August 23, 2023 • 20 mins
The everybody education team at Sexual Health Victoria sometimes get questions about how we discuss gender, sex and sexuality in a classroom. In this episode SHV expert educator Chrissy is going to talk through what we say and why we say it.
Resources:
See Victorian Child Safe Standards and Victoria Department of Education LGBTIQ Student Support Policy. See research Writing themselves in 4. Advocacy organisation Intersex Human Rights. See Minus 18 for resources and Inclusive Language Guide. Transcend Australia support families, parents and carers of gender diverse young people.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This podcast is produced on Wurundjeri Land.
It contains discussion about adult topics,
use your judgment if there are little ears around.
Welcome to Doing 'IT'.
This is a podcast made by the Everybody Education Team at Sexual Health Victoria.
We run a whole lot of education programs for communities and medical professionals across Victoria. We also run sexual health clinics in the city and Box Hill in Melbourne.
(00:24):
My name is Anne and I'm part of the Sexual Health Victoria Schools and Community team.
We go to schools and run classes for all year levels on bodies, growing up, puberty,
sex,
reproduction and relationships.
This podcast is for parents and carers of school aged children so we can share what goes on in our relationships and sexuality education class and help support these sorts of conversations at home. In the last 18 months or so,
(00:50):
Sexual Health Victoria have noticed that parents and carers and teachers have more questions around what we say in class,
about gender and gender diversity.
Relationships and sexuality education includes information about bodies,
identity and sexuality.
It will of course include information about general things that are common for most people and most bodies.
(01:13):
It will also include information about how bodies,
identity and sexuality can be diverse.
An example of this could be a person born with an intersex variation or a person who is transgender.
This is so everybody can be included. In this episode.
I'm going to talk with Sexual Health Victoria
schools
educator,
Chrissy,
(01:34):
who has spent lots of time in classrooms with young people delivering the EveryBODY Education program.
She's going to explain what we say in class about gender and also why we say it. Note that during this conversation,
we use the word cisgender
occasionally.
This refers to a person who knows their gender to be the same as the gender they were assigned at birth.
(02:00):
Chrissy.
Thank you so much for speaking with me about gender.
This is something we are being asked a lot by parents and carers in schools as to exactly what we say about gender.
And so I thought it'd be really great to just talk it through and have this available for people if they need.
So I want to start with,
(02:21):
why do we talk about gender? When we go in for our programs,
we talk about bodies,
we talk about body changes.
It's a natural fit to talk about gender, to talk about how bodies and people are different.
So it comes up quite naturally,
even if we ourselves don't say it,
these young people ask about it because it's very relevant and it ties in with what we're talking about in that humans grow and develop differently.
(02:46):
Humans feel differently about themselves.
This is just the facts of the world we live in. And we have a lot of policies.
Um The LGBTIQ student support policy states,
we need to make sure we're being inclusive of gender diverse,
uh sexually diverse young people.
We have the child safe standards that specifically list young people who might be intersex,
(03:08):
transgender,
lesbian,
gay or bisexual.
Uh And we also unfortunately know from research that young people who might be queer or gender diverse have higher rates of poor mental health outcomes including suicidal ideation and attempts.
So research shows us these young people need support.
So they have the natural curiosity of asking questions that have to do with bodies and why are people different?
(03:34):
And we have a lot of policies we need to follow. In any community.
People are different.
We,
yeah,
we have this obligation to support all types of diversity in a classroom.
Yes.
And it's not uncommon where when we talk about diversity,
people will bring up diversity of race.
And it's a great time to just talk about how everybody is different.
(03:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that message,
everybody is different can come in from foundation.
Yes,
absolutely.
That's a really simple message and it makes sense to young people as well.
Um so what do we say?
Well,
starting with foundation,
as you mentioned,
just starting off with that simple,
everybody is different.
Across all ages.
But from foundation,
(04:16):
we can use really intentional language like when we go in and we talk about public and private body parts,
which is shown throughout the world throughout research as a protective behavior for young people to know the scientific names for their private body parts.
And when we do things like offer them worksheets of different bodies for them to color in clothes over the private body parts.
(04:38):
Instead of saying you look like a girl,
you have a vagina,
this is your worksheet. Just letting them pick, which body looks like yours?
I was in a foundation class earlier this week and one of our very experienced educators using language,
like someone with a penis could grow up to be a man. That that's their body parts,
but maybe how they feel about their bodies could change.
(05:00):
It could not,
but we're not saying sit there and question how you feel.
We're saying this is your body.
What's its function?
Why is it private?
Who are the people you can go to for help?
So what is the difference between sex,
gender and sexuality?
Well,
how we explain it to young people in age and stage appropriate ways is that sex is the physical body often those inside and outside reproductive body parts.
(05:25):
Gender is how someone feels about themselves.
What they think about themselves,
what they know about themselves,
maybe how they present themselves to the world,
how they express themselves.
Sexuality is how someone feels about other people.
It has to do with attraction and crushes. And we're not coming in and laying out all these massive words to a foundation class.
(05:46):
But our knowledge of these three different aspects of being human,
informs how we teach about bodies,
about changing um bodies and growing up, to different ages in those age and stage appropriate ways.
So in the same way that we lay building blocks for other aspects of relationships and sexuality education,
(06:09):
these are the building blocks in those age and stage appropriate ways of explaining the difference between their bodies,
the physical side,
how they think and feel about themselves and how they may think and feel about other people.
So,
leading off from foundation,
if they're just talking about basic anatomy and different bodies have different types of anatomy uh and also opening the door for intersex bodies as well.
(06:33):
Absolutely.
Um some bodies don't look typically male or typically female.
So when it comes to diversity of sex or diversity of bodies,
what could we say to young people about that?
What we try to say is explaining that bodies can be different in the reproductive system on the outside,
but more often on the inside.
(06:55):
And when I describe people with intersex variations,
I frame it as just a different way that part of the body develops.
So oftentimes folks with intersex variations might not know until they're older that they have a difference in those reproductive body parts on the inside or maybe in how their hormones or chromosomes work.
(07:16):
Now,
while I might not say that word chromosome to a year five class,
unless they bring it up,
I describe it as a different way that they're body works and that they might not experience changes that we might expect someone with a vagina or an outwardly appearing female body to experience,
making sure that if young people are experiencing differences in how they're growing up and they have questions that they know they can ask those questions to trusted adults to make sure they get the care and support they need.
(07:46):
And for most young people,
a doctor said they were male,
yes,
when they were born and they feel male and their body works.
Kind of typically,
mostly how a male body would work.
Sometimes it's different.
Sometimes it's different.
By the time someone gets to grade five or six,
we're talking in more detail about those puberty changes and puberty typically happens differently on um someone with female body parts or typical female body parts and someone with the typical male body parts.
(08:18):
So how are we explaining that?
And how are we tying that into gender?
This is when,
when we get to those ages of years,
five and six,
I find we can differentiate what we mean when we say sex,
gender and sexuality.
And I always note that a lot of people,
adults,
young people,
everybody use these words interchangeably.
But we want to describe the differences of what we mean because we do talk so much about bodies in our class.
(08:44):
And yes,
it's relevant to talk about diversity of sexual feelings and sexuality and gender,
how someone might feel about themselves.
But a lot of the times we talk about bodies,
we talk about someone's physical sex and the changes they can expect to experience as they go through puberty.
So it helps us be a bit more clear in what we're talking about.
(09:06):
We mention these changes in these ways so that we can say for someone with those female reproductive body parts or someone with a vagina,
they might menstruate,
they might get their period. For someone with a penis or those male body parts,
they might experience erections.
Why are they experiencing them, all this?
(09:27):
And we spend a lot of time trying to focus on puberty as a whole,
in terms of a lot of those changes are actually quite similar across different bodies.
There are more similarities than differences.
And a huge reason why we do that is to increase empathy, because even though some bodies will experience different changes,
(09:48):
we can all be empathetic and kind and fair to each other.
And when we talk about those differences in sex,
gender and sexuality,
it comes back to those messages of empathy and respect. That we live in a world where people are different.
Everybody deserves fairness and kindness.
And respect.
We hope when we're talking to young people that we're saying things that are truthful and the truth is that bodies can be different.
(10:15):
The truth is sometimes people feel differently about their gender.
Some people are intersex and people have diverse sexuality.
There's not only diversity within gender diversity and sexuality,
but there's diversity of bodies that are cis gendered.
So a young woman with a uterus might not grow up to have a period for lots of reasons or have uh be able to have children for lots of reasons.
(10:44):
So diversity exists in lots and lots of ways.
Yes.
And even,
I mean,
we could even tie this to body image.
I mean,
if cisgender,
young women are growing up and seeing their peers grow larger breasts or maybe they're worried about their breast size, thinking what is normal?
Well,
there is no normal,
everybody is different.
(11:04):
So I think that really is our key message and for us,
if we were to ignore the diversity of sex,
gender and sexuality,
like we've said,
it would not reflect the world these young people are living in.
So what do they expect in secondary school?
What sort of discussions are we having with young people in secondary school? By secondary school,
They definitely expect us to have the inclusive language uh because it's reflecting what they're seeing and what they're interacting with day to day.
(11:32):
They are also experimenting with how they dress on their own they're experimenting with how they feel about other people.
They're experimenting maybe with their pronouns.
So it's really kind of a sounding board opportunity for them to hone the knowledge they have and ask questions they might be confused about so that we can discuss the nuances of the world around them that they live in.
(11:56):
We don't come in and introduce the diversity of sex,
gender and sexuality.
They're very well aware of it and it's an opportunity for them to clarify things in terms of knowledge,
not how they feel about themselves.
And if anyone's spoken to a teenager lately,
they're all over this language,
(12:17):
they expect it from each other.
The people are on board with different pronouns and different gender expressions.
And it might be confronting and confusing for an adult who doesn't have much experience with that,
but it's definitely part of expression for young people at the moment.
Yes.
And I think a really important thing,
we try to make sure to say that language changes all the time as you just said.
(12:41):
And I get taught words all the time by these young people,
but the existence of different humans and how their bodies work,
how they feel about themselves,
how they feel about other people, that has always been there.
But words we use to describe these different identities or experiences continue to change in English alone,
let alone other languages and it will continue to change.
(13:04):
But it's just about being respectful.
So,
uh if we talk to young people about gender,
does it make them confused about their own gender identity?
Does it put ideas in young people's heads?
That was a common concern previously that if we talk about sex,
young people want to have sex,
we know from research that that is not true.
(13:25):
Is it true for gender?
No.
Uh if a young person is questioning their gender identity,
their gender expression,
again,
that is happening before we get into that classroom.
Uh It's not stemming from one lesson mentioning that humans can be different.
If anything for those kids who might be questioning,
(13:49):
it offers some affirmation and a bit of a breath,
a sigh of relief that it's OK to be different,
which is what we say to everybody.
Um But it does not make young people confused about their gender or sexuality.
Um So what's the goal?
Why do we put it into classrooms?
Why wouldn't this be something that parents would discuss at home and share their values around it?
(14:14):
Um Why do we think it it goes in a classroom?
I think it matches our goal with relationships and sexuality education in general or many goals,
I should say first off being absolutely,
it's a shared responsibility between home school community.
We do not see our classes ever in any topic being a replacement of those discussions at home.
(14:36):
We want it to be that opportunity to either start having those conversations if they haven't already been had or continue having them,
we always try to incorporate home.
We always mention who are the people you can talk to outside of these classes.
We give them little bits of homework to incorporate the adults at home.
We absolutely don't see this as a replacement for those discussions because as we say directly to parents and carers,
(15:02):
we don't give these young people their values.
We don't tell them how to feel about things.
They find that out largely at home or maybe if they're religious or faith based,
whatever their community is, as it should be,
that's not our job.
Our goal is really to show young people that everybody is different,
(15:23):
that,
that respect and empathy for all people is just a really great foundation to live by in life in relation to any time someone interacts with another human.
And as I mentioned before,
for young people who may be questioning their sexuality or their gender diversity,
there are policies that say we have to support them and research to show that these young people do need support and we have an obligation to support them. And it's also providing language for them to help explain the world.
(15:56):
Just like you mentioned,
the idea of talking about bodies is a protective factor.
If young people have the language to talk about their own bodies,
the confidence to talk with a grown up about it,
then that's going to protect them and get them to seek help if they need it.
Same with talking about diversity.
If young people can explain,
maybe what's happening to them,
(16:16):
maybe what's happening in the world around them that's going to help them ask questions and that's what we want. Exactly.
What reactions have you had from students in class when you talk about gender?
I love this question and I want you to share what you mentioned before as well.
I have had a range,
I've had young people get so excited when they see maybe a flag in school or if I wear my pin -my pride pin,
(16:47):
sorry- and get so excited.
And even though one of the first things I always say is don't share personal stories.
I have young people jumping up saying I'm non binary or I'm gender diverse.
Let's try not to share personal stories but love the enthusiasm.
So they have that immediate affirmation that they feel. I have young people asking what is agender?
(17:09):
What is pansexual words that I have not introduced to them?
They're asking about.
I have young people asking what does it mean when people use um two different pronouns?
Again,
a concept I have not introduced to them, things that they are saying.
And I have had young people express their values from home, that they believe,
(17:29):
for example,
there are only two genders. And to me that shows they're having these conversations at home, and that's what we want, we want them to have these conversations with their trusted adults.
I am not there to change their values.
I am there to offer the evidence and the facts of the world we live in where everybody is different.
And you said you had a great classroom.
(17:51):
Yeah.
Well,
I've had,
um,
in just mentioning difference and diversity,
in bodies and in people and in family groups and family arrangements.
I've had more than one student say that's the first time in school,
someone has reflected me, and that's really validating for that
one student. It didn't apply to most people in the class.
(18:12):
But for that one student,
they felt really validated and noticed and that their difference was recognized and that's a really great thing.
So even if we think um oh,
we don't have to talk about this one thing because it doesn't apply to everybody,
the students,
it does apply to you name it whatever body difference or feeling difference we're talking about it is validating for them and it's a time to reflect the different experiences that everyone is having.
(18:39):
Yeah.
And it's not how we learn.
We don't only learn things that are happening to our body.
We learn about the world.
Exactly.
We know that grown ups have questions,
adults have questions.
Our,
our programs aren't secret.
We really encourage um schools and communities to be in partnership about what's being offered to their young people.
(19:00):
But we hope we've provided a little bit of a glimpse into the classroom.
Yeah,
just around this topic.
Awesome.
Thanks so much,
Chrissy.
Thanks.
Thanks so much to Chrissy for that discussion.
A few really key things which I think stood out for me are. Our key message is that bodies are different.
(19:21):
This is true,
whether a person is gender diverse or not,
Talking about gender and diversity does not cause young people to feel differently about who they are.
There are policy obligations and research which guide us in introducing these topics.
I'm going to list a whole bunch of resources in the episode notes.
(19:44):
You can find out more information about Sexual Health Victoria at shvic.org.au. Chrissy mentioned the Child Safe Standards and the Victorian Department of Education LGBTI Q Student Support Policy.
She also mentioned Writing Themselves In 4 as relevant research.
(20:05):
Um I'm going to link to Intersex Human Rights as well because there's some great information there.
Uh Minus 18 are a great resource for lots of things including an inclusive language guide. Transcend Australia,
provide support for families,
parents and carers of gender diverse young people.
You can follow Sexual Health Victoria on Instagram,
Facebook,
(20:25):
Twitter,
linkedin.
You can contact me directly at doingit@shvic.org.au.
Subscribe to the podcast,
so you don't miss out like it if you like it.
Thank you so much for listening.
This podcast is produced on Wurundjeri Land.
It contains discussion about adult topics,
use your judgment if there are little ears around.
Welcome to Doing 'IT'.
This is a podcast made by the Everybody Education Team at Sexual Health Victoria.
We run a whole lot of education programs for communities and medical professionals across Victoria. We also run sexual health clinics in the city and Box Hill in Melbourne.
(00:24):
My name is Anne and I'm part of the Sexual Health Victoria Schools and Community team.
We go to schools and run classes for all year levels on bodies, growing up, puberty,
sex,
reproduction and relationships.
This podcast is for parents and carers of school aged children so we can share what goes on in our relationships and sexuality education class and help support these sorts of conversations at home. In the last 18 months or so,
(00:50):
Sexual Health Victoria have noticed that parents and carers and teachers have more questions around what we say in class,
about gender and gender diversity.
Relationships and sexuality education includes information about bodies,
identity and sexuality.
It will of course include information about general things that are common for most people and most bodies.
(01:13):
It will also include information about how bodies,
identity and sexuality can be diverse.
An example of this could be a person born with an intersex variation or a person who is transgender.
This is so everybody can be included. In this episode.
I'm going to talk with Sexual Health Victoria
schools
educator,
Chrissy,
(01:34):
who has spent lots of time in classrooms with young people delivering the EveryBODY Education program.
She's going to explain what we say in class about gender and also why we say it. Note that during this conversation,
we use the word cisgender
occasionally.
This refers to a person who knows their gender to be the same as the gender they were assigned at birth.
(02:00):
Chrissy.
Thank you so much for speaking with me about gender.
This is something we are being asked a lot by parents and carers in schools as to exactly what we say about gender.
And so I thought it'd be really great to just talk it through and have this available for people if they need.
So I want to start with,
(02:21):
why do we talk about gender? When we go in for our programs,
we talk about bodies,
we talk about body changes.
It's a natural fit to talk about gender, to talk about how bodies and people are different.
So it comes up quite naturally,
even if we ourselves don't say it,
these young people ask about it because it's very relevant and it ties in with what we're talking about in that humans grow and develop differently.
(02:46):
Humans feel differently about themselves.
This is just the facts of the world we live in. And we have a lot of policies.
Um The LGBTIQ student support policy states,
we need to make sure we're being inclusive of gender diverse,
uh sexually diverse young people.
We have the child safe standards that specifically list young people who might be intersex,
(03:08):
transgender,
lesbian,
gay or bisexual.
Uh And we also unfortunately know from research that young people who might be queer or gender diverse have higher rates of poor mental health outcomes including suicidal ideation and attempts.
So research shows us these young people need support.
So they have the natural curiosity of asking questions that have to do with bodies and why are people different?
(03:34):
And we have a lot of policies we need to follow. In any community.
People are different.
We,
yeah,
we have this obligation to support all types of diversity in a classroom.
Yes.
And it's not uncommon where when we talk about diversity,
people will bring up diversity of race.
And it's a great time to just talk about how everybody is different.
(03:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that message,
everybody is different can come in from foundation.
Yes,
absolutely.
That's a really simple message and it makes sense to young people as well.
Um so what do we say?
Well,
starting with foundation,
as you mentioned,
just starting off with that simple,
everybody is different.
Across all ages.
But from foundation,
(04:16):
we can use really intentional language like when we go in and we talk about public and private body parts,
which is shown throughout the world throughout research as a protective behavior for young people to know the scientific names for their private body parts.
And when we do things like offer them worksheets of different bodies for them to color in clothes over the private body parts.
(04:38):
Instead of saying you look like a girl,
you have a vagina,
this is your worksheet. Just letting them pick, which body looks like yours?
I was in a foundation class earlier this week and one of our very experienced educators using language,
like someone with a penis could grow up to be a man. That that's their body parts,
but maybe how they feel about their bodies could change.
(05:00):
It could not,
but we're not saying sit there and question how you feel.
We're saying this is your body.
What's its function?
Why is it private?
Who are the people you can go to for help?
So what is the difference between sex,
gender and sexuality?
Well,
how we explain it to young people in age and stage appropriate ways is that sex is the physical body often those inside and outside reproductive body parts.
(05:25):
Gender is how someone feels about themselves.
What they think about themselves,
what they know about themselves,
maybe how they present themselves to the world,
how they express themselves.
Sexuality is how someone feels about other people.
It has to do with attraction and crushes. And we're not coming in and laying out all these massive words to a foundation class.
(05:46):
But our knowledge of these three different aspects of being human,
informs how we teach about bodies,
about changing um bodies and growing up, to different ages in those age and stage appropriate ways.
So in the same way that we lay building blocks for other aspects of relationships and sexuality education,
(06:09):
these are the building blocks in those age and stage appropriate ways of explaining the difference between their bodies,
the physical side,
how they think and feel about themselves and how they may think and feel about other people.
So,
leading off from foundation,
if they're just talking about basic anatomy and different bodies have different types of anatomy uh and also opening the door for intersex bodies as well.
(06:33):
Absolutely.
Um some bodies don't look typically male or typically female.
So when it comes to diversity of sex or diversity of bodies,
what could we say to young people about that?
What we try to say is explaining that bodies can be different in the reproductive system on the outside,
but more often on the inside.
(06:55):
And when I describe people with intersex variations,
I frame it as just a different way that part of the body develops.
So oftentimes folks with intersex variations might not know until they're older that they have a difference in those reproductive body parts on the inside or maybe in how their hormones or chromosomes work.
(07:16):
Now,
while I might not say that word chromosome to a year five class,
unless they bring it up,
I describe it as a different way that they're body works and that they might not experience changes that we might expect someone with a vagina or an outwardly appearing female body to experience,
making sure that if young people are experiencing differences in how they're growing up and they have questions that they know they can ask those questions to trusted adults to make sure they get the care and support they need.
(07:46):
And for most young people,
a doctor said they were male,
yes,
when they were born and they feel male and their body works.
Kind of typically,
mostly how a male body would work.
Sometimes it's different.
Sometimes it's different.
By the time someone gets to grade five or six,
we're talking in more detail about those puberty changes and puberty typically happens differently on um someone with female body parts or typical female body parts and someone with the typical male body parts.
(08:18):
So how are we explaining that?
And how are we tying that into gender?
This is when,
when we get to those ages of years,
five and six,
I find we can differentiate what we mean when we say sex,
gender and sexuality.
And I always note that a lot of people,
adults,
young people,
everybody use these words interchangeably.
But we want to describe the differences of what we mean because we do talk so much about bodies in our class.
(08:44):
And yes,
it's relevant to talk about diversity of sexual feelings and sexuality and gender,
how someone might feel about themselves.
But a lot of the times we talk about bodies,
we talk about someone's physical sex and the changes they can expect to experience as they go through puberty.
So it helps us be a bit more clear in what we're talking about.
(09:06):
We mention these changes in these ways so that we can say for someone with those female reproductive body parts or someone with a vagina,
they might menstruate,
they might get their period. For someone with a penis or those male body parts,
they might experience erections.
Why are they experiencing them, all this?
(09:27):
And we spend a lot of time trying to focus on puberty as a whole,
in terms of a lot of those changes are actually quite similar across different bodies.
There are more similarities than differences.
And a huge reason why we do that is to increase empathy, because even though some bodies will experience different changes,
(09:48):
we can all be empathetic and kind and fair to each other.
And when we talk about those differences in sex,
gender and sexuality,
it comes back to those messages of empathy and respect. That we live in a world where people are different.
Everybody deserves fairness and kindness.
And respect.
We hope when we're talking to young people that we're saying things that are truthful and the truth is that bodies can be different.
(10:15):
The truth is sometimes people feel differently about their gender.
Some people are intersex and people have diverse sexuality.
There's not only diversity within gender diversity and sexuality,
but there's diversity of bodies that are cis gendered.
So a young woman with a uterus might not grow up to have a period for lots of reasons or have uh be able to have children for lots of reasons.
(10:44):
So diversity exists in lots and lots of ways.
Yes.
And even,
I mean,
we could even tie this to body image.
I mean,
if cisgender,
young women are growing up and seeing their peers grow larger breasts or maybe they're worried about their breast size, thinking what is normal?
Well,
there is no normal,
everybody is different.
(11:04):
So I think that really is our key message and for us,
if we were to ignore the diversity of sex,
gender and sexuality,
like we've said,
it would not reflect the world these young people are living in.
So what do they expect in secondary school?
What sort of discussions are we having with young people in secondary school? By secondary school,
They definitely expect us to have the inclusive language uh because it's reflecting what they're seeing and what they're interacting with day to day.
(11:32):
They are also experimenting with how they dress on their own they're experimenting with how they feel about other people.
They're experimenting maybe with their pronouns.
So it's really kind of a sounding board opportunity for them to hone the knowledge they have and ask questions they might be confused about so that we can discuss the nuances of the world around them that they live in.
(11:56):
We don't come in and introduce the diversity of sex,
gender and sexuality.
They're very well aware of it and it's an opportunity for them to clarify things in terms of knowledge,
not how they feel about themselves.
And if anyone's spoken to a teenager lately,
they're all over this language,
(12:17):
they expect it from each other.
The people are on board with different pronouns and different gender expressions.
And it might be confronting and confusing for an adult who doesn't have much experience with that,
but it's definitely part of expression for young people at the moment.
Yes.
And I think a really important thing,
we try to make sure to say that language changes all the time as you just said.
(12:41):
And I get taught words all the time by these young people,
but the existence of different humans and how their bodies work,
how they feel about themselves,
how they feel about other people, that has always been there.
But words we use to describe these different identities or experiences continue to change in English alone,
let alone other languages and it will continue to change.
(13:04):
But it's just about being respectful.
So,
uh if we talk to young people about gender,
does it make them confused about their own gender identity?
Does it put ideas in young people's heads?
That was a common concern previously that if we talk about sex,
young people want to have sex,
we know from research that that is not true.
(13:25):
Is it true for gender?
No.
Uh if a young person is questioning their gender identity,
their gender expression,
again,
that is happening before we get into that classroom.
Uh It's not stemming from one lesson mentioning that humans can be different.
If anything for those kids who might be questioning,
(13:49):
it offers some affirmation and a bit of a breath,
a sigh of relief that it's OK to be different,
which is what we say to everybody.
Um But it does not make young people confused about their gender or sexuality.
Um So what's the goal?
Why do we put it into classrooms?
Why wouldn't this be something that parents would discuss at home and share their values around it?
(14:14):
Um Why do we think it it goes in a classroom?
I think it matches our goal with relationships and sexuality education in general or many goals,
I should say first off being absolutely,
it's a shared responsibility between home school community.
We do not see our classes ever in any topic being a replacement of those discussions at home.
(14:36):
We want it to be that opportunity to either start having those conversations if they haven't already been had or continue having them,
we always try to incorporate home.
We always mention who are the people you can talk to outside of these classes.
We give them little bits of homework to incorporate the adults at home.
We absolutely don't see this as a replacement for those discussions because as we say directly to parents and carers,
(15:02):
we don't give these young people their values.
We don't tell them how to feel about things.
They find that out largely at home or maybe if they're religious or faith based,
whatever their community is, as it should be,
that's not our job.
Our goal is really to show young people that everybody is different,
(15:23):
that,
that respect and empathy for all people is just a really great foundation to live by in life in relation to any time someone interacts with another human.
And as I mentioned before,
for young people who may be questioning their sexuality or their gender diversity,
there are policies that say we have to support them and research to show that these young people do need support and we have an obligation to support them. And it's also providing language for them to help explain the world.
(15:56):
Just like you mentioned,
the idea of talking about bodies is a protective factor.
If young people have the language to talk about their own bodies,
the confidence to talk with a grown up about it,
then that's going to protect them and get them to seek help if they need it.
Same with talking about diversity.
If young people can explain,
maybe what's happening to them,
(16:16):
maybe what's happening in the world around them that's going to help them ask questions and that's what we want. Exactly.
What reactions have you had from students in class when you talk about gender?
I love this question and I want you to share what you mentioned before as well.
I have had a range,
I've had young people get so excited when they see maybe a flag in school or if I wear my pin -my pride pin,
(16:47):
sorry- and get so excited.
And even though one of the first things I always say is don't share personal stories.
I have young people jumping up saying I'm non binary or I'm gender diverse.
Let's try not to share personal stories but love the enthusiasm.
So they have that immediate affirmation that they feel. I have young people asking what is agender?
(17:09):
What is pansexual words that I have not introduced to them?
They're asking about.
I have young people asking what does it mean when people use um two different pronouns?
Again,
a concept I have not introduced to them, things that they are saying.
And I have had young people express their values from home, that they believe,
(17:29):
for example,
there are only two genders. And to me that shows they're having these conversations at home, and that's what we want, we want them to have these conversations with their trusted adults.
I am not there to change their values.
I am there to offer the evidence and the facts of the world we live in where everybody is different.
And you said you had a great classroom.
(17:51):
Yeah.
Well,
I've had,
um,
in just mentioning difference and diversity,
in bodies and in people and in family groups and family arrangements.
I've had more than one student say that's the first time in school,
someone has reflected me, and that's really validating for that
one student. It didn't apply to most people in the class.
(18:12):
But for that one student,
they felt really validated and noticed and that their difference was recognized and that's a really great thing.
So even if we think um oh,
we don't have to talk about this one thing because it doesn't apply to everybody,
the students,
it does apply to you name it whatever body difference or feeling difference we're talking about it is validating for them and it's a time to reflect the different experiences that everyone is having.
(18:39):
Yeah.
And it's not how we learn.
We don't only learn things that are happening to our body.
We learn about the world.
Exactly.
We know that grown ups have questions,
adults have questions.
Our,
our programs aren't secret.
We really encourage um schools and communities to be in partnership about what's being offered to their young people.
(19:00):
But we hope we've provided a little bit of a glimpse into the classroom.
Yeah,
just around this topic.
Awesome.
Thanks so much,
Chrissy.
Thanks.
Thanks so much to Chrissy for that discussion.
A few really key things which I think stood out for me are. Our key message is that bodies are different.
(19:21):
This is true,
whether a person is gender diverse or not,
Talking about gender and diversity does not cause young people to feel differently about who they are.
There are policy obligations and research which guide us in introducing these topics.
I'm going to list a whole bunch of resources in the episode notes.
(19:44):
You can find out more information about Sexual Health Victoria at shvic.org.au. Chrissy mentioned the Child Safe Standards and the Victorian Department of Education LGBTI Q Student Support Policy.
She also mentioned Writing Themselves In 4 as relevant research.
(20:05):
Um I'm going to link to Intersex Human Rights as well because there's some great information there.
Uh Minus 18 are a great resource for lots of things including an inclusive language guide. Transcend Australia,
provide support for families,
parents and carers of gender diverse young people.
You can follow Sexual Health Victoria on Instagram,
Facebook,
(20:25):
Twitter,
linkedin.
You can contact me directly at doingit@shvic.org.au.
Subscribe to the podcast,
so you don't miss out like it if you like it.
Thank you so much for listening.
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