May 2, 2022 • 28 mins
Part 5 of 7. Sexting.
This series of podcasts is produced with the support of the Office of the eSafety Commissioner.
We will look closely at how young people might engage with sexual content online and how parents and carers can get involved in this discussion.
In this episode Dr. Kath Albury and SHV Health Promotion Officer Zara, discuss the language and context of young people sharing sexual pictures.
See Youth Law Australia for legal information. See Dr Kath Albury, Swinburne University.
See eSafety at https://www.esafety.gov.au/. Sexual Health Victoria at https://shvic.org.au/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This podcast is intended for an adult audience.
Take care if there might be young people listening.
Welcome to doing it.
This podcast is to help parents carers and anyone working with young people understand relationships and sexuality education.
My name is Anne and I work with the sexual health victoria schools and community team.
(00:21):
We deliver classes to school aged Children so that they can better understand their own bodies.
Growing up respect consent,
reproduction,
sex,
sexual health and relationships.
This is episode five of a seven part series produced with the support of the E Safety Commissioner,
Go back if you've missed any in the E safety Best Practice framework for online safety education.
(00:46):
There is reference to Children's rights online.
They say that young people have the right to provision participation and protection in the digital world.
In this series,
I'm focusing on protection.
We understand that comprehensive relationships and sexuality education can be a protective factor for young people on or offline.
(01:07):
In this episode,
I'm talking about sexting.
I understand that sexting is a word that old people use when they talk about sharing sexual images,
whatever you call them,
nudes,
pics,
phoners.
It's something that sexual health victoria encourages a conversation around before a young person gets their own smartphone.
(01:27):
Trying to understand the law about sexting is a starting point Laws are confusing,
to say the least.
It's also really important to think about sexting in terms of what is ethical and what fits in with someone's values and as it is a sexual activity.
Having an understanding that there must be consent.
I've talked in detail about the laws surrounding sexting in a previous episode with Victoria legal aid.
(01:53):
If you want a detailed understanding of Victorian laws,
go back and listen to episode 36.
You can also go to youth law Australia to search for laws about sexting in your part of Australia.
Just to briefly recap,
according to federal law,
any sexual picture containing or appearing to contain someone under 18 is unlawful to create,
(02:16):
send or store.
There are exemptions in Victoria's for people under 18 who want to send a sexy picture of themselves as long as they send it to a purse Who wants to receive it?
Who is no more than 24 months different in age.
Also,
people under 18 aren't legally able to consent to their picture being shared or published sharing or threatening to share a sexual image without consent is called image-based abuse.
(02:45):
Public discourse about image-based abuse is slowly shifting away from pointing blame and shame on the person in the picture to the person who has shared without consent.
I'm going to speak to Dr Kathe Aubrey Cath is a professor of media at Swinburne University.
She's an expert in the ways that media,
(03:06):
social media and technology intersect with sex,
sexuality and gender.
Kathy,
thank you so much for speaking with me about sexting again.
My first question,
I'm going to speaking with the Safety Commissioner recently,
they talked about the idea of the parental child divide in terms of what parents know about what their Children are doing and what young people are doing.
(03:34):
They talked about this idea.
The parents are actually potentially digital natives themselves now and yet a generation gap still exists.
So even though parents potentially know quite a lot about technology and have grown up with technology,
there's still a generation gap when it comes to attitudes.
So do you think there is a generation gap when it comes to attitudes around sexting?
(03:59):
And do you think that will close as parents potentially know more about technology?
The digit,
I've got to say the digital natives idea has been pretty heavily critiqued in the field because you know,
there are lots of people for example that are really fluent on a platform like facebook that has really good user interface,
(04:22):
but you know,
can't really manage the online portal at work where they have to lodge their taxi receipts.
The ways that we understand technology are just like the ways we understand other things that happen in our lives.
It's about familiarity,
it's about the sense of ease of use,
(04:43):
it's about things seeming simple and straightforward and intuitive and common sense people my age.
So I'm a gen xer I would grew up still kind of pre digital technology definitely used it in my,
in my undergrad and post grad study and it was a very ordinary part of my life,
(05:03):
but it wasn't part of my flirting and dating life when I was a teenager,
so it doesn't seem to me to be easy,
intuitive,
ordinary common sense,
I know talking not with parents,
but with professionals,
it's very hard for them to put themselves in the context of contemporary flirting and dating,
(05:30):
where it's not about a person to person chat necessarily.
It's about sending flirty images,
sending kind of coded communication and that is like the foreplay,
if you like,
that might lead to sending an intimate photo and you'd that kind of thing.
(05:51):
And so the idea that your work in this world of intimacy that involves all of these languages that are that are kind of technology eyes,
so,
and by languages,
I mean things like emoji memes kind of inside jokes inside in modes of flirtation,
but then also photographs of your own body that's that's kind of like learning a new language for some people and if you didn't grow up speaking it yes,
(06:21):
it's going to seem foreign and weird.
Doesn't mean you can't use technology.
It means that particular technological language is not familiar with fluent to you and that context of being a young person is always going to be different between child and adult.
Yeah.
And it's going to be different from one young person to another to so the thing parents often want is like,
(06:46):
you know,
give me the list of apps that are okay and the apps I have to ban or that,
you know the words that are okay or the websites that are okay and the words that we ban And again with language,
like we can say,
you know the ways that people talk with their kids,
for example,
about contextual swearing.
Like it's okay to say that word if you stub your toe,
(07:07):
but please don't drop it at easter lunch at grandma's house.
Like that's inappropriate.
And it's not that the thing itself is always a problem.
It's like it's contextual setting is a problem.
And that's kind of the thing that I think a lot of adults who didn't share pictures in their younger days,
(07:27):
even if they do it as an adult and lots of adults do send sexy pictures or sexy texts to adult partners but not having grown up with it.
You don't remember how you learned the language.
And that's the hard thing because then what was the context in my youthful group where I learned that language?
How was it different in other groups?
What were the expectations around gender norms?
(07:49):
For example,
what did I feel was comfortable for me?
What was imposed on me?
How did I experiment all of that stuff that maybe we have A sense of physical or embodied experience in relation to learning about our own sexuality.
We don't have necessarily a sense if we're 40,
(08:10):
50,
whatever of how that looks when mobile phones and social platforms and picture sharing is part of the process.
Teachers and parents and schools are always looking for ways to include conversations around consent.
So how does a conversation around consent apply to sexting?
Yeah,
I think that that's where I think if people take the pressure away from having to have a special separate conversation about technology and and think about technology in relation to all the other aspects of sexuality and relationships then,
(08:47):
as you say,
it makes life much easier.
So asking um learning to accept no the levels of consent and consent to what and consent to doing something once isn't consent for always and consent to um from one person to another.
(09:09):
Individual person isn't consent to doing that thing with all your mates.
Those are the elements of consent that I think are really relevant for sexting and that kind of seems really simple and obvious.
But if you don't say it,
maybe people don't think it through or maybe in the moment where our kids mates are egging them on and or they're trying to not be the target of bullying and they want some kind of currency or leverage to you know,
(09:44):
feel like they've got the advantage in that situation.
It's quite easy to share that photo.
So those are all the elements of consent that I would think about.
Yeah,
it's all right,
young people's esteem is really on the line when it comes to that currency.
Yeah.
And and and often I think adults think about the 16 thing just in relationship in the context of like a kind of 1 to 1 intimate relationship and that's where you get sometimes if people are thinking about it in a kind of shortsighted way,
(10:20):
a lot of focus on the individual individual good decision or bad decision or whatever.
And why I'm saying that in a kind of sarcastic way is who it all trickles down to is the person that took the photo and blaming the victim.
Like if that person took the picture on the,
you know,
the genuine belief that they were sharing that with someone they trusted,
then you know,
(10:41):
where you've just betrayed their trust again second time.
So that's my problem with that attitude.
But yeah,
often for young people,
the having the images collecting the images sharing the images is kind of a mark of adulthood in the same way that saying you're not a virgin or saying,
(11:02):
you know what a particular sexual practice is.
Is a mark of adulthood group thinking is something we don't always talk about.
We do talk without young people about individual behavior and choices.
Yeah.
But there are,
you know,
there are cultures where,
you know,
Yeah.
It's hard to be different in the culture and all of that.
But there are,
you know,
there are cultures where a lot can go on in the young people's culture.
(11:28):
Yeah.
That is not seen by adults or or is seen and is Condoned and you know,
boys will be boys or whatever,
you know,
stuff people want to say about it.
But yes,
some of it is cultural and it's it's about collections and currency and circulation of the image as currency.
Not necessarily the image is the image of an individual.
(11:48):
And sometimes that sense of look,
this is a person with feelings is worth.
It's worth reminding.
What should young people know about sharing sexual pictures?
All of the usual stuff about what the law says,
acknowledging that the law isn't fair and the law isn't the same as justice because young people will look at the law often and go,
(12:15):
that's not fair.
And I think it's helpful if the adult can go,
yeah,
you're right.
It's not fair.
And people have talked about reforming this law for a number of reasons,
but these parts of it really do apply to you and whether it's fair or not,
this is what applies beyond the law.
I think there then is the common sense how reduction side of it.
(12:39):
Where it's like people can say the picture is you if they share it,
but if your face isn't in it and it's not clearly taken in your bedroom with your cover as the backdrop.
Like it's harder to pin it on you.
And so harm reduction would say this is the law,
(13:02):
you know,
in the same way you talk about drinking or other things with young people.
This is the law or these are the health ramifications of these things.
This is why we don't want you to do it.
But if you do do it,
I need to talk about some things that would make it more dangerous and some things that you could do to make it less dangerous.
(13:25):
But bottom line,
I don't know.
I don't want you to do it for these reasons.
But you know,
that's a conversation about values.
Does it line up with your values too?
Share someone else's sexual picture picture and send it to someone.
And it may be um it may be that an adult would feel very conflicted about that because many adults do have conflict around sexuality when when it comes to pictures because of the kinds of conflict that people have around porn for example,
(14:08):
or gendered understandings of what you do and don't do with your body.
Um and so it could be very confronting for an adult to think about,
oh you know,
do I feel like it's okay for my young person to be flirting and even you know,
(14:34):
showing their bra or whatever to another kid their age,
face to face.
Do I feel like it's okay for them to have a photo of that?
Do I feel like it's okay for them to share a photo of that.
Why does the photo feel different to me?
Um Like that's the kind of process I would suggest people go through because it does feel different,
(14:56):
you know,
and that's the it's no longer Oh,
it's in the bottle in the closet at the sleepover.
It's cute,
you know,
No harm done.
It becomes a different thing for people.
And and and sometimes it associates in their mind with porn,
even if it's not a very explicit image or their attitudes around sex work or the kinds of people,
(15:20):
you know,
they're stigma around sex workers,
for example.
And all of this comes into play in the conversations about 16,
I think,
and they that's why it's probably worth the adult digesting the value stuff a bit for themselves.
And I'm picking it a bit before they go into a value conversation with the young person because a young person is going to have a very different understanding of what adult sexuality is because their context and their language is different.
(15:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The context,
their language and their experience of sexuality is a different experience.
So interesting to talk about the ways that technology,
sexuality,
language and the context of being young or old influence how we think and how we talk about sexual pictures.
(16:11):
I found a young person at work to talk more about the context of growing up with that online language Zara is the health promotion officer at sexual health Victoria.
She says she's not really youth anymore.
She's 24.
I say it still counts.
(16:32):
Thank you so much for speaking with me.
Thank you for having me.
I'm going to ask you about sexting and what young people think about sexting because I'm considering myself not a young person anymore.
So do you think all young people send sexual pictures?
I think that a lot of young people send sexual pictures,
(16:55):
but that young people a significant proportion of people my age,
so people in their mid twenties engage in sexual activity online,
but you grew up at school with a phone and I didn't,
so it wasn't a thing when I was at school,
was it a thing when you were at school that people would share sexual pictures?
(17:18):
Yes,
so I think I grew up at a time that was quite an interesting time because it was,
it was when Iphones and camera phones kind of first came out like a mass.
And so when I was in early high school,
that's when everybody sort of had a phone and everybody started,
(17:42):
you know,
sending photos and there was for people my age and my cohort,
we went through high school without any kind of guidance or understanding from,
you know,
the adults and carers about how to navigate healthy relationships online because it was so new.
(18:04):
And so I think for people in their mid twenties there is it's a unique cohort because there's a lot of trauma based on those experiences and a lack of education and that's something that um,
you know,
as people now get into their early twenties,
we've had to learn a lot of the lessons and you know,
(18:27):
the behaviors and what you can and can't do through experience rather than um via proper education.
So I think that um,
you know,
in your early twenties,
you you do,
you know,
gain confidence and you people learn to understand their sexuality and you know,
they're sexual autonomy.
And I think that um because we were more familiar with technology,
(18:52):
we definitely,
people my age definitely use it um,
to enhance their sexual relationships with each other,
but at the same time,
I think there's also a history of trauma for people my age,
from not having understood how to use it safely and from just,
(19:12):
and it's not actually about blaming anybody in this case,
it's about um,
just learning from the past because I think,
you know,
teachers and parents and you know,
everything was so new technology came out and all of a sudden everyone was using it,
everyone was sending photos,
you know,
you have to develop a curriculum that deals with that before,
(19:34):
you know,
it can ever be taught.
So I think now I've kind of gained a lot of understanding about the value of respectful relationships education.
It's a real argument for doing what we do because now we know it's a thing we should really teach about it definitely.
Do you think young people know how to define what sexting is?
(19:56):
I think that most people my age and younger than me probably can come up with a definition off the top of their heads.
I would say that a lot of people um my age aren't necessarily conscious of the fact that they are sexting or that they are engaging in sexual behavior online because they have become we have become so accustomed to the digital world that it has merged with our physical reality,
(20:32):
the digital space and our everyday lives outside of that have become one.
Sexting is just kind of part of communicating with your partner.
I don't think people really think of it as oh,
I'm going to send a sex.
I also want to say that dating apps like Hinge have been really great because it means that a lot of people have been able to engage in sexual activity with a new partner in a way that's less intimidating.
(21:06):
And so it's a good starting point for sexual connection.
I think it's a good way to practice communication with a partner too,
because you can establish an understanding of how each other communicates in the context of a sexual exchange.
Yeah,
(21:26):
it's a good rehearsal,
I think,
but of course context is really important.
So,
I think part of that communication process online,
if somebody is sexting their partner is working out whether or not they're in the right environment for that and whether it's a safe environment,
whether they're in the right emotional psychological space as well.
(21:47):
So if those etiquette rules which are unwritten but understood a broken,
that's a cue that things are going to go right.
Yes,
definitely.
Do you think young people understand the laws about sexting?
Again,
I can't speak for all young people,
but I think for my cohort um anecdotally I would say that a lot of people my age do not understand the laws about sexting.
(22:13):
Um and again that comes from the lack of education and the complete,
you know,
the huge disparity,
you know,
in the laws between different states as well.
I think in victoria there are certain laws um about sexting and or sending photos that don't apply in other states and you know,
(22:36):
in movies and american tv shows that kind of thing.
You know,
there's so many different kinds of messages and it's hard to actually know.
Do you think there's a general understanding of what good etiquette is in terms of asking for sexy pictures or sending sexy pictures?
Yes.
Well I think in general there is 100% definitely a right way and a wrong way of sending and receiving nudes or sexy pics and I actually don't think it's complicated um,
(23:10):
at all.
I think that um it all just comes down to respect communication,
establishing consent.
Um and also being self aware.
I think if people understand that they have an obligation to be as respectful and act in the same manner that they would in person as they do online.
(23:33):
I think,
you know,
we won't have many issues with online abuse and that sort of thing.
I also think that it might be optimistic saying that there is a general kind of consensus among people my age about like the proper etiquette because again,
lots of people my age weren't educated.
You know,
(23:53):
there are lots and lots of people my age in their mid twenties who are sending and receiving unsolicited dick pics.
Um,
you know,
photos that weren't asked for that weren't wanted or are relentlessly coercing,
you know,
somebody else into sending photos.
(24:14):
And so this is something that I think I have reservations about actually the concept,
I have reservations about um asking actually another person to send sexual photos because I know that um lots of young people,
especially young women,
um become so accustomed to just doing things when they don't really want to.
(24:40):
And so I think that a better way to approach it would actually be to normalize asking our partners for their consent to receive photos rather than asking them to send photos if that makes sense.
Do you think there's a generation gap when it comes to perceptions of sharing sexual pictures?
(25:01):
Yeah,
I think um,
for people older than me,
um,
people my parents age and carers of that kind of generation sending photos.
Um,
and engaging in like sexual behavior online is pathologize it is treated as a bow bad thing and it's always talked about in terms of what could go wrong a lot of that I guess does come from experience because lots of things have gone wrong for so many people because they weren't educated and things weren't dealt dealt with appropriately because nobody had the tools to navigate situations of image based abuse and that kind of thing.
(25:46):
Well,
I think there are negative perceptions,
but it comes out of fear making sure that people and young people are aware that you can have a really healthy consensual sexual relationship with somebody online and that is,
you know,
you're right and it's okay to do that.
It's not hurting anyone if it is respectful and consensual.
So we need to focus on the positive aspects as well as making sure people understand that there are risks.
(26:12):
Do you think you would feel a generation gap if you talk to someone at school now about sexting?
I think they would have a better understanding about the risks perhaps by seeing some of their older siblings and also having a lot more.
They have more education and they are perhaps more aware of the risks.
(26:34):
But I think they also,
there are more open to it just because they've been immersed in it for longer,
especially with Tiktok.
Tiktok is completely normalized sexual photos and like there are so many videos that young people have access to every day showing,
you know how to take a sexy nude,
um,
(26:54):
how to look good when you take a photo for your partner,
what to do,
what not to do tips and tricks and you know,
that can be really great.
That's that's incredibly sex positive.
And that's hopefully with the right education,
they will be able to look at that with a critical lens and realize where it's safe and where it's not safe to engage in those kind of relationships.
(27:20):
Thank you to Dr Kathe Auberry and Sarah.
I think they both highlighted the importance of nuanced,
sensitive education around sending sexual pictures online.
Young people will have their own cultural context for this and perhaps a fluency of online language that can be hard to understand if it's new for more information on sexual health victoria,
(27:43):
go to S H vik dot org dot au.
You can see Youth law Australia.
For more legal information,
which is state by state based.
I'll put a link for dr Kath Albury in the show notes as well.
For research,
information and resources on the safety,
go to e safety dot gov dot au.
(28:05):
You can contact me directly at doing it at S H vik dot org dot au.
And you can follow sexual health victoria on facebook instagram,
twitter or linked in.
Thanks so much for listening.
This podcast is intended for an adult audience.
Take care if there might be young people listening.
Welcome to doing it.
This podcast is to help parents carers and anyone working with young people understand relationships and sexuality education.
My name is Anne and I work with the sexual health victoria schools and community team.
(00:21):
We deliver classes to school aged Children so that they can better understand their own bodies.
Growing up respect consent,
reproduction,
sex,
sexual health and relationships.
This is episode five of a seven part series produced with the support of the E Safety Commissioner,
Go back if you've missed any in the E safety Best Practice framework for online safety education.
(00:46):
There is reference to Children's rights online.
They say that young people have the right to provision participation and protection in the digital world.
In this series,
I'm focusing on protection.
We understand that comprehensive relationships and sexuality education can be a protective factor for young people on or offline.
(01:07):
In this episode,
I'm talking about sexting.
I understand that sexting is a word that old people use when they talk about sharing sexual images,
whatever you call them,
nudes,
pics,
phoners.
It's something that sexual health victoria encourages a conversation around before a young person gets their own smartphone.
(01:27):
Trying to understand the law about sexting is a starting point Laws are confusing,
to say the least.
It's also really important to think about sexting in terms of what is ethical and what fits in with someone's values and as it is a sexual activity.
Having an understanding that there must be consent.
I've talked in detail about the laws surrounding sexting in a previous episode with Victoria legal aid.
(01:53):
If you want a detailed understanding of Victorian laws,
go back and listen to episode 36.
You can also go to youth law Australia to search for laws about sexting in your part of Australia.
Just to briefly recap,
according to federal law,
any sexual picture containing or appearing to contain someone under 18 is unlawful to create,
(02:16):
send or store.
There are exemptions in Victoria's for people under 18 who want to send a sexy picture of themselves as long as they send it to a purse Who wants to receive it?
Who is no more than 24 months different in age.
Also,
people under 18 aren't legally able to consent to their picture being shared or published sharing or threatening to share a sexual image without consent is called image-based abuse.
(02:45):
Public discourse about image-based abuse is slowly shifting away from pointing blame and shame on the person in the picture to the person who has shared without consent.
I'm going to speak to Dr Kathe Aubrey Cath is a professor of media at Swinburne University.
She's an expert in the ways that media,
(03:06):
social media and technology intersect with sex,
sexuality and gender.
Kathy,
thank you so much for speaking with me about sexting again.
My first question,
I'm going to speaking with the Safety Commissioner recently,
they talked about the idea of the parental child divide in terms of what parents know about what their Children are doing and what young people are doing.
(03:34):
They talked about this idea.
The parents are actually potentially digital natives themselves now and yet a generation gap still exists.
So even though parents potentially know quite a lot about technology and have grown up with technology,
there's still a generation gap when it comes to attitudes.
So do you think there is a generation gap when it comes to attitudes around sexting?
(03:59):
And do you think that will close as parents potentially know more about technology?
The digit,
I've got to say the digital natives idea has been pretty heavily critiqued in the field because you know,
there are lots of people for example that are really fluent on a platform like facebook that has really good user interface,
(04:22):
but you know,
can't really manage the online portal at work where they have to lodge their taxi receipts.
The ways that we understand technology are just like the ways we understand other things that happen in our lives.
It's about familiarity,
it's about the sense of ease of use,
(04:43):
it's about things seeming simple and straightforward and intuitive and common sense people my age.
So I'm a gen xer I would grew up still kind of pre digital technology definitely used it in my,
in my undergrad and post grad study and it was a very ordinary part of my life,
(05:03):
but it wasn't part of my flirting and dating life when I was a teenager,
so it doesn't seem to me to be easy,
intuitive,
ordinary common sense,
I know talking not with parents,
but with professionals,
it's very hard for them to put themselves in the context of contemporary flirting and dating,
(05:30):
where it's not about a person to person chat necessarily.
It's about sending flirty images,
sending kind of coded communication and that is like the foreplay,
if you like,
that might lead to sending an intimate photo and you'd that kind of thing.
(05:51):
And so the idea that your work in this world of intimacy that involves all of these languages that are that are kind of technology eyes,
so,
and by languages,
I mean things like emoji memes kind of inside jokes inside in modes of flirtation,
but then also photographs of your own body that's that's kind of like learning a new language for some people and if you didn't grow up speaking it yes,
(06:21):
it's going to seem foreign and weird.
Doesn't mean you can't use technology.
It means that particular technological language is not familiar with fluent to you and that context of being a young person is always going to be different between child and adult.
Yeah.
And it's going to be different from one young person to another to so the thing parents often want is like,
(06:46):
you know,
give me the list of apps that are okay and the apps I have to ban or that,
you know the words that are okay or the websites that are okay and the words that we ban And again with language,
like we can say,
you know the ways that people talk with their kids,
for example,
about contextual swearing.
Like it's okay to say that word if you stub your toe,
(07:07):
but please don't drop it at easter lunch at grandma's house.
Like that's inappropriate.
And it's not that the thing itself is always a problem.
It's like it's contextual setting is a problem.
And that's kind of the thing that I think a lot of adults who didn't share pictures in their younger days,
(07:27):
even if they do it as an adult and lots of adults do send sexy pictures or sexy texts to adult partners but not having grown up with it.
You don't remember how you learned the language.
And that's the hard thing because then what was the context in my youthful group where I learned that language?
How was it different in other groups?
What were the expectations around gender norms?
(07:49):
For example,
what did I feel was comfortable for me?
What was imposed on me?
How did I experiment all of that stuff that maybe we have A sense of physical or embodied experience in relation to learning about our own sexuality.
We don't have necessarily a sense if we're 40,
(08:10):
50,
whatever of how that looks when mobile phones and social platforms and picture sharing is part of the process.
Teachers and parents and schools are always looking for ways to include conversations around consent.
So how does a conversation around consent apply to sexting?
Yeah,
I think that that's where I think if people take the pressure away from having to have a special separate conversation about technology and and think about technology in relation to all the other aspects of sexuality and relationships then,
(08:47):
as you say,
it makes life much easier.
So asking um learning to accept no the levels of consent and consent to what and consent to doing something once isn't consent for always and consent to um from one person to another.
(09:09):
Individual person isn't consent to doing that thing with all your mates.
Those are the elements of consent that I think are really relevant for sexting and that kind of seems really simple and obvious.
But if you don't say it,
maybe people don't think it through or maybe in the moment where our kids mates are egging them on and or they're trying to not be the target of bullying and they want some kind of currency or leverage to you know,
(09:44):
feel like they've got the advantage in that situation.
It's quite easy to share that photo.
So those are all the elements of consent that I would think about.
Yeah,
it's all right,
young people's esteem is really on the line when it comes to that currency.
Yeah.
And and and often I think adults think about the 16 thing just in relationship in the context of like a kind of 1 to 1 intimate relationship and that's where you get sometimes if people are thinking about it in a kind of shortsighted way,
(10:20):
a lot of focus on the individual individual good decision or bad decision or whatever.
And why I'm saying that in a kind of sarcastic way is who it all trickles down to is the person that took the photo and blaming the victim.
Like if that person took the picture on the,
you know,
the genuine belief that they were sharing that with someone they trusted,
then you know,
(10:41):
where you've just betrayed their trust again second time.
So that's my problem with that attitude.
But yeah,
often for young people,
the having the images collecting the images sharing the images is kind of a mark of adulthood in the same way that saying you're not a virgin or saying,
(11:02):
you know what a particular sexual practice is.
Is a mark of adulthood group thinking is something we don't always talk about.
We do talk without young people about individual behavior and choices.
Yeah.
But there are,
you know,
there are cultures where,
you know,
Yeah.
It's hard to be different in the culture and all of that.
But there are,
you know,
there are cultures where a lot can go on in the young people's culture.
(11:28):
Yeah.
That is not seen by adults or or is seen and is Condoned and you know,
boys will be boys or whatever,
you know,
stuff people want to say about it.
But yes,
some of it is cultural and it's it's about collections and currency and circulation of the image as currency.
Not necessarily the image is the image of an individual.
(11:48):
And sometimes that sense of look,
this is a person with feelings is worth.
It's worth reminding.
What should young people know about sharing sexual pictures?
All of the usual stuff about what the law says,
acknowledging that the law isn't fair and the law isn't the same as justice because young people will look at the law often and go,
(12:15):
that's not fair.
And I think it's helpful if the adult can go,
yeah,
you're right.
It's not fair.
And people have talked about reforming this law for a number of reasons,
but these parts of it really do apply to you and whether it's fair or not,
this is what applies beyond the law.
I think there then is the common sense how reduction side of it.
(12:39):
Where it's like people can say the picture is you if they share it,
but if your face isn't in it and it's not clearly taken in your bedroom with your cover as the backdrop.
Like it's harder to pin it on you.
And so harm reduction would say this is the law,
(13:02):
you know,
in the same way you talk about drinking or other things with young people.
This is the law or these are the health ramifications of these things.
This is why we don't want you to do it.
But if you do do it,
I need to talk about some things that would make it more dangerous and some things that you could do to make it less dangerous.
(13:25):
But bottom line,
I don't know.
I don't want you to do it for these reasons.
But you know,
that's a conversation about values.
Does it line up with your values too?
Share someone else's sexual picture picture and send it to someone.
And it may be um it may be that an adult would feel very conflicted about that because many adults do have conflict around sexuality when when it comes to pictures because of the kinds of conflict that people have around porn for example,
(14:08):
or gendered understandings of what you do and don't do with your body.
Um and so it could be very confronting for an adult to think about,
oh you know,
do I feel like it's okay for my young person to be flirting and even you know,
(14:34):
showing their bra or whatever to another kid their age,
face to face.
Do I feel like it's okay for them to have a photo of that?
Do I feel like it's okay for them to share a photo of that.
Why does the photo feel different to me?
Um Like that's the kind of process I would suggest people go through because it does feel different,
(14:56):
you know,
and that's the it's no longer Oh,
it's in the bottle in the closet at the sleepover.
It's cute,
you know,
No harm done.
It becomes a different thing for people.
And and and sometimes it associates in their mind with porn,
even if it's not a very explicit image or their attitudes around sex work or the kinds of people,
(15:20):
you know,
they're stigma around sex workers,
for example.
And all of this comes into play in the conversations about 16,
I think,
and they that's why it's probably worth the adult digesting the value stuff a bit for themselves.
And I'm picking it a bit before they go into a value conversation with the young person because a young person is going to have a very different understanding of what adult sexuality is because their context and their language is different.
(15:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The context,
their language and their experience of sexuality is a different experience.
So interesting to talk about the ways that technology,
sexuality,
language and the context of being young or old influence how we think and how we talk about sexual pictures.
(16:11):
I found a young person at work to talk more about the context of growing up with that online language Zara is the health promotion officer at sexual health Victoria.
She says she's not really youth anymore.
She's 24.
I say it still counts.
(16:32):
Thank you so much for speaking with me.
Thank you for having me.
I'm going to ask you about sexting and what young people think about sexting because I'm considering myself not a young person anymore.
So do you think all young people send sexual pictures?
I think that a lot of young people send sexual pictures,
(16:55):
but that young people a significant proportion of people my age,
so people in their mid twenties engage in sexual activity online,
but you grew up at school with a phone and I didn't,
so it wasn't a thing when I was at school,
was it a thing when you were at school that people would share sexual pictures?
(17:18):
Yes,
so I think I grew up at a time that was quite an interesting time because it was,
it was when Iphones and camera phones kind of first came out like a mass.
And so when I was in early high school,
that's when everybody sort of had a phone and everybody started,
(17:42):
you know,
sending photos and there was for people my age and my cohort,
we went through high school without any kind of guidance or understanding from,
you know,
the adults and carers about how to navigate healthy relationships online because it was so new.
(18:04):
And so I think for people in their mid twenties there is it's a unique cohort because there's a lot of trauma based on those experiences and a lack of education and that's something that um,
you know,
as people now get into their early twenties,
we've had to learn a lot of the lessons and you know,
(18:27):
the behaviors and what you can and can't do through experience rather than um via proper education.
So I think that um,
you know,
in your early twenties,
you you do,
you know,
gain confidence and you people learn to understand their sexuality and you know,
they're sexual autonomy.
And I think that um because we were more familiar with technology,
(18:52):
we definitely,
people my age definitely use it um,
to enhance their sexual relationships with each other,
but at the same time,
I think there's also a history of trauma for people my age,
from not having understood how to use it safely and from just,
(19:12):
and it's not actually about blaming anybody in this case,
it's about um,
just learning from the past because I think,
you know,
teachers and parents and you know,
everything was so new technology came out and all of a sudden everyone was using it,
everyone was sending photos,
you know,
you have to develop a curriculum that deals with that before,
(19:34):
you know,
it can ever be taught.
So I think now I've kind of gained a lot of understanding about the value of respectful relationships education.
It's a real argument for doing what we do because now we know it's a thing we should really teach about it definitely.
Do you think young people know how to define what sexting is?
(19:56):
I think that most people my age and younger than me probably can come up with a definition off the top of their heads.
I would say that a lot of people um my age aren't necessarily conscious of the fact that they are sexting or that they are engaging in sexual behavior online because they have become we have become so accustomed to the digital world that it has merged with our physical reality,
(20:32):
the digital space and our everyday lives outside of that have become one.
Sexting is just kind of part of communicating with your partner.
I don't think people really think of it as oh,
I'm going to send a sex.
I also want to say that dating apps like Hinge have been really great because it means that a lot of people have been able to engage in sexual activity with a new partner in a way that's less intimidating.
(21:06):
And so it's a good starting point for sexual connection.
I think it's a good way to practice communication with a partner too,
because you can establish an understanding of how each other communicates in the context of a sexual exchange.
Yeah,
(21:26):
it's a good rehearsal,
I think,
but of course context is really important.
So,
I think part of that communication process online,
if somebody is sexting their partner is working out whether or not they're in the right environment for that and whether it's a safe environment,
whether they're in the right emotional psychological space as well.
(21:47):
So if those etiquette rules which are unwritten but understood a broken,
that's a cue that things are going to go right.
Yes,
definitely.
Do you think young people understand the laws about sexting?
Again,
I can't speak for all young people,
but I think for my cohort um anecdotally I would say that a lot of people my age do not understand the laws about sexting.
(22:13):
Um and again that comes from the lack of education and the complete,
you know,
the huge disparity,
you know,
in the laws between different states as well.
I think in victoria there are certain laws um about sexting and or sending photos that don't apply in other states and you know,
(22:36):
in movies and american tv shows that kind of thing.
You know,
there's so many different kinds of messages and it's hard to actually know.
Do you think there's a general understanding of what good etiquette is in terms of asking for sexy pictures or sending sexy pictures?
Yes.
Well I think in general there is 100% definitely a right way and a wrong way of sending and receiving nudes or sexy pics and I actually don't think it's complicated um,
(23:10):
at all.
I think that um it all just comes down to respect communication,
establishing consent.
Um and also being self aware.
I think if people understand that they have an obligation to be as respectful and act in the same manner that they would in person as they do online.
(23:33):
I think,
you know,
we won't have many issues with online abuse and that sort of thing.
I also think that it might be optimistic saying that there is a general kind of consensus among people my age about like the proper etiquette because again,
lots of people my age weren't educated.
You know,
(23:53):
there are lots and lots of people my age in their mid twenties who are sending and receiving unsolicited dick pics.
Um,
you know,
photos that weren't asked for that weren't wanted or are relentlessly coercing,
you know,
somebody else into sending photos.
(24:14):
And so this is something that I think I have reservations about actually the concept,
I have reservations about um asking actually another person to send sexual photos because I know that um lots of young people,
especially young women,
um become so accustomed to just doing things when they don't really want to.
(24:40):
And so I think that a better way to approach it would actually be to normalize asking our partners for their consent to receive photos rather than asking them to send photos if that makes sense.
Do you think there's a generation gap when it comes to perceptions of sharing sexual pictures?
(25:01):
Yeah,
I think um,
for people older than me,
um,
people my parents age and carers of that kind of generation sending photos.
Um,
and engaging in like sexual behavior online is pathologize it is treated as a bow bad thing and it's always talked about in terms of what could go wrong a lot of that I guess does come from experience because lots of things have gone wrong for so many people because they weren't educated and things weren't dealt dealt with appropriately because nobody had the tools to navigate situations of image based abuse and that kind of thing.
(25:46):
Well,
I think there are negative perceptions,
but it comes out of fear making sure that people and young people are aware that you can have a really healthy consensual sexual relationship with somebody online and that is,
you know,
you're right and it's okay to do that.
It's not hurting anyone if it is respectful and consensual.
So we need to focus on the positive aspects as well as making sure people understand that there are risks.
(26:12):
Do you think you would feel a generation gap if you talk to someone at school now about sexting?
I think they would have a better understanding about the risks perhaps by seeing some of their older siblings and also having a lot more.
They have more education and they are perhaps more aware of the risks.
(26:34):
But I think they also,
there are more open to it just because they've been immersed in it for longer,
especially with Tiktok.
Tiktok is completely normalized sexual photos and like there are so many videos that young people have access to every day showing,
you know how to take a sexy nude,
um,
(26:54):
how to look good when you take a photo for your partner,
what to do,
what not to do tips and tricks and you know,
that can be really great.
That's that's incredibly sex positive.
And that's hopefully with the right education,
they will be able to look at that with a critical lens and realize where it's safe and where it's not safe to engage in those kind of relationships.
(27:20):
Thank you to Dr Kathe Auberry and Sarah.
I think they both highlighted the importance of nuanced,
sensitive education around sending sexual pictures online.
Young people will have their own cultural context for this and perhaps a fluency of online language that can be hard to understand if it's new for more information on sexual health victoria,
(27:43):
go to S H vik dot org dot au.
You can see Youth law Australia.
For more legal information,
which is state by state based.
I'll put a link for dr Kath Albury in the show notes as well.
For research,
information and resources on the safety,
go to e safety dot gov dot au.
(28:05):
You can contact me directly at doing it at S H vik dot org dot au.
And you can follow sexual health victoria on facebook instagram,
twitter or linked in.
Thanks so much for listening.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.