As we round off a year of profound transformation in the dog training realm, I, Will Bangura, extend my deepest gratitude to you, our valued listeners, for journeying with us through the shifting tides of canine training philosophies. From the intense debates on balanced versus force-free training to the rising wave of animal welfare-focused practices, we've dissected the controversial aspects of our industry together. Our discussions have not only been about the tools of the trade but also the heart behind each technique, as we've navigated the complexities of legislation, the influence of social media, and the pioneering shift to virtual consultations.
Unraveling the ethics of dog training, we've probed the layers beneath common methods, examining the emotional consequences of aversive tools versus the benefits of positive reinforcement. Our examination has led us to advocate for a kinder approach that teaches alternative behaviors, challenging the quick-fix allure of punishment-based training. Through the insights of industry experts and the candid stories shared by our guests, we've debunked the myths surrounding force-free training, empowering both pet parents and professionals with knowledge to make informed choices for the well-being of our four-legged companions.
As we stand on the cusp of 2024, our conversation takes a hopeful turn towards a future where understanding and compassion reign supreme in the dog training landscape. With National Train Your Dog Month on the horizon, I invite you to join me in championing a shift in mindset—one that embraces nurturing environments and the importance of owner education. Let's pledge to forge ahead, supporting pet parents in adopting positive reinforcement strategies, ensuring that the legacy we leave for our dogs is one filled with patience, understanding, and mutual respect.
If you need professional help please visit my Dog Behaviorist website.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Raised by wolves with canine DNA and his blood.
Having trained more than 24,000vets helping you and your fur
babies thrive, live in studiowith Will Bangura answering your
pet behavior and trainingquestions.
Ladies and gentlemen, pleasewelcome your host and favorite
pet behavior expert, willBangura.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Would you like to go on Wookiees?
Good day, dog lovers.
I'm Will Bangura.
Thanks for joining me for thelast episode of 2023.
This is dog training today.
Yeah, I want to take I want totake this time to thank all of
(00:54):
you, all of you that are loyalsubscribers, loyal listeners to
dog training today, that havebeen around since it was pet
talk today.
You've seen a lot throughoutthe year that we've talked about
, and I want to take this timeto talk about 2023 and kind of
(01:18):
do the year in review when itcomes to dog training and the
dog training industry, the dogtraining world, so kind of doing
a 2023 wrap up and then kind oftalking a little bit about 2024
.
Well, you know, we're just aboutdone with 2023.
(01:40):
It's December 26, so we've gota few days left in the year and
once again, we've gone anotheryear where the dog training
industry is not regulated.
The dog training industryremains unregulated, with no
formal education requirements.
(02:02):
There's also that ongoing,continuing debate between
balanced trainers and force freetrainers, and there's been a
big shift, and one of the bigshifts in the world of animal
(02:22):
training is in the area ofanimal welfare.
See, it's not just about whattools, what techniques, what
methodology, what philosophy oftraining works?
There's different things thatwork.
However, is it in the bestinterest of your dog's welfare,
(02:48):
of the animals welfare, alright?
So I want to talk a little bitabout that, also in 2023.
You know, there's still thattrend of banning aversive tools
in dog training banning prongcollars and banning shock
collars.
(03:08):
In some cases, in some areas ofthe world, even choke collars.
So I want to talk about that.
I want to talk about wherethings are at as far as banning
tools and what is my opinion onthis whole idea of banning tools
.
And, for some of you, we needto talk about what's an aversive
(03:30):
and why is that important tothe industry?
Alright, and taking that andflipping it on the other side,
let's talk about purely positivetraining.
Is there such a thing?
(03:50):
Is there such a thing as purelypositive training?
I don't know.
And also, we want to talk aboutin 2023.
We started hearing a lot.
The verbiage we started hearingwas choice and consent in dog
(04:15):
training methods.
Choice and consent in dogtraining methods, and what does
that mean?
And then I want to talk about,you know, influencers.
Alright, there are some veryinfluential figures in the dog
training world that have hugefollowing on social media A
(04:39):
couple hundred thousand, in somecases maybe even more than a
couple hundred thousandfollowers and there have been
several that have fallen out oftouch with current best
practices in training.
I also want to talk aboutcertification, the voluntary
certifications and theirsignificance in 2023 and moving
(05:02):
forward into 2024.
And there's a lot of infightingjust within the certification
associations, and what kind ofan impact does that have on the
dog training industry?
And we would be remiss if wedidn't talk about virtual
(05:29):
consultations and virtualtraining, the rise in virtual
consultations and training sinceCOVID and where things are at
today in 2023 and moving into2024.
And then I want to take alittle bit about talking about
YouTube, dog trainers andspecifically the dog daddy
(05:50):
phenomenon and what that meansfor the dog training industry
and moving forward for 2024.
But let's start.
Let's start by talking aboutthe fact that the dog training
industry is still not regulated.
(06:13):
There are no requirements forregulation.
There's no requirements foreducation in the dog training
industry.
Now, those of you that are petparents, dog owners, you know
this.
We've got a lot of dog trainers.
We've got a lot of behaviorconsultants, veterinarians,
(06:35):
behaviorists, even veterinarybehaviorists that listen to this
podcast.
We've got a lot of vet techsthat listen to this podcast and
so, where this particularpodcast might be geared more
towards those that are in theprofession, there's a lot that
you pet parents can get out ofthis as well.
(06:55):
For example, when you're lookingfor somebody to help you to
train your pet.
Did you know that the dogtraining industry is not
regulated?
Did you know that there are norequirements to be a dog trainer
, that anybody can callthemselves a dog trainer?
(07:15):
Your next door neighbor mayhave never owned a dog.
Your next door neighbor mayhave never put their hands on a
dog, yet they could callthemselves a dog trainer, sam, a
professional dog trainer, andstart taking clients and
training dogs tomorrow.
There is no governmentoversight.
There's no regulation of thedog training industry.
(07:38):
Now Think about how importantour pets are, think about how
important our dogs are and howwe view our dogs as family, and
look at what we do for our petstoday.
And when you think of that, andwhen you think about the dog
(08:00):
training industry beingunregulated, and you think about
how many pet parents arelooking for a professional to
help them train their dog or todeal with some very, perhaps
specific behavior problems likefears, phobias, anxiety,
reactivity, aggression, phobiasand if you're a pet parent boy,
(08:26):
you could be really, reallyconfused.
You know, you get on theinternet and there's all these
differing opinions.
You get on all of thesedifferent websites for these
so-called professional dogtrainers and you've got all
these varying opinions.
What's right You've got, on onehand, you've got lots of
(08:48):
trainers advocating for the useof purely positive, using
positive reinforcement, notusing corrections, not using
aversives.
Now listen, when I use the wordcorrection, I'm using that
synonymous with punishment, andthat's it.
And let's define punishmentAnything I don't care anything
(09:10):
that causes even the slightestbit of discomfort, fear, pain,
intimidation.
That's a correction, that'spunishment, that's how I'm using
it.
Okay, in 2023, there is thetrend to follow evidence-based
(09:33):
and science-based practices andtraining.
The problem is not everybody'sin agreement.
You've got a dog trainingindustry that is severely
fractured and primarily, it'sfractured into two categories.
(09:55):
One, you've got trainers thatbelieve that it's necessary to
use corrections and again, whenI say correction, I'm talking
about punishment, anything Idon't care what it is Anything
that causes the slightest bit ofdiscomfort or fear, pain or
intimidation.
Science, evidence-basedpractices, science-based
(10:21):
practices and we're not talkingjust one study here.
We're talking multiplepeer-reviewed studies that show
that the most effective and themost efficient way to train a
dog is with positivereinforcement.
And the studies also show thatit's unnecessary here's the word
(10:44):
unnecessary.
It's unnecessary to usepunishment.
It's unnecessary to useaversives.
It's unnecessary to usecorrections and training.
You don't need to do that.
So what does that mean?
It's unnecessary to believethat you have to use any kind of
(11:05):
tool or method of training.
That's going to cause discomfortto your dog.
First of all, it's going toruin your relationship with your
dog if you're the one trainingit.
If you're the one inflictingdiscomfort, what do you suppose
that does to your relationshipwith your dog?
And when your dogs make amistake, when they engage in a
(11:29):
behavior you don't want, chancesare your dog has no clue that
it's not okay.
Your dog's just probably beinga dog and not a, not being
dominant, not being stubborn,not a dog.
(11:51):
And dogs can be unruly, and mydefinition of unruly is you
didn't teach you what the ruleswere.
You know, one of the mostnatural things for a dog to do
is jump up on somebody when theygreet them.
That doesn't mean the dog'sdominant, doesn't mean that the
dog is trying to be.
(12:13):
Alpha Means the dog's jumpinginterested in seeing somebody.
You know when, when the dog wasa puppy, everybody picked it up
, brought it to its chest.
That simulates jumping up.
We teach that inadvertently todogs.
Do we teach an alternativebehavior?
(12:34):
Do we teach a dog, hey, this iswhat I want you to do when a
guest comes over.
I want you to sit politely orlay down or go to your bed or go
to your place and then, when Irelease you, I want you to be
calm and I don't want you to bejumping on anybody.
Did we take the time to teachthe dog what we wanted to do or
(12:55):
do we just get frustrated withnormal behaviors that dogs do
and, because we don't like itand we're frustrated, we start
using punishment, corrections,techniques, tools or a
philosophy of training.
That means, hey, I'm going tocause some discomfort, and
discomfort means stress, anxiety.
(13:17):
So in 2023, there is this hugefocus on animal welfare Can
punishment work?
Can corrections work?
Yes, a, they're not necessary.
So let me ask you this If youhave a choice, if I, if I sit
(13:39):
here and I tell you, hey, youcan train in any behavior and,
by the way, you can train outany behavior just using positive
reinforcement.
You don't need to use a prawncollar.
You don't need to use a shockcollar.
You don't need to yell at yourdog.
No, you don't need to roll up atowel and bunk your dog on the
(14:03):
head.
You don't need to use a canwith some rocks or pennies in it
to throw at the dog, to startlethe dog.
You don't need to use a watersprayer or a spray bottle.
You don't need any of those.
You don't need any tool, an airhorn, anything that's going to
cause discomfort, fear, pain,intimidation.
(14:24):
You don't need any of that, andscience is very clear about
that.
The problem is, as I mentioned,it's 2023.
The dog training industry stillstill is not regulated.
Do you know that the dogtraining industries only
regulated in Germany?
Nowhere else in the world isthe dog training industry
(14:48):
regulated.
Now there's a few cities thathave attempted to do some a
little bit of regulation.
Now let me, just let me bringthis home for you Ladies do you
see a beautician, somebody thatstyles your hair?
Well, chances are if you do,they had to go to school.
(15:11):
They had to go to formalschooling, beauty school, hair
styling school, and it doesn'tmatter where you go to school in
the United States to learn howto do hair.
You're pretty much going tohave the same standardized
curriculum, no matter where yougo to school, throughout the
(15:32):
country.
And after you're done with yourschooling, after you're done
with your trade school, nowyou've got to take a
certification exam.
You have to prove that theeducation that you received, you
(15:53):
got it, you understand it andyou know how to apply that and
that's what standards are andthat's what certification is.
And when you pass certificationnow you can get a license to be
a hairdresser, a beautician,and that's the way it is for
(16:15):
almost every single profession.
We know it's that way fordoctors.
We know it's that way fornurses, right, if you want to be
a doctor, if you want to go tomedical school, I don't care
where you go to medical schoolin this country the curriculum
is going to be almost identical,no matter where you go.
Everybody agrees on what is thestandardized curriculum for
(16:36):
medicine and we come up withthat and we agree upon that,
based on science based andevidence based standards.
Okay, like I said, doctors,nurses, veterinarians, vet techs
, other other trades, like aplumber, right, yeah, there's
(17:03):
school, there are trade schools.
If you want to be a plumber.
I don't care where you go toschool.
Go to plumber school in Arizona.
You go to plumber school inConnecticut.
You go to school to become aplumber in Florida.
You go to school to become aplumber in South Dakota, new
York, california, atlanta.
The education is going to bestandardized.
(17:25):
We agree on the science.
We agree on what science basedand evidence based information
is out there as it pertains tobeing a plumber.
If you want to work on and be aelectrician, same thing,
(17:49):
standardized education.
I don't care where you go toschool.
If you want to be anelectrician, what you're going
to learn in vocational school tobecome electrician is going to
be standardized, no matter whereyou go to school.
And if you do a good job inschool and if you study, you're
(18:10):
going to do well.
And in those professions justlike with doctors and nurses and
veterinarians and vet techsagain, after education,
certification, prove you knowyour stuff.
And when you can passcertification, now you get
(18:32):
licensed licensed as anelectrician or licensed as an
air conditioning and heatingperson, licensed as a
cosmetologist, licensed as adoctor, licensed as a
veterinarian, licensed as a vettech, licensed as a barber,
(18:54):
licensed as a nail tech.
The dog training industry is oneof the few industries that just
cannot get their shit togetherand they can't get organized.
(19:15):
And they cannot agree on whatto teach, and I'm not just, I'm
not talking about that.
They can't agree on what toteach the pet parents and their
and their dogs.
They can't agree on curriculum,and the reason they can't agree
(19:36):
on curriculum for a college,university or a vocational
school to learn how to become adog trainer, because there's a
large group of trainers outthere that believe corrections
are necessary.
(19:56):
There's a large group oftrainers out there that believe
that you have to use punishmentand training.
They believe that you have touse corrections.
They believe that positivereinforcement is limited and the
argument that they'll use ishey, listen, it's not a matter
(20:19):
of.
If it's a matter of when youand your dog get into a
distracting environment orsituation where that distraction
has more value to your dog,then whatever the positive
reinforcer is that you have andif that's the case, you're not
going to be able to control yourdog.
And that's the argument theymake why you need corrections,
(20:44):
when the truth is the fact ofthe matter is you don't need the
correction, you don't have tohave the punishment and the
correction.
And, quite frankly, if youcan't manage and control your
dog with distractions, withpositive reinforcement, you are
(21:05):
just training too fast.
Yeah, your dog's not ready forit.
You've not done enough trainingand conditioning.
Work at lower leveldistractions to teach your dog
how to stay engaged and how topay attention and stay focused.
At lower level distractionsYou're working faster than the
dog's pace.
(21:26):
It's easy.
It's easy to use pressure.
It's easy to use punishment,it's easy to use corrections.
It doesn't take much skill.
I mean, how much skill?
Think about it.
How much skill does it take topush a button on a remote
(21:47):
control that shocks a dog?
How much skill does it take toinflict pain?
How much skill does it take topop a leash and give a leash
correction with a prong collarand cause pain?
(22:08):
Instead of always thinkingabout what you don't want your
dog to do, instead of alwaysthinking that, oh, I don't want
my dog to do that, so let'spunish or correct the dog, let's
make it uncomfortable so thedog won't do it again, instead
of your mindset going alongthose lines, how about you think
(22:29):
about what you want your dog todo?
Is there a behavior that you canteach your dog that if your
dog's committed to that behavior, that behavior would be
incompatible with the behavioryou don't want.
Let me go back to jumping.
If I successfully teach my dogthat when strangers come over or
(22:51):
anybody comes through the doorthat the dog sits or lies down,
and if the dog's committed tothat behavior, the dog can't
jump.
The dog can't be sitting andjumping at the same time.
The dog can't be lying down andjumping at the same time.
It'd have to give up onebehavior for the other.
So you have two choices you canbe the type of trainer or you
(23:14):
can be the type of pet parentthat when your dog does
something wrong and you don'tlike, you could punish the dog.
You could cause fear, pain andintimidation, discomfort.
Or you could be the type oftrainer or the type of pet
parent where, rather than takethe easy way out, the lazy way
out, you can actually developsome really good skills in
(23:43):
animal training and how tomodify behavior.
The classic example of wherethings go wrong are dogs with
aggression issues.
99% of trainers out there aregoing to suppress aggression,
they're going to correct that,punish that and they'll even use
(24:06):
crazy, outdated terms likealpha or dominance, when we know
that's all been disproved, notwith domesticated dogs.
First of all, do you reallythink that the species, the
canine species, is out todominate the human world?
(24:27):
No, they're not trying todominate us.
They're unruly.
Like I said earlier, withoutrules we didn't teach them what
we want.
Now I realize that in Americawe don't have much patience.
I realize in America that wewant things and we want it now.
(24:49):
And there's that allure that,hey, if you've got a dog that's
jumping, if you've got a dogthat's chewing, if you've got a
dog that's running away, ifyou've got a dog that's going to
the bathroom in the house,punish the dog, put a shock
collar on, put a prong collar on, give it a correction.
(25:12):
The one thing you're not doingin any of that is teaching the
dog what you want it to do.
What's the dog's alternative?
You see, when you understandthat all behavior is functional,
in applied behavior analysis,in the science of applied
(25:35):
behavior analysis, we do what'scalled a functional assessment
and that's where we take a lookat the behavior and we identify
what is the purpose of thatbehavior, what is the function
of that behavior, what is theconsequence that occurs?
That is, reinforcing thebehavior.
(25:58):
All behaviors are functional.
So let me give you an example.
A dog is walking down thestreet.
You're walking your dog downthe street and here you turn a
corner and there's a strangerabout 50 feet down on the
sidewalk and your dog's afraidof strangers.
(26:19):
And your dog starts barking andgrowling and lunging.
Its hair stands up on its back,showing its teeth, its pupils
are dilated and the classicexample is correct that behavior
.
Give a lection collarcorrection.
Shock the dog with a shockcollar because you don't like
(26:43):
how your dog's behaving.
The problem is that behavior isnot the issue, that's how it
manifests.
That's the outward behavior yousee.
But what you should be thinkingabout is what's motivating that
behavior?
Why does the dog want to engagein that behavior?
(27:05):
Where is the function?
Where is the purpose?
Well, think about it.
If I'm a dog and I'm afraid ofstrangers and if every time I
bark and I growl and I lunge andI show my teeth, those scary
strangers go whoa and they backaway, or my pet parent takes me
(27:28):
by the leash and pulls me out ofthere, gets me out of that
situation, in both situationsthat behavior of barking,
lunging, showing your teeth,hair raised on its back, got
distance and space from thescary stranger.
(27:50):
That behavior is functional tocreate distance and space.
And that is what the dog wantsIf it's afraid distance and
space.
And that behavior getsreinforced when it works when it
does serve a function.
(28:11):
You don't think of it in thoseterms because it's just behavior
, it just happens.
But if we map that out, if wediagram that out, we've got
what's called the antecedent orthe trigger in this case a
stranger and that triggers thedog's behavior.
In this case we said it'sbarking, lunging, growling,
(28:33):
showing its teeth, hair raisedon its back.
Those are all outward, visiblesigns of behavior.
And those signs, those outwardbehaviors, are rooted in a
conditioned emotional responsethat the dog has developed with
(28:56):
strangers.
The dog associates strangerswith a threat and the dog begins
to experience stress and fearand anxiety.
That's what is the underlyingemotional state that motivates
the dog's behavior.
If the dog, if those emotionswere fixed, if the dog did not
(29:22):
have a perception that strangersare scary, if you could change
the emotions of the dog, wherethe dog doesn't have fear,
anxiety or stress associatedwith strangers, the behavior
will go away and you're going tomodify that behavior with
(29:42):
permanence and reliability,because you're actually dealing
with the underlying root cause.
Now, if you're just suppressingoutward behavior by using
punishment and corrections andyou're never addressing that
underlying emotional state, ifyou're not modifying how that
dog perceives the strange people.
(30:06):
If you're not changing thedog's underlying emotional state
as it relates to strangers,things don't get better and
punishment is just smoke andmirrors.
You might temporarily stop thatoutward behavior and fool
yourself into thinking thatthere's been change, when there
(30:29):
hasn't been change, it's justbeen suppression.
And as you suppress thatbehavior it adds more anxiety,
more stress, more fear and inthe long run it makes things
worse.
But, if you don't understand thescience, if you don't
(30:54):
understand what science istelling us, you could be making
poor choices.
You could be misunderstandingwhat's happening.
You know, I can understandwhere people would think that
punishment corrections actuallychanges behavior when it comes
to aggression.
You would think so.
(31:16):
Maybe common sense would makeyou think that, but common sense
isn't always correct.
What does the science say?
What is the science and theresearch say?
Is there evidence to show anyvalidity behind that?
(31:41):
When we deny science, when werefuse to look at the facts and
we start creating our ownalternate reality, our own
alternate facts, that's when wedescend into chaos.
(32:01):
I mean, if we're both lookingat a strawberry and I say, hey,
that's strawberries red, and youjust keep insisting it's blue,
how are we supposed to get along, how are we supposed to move
forward if we can't even agreeon basic tenants?
(32:21):
And when it comes to traininganimals, one of the basic
tenants today in science is thatyou don't need to use aversives
, that it's a choice.
And based on what we know aboutour pets, based on the fact
(32:48):
that they're sentient beings,based on the fact that they do
have feelings and thoughts andthey can experience feelings and
thoughts, should we be trainingthe dog with a shock collar Now
(33:09):
, when we didn't know better,when we didn't have the research
, when we didn't have thescience, that's one thing, but
it's a whole different situationwhen there's a multitude of
studies and all of the biganimal welfare organizations
(33:32):
have all spoken out the AmericanSociety of Veterinary Behavior,
the American Humane Society,the ASPCA, on and on and on.
I could read many, many more.
I could tell you many, manymore.
They're all in agreement.
You don't need to usepunishment that it's outdated.
Those are old, archaic,outdated ways of training.
(33:54):
Now, like I said, the dogtraining industry is not
regulated and the dog trainingindustry is fractured.
And the dog training industryis fractured along the lines.
You've got trainers that agreewith the science and say, hey,
you don't need to use punishment, you don't need to use
(34:18):
aversives, you shouldn't use aprawn collar, you shouldn't use
a choke collar, you shouldn'tuse a shock collar that you can
train in any behavior withpositive reinforcement.
You can modify any behaviorwith positive reinforcement.
And it's about ethics andanimal welfare and how you view
(34:40):
your dog.
I mean most people view theirdogs as family, any other family
members that you want to modifytheir behaviors with a prawn
collar or a shock collar Today,the insanity of 2023, here we
(35:08):
are trying to make progress withscience-based and
evidence-based training and herecomes along the dog daddy.
Augusto de la Vera comes ontothe scene with one, two, three
million followers in socialmedia and this guy has no formal
(35:34):
education, has nocertifications and literally his
method of training, and hefocuses on aggressive dogs.
And, by the way, all aggression, 99.9999% of all aggression, is
(35:58):
based in fear.
What animal, what animal Dog,cat, human, what animal goes
into fight or flight unless theyperceive a threat?
Now, that doesn't mean therehas to be a real threat, but
when an animal goes into fightor flight, so when they're
(36:19):
aggressive, when they go intofight or flight, is because they
perceive something asthreatening.
In order to perceive somethingas threatening, your underlying
emotional state is anxiety, fearand stress.
All aggression is based in fear.
It's the fear that needs tochange and you change that fear
(36:44):
and the aggressive behavior goesaway.
You punish the outwardaggressive behavior and you
merely temporarily suppress thatbehavior, because the dog is
now too afraid, too intimidated,doesn't want to experience that
discomfort again and it knowshey, if I do that, you're going
to shock me, or if I do thatagain, you're going to use that
(37:07):
leash and collar, but the dog'sstill afraid and you did nothing
to change it.
So what does the dog daddy do?
What's his philosophy, what'shis training style?
Well, if the dog's notaggressive enough, like
completely out of control, hewill provoke the dog and then he
(37:30):
grabs the leash from the petparent and he hangs the dog from
the leash, literally cuttingoff the dog's oxygen and air
supply.
The dogs are crying, wailing,flailing around, fighting for
(37:54):
oxygen, totally in fight orflight, because now they feel
like they're going to die.
They can't breathe and the doggoes into a state of learned
helplessness.
The dog goes in a state whereit shuts down emotionally.
(38:16):
Now, to the untrained,uneducated eye, you may take a
look at that and see a dogthat's aggressive and out of
control and see the dog daddygrab that leash and two minutes
later that dog is not showingoutward aggressive behavior and
you may think, wow, this guy's amagician, he's amazing.
(38:43):
Look how quick that happened.
Again, to the uneducated,untrained eye, this may fool you
.
I mean, it's fooling millionsof pet parents and it doesn't
help that there are other dogtrainers that buy into that
(39:05):
system.
Think about it.
Watch the dog daddy.
Next time when you watch himhang a dog, I want you to think
about the fact that the dog isfighting for its life to be able
to breathe and have air.
It's scared to death.
That dog merely shuts downemotionally.
(39:29):
We call that learnedhelplessness in psychology.
You can look it up, do a Googlesearch learned helplessness.
If there was ever a time, ifthere was ever a need to
regulate the dog trainingindustry, it's here today, at
(39:51):
the end of 2023, the beginningof 2024.
Now I thought we went back intime.
I thought that we wentbackwards in progress when
Caesar Milan came on the stage,because his methods are outdated
(40:14):
.
Caesar Milan's methods are notevidence-based, they're not
based in science and nowell-educated, certified,
professional dog trainer woulduse those methods.
We know better.
(40:39):
The dog training industry isfighting amongst themselves, but
then there's no requirementsfor certification.
But there are severalorganizations that offer
voluntary certification.
Now there's only onecertification that's truly,
(41:03):
truly, truly, truly independent.
You know, like when a doctor ora nurse has to go through board
certification, thatcertification process is
accredited by an outside entityand the same outside entity that
(41:29):
does the oversight andaccreditation on doctors and
nurses, their boardcertification.
That same independent oversightis oversight that is seen
(41:50):
through the certificationcouncil for professional dog
trainers.
If you do a Google search forthe certification council for
professional dog trainers,they've got a directory.
You can find certifiedprofessional dog trainers.
If you need more than a dogtrainer, if you've got a dog
with a severe behavior problem,you can look up a certified
(42:11):
behavior consultant.
But truly the only independentcertifying body is the
certification council forprofessional dog trainers.
The other certification that'sout there, the body that's doing
the certifying, takes moneyfrom the trainers and also
(42:37):
provides education and that'snot third party and it's biased.
Now I'm not saying that therearen't some good certifications
out there other than thecertification council for
professional dog trainers, butthat is definitely the best
that's out there in the world,by the way in the world.
(43:00):
But if you're a pet parent in2023, rolling into 2024, and you
get on the internet and you'retrying to find out how should I
train my dog, what kind oftrainer should I get?
What's the right or wrongphilosophy?
Man, I feel bad for you becausethere's so many different
(43:25):
answers you can get and reallyit comes down to it's going to
fall into one or two campsEither balance training, which
uses punishment and rewardscorrections and rewards, or
force free training, which doesnot use a verse of tools, does
not use corrections, does notuse punishment, and that's the
(43:48):
trend.
That's where science and theevidence-based information leads
us.
But the dog trainers can'tagree.
Every other industry somehowhas managed to agree upon
science, agree upon a certainset of truths, a certain set of
(44:10):
facts.
They've been able to puttogether standardized curricula
and education and schools cameabout and people went to those
schools like you know school forif you want to be a mechanic
(44:34):
Again, another industry that'sable to come together on the
science come together on facts,that they agree on facts, but
not in the dog training industry.
The dog training industry islike politics.
I hate to get goofy, but wherethe hell else are facts so
(44:58):
distorted Literally in the dogtraining world.
It's insanity I just cannotbelieve.
You know it's one thing to notwant to give up your shot color.
To not want to give up yourprong color, I get it.
If you're a trainer and you cando things fast and quick, you
(45:21):
get another customer.
And when you can do things fastand quick and you get another
customer, you make more money.
And there is a financial vestedinterest in using punishment
and using correction to getthings done quickly.
But what's the cost?
The animal welfare, the dogexperiencing fear, pain,
(45:44):
intimidation.
Plus we know that a lot of dogsthat are trained with aversives
.
It creates anxiety, it createsaggression.
There is fallout, not to everysingle dog, of course not, but
(46:04):
to many.
Do you want to roll thatroulette wheel?
Do you want to take that gamblewith your dog when it's not
necessary?
When it's not necessary, itmight take a little longer, it
might take a little more workbecause you don't know how to do
(46:27):
it.
Like I said, it's easy to shocka dog with a shot color.
It doesn't take any skill.
Why you would hire a trainer toshow you how to use an
electronic color is beyond me.
Why you would want to use oneis beyond me when you start to
(46:50):
look at the science and theevidence that's out there.
But we've got a lot of YouTubedog trainers.
You know a lot of theseinfluencers, these social media
influencers, dog trainers.
You know who they are.
They're the ones that havehundreds of thousands or
millions of people followingthem on YouTube, tiktok,
(47:11):
facebook, instagram.
That's not the real world.
That is not the real world.
You know, I've got a YouTubechannel for my dog training
business.
There are very, very few videosup there.
(47:35):
I have very few subscribers,very few videos.
I am not a YouTube video guy.
I don't do YouTube videos.
For the most part, I don't dodog training videos Because,
quite frankly, good dog trainingis boring.
Yeah, I'll say it again Good dogtraining is boring.
(47:56):
You know what's not boring?
But I think is incrediblyunethical, and that is for
dramatic purposes.
Being a YouTuber, being aninfluencer and taking video
purposefully causing a dog to goover threshold, purposefully
(48:17):
putting a dog in a situationwhere you set them up for
failure, where you can now filmthe dog's aggression and show
the dog out of control this iswhat dog daddy does.
He wants to show you the dog asout of control as possible.
Then he wants to show you thedog under control and he wants
(48:39):
to show you how he gets thatdone, so very quickly.
And that's all for the camera.
It's all for dramatic purposes.
And again to the untrained eye,to the uneducated eye, you may
think, wow, that's just magical.
How did he do that?
I need to know how to do that,because you so desperately need
(49:03):
to and want to get your petunder control that you'll just
about do anything.
Now here's the thing If you area force-free trainer, if you're
a force-free trainer and if youare taking on cases where there
(49:29):
is reactivity, aggression,fears and phobias, please tell
me you know what the hell you'redoing.
Please tell me that you areable to get results.
Please tell me that you areable to coach pet parents to
(49:51):
have success, because you knowwhat happens.
There's a lot of verywell-intentioned trainers on
both sides that don't know whatthe hell they're doing.
There's a lot of trainers outthere working that are positive,
reinforcement, force-freetrainers working with dogs that
(50:15):
are labeled as aggressive andreactive, that are labeled as
dogs that have fears and phobias, and you should not be working
with them because you're nothaving success.
And if you're not havingsuccess?
What are you doing?
Are you trying to figure outwhy you're not having success?
(50:38):
See, because here's the thingyour lack of success is food for
the fodder for balancedtrainers, because time and time
again, and I get the same callsBalanced trainers are getting
calls yeah, we tried thatpositive reinforcement.
It doesn't work.
(50:58):
We've tried that positivereinforcement, we tried all that
treat training it doesn't work.
Which is all BS.
It most certainly does work andthat's why I'm saying, if
(51:19):
you're a force-free trainer andyou work with dogs that are
labeled reactive, aggressive,fearful, anxious, phobic, if
you're not having great success,please stop and figure out what
you're doing.
Please stop and figure out howto have success.
(51:44):
There are too many force-freetrainers that have education,
but they're missing pieces.
They're missing pieces.
I tell you, force-free trainersare better educated for the
most part.
Force-free trainers are bettereducated for the most part than
(52:06):
balanced trainers.
But my experience and this is35 years in the industry, folks,
but my experience is balancedtrainers have more hands-on
experience than force-freetrainers.
We're not afraid to take on thecases.
The problem is, just like somany are fooled by the dog daddy
(52:34):
Augusta de la Vera, so many arefooled by learned helplessness
and shutting a dog down throughsevere punishment and thinking
somehow that is training,thinking, somehow that's
behavior modification, thinkingsomehow that's going to have
(52:55):
permanence and reliability longterm.
And it doesn't.
But I get it, because there arepeople with dogs that are
aggressive and reactive andthey've got to get these dogs
under control.
And guess what suppression does?
(53:16):
It controls the dog.
It's just temporary.
That's my problem.
It's temporary is my problem.
And the animal welfarecomponent is my problem.
And the fact that in most casesin the long run it makes things
worse, that's my problem.
(53:37):
But it's not the positivereinforcement that doesn't work.
So if somebody says, oh, Itried positive reinforcement, it
didn't work, you didn't knowhow to make it work, okay, you
know, that's like saying, yeah,I tried running water, it
doesn't work.
Really, did you actually turnthe faucet on the correct way?
(54:03):
Because it works when you do itthe right way.
And it's the same thing withforce free training.
It's the same thing with usingpositive reinforcement to deal
with these very severe problemsanxieties, fears, phobias,
aggression, reactivity.
(54:24):
If a trainer says positivereinforcement doesn't work, they
just don't know how to do it,they are not skilled enough.
I'm not passing judgment, it'sjust fact.
Science, the research doesn'tlie.
(54:46):
It most certainly does work.
But that doesn't mean thateverybody out there calling
themselves a force free trainer,that doesn't mean that
everybody out there callingthemselves a positive
reinforcement trainer thatdoesn't use aversives is really
that good at it.
Now there are lots of justincredibly talented force free
(55:10):
trainers.
There are a ton of incrediblytalented positive reinforcement
trainers, but there's also theones that are out there that
aren't so good.
So don't blame the system justbecause somebody doesn't know
(55:30):
how to work the system.
Don't blame the philosophy orthe technique just because
somebody doesn't know how toimplement the philosophy or
technique.
So I get it.
I get it.
People have these dogs that areout of control.
(55:52):
They need to get them undercontrol.
They're frustrated.
They've tried positivereinforcement.
They didn't have the mostskilled positive reinforcement
trainer.
Because I'm going to be honestwith you, since I've crossed
over from a balanced trainer toa force free trainer, I have
(56:14):
seen how there are many trainersin the positive reinforcement
camp that just don't have theskills that they need to be
dealing with dogs with severeaggression, fears and phobias.
And they're trying to.
They've got good intentions,they're trying to and in many
(56:41):
cases they don't know that theydon't know, that they don't have
the skills.
Does that make sense?
You don't know that.
You don't know, just like thereare so many balanced trainers
that because of confirmationbias, because of their own
prejudice, they don't see theuse of punishment and correction
(57:08):
as an animal welfare issue.
They don't see, because oftheir confirmation bias and
their prejudice, the fact thatthese are sentient beings.
And why would you want to useany kind of fear, pain,
intimidation, discomfort withthe fur baby that you love when
(57:29):
it's not necessary, when it'snot necessary?
But if your belief system, ifthe only way you can fathom a
dog being trained, is that youhave to use corrections, you
have to use punishment, that'syour reality.
But science says otherwise.
(57:52):
But despite this, the dogtraining industry cannot come
together and cannot be regulated.
It's a joke.
It truly is a joke when itcomes to tools.
(58:14):
All over the world, in Europe,mainly in Europe and Australia,
electronic collars and prongcollars and, in some cases,
choke collars are being bannedand outlawed all over the world,
not just by one country, not bytwo, not by three, not by four,
not by five, not by six, not byseven.
(58:36):
I don't have the studies infront of me, I don't have the
list of countries in front of me, but there's many.
2024.
Right now there is a bill Idon't know that they call it a
bill.
It's in the UK, obviously.
In the US we call it a billbefore it becomes a law.
But there's legislation goingthrough Parliament in the UK and
(58:58):
if it passes in February of2024, I believe, in UK no longer
will you be allowed to use ashock collar or a prong collar.
They will be banned, andthey're banned in most European
countries.
Will the shock collar, will theprong collar be banned and
(59:21):
outlawed in the United States?
I don't think so.
I don't see that happening inthe United States anytime soon.
What is anytime soon, boy,that's hard.
That's a hard one to gauge.
In the United States we're alot more conservative than
(59:51):
European countries and I thinkpart of that conservative
ideology is not wantinggovernment to get involved and
dictate what we can and can't do.
But it's kind of like theSecond Amendment.
Here in the United States welove our guns.
(01:00:11):
Don't you take away my guns,don't you take away my right to
have that gun.
And I'm sure, well I know withthe balance trainers they
believe it's their right.
Don't take away my tools.
And in their mind they believethat a lot of dogs are going to
be euthanized.
(01:00:32):
If you ban these tools or makeit illegal to use a prong collar
or an electronic collar or useaversives in dog training,
because a lot of balancetrainers look at it as, hey,
this is the last resort Are yougoing to euthanize the dog
before you'd use punishmentAgain?
(01:00:54):
I can't emphasize this enoughPunishment is not necessary.
If somebody is saying it'snecessary, or if somebody is
saying that positivereinforcement doesn't work, they
simply just don't have theskill set and they truly don't
know what they're doing.
They may have great intentions,but they don't know what they
(01:01:22):
don't know.
See, I was a balance trainer.
I mean, I started off back inthe mid-70s Heavy, heavy
compulsion.
There was no treat trainingback in the mid-70s not where I
came from and I spent years as abalance trainer.
I spent years using prongcollars and using shock collars
(01:01:44):
and rewards and I'm here to tellyou aversive tools are not
necessary.
You do not need a shock collar,you do not need corrections.
You do not need a prong collar.
You do not need to punish a dog.
To have a well-trained dog andto have a dog that listens to
you even in crazy distractions,you don't need to punish your
(01:02:11):
dog, especially if you've got adog that is reactive or
aggressive.
Matter of fact, punishing yourdog could be the worst thing
that you could possibly do toyour dog, but if you're a pet
parent in 2023 and you get onthe internet, it's not all that
clear.
It's not all that clear becausethe dog training industry is so
(01:02:38):
fractured right up the middleand it's all about one set of
trainers that believe it'sabsolutely necessary to use
punishment and aversives andthey don't want to lose those
tools or that right to use it.
They believe in it.
And then, on the other side,you've got the force-free
trainers that say absolutely donot use those tools.
(01:03:00):
They're unnecessary, it'sagainst animal welfare, it's an
ethical concern.
You're destroying therelationship with your dog.
And there are so many scientificresearch studies that have been
done that time and time againhave shown punishment is not
necessary and positivereinforcement can do the job.
And if somebody says again theycan't be done, it's not
(01:03:23):
positive reinforcement thatdoesn't work, it's them.
It's them.
They don't know how to make itwork.
So will the electronic collar orthe pro and collar be banned in
the US?
I say not anytime soon.
Not anytime soon.
(01:03:45):
Here's the bottom line, and Iknow that probably some of the
force-free folks are going tobeat me up for this.
Look, you are not going tolegislate morality.
First of all, there aremillions of pro and collars
already out there.
There are millions of shockcollars already out there.
(01:04:05):
You think people are going tocome house to house collecting
them If they get banned?
Of course not.
So then what?
You're going to have the shockcollar police.
You're going to have trainersturning in people, neighbors
turning in people.
Here's the thing.
This is about education.
This is about educatingtrainers and it's about
(01:04:30):
educating pet parents in thefact that aversives are not
necessary, and teaching bothtrainers and pet parents how to
get the job done using positivereinforcement.
When you do that, when you makeit about education, change will
(01:04:59):
happen.
It might not happen as fast asyou would like it to happen, and
I realize that, despite thefact that we've got lots of
different scientific studies outthere, you've got a whole group
of individuals that make everyexcuse imaginable.
(01:05:20):
Why not to trust that science?
But isn't that what we do whenwe feel threatened.
I mean, think about the Salemwitch trials, burning women at
the stake, because we thoughtthey were witches, because we
were afraid.
Because we were afraid and wedid not understand how much
(01:05:49):
tragedy has happened in worldhistory because of a lack of
education, a lack ofunderstanding.
And that doesn't mean you haveto be careful.
I mean, think about medicine.
There was a time when wethought bloodletting brought
(01:06:12):
about health.
We thought putting leeches onus brought about health, until
science said otherwise.
Until science said otherwise.
So I don't think you canlegislate morality.
(01:06:34):
I think that even if theelectronic collars, shock
collars, prawn collars arebanned and outlawed in the
United States, I think there'senough of them out there that
people are going to still usethem.
I think that If let's say that,let's say that you're able to
(01:06:56):
collect and destroy every shockcollar that's out there, every
band of people, and every prawncollar that's out there, the
person who wants to usepunishment, the person who
thinks that they have to usepunishment, the person who
thinks that positivereinforcement and force free
(01:07:17):
training doesn't work, thatindividual or individuals,
they're going to punish theirdog.
They're going to use fear, painand intimidation, no matter
what, if they don't have a shockcollar and a prawn collar,
maybe they throw something atthe dog, maybe they yell at the
dog, maybe they kick the dog.
(01:07:37):
You know, I don't know if Ihave this act completely
accurate and correct, but Iheard a story.
I don't know if it's folkloreor it's true, but electronic
collars were somewhat prettymuch kind of first designed for
(01:07:57):
hunting dogs because they neededto be off leash and the hunters
and the trainers they needed tobe able to communicate with
these dogs off leash All right.
Now, in the past, beforeelectronic collars, when the
dogs grew up and they wanted topunish the dog, they had rock
(01:08:18):
salt and they shot rock saltfrom a gun, or they had a pellet
gun or a BB gun.
They shot the dog in the buttwith the pellet or the BB.
So if somebody wants to punishtheir dog, if they want to use
punishment, if they want to usecorrection, if they believe it's
necessary, and if they don'thave the skills as a force free,
(01:08:40):
positive reinforcement trainerto be able to get results, it's
not going to matter.
They'll just find a differentway to punish their dogs.
Now I know a lot of the forcefree trainers are saying well,
will we got to do something, wegot to start somewhere.
(01:09:00):
We're providing education, butnot everybody wants to buy into
that, not everybody wants theeducation, and there's plenty of
Science and research andevidence out there and it's just
being denied and overlooked.
(01:09:23):
So well, what would you have usdo?
I don't know.
I you know they're in the forcefree training community.
The force free trainingcommunity goes beyond Lima.
If you don't know what Lima is,it's an acronym Least invasive,
(01:09:47):
minimally Aversive.
Least invasive, minimallyaversive.
And Lima allows for the use ofaversives.
It allows for negativereinforcement, allows for
(01:10:07):
positive punishment and theassociation of pet dog trainers
excuse me, the association ofprofessional dog trainers that
used to be called pet dogtrainers, the APDT, the
certification council forprofessional dog trainers, as
well as the internationalassociation of animal behavior
consultants, still leave thedoor open For their members and
(01:10:34):
the association of pet dogtrainers, and for their members
To use aversives, still leavesthe door open To use negative
reinforcement, to use positivepunishment.
In fact, the internationalassociation of animal behavior
(01:10:54):
consultants Leaves the door opento use a shock collar, even
though they know the science,even though they know what's
evidence based.
But it's only the force freecommunity that Does away with
(01:11:22):
Lima and Basically says hey,you're not going to use any
aversive, which I've agreed to,and I'm a force free trainer and
I'm okay with that because it'sunnecessary.
However, with Lima, there is ahierarchy In terms of how you
(01:11:47):
train, and first it is Aboutmaking sure that there's no
medical contributing factors.
Check the dog out medicallyNumber one, first and foremost.
Number two, train with positivereinforcement and then also
train with differentialReinforcement.
(01:12:08):
Teach alternative, incompatiblebehaviors to modify behaviors
that you don't want, which canbring about extinction, all
right.
But basically Lima says hey,when that doesn't work, all
right.
If you got to use negativereinforcement, that's your next
step.
Now.
(01:12:29):
I disagree with that.
But, but.
Can you get balance?
trainers To buy into Lima.
Because here's the thing youknow a lot of yeah, there are
some balance trainers that firsttrain with positive
reinforcement, then they proofwith correction and punishment.
(01:12:54):
But You've got A lot ofbalanced trainers that are
teaching right from the get go,teaching right from the get go
with using a versus A lot ofShock collar trainers Start the
dogs.
You need to start the dog, youneed to start the dog.
(01:13:15):
Shock collar trainers Start thedogs immediately on the
electronic collar.
They don't first teach the dogwith positive reinforcement.
Some do, some do.
I think the better way to haveto have gone Would have been to
(01:13:37):
try and well, if, if balancetrainers are looking at their
tools being banned by aparticular organization, they
are not Going to be members ofthat organization.
They are not going to join thatedge, that organization.
(01:14:00):
My contention is Get everybodyin under one big tent and Get
everybody to follow theprinciples of Lima.
To me, that would have been abetter place to start.
I would have wanted to work onrequiring regulation and
(01:14:24):
certification and then, once youhave that down the road, you
can work towards eliminatingthose tools.
However, I'm probably wrong.
I'm probably wrong from thestandpoint that there's only one
(01:14:44):
country that's ever been ableto regulate the dog training
world, and that's Germany.
Yet All kinds of countries havebeen able to outlaw and ban the
use of a verse of tools likeshock collars and prong collars,
but I know for a fact thatthose same countries where
they're outlawed don't have thesame rules.
At those same countries wherethey're outlawed, dogs are being
trained using those tools allthe time Behind closed doors.
(01:15:13):
It really comes down toeducation.
However, education is notenough.
There has to be results, and Ithink that when you make the
claim, listen.
Any behavior can be trainedwith positive reinforcement.
(01:15:33):
Any behavior can be trained outwith positive reinforcement.
You need to know what you'redoing and, by God, please don't
take on cases if you don't knowwhat you're doing, because if
you're a force free trainer, apositive reinforcement trainer,
and you are not good at gettingresults and you're not good at
(01:15:55):
motivating the pet parents to dowhat they need to do to get
results, if you're not a goodcoach and a teacher and they
don't get good results, they'renot going to blame you, they're
going to blame positivereinforcement, they're going to
blame positive reinforcement.
When positive reinforcementworks, just fine.
(01:16:19):
You got to know what you'redoing.
Not everybody does.
So we're getting ready to gointo 2024 here in the next few
days and January I don't know ifyou're aware of this, but every
January is national train yourdog Month and as we go into 2024
(01:16:44):
.
I want all of you To make acommitment that You're going to
have patience With your pets,patience and understanding and
compassion.
(01:17:06):
Look our dogs.
They don't purposely try to dothings to upset us.
They're not stubborn.
A stubborn dog Is nothing morethan a dog that's distracted and
you need to learn how tomotivate that dog and there's
lots of ways to motivate dogs.
They're not stubborn.
(01:17:28):
And those people that say, oh,my dog Not food motivated?
No, that's not.
Does your dog Not eat?
How does your dog survive andlive?
Because any dog that eats andall do or they die they're all
food motivated.
It's a basic Biologicalconstruct.
So if you tell me my dog's notfood motivated, you just don't
(01:17:54):
know how to use food in training.
There's nothing to do withWhether your dog is food
motivated or not food motivated.
A long time ago I had a sayingthat I had typed out On a sign
and I taped it to my mirror, andI'm talking about when I was a
(01:18:16):
teenager and the saying goeslike this those who say it
cannot be done Need to get outof the way.
And I'm talking about those whosay it cannot be done Need to
get out of the way of those whoare doing it.
And that's what I want to sayto all of the trainers out there
that think corrections arenecessary, that think that
(01:18:37):
punishment is necessary.
What I want to say to them isthose of those balanced trainers
that say it can't be done withpositive reinforcement alone.
Those who say it can't be done,please get out of the way of
those of us who are making ithappen.
(01:19:00):
If you're a trainer, if you're abehavior consultant, your job
Needs to be Somebody who canrepresent force free training,
somebody who can representpositive reinforcement training,
not just for dogs that need tolearn how to sit, lay down, come
(01:19:23):
when called, go to their betterplace, not just dogs who need
to learn to stop jumping andstop mouthing and stop chewing
or going to the bathroom in thehouse.
I'm talking about dogs that arevery reactive and very
aggressive.
We need to do a better job.
Those of us that are force freetrainers, those of us that are
(01:19:49):
positive reinforcement trainers.
We need to up the anti honorskills.
We cannot afford to fail andhave a balanced trainer say See,
told you Treat training doesn'twork.
Positive reinforcement doesn'twork.
(01:20:10):
Positive reinforcement doesn'twork.
We tried that positivereinforcement.
It doesn't work Really.
Whenever somebody says that tome, I go Okay, tell me exactly
what you did, exactly how youdid it.
And then, as they startexplaining the process, you find
(01:20:31):
out oh no, they didn't do itright at all.
Of course it didn't work forthem.
That's not the way it'ssupposed to be done.
Let me show you how it'ssupposed to be done, because
folks I consult with people allover the globe and the people
that I work with have dogs withsevere and I mean severe, severe
(01:20:56):
separation, anxiety, severeresource guarding, severe
aggression, reactivity, severephobias and fears and anxiety.
And I'm having great successCoaching people.
Virtually.
I'm not even there, becausereally it's all about teaching
(01:21:17):
you, the pet parent.
You're the one that needs thetraining, you're the one that
needs the coaching.
You, the pet parent, need tounderstand how all this works
and how to make it work withyour dog.
The best behavior can be doneand how all this works and how
to make it work with your dog,the best behavior consultants,
(01:21:37):
the best trainers are the onesthat can teach you the pet
parent and are good at teachingyou the pet parent.
So for 2024.
Just say no to punishment.
Just say no to the use ofaversives and stop thinking
(01:22:01):
about what you don't want yourdog to do.
Start thinking about what youdo want your dog to do and use
positive reinforcement to teachthat alternative behavior.
Have a happy 2024, everybody.
We'll see you next year.
Raised by wolves with canine DNA and his blood.
Having trained more than 24,000vets helping you and your fur
babies thrive, live in studiowith Will Bangura answering your
pet behavior and trainingquestions.
Ladies and gentlemen, pleasewelcome your host and favorite
pet behavior expert, willBangura.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Would you like to go on Wookiees?
Good day, dog lovers.
I'm Will Bangura.
Thanks for joining me for thelast episode of 2023.
This is dog training today.
Yeah, I want to take I want totake this time to thank all of
(00:54):
you, all of you that are loyalsubscribers, loyal listeners to
dog training today, that havebeen around since it was pet
talk today.
You've seen a lot throughoutthe year that we've talked about
, and I want to take this timeto talk about 2023 and kind of
(01:18):
do the year in review when itcomes to dog training and the
dog training industry, the dogtraining world, so kind of doing
a 2023 wrap up and then kind oftalking a little bit about 2024
.
Well, you know, we're just aboutdone with 2023.
(01:40):
It's December 26, so we've gota few days left in the year and
once again, we've gone anotheryear where the dog training
industry is not regulated.
The dog training industryremains unregulated, with no
formal education requirements.
(02:02):
There's also that ongoing,continuing debate between
balanced trainers and force freetrainers, and there's been a
big shift, and one of the bigshifts in the world of animal
(02:22):
training is in the area ofanimal welfare.
See, it's not just about whattools, what techniques, what
methodology, what philosophy oftraining works?
There's different things thatwork.
However, is it in the bestinterest of your dog's welfare,
(02:48):
of the animals welfare, alright?
So I want to talk a little bitabout that, also in 2023.
You know, there's still thattrend of banning aversive tools
in dog training banning prongcollars and banning shock
collars.
(03:08):
In some cases, in some areas ofthe world, even choke collars.
So I want to talk about that.
I want to talk about wherethings are at as far as banning
tools and what is my opinion onthis whole idea of banning tools
.
And, for some of you, we needto talk about what's an aversive
(03:30):
and why is that important tothe industry?
Alright, and taking that andflipping it on the other side,
let's talk about purely positivetraining.
Is there such a thing?
(03:50):
Is there such a thing as purelypositive training?
I don't know.
And also, we want to talk aboutin 2023.
We started hearing a lot.
The verbiage we started hearingwas choice and consent in dog
(04:15):
training methods.
Choice and consent in dogtraining methods, and what does
that mean?
And then I want to talk about,you know, influencers.
Alright, there are some veryinfluential figures in the dog
training world that have hugefollowing on social media A
(04:39):
couple hundred thousand, in somecases maybe even more than a
couple hundred thousandfollowers and there have been
several that have fallen out oftouch with current best
practices in training.
I also want to talk aboutcertification, the voluntary
certifications and theirsignificance in 2023 and moving
(05:02):
forward into 2024.
And there's a lot of infightingjust within the certification
associations, and what kind ofan impact does that have on the
dog training industry?
And we would be remiss if wedidn't talk about virtual
(05:29):
consultations and virtualtraining, the rise in virtual
consultations and training sinceCOVID and where things are at
today in 2023 and moving into2024.
And then I want to take alittle bit about talking about
YouTube, dog trainers andspecifically the dog daddy
(05:50):
phenomenon and what that meansfor the dog training industry
and moving forward for 2024.
But let's start.
Let's start by talking aboutthe fact that the dog training
industry is still not regulated.
(06:13):
There are no requirements forregulation.
There's no requirements foreducation in the dog training
industry.
Now, those of you that are petparents, dog owners, you know
this.
We've got a lot of dog trainers.
We've got a lot of behaviorconsultants, veterinarians,
(06:35):
behaviorists, even veterinarybehaviorists that listen to this
podcast.
We've got a lot of vet techsthat listen to this podcast and
so, where this particularpodcast might be geared more
towards those that are in theprofession, there's a lot that
you pet parents can get out ofthis as well.
(06:55):
For example, when you're lookingfor somebody to help you to
train your pet.
Did you know that the dogtraining industry is not
regulated?
Did you know that there are norequirements to be a dog trainer
, that anybody can callthemselves a dog trainer?
(07:15):
Your next door neighbor mayhave never owned a dog.
Your next door neighbor mayhave never put their hands on a
dog, yet they could callthemselves a dog trainer, sam, a
professional dog trainer, andstart taking clients and
training dogs tomorrow.
There is no governmentoversight.
There's no regulation of thedog training industry.
(07:38):
Now Think about how importantour pets are, think about how
important our dogs are and howwe view our dogs as family, and
look at what we do for our petstoday.
And when you think of that, andwhen you think about the dog
(08:00):
training industry beingunregulated, and you think about
how many pet parents arelooking for a professional to
help them train their dog or todeal with some very, perhaps
specific behavior problems likefears, phobias, anxiety,
reactivity, aggression, phobiasand if you're a pet parent boy,
(08:26):
you could be really, reallyconfused.
You know, you get on theinternet and there's all these
differing opinions.
You get on all of thesedifferent websites for these
so-called professional dogtrainers and you've got all
these varying opinions.
What's right You've got, on onehand, you've got lots of
(08:48):
trainers advocating for the useof purely positive, using
positive reinforcement, notusing corrections, not using
aversives.
Now listen, when I use the wordcorrection, I'm using that
synonymous with punishment, andthat's it.
And let's define punishmentAnything I don't care anything
(09:10):
that causes even the slightestbit of discomfort, fear, pain,
intimidation.
That's a correction, that'spunishment, that's how I'm using
it.
Okay, in 2023, there is thetrend to follow evidence-based
(09:33):
and science-based practices andtraining.
The problem is not everybody'sin agreement.
You've got a dog trainingindustry that is severely
fractured and primarily, it'sfractured into two categories.
(09:55):
One, you've got trainers thatbelieve that it's necessary to
use corrections and again, whenI say correction, I'm talking
about punishment, anything Idon't care what it is Anything
that causes the slightest bit ofdiscomfort or fear, pain or
intimidation.
Science, evidence-basedpractices, science-based
(10:21):
practices and we're not talkingjust one study here.
We're talking multiplepeer-reviewed studies that show
that the most effective and themost efficient way to train a
dog is with positivereinforcement.
And the studies also show thatit's unnecessary here's the word
(10:44):
unnecessary.
It's unnecessary to usepunishment.
It's unnecessary to useaversives.
It's unnecessary to usecorrections and training.
You don't need to do that.
So what does that mean?
It's unnecessary to believethat you have to use any kind of
(11:05):
tool or method of training.
That's going to cause discomfortto your dog.
First of all, it's going toruin your relationship with your
dog if you're the one trainingit.
If you're the one inflictingdiscomfort, what do you suppose
that does to your relationshipwith your dog?
And when your dogs make amistake, when they engage in a
(11:29):
behavior you don't want, chancesare your dog has no clue that
it's not okay.
Your dog's just probably beinga dog and not a, not being
dominant, not being stubborn,not a dog.
(11:51):
And dogs can be unruly, and mydefinition of unruly is you
didn't teach you what the ruleswere.
You know, one of the mostnatural things for a dog to do
is jump up on somebody when theygreet them.
That doesn't mean the dog'sdominant, doesn't mean that the
dog is trying to be.
(12:13):
Alpha Means the dog's jumpinginterested in seeing somebody.
You know when, when the dog wasa puppy, everybody picked it up
, brought it to its chest.
That simulates jumping up.
We teach that inadvertently todogs.
Do we teach an alternativebehavior?
(12:34):
Do we teach a dog, hey, this iswhat I want you to do when a
guest comes over.
I want you to sit politely orlay down or go to your bed or go
to your place and then, when Irelease you, I want you to be
calm and I don't want you to bejumping on anybody.
Did we take the time to teachthe dog what we wanted to do or
(12:55):
do we just get frustrated withnormal behaviors that dogs do
and, because we don't like itand we're frustrated, we start
using punishment, corrections,techniques, tools or a
philosophy of training.
That means, hey, I'm going tocause some discomfort, and
discomfort means stress, anxiety.
(13:17):
So in 2023, there is this hugefocus on animal welfare Can
punishment work?
Can corrections work?
Yes, a, they're not necessary.
So let me ask you this If youhave a choice, if I, if I sit
(13:39):
here and I tell you, hey, youcan train in any behavior and,
by the way, you can train outany behavior just using positive
reinforcement.
You don't need to use a prawncollar.
You don't need to use a shockcollar.
You don't need to yell at yourdog.
No, you don't need to roll up atowel and bunk your dog on the
(14:03):
head.
You don't need to use a canwith some rocks or pennies in it
to throw at the dog, to startlethe dog.
You don't need to use a watersprayer or a spray bottle.
You don't need any of those.
You don't need any tool, an airhorn, anything that's going to
cause discomfort, fear, pain,intimidation.
(14:24):
You don't need any of that, andscience is very clear about
that.
The problem is, as I mentioned,it's 2023.
The dog training industry stillstill is not regulated.
Do you know that the dogtraining industries only
regulated in Germany?
Nowhere else in the world isthe dog training industry
(14:48):
regulated.
Now there's a few cities thathave attempted to do some a
little bit of regulation.
Now let me, just let me bringthis home for you Ladies do you
see a beautician, somebody thatstyles your hair?
Well, chances are if you do,they had to go to school.
(15:11):
They had to go to formalschooling, beauty school, hair
styling school, and it doesn'tmatter where you go to school in
the United States to learn howto do hair.
You're pretty much going tohave the same standardized
curriculum, no matter where yougo to school, throughout the
(15:32):
country.
And after you're done with yourschooling, after you're done
with your trade school, nowyou've got to take a
certification exam.
You have to prove that theeducation that you received, you
(15:53):
got it, you understand it andyou know how to apply that and
that's what standards are andthat's what certification is.
And when you pass certificationnow you can get a license to be
a hairdresser, a beautician,and that's the way it is for
(16:15):
almost every single profession.
We know it's that way fordoctors.
We know it's that way fornurses, right, if you want to be
a doctor, if you want to go tomedical school, I don't care
where you go to medical schoolin this country the curriculum
is going to be almost identical,no matter where you go.
Everybody agrees on what is thestandardized curriculum for
(16:36):
medicine and we come up withthat and we agree upon that,
based on science based andevidence based standards.
Okay, like I said, doctors,nurses, veterinarians, vet techs
, other other trades, like aplumber, right, yeah, there's
(17:03):
school, there are trade schools.
If you want to be a plumber.
I don't care where you go toschool.
Go to plumber school in Arizona.
You go to plumber school inConnecticut.
You go to school to become aplumber in Florida.
You go to school to become aplumber in South Dakota, new
York, california, atlanta.
The education is going to bestandardized.
(17:25):
We agree on the science.
We agree on what science basedand evidence based information
is out there as it pertains tobeing a plumber.
If you want to work on and be aelectrician, same thing,
(17:49):
standardized education.
I don't care where you go toschool.
If you want to be anelectrician, what you're going
to learn in vocational school tobecome electrician is going to
be standardized, no matter whereyou go to school.
And if you do a good job inschool and if you study, you're
(18:10):
going to do well.
And in those professions justlike with doctors and nurses and
veterinarians and vet techsagain, after education,
certification, prove you knowyour stuff.
And when you can passcertification, now you get
(18:32):
licensed licensed as anelectrician or licensed as an
air conditioning and heatingperson, licensed as a
cosmetologist, licensed as adoctor, licensed as a
veterinarian, licensed as a vettech, licensed as a barber,
(18:54):
licensed as a nail tech.
The dog training industry is oneof the few industries that just
cannot get their shit togetherand they can't get organized.
(19:15):
And they cannot agree on whatto teach, and I'm not just, I'm
not talking about that.
They can't agree on what toteach the pet parents and their
and their dogs.
They can't agree on curriculum,and the reason they can't agree
(19:36):
on curriculum for a college,university or a vocational
school to learn how to become adog trainer, because there's a
large group of trainers outthere that believe corrections
are necessary.
(19:56):
There's a large group oftrainers out there that believe
that you have to use punishmentand training.
They believe that you have touse corrections.
They believe that positivereinforcement is limited and the
argument that they'll use ishey, listen, it's not a matter
(20:19):
of.
If it's a matter of when youand your dog get into a
distracting environment orsituation where that distraction
has more value to your dog,then whatever the positive
reinforcer is that you have andif that's the case, you're not
going to be able to control yourdog.
And that's the argument theymake why you need corrections,
(20:44):
when the truth is the fact ofthe matter is you don't need the
correction, you don't have tohave the punishment and the
correction.
And, quite frankly, if youcan't manage and control your
dog with distractions, withpositive reinforcement, you are
(21:05):
just training too fast.
Yeah, your dog's not ready forit.
You've not done enough trainingand conditioning.
Work at lower leveldistractions to teach your dog
how to stay engaged and how topay attention and stay focused.
At lower level distractionsYou're working faster than the
dog's pace.
(21:26):
It's easy.
It's easy to use pressure.
It's easy to use punishment,it's easy to use corrections.
It doesn't take much skill.
I mean, how much skill?
Think about it.
How much skill does it take topush a button on a remote
(21:47):
control that shocks a dog?
How much skill does it take toinflict pain?
How much skill does it take topop a leash and give a leash
correction with a prong collarand cause pain?
(22:08):
Instead of always thinkingabout what you don't want your
dog to do, instead of alwaysthinking that, oh, I don't want
my dog to do that, so let'spunish or correct the dog, let's
make it uncomfortable so thedog won't do it again, instead
of your mindset going alongthose lines, how about you think
(22:29):
about what you want your dog todo?
Is there a behavior that you canteach your dog that if your
dog's committed to that behavior, that behavior would be
incompatible with the behavioryou don't want.
Let me go back to jumping.
If I successfully teach my dogthat when strangers come over or
(22:51):
anybody comes through the doorthat the dog sits or lies down,
and if the dog's committed tothat behavior, the dog can't
jump.
The dog can't be sitting andjumping at the same time.
The dog can't be lying down andjumping at the same time.
It'd have to give up onebehavior for the other.
So you have two choices you canbe the type of trainer or you
(23:14):
can be the type of pet parentthat when your dog does
something wrong and you don'tlike, you could punish the dog.
You could cause fear, pain andintimidation, discomfort.
Or you could be the type oftrainer or the type of pet
parent where, rather than takethe easy way out, the lazy way
out, you can actually developsome really good skills in
(23:43):
animal training and how tomodify behavior.
The classic example of wherethings go wrong are dogs with
aggression issues.
99% of trainers out there aregoing to suppress aggression,
they're going to correct that,punish that and they'll even use
(24:06):
crazy, outdated terms likealpha or dominance, when we know
that's all been disproved, notwith domesticated dogs.
First of all, do you reallythink that the species, the
canine species, is out todominate the human world?
(24:27):
No, they're not trying todominate us.
They're unruly.
Like I said earlier, withoutrules we didn't teach them what
we want.
Now I realize that in Americawe don't have much patience.
I realize in America that wewant things and we want it now.
(24:49):
And there's that allure that,hey, if you've got a dog that's
jumping, if you've got a dogthat's chewing, if you've got a
dog that's running away, ifyou've got a dog that's going to
the bathroom in the house,punish the dog, put a shock
collar on, put a prong collar on, give it a correction.
(25:12):
The one thing you're not doingin any of that is teaching the
dog what you want it to do.
What's the dog's alternative?
You see, when you understandthat all behavior is functional,
in applied behavior analysis,in the science of applied
(25:35):
behavior analysis, we do what'scalled a functional assessment
and that's where we take a lookat the behavior and we identify
what is the purpose of thatbehavior, what is the function
of that behavior, what is theconsequence that occurs?
That is, reinforcing thebehavior.
(25:58):
All behaviors are functional.
So let me give you an example.
A dog is walking down thestreet.
You're walking your dog downthe street and here you turn a
corner and there's a strangerabout 50 feet down on the
sidewalk and your dog's afraidof strangers.
(26:19):
And your dog starts barking andgrowling and lunging.
Its hair stands up on its back,showing its teeth, its pupils
are dilated and the classicexample is correct that behavior
.
Give a lection collarcorrection.
Shock the dog with a shockcollar because you don't like
(26:43):
how your dog's behaving.
The problem is that behavior isnot the issue, that's how it
manifests.
That's the outward behavior yousee.
But what you should be thinkingabout is what's motivating that
behavior?
Why does the dog want to engagein that behavior?
(27:05):
Where is the function?
Where is the purpose?
Well, think about it.
If I'm a dog and I'm afraid ofstrangers and if every time I
bark and I growl and I lunge andI show my teeth, those scary
strangers go whoa and they backaway, or my pet parent takes me
(27:28):
by the leash and pulls me out ofthere, gets me out of that
situation, in both situationsthat behavior of barking,
lunging, showing your teeth,hair raised on its back, got
distance and space from thescary stranger.
(27:50):
That behavior is functional tocreate distance and space.
And that is what the dog wantsIf it's afraid distance and
space.
And that behavior getsreinforced when it works when it
does serve a function.
(28:11):
You don't think of it in thoseterms because it's just behavior
, it just happens.
But if we map that out, if wediagram that out, we've got
what's called the antecedent orthe trigger in this case a
stranger and that triggers thedog's behavior.
In this case we said it'sbarking, lunging, growling,
(28:33):
showing its teeth, hair raisedon its back.
Those are all outward, visiblesigns of behavior.
And those signs, those outwardbehaviors, are rooted in a
conditioned emotional responsethat the dog has developed with
(28:56):
strangers.
The dog associates strangerswith a threat and the dog begins
to experience stress and fearand anxiety.
That's what is the underlyingemotional state that motivates
the dog's behavior.
If the dog, if those emotionswere fixed, if the dog did not
(29:22):
have a perception that strangersare scary, if you could change
the emotions of the dog, wherethe dog doesn't have fear,
anxiety or stress associatedwith strangers, the behavior
will go away and you're going tomodify that behavior with
(29:42):
permanence and reliability,because you're actually dealing
with the underlying root cause.
Now, if you're just suppressingoutward behavior by using
punishment and corrections andyou're never addressing that
underlying emotional state, ifyou're not modifying how that
dog perceives the strange people.
(30:06):
If you're not changing thedog's underlying emotional state
as it relates to strangers,things don't get better and
punishment is just smoke andmirrors.
You might temporarily stop thatoutward behavior and fool
yourself into thinking thatthere's been change, when there
(30:29):
hasn't been change, it's justbeen suppression.
And as you suppress thatbehavior it adds more anxiety,
more stress, more fear and inthe long run it makes things
worse.
But, if you don't understand thescience, if you don't
(30:54):
understand what science istelling us, you could be making
poor choices.
You could be misunderstandingwhat's happening.
You know, I can understandwhere people would think that
punishment corrections actuallychanges behavior when it comes
to aggression.
You would think so.
(31:16):
Maybe common sense would makeyou think that, but common sense
isn't always correct.
What does the science say?
What is the science and theresearch say?
Is there evidence to show anyvalidity behind that?
(31:41):
When we deny science, when werefuse to look at the facts and
we start creating our ownalternate reality, our own
alternate facts, that's when wedescend into chaos.
(32:01):
I mean, if we're both lookingat a strawberry and I say, hey,
that's strawberries red, and youjust keep insisting it's blue,
how are we supposed to get along, how are we supposed to move
forward if we can't even agreeon basic tenants?
(32:21):
And when it comes to traininganimals, one of the basic
tenants today in science is thatyou don't need to use aversives
, that it's a choice.
And based on what we know aboutour pets, based on the fact
(32:48):
that they're sentient beings,based on the fact that they do
have feelings and thoughts andthey can experience feelings and
thoughts, should we be trainingthe dog with a shock collar Now
(33:09):
, when we didn't know better,when we didn't have the research
, when we didn't have thescience, that's one thing, but
it's a whole different situationwhen there's a multitude of
studies and all of the biganimal welfare organizations
(33:32):
have all spoken out the AmericanSociety of Veterinary Behavior,
the American Humane Society,the ASPCA, on and on and on.
I could read many, many more.
I could tell you many, manymore.
They're all in agreement.
You don't need to usepunishment that it's outdated.
Those are old, archaic,outdated ways of training.
(33:54):
Now, like I said, the dogtraining industry is not
regulated and the dog trainingindustry is fractured.
And the dog training industryis fractured along the lines.
You've got trainers that agreewith the science and say, hey,
you don't need to use punishment, you don't need to use
(34:18):
aversives, you shouldn't use aprawn collar, you shouldn't use
a choke collar, you shouldn'tuse a shock collar that you can
train in any behavior withpositive reinforcement.
You can modify any behaviorwith positive reinforcement.
And it's about ethics andanimal welfare and how you view
(34:40):
your dog.
I mean most people view theirdogs as family, any other family
members that you want to modifytheir behaviors with a prawn
collar or a shock collar Today,the insanity of 2023, here we
(35:08):
are trying to make progress withscience-based and
evidence-based training and herecomes along the dog daddy.
Augusto de la Vera comes ontothe scene with one, two, three
million followers in socialmedia and this guy has no formal
(35:34):
education, has nocertifications and literally his
method of training, and hefocuses on aggressive dogs.
And, by the way, all aggression, 99.9999% of all aggression, is
(35:58):
based in fear.
What animal, what animal Dog,cat, human, what animal goes
into fight or flight unless theyperceive a threat?
Now, that doesn't mean therehas to be a real threat, but
when an animal goes into fightor flight, so when they're
(36:19):
aggressive, when they go intofight or flight, is because they
perceive something asthreatening.
In order to perceive somethingas threatening, your underlying
emotional state is anxiety, fearand stress.
All aggression is based in fear.
It's the fear that needs tochange and you change that fear
(36:44):
and the aggressive behavior goesaway.
You punish the outwardaggressive behavior and you
merely temporarily suppress thatbehavior, because the dog is
now too afraid, too intimidated,doesn't want to experience that
discomfort again and it knowshey, if I do that, you're going
to shock me, or if I do thatagain, you're going to use that
(37:07):
leash and collar, but the dog'sstill afraid and you did nothing
to change it.
So what does the dog daddy do?
What's his philosophy, what'shis training style?
Well, if the dog's notaggressive enough, like
completely out of control, hewill provoke the dog and then he
(37:30):
grabs the leash from the petparent and he hangs the dog from
the leash, literally cuttingoff the dog's oxygen and air
supply.
The dogs are crying, wailing,flailing around, fighting for
(37:54):
oxygen, totally in fight orflight, because now they feel
like they're going to die.
They can't breathe and the doggoes into a state of learned
helplessness.
The dog goes in a state whereit shuts down emotionally.
(38:16):
Now, to the untrained,uneducated eye, you may take a
look at that and see a dogthat's aggressive and out of
control and see the dog daddygrab that leash and two minutes
later that dog is not showingoutward aggressive behavior and
you may think, wow, this guy's amagician, he's amazing.
(38:43):
Look how quick that happened.
Again, to the uneducated,untrained eye, this may fool you
.
I mean, it's fooling millionsof pet parents and it doesn't
help that there are other dogtrainers that buy into that
(39:05):
system.
Think about it.
Watch the dog daddy.
Next time when you watch himhang a dog, I want you to think
about the fact that the dog isfighting for its life to be able
to breathe and have air.
It's scared to death.
That dog merely shuts downemotionally.
(39:29):
We call that learnedhelplessness in psychology.
You can look it up, do a Googlesearch learned helplessness.
If there was ever a time, ifthere was ever a need to
regulate the dog trainingindustry, it's here today, at
(39:51):
the end of 2023, the beginningof 2024.
Now I thought we went back intime.
I thought that we wentbackwards in progress when
Caesar Milan came on the stage,because his methods are outdated
(40:14):
.
Caesar Milan's methods are notevidence-based, they're not
based in science and nowell-educated, certified,
professional dog trainer woulduse those methods.
We know better.
(40:39):
The dog training industry isfighting amongst themselves, but
then there's no requirementsfor certification.
But there are severalorganizations that offer
voluntary certification.
Now there's only onecertification that's truly,
(41:03):
truly, truly, truly independent.
You know, like when a doctor ora nurse has to go through board
certification, thatcertification process is
accredited by an outside entityand the same outside entity that
(41:29):
does the oversight andaccreditation on doctors and
nurses, their boardcertification.
That same independent oversightis oversight that is seen
(41:50):
through the certificationcouncil for professional dog
trainers.
If you do a Google search forthe certification council for
professional dog trainers,they've got a directory.
You can find certifiedprofessional dog trainers.
If you need more than a dogtrainer, if you've got a dog
with a severe behavior problem,you can look up a certified
(42:11):
behavior consultant.
But truly the only independentcertifying body is the
certification council forprofessional dog trainers.
The other certification that'sout there, the body that's doing
the certifying, takes moneyfrom the trainers and also
(42:37):
provides education and that'snot third party and it's biased.
Now I'm not saying that therearen't some good certifications
out there other than thecertification council for
professional dog trainers, butthat is definitely the best
that's out there in the world,by the way in the world.
(43:00):
But if you're a pet parent in2023, rolling into 2024, and you
get on the internet and you'retrying to find out how should I
train my dog, what kind oftrainer should I get?
What's the right or wrongphilosophy?
Man, I feel bad for you becausethere's so many different
(43:25):
answers you can get and reallyit comes down to it's going to
fall into one or two campsEither balance training, which
uses punishment and rewardscorrections and rewards, or
force free training, which doesnot use a verse of tools, does
not use corrections, does notuse punishment, and that's the
(43:48):
trend.
That's where science and theevidence-based information leads
us.
But the dog trainers can'tagree.
Every other industry somehowhas managed to agree upon
science, agree upon a certainset of truths, a certain set of
(44:10):
facts.
They've been able to puttogether standardized curricula
and education and schools cameabout and people went to those
schools like you know school forif you want to be a mechanic
(44:34):
Again, another industry that'sable to come together on the
science come together on facts,that they agree on facts, but
not in the dog training industry.
The dog training industry islike politics.
I hate to get goofy, but wherethe hell else are facts so
(44:58):
distorted Literally in the dogtraining world.
It's insanity I just cannotbelieve.
You know it's one thing to notwant to give up your shot color.
To not want to give up yourprong color, I get it.
If you're a trainer and you cando things fast and quick, you
(45:21):
get another customer.
And when you can do things fastand quick and you get another
customer, you make more money.
And there is a financial vestedinterest in using punishment
and using correction to getthings done quickly.
But what's the cost?
The animal welfare, the dogexperiencing fear, pain,
(45:44):
intimidation.
Plus we know that a lot of dogsthat are trained with aversives
.
It creates anxiety, it createsaggression.
There is fallout, not to everysingle dog, of course not, but
(46:04):
to many.
Do you want to roll thatroulette wheel?
Do you want to take that gamblewith your dog when it's not
necessary?
When it's not necessary, itmight take a little longer, it
might take a little more workbecause you don't know how to do
(46:27):
it.
Like I said, it's easy to shocka dog with a shot color.
It doesn't take any skill.
Why you would hire a trainer toshow you how to use an
electronic color is beyond me.
Why you would want to use oneis beyond me when you start to
(46:50):
look at the science and theevidence that's out there.
But we've got a lot of YouTubedog trainers.
You know a lot of theseinfluencers, these social media
influencers, dog trainers.
You know who they are.
They're the ones that havehundreds of thousands or
millions of people followingthem on YouTube, tiktok,
(47:11):
facebook, instagram.
That's not the real world.
That is not the real world.
You know, I've got a YouTubechannel for my dog training
business.
There are very, very few videosup there.
(47:35):
I have very few subscribers,very few videos.
I am not a YouTube video guy.
I don't do YouTube videos.
For the most part, I don't dodog training videos Because,
quite frankly, good dog trainingis boring.
Yeah, I'll say it again Good dogtraining is boring.
(47:56):
You know what's not boring?
But I think is incrediblyunethical, and that is for
dramatic purposes.
Being a YouTuber, being aninfluencer and taking video
purposefully causing a dog to goover threshold, purposefully
(48:17):
putting a dog in a situationwhere you set them up for
failure, where you can now filmthe dog's aggression and show
the dog out of control this iswhat dog daddy does.
He wants to show you the dog asout of control as possible.
Then he wants to show you thedog under control and he wants
(48:39):
to show you how he gets thatdone, so very quickly.
And that's all for the camera.
It's all for dramatic purposes.
And again to the untrained eye,to the uneducated eye, you may
think, wow, that's just magical.
How did he do that?
I need to know how to do that,because you so desperately need
(49:03):
to and want to get your petunder control that you'll just
about do anything.
Now here's the thing If you area force-free trainer, if you're
a force-free trainer and if youare taking on cases where there
(49:29):
is reactivity, aggression,fears and phobias, please tell
me you know what the hell you'redoing.
Please tell me that you areable to get results.
Please tell me that you areable to coach pet parents to
(49:51):
have success, because you knowwhat happens.
There's a lot of verywell-intentioned trainers on
both sides that don't know whatthe hell they're doing.
There's a lot of trainers outthere working that are positive,
reinforcement, force-freetrainers working with dogs that
(50:15):
are labeled as aggressive andreactive, that are labeled as
dogs that have fears and phobias, and you should not be working
with them because you're nothaving success.
And if you're not havingsuccess?
What are you doing?
Are you trying to figure outwhy you're not having success?
(50:38):
See, because here's the thingyour lack of success is food for
the fodder for balancedtrainers, because time and time
again, and I get the same callsBalanced trainers are getting
calls yeah, we tried thatpositive reinforcement.
It doesn't work.
(50:58):
We've tried that positivereinforcement, we tried all that
treat training it doesn't work.
Which is all BS.
It most certainly does work andthat's why I'm saying, if
(51:19):
you're a force-free trainer andyou work with dogs that are
labeled reactive, aggressive,fearful, anxious, phobic, if
you're not having great success,please stop and figure out what
you're doing.
Please stop and figure out howto have success.
(51:44):
There are too many force-freetrainers that have education,
but they're missing pieces.
They're missing pieces.
I tell you, force-free trainersare better educated for the
most part.
Force-free trainers are bettereducated for the most part than
(52:06):
balanced trainers.
But my experience and this is35 years in the industry, folks,
but my experience is balancedtrainers have more hands-on
experience than force-freetrainers.
We're not afraid to take on thecases.
The problem is, just like somany are fooled by the dog daddy
(52:34):
Augusta de la Vera, so many arefooled by learned helplessness
and shutting a dog down throughsevere punishment and thinking
somehow that is training,thinking, somehow that's
behavior modification, thinkingsomehow that's going to have
(52:55):
permanence and reliability longterm.
And it doesn't.
But I get it, because there arepeople with dogs that are
aggressive and reactive andthey've got to get these dogs
under control.
And guess what suppression does?
(53:16):
It controls the dog.
It's just temporary.
That's my problem.
It's temporary is my problem.
And the animal welfarecomponent is my problem.
And the fact that in most casesin the long run it makes things
worse, that's my problem.
(53:37):
But it's not the positivereinforcement that doesn't work.
So if somebody says, oh, Itried positive reinforcement, it
didn't work, you didn't knowhow to make it work, okay, you
know, that's like saying, yeah,I tried running water, it
doesn't work.
Really, did you actually turnthe faucet on the correct way?
(54:03):
Because it works when you do itthe right way.
And it's the same thing withforce free training.
It's the same thing with usingpositive reinforcement to deal
with these very severe problemsanxieties, fears, phobias,
aggression, reactivity.
(54:24):
If a trainer says positivereinforcement doesn't work, they
just don't know how to do it,they are not skilled enough.
I'm not passing judgment, it'sjust fact.
Science, the research doesn'tlie.
(54:46):
It most certainly does work.
But that doesn't mean thateverybody out there calling
themselves a force free trainer,that doesn't mean that
everybody out there callingthemselves a positive
reinforcement trainer thatdoesn't use aversives is really
that good at it.
Now there are lots of justincredibly talented force free
(55:10):
trainers.
There are a ton of incrediblytalented positive reinforcement
trainers, but there's also theones that are out there that
aren't so good.
So don't blame the system justbecause somebody doesn't know
(55:30):
how to work the system.
Don't blame the philosophy orthe technique just because
somebody doesn't know how toimplement the philosophy or
technique.
So I get it.
I get it.
People have these dogs that areout of control.
(55:52):
They need to get them undercontrol.
They're frustrated.
They've tried positivereinforcement.
They didn't have the mostskilled positive reinforcement
trainer.
Because I'm going to be honestwith you, since I've crossed
over from a balanced trainer toa force free trainer, I have
(56:14):
seen how there are many trainersin the positive reinforcement
camp that just don't have theskills that they need to be
dealing with dogs with severeaggression, fears and phobias.
And they're trying to.
They've got good intentions,they're trying to and in many
(56:41):
cases they don't know that theydon't know, that they don't have
the skills.
Does that make sense?
You don't know that.
You don't know, just like thereare so many balanced trainers
that because of confirmationbias, because of their own
prejudice, they don't see theuse of punishment and correction
(57:08):
as an animal welfare issue.
They don't see, because oftheir confirmation bias and
their prejudice, the fact thatthese are sentient beings.
And why would you want to useany kind of fear, pain,
intimidation, discomfort withthe fur baby that you love when
(57:29):
it's not necessary, when it'snot necessary?
But if your belief system, ifthe only way you can fathom a
dog being trained, is that youhave to use corrections, you
have to use punishment, that'syour reality.
But science says otherwise.
(57:52):
But despite this, the dogtraining industry cannot come
together and cannot be regulated.
It's a joke.
It truly is a joke when itcomes to tools.
(58:14):
All over the world, in Europe,mainly in Europe and Australia,
electronic collars and prongcollars and, in some cases,
choke collars are being bannedand outlawed all over the world,
not just by one country, not bytwo, not by three, not by four,
not by five, not by six, not byseven.
(58:36):
I don't have the studies infront of me, I don't have the
list of countries in front of me, but there's many.
2024.
Right now there is a bill Idon't know that they call it a
bill.
It's in the UK, obviously.
In the US we call it a billbefore it becomes a law.
But there's legislation goingthrough Parliament in the UK and
(58:58):
if it passes in February of2024, I believe, in UK no longer
will you be allowed to use ashock collar or a prong collar.
They will be banned, andthey're banned in most European
countries.
Will the shock collar, will theprong collar be banned and
(59:21):
outlawed in the United States?
I don't think so.
I don't see that happening inthe United States anytime soon.
What is anytime soon, boy,that's hard.
That's a hard one to gauge.
In the United States we're alot more conservative than
(59:51):
European countries and I thinkpart of that conservative
ideology is not wantinggovernment to get involved and
dictate what we can and can't do.
But it's kind of like theSecond Amendment.
Here in the United States welove our guns.
(01:00:11):
Don't you take away my guns,don't you take away my right to
have that gun.
And I'm sure, well I know withthe balance trainers they
believe it's their right.
Don't take away my tools.
And in their mind they believethat a lot of dogs are going to
be euthanized.
(01:00:32):
If you ban these tools or makeit illegal to use a prong collar
or an electronic collar or useaversives in dog training,
because a lot of balancetrainers look at it as, hey,
this is the last resort Are yougoing to euthanize the dog
before you'd use punishmentAgain?
(01:00:54):
I can't emphasize this enoughPunishment is not necessary.
If somebody is saying it'snecessary, or if somebody is
saying that positivereinforcement doesn't work, they
simply just don't have theskill set and they truly don't
know what they're doing.
They may have great intentions,but they don't know what they
(01:01:22):
don't know.
See, I was a balance trainer.
I mean, I started off back inthe mid-70s Heavy, heavy
compulsion.
There was no treat trainingback in the mid-70s not where I
came from and I spent years as abalance trainer.
I spent years using prongcollars and using shock collars
(01:01:44):
and rewards and I'm here to tellyou aversive tools are not
necessary.
You do not need a shock collar,you do not need corrections.
You do not need a prong collar.
You do not need to punish a dog.
To have a well-trained dog andto have a dog that listens to
you even in crazy distractions,you don't need to punish your
(01:02:11):
dog, especially if you've got adog that is reactive or
aggressive.
Matter of fact, punishing yourdog could be the worst thing
that you could possibly do toyour dog, but if you're a pet
parent in 2023 and you get onthe internet, it's not all that
clear.
It's not all that clear becausethe dog training industry is so
(01:02:38):
fractured right up the middleand it's all about one set of
trainers that believe it'sabsolutely necessary to use
punishment and aversives andthey don't want to lose those
tools or that right to use it.
They believe in it.
And then, on the other side,you've got the force-free
trainers that say absolutely donot use those tools.
(01:03:00):
They're unnecessary, it'sagainst animal welfare, it's an
ethical concern.
You're destroying therelationship with your dog.
And there are so many scientificresearch studies that have been
done that time and time againhave shown punishment is not
necessary and positivereinforcement can do the job.
And if somebody says again theycan't be done, it's not
(01:03:23):
positive reinforcement thatdoesn't work, it's them.
It's them.
They don't know how to make itwork.
So will the electronic collar orthe pro and collar be banned in
the US?
I say not anytime soon.
Not anytime soon.
(01:03:45):
Here's the bottom line, and Iknow that probably some of the
force-free folks are going tobeat me up for this.
Look, you are not going tolegislate morality.
First of all, there aremillions of pro and collars
already out there.
There are millions of shockcollars already out there.
(01:04:05):
You think people are going tocome house to house collecting
them If they get banned?
Of course not.
So then what?
You're going to have the shockcollar police.
You're going to have trainersturning in people, neighbors
turning in people.
Here's the thing.
This is about education.
This is about educatingtrainers and it's about
(01:04:30):
educating pet parents in thefact that aversives are not
necessary, and teaching bothtrainers and pet parents how to
get the job done using positivereinforcement.
When you do that, when you makeit about education, change will
(01:04:59):
happen.
It might not happen as fast asyou would like it to happen, and
I realize that, despite thefact that we've got lots of
different scientific studies outthere, you've got a whole group
of individuals that make everyexcuse imaginable.
(01:05:20):
Why not to trust that science?
But isn't that what we do whenwe feel threatened.
I mean, think about the Salemwitch trials, burning women at
the stake, because we thoughtthey were witches, because we
were afraid.
Because we were afraid and wedid not understand how much
(01:05:49):
tragedy has happened in worldhistory because of a lack of
education, a lack ofunderstanding.
And that doesn't mean you haveto be careful.
I mean, think about medicine.
There was a time when wethought bloodletting brought
(01:06:12):
about health.
We thought putting leeches onus brought about health, until
science said otherwise.
Until science said otherwise.
So I don't think you canlegislate morality.
(01:06:34):
I think that even if theelectronic collars, shock
collars, prawn collars arebanned and outlawed in the
United States, I think there'senough of them out there that
people are going to still usethem.
I think that If let's say that,let's say that you're able to
(01:06:56):
collect and destroy every shockcollar that's out there, every
band of people, and every prawncollar that's out there, the
person who wants to usepunishment, the person who
thinks that they have to usepunishment, the person who
thinks that positivereinforcement and force free
(01:07:17):
training doesn't work, thatindividual or individuals,
they're going to punish theirdog.
They're going to use fear, painand intimidation, no matter
what, if they don't have a shockcollar and a prawn collar,
maybe they throw something atthe dog, maybe they yell at the
dog, maybe they kick the dog.
(01:07:37):
You know, I don't know if Ihave this act completely
accurate and correct, but Iheard a story.
I don't know if it's folkloreor it's true, but electronic
collars were somewhat prettymuch kind of first designed for
(01:07:57):
hunting dogs because they neededto be off leash and the hunters
and the trainers they needed tobe able to communicate with
these dogs off leash All right.
Now, in the past, beforeelectronic collars, when the
dogs grew up and they wanted topunish the dog, they had rock
(01:08:18):
salt and they shot rock saltfrom a gun, or they had a pellet
gun or a BB gun.
They shot the dog in the buttwith the pellet or the BB.
So if somebody wants to punishtheir dog, if they want to use
punishment, if they want to usecorrection, if they believe it's
necessary, and if they don'thave the skills as a force free,
(01:08:40):
positive reinforcement trainerto be able to get results, it's
not going to matter.
They'll just find a differentway to punish their dogs.
Now I know a lot of the forcefree trainers are saying well,
will we got to do something, wegot to start somewhere.
(01:09:00):
We're providing education, butnot everybody wants to buy into
that, not everybody wants theeducation, and there's plenty of
Science and research andevidence out there and it's just
being denied and overlooked.
(01:09:23):
So well, what would you have usdo?
I don't know.
I you know they're in the forcefree training community.
The force free trainingcommunity goes beyond Lima.
If you don't know what Lima is,it's an acronym Least invasive,
(01:09:47):
minimally Aversive.
Least invasive, minimallyaversive.
And Lima allows for the use ofaversives.
It allows for negativereinforcement, allows for
(01:10:07):
positive punishment and theassociation of pet dog trainers
excuse me, the association ofprofessional dog trainers that
used to be called pet dogtrainers, the APDT, the
certification council forprofessional dog trainers, as
well as the internationalassociation of animal behavior
consultants, still leave thedoor open For their members and
(01:10:34):
the association of pet dogtrainers, and for their members
To use aversives, still leavesthe door open To use negative
reinforcement, to use positivepunishment.
In fact, the internationalassociation of animal behavior
(01:10:54):
consultants Leaves the door opento use a shock collar, even
though they know the science,even though they know what's
evidence based.
But it's only the force freecommunity that Does away with
(01:11:22):
Lima and Basically says hey,you're not going to use any
aversive, which I've agreed to,and I'm a force free trainer and
I'm okay with that because it'sunnecessary.
However, with Lima, there is ahierarchy In terms of how you
(01:11:47):
train, and first it is Aboutmaking sure that there's no
medical contributing factors.
Check the dog out medicallyNumber one, first and foremost.
Number two, train with positivereinforcement and then also
train with differentialReinforcement.
(01:12:08):
Teach alternative, incompatiblebehaviors to modify behaviors
that you don't want, which canbring about extinction, all
right.
But basically Lima says hey,when that doesn't work, all
right.
If you got to use negativereinforcement, that's your next
step.
Now.
(01:12:29):
I disagree with that.
But, but.
Can you get balance?
trainers To buy into Lima.
Because here's the thing youknow a lot of yeah, there are
some balance trainers that firsttrain with positive
reinforcement, then they proofwith correction and punishment.
(01:12:54):
But You've got A lot ofbalanced trainers that are
teaching right from the get go,teaching right from the get go
with using a versus A lot ofShock collar trainers Start the
dogs.
You need to start the dog, youneed to start the dog.
(01:13:15):
Shock collar trainers Start thedogs immediately on the
electronic collar.
They don't first teach the dogwith positive reinforcement.
Some do, some do.
I think the better way to haveto have gone Would have been to
(01:13:37):
try and well, if, if balancetrainers are looking at their
tools being banned by aparticular organization, they
are not Going to be members ofthat organization.
They are not going to join thatedge, that organization.
(01:14:00):
My contention is Get everybodyin under one big tent and Get
everybody to follow theprinciples of Lima.
To me, that would have been abetter place to start.
I would have wanted to work onrequiring regulation and
(01:14:24):
certification and then, once youhave that down the road, you
can work towards eliminatingthose tools.
However, I'm probably wrong.
I'm probably wrong from thestandpoint that there's only one
(01:14:44):
country that's ever been ableto regulate the dog training
world, and that's Germany.
Yet All kinds of countries havebeen able to outlaw and ban the
use of a verse of tools likeshock collars and prong collars,
but I know for a fact thatthose same countries where
they're outlawed don't have thesame rules.
At those same countries wherethey're outlawed, dogs are being
trained using those tools allthe time Behind closed doors.
(01:15:13):
It really comes down toeducation.
However, education is notenough.
There has to be results, and Ithink that when you make the
claim, listen.
Any behavior can be trainedwith positive reinforcement.
(01:15:33):
Any behavior can be trained outwith positive reinforcement.
You need to know what you'redoing and, by God, please don't
take on cases if you don't knowwhat you're doing, because if
you're a force free trainer, apositive reinforcement trainer,
and you are not good at gettingresults and you're not good at
(01:15:55):
motivating the pet parents to dowhat they need to do to get
results, if you're not a goodcoach and a teacher and they
don't get good results, they'renot going to blame you, they're
going to blame positivereinforcement, they're going to
blame positive reinforcement.
When positive reinforcementworks, just fine.
(01:16:19):
You got to know what you'redoing.
Not everybody does.
So we're getting ready to gointo 2024 here in the next few
days and January I don't know ifyou're aware of this, but every
January is national train yourdog Month and as we go into 2024
(01:16:44):
.
I want all of you To make acommitment that You're going to
have patience With your pets,patience and understanding and
compassion.
(01:17:06):
Look our dogs.
They don't purposely try to dothings to upset us.
They're not stubborn.
A stubborn dog Is nothing morethan a dog that's distracted and
you need to learn how tomotivate that dog and there's
lots of ways to motivate dogs.
They're not stubborn.
(01:17:28):
And those people that say, oh,my dog Not food motivated?
No, that's not.
Does your dog Not eat?
How does your dog survive andlive?
Because any dog that eats andall do or they die they're all
food motivated.
It's a basic Biologicalconstruct.
So if you tell me my dog's notfood motivated, you just don't
(01:17:54):
know how to use food in training.
There's nothing to do withWhether your dog is food
motivated or not food motivated.
A long time ago I had a sayingthat I had typed out On a sign
and I taped it to my mirror, andI'm talking about when I was a
(01:18:16):
teenager and the saying goeslike this those who say it
cannot be done Need to get outof the way.
And I'm talking about those whosay it cannot be done Need to
get out of the way of those whoare doing it.
And that's what I want to sayto all of the trainers out there
that think corrections arenecessary, that think that
(01:18:37):
punishment is necessary.
What I want to say to them isthose of those balanced trainers
that say it can't be done withpositive reinforcement alone.
Those who say it can't be done,please get out of the way of
those of us who are making ithappen.
(01:19:00):
If you're a trainer, if you're abehavior consultant, your job
Needs to be Somebody who canrepresent force free training,
somebody who can representpositive reinforcement training,
not just for dogs that need tolearn how to sit, lay down, come
(01:19:23):
when called, go to their betterplace, not just dogs who need
to learn to stop jumping andstop mouthing and stop chewing
or going to the bathroom in thehouse.
I'm talking about dogs that arevery reactive and very
aggressive.
We need to do a better job.
Those of us that are force freetrainers, those of us that are
(01:19:49):
positive reinforcement trainers.
We need to up the anti honorskills.
We cannot afford to fail andhave a balanced trainer say See,
told you Treat training doesn'twork.
Positive reinforcement doesn'twork.
(01:20:10):
Positive reinforcement doesn'twork.
We tried that positivereinforcement.
It doesn't work Really.
Whenever somebody says that tome, I go Okay, tell me exactly
what you did, exactly how youdid it.
And then, as they startexplaining the process, you find
(01:20:31):
out oh no, they didn't do itright at all.
Of course it didn't work forthem.
That's not the way it'ssupposed to be done.
Let me show you how it'ssupposed to be done, because
folks I consult with people allover the globe and the people
that I work with have dogs withsevere and I mean severe, severe
(01:20:56):
separation, anxiety, severeresource guarding, severe
aggression, reactivity, severephobias and fears and anxiety.
And I'm having great successCoaching people.
Virtually.
I'm not even there, becausereally it's all about teaching
(01:21:17):
you, the pet parent.
You're the one that needs thetraining, you're the one that
needs the coaching.
You, the pet parent, need tounderstand how all this works
and how to make it work withyour dog.
The best behavior can be doneand how all this works and how
to make it work with your dog,the best behavior consultants,
(01:21:37):
the best trainers are the onesthat can teach you the pet
parent and are good at teachingyou the pet parent.
So for 2024.
Just say no to punishment.
Just say no to the use ofaversives and stop thinking
(01:22:01):
about what you don't want yourdog to do.
Start thinking about what youdo want your dog to do and use
positive reinforcement to teachthat alternative behavior.
Have a happy 2024, everybody.
We'll see you next year.
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