a lot of remindingpeople that you can't eat an
elephant all in one sitting.
Sometimes you're just one biteat a time.
So some clients they needsomething to do.
So I just I'm constantly givingthem a to-do list.
Some clients need to dosomething and then step back for
a little bit.
And so it depends on on who youare and how overwhelmed you
(16:09):
are, and how many kids you haveand how old you are and how long
the relationship was, becauseall of that comes into play.
Um, but uh I also have all ofmy clients read Mel Robinson's
Let Them Theory or listen to itbecause that really helps you
get through a divorce becauseyou learn to just be like, you
(16:30):
know what, he can be the wayhe's gonna be.
I'm gonna deal with things myown way because you can't
control him.
Yeah.
Understand.
And then you mentioned some ofthe services that you and your
firm provide.
Is one of those also after thedivorce is final, if there are
retirement assets that need tobe divided, making sure that
(16:52):
those accounts are separated?
Yep.
Yep.
We facilitate um getting thequadro, which is the document
that people need to separatethose if they need them.
Some retirement accounts don'tneed them, so we make sure you
don't pay for it if you don'tneed it too.
Perfect.
Now I see we, you know, we haveseen an uptick, and you
(17:16):
mentioned working with a clientwho had been together for 30
years.
Um, you know, so we've so we'veseen an uptick in what we refer
to as gray divorce, um, whichare those couples who are over
50 or 55.
Can you explain how retirementincome planning changes for
someone who is going through a agray divorce compared to
(17:36):
someone who might be younger andyou know not in that that time
frame?
Yeah, that is such a goodquestion.
Um, because grey divorce is thehighest growing sector of
divorce.
Um so when you're getting adivorce at 50 or 55 or later,
I've I have some couples who arein their 70s.
(17:59):
Same.
Um, it's vital that you get itright because you can't go back
to work at the same way you usedto be able to and recover
financially.
And so you really need to, youneed the help understanding how
your taxes are going to changebecause you're not going to be
married filing jointly anymore.
(18:19):
Um, you need to understand howyour property taxes might
change.
If you move from one house toanother, you're gonna have a
different property tax bill, andevery state is different.
Here in California, one personcan transfer the low property
tax, and the other person'sgonna end up paying a new higher
property tax.
So you need to consider all ofthat in the retirement planning.
(18:44):
Um, really, the least importantpart of that is how you're
gonna get that income.
It's more what is that incomegoing to have to cover now that
you're going forward as a singleperson?
And then we do, you know, we dolifestyle analysis and we do
look at what you're going tohave and we help you come up
with some ideas on what youmight want to think about and
(19:05):
what questions to ask yourfinancial person.
Got it.
Yeah.
One of the things that youmentioned earlier was, you know,
empowering your clients.
How do you approach financialempowerment as part of the
healing process during your, youknow, when you're working with
(19:26):
clients?
Yeah.
That's one of my favoritequestions because I love doing
this.
Um, because I really I channelwhat it felt like.
I remember I was doing when Iwas in that usually people take
about two years to come to theconclusion that they're going to
need to get a divorce.
And I remember in that time,I'd be at the park with my son
(19:49):
and I would just be walking incircles.
And all I would think aboutwas, am I gonna be okay?
How am I gonna do this?
Do it, can I really go back towork?
And I channel that when I'mworking with somebody who is
where I was back then.
Yeah.
Because if I talk to them theway I talk to a sophisticated
wealth client I've been workingwith for 10 years, it's just
(20:11):
gonna go over their head andthey're gonna feel more
overwhelmed.
Right.
But if I build them up instead,that feeling that you are in
control, because understandingis control, right?
It just sets you up for thatthat next phase in life, which
is a beautiful, beautiful,beautiful phase.
(20:33):
I am so glad.
I mean, it hurts and it sucks,but I'm so glad I got a divorce.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and it sounds like you'redoing a great job of ensuring
that your clients who are inthat, you know, vulnerable spot
are built up so that they areempowered to make those
important decisions related tothe finances that are going to
(20:56):
move them forward.
What's the first step that yourecommend for women who are, you
know, feel completely lost whenit comes to their finances?
Are there any things,educational tools or anything
along those lines that yourecommend for people to um to
(21:16):
use about so that they can learnmore about the finances?
Yeah, there are some there's agrowing trend to hire divorce
coaches, and they can reallyhelp put things in perspective.
Um you know, they say when ifyou get lost in the woods, just
(21:37):
stand still, right?
So, so stand still and findyourself an anchor point.
I think that that really findsomebody who knows what they're
talking about and have them helpyou.
Because even if it's a friendwho has been through it, even if
you don't have the money tohire all of these, because you
(21:59):
know, if you hire a CDFA and adivorce coach, it every person
you add to your team adds to thecost.
But there are a lot of goodfree resources out there too.
Um social media's got somepretty good people out there
talking about things.
Yeah.
Um, Alex Beattie, I don't knowif I can shout out people.
Um, she has a very robust pageof free resources.
(22:24):
I'm sure a lot of other divorcecoaches that I've seen out
there do also.
So uh, and that's the beauty ofAI, is it's made it a lot
easier for everybody to get thisinformation out there.
Yeah, because the women who'vebeen through this all want to
help you, right?
Yeah, because they have beenthrough it and they they know
(22:44):
what it's like, so they want tohelp others who are going
through it next.
Yeah.
Yeah, we all understand thatwhen you get to that top rung,
you reach down and pull somebodyelse up.
Yeah.
What's the most important thingwomen should keep in mind when
they're planning for theirfinancial future after divorce?
You know, I haven't reallythought of that question.
(23:06):
I think it's that you need tobe comfortable being responsible
for every decision you makefrom now on.
And so constant learning.
Okay, and also embracing thatyou are capable of doing this.
(23:26):
I think that's probably thefirst thing you need to do is do
that work on yourself tounderstand.
Because some women are in asituation where they're
constantly being told they'renot smart enough, and that's not
the case.
Any idiot can manage money, Ipromise you.
There's lots of people who haveno idea what they're doing who
are doing okay.
Right.
You can do this.
(23:47):
Yeah.
And you just have to be willingto take on that challenge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, what's one piece of advicethat you would give someone who
is beginning their divorcejourney?
To learn, figure out what youneed to get rid of the fear.
(24:12):
And that's different foreverybody, right?
But that fear is what isholding you back.
Yeah.
Progress lies in doing thethings you're afraid to do.
So true.
So true.
Well, is there anything elsethat you would like to share
(24:33):
with our listeners before we gotoday?
Uh, just that I'm very proud ofyou for listening to this
podcast and you're doing a greatjob with what you're doing, and
you can do whatever you need todo to live your best life.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for joiningus today, Catherine, and sharing
your wisdom.
(24:54):
We know that divorce can feeloverwhelming, especially when it
comes to money, but you'vereminded us that the financial
empowerment is not onlypossible, but an essential part
of the healing and movingforward.
How can our listeners find moreabout you and the services your
firm provides?
Um, my firm is cover your assetsdivorce.
(25:14):
So yeah.
You can find us, we're a littleirreverent, um, but you need
that sometimes.
We're not afraid of dark humor.
Uh, you can find us atwww.coveryourassetsdivorce.com
and you can also schedule acomplimentary 30-minute strategy
session on our from ourwebsite.
Wonderful.
We'll be sure to put that inthe show notes.
(25:35):
And listeners, if you aresomeone who needs legal support
through divorce, custody,co-parenting, the team at
Jacobson Family Law is here tohelp.
Be sure to go to our website,which is JacobsonFamilyLaw.com,
to schedule your consultation.
And don't forget to subscribeto this podcast, share this
episode with a friend, and leavea review if you found it
helpful.
(25:56):
Thanks again for joining us.
I'm your host, Carrie Jacobson.
Intro/Close (26:02):
Thanks for joining us today on this episode of
Divorce Diaries.
Remember, every journey isunique, but you don't have to
navigate it alone.
Visit JacobsonFamilyLaw.com orcall 443 726 4912 for support
and guidance.
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