May 16, 2024 • 24 mins
In this episode we speak to performers Dean Arcuri & Jacob Thomas. Sometimes they run Drag Storytime events. Listen to Dean and Jacob describe the many ways that these events bring community, performance and storytelling together in a safe inclusive way for all.
Resources:
See Dean at Dean Arcuri and LinkedIn. Find Jacob Thomas on LinkedIn. See Rainbow Community Angels for events and news.
For more information about SHV @ shvic.org.au.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Doing 'IT'.
This is a podcast made by the Everybody Education Team at Sexual Health Victoria.
My name is Chrissy and I'll be interviewing the wonderful Jacob Thomas and Dean Arcuri.
I'd like to first acknowledge the Wurundjeri people as the traditional custodians of the lands on which our offices sit and on which I am recording today.
(00:20):
I pay my respects to elders past and present and I acknowledge the rich history of first nations peoples knowledge sharing and storytelling.
This always was and always will be aboriginal land.
Sexual Health.
Victoria runs a whole lot of education programs for communities and medical professionals across Victoria,
for young people.
We run classes for all year levels on bodies growing up puberty,
(00:44):
sex,
reproduction and relationships.
We,
we also have sexual health clinics in the city and Box Hill in Melbourne.
This podcast is for parents and carers of school age children.
So we can share what goes on in our relationships and sexuality education class and help support these sorts of conversations at home.
We've also heard from a number of people who work with young people that our podcast is a great resource for them too.
(01:09):
We appreciate everyone's ongoing support.
Thanks all for listening.
Today.
I will be talking to Jacob Thomas and Dean Arcuri.
One of the many amazing things these two do is lead drag story time events.
I'll be asking them to provide a bit more detail around the intentions and purpose of drag story time as a community event.
(01:31):
So first question and maybe I'll ask Jacob to respond first.
Could you please share a little bit about your work with drag story time events?
Hello.
So uh I got involved with drag story time uh through the wonderful Dean Arcuri.
But for me,
I like I like to,
I still do story time every now and again,
(01:51):
which is fun.
Um We did one in uh Parliament House last year in the State of Victoria,
which is very,
very,
very exciting and an honor to be invited to that more.
So now,
uh have worked with the Rainbow Community Angels,
which is a wonderful organization that supports these events to go ahead by providing uh a bit of security for parents and carers and their young people and the drag artists involved.
(02:13):
Uh Make sure those can go ahead.
And uh my specific role in that was one of the big wing designers,
which was very fun for those angels,
Dean.
How about you?
Well as the fabulously fair Frock Hudson,
I've been doing youth events for many,
many years.
and storytime is one of them,
the,
my real focus to start doing that was because I have nieces and nephews.
I wanted them to be able to,
(02:35):
you know,
I,
I was asked to do it and gave it a try and realize this is a really wonderful way just to entertain and tell stories and connect uh with young people and families.
And I'm a part of a family with lots of young kids.
So I started just going,
hey,
let's create something that they can see me do as opposed to a late night show or a cabaret show or something like that.
(02:56):
Just kind of started rolling with that.
And that's where my storytime ran and continued to do some other different events like the one Jacob was talking about where,
as opposed to just sitting and reading a book,
we did a show where we made a story with the kids.
So it was very interactive and they directed the two of us in,
in what story we would tell and where it would go.
It was really beautiful.
(03:18):
I think what's really great about any of these things is that you do them and they take a life on of their own.
That's the life that the children wanted to have.
I'm still constantly surprised when I do a story time,
whether it's at a,
a library or,
or at a school or anything.
They're constantly shocked because when they do a 'normal' story time as it was not that normal is the right word to use.
But when they just do a storytime with the teacher or the librarian,
(03:40):
the kids don't hold their attention for that long.
But the minute you're in this silly ridiculous outfit with colorful hair,
their attention is held and suddenly 45 minutes later,
the parents are like this is the best breather we've ever had.
Truly,
truly.
So and so does to just give them a bit of a break.
Let's say some of our audience might not know.
Um drag events for adults,
(04:01):
could you detail a bit the difference between how drag story time is different to an adult drag event.
I'll jump in first.
I mean,
in a very easy way,
the audience,
you know,
it's the what you're doing and how you're doing it.
You know,
when,
when we're talking about say a drag event that's open for all ages,
you've got to factor that into what you do,
what you wear,
what you say,
(04:22):
how you entertain and the reality of what becomes with that,
you know,
and,
and including just a really simple thing of recognizing the diversity of families as opposed to single individuals.
But when you're doing a show that's for a different audience,
say an 18 and over audience,
you can use a little bit more colorful language,
you can wear something,
uh you know,
that shows a little bit of leg,
(04:43):
you can do all that kind of stuff that is for that audience.
You know,
it,
it's that simple.
It's,
it's so funny.
It's a,
it's a conversation that goes around and around in circles.
But drag,
like any entertainment medium sits in a very broad and diverse space and it really is about the audience that it's for,
it's,
it's not this one thing that only must be seen one way.
(05:04):
And I mean,
if you look at the style of drag that both Jacob and I do,
it's a wily wobbly amazing,
beautiful blur of campus and color and fun.
Jacob,
did you wanna add to that?
I think,
you know,
the,
the,
the the golden rule of being a performer is,
you know,
you're paid to do,
you're paid to entertain an audience,
whoever your audience is,
you know,
when you are working with kids,
(05:25):
you have to be able to know how to work with kids,
how to do so safely.
And you know,
we are trained to be able to do that and to offer that performing for an adult audience.
Honestly,
much easier kids are high to perform for and to entertain because they're unfiltered,
they will tell you what they think.
And so if you are not ready for critique,
don't do a kid show.
(05:46):
There's an immediacy to the joy,
you know,
it is um it is a,
it's responsive to the stimuli that is color and movement and narrative.
And so doing a kids show is yes harder and yes,
there's some more clarity around what you can and cannot do for very good reason.
You know,
we have working with children's checks for that reason.
(06:08):
But also it's just like,
you know,
there you get to be a lot more free at the same time,
you know,
you,
you know,
I,
I appreciate the joy that I get to read books,
um,
as an adult to younger people,
to their families,
however their families do come found or otherwise um to be able to look at that and just sort of say,
(06:31):
like I have a little bit of jealous jealousy a little bit where I just sort of go,
oh,
I would have loved this.
I would have loved this.
You know,
maybe this would have helped um me feel not alone,
maybe this would have given me affirmation,
maybe this would have given my parents and my family some better language to support me when I needed it.
Um for me to have better language to support my friends when they needed it as well.
(06:55):
What I think the big distinction is for drag story time versus um adult only audiences is that kids story time and kids events are so grounded in the building of empathy that they are built around that joy and that care that sharing narrative.
I mean,
it's like the,
the the opportunity to relinquish your perfectionism.
(07:17):
Um And I don't know what you're talking about.
OK,
we're telling stories today.
Are we Dean.
Very good.
Excellent.
Are we doing drag story time right now?
That's fun.
That's fun,
isn't it?
I'd like that.
But it's like,
you know,
like,
like this is a great example.
It's just like with an adult audience,
you can throw a bit more shade,
you can be a bit more salacious,
you can do those things.
(07:38):
But,
um,
but again,
it's like you,
you're,
you are there individually on this stage with,
with adults and you just,
and that still scares me a bit more like quite a bit more,
not much but like uh quite a bit more compared to doing a kids show because yeah,
you're just like,
it's,
you're literally just like a sentient bundle of keys being jangled in this kid's face.
(07:59):
It's literally color and movement.
It's just like,
you know what and and another good example I'll use when we have done songs as a part of our story times or events that we have done like,
it's not the Celine Dion number.
It's not this and that we do.
You know if you're happy and you know,
cup your hands,
we do uh anything from frozen.
I don't know the words to frozen or me out of my own.
Oh But the kids know every single word and when I get it wrong one time I got it wrong and this child told me off in the middle of the song and I was just like,
(08:26):
I'm sorry,
I'm sorry I don't know what to do.
It's,
it's the reality as well that the performing,
the type of performing,
the,
the tools that we use,
the songs that we use are all things that are already a part of the kid's life and space and world.
So much easier when they're up singing the song,
let it go and you just have to move your arms around a little bit because they're doing all the work.
If you had to hone in on kind of the main purpose or intention behind drag,
(08:49):
story time as a community,
the event for kids.
What's the purpose?
What's the intention behind holding these that?
Oh,
there's so many Dean.
Do you wanna do?
You wanna,
I mean,
I'll,
I'll kick it off in a really easy way.
I,
I wanna take the word drag out for a second because the answer is actually just story time.
It,
it's gives Children and families an opportunity to come together with community,
(09:09):
whatever that may or may not be for you and listen to stories that tell you about a world or a space where you get to be who you wanna be.
You know,
the building blocks of,
of what makes you wonderful people feeling safe and secure and loved and seen in the world.
That's the beauty of story time.
Storytime as well.
(09:30):
It's very much about culture and community,
you know,
the intersectionality that exists in that it,
it,
it,
it's all a part of it.
This is why we do it,
you know,
one,
it's also to hold the kids' attention for a while and give the parents a break another really,
really big massive point.
But the stories that they share and the conversations they have coming together as community are,
what it's all about the drag bit is just,
(09:51):
instead of it being a staff member,
it's a colorful character reading to them and it just gives them hold their attention a little bit more because they don't understand why your hair is that color.
You know,
we have a,
we have a big literacy issue in this country and a lot of countries where,
you know,
engagement with books,
engagement with,
you know,
creative storytelling.
It's not as strong as it used to be.
(10:12):
You know,
we,
we need a community of people who enjoy reading,
enjoy leisure in getting lost in a book.
Again,
I used to be a big book nerd when I was a child.
But I also,
but I had a learning difficulty.
It is wanting to,
you know,
instill the basic joy of just of,
(10:32):
of narrative.
I mean,
we've had parents,
we've had carers,
we've had family members come up to us and say my kids never really engaged with a book before.
Like I've really struggled with it.
I think we found a book.
Do you have any other recommendations?
But we hope,
but that's what we're hoping to do is to instill the love of reading to build a literate society,
(10:53):
to build um a group of young people who engage in reading.
You know,
we're trying to model really positive opportunities of time spent together,
you know,
for families to enjoy reading together.
And we again are the conduit to that,
we get to hold their attention and also we get to sometimes dress as those characters from these books in our drag,
(11:16):
you know,
and so we're,
we're then playing narrator.
Um and,
you know,
and,
you know,
we can get up and we can do a bit of clowning,
for example,
we can do a bit of buffont,
we can do,
you know,
we can,
you know,
change our voices,
you know,
we can like smash our faces in,
we can do all these things.
And lastly,
it's also recognizing like the power of storytelling anytime,
you know,
we,
(11:36):
we,
we stand on unceded lands that it has a long,
long history with the power of storytelling,
through the,
through cultures,
through experiences,
through tradition,
um through knowledge sharing,
um which,
you know,
is a real privilege for us to be able to emulate as well and to give that back.
And I think just another really little thing to add on to that is we're already,
(12:00):
we do it within the existing structures that already exist,
whether that be the library or the workplace and the stories that they have.
It's not something completely new and different that's being plonked in.
It already exists within the learning and environment and space that is there.
And that's what makes it really special because it just gives it another level for them.
What messages do you hope young people get from participating in story time?
(12:22):
And what messages do you hope families get,
Dean?
Why don't you go first?
I,
I'm so proud of the very diverse books that I get to read at story times.
I,
I,
when I started doing it,
I went to uh you know,
Hairs and hyenas.
Now,
now at the Vic Pride Center grabbed a whole lot of different ones and went,
let's see how it goes and rocking up to a library and having them go,
oh,
we have that one and that one.
And now I,
(12:43):
I literally do after a library time,
a,
a half an hour chat with all the different librarians to see what we're missing in our collections or what's a new one that's coming up seeing these,
these wonderful stories that show a really interconnecting and beautiful view of the world is really lovely.
The most important thing I think I would like kids to get out of story time when they come to it is the empowerment to be able to be who you are.
(13:06):
Whatever that may be.
One of the best things about many of the stories is that it's,
it's about a child one to find their or an animal or someone who just wants to find their place in the world,
whatever that may be.
And that could be sitting at home and being happy,
that could be being in the park and playing with a truck,
having the confidence and happiness to find a space to be you.
(13:29):
And we all know,
you know,
when your kids figuring out what that means is really tough.
And then suddenly,
you know,
you're in school and you're what is defined for you in the world is by all these other pressures and create a space to let young people.
No,
it's ok to be you.
It's ok to go.
Yes,
I want to be an astronaut and it's something I can actually achieve.
It's not a uh the,
(13:49):
the world is full of possibilities.
And I think we sometimes forget that that's what we need to make sure that kids know because we,
we,
you know,
we,
we come from a community that is uh throughout history,
having a bit of a rough time,
you know,
and we uh you know,
one of the big things to me as being a very,
very proud queer person is recognizing the harm that other R does to us.
(14:13):
Um we know that our mental ill health is quite high.
Um And that's not because we're queer,
it's because of the things that happen to us.
And so having that point of objectivity to see other people empathetically.
And to say,
well,
I was told maybe I don't belong but you do.
I do.
Let's talk about in a safe age appropriate way that you can understand whether it's because of the color of your skin because you live the disability because you are growing up,
(14:41):
maybe not with as much money,
maybe because you're in um a different family structure or a system um of family structures.
Um That might not be the same as the people you go to school with or kinder or play group,
you know,
is to say,
well,
you belong here,
you are of course loved and you are of course welcomed here.
This is your space.
This can be very affirming for parents and carers and family and kin to also see themselves finally reflected in their stories.
(15:09):
Um and to see that for their inner child to heal.
And so everyone gets to sit in a space of joy,
everyone gets to sit in a space of being seen openly and safely.
My goodness,
the world needs a lot more wholesome kind stuff and we're trying to show kids how to be kind.
Yeah,
the affirming way in which story time creates a space for people to be seen and not just for kids is really great.
(15:31):
Even from the kid's perspective of seeing a family structure that might look a little bit like theirs,
which it there is so many different ones seeing a character wearing a hi a hijab like their parents do and understanding what that means.
Or skin color that reflects their family is so important and,
and the easiest way to show that everything I,
(15:52):
you know,
everyone has a place and space is to show the difference and diversity that becomes a part of it.
I actually did a story time on one of the Pride Cruises that happened and it was really interesting.
There were the whole lot of kids,
uh but what was really special was the kids were all there and the kids were happy and fine and having a good time,
there were maybe 20 kids,
there was over 100 adults and to hear stories that reflected something that was a part of their life.
(16:19):
And it could be the simplest thing of there are,
this child has two mums or this child has one parent only and having that reflection and in a safe and beautiful space makes such a difference for people to feel,
feel seen and welcomed.
And yeah,
it's really special to be able to be a part of it.
What do you think is most important for parents and carers to know about drag story time.
(16:41):
You know,
these are very safe events,
these are very controlled events as well,
which is nice.
So we just want to give that assurance as any artist would is that,
you know,
they're,
they're good to bring your kids to,
they again can be just nice,
easy time to you to for you to sit down maybe and have a break,
(17:03):
you know,
to just,
um,
not,
you know,
to like the number of exhausted parents and carers that we see.
But,
you know,
you just,
you just see these very excited children jumping up and down and you just see the parents who are just kind of laid back at,
you know,
45 degrees in the opposite direction.
Just a bit,
just a bit slumped on the bench,
just sort of going.
(17:23):
Thank goodness,
I can just rest for,
you know,
20 minutes,
30 minutes,
maybe an hour.
Let's see how long this goes.
And then the little one is a bit tired and then you say he's ready for a nap.
We are here to support your well being parents and carers.
We are here to support you as best as we can.
All of the like any art.
Sometimes it's gonna be hit and miss some people are better,
(17:44):
very storytellers than others.
Um And some people have better drag than others.
It's ok.
It's all good,
but they all come with the point and purpose of a chill,
easy time.
That is fun.
That is for your kids.
That is all also for you.
Um And if you ever see,
you know,
Frock Hudson and Pattie Choux together know that we're in for a great time because Frock's better with the kids and I'm better with the parents and we make the perfect can I just say like it's the perfect duo.
(18:11):
I be more happier when I know I'm doing an event with Pattie.
It's just,
we know we've got you all,
we've got you.
Everything's fine.
That's it.
It's kind of like,
um,
the,
be the best way I like to think of it is.
It's like an episode of the Old Simpsons.
Like where,
like,
you know,
classic era Simpsons where there were jokes for the kids and jokes for the adults and none were offensive,
(18:33):
none were salacious,
but like you had that different perception of the kids are gonna laugh at something probably because it's a fart noise and the adults are gonna laugh and just be like,
hm,
I know that.
Very good.
Excellent.
Yeah,
it's just,
um,
it is literally fun for the whole family and if any parent or carer is ever concerned,
feel free to ask my working with Children check.
I'm always happy to show you to affirm that,
(18:55):
um,
we can't,
we cannot get booked for these things unless we have them.
So,
yeah,
just,
it's,
uh,
they're so safe and so controlled for that exact reason.
Normally safer than a rollercoaster to be quiet.
They're absolutely safer than a roller coaster.
Yeah,
I mean,
Jacobs hit the nail on the head in every way,
shape and form.
There's,
uh,
we're here to ease the burden and bring a fun time.
Um,
I have a bit of a bonus question for you both.
(19:16):
What is the,
your favorite story you've read or a favorite character,
you kind of got to act out for kids.
I it's a,
a double edged sword.
It's,
it's hard because I love reading these books.
You know,
there's,
there's ones I always love to do a,
a house for uh everyone is one.
I absolutely love so much.
(19:37):
Um It is this beautiful,
beautiful book um that literally has a group of kids building a cubby house at playtime and it just beautifully reflects the diversity and inclusion and reading.
It is such a joy because it explains to kids difference in such a beautiful way.
But the the two that sing to me and over the past year connects to me in a really massive way.
(19:59):
My Shadow is Pink and My Shadow is Purple are two absolutely amazing ones in the way.
They just happily tell a story of a child just trying to feel happy and comfortable and figuring that out in the best way possible that is for them.
I know them off by heart.
That's how much joy it brings me because they're just such a wonderful thing to read with,
(20:21):
with kids and tell the stories of with them.
I just,
I love them.
Uh We did not play this before this interview.
We want to make that abundantly clear.
But those are my exact top three as well because it's just I think like my shadow is pink is so lovely because it,
it challenges gender stereotypes so safely for young boys,
(20:45):
it's really good and I mean,
like in the rise of Tate is and everything that's going on around gender based violence and that we're seeing,
you know,
this,
this corruption of masculinity um that is becoming so unsafe and so dangerous.
Yes,
for other genders,
but also for boys to be emulating to have a book like my shadow is pink to say,
(21:07):
hey,
did you know you can like a dress and like not hate yourself for it.
Did you know that you could like like the color pink and not be called like a fag or a poof?
And also even if you were that you can stand up for that and say,
hey,
that's,
you know,
embedded in homophobia.
That's a really cool thing to be able to do.
Um Yeah,
there's like,
it's,
it's not like drag story time isn't just for the queer kids.
(21:29):
It's for anyone,
everyone and it's for bang on.
It is for anyone and everyone.
I love having dads rock up to story time in particular because it's usually mums and it's usually aunts and it's usually grandmas,
but I love seeing male and patriarch family members coming along as well because you see the cogs tick in their heads and if they're raising sons,
(21:50):
if they're raising boys,
if they're raising male identifying children,
you see those cogs tick and they go,
oh,
I need to do better or.
Yep.
That's a really good point.
I need to think about that.
You know,
I need to let my kid just be a kid,
which I think is the whole point of everything is we agree.
Let kids be kids and let them explore themselves and have a good time enjoying that moment of their lives.
(22:14):
And I just,
I just want to throw in there.
It's a little bit off tangent.
But,
yep.
A,
a child might feel happy.
Um,
a male child might feel happy wearing a dress.
It doesn't mean anything.
It doesn't mean A plus B equals C which,
which is often that within this structure and world that,
that means,
oh,
this could mean this and this could mean that it doesn't.
A kid will tell you what,
what they need.
A kid will tell you who they are,
you know,
(22:34):
and you've just got to give them the space to do it.
And that's kind of the space that drag throw times sometimes can be.
We have,
we have had parents and family who have recognized that this is the safest place outside of the house.
This is the place in public where their boy can just wear a tutu because he just wants to wear a tutu and that's it.
(22:54):
Thank you both so much.
I feel like I could listen to you both talk for hours more.
I feel like and we will thank you so much for sharing your perspective.
Thank you so much for hosting these events for our young people.
Um They sound so important and I just feel really honored to have been able to have this chat with you.
(23:15):
Key things which stood out for me in this discussion are drag story time is really just story time.
The events are fun because children like fun,
interesting,
bright,
colorful and expressive storytelling,
drag story time is different to an adult drag event because the audience is different.
(23:39):
There are a ton of amazing kids books out there that represent different families,
different cultures,
different situations,
different ways of being a kid of being a human.
And people like librarians or those who present at drag story time can recommend some great inclusive books to have available.
(23:59):
Drag story time is a community event that hopes to increase representation and show young people they can have fun and that they're welcome in community.
There will be links in the episode description with more information about our amazing interviewees today along with more information about the Rainbow Community angels that were mentioned in today's episode.
(24:24):
For more information about Sexual Health Victoria,
you can visit shvic.org.au or follow us on Instagram,
Facebook,
linkedin or tiktok.
You can also contact us directly at doingit@shvic.org.au
Subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss out.
Thanks so much for listening.
Welcome to Doing 'IT'.
This is a podcast made by the Everybody Education Team at Sexual Health Victoria.
My name is Chrissy and I'll be interviewing the wonderful Jacob Thomas and Dean Arcuri.
I'd like to first acknowledge the Wurundjeri people as the traditional custodians of the lands on which our offices sit and on which I am recording today.
(00:20):
I pay my respects to elders past and present and I acknowledge the rich history of first nations peoples knowledge sharing and storytelling.
This always was and always will be aboriginal land.
Sexual Health.
Victoria runs a whole lot of education programs for communities and medical professionals across Victoria,
for young people.
We run classes for all year levels on bodies growing up puberty,
(00:44):
sex,
reproduction and relationships.
We,
we also have sexual health clinics in the city and Box Hill in Melbourne.
This podcast is for parents and carers of school age children.
So we can share what goes on in our relationships and sexuality education class and help support these sorts of conversations at home.
We've also heard from a number of people who work with young people that our podcast is a great resource for them too.
(01:09):
We appreciate everyone's ongoing support.
Thanks all for listening.
Today.
I will be talking to Jacob Thomas and Dean Arcuri.
One of the many amazing things these two do is lead drag story time events.
I'll be asking them to provide a bit more detail around the intentions and purpose of drag story time as a community event.
(01:31):
So first question and maybe I'll ask Jacob to respond first.
Could you please share a little bit about your work with drag story time events?
Hello.
So uh I got involved with drag story time uh through the wonderful Dean Arcuri.
But for me,
I like I like to,
I still do story time every now and again,
(01:51):
which is fun.
Um We did one in uh Parliament House last year in the State of Victoria,
which is very,
very,
very exciting and an honor to be invited to that more.
So now,
uh have worked with the Rainbow Community Angels,
which is a wonderful organization that supports these events to go ahead by providing uh a bit of security for parents and carers and their young people and the drag artists involved.
(02:13):
Uh Make sure those can go ahead.
And uh my specific role in that was one of the big wing designers,
which was very fun for those angels,
Dean.
How about you?
Well as the fabulously fair Frock Hudson,
I've been doing youth events for many,
many years.
and storytime is one of them,
the,
my real focus to start doing that was because I have nieces and nephews.
I wanted them to be able to,
(02:35):
you know,
I,
I was asked to do it and gave it a try and realize this is a really wonderful way just to entertain and tell stories and connect uh with young people and families.
And I'm a part of a family with lots of young kids.
So I started just going,
hey,
let's create something that they can see me do as opposed to a late night show or a cabaret show or something like that.
(02:56):
Just kind of started rolling with that.
And that's where my storytime ran and continued to do some other different events like the one Jacob was talking about where,
as opposed to just sitting and reading a book,
we did a show where we made a story with the kids.
So it was very interactive and they directed the two of us in,
in what story we would tell and where it would go.
It was really beautiful.
(03:18):
I think what's really great about any of these things is that you do them and they take a life on of their own.
That's the life that the children wanted to have.
I'm still constantly surprised when I do a story time,
whether it's at a,
a library or,
or at a school or anything.
They're constantly shocked because when they do a 'normal' story time as it was not that normal is the right word to use.
But when they just do a storytime with the teacher or the librarian,
(03:40):
the kids don't hold their attention for that long.
But the minute you're in this silly ridiculous outfit with colorful hair,
their attention is held and suddenly 45 minutes later,
the parents are like this is the best breather we've ever had.
Truly,
truly.
So and so does to just give them a bit of a break.
Let's say some of our audience might not know.
Um drag events for adults,
(04:01):
could you detail a bit the difference between how drag story time is different to an adult drag event.
I'll jump in first.
I mean,
in a very easy way,
the audience,
you know,
it's the what you're doing and how you're doing it.
You know,
when,
when we're talking about say a drag event that's open for all ages,
you've got to factor that into what you do,
what you wear,
what you say,
(04:22):
how you entertain and the reality of what becomes with that,
you know,
and,
and including just a really simple thing of recognizing the diversity of families as opposed to single individuals.
But when you're doing a show that's for a different audience,
say an 18 and over audience,
you can use a little bit more colorful language,
you can wear something,
uh you know,
that shows a little bit of leg,
(04:43):
you can do all that kind of stuff that is for that audience.
You know,
it,
it's that simple.
It's,
it's so funny.
It's a,
it's a conversation that goes around and around in circles.
But drag,
like any entertainment medium sits in a very broad and diverse space and it really is about the audience that it's for,
it's,
it's not this one thing that only must be seen one way.
(05:04):
And I mean,
if you look at the style of drag that both Jacob and I do,
it's a wily wobbly amazing,
beautiful blur of campus and color and fun.
Jacob,
did you wanna add to that?
I think,
you know,
the,
the,
the the golden rule of being a performer is,
you know,
you're paid to do,
you're paid to entertain an audience,
whoever your audience is,
you know,
when you are working with kids,
(05:25):
you have to be able to know how to work with kids,
how to do so safely.
And you know,
we are trained to be able to do that and to offer that performing for an adult audience.
Honestly,
much easier kids are high to perform for and to entertain because they're unfiltered,
they will tell you what they think.
And so if you are not ready for critique,
don't do a kid show.
(05:46):
There's an immediacy to the joy,
you know,
it is um it is a,
it's responsive to the stimuli that is color and movement and narrative.
And so doing a kids show is yes harder and yes,
there's some more clarity around what you can and cannot do for very good reason.
You know,
we have working with children's checks for that reason.
(06:08):
But also it's just like,
you know,
there you get to be a lot more free at the same time,
you know,
you,
you know,
I,
I appreciate the joy that I get to read books,
um,
as an adult to younger people,
to their families,
however their families do come found or otherwise um to be able to look at that and just sort of say,
(06:31):
like I have a little bit of jealous jealousy a little bit where I just sort of go,
oh,
I would have loved this.
I would have loved this.
You know,
maybe this would have helped um me feel not alone,
maybe this would have given me affirmation,
maybe this would have given my parents and my family some better language to support me when I needed it.
Um for me to have better language to support my friends when they needed it as well.
(06:55):
What I think the big distinction is for drag story time versus um adult only audiences is that kids story time and kids events are so grounded in the building of empathy that they are built around that joy and that care that sharing narrative.
I mean,
it's like the,
the the opportunity to relinquish your perfectionism.
(07:17):
Um And I don't know what you're talking about.
OK,
we're telling stories today.
Are we Dean.
Very good.
Excellent.
Are we doing drag story time right now?
That's fun.
That's fun,
isn't it?
I'd like that.
But it's like,
you know,
like,
like this is a great example.
It's just like with an adult audience,
you can throw a bit more shade,
you can be a bit more salacious,
you can do those things.
(07:38):
But,
um,
but again,
it's like you,
you're,
you are there individually on this stage with,
with adults and you just,
and that still scares me a bit more like quite a bit more,
not much but like uh quite a bit more compared to doing a kids show because yeah,
you're just like,
it's,
you're literally just like a sentient bundle of keys being jangled in this kid's face.
(07:59):
It's literally color and movement.
It's just like,
you know what and and another good example I'll use when we have done songs as a part of our story times or events that we have done like,
it's not the Celine Dion number.
It's not this and that we do.
You know if you're happy and you know,
cup your hands,
we do uh anything from frozen.
I don't know the words to frozen or me out of my own.
Oh But the kids know every single word and when I get it wrong one time I got it wrong and this child told me off in the middle of the song and I was just like,
(08:26):
I'm sorry,
I'm sorry I don't know what to do.
It's,
it's the reality as well that the performing,
the type of performing,
the,
the tools that we use,
the songs that we use are all things that are already a part of the kid's life and space and world.
So much easier when they're up singing the song,
let it go and you just have to move your arms around a little bit because they're doing all the work.
If you had to hone in on kind of the main purpose or intention behind drag,
(08:49):
story time as a community,
the event for kids.
What's the purpose?
What's the intention behind holding these that?
Oh,
there's so many Dean.
Do you wanna do?
You wanna,
I mean,
I'll,
I'll kick it off in a really easy way.
I,
I wanna take the word drag out for a second because the answer is actually just story time.
It,
it's gives Children and families an opportunity to come together with community,
(09:09):
whatever that may or may not be for you and listen to stories that tell you about a world or a space where you get to be who you wanna be.
You know,
the building blocks of,
of what makes you wonderful people feeling safe and secure and loved and seen in the world.
That's the beauty of story time.
Storytime as well.
(09:30):
It's very much about culture and community,
you know,
the intersectionality that exists in that it,
it,
it,
it's all a part of it.
This is why we do it,
you know,
one,
it's also to hold the kids' attention for a while and give the parents a break another really,
really big massive point.
But the stories that they share and the conversations they have coming together as community are,
what it's all about the drag bit is just,
(09:51):
instead of it being a staff member,
it's a colorful character reading to them and it just gives them hold their attention a little bit more because they don't understand why your hair is that color.
You know,
we have a,
we have a big literacy issue in this country and a lot of countries where,
you know,
engagement with books,
engagement with,
you know,
creative storytelling.
It's not as strong as it used to be.
(10:12):
You know,
we,
we need a community of people who enjoy reading,
enjoy leisure in getting lost in a book.
Again,
I used to be a big book nerd when I was a child.
But I also,
but I had a learning difficulty.
It is wanting to,
you know,
instill the basic joy of just of,
(10:32):
of narrative.
I mean,
we've had parents,
we've had carers,
we've had family members come up to us and say my kids never really engaged with a book before.
Like I've really struggled with it.
I think we found a book.
Do you have any other recommendations?
But we hope,
but that's what we're hoping to do is to instill the love of reading to build a literate society,
(10:53):
to build um a group of young people who engage in reading.
You know,
we're trying to model really positive opportunities of time spent together,
you know,
for families to enjoy reading together.
And we again are the conduit to that,
we get to hold their attention and also we get to sometimes dress as those characters from these books in our drag,
(11:16):
you know,
and so we're,
we're then playing narrator.
Um and,
you know,
and,
you know,
we can get up and we can do a bit of clowning,
for example,
we can do a bit of buffont,
we can do,
you know,
we can,
you know,
change our voices,
you know,
we can like smash our faces in,
we can do all these things.
And lastly,
it's also recognizing like the power of storytelling anytime,
you know,
we,
(11:36):
we,
we stand on unceded lands that it has a long,
long history with the power of storytelling,
through the,
through cultures,
through experiences,
through tradition,
um through knowledge sharing,
um which,
you know,
is a real privilege for us to be able to emulate as well and to give that back.
And I think just another really little thing to add on to that is we're already,
(12:00):
we do it within the existing structures that already exist,
whether that be the library or the workplace and the stories that they have.
It's not something completely new and different that's being plonked in.
It already exists within the learning and environment and space that is there.
And that's what makes it really special because it just gives it another level for them.
What messages do you hope young people get from participating in story time?
(12:22):
And what messages do you hope families get,
Dean?
Why don't you go first?
I,
I'm so proud of the very diverse books that I get to read at story times.
I,
I,
when I started doing it,
I went to uh you know,
Hairs and hyenas.
Now,
now at the Vic Pride Center grabbed a whole lot of different ones and went,
let's see how it goes and rocking up to a library and having them go,
oh,
we have that one and that one.
And now I,
(12:43):
I literally do after a library time,
a,
a half an hour chat with all the different librarians to see what we're missing in our collections or what's a new one that's coming up seeing these,
these wonderful stories that show a really interconnecting and beautiful view of the world is really lovely.
The most important thing I think I would like kids to get out of story time when they come to it is the empowerment to be able to be who you are.
(13:06):
Whatever that may be.
One of the best things about many of the stories is that it's,
it's about a child one to find their or an animal or someone who just wants to find their place in the world,
whatever that may be.
And that could be sitting at home and being happy,
that could be being in the park and playing with a truck,
having the confidence and happiness to find a space to be you.
(13:29):
And we all know,
you know,
when your kids figuring out what that means is really tough.
And then suddenly,
you know,
you're in school and you're what is defined for you in the world is by all these other pressures and create a space to let young people.
No,
it's ok to be you.
It's ok to go.
Yes,
I want to be an astronaut and it's something I can actually achieve.
It's not a uh the,
(13:49):
the world is full of possibilities.
And I think we sometimes forget that that's what we need to make sure that kids know because we,
we,
you know,
we,
we come from a community that is uh throughout history,
having a bit of a rough time,
you know,
and we uh you know,
one of the big things to me as being a very,
very proud queer person is recognizing the harm that other R does to us.
(14:13):
Um we know that our mental ill health is quite high.
Um And that's not because we're queer,
it's because of the things that happen to us.
And so having that point of objectivity to see other people empathetically.
And to say,
well,
I was told maybe I don't belong but you do.
I do.
Let's talk about in a safe age appropriate way that you can understand whether it's because of the color of your skin because you live the disability because you are growing up,
(14:41):
maybe not with as much money,
maybe because you're in um a different family structure or a system um of family structures.
Um That might not be the same as the people you go to school with or kinder or play group,
you know,
is to say,
well,
you belong here,
you are of course loved and you are of course welcomed here.
This is your space.
This can be very affirming for parents and carers and family and kin to also see themselves finally reflected in their stories.
(15:09):
Um and to see that for their inner child to heal.
And so everyone gets to sit in a space of joy,
everyone gets to sit in a space of being seen openly and safely.
My goodness,
the world needs a lot more wholesome kind stuff and we're trying to show kids how to be kind.
Yeah,
the affirming way in which story time creates a space for people to be seen and not just for kids is really great.
(15:31):
Even from the kid's perspective of seeing a family structure that might look a little bit like theirs,
which it there is so many different ones seeing a character wearing a hi a hijab like their parents do and understanding what that means.
Or skin color that reflects their family is so important and,
and the easiest way to show that everything I,
(15:52):
you know,
everyone has a place and space is to show the difference and diversity that becomes a part of it.
I actually did a story time on one of the Pride Cruises that happened and it was really interesting.
There were the whole lot of kids,
uh but what was really special was the kids were all there and the kids were happy and fine and having a good time,
there were maybe 20 kids,
there was over 100 adults and to hear stories that reflected something that was a part of their life.
(16:19):
And it could be the simplest thing of there are,
this child has two mums or this child has one parent only and having that reflection and in a safe and beautiful space makes such a difference for people to feel,
feel seen and welcomed.
And yeah,
it's really special to be able to be a part of it.
What do you think is most important for parents and carers to know about drag story time.
(16:41):
You know,
these are very safe events,
these are very controlled events as well,
which is nice.
So we just want to give that assurance as any artist would is that,
you know,
they're,
they're good to bring your kids to,
they again can be just nice,
easy time to you to for you to sit down maybe and have a break,
(17:03):
you know,
to just,
um,
not,
you know,
to like the number of exhausted parents and carers that we see.
But,
you know,
you just,
you just see these very excited children jumping up and down and you just see the parents who are just kind of laid back at,
you know,
45 degrees in the opposite direction.
Just a bit,
just a bit slumped on the bench,
just sort of going.
(17:23):
Thank goodness,
I can just rest for,
you know,
20 minutes,
30 minutes,
maybe an hour.
Let's see how long this goes.
And then the little one is a bit tired and then you say he's ready for a nap.
We are here to support your well being parents and carers.
We are here to support you as best as we can.
All of the like any art.
Sometimes it's gonna be hit and miss some people are better,
(17:44):
very storytellers than others.
Um And some people have better drag than others.
It's ok.
It's all good,
but they all come with the point and purpose of a chill,
easy time.
That is fun.
That is for your kids.
That is all also for you.
Um And if you ever see,
you know,
Frock Hudson and Pattie Choux together know that we're in for a great time because Frock's better with the kids and I'm better with the parents and we make the perfect can I just say like it's the perfect duo.
(18:11):
I be more happier when I know I'm doing an event with Pattie.
It's just,
we know we've got you all,
we've got you.
Everything's fine.
That's it.
It's kind of like,
um,
the,
be the best way I like to think of it is.
It's like an episode of the Old Simpsons.
Like where,
like,
you know,
classic era Simpsons where there were jokes for the kids and jokes for the adults and none were offensive,
(18:33):
none were salacious,
but like you had that different perception of the kids are gonna laugh at something probably because it's a fart noise and the adults are gonna laugh and just be like,
hm,
I know that.
Very good.
Excellent.
Yeah,
it's just,
um,
it is literally fun for the whole family and if any parent or carer is ever concerned,
feel free to ask my working with Children check.
I'm always happy to show you to affirm that,
(18:55):
um,
we can't,
we cannot get booked for these things unless we have them.
So,
yeah,
just,
it's,
uh,
they're so safe and so controlled for that exact reason.
Normally safer than a rollercoaster to be quiet.
They're absolutely safer than a roller coaster.
Yeah,
I mean,
Jacobs hit the nail on the head in every way,
shape and form.
There's,
uh,
we're here to ease the burden and bring a fun time.
Um,
I have a bit of a bonus question for you both.
(19:16):
What is the,
your favorite story you've read or a favorite character,
you kind of got to act out for kids.
I it's a,
a double edged sword.
It's,
it's hard because I love reading these books.
You know,
there's,
there's ones I always love to do a,
a house for uh everyone is one.
I absolutely love so much.
(19:37):
Um It is this beautiful,
beautiful book um that literally has a group of kids building a cubby house at playtime and it just beautifully reflects the diversity and inclusion and reading.
It is such a joy because it explains to kids difference in such a beautiful way.
But the the two that sing to me and over the past year connects to me in a really massive way.
(19:59):
My Shadow is Pink and My Shadow is Purple are two absolutely amazing ones in the way.
They just happily tell a story of a child just trying to feel happy and comfortable and figuring that out in the best way possible that is for them.
I know them off by heart.
That's how much joy it brings me because they're just such a wonderful thing to read with,
(20:21):
with kids and tell the stories of with them.
I just,
I love them.
Uh We did not play this before this interview.
We want to make that abundantly clear.
But those are my exact top three as well because it's just I think like my shadow is pink is so lovely because it,
it challenges gender stereotypes so safely for young boys,
(20:45):
it's really good and I mean,
like in the rise of Tate is and everything that's going on around gender based violence and that we're seeing,
you know,
this,
this corruption of masculinity um that is becoming so unsafe and so dangerous.
Yes,
for other genders,
but also for boys to be emulating to have a book like my shadow is pink to say,
(21:07):
hey,
did you know you can like a dress and like not hate yourself for it.
Did you know that you could like like the color pink and not be called like a fag or a poof?
And also even if you were that you can stand up for that and say,
hey,
that's,
you know,
embedded in homophobia.
That's a really cool thing to be able to do.
Um Yeah,
there's like,
it's,
it's not like drag story time isn't just for the queer kids.
(21:29):
It's for anyone,
everyone and it's for bang on.
It is for anyone and everyone.
I love having dads rock up to story time in particular because it's usually mums and it's usually aunts and it's usually grandmas,
but I love seeing male and patriarch family members coming along as well because you see the cogs tick in their heads and if they're raising sons,
(21:50):
if they're raising boys,
if they're raising male identifying children,
you see those cogs tick and they go,
oh,
I need to do better or.
Yep.
That's a really good point.
I need to think about that.
You know,
I need to let my kid just be a kid,
which I think is the whole point of everything is we agree.
Let kids be kids and let them explore themselves and have a good time enjoying that moment of their lives.
(22:14):
And I just,
I just want to throw in there.
It's a little bit off tangent.
But,
yep.
A,
a child might feel happy.
Um,
a male child might feel happy wearing a dress.
It doesn't mean anything.
It doesn't mean A plus B equals C which,
which is often that within this structure and world that,
that means,
oh,
this could mean this and this could mean that it doesn't.
A kid will tell you what,
what they need.
A kid will tell you who they are,
you know,
(22:34):
and you've just got to give them the space to do it.
And that's kind of the space that drag throw times sometimes can be.
We have,
we have had parents and family who have recognized that this is the safest place outside of the house.
This is the place in public where their boy can just wear a tutu because he just wants to wear a tutu and that's it.
(22:54):
Thank you both so much.
I feel like I could listen to you both talk for hours more.
I feel like and we will thank you so much for sharing your perspective.
Thank you so much for hosting these events for our young people.
Um They sound so important and I just feel really honored to have been able to have this chat with you.
(23:15):
Key things which stood out for me in this discussion are drag story time is really just story time.
The events are fun because children like fun,
interesting,
bright,
colorful and expressive storytelling,
drag story time is different to an adult drag event because the audience is different.
(23:39):
There are a ton of amazing kids books out there that represent different families,
different cultures,
different situations,
different ways of being a kid of being a human.
And people like librarians or those who present at drag story time can recommend some great inclusive books to have available.
(23:59):
Drag story time is a community event that hopes to increase representation and show young people they can have fun and that they're welcome in community.
There will be links in the episode description with more information about our amazing interviewees today along with more information about the Rainbow Community angels that were mentioned in today's episode.
(24:24):
For more information about Sexual Health Victoria,
you can visit shvic.org.au or follow us on Instagram,
Facebook,
linkedin or tiktok.
You can also contact us directly at doingit@shvic.org.au
Subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss out.
Thanks so much for listening.
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