May 16, 2022 • 29 mins
Part 6 of 7. Pornography.
This series of podcasts is produced with the support of the Office of the eSafety Commissioner.
We will look closely at how young people might engage with sexual content online and how parents and carers can get involved in this discussion.
In this episode Dr Zahra Stardust talks about the cultural context of pornography and how consent is vital for its production and distribution. Vanessa Hamilton speaks about her experiences in talking to families about young people, sex and pornography.
See bio for Zahra Stardust. See Talking the Talk (Vanessa Hamilton)
See Mind The Gap eSafety research.
See eSafety at https://www.esafety.gov.au/. Sexual Health Victoria at https://shvic.org.au/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
this podcast is intended for an adult audience.
Take care if there might be young people listening.
Welcome to doing it.
This is a podcast to help parents carers and anyone working with young people understand relationships and sexuality education.
My name is anne.
I work with the sexual health victoria's schools and community team.
(00:29):
We deliver the Everybody Education program to school aged Children so they can better understand their own bodies.
Growing up respect consent reproduction,
sex,
sexual health and relationships.
This is episode six of a seven part series produced with the support of the East Safety Commissioner,
go back a few episodes if you miss them in the safety Best Practice framework for online safety education.
(00:56):
There is reference to Children's rights online.
They say that young people have the right to provision participation and protection in the digital world.
In this series,
I'm focusing on protection.
We understand that comprehensive relationships and sexuality education can be a protective factor for young people on or offline in this episode,
(01:20):
I want to understand more about pornography.
It doesn't seem unusual that young people would be interested in pictures of people doing sexy things.
What has changed dramatically since the advent of the internet is the accessibility of pornography and this increase of accessibility has led to greater volume and type of sexually explicit material available.
(01:49):
Young same sex attracted or gender diverse people might be uniquely interested given the lack of diversity in relationships represented in mainstream media.
We work with the definition that pornography is material that is designed to be sexually arousing and is created and distributed with the consent of all involved note that we won't be focusing on illegal sexual content such as child sexual abuse material in this episode?
(02:19):
So what is pornography?
And what should we tell our young people about it?
Doctors are a stardust is an activist researcher and socio legal scholar working in the intersections of sexuality,
technology and law.
She is currently working on a collaborative project with unesco about how automated content moderation practices impact sex education.
(02:46):
She also has experience in the sex work industry.
A common message we give in class is that online sex is different to sex in real life with a partner.
So is that true?
And what is the difference?
Thank you so much for speaking with me about sex and pornography.
(03:11):
So I'm delivering sex education classes frequently to young people and we often talk about pornography being for entertainment,
not for education.
What is the difference?
This is a really great question.
And it's actually something I get asked a lot.
And my first response is it's not necessarily an either or thing.
(03:32):
Porn is many things like porn is social porn is cultural porn is often political,
it's often artistic and it can be educative.
So it's many things to many people.
It does different kinds of cultural work in the world and it's not a monolith.
So there's different kinds of porn,
you know,
it's almost like asking is film,
(03:52):
education or entertainment?
And then the questions become,
well,
is it a documentary or is it news media or is it fantasy?
You know?
It depends.
And so I think sometimes this drive to limit porn as either entertainment or education or only entertainment or education.
Sometimes it stems from the history where pornography in and of itself is seen as so based that it needs to be redeemed by other forms of merit.
(04:19):
So for example,
we have this long history in Western countries in terms of our porn regulation from obscenity.
Lord classification laws where porn itself is seen as so unworthy of any legal protection unless it has,
say scientific merit or artistic merit or educational merit.
It's so based that it's not even protected by us freedom of speech.
(04:42):
So part of this is about porn stigma.
And so when people ask is porn educational entertainment.
In part,
my answer is,
well,
it can be both because porn is multifaceted and it depends on the producer and the performer and then the audience.
But I think the important thing to note is that pornography is true differently to other forms of entertainment.
(05:03):
So it's what we call exceptional lines,
people are less concerned that young people will learn violence when they watch Hollywood films,
but they presume that people are learning something from pornography.
And so then we have this very strict legal framework around the production,
the streaming,
the distribution and the sale of pornography much more so than other forms of media,
(05:27):
especially violent media.
And so many people working in pornography will say,
well,
it's totally disproportionate or their double standards and pornography shouldn't be expected to be a default form of sex education.
It shouldn't be expected to make up for the deficiencies of state population level sex education because that's up to governments to provide comprehensive curriculum.
(05:52):
Um and porn should be allowed to be fantasy.
It's a creative medium.
It can be experimental,
it can be fun.
It doesn't need to be realistic.
So then some of the critiques that get leveled out at pornography are often also contradictory to So On the one hand,
porn is critiqued for being unrealistic.
And then on the other,
it's often critiqued as being too realistic.
(06:13):
Like it's too graphic or it's too close.
And these contradictions traced back to attempts to differentiate art from pornography in the 18th century when we had photography come in and photography was seen as something that was too real.
It was too pornographic compared to say,
like a nude painting which which left something to the imagination.
(06:35):
So I think there's always like a class element to these questions like art or education,
Things that can be enjoyed by the middle classes.
Entertainment is something for the masses.
It's the popular culture.
Governments consistently worry that entertainment will be corruptive of population so that it seeks to restrict it,
especially as it becomes more democratized.
(06:57):
So we need to be mindful of some of these histories that tend to load these these questions of is it art or is it porn as if porn can't be artistic or is it entertainment or is it education?
Well it doesn't need to be in either or and so we should think well how does this question limit what porn can be and how does it fuel the regulatory environment as well?
(07:20):
And lastly I would add that it's important to point out that many producers are specifically making porn that is educative and there's been a big movement to make safer sex sexy or too eroticized condom use.
And we see this through many health promotion campaigns,
especially around HIV prevention.
Since the eighties,
we have really amazing examples of performers creating sites like Sex school in Berlin,
(07:45):
where there are performers getting together to make videos that are deliberately educative or we have sites like O.
M.
G.
S.
Which teach people techniques for masturbation.
Um And many performers themselves are essentially frontline responders to questions about sex education because consumers will be coming to their websites and disclosing many different personal problems and queries and and performers are responding based on their expertise.
(08:14):
There was a study by ERos association who found that in Australia,
79% of producers are now women,
50% of producers,
L.
G.
B.
T.
Q.
And a third of people in their survey switched between performer,
producer and director.
So people are performing multiple roles and it's really changing the kinds of things that are available.
(08:38):
And when you talk about rules and regulations,
you know,
in particularly we've got that 18 year old cut off and we know that doesn't really Does't work.
We know people under 18 are accessing pornography and are seeking answers to questions.
So there's a whole population of people between 16 and 18 who can consent to sex,
(09:00):
but who are not legally able to access pornographic content or sexually explicit media,
who are missing out on that kind of direct forms of sex education.
Um so yeah,
I think that it's it's really important to ensure that young people understand kind of the context of porn production and and are competent and literate in the kinds of conversations that are being,
(09:23):
have it happening at the public level and in the public sphere,
especially those being driven by pro we often talk about consent when we're talking about pornography production and it's made with the consent and distributed with the consent of all involved.
So what does consent look like in porn production?
This is a great question,
(09:44):
because consent is relevant at so many different stages in the process in production as well as in distribution,
like you say,
I think it's important to note that because now we have technology that's more affordable.
It's more intuitive,
it's more accessible.
Many more people can become producers themselves.
And so we have a lot of sex workers who have been largely in front of the camera before,
(10:08):
who are now stepping behind the camera and bringing the values and ethics back to production and really intervening in that space,
which is really exciting.
There's this big push,
especially among India producers,
feminist producers,
queer producers about having a collaborative ethics to how scenes are designed to begin with.
So it's less about having a hierarchical kind of top down or casting couch approach where the director descript something and the performers have to do it.
(10:37):
But really performers are becoming directors of their own scenes and the directors then just become facilitators of whatever the performers desires are.
And there's also a great focus now on informed consent.
So making sure there is full and frank disclosure about what the onset expectations are for performers before they arrive on the day.
(11:00):
So performers,
in my interviews,
I did interviews with korean feminist performers as part of my PhD and many spoke about wanting transparency about things like how long they're going to be required on set,
who their co stars are going to be because people want to be able to choose and refuse what kind of acts they're going to be expected to do.
(11:21):
Like do they need,
will they still get paid if they don't orgasm,
which is a really important question because sometimes there will be an expectation of orgasm and others do not take an orgasm centric focus and they'll just be paid for their time,
Whatever type of intimacy they choose to engage with.
So these types of things are important,
what they're going to get paid,
will they be expected to do behind the scenes interviews as well or just the content?
(11:45):
Will there be other people present on the set,
like other crew?
And now there's a big push from black indigenous performers and people of color to know what the name of the film will be in advance because it's been the experience of many people that they will film a scene and then later it will be titled with racial slurs or racist terminology.
(12:08):
And so people want to know up front in advance how a film is going to what kind of language it's going to be used in their marketing before they I consent to being involved?
And this also goes for performers wanting to be specific about the types of demographic and cultural and social descriptors that are used,
(12:29):
making sure that films use their pronouns and particular descriptors that they like to describe their body and having a say in those sorts of things that's really important.
Now,
also people want upfront information about the distribution.
So what's going to happen to their footage after the shoot?
How will it be edited?
And will they have any control or say over that?
(12:51):
Is it going to be just sold to anybody or will it be licensed to third parties?
Will the producers or directors have a policy in place to follow up where it inevitably gets Pirated?
Like what are they going to do about that?
And sometimes it's also about like whether they have policies on how to moderate comments on the sites,
like other comments gonna be moderated retroactively or does each comment have to be approved?
(13:15):
Because that makes that's an issue about safety for the performers on the site in terms of how people are speaking about their bodies and their content.
So these are all things that are important to know in advance and consent also happens in the recruitment phase as well.
So some smaller production companies will not actively recruit,
but they will just wait for performers to come to them.
(13:38):
Sometimes there's a vouching system by word of mouth.
They only want to work with people who self nominate and sometimes people will have cooling off periods as well to make sure that performers have a chance to think about all these things like the discriminatory impacts or the stigmatized impacts of the industry,
how it might impact your future employment or your family life or your child custody,
(14:03):
things like that.
So giving people an opportunity to really think and give informed and thoughtful and conscious consent.
I'll also add that consent culture is relates to people's sexual health decisions on set.
So we see a lot of legislation being proposed,
particularly in California about like mandatory condoms on set,
(14:26):
but many performers um prefer instead of mandatory sexual health provisions,
like mandatory condoms are mandatory testing.
They want to have choice over their risk reduction strategies.
So it's about making sure producers provide free and hypoallergenic and different options.
You know,
whether it's latex or non later gloves and dams and condoms for people to use also have options for sarah sorting if people are of different sexual health status is um,
(14:58):
some people will be on prep and some people will be on treatment as prevention.
So they will have an undetectable viral load,
which means they can't transmit HIV.
Some p people will also want to have covid safe sets and so they will design a scene where like they avoid the face to face kinds of contact and they choose a different activity.
(15:18):
So all of these things are really should be up to performers to negotiate together and then supported and facilitated by the producers and the directors um,
consent then also after the shoot relates to what happens to the product itself.
So will performance be paid a flat fee or are they going to have a percentage of the royalties.
(15:44):
Um,
and how often will that get paid or will they have like joint joint ownership of the product And then they get to make decisions together with the directors and producers about where it gets sold and where it gets screened.
So they'll have a bit more control in those circumstances.
Or will it be like a trade for content where they will trade their performance and then obtain a copy of the film that they can then monetize on their own websites.
(16:06):
All those different models are things that performers need to think about in terms of informed consent before,
before the shoot.
And then lastly,
I would say that consent is often depicted now or more frequently depicted as part of the process of the film.
And many feminist and queer performers are making a really big effort to shoot behind the scenes interviews with people like before the shoots after the shoots.
(16:34):
Also include all of those like mid scene check ins and those kind of awkward moments that in the past may have just been edited out.
Um,
making sure they shoot if performers raise things where something feels uncomfortable or they need to change positions or somebody had slipped on the loop or the condom doesn't fit or all those sorts of things.
(16:54):
Even like after the shoot,
talking about well what went well and what didn't go well like having a debrief and then people will also want to talk about what things they like and what things they don't like in advance.
And more often producers are shooting these conversations so people will raise things like,
well I'm on antidepressant medication at the moment.
(17:16):
So that impacts my libido in these ways.
I really like this kind of vibration,
but I don't like this type of pressure and filming those conversations is a really great intervention into having a more overt kind of consent culture on set.
So interesting.
I imagine it's difficult as a consumer and especially as you say,
(17:36):
a lot of content is stolen and that's what people are viewing,
particularly young people like how do they tell?
How do they become discerning consumers and figure out if all those things have happened?
Yes,
that's a really great question.
James lee who's a gender queer performer over in California has a great article on that around the ethics of paying for your porn but also talks consumers through things to look out for.
(18:03):
And often it's about listening to the conversations and the blogs and the blogs that performers are putting out where they give their own testimonials about what,
what companies that have had good experiences with or not.
And it's also about looking to those companies themselves,
looking at their mission statements and their ethics and transparency statements on their website about their policies in regard to these issues.
(18:27):
So yeah,
there is a big push for ethical consumption in pornography.
Absolutely.
And what would you want young people to know about pornography?
I want young people to understand the political economy of how porn is made.
And it's important to know that aggregate porn sites,
tube sites often have very exploitative practices,
(18:49):
especially around acquiring content and porn hub is a notorious example of this.
So people usually go to porn hub as the example of what pornography is available for young people,
but it's a monopoly.
It's Pirated,
much content.
It brought up all of many production and distribution studios to become like really dominating force in that space.
(19:12):
And it has not always had really great policies around supporting and paying for the work of independent producers.
So it's really important to um to keep that in mind.
And then the last thing I'll say is that I think young people and any consumer really should be invested in sex worker rights and know that the performance themselves are humans.
(19:35):
They're people who deserve occupation,
health and safety.
Young people should be able to understand the context in which point is produced,
even if they can't access their content and then have the tools to be able to navigate the media and the public debate so that they can critically engage with some of those narratives that circulate.
(19:56):
Thank you so much.
It's my pleasure.
Thanks so much for having me,
Sarah mentioned at one point that young people may be legally allowed to have sexual relationships,
yet have different restrictions when it comes to watching pornography.
Many Children who access pornography are not legally physically,
(20:19):
socially or emotionally ready for sex without open conversation and education.
Children might not know much about sexual decision making,
let alone sourcing ethical porn.
It's a strong argument for providing relationships and sexuality education to students in order that they make ethical choices which are right for them as they become sexually active.
(20:45):
Vanessa Hambleton is the founder of talking the talk sexuality education.
She frequently speaks to parents and carers about sexuality education and hears their concerns about pornography firsthand,
Vanessa,
thank you so much for speaking with me.
It's an absolute pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
(21:06):
We're talking about pornography in this episode,
and I know that's something that you speak with adults about in relation to their Children.
So,
when you do speak to adults,
what sort of thing are they worried about?
Interesting question.
When I speak to parents concerning lee,
I don't think they're worried enough to be honest.
(21:28):
And I for find that when I give them the statistics about what the content is and the impact it has on their Children and the young ages that Children are accessing pornography,
it's then that they really start to worry,
because I think in a way they have put it,
it's a bit too hard and it's in the too hard basket.
But then on the other hand,
there is always a cohort of parents who've had experiences where their Children have accessed it,
(21:52):
and they tell me stories of significant impact and harm on their young Children.
And the things they're worried about is the inaccuracies of it,
and the fact that it,
number one,
it's them seeing sex in inverted commas number two,
that they do get the inclination that it isn't reflective of typical respectful relationships.
(22:15):
Um and most importantly,
they do have that sense that it is having a huge impact visually on the Children and that they're seeking it out.
They hear about the fact that kids look at it,
but each individual parent really needs to think about their own family.
And is it impacting on their child?
What is the difference between a young person seeing pornography and an adult?
(22:38):
What is a young person?
So,
to me,
Children are under 17 and under,
and I think it's different for all the different age groups,
broadly speaking,
though.
I think um it's not so much of a problem of Children seeing human sexual contact,
because after all,
that's just a typical normal human experience.
(23:00):
The problem is that it's not just nakedness and nudity,
it's um telling young people that sex involves violent depictions of choking,
gagging,
lack of consent,
no sexual communication fake bodies power and control.
So,
the difference is an adult can is not a novice,
(23:23):
A young person is a novice and an adult is able hopefully to decipher the differences of the messaging in this sexual contact.
Whereas we understand that young Children,
in the absence of good sexuality education at school and at home are using porn as Their main sex educator,
which is really problematic because they think that sex equals all of those harmful behaviors.
(23:48):
You can imagine 13,
14,
12 year olds viewing pornography for the first time when they've never kissed anyone else,
they've never touched anyone else,
and that's their frame of reference.
They just don't have the capacity to just say,
well,
that's not probably what sex is.
It's in their mind then from then on and their mind and their brain is the most important sexual organ.
(24:10):
What would you want them to know about porn?
And what age would you start talking about that?
Just to bring that back a bit?
I'd like them to know more about human connection and relationships.
Positive,
respectful consensual,
amazing pleasurable experiences rather than knowing about porn.
So they can almost see the comical nature of it when they do see pornography.
(24:32):
They've got this um,
from reference of what a respectful,
amazing partnership and connection,
what I'd like them to know what I always say in parents sessions.
I ask the question,
what age do you think we should tell Children about pornography?
And the parents will answer our age 10,
11,
12,
13.
(24:52):
I think we should actually tell Children about pornography when they have access to the internet.
Now.
Of course,
you wouldn't tell a three year old about pornography,
but you would tell them that there's some harmful,
scary images on the internet.
That might give them the early warning signs moving up.
Your language increases.
And you say to the Children,
the internet is a fantastic thing.
But there are some images that give us our early warning signs that are harmful for things like war or cruelty to animals,
(25:18):
but there's also fake images of sex and naked people and then your language increases to when they're older to talk about.
There's depictions of sex and naked bodies on the internet and it's just it's fake and not realistic.
And you can say things like it's like a made up movie.
You know,
when you watch a movie and there's a driving scene and there's busses crashing and flames and cars speeding.
(25:42):
That's not really how you drive a car.
Well this thing on the internet called pornography,
which says that's what sex is,
that's not really what sex is,
they make it up.
So people will watch it and spend money on it.
Vanessa's observations on the conversations she has with parents really reflect the current discussion that we often hear around pornography and what to tell young people about it.
(26:13):
And her key message is that young people deserve comprehensive early sexuality education.
One of the reasons for this is so that pornography doesn't become the only source of education about sex available to them.
What I've found in researching for this podcast is that the topic of pornography and what we should say about it to Children is even more contentious than I thought.
(26:40):
It seems like.
It's actually pretty difficult for researchers to ask people directly about their experiences.
And I would expect that data around this would go out of date very quickly.
A compelling piece of research to promote conversations around sex and sexuality is the mind the gap research from e safety about the difference between what young people are experiencing online and what they're adults know about it.
(27:06):
It finds that 71% of 14 to 17 year olds have seen sexual pictures,
Yet only 34% of the adults knew about it.
There also seems to be academic contention around what even is considered pornographic.
And what type of porn are we talking about?
(27:27):
How is violence measured in pornography?
How is consent measured?
How is pleasure measured?
What practices are considered negative or not mainstream?
How are gender stereotypes measured adults comfortable with the idea that sex might be casual and fun rather than committed and loving?
(27:47):
How is harm measured from talking to young people in schools about this.
I know that they are reluctant to talk about anything sexual with their adults.
They're confident that their grownups wouldn't want them to see pornography,
but perhaps unable to articulate why apart from using the phrase,
it's inappropriate.
(28:08):
It's actually not inappropriate or unusual for young people to have questions about sex and sexuality as they go through puberty.
When we go into a class to speak about pornography,
I don't feel that it's our role to describe porn as good or bad.
It just is it's on the internet,
(28:29):
kids can find it,
it doesn't cost them anything.
They will need our help to understand the context and the content of pornography and figure out if they want to engage with it as they become adults.
Thanks so much to my guests,
Zara and Vanessa.
I'll put links to them both in the show notes and thanks to all the people working in this area trying to progress the discussion around pornography,
(28:59):
its effects uh and its context within society.
For more information about sexual health victoria go to S H vic dot org dot au.
For research,
information and resources on the safety,
go to e safety dot gov dot au.
I'll link to the research mind the gap in the show notes.
(29:19):
Also,
you can follow sexual health victoria on social media,
including instagram,
facebook twitter linkedin,
contact me directly at doing it at S H vik dot org dot au.
Thank you so much for listening.
this podcast is intended for an adult audience.
Take care if there might be young people listening.
Welcome to doing it.
This is a podcast to help parents carers and anyone working with young people understand relationships and sexuality education.
My name is anne.
I work with the sexual health victoria's schools and community team.
(00:29):
We deliver the Everybody Education program to school aged Children so they can better understand their own bodies.
Growing up respect consent reproduction,
sex,
sexual health and relationships.
This is episode six of a seven part series produced with the support of the East Safety Commissioner,
go back a few episodes if you miss them in the safety Best Practice framework for online safety education.
(00:56):
There is reference to Children's rights online.
They say that young people have the right to provision participation and protection in the digital world.
In this series,
I'm focusing on protection.
We understand that comprehensive relationships and sexuality education can be a protective factor for young people on or offline in this episode,
(01:20):
I want to understand more about pornography.
It doesn't seem unusual that young people would be interested in pictures of people doing sexy things.
What has changed dramatically since the advent of the internet is the accessibility of pornography and this increase of accessibility has led to greater volume and type of sexually explicit material available.
(01:49):
Young same sex attracted or gender diverse people might be uniquely interested given the lack of diversity in relationships represented in mainstream media.
We work with the definition that pornography is material that is designed to be sexually arousing and is created and distributed with the consent of all involved note that we won't be focusing on illegal sexual content such as child sexual abuse material in this episode?
(02:19):
So what is pornography?
And what should we tell our young people about it?
Doctors are a stardust is an activist researcher and socio legal scholar working in the intersections of sexuality,
technology and law.
She is currently working on a collaborative project with unesco about how automated content moderation practices impact sex education.
(02:46):
She also has experience in the sex work industry.
A common message we give in class is that online sex is different to sex in real life with a partner.
So is that true?
And what is the difference?
Thank you so much for speaking with me about sex and pornography.
(03:11):
So I'm delivering sex education classes frequently to young people and we often talk about pornography being for entertainment,
not for education.
What is the difference?
This is a really great question.
And it's actually something I get asked a lot.
And my first response is it's not necessarily an either or thing.
(03:32):
Porn is many things like porn is social porn is cultural porn is often political,
it's often artistic and it can be educative.
So it's many things to many people.
It does different kinds of cultural work in the world and it's not a monolith.
So there's different kinds of porn,
you know,
it's almost like asking is film,
(03:52):
education or entertainment?
And then the questions become,
well,
is it a documentary or is it news media or is it fantasy?
You know?
It depends.
And so I think sometimes this drive to limit porn as either entertainment or education or only entertainment or education.
Sometimes it stems from the history where pornography in and of itself is seen as so based that it needs to be redeemed by other forms of merit.
(04:19):
So for example,
we have this long history in Western countries in terms of our porn regulation from obscenity.
Lord classification laws where porn itself is seen as so unworthy of any legal protection unless it has,
say scientific merit or artistic merit or educational merit.
It's so based that it's not even protected by us freedom of speech.
(04:42):
So part of this is about porn stigma.
And so when people ask is porn educational entertainment.
In part,
my answer is,
well,
it can be both because porn is multifaceted and it depends on the producer and the performer and then the audience.
But I think the important thing to note is that pornography is true differently to other forms of entertainment.
(05:03):
So it's what we call exceptional lines,
people are less concerned that young people will learn violence when they watch Hollywood films,
but they presume that people are learning something from pornography.
And so then we have this very strict legal framework around the production,
the streaming,
the distribution and the sale of pornography much more so than other forms of media,
(05:27):
especially violent media.
And so many people working in pornography will say,
well,
it's totally disproportionate or their double standards and pornography shouldn't be expected to be a default form of sex education.
It shouldn't be expected to make up for the deficiencies of state population level sex education because that's up to governments to provide comprehensive curriculum.
(05:52):
Um and porn should be allowed to be fantasy.
It's a creative medium.
It can be experimental,
it can be fun.
It doesn't need to be realistic.
So then some of the critiques that get leveled out at pornography are often also contradictory to So On the one hand,
porn is critiqued for being unrealistic.
And then on the other,
it's often critiqued as being too realistic.
(06:13):
Like it's too graphic or it's too close.
And these contradictions traced back to attempts to differentiate art from pornography in the 18th century when we had photography come in and photography was seen as something that was too real.
It was too pornographic compared to say,
like a nude painting which which left something to the imagination.
(06:35):
So I think there's always like a class element to these questions like art or education,
Things that can be enjoyed by the middle classes.
Entertainment is something for the masses.
It's the popular culture.
Governments consistently worry that entertainment will be corruptive of population so that it seeks to restrict it,
especially as it becomes more democratized.
(06:57):
So we need to be mindful of some of these histories that tend to load these these questions of is it art or is it porn as if porn can't be artistic or is it entertainment or is it education?
Well it doesn't need to be in either or and so we should think well how does this question limit what porn can be and how does it fuel the regulatory environment as well?
(07:20):
And lastly I would add that it's important to point out that many producers are specifically making porn that is educative and there's been a big movement to make safer sex sexy or too eroticized condom use.
And we see this through many health promotion campaigns,
especially around HIV prevention.
Since the eighties,
we have really amazing examples of performers creating sites like Sex school in Berlin,
(07:45):
where there are performers getting together to make videos that are deliberately educative or we have sites like O.
M.
G.
S.
Which teach people techniques for masturbation.
Um And many performers themselves are essentially frontline responders to questions about sex education because consumers will be coming to their websites and disclosing many different personal problems and queries and and performers are responding based on their expertise.
(08:14):
There was a study by ERos association who found that in Australia,
79% of producers are now women,
50% of producers,
L.
G.
B.
T.
Q.
And a third of people in their survey switched between performer,
producer and director.
So people are performing multiple roles and it's really changing the kinds of things that are available.
(08:38):
And when you talk about rules and regulations,
you know,
in particularly we've got that 18 year old cut off and we know that doesn't really Does't work.
We know people under 18 are accessing pornography and are seeking answers to questions.
So there's a whole population of people between 16 and 18 who can consent to sex,
(09:00):
but who are not legally able to access pornographic content or sexually explicit media,
who are missing out on that kind of direct forms of sex education.
Um so yeah,
I think that it's it's really important to ensure that young people understand kind of the context of porn production and and are competent and literate in the kinds of conversations that are being,
(09:23):
have it happening at the public level and in the public sphere,
especially those being driven by pro we often talk about consent when we're talking about pornography production and it's made with the consent and distributed with the consent of all involved.
So what does consent look like in porn production?
This is a great question,
(09:44):
because consent is relevant at so many different stages in the process in production as well as in distribution,
like you say,
I think it's important to note that because now we have technology that's more affordable.
It's more intuitive,
it's more accessible.
Many more people can become producers themselves.
And so we have a lot of sex workers who have been largely in front of the camera before,
(10:08):
who are now stepping behind the camera and bringing the values and ethics back to production and really intervening in that space,
which is really exciting.
There's this big push,
especially among India producers,
feminist producers,
queer producers about having a collaborative ethics to how scenes are designed to begin with.
So it's less about having a hierarchical kind of top down or casting couch approach where the director descript something and the performers have to do it.
(10:37):
But really performers are becoming directors of their own scenes and the directors then just become facilitators of whatever the performers desires are.
And there's also a great focus now on informed consent.
So making sure there is full and frank disclosure about what the onset expectations are for performers before they arrive on the day.
(11:00):
So performers,
in my interviews,
I did interviews with korean feminist performers as part of my PhD and many spoke about wanting transparency about things like how long they're going to be required on set,
who their co stars are going to be because people want to be able to choose and refuse what kind of acts they're going to be expected to do.
(11:21):
Like do they need,
will they still get paid if they don't orgasm,
which is a really important question because sometimes there will be an expectation of orgasm and others do not take an orgasm centric focus and they'll just be paid for their time,
Whatever type of intimacy they choose to engage with.
So these types of things are important,
what they're going to get paid,
will they be expected to do behind the scenes interviews as well or just the content?
(11:45):
Will there be other people present on the set,
like other crew?
And now there's a big push from black indigenous performers and people of color to know what the name of the film will be in advance because it's been the experience of many people that they will film a scene and then later it will be titled with racial slurs or racist terminology.
(12:08):
And so people want to know up front in advance how a film is going to what kind of language it's going to be used in their marketing before they I consent to being involved?
And this also goes for performers wanting to be specific about the types of demographic and cultural and social descriptors that are used,
(12:29):
making sure that films use their pronouns and particular descriptors that they like to describe their body and having a say in those sorts of things that's really important.
Now,
also people want upfront information about the distribution.
So what's going to happen to their footage after the shoot?
How will it be edited?
And will they have any control or say over that?
(12:51):
Is it going to be just sold to anybody or will it be licensed to third parties?
Will the producers or directors have a policy in place to follow up where it inevitably gets Pirated?
Like what are they going to do about that?
And sometimes it's also about like whether they have policies on how to moderate comments on the sites,
like other comments gonna be moderated retroactively or does each comment have to be approved?
(13:15):
Because that makes that's an issue about safety for the performers on the site in terms of how people are speaking about their bodies and their content.
So these are all things that are important to know in advance and consent also happens in the recruitment phase as well.
So some smaller production companies will not actively recruit,
but they will just wait for performers to come to them.
(13:38):
Sometimes there's a vouching system by word of mouth.
They only want to work with people who self nominate and sometimes people will have cooling off periods as well to make sure that performers have a chance to think about all these things like the discriminatory impacts or the stigmatized impacts of the industry,
how it might impact your future employment or your family life or your child custody,
(14:03):
things like that.
So giving people an opportunity to really think and give informed and thoughtful and conscious consent.
I'll also add that consent culture is relates to people's sexual health decisions on set.
So we see a lot of legislation being proposed,
particularly in California about like mandatory condoms on set,
(14:26):
but many performers um prefer instead of mandatory sexual health provisions,
like mandatory condoms are mandatory testing.
They want to have choice over their risk reduction strategies.
So it's about making sure producers provide free and hypoallergenic and different options.
You know,
whether it's latex or non later gloves and dams and condoms for people to use also have options for sarah sorting if people are of different sexual health status is um,
(14:58):
some people will be on prep and some people will be on treatment as prevention.
So they will have an undetectable viral load,
which means they can't transmit HIV.
Some p people will also want to have covid safe sets and so they will design a scene where like they avoid the face to face kinds of contact and they choose a different activity.
(15:18):
So all of these things are really should be up to performers to negotiate together and then supported and facilitated by the producers and the directors um,
consent then also after the shoot relates to what happens to the product itself.
So will performance be paid a flat fee or are they going to have a percentage of the royalties.
(15:44):
Um,
and how often will that get paid or will they have like joint joint ownership of the product And then they get to make decisions together with the directors and producers about where it gets sold and where it gets screened.
So they'll have a bit more control in those circumstances.
Or will it be like a trade for content where they will trade their performance and then obtain a copy of the film that they can then monetize on their own websites.
(16:06):
All those different models are things that performers need to think about in terms of informed consent before,
before the shoot.
And then lastly,
I would say that consent is often depicted now or more frequently depicted as part of the process of the film.
And many feminist and queer performers are making a really big effort to shoot behind the scenes interviews with people like before the shoots after the shoots.
(16:34):
Also include all of those like mid scene check ins and those kind of awkward moments that in the past may have just been edited out.
Um,
making sure they shoot if performers raise things where something feels uncomfortable or they need to change positions or somebody had slipped on the loop or the condom doesn't fit or all those sorts of things.
(16:54):
Even like after the shoot,
talking about well what went well and what didn't go well like having a debrief and then people will also want to talk about what things they like and what things they don't like in advance.
And more often producers are shooting these conversations so people will raise things like,
well I'm on antidepressant medication at the moment.
(17:16):
So that impacts my libido in these ways.
I really like this kind of vibration,
but I don't like this type of pressure and filming those conversations is a really great intervention into having a more overt kind of consent culture on set.
So interesting.
I imagine it's difficult as a consumer and especially as you say,
(17:36):
a lot of content is stolen and that's what people are viewing,
particularly young people like how do they tell?
How do they become discerning consumers and figure out if all those things have happened?
Yes,
that's a really great question.
James lee who's a gender queer performer over in California has a great article on that around the ethics of paying for your porn but also talks consumers through things to look out for.
(18:03):
And often it's about listening to the conversations and the blogs and the blogs that performers are putting out where they give their own testimonials about what,
what companies that have had good experiences with or not.
And it's also about looking to those companies themselves,
looking at their mission statements and their ethics and transparency statements on their website about their policies in regard to these issues.
(18:27):
So yeah,
there is a big push for ethical consumption in pornography.
Absolutely.
And what would you want young people to know about pornography?
I want young people to understand the political economy of how porn is made.
And it's important to know that aggregate porn sites,
tube sites often have very exploitative practices,
(18:49):
especially around acquiring content and porn hub is a notorious example of this.
So people usually go to porn hub as the example of what pornography is available for young people,
but it's a monopoly.
It's Pirated,
much content.
It brought up all of many production and distribution studios to become like really dominating force in that space.
(19:12):
And it has not always had really great policies around supporting and paying for the work of independent producers.
So it's really important to um to keep that in mind.
And then the last thing I'll say is that I think young people and any consumer really should be invested in sex worker rights and know that the performance themselves are humans.
(19:35):
They're people who deserve occupation,
health and safety.
Young people should be able to understand the context in which point is produced,
even if they can't access their content and then have the tools to be able to navigate the media and the public debate so that they can critically engage with some of those narratives that circulate.
(19:56):
Thank you so much.
It's my pleasure.
Thanks so much for having me,
Sarah mentioned at one point that young people may be legally allowed to have sexual relationships,
yet have different restrictions when it comes to watching pornography.
Many Children who access pornography are not legally physically,
(20:19):
socially or emotionally ready for sex without open conversation and education.
Children might not know much about sexual decision making,
let alone sourcing ethical porn.
It's a strong argument for providing relationships and sexuality education to students in order that they make ethical choices which are right for them as they become sexually active.
(20:45):
Vanessa Hambleton is the founder of talking the talk sexuality education.
She frequently speaks to parents and carers about sexuality education and hears their concerns about pornography firsthand,
Vanessa,
thank you so much for speaking with me.
It's an absolute pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
(21:06):
We're talking about pornography in this episode,
and I know that's something that you speak with adults about in relation to their Children.
So,
when you do speak to adults,
what sort of thing are they worried about?
Interesting question.
When I speak to parents concerning lee,
I don't think they're worried enough to be honest.
(21:28):
And I for find that when I give them the statistics about what the content is and the impact it has on their Children and the young ages that Children are accessing pornography,
it's then that they really start to worry,
because I think in a way they have put it,
it's a bit too hard and it's in the too hard basket.
But then on the other hand,
there is always a cohort of parents who've had experiences where their Children have accessed it,
(21:52):
and they tell me stories of significant impact and harm on their young Children.
And the things they're worried about is the inaccuracies of it,
and the fact that it,
number one,
it's them seeing sex in inverted commas number two,
that they do get the inclination that it isn't reflective of typical respectful relationships.
(22:15):
Um and most importantly,
they do have that sense that it is having a huge impact visually on the Children and that they're seeking it out.
They hear about the fact that kids look at it,
but each individual parent really needs to think about their own family.
And is it impacting on their child?
What is the difference between a young person seeing pornography and an adult?
(22:38):
What is a young person?
So,
to me,
Children are under 17 and under,
and I think it's different for all the different age groups,
broadly speaking,
though.
I think um it's not so much of a problem of Children seeing human sexual contact,
because after all,
that's just a typical normal human experience.
(23:00):
The problem is that it's not just nakedness and nudity,
it's um telling young people that sex involves violent depictions of choking,
gagging,
lack of consent,
no sexual communication fake bodies power and control.
So,
the difference is an adult can is not a novice,
(23:23):
A young person is a novice and an adult is able hopefully to decipher the differences of the messaging in this sexual contact.
Whereas we understand that young Children,
in the absence of good sexuality education at school and at home are using porn as Their main sex educator,
which is really problematic because they think that sex equals all of those harmful behaviors.
(23:48):
You can imagine 13,
14,
12 year olds viewing pornography for the first time when they've never kissed anyone else,
they've never touched anyone else,
and that's their frame of reference.
They just don't have the capacity to just say,
well,
that's not probably what sex is.
It's in their mind then from then on and their mind and their brain is the most important sexual organ.
(24:10):
What would you want them to know about porn?
And what age would you start talking about that?
Just to bring that back a bit?
I'd like them to know more about human connection and relationships.
Positive,
respectful consensual,
amazing pleasurable experiences rather than knowing about porn.
So they can almost see the comical nature of it when they do see pornography.
(24:32):
They've got this um,
from reference of what a respectful,
amazing partnership and connection,
what I'd like them to know what I always say in parents sessions.
I ask the question,
what age do you think we should tell Children about pornography?
And the parents will answer our age 10,
11,
12,
13.
(24:52):
I think we should actually tell Children about pornography when they have access to the internet.
Now.
Of course,
you wouldn't tell a three year old about pornography,
but you would tell them that there's some harmful,
scary images on the internet.
That might give them the early warning signs moving up.
Your language increases.
And you say to the Children,
the internet is a fantastic thing.
But there are some images that give us our early warning signs that are harmful for things like war or cruelty to animals,
(25:18):
but there's also fake images of sex and naked people and then your language increases to when they're older to talk about.
There's depictions of sex and naked bodies on the internet and it's just it's fake and not realistic.
And you can say things like it's like a made up movie.
You know,
when you watch a movie and there's a driving scene and there's busses crashing and flames and cars speeding.
(25:42):
That's not really how you drive a car.
Well this thing on the internet called pornography,
which says that's what sex is,
that's not really what sex is,
they make it up.
So people will watch it and spend money on it.
Vanessa's observations on the conversations she has with parents really reflect the current discussion that we often hear around pornography and what to tell young people about it.
(26:13):
And her key message is that young people deserve comprehensive early sexuality education.
One of the reasons for this is so that pornography doesn't become the only source of education about sex available to them.
What I've found in researching for this podcast is that the topic of pornography and what we should say about it to Children is even more contentious than I thought.
(26:40):
It seems like.
It's actually pretty difficult for researchers to ask people directly about their experiences.
And I would expect that data around this would go out of date very quickly.
A compelling piece of research to promote conversations around sex and sexuality is the mind the gap research from e safety about the difference between what young people are experiencing online and what they're adults know about it.
(27:06):
It finds that 71% of 14 to 17 year olds have seen sexual pictures,
Yet only 34% of the adults knew about it.
There also seems to be academic contention around what even is considered pornographic.
And what type of porn are we talking about?
(27:27):
How is violence measured in pornography?
How is consent measured?
How is pleasure measured?
What practices are considered negative or not mainstream?
How are gender stereotypes measured adults comfortable with the idea that sex might be casual and fun rather than committed and loving?
(27:47):
How is harm measured from talking to young people in schools about this.
I know that they are reluctant to talk about anything sexual with their adults.
They're confident that their grownups wouldn't want them to see pornography,
but perhaps unable to articulate why apart from using the phrase,
it's inappropriate.
(28:08):
It's actually not inappropriate or unusual for young people to have questions about sex and sexuality as they go through puberty.
When we go into a class to speak about pornography,
I don't feel that it's our role to describe porn as good or bad.
It just is it's on the internet,
(28:29):
kids can find it,
it doesn't cost them anything.
They will need our help to understand the context and the content of pornography and figure out if they want to engage with it as they become adults.
Thanks so much to my guests,
Zara and Vanessa.
I'll put links to them both in the show notes and thanks to all the people working in this area trying to progress the discussion around pornography,
(28:59):
its effects uh and its context within society.
For more information about sexual health victoria go to S H vic dot org dot au.
For research,
information and resources on the safety,
go to e safety dot gov dot au.
I'll link to the research mind the gap in the show notes.
(29:19):
Also,
you can follow sexual health victoria on social media,
including instagram,
facebook twitter linkedin,
contact me directly at doing it at S H vik dot org dot au.
Thank you so much for listening.
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