February 18, 2024 • 14 mins
In this episode we speak to Anita Brown Major about the sexual response cycle. As an occupational therapist, Anita uses her understanding of physiology to help people understand their own bodies, including what happens during a sexual experience. Sexual response and pleasure is the part of sexuality education that most adults did not receive and is still often not discussed in education. Anita helps us understand more.
Resources:
Find out more about Anita Brown Major at Thrive Rehab. See online orders for a Cliterate model. See SHV sexual and reproductive anatomy illustrations. Listen to episode #14 The Clitoris. Extra reading about sex and sexual response see Emily Nagoski Come As you Are. Find Sexual Health Victoria at shvic.org.au.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
This podcast was created on Wurundjeri Land.
It contains discussion about adult topics,
adults can use their judgment if they want young people to listen.
Welcome to doing it.
This is a podcast made by Sexual Health Victoria.
We run a whole lot of education programs for communities and medical professionals across Victoria.
We also run sexual health clinics in the city and Box Hill in Melbourne.
(00:29):
My name is Anne.
I'm part of the Sexual Health Victoria Schools and community team.
We run the Everybody education program for all year levels on bodies growing up puberty,
sex,
reproduction relationships.
This podcast is for parents and carers of school age Children.
So we can share what goes on in a relationships and sexuality education class and help support these sorts of conversations at home.
(00:53):
Today,
I'm going to be talking with Anita Brown.
Major.
Anita is an occupational therapist who is the founder of thrive rehab and has expertise in bodies and their sexual functioning.
Anita is also the creator of an educational tool called clitoris.
This is a 3d model of the vulva which can be disassembled to reveal the clitoris in situ,
(01:17):
a valuable resource to help anyone understand or explain sexual function.
Anita has a wealth of knowledge about sexual and reproductive anatomy and function.
And in this interview,
we're going to talk about the sexual response cycle.
Essentially,
this explains what makes sex pleasurable.
This is something that is so often left out of sexuality education and it was most likely not formally taught to anyone who is now a parent or a carer.
(01:45):
We know that young people have questions about this.
So let's hear a little more about how sex works.
Anita Brown Major.
Thank you so much for speaking with me about the sexual response cycle.
Thank you for having me.
So,
in your experience,
what does the average person understand about the reproductive anatomy and the sexual response cycle?
(02:10):
Um my experience is that the majority of us have never been taught this at all.
Full stop.
So I teach health professionals and I assume a baseline knowledge of nothing really that we know the reproductive side uh but not the sexual response side.
So my experience is it's OK that we don't know this because actually your health professionals,
(02:30):
your doctors,
your physios,
your OTs don't know this either and it's not taught in schools and people might not even understand their own anatomy and body parts.
No,
the majority of people don't understand that.
And under standing is power and,
and knowledge of that understanding of the systems just makes everything so much simpler.
What body parts and systems are involved when people do sexual things.
(02:51):
So basically what we,
the two biggest sex organs in your,
in your body are your brain and your skin,
it's actually not your genitals um which is often what people think.
So your brain uh uh is really important in uh in the sexual response system and your skin is even more important as well.
So touch is,
is really important in that concept.
(03:13):
And the body systems involved are everything that the brain controls.
So it's the uh cardiovascular system,
the endo system,
the nervous system.
So someone can be stimulated from thinking thoughts or touch.
Yeah.
So basically,
there's two ways,
there's the um psychogenic uh way.
So I think or see or smell or hear.
(03:36):
Um my brain recognizes a sexual res um stimulus as such and then that gets sent down your spinal cord to your genitals or you can be touched on your genitals and that has a reflex genic arch.
So that basically is where the um the body,
if you're touched on the penis or the vulva sends a message to your spinal cord system and it says,
(03:59):
OK,
kick into gear.
So that's when you have uh increased nerves um to the genitals and increased blood flow to the genitals which causes erection and engorgement of the various organs.
OK.
When you say sexual response cycle,
how does it differ depending on a person's anatomy?
It doesn't really differ.
(04:19):
So the sexual response cycle was was really discovered in the sort of 19 sixties um as such.
And the sexual response cycle involves um this arousal period.
So where you're um getting excited,
so your,
your blood pressure increases,
your muscle tension increases.
Um you know,
everything starts to get a bit tingly.
(04:39):
All these things are,
are moving through your body.
Um And then you have a plateau stage which is just before orgasm,
um which is where everything is very heightened and then it um some people then will orgasm and then have a resolution.
We know the differences between people born with penises and vulva is through these studies is that someone with a penis will go through this arousal um system.
(05:05):
So,
muscles,
tightening,
excitement,
increased rhythmic contractions,
plateau orgasm and then resolution.
And that's the resolution is a period of time for those with a penis um that can't get re excited again or can't get another erection.
What the discovery around the sexual response system um for people with vulvas is that you go through the same excitement phase.
(05:28):
So you go through um arousal,
which is again,
increased heart rate.
Um in,
you know,
nerves are stimulated.
Blood flow is flying into your clitoris and the clitoris will engorge and,
and get larger,
the bulbs behind the vulva will get larger.
Um And that takes about sort of often 20 to 30 minutes.
So just knowing that,
(05:49):
you know,
that arousal time takes time and then those which evolve,
owners can basically have two ways of um to go from there.
So you can get to a plateau stage.
So,
again,
really heightened and then you can orgasm and then come back into a heightened state.
And those with vulvas can actually have multiple orgasms.
And it's often,
that's often what's not known.
(06:10):
Um And um or that they can just get to the excitement stage and then plateau and then drop off after that.
The interesting stuff as a,
as an occupational therapist is,
I've often talked to people about that.
We use this process um with understanding.
So I had someone who'd had a stroke and um and I work a lot with people with cerebral palsy which have increased tone and when you're having a sexual response system,
(06:38):
your tone can increase.
So your arms can um your muscles can up when you have an orgasm.
Um then that tone or the muscles relax afterwards.
And if you don't have an orgasm,
then that tone can stick around or the tension can stick around.
So lots of folk that I work with will use this uh sex as a way of pain management,
(06:58):
you know,
of,
of,
of,
or looking at ways of,
you know,
of helping and understanding their body of what,
what works and what doesn't work.
Um So it's really,
so does that mean that time of plateau is a tension of the,
of all the muscles?
So if you uh again,
it's,
the plateau is just before orgasm.
But it's basically,
(07:18):
if you think about your own body and how it responds during sexual response cycle is it,
it's a,
it's a build up of muscle tension.
It's a build up of heart rate.
It's a,
you know,
it's almost like it's,
it's,
it's coming to crescendo really as such.
And um the plateau is just only a couple of seconds and it's just before um an orgasm.
Um and not everyone orgasms um as such.
(07:41):
But interestingly,
orgasms are a very much of a,
a concept of when we've,
when they've done research,
they've asked males or penis owners and vulva owners and females to,
to write down what their experience of orgasms are.
And they're very similar in terms of,
you can't differentiate when someone describes what's going on and we often think in the general public is,
(08:04):
oh,
they're different.
Um But when people describe these experiences on paper,
um they're often very similar.
It's just VVER owners can actually have multiple orgasms.
And I was talking to a doctor the other day who'd come to one of my presentations and she worked with someone who had um a drive vulva post menopause.
We talked about the understanding the sexual response cycle and she came back and the doctor explained this is the process of your body.
(08:31):
Um Maybe if you engage in um activities that mean that you,
you might be pleasured first,
then you can orgasm and uh then the um the partner can,
then,
you know,
you can re engage with,
you know,
actual penis vagina sex after that.
And the,
the client came back or the patient came back and said,
oh,
it really worked.
(08:51):
So I have a dry vagina,
but my partner pleasured me first.
Um And we know that only 30% of people with vulva's will orgasm with penis vagina sex alone.
It's a very small in a minority and it's just understanding the anatomy and how it sits.
Um So understanding that um Vulva owners can have multiple orgasms,
you can change your sexual script.
(09:12):
So it might be that you get pleasured first,
that increases um you know,
arousal and then you can engage in partnered sex um of penis vagina sex.
And then,
you know,
everyone's happy.
One of the biggest a ha moments in this whole process of understanding the sexual response cycle is that it,
you,
the,
the cycle happens without your consent really,
(09:34):
it will happen because it's the way our bodies are made up.
So you might be watching something that your body says is arousing,
but you don't actually think that or you might be touched particularly on the genitals.
Um and that might be during a non consensual act.
So if you are touched on your genitals that sends a message to your spinal cord,
it comes back and you'll start getting wet or you'll get an erection.
(09:57):
So what we,
it's what we call a sexual non concordance.
And it's probably my biggest aha moment for clients because during any sort of sexual assault,
um you can actually experience these feelings,
which we would typically associate with pleasure and arousal of orgasm.
So,
and people with sexual who've had sexual assaults couldn't experience orgasms.
(10:19):
Um and it's not consensual.
So,
or some a partner might be going,
you might be saying no,
I'm not,
I'm not into this and the partner goes,
but I can see that you're wet.
Um You,
you're,
you've got lubrication.
It's like there's no way of telling whether someone is consenting to an act with a louse other than asking,
looking at their facial clues and,
and,
and,
and actually uh understanding that.
(10:39):
So the sexual non concordance,
which is that ability to understand that if you're touched on the genitals,
you will get a sexual response.
Um And it doesn't have to be consensual and that can even be if you're from a medical profession.
Um catheterizing someone,
either a vulva owner or a penis owner.
If you touched all the genitals,
you might get an erection.
And it's really important to tell um people that and understand that so that you're not embarrassed that,
(11:04):
oh my gosh,
I,
I'm not attracted to you,
but I've got this erection.
It's a normal body response on it and how our bodies work.
Is that sexual non concordance?
What would you want young people to learn about their own bodies,
the bodies of their potential sexual partners.
I would really love young people to understand diversity of bodies.
So we in Victoria,
(11:26):
there is still a law that show means that we can't show different vulvas in media.
Um So that means that Vulva are airbrushed and everyone and it's not even in medical textbooks.
Uh that Vulva are different,
but we know that all Vulva uh are as diverse as faces and as unique as fingerprints.
It's more often not the vol that are the inner labia to the lips.
(11:48):
As such,
if the young people were talking about it,
um protrude,
it's more often than not that they're asymmetrical.
The inner labia are really important as the sexual response system.
They have erectile tissue in,
in them very easy to look at different images and goes mine don't look like that.
Whereas we,
it's because we're actually not allowed to look at different vulvas.
Um And it's,
I think it's really important to understand and like we can understand the penis,
(12:11):
we can see it hanging there.
Um but we don't understand what the clitoris looks like.
So that's certainly why we've made the clitoris model because it actually shows the inner workings and how the clitoris wraps around the urethra and the vagina and how that all into plays.
So the,
the clitoris is like an iceberg.
Often we're taught even in,
in,
in schools now that it's a small round knob.
(12:32):
It's not So we would love people to look up and understand anatomy and physiology.
If you understand the basics of how your body works,
then you can understand how pleasure works and you know,
and also understand,
you know,
how maybe a salt also has interactions with your body.
Um and you can reclaim that pleasure,
(12:52):
I think is really important as well.
So I'd really love for our young folk um to teach probably some of us older folks about a body anatomy because we just haven't been taught that.
Yeah,
so true.
Thank you so much to Anita Brown major for talking us through the sexual response cycle.
(13:14):
I'm just gonna pull out a few things that stuck out from that conversation.
For me,
a person can become sexually aroused through thinking thoughts or touch.
So brain or skin orgasm can release muscle tension and could be a pain management strategy for people with some muscle conditions,
(13:35):
touch or thoughts can trigger the sexual response cycle even without the consent to the sexual stimulus.
Understanding anatomy can help young people understand their own bodies and those of their potential sexual partners.
For more information about Sexual Health Victoria,
(13:56):
you can go to shvic.org.au episode 14 of this podcast is all about the clitoris.
I recommend going back and having a listen to that.
You can find out more about Anita at thrive rehab.
I will link to that in the episode notes.
Uh She also does online orders for the Cliterate model.
Sexual health Victoria have sexual and reproductive anatomy illustrations freely available for educational use for some extra reading about the sexual response cycle.
(14:24):
I would recommend Emily Nagoski s book come as you are.
You can follow Sexual Health Victoria on Instagram,
tiktok,
Facebook or linkedin contact us directly at doing it at XSH vic.org dot A U subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss out and thank you so much for listening.
This podcast was created on Wurundjeri Land.
It contains discussion about adult topics,
adults can use their judgment if they want young people to listen.
Welcome to doing it.
This is a podcast made by Sexual Health Victoria.
We run a whole lot of education programs for communities and medical professionals across Victoria.
We also run sexual health clinics in the city and Box Hill in Melbourne.
(00:29):
My name is Anne.
I'm part of the Sexual Health Victoria Schools and community team.
We run the Everybody education program for all year levels on bodies growing up puberty,
sex,
reproduction relationships.
This podcast is for parents and carers of school age Children.
So we can share what goes on in a relationships and sexuality education class and help support these sorts of conversations at home.
(00:53):
Today,
I'm going to be talking with Anita Brown.
Major.
Anita is an occupational therapist who is the founder of thrive rehab and has expertise in bodies and their sexual functioning.
Anita is also the creator of an educational tool called clitoris.
This is a 3d model of the vulva which can be disassembled to reveal the clitoris in situ,
(01:17):
a valuable resource to help anyone understand or explain sexual function.
Anita has a wealth of knowledge about sexual and reproductive anatomy and function.
And in this interview,
we're going to talk about the sexual response cycle.
Essentially,
this explains what makes sex pleasurable.
This is something that is so often left out of sexuality education and it was most likely not formally taught to anyone who is now a parent or a carer.
(01:45):
We know that young people have questions about this.
So let's hear a little more about how sex works.
Anita Brown Major.
Thank you so much for speaking with me about the sexual response cycle.
Thank you for having me.
So,
in your experience,
what does the average person understand about the reproductive anatomy and the sexual response cycle?
(02:10):
Um my experience is that the majority of us have never been taught this at all.
Full stop.
So I teach health professionals and I assume a baseline knowledge of nothing really that we know the reproductive side uh but not the sexual response side.
So my experience is it's OK that we don't know this because actually your health professionals,
(02:30):
your doctors,
your physios,
your OTs don't know this either and it's not taught in schools and people might not even understand their own anatomy and body parts.
No,
the majority of people don't understand that.
And under standing is power and,
and knowledge of that understanding of the systems just makes everything so much simpler.
What body parts and systems are involved when people do sexual things.
(02:51):
So basically what we,
the two biggest sex organs in your,
in your body are your brain and your skin,
it's actually not your genitals um which is often what people think.
So your brain uh uh is really important in uh in the sexual response system and your skin is even more important as well.
So touch is,
is really important in that concept.
(03:13):
And the body systems involved are everything that the brain controls.
So it's the uh cardiovascular system,
the endo system,
the nervous system.
So someone can be stimulated from thinking thoughts or touch.
Yeah.
So basically,
there's two ways,
there's the um psychogenic uh way.
So I think or see or smell or hear.
(03:36):
Um my brain recognizes a sexual res um stimulus as such and then that gets sent down your spinal cord to your genitals or you can be touched on your genitals and that has a reflex genic arch.
So that basically is where the um the body,
if you're touched on the penis or the vulva sends a message to your spinal cord system and it says,
(03:59):
OK,
kick into gear.
So that's when you have uh increased nerves um to the genitals and increased blood flow to the genitals which causes erection and engorgement of the various organs.
OK.
When you say sexual response cycle,
how does it differ depending on a person's anatomy?
It doesn't really differ.
(04:19):
So the sexual response cycle was was really discovered in the sort of 19 sixties um as such.
And the sexual response cycle involves um this arousal period.
So where you're um getting excited,
so your,
your blood pressure increases,
your muscle tension increases.
Um you know,
everything starts to get a bit tingly.
(04:39):
All these things are,
are moving through your body.
Um And then you have a plateau stage which is just before orgasm,
um which is where everything is very heightened and then it um some people then will orgasm and then have a resolution.
We know the differences between people born with penises and vulva is through these studies is that someone with a penis will go through this arousal um system.
(05:05):
So,
muscles,
tightening,
excitement,
increased rhythmic contractions,
plateau orgasm and then resolution.
And that's the resolution is a period of time for those with a penis um that can't get re excited again or can't get another erection.
What the discovery around the sexual response system um for people with vulvas is that you go through the same excitement phase.
(05:28):
So you go through um arousal,
which is again,
increased heart rate.
Um in,
you know,
nerves are stimulated.
Blood flow is flying into your clitoris and the clitoris will engorge and,
and get larger,
the bulbs behind the vulva will get larger.
Um And that takes about sort of often 20 to 30 minutes.
So just knowing that,
(05:49):
you know,
that arousal time takes time and then those which evolve,
owners can basically have two ways of um to go from there.
So you can get to a plateau stage.
So,
again,
really heightened and then you can orgasm and then come back into a heightened state.
And those with vulvas can actually have multiple orgasms.
And it's often,
that's often what's not known.
(06:10):
Um And um or that they can just get to the excitement stage and then plateau and then drop off after that.
The interesting stuff as a,
as an occupational therapist is,
I've often talked to people about that.
We use this process um with understanding.
So I had someone who'd had a stroke and um and I work a lot with people with cerebral palsy which have increased tone and when you're having a sexual response system,
(06:38):
your tone can increase.
So your arms can um your muscles can up when you have an orgasm.
Um then that tone or the muscles relax afterwards.
And if you don't have an orgasm,
then that tone can stick around or the tension can stick around.
So lots of folk that I work with will use this uh sex as a way of pain management,
(06:58):
you know,
of,
of,
of,
or looking at ways of,
you know,
of helping and understanding their body of what,
what works and what doesn't work.
Um So it's really,
so does that mean that time of plateau is a tension of the,
of all the muscles?
So if you uh again,
it's,
the plateau is just before orgasm.
But it's basically,
(07:18):
if you think about your own body and how it responds during sexual response cycle is it,
it's a,
it's a build up of muscle tension.
It's a build up of heart rate.
It's a,
you know,
it's almost like it's,
it's,
it's coming to crescendo really as such.
And um the plateau is just only a couple of seconds and it's just before um an orgasm.
Um and not everyone orgasms um as such.
(07:41):
But interestingly,
orgasms are a very much of a,
a concept of when we've,
when they've done research,
they've asked males or penis owners and vulva owners and females to,
to write down what their experience of orgasms are.
And they're very similar in terms of,
you can't differentiate when someone describes what's going on and we often think in the general public is,
(08:04):
oh,
they're different.
Um But when people describe these experiences on paper,
um they're often very similar.
It's just VVER owners can actually have multiple orgasms.
And I was talking to a doctor the other day who'd come to one of my presentations and she worked with someone who had um a drive vulva post menopause.
We talked about the understanding the sexual response cycle and she came back and the doctor explained this is the process of your body.
(08:31):
Um Maybe if you engage in um activities that mean that you,
you might be pleasured first,
then you can orgasm and uh then the um the partner can,
then,
you know,
you can re engage with,
you know,
actual penis vagina sex after that.
And the,
the client came back or the patient came back and said,
oh,
it really worked.
(08:51):
So I have a dry vagina,
but my partner pleasured me first.
Um And we know that only 30% of people with vulva's will orgasm with penis vagina sex alone.
It's a very small in a minority and it's just understanding the anatomy and how it sits.
Um So understanding that um Vulva owners can have multiple orgasms,
you can change your sexual script.
(09:12):
So it might be that you get pleasured first,
that increases um you know,
arousal and then you can engage in partnered sex um of penis vagina sex.
And then,
you know,
everyone's happy.
One of the biggest a ha moments in this whole process of understanding the sexual response cycle is that it,
you,
the,
the cycle happens without your consent really,
(09:34):
it will happen because it's the way our bodies are made up.
So you might be watching something that your body says is arousing,
but you don't actually think that or you might be touched particularly on the genitals.
Um and that might be during a non consensual act.
So if you are touched on your genitals that sends a message to your spinal cord,
it comes back and you'll start getting wet or you'll get an erection.
(09:57):
So what we,
it's what we call a sexual non concordance.
And it's probably my biggest aha moment for clients because during any sort of sexual assault,
um you can actually experience these feelings,
which we would typically associate with pleasure and arousal of orgasm.
So,
and people with sexual who've had sexual assaults couldn't experience orgasms.
(10:19):
Um and it's not consensual.
So,
or some a partner might be going,
you might be saying no,
I'm not,
I'm not into this and the partner goes,
but I can see that you're wet.
Um You,
you're,
you've got lubrication.
It's like there's no way of telling whether someone is consenting to an act with a louse other than asking,
looking at their facial clues and,
and,
and,
and actually uh understanding that.
(10:39):
So the sexual non concordance,
which is that ability to understand that if you're touched on the genitals,
you will get a sexual response.
Um And it doesn't have to be consensual and that can even be if you're from a medical profession.
Um catheterizing someone,
either a vulva owner or a penis owner.
If you touched all the genitals,
you might get an erection.
And it's really important to tell um people that and understand that so that you're not embarrassed that,
(11:04):
oh my gosh,
I,
I'm not attracted to you,
but I've got this erection.
It's a normal body response on it and how our bodies work.
Is that sexual non concordance?
What would you want young people to learn about their own bodies,
the bodies of their potential sexual partners.
I would really love young people to understand diversity of bodies.
So we in Victoria,
(11:26):
there is still a law that show means that we can't show different vulvas in media.
Um So that means that Vulva are airbrushed and everyone and it's not even in medical textbooks.
Uh that Vulva are different,
but we know that all Vulva uh are as diverse as faces and as unique as fingerprints.
It's more often not the vol that are the inner labia to the lips.
(11:48):
As such,
if the young people were talking about it,
um protrude,
it's more often than not that they're asymmetrical.
The inner labia are really important as the sexual response system.
They have erectile tissue in,
in them very easy to look at different images and goes mine don't look like that.
Whereas we,
it's because we're actually not allowed to look at different vulvas.
Um And it's,
I think it's really important to understand and like we can understand the penis,
(12:11):
we can see it hanging there.
Um but we don't understand what the clitoris looks like.
So that's certainly why we've made the clitoris model because it actually shows the inner workings and how the clitoris wraps around the urethra and the vagina and how that all into plays.
So the,
the clitoris is like an iceberg.
Often we're taught even in,
in,
in schools now that it's a small round knob.
(12:32):
It's not So we would love people to look up and understand anatomy and physiology.
If you understand the basics of how your body works,
then you can understand how pleasure works and you know,
and also understand,
you know,
how maybe a salt also has interactions with your body.
Um and you can reclaim that pleasure,
(12:52):
I think is really important as well.
So I'd really love for our young folk um to teach probably some of us older folks about a body anatomy because we just haven't been taught that.
Yeah,
so true.
Thank you so much to Anita Brown major for talking us through the sexual response cycle.
(13:14):
I'm just gonna pull out a few things that stuck out from that conversation.
For me,
a person can become sexually aroused through thinking thoughts or touch.
So brain or skin orgasm can release muscle tension and could be a pain management strategy for people with some muscle conditions,
(13:35):
touch or thoughts can trigger the sexual response cycle even without the consent to the sexual stimulus.
Understanding anatomy can help young people understand their own bodies and those of their potential sexual partners.
For more information about Sexual Health Victoria,
(13:56):
you can go to shvic.org.au episode 14 of this podcast is all about the clitoris.
I recommend going back and having a listen to that.
You can find out more about Anita at thrive rehab.
I will link to that in the episode notes.
Uh She also does online orders for the Cliterate model.
Sexual health Victoria have sexual and reproductive anatomy illustrations freely available for educational use for some extra reading about the sexual response cycle.
(14:24):
I would recommend Emily Nagoski s book come as you are.
You can follow Sexual Health Victoria on Instagram,
tiktok,
Facebook or linkedin contact us directly at doing it at XSH vic.org dot A U subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss out and thank you so much for listening.
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.