July 28, 2022 • 21 mins
In this episode, chair of Intersex Human Rights Dr Agli Zavros-Orr speaks of their advocacy work and their lived experience as a person born with an intersex variation. Young people often ask us how bodies can be different. Agli helps explain the diversity of human sex characteristics.
Resources:
See more at Intersex Human Rights Australia. Find Agli’s research at research gate.
See book Raising Rosie for families.
For more about SHV @ shvic.org.au.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This podcast contains discussion about adult topics.
Use your judgment if there are little ears around,
Welcome to doing it.
This is a podcast made by sexual health victoria.
We run a whole lot of education programs for communities and medical professionals across victoria.
We also run sexual health clinics in the city and Box Hill in Melbourne.
(00:21):
My name is Anne and I'm part of the sexual health victorious schools and community team.
We go to schools and run classes for all year levels on bodies growing up,
puberty,
sex,
reproduction and relationships.
This podcast is for parents and carers of school aged Children so that we can share what goes on in a relationships and sexuality education class and help support these sorts of conversations at home.
(00:46):
Today,
I'll be talking to Dr Uglies Averroes or who is a Doctor of Education,
working in the area of intersex human rights and education.
They are currently a lecturer at Federation University.
Agli has a wealth of educational experience and is also generous with sharing their lived experience of being born with an intersex variation and not knowing this until they were 17.
(01:11):
It's so useful for educators to understand more about intersex variations and the diversity of human sex characteristics.
Hearing Agli speak about their own experience is a reminder for me of the limited way I was taught about bodies and how much has changed and how much this can be expanded Dr Uglies Averroes or thank you so much for speaking with me.
(01:37):
Pleasure.
My first question for you is could you please explain what the word.
Intersex means.
I will have a go.
It's a complex word and it's got some history and it's contested.
But intersex basically refers is an umbrella term that refers to people who are born with a variation in sex characteristics.
(02:00):
So sex characteristics could be primary or secondary.
So for moms and dads out there,
that means internal sexual parts like um gonads or gonads can become ovaries or testes.
You know,
that can be seen.
It develop into either ovaries or testes,
(02:20):
um hormones.
Um And that's really important because hormones change in our Children from birth right through to puberty and then into um adulthood.
So knowing about hormones in the body is really important.
So intersects focuses on the variations in hormones and hormone production in the body,
(02:40):
But also secondary sex characteristics.
So art would appear appearance.
So um in terms of breast um hair,
but not necessarily the same for everyone,
intersex looks different for different individuals as well,
because there are 40 variations and probably more.
(03:01):
We can't say that one child will look the same as another.
Yeah.
So in that instance,
we need to look at the individual work with the medical team and understand um the child's variation.
And that's really important for parents to know that if they do find out and when they find out that their child has an intersex variation that they need to access someone or a doctor who knows what is happening.
(03:30):
Um And doctors are not always the best people,
but it's really important to also link with the community,
because we can link you to professionals who have um knowledge about the different variations and they can support parents to make really good decisions.
So intersex is an umbrella term.
(03:51):
Um,
and that's really important to know.
Also it's important to know that intersects is not an identity.
Yeah,
it's not a sex identity or a sexual identity.
People see the I in L.
G.
B.
T.
Q.
I A.
Plus,
but it's therefore more activist work and advocacy work because of the and we'll talk about that a little bit later.
(04:14):
But in terms of the experiences that people have.
And so we have people who maybe who may identify with L.
G.
B.
T.
Q.
A.
Plus,
but may we may also have people who are heterosexual.
Yeah.
And so understanding intersects as more about the physical self and the development of the physical self both in utero and across the lifespan is really important and it's really important for parents to know that um,
(04:44):
they may not even know that their child has intersects.
The child may find out that they're intersects later on in life.
They might not even find out.
They might just live normally and never find out that they're intersects.
So it's really important to challenge existing assumptions about what is intersects and really understand the physical body and how it develops both in utero and then across the lifespan.
(05:10):
So the way I would often explain bodies and gender is to say to young people that when a baby is born,
if a doctor sees these body parts,
they're probably going to say it's male.
If they see these body parts,
they're probably going to say it's female.
So that might not be true for all babies and all people and that it's not necessarily a diagnosis or a label that can be given to a baby.
(05:36):
So it shouldn't be a diagnosis that's given to a baby because the baby needs to be given every chance to thrive to be welcomed into the family to be loved,
acknowledged and then for a conversation to start.
So if the child does have ambiguous genitalia or may have a variation that is urgent and needs surgery,
(05:58):
a conversation needs to start.
But there's no urgency.
You know,
you don't have to operate right at that moment in time.
And historically that's been the case.
The pressure has been to do something straight up.
Um and not to give the family and the babies time to just be just to settle into being a family.
(06:21):
We found through um anecdotal data that there's not really urgent.
There are few very few cases where it's really urgent and then and that's when there is fusion in the internal tissue that can lead to um infections.
Um and so forth.
Yeah.
(06:41):
You know,
in most cases you can give time yeah to breathe to get the information to talk to experts to talk to people with lived experience and then understand what that means.
Yeah.
So but yeah it is historic.
Um There is this assumption that when we notice a child's uh baby's genitalia,
(07:05):
we make assumptions and there's a measure that doctors use the kilometer which they measure the clitoris and they measure the penis and they make a decision on that.
Historically they've made decisions on that.
And in some cases they still do about then um a cosmetic operation to reduce the size of the clitoris.
(07:28):
So it looks normal and then or you know or to decide whether to do a bit more investigation decide oh well could we turn the clitoris into a penis?
So decisions like that are made.
You know if sometimes if the penis is you know not clearly defined.
Nable.
All those sorts of decisions are made in a rush.
(07:50):
So what I say to parents is take some time to breathe,
hug your baby,
welcome them into the world.
You know acknowledge who they are as a person in their own right and then start a conversation and find out what your options are.
You mentioned 40 different types of variation.
Could you give us an example of a type of variation?
(08:13):
Absolutely.
So the most common one is known as client filter which is mostly it's X.
X.
Y.
And that's often linked to hormones.
Um And often it's not just men who experiences as women with client filters.
And there's also moses is um which is a combination.
(08:33):
So you might have X.
X.
Y.
And X.
Y.
Or X.
X.
Y.
X.
Oh there's so many variations.
The chromosomes just play havoc in the body.
So knowing the facts is really important because then,
you know how hormones will be produced.
And then if there is a need for hormone replacement or if you need to wait because sometimes jumping into a hormone replacement regime can cause other issues that then cause other problems for the child.
(09:05):
Um And so it's really important that waiting time is really important and those chromosome allow and hormonal changes can affect puberty and that sometimes when people find out that there's a difference.
So one of the things,
so I'm Xy.
So um and most people will think,
oh xy that's male.
(09:25):
I've always been taught in biology class X.
Y.
Is male.
Well I'm xy female.
So that challenges the stereotype in a sense and begins a different conversation.
I didn't know that I was intersex until I was a teenager,
um 17 years of age and I hadn't had my period.
It was a situation of then um my parents.
(09:48):
Um and I looked fairly flat.
Um now breast development,
so the secondary sex characteristics weren't there,
so but I was living quite happily,
You know,
my body was functioning quite well.
It didn't need to be interfered with,
but there was a cultural expectation that the female body needs to behave in a particular way.
(10:10):
So then the process was about fixing fixing the body to be more of what it needs to be to be able to function in certain ways.
And so it's really important.
Um,
this is why I said it's really important to wait.
Even at that later stage in life,
(10:30):
it would have been good um,
to have waited.
And my,
I've talked to my mom and my mom has said,
you know,
um,
when we left you at the hospital,
we wish we could have come back and take a new home.
And in that instance,
I thought that's really interesting.
So what's happening in the medical system that's not giving parents time to think about their options and to ask questions.
(10:53):
So there's something that we need to address.
Think about gender a little bit different.
I think just thinking about bodies differently because I think if you mix gender into it,
it gets caught into a conversation about fixing the body to represent the gender the parents want.
And there's there's cultural research around that where parents want a boy or parents want a girl.
(11:19):
And sometimes a surgery that's performed is based on what the parents want.
And sometimes this happens across different cultures,
especially when there is a pressure to have a boy.
Um,
and we know from research that often if there is a pressure in the family to have a boy and the doctors can perform cosmetic surgery to turn the body to make it look more masculine.
(11:43):
They will do that.
Yeah.
And so this is where we need to have this conversation about,
it's not about gender,
it's not about sexuality,
it's about the body.
Yeah.
So for me,
I always go back to the body.
The innate characteristics of the body.
We all have innate characteristics.
Red hair,
blue eyes,
(12:04):
tall,
short,
more rounded,
you know,
slimmer,
you know,
different sized hand,
different size feet.
So it's really important to just see the body as a complex system to learn about the body and then to figure out how to take care of that body.
Has history been kind to people with intersex variations.
(12:25):
Absolutely not.
So,
it's hidden.
So,
it's a pleasure to be here talking with you about this and to educate our parents about what that means.
Because often when it's identified that the baby is intersex,
it's it's hushed.
It's,
you know,
we'll deal with this,
we'll sort it out.
(12:45):
And so there's an element of secrecy and shame that happens.
And so this is also experienced by the family because they don't want to face their loved ones,
their extended family community and to say,
oh,
we did tell you that we're having a girl,
but we're not quite sure anymore.
So it's,
(13:05):
you know,
there's a lot of,
you know,
shaming that happens around this.
So,
you know,
often it's hushed often Children aren't told.
Um often there is scarring,
especially if the surgery and you know,
it's just explained away as you might have had an appendix or appendicitis or you just had a hernia that had to be,
(13:27):
you know,
also sorts of things have been told.
And then we find that,
you know,
the Children grow up,
they become more aware of their bodies.
Um and then they start asking questions and that's when trouble starts because then they know they've been lied to.
They know that they haven't been told the truth about their bodies.
So then they start,
(13:48):
there's this um disconnection with the family.
And so we get um young people,
you know,
pulling away from the family and that puts them at risk at risk of,
you know,
other sorts of things happening to them engaging in drugs or risk behaviors,
etcetera.
So it's taking care of Children from the start.
(14:09):
Finding ways to talk about bodies from the start in meaningful ways is really important for safety.
Um intersex bodies were lucky in Australia,
in a sense that we've got a much more um aware society,
but in some parts of the world that's infanticide,
where babies are killed,
(14:30):
um where some babies are put into the sex trade and things like that.
So it's really important to,
and the work that we do is global.
It's not just local,
but we do have,
you know,
sort of we are a multicultural society and there's a lot of things happening in spaces that we don't see.
(14:50):
So the work that we do is about raising awareness and to bring people forward in that so that we can be kinder on those bodies because they have existed as long as there have been people walking the planet intersects is not new intersects variations are not did not just come up overnight.
They've been with us since the beginning and you can see people in history who are have had leadership roles,
(15:16):
who have been in some cultures even acknowledged that having um special powers or status.
But something's happened,
especially in the Western cultures where we've actually suppressed that vary those knowledge about those variations,
You know,
the trauma,
the pathology.
(15:37):
Ization,
the discrimination,
the lies all of that have been unkind to bodies with an intersex variation.
And so what we're finding is now is trying to engage with everyone to get support for a group in the population that have been traumatized.
(15:58):
Um and it affects the health and well being.
Um it affects employability or the capacity to be to have finished school.
So one of the things we know from research is that because of when operations happen,
um They may not complete school.
Um They may come back in later years,
but we know it impacts on their schooling experience,
(16:19):
then it impacts on their opportunities to have employment opportunities to earn an income to then access the hormones that they need to access or additional surgery they need it.
So there's a whole lot of flow on consequences.
Um So yeah history hasn't been kind and it continues to be so but things are changing.
(16:42):
You've mentioned a few areas that would encompass advocacy.
But what does your advocacy work look like?
And when you say intersects human rights.
So we focus on the human rights perspective because that shifts it away from gender and sexuality to look at the rights of bodies to be belong and become.
(17:03):
And I draw on that as an early childhood educator as well where I strongly believe that bodies have a right to be to become and to belong.
And so if we work from that premise um it's really important the work that we do at this point is legislative A.
C.
T.
Has introduced new legislation um about um stopping unnecessary surgeries on babies victoria is leading the way in a lot of areas which did inform the A.
(17:35):
C.
T.
Work I must say.
But they seem to have gotten in.
But the legislation is moving fast and this is happening across the country.
The Human Rights Commission has written a report which clearly articulates some of the things that I've talked to you about.
So the advocacy work is about stopping what we're doing to babies to thinking about what it is that we intend to do but to also wait until a time when we can engage in a conversation with Children about what they want to happen to their bodies.
(18:11):
And this is when we talk about informed personal consent.
So,
for them to know what is happening to them and why it's happening and for them to have a say,
say,
no mom,
I don't want that.
Can we wait?
Sure.
And there's a lovely book called raising Rosie.
It tells a story of a family of a ch baby which ch is congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
(18:37):
Um and they knew the baby was going to be born with an intersex variation.
But what they did was they stepped in with a mindset of welcoming the baby in the first instance,
being informed about the child's variation.
And then taking it slowly a step at a time,
waiting for Rosie to grow up and to be aware of their body and to have a say.
(19:02):
So,
there's a model there of what to do.
How can intersex people be better represented in educational spaces?
I think the most important thing is to for us to talk about bodies.
It's already in the curriculum in health and physical education,
but I think we need to step away from just talking about sex,
(19:24):
gender and sexuality,
to talking about bodies and body diversities,
because this affects not just one group,
it's across all groups,
but it's important that we know about intersex bodies because we also might grow up heterosexual,
but then have an intersex baby.
(19:45):
So,
it's not just for now for the people that were educate the Children,
we're educating,
but it's for them as adults when they have their own baby.
So we need to rethink what is the purpose of education?
Why is it that we're talking about bodies?
Why is it that we're trying to understand bodies better and then to set up a process and a praxis that shifts our conversation and I think that's really important.
(20:13):
That's so fantastic.
Thank you so much for speaking with me.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Some really key things which stood out for me in this discussion.
Intersex is not an identity,
it's not new,
and it's often misunderstood.
Agli taught me the word endo sex.
(20:35):
It means someone's physical sex characteristics match what is expected from males and females.
It's the opposite to intersex.
There are over 40 different intersex variations.
Individuals and families often feel shame around the experience of having intersex variations.
(21:00):
A really good place to find out more is intersex human rights Australia.
I'll link to that in the show notes.
You can see Uglies research at Research Gate.
I'll also put a link for that.
Agli mentioned a book.
It's for families called raising rosie.
For more information about sexual health victoria.
You can go to dot org dot au.
(21:20):
You can follow us on instagram facebook twitter linkedin.
You can contact me directly at doing it at S H vik dot org dot au.
It's a great idea to subscribe to the podcast like it if you like it,
share it if you can,
thank you so much for listening.
This podcast contains discussion about adult topics.
Use your judgment if there are little ears around,
Welcome to doing it.
This is a podcast made by sexual health victoria.
We run a whole lot of education programs for communities and medical professionals across victoria.
We also run sexual health clinics in the city and Box Hill in Melbourne.
(00:21):
My name is Anne and I'm part of the sexual health victorious schools and community team.
We go to schools and run classes for all year levels on bodies growing up,
puberty,
sex,
reproduction and relationships.
This podcast is for parents and carers of school aged Children so that we can share what goes on in a relationships and sexuality education class and help support these sorts of conversations at home.
(00:46):
Today,
I'll be talking to Dr Uglies Averroes or who is a Doctor of Education,
working in the area of intersex human rights and education.
They are currently a lecturer at Federation University.
Agli has a wealth of educational experience and is also generous with sharing their lived experience of being born with an intersex variation and not knowing this until they were 17.
(01:11):
It's so useful for educators to understand more about intersex variations and the diversity of human sex characteristics.
Hearing Agli speak about their own experience is a reminder for me of the limited way I was taught about bodies and how much has changed and how much this can be expanded Dr Uglies Averroes or thank you so much for speaking with me.
(01:37):
Pleasure.
My first question for you is could you please explain what the word.
Intersex means.
I will have a go.
It's a complex word and it's got some history and it's contested.
But intersex basically refers is an umbrella term that refers to people who are born with a variation in sex characteristics.
(02:00):
So sex characteristics could be primary or secondary.
So for moms and dads out there,
that means internal sexual parts like um gonads or gonads can become ovaries or testes.
You know,
that can be seen.
It develop into either ovaries or testes,
(02:20):
um hormones.
Um And that's really important because hormones change in our Children from birth right through to puberty and then into um adulthood.
So knowing about hormones in the body is really important.
So intersects focuses on the variations in hormones and hormone production in the body,
(02:40):
But also secondary sex characteristics.
So art would appear appearance.
So um in terms of breast um hair,
but not necessarily the same for everyone,
intersex looks different for different individuals as well,
because there are 40 variations and probably more.
(03:01):
We can't say that one child will look the same as another.
Yeah.
So in that instance,
we need to look at the individual work with the medical team and understand um the child's variation.
And that's really important for parents to know that if they do find out and when they find out that their child has an intersex variation that they need to access someone or a doctor who knows what is happening.
(03:30):
Um And doctors are not always the best people,
but it's really important to also link with the community,
because we can link you to professionals who have um knowledge about the different variations and they can support parents to make really good decisions.
So intersex is an umbrella term.
(03:51):
Um,
and that's really important to know.
Also it's important to know that intersects is not an identity.
Yeah,
it's not a sex identity or a sexual identity.
People see the I in L.
G.
B.
T.
Q.
I A.
Plus,
but it's therefore more activist work and advocacy work because of the and we'll talk about that a little bit later.
(04:14):
But in terms of the experiences that people have.
And so we have people who maybe who may identify with L.
G.
B.
T.
Q.
A.
Plus,
but may we may also have people who are heterosexual.
Yeah.
And so understanding intersects as more about the physical self and the development of the physical self both in utero and across the lifespan is really important and it's really important for parents to know that um,
(04:44):
they may not even know that their child has intersects.
The child may find out that they're intersects later on in life.
They might not even find out.
They might just live normally and never find out that they're intersects.
So it's really important to challenge existing assumptions about what is intersects and really understand the physical body and how it develops both in utero and then across the lifespan.
(05:10):
So the way I would often explain bodies and gender is to say to young people that when a baby is born,
if a doctor sees these body parts,
they're probably going to say it's male.
If they see these body parts,
they're probably going to say it's female.
So that might not be true for all babies and all people and that it's not necessarily a diagnosis or a label that can be given to a baby.
(05:36):
So it shouldn't be a diagnosis that's given to a baby because the baby needs to be given every chance to thrive to be welcomed into the family to be loved,
acknowledged and then for a conversation to start.
So if the child does have ambiguous genitalia or may have a variation that is urgent and needs surgery,
(05:58):
a conversation needs to start.
But there's no urgency.
You know,
you don't have to operate right at that moment in time.
And historically that's been the case.
The pressure has been to do something straight up.
Um and not to give the family and the babies time to just be just to settle into being a family.
(06:21):
We found through um anecdotal data that there's not really urgent.
There are few very few cases where it's really urgent and then and that's when there is fusion in the internal tissue that can lead to um infections.
Um and so forth.
Yeah.
(06:41):
You know,
in most cases you can give time yeah to breathe to get the information to talk to experts to talk to people with lived experience and then understand what that means.
Yeah.
So but yeah it is historic.
Um There is this assumption that when we notice a child's uh baby's genitalia,
(07:05):
we make assumptions and there's a measure that doctors use the kilometer which they measure the clitoris and they measure the penis and they make a decision on that.
Historically they've made decisions on that.
And in some cases they still do about then um a cosmetic operation to reduce the size of the clitoris.
(07:28):
So it looks normal and then or you know or to decide whether to do a bit more investigation decide oh well could we turn the clitoris into a penis?
So decisions like that are made.
You know if sometimes if the penis is you know not clearly defined.
Nable.
All those sorts of decisions are made in a rush.
(07:50):
So what I say to parents is take some time to breathe,
hug your baby,
welcome them into the world.
You know acknowledge who they are as a person in their own right and then start a conversation and find out what your options are.
You mentioned 40 different types of variation.
Could you give us an example of a type of variation?
(08:13):
Absolutely.
So the most common one is known as client filter which is mostly it's X.
X.
Y.
And that's often linked to hormones.
Um And often it's not just men who experiences as women with client filters.
And there's also moses is um which is a combination.
(08:33):
So you might have X.
X.
Y.
And X.
Y.
Or X.
X.
Y.
X.
Oh there's so many variations.
The chromosomes just play havoc in the body.
So knowing the facts is really important because then,
you know how hormones will be produced.
And then if there is a need for hormone replacement or if you need to wait because sometimes jumping into a hormone replacement regime can cause other issues that then cause other problems for the child.
(09:05):
Um And so it's really important that waiting time is really important and those chromosome allow and hormonal changes can affect puberty and that sometimes when people find out that there's a difference.
So one of the things,
so I'm Xy.
So um and most people will think,
oh xy that's male.
(09:25):
I've always been taught in biology class X.
Y.
Is male.
Well I'm xy female.
So that challenges the stereotype in a sense and begins a different conversation.
I didn't know that I was intersex until I was a teenager,
um 17 years of age and I hadn't had my period.
It was a situation of then um my parents.
(09:48):
Um and I looked fairly flat.
Um now breast development,
so the secondary sex characteristics weren't there,
so but I was living quite happily,
You know,
my body was functioning quite well.
It didn't need to be interfered with,
but there was a cultural expectation that the female body needs to behave in a particular way.
(10:10):
So then the process was about fixing fixing the body to be more of what it needs to be to be able to function in certain ways.
And so it's really important.
Um,
this is why I said it's really important to wait.
Even at that later stage in life,
(10:30):
it would have been good um,
to have waited.
And my,
I've talked to my mom and my mom has said,
you know,
um,
when we left you at the hospital,
we wish we could have come back and take a new home.
And in that instance,
I thought that's really interesting.
So what's happening in the medical system that's not giving parents time to think about their options and to ask questions.
(10:53):
So there's something that we need to address.
Think about gender a little bit different.
I think just thinking about bodies differently because I think if you mix gender into it,
it gets caught into a conversation about fixing the body to represent the gender the parents want.
And there's there's cultural research around that where parents want a boy or parents want a girl.
(11:19):
And sometimes a surgery that's performed is based on what the parents want.
And sometimes this happens across different cultures,
especially when there is a pressure to have a boy.
Um,
and we know from research that often if there is a pressure in the family to have a boy and the doctors can perform cosmetic surgery to turn the body to make it look more masculine.
(11:43):
They will do that.
Yeah.
And so this is where we need to have this conversation about,
it's not about gender,
it's not about sexuality,
it's about the body.
Yeah.
So for me,
I always go back to the body.
The innate characteristics of the body.
We all have innate characteristics.
Red hair,
blue eyes,
(12:04):
tall,
short,
more rounded,
you know,
slimmer,
you know,
different sized hand,
different size feet.
So it's really important to just see the body as a complex system to learn about the body and then to figure out how to take care of that body.
Has history been kind to people with intersex variations.
(12:25):
Absolutely not.
So,
it's hidden.
So,
it's a pleasure to be here talking with you about this and to educate our parents about what that means.
Because often when it's identified that the baby is intersex,
it's it's hushed.
It's,
you know,
we'll deal with this,
we'll sort it out.
(12:45):
And so there's an element of secrecy and shame that happens.
And so this is also experienced by the family because they don't want to face their loved ones,
their extended family community and to say,
oh,
we did tell you that we're having a girl,
but we're not quite sure anymore.
So it's,
(13:05):
you know,
there's a lot of,
you know,
shaming that happens around this.
So,
you know,
often it's hushed often Children aren't told.
Um often there is scarring,
especially if the surgery and you know,
it's just explained away as you might have had an appendix or appendicitis or you just had a hernia that had to be,
(13:27):
you know,
also sorts of things have been told.
And then we find that,
you know,
the Children grow up,
they become more aware of their bodies.
Um and then they start asking questions and that's when trouble starts because then they know they've been lied to.
They know that they haven't been told the truth about their bodies.
So then they start,
(13:48):
there's this um disconnection with the family.
And so we get um young people,
you know,
pulling away from the family and that puts them at risk at risk of,
you know,
other sorts of things happening to them engaging in drugs or risk behaviors,
etcetera.
So it's taking care of Children from the start.
(14:09):
Finding ways to talk about bodies from the start in meaningful ways is really important for safety.
Um intersex bodies were lucky in Australia,
in a sense that we've got a much more um aware society,
but in some parts of the world that's infanticide,
where babies are killed,
(14:30):
um where some babies are put into the sex trade and things like that.
So it's really important to,
and the work that we do is global.
It's not just local,
but we do have,
you know,
sort of we are a multicultural society and there's a lot of things happening in spaces that we don't see.
(14:50):
So the work that we do is about raising awareness and to bring people forward in that so that we can be kinder on those bodies because they have existed as long as there have been people walking the planet intersects is not new intersects variations are not did not just come up overnight.
They've been with us since the beginning and you can see people in history who are have had leadership roles,
(15:16):
who have been in some cultures even acknowledged that having um special powers or status.
But something's happened,
especially in the Western cultures where we've actually suppressed that vary those knowledge about those variations,
You know,
the trauma,
the pathology.
(15:37):
Ization,
the discrimination,
the lies all of that have been unkind to bodies with an intersex variation.
And so what we're finding is now is trying to engage with everyone to get support for a group in the population that have been traumatized.
(15:58):
Um and it affects the health and well being.
Um it affects employability or the capacity to be to have finished school.
So one of the things we know from research is that because of when operations happen,
um They may not complete school.
Um They may come back in later years,
but we know it impacts on their schooling experience,
(16:19):
then it impacts on their opportunities to have employment opportunities to earn an income to then access the hormones that they need to access or additional surgery they need it.
So there's a whole lot of flow on consequences.
Um So yeah history hasn't been kind and it continues to be so but things are changing.
(16:42):
You've mentioned a few areas that would encompass advocacy.
But what does your advocacy work look like?
And when you say intersects human rights.
So we focus on the human rights perspective because that shifts it away from gender and sexuality to look at the rights of bodies to be belong and become.
(17:03):
And I draw on that as an early childhood educator as well where I strongly believe that bodies have a right to be to become and to belong.
And so if we work from that premise um it's really important the work that we do at this point is legislative A.
C.
T.
Has introduced new legislation um about um stopping unnecessary surgeries on babies victoria is leading the way in a lot of areas which did inform the A.
(17:35):
C.
T.
Work I must say.
But they seem to have gotten in.
But the legislation is moving fast and this is happening across the country.
The Human Rights Commission has written a report which clearly articulates some of the things that I've talked to you about.
So the advocacy work is about stopping what we're doing to babies to thinking about what it is that we intend to do but to also wait until a time when we can engage in a conversation with Children about what they want to happen to their bodies.
(18:11):
And this is when we talk about informed personal consent.
So,
for them to know what is happening to them and why it's happening and for them to have a say,
say,
no mom,
I don't want that.
Can we wait?
Sure.
And there's a lovely book called raising Rosie.
It tells a story of a family of a ch baby which ch is congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
(18:37):
Um and they knew the baby was going to be born with an intersex variation.
But what they did was they stepped in with a mindset of welcoming the baby in the first instance,
being informed about the child's variation.
And then taking it slowly a step at a time,
waiting for Rosie to grow up and to be aware of their body and to have a say.
(19:02):
So,
there's a model there of what to do.
How can intersex people be better represented in educational spaces?
I think the most important thing is to for us to talk about bodies.
It's already in the curriculum in health and physical education,
but I think we need to step away from just talking about sex,
(19:24):
gender and sexuality,
to talking about bodies and body diversities,
because this affects not just one group,
it's across all groups,
but it's important that we know about intersex bodies because we also might grow up heterosexual,
but then have an intersex baby.
(19:45):
So,
it's not just for now for the people that were educate the Children,
we're educating,
but it's for them as adults when they have their own baby.
So we need to rethink what is the purpose of education?
Why is it that we're talking about bodies?
Why is it that we're trying to understand bodies better and then to set up a process and a praxis that shifts our conversation and I think that's really important.
(20:13):
That's so fantastic.
Thank you so much for speaking with me.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Some really key things which stood out for me in this discussion.
Intersex is not an identity,
it's not new,
and it's often misunderstood.
Agli taught me the word endo sex.
(20:35):
It means someone's physical sex characteristics match what is expected from males and females.
It's the opposite to intersex.
There are over 40 different intersex variations.
Individuals and families often feel shame around the experience of having intersex variations.
(21:00):
A really good place to find out more is intersex human rights Australia.
I'll link to that in the show notes.
You can see Uglies research at Research Gate.
I'll also put a link for that.
Agli mentioned a book.
It's for families called raising rosie.
For more information about sexual health victoria.
You can go to dot org dot au.
(21:20):
You can follow us on instagram facebook twitter linkedin.
You can contact me directly at doing it at S H vik dot org dot au.
It's a great idea to subscribe to the podcast like it if you like it,
share it if you can,
thank you so much for listening.
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