April 16, 2024 • 39 mins
Imagine opening your heart to a complete stranger in one of the most profound ways possible. That's exactly what our guests, Josiah Wolfson and Kat Gordon, did when they each made the life-affirming decision to donate a kidney to someone they'd never met. Their compelling stories of self-discovery and transformation are sure to resonate deeply, as they recount the moments that led them to donate.
Josiah, a former lawyer turned spiritual nomad, describes an epic pandemic filled with change and growth, where the serenity of crafting a cob house in South America became a metaphor for rebuilding his own life's purpose. His narrative is a remarkable odyssey from the courtroom to the mountains, culminating in a gift that transcends the self. Kat, on the other hand, brings us into the fold of her own initial skepticism and the journey to understanding the profound impact one person can have. Together, they peel back the layers of their experiences, revealing the personal epiphanies and societal misconceptions that often accompany the complex giving of an organ.
We cap off this inspiring dialogue by examining the unexpected waves made by kidney donations, from the donors' enhanced health and perspectives to the creation of a tightly-knit community—a 'tribe'—bound by their shared altruistic choice. Their narratives illuminate the human capacity for connection, and the life-altering joy that stems from helping someone in need. Listen to the full episode for a heartfelt exploration of the rippling effects of kindness and the unexpected journeys that can unfold when you decide to share your most personal parts, with a stranger.
Show Notes
Living in Paz TicToc
Living in Paz Instagram
Living in Paz YouTube (Espanol)
Living in Paz YouTube (English)
Demonstration of a non-directed donor starting a chain
The Power of non-directed donation (story)
Why we donated kidneys to strangers
What Makes a Person Decide to Donate His Kidney to a Stranger
Patty describing her non-directed donation
how the Family Voucher Program
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
One of the things I like to think about is how much
we have to gain from loving astranger.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Yeah, love is critical, it's everything, and
when you do something like thisbased on love, it just is
magnified throughout the world.
I would say I just want to feelthe sunshine.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I just want to feel the sunshine.
Oh, who donates a kidney to acomplete stranger?
Just because Non-directeddonors do, and we call them NDDs
.
I pulled up the data on theOrgan Procurement and
(00:59):
Transplantation Network websiteand here's what I found about
NDDs as of this month, about4,400 Americans have donated a
kidney to a stranger Total likein the history of non-directed
donation the first NDD donatedin 1988, and a decade later the
second and third donated.
The first big increase was in2000, when a whopping 20
(01:23):
Americans donated kidneys tostrangers, and you better
believe that these 20 donorsfaced a lot of scrutiny.
This was far from normalizedand their motives were often
questioned.
For the last several years,between 300 and 400 people
donated as an NDD each year.
91% of NDDs are white and 60%are women.
(01:46):
Age 35 to 49 is the most commonage bracket to donate.
Today, I'm interviewing JosiahWolfson and Kat Gordon, two
non-directed donors who willshare what their why was when
they decided to donate a kidneyto a stranger.
Welcome to Donor Diaries,josiah.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
I'm doing well.
I'm so happy to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, this has been a long time coming, so I'm
excited to finally have thisinterview with you.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Yeah, let's go for it .
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I know our audience can't see you, but you kind of
are dressed like a gaucho rightnow and you have this beautiful
stone wall that looks likehand-built with beautiful wood
behind you.
Where are you calling in fromtoday?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
So I'm in Mendoza, about to head down to Patagonia,
here in Argentina.
I've been here for just over aweek, but have been on the road
for the last few years.
So I'll be here with Laura forthe next 90 days, and then our
travels will continue.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
What does being on the road for the last two years
even mean?
Tell us a little more aboutthat.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Well, I practiced law .
I was an attorney.
I still am an attorney I'm notpracticing anymore in Miami for
about six years and then I guessI came to a crossroads in my
life which is related todonating a kidney where I knew
that I didn't want to continuein that direction and Laura and
I built out a sprinter van, hitthe road for a year and that
(03:13):
transitioned into backpacking,building our own house, living
more sustainably, a little bitoff grid.
So the travels are in largepart related to visa issues, us
wanting to stay together and notbeing able to be in the same
country for more than 90 days.
But yeah, just a different wayof life.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Incredible.
So Laura is your wife.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
She is.
Yeah, we've been married almosttwo years.
She's from Colombia.
We were in the States.
We met in 2019 just for a nightin Miami, and then reconnected
during the pandemic a coupleyears later, when I was building
out the van, and we've beentraveling together ever since.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
That's incredible.
And where did you build yourhouse?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
In Colombia, in the region of Santander, towards the
Venezuelan border.
Her family has some propertyout there, and I was always
fascinated with cob, which is amixture of sand, clay and straw,
and so we had some time and wefigured, you know, let's, let's
try something different.
And so, with the help of someYouTube videos, we started
(04:17):
building and we finished ourtiny home last year.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Wow, so you can actually watch YouTube and learn
how to build a house.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yeah right, Isn't that wild.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, and you have a YouTube channel where you
actually kind of talk about howto build a cob house, right?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah yeah.
It's kind of like escaping thesystem or alternative lifestyles
, and building your own house isone of those.
It's called Living in Paz P-A-Z, so that means peace.
It was the name of our van thatwe built out.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
So you're somebody who made the best out of the
pandemic and you created a wholenew life for yourself.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, something like that.
I felt like there was a buildupprior to the pandemic, but it
definitely helped give me thatnudge of just having the time to
reconsider my life and decideif it was in alignment with my
higher self, of my true,authentic self, and so I made
the jump.
June of 2021 was when I quit myjob and we moved into the van.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
And when did you and I meet?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Yeah, that was a.
That was an interestingsituation.
So I had done thistransformational training and I
met a buddy of mine, albie, whowas in it with me, and coming
out of that I started talkingabout donating a kidney and I
believe he went on like a men'sretreat in Montana and he called
(05:37):
me and he's like I met this guyon the retreat and he's married
to this woman.
That's like, just like you, shealso wants to, like you know,
cut out her organs and give themto people.
I'm pretty sure that's exactlywhat he said.
I'm like, well, that's notexactly what I'm doing, but yeah
, and and then you know we wereconnected and and you were the
only person that I knew that haddonated a kidney before
(05:58):
donating.
So unofficial mentor, right?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Josiah, in this episode we're talking about why
people donate kidneys tostrangers.
When did you start thinkingabout donating your kidney to a
stranger?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I guess it would have been the end of 2018.
It was kind of a lightningstrike moment in my life where I
knew that I had to donate.
It was one of those things thatwhen I learned that I could
live a healthy life with onekidney, I couldn't imagine not
donating.
I had been writing this ongoinglist in my phone of just
(06:34):
problems that I could see in theworld that I didn't understand
why they hadn't been solved, andone of them was kidney donation
.
I don't remember writing it,but I remember looking back at
that note when I was writingsomething else and I saw it
there and it just made me Googleliving kidney donation and I
started researching it a littlebit and learned that I could
donate and for me it was, it wasgame over, like I knew for sure
(06:57):
I was doing it.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
You describe it as a lightning strike, but you let
the idea simmer.
For what a decade.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah, it almost doesn't even feel like it was my
idea back in 2007.
Like, I put it in a note but itwas something.
It sounds kind of woo but likeI guess, like passing through me
, that I don't remember thinkingabout the idea.
It was just like a moment ofclarity that I wrote something
down and moved on and didn'tthink about it again.
And then when it resurfacedthat clarity, it was like I was
(07:26):
planting a seed that was readyto be harvested.
You know, 10, 11 years later.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So what made you want to donate a kidney?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
I don't necessarily know why I wanted to.
I just felt like I had to andnot had to, in a sense, like it
was an obligation.
I was forced.
It was something inside of methat it felt so true, so clear.
Those moments where it's likefalling in love, I think, is the
easiest way to compare it tosomething where, even if it
doesn't make sense, even if youcan't rationalize this person,
(07:56):
everyone's telling you she's notright for you.
Whatever it is, you just knowat the core within you, some
sort of higher self, that she'sthe one that you know donating a
kidney is right for you, and Iguess that's the easiest way to
try to put words to theexperience.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I love the comparison to falling in love.
I relate to that too, Likethat's.
That's kind of how it felt forme, the I let the idea simmer
for six years when I decidedthat it was time to do it.
I remember wanting to tell myfamily and just being super
hopeful that everybody was goingto support me in my decision,
because it was so important tome and I just wanted that
(08:36):
support and that ping back fromthe universe for my family that,
yeah, this is the right thingto do.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yeah, it's funny because in my case I definitely
didn't get that ping backthrough my family.
There was a lot of secondguessing, there was pushback and
in my experience that was whatI needed.
To make sure that that's what Iwanted to do, because I decided
to donate during the pandemicor right before, and so I went
through the donation process atthree different hospitals
(09:02):
because they wouldn't let meproceed with it because of the
pandemic.
They considered it an electivesurgery which, because it was
non-directed, it was elective onmy side, but obviously the
recipient it's not an electivesurgery.
And I kept questioning if thatwas the universe trying to tell
me not to donate.
But that voice inside of me, inspite of all of the obstacles,
(09:26):
it allowed me to get reallyclear that this was my journey,
this is my path and I was ableto take it with confidence.
Yeah, I think it's one of thosethings and I, as you know, I
mentor a lot of people throughthe transplant process and I
love talking to those peoplethat know they want to donate no
matter what comes up.
They're so committed.
(09:46):
And there are other people thatfeel an inclination to donate
but they're not sure they wantto.
They're just kind of dippingtheir toes in the process and
for me, I tried to get them tothe point where they either know
they don't want to donate orthey know they do, but having as
much information as possible tomake an informed decision.
And that's how I felt goinginto it.
(10:08):
Like at the beginning I waslike I know I want to donate,
but I didn't really understandwhy.
And throughout the process thedoubts came.
But I will say that from mydecision to donate to the day I
donated, I was more confidentand clear that I wanted to
donate on that last day than thefirst day, you know, a year or
whatever it was before.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
So was it a red flag to the transplant centers that
you were living in a van?
Speaker 3 (10:31):
You know, I don't know if I disclosed that
honestly, I think I put mybrother's address.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
I remember the first call that I had with you.
I was looking at transplantcenters that were available to
you and stuff and you're likewell, I could really go anywhere
because I live in a van.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
And I think I said something to you in the lines of
well, maybe don't mention thatpart I can't get you know
hashtag van life.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
But you did not recover in the van, though you
recovered in the comfort ofsomebody's home right.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
I did.
I actually ended up at myparents' house.
My now wife, lauda, was going tocome to the US to my now wife.
Lauda was going to come to theUS to be my caregiver and she
wasn't able to come into theStates.
She had a letter from mytransplant center saying she was
going to be my caregiver andshe had a visa and everything,
but they stopped her at theborder saying that there was no
way that someone was donating akidney to someone they didn't
(11:18):
know.
They didn't believe her, theythought it was fraudulent and
that for me was just like this Iguess it was fraudulent and
that for me, was just like thisI guess aha moment where I
wanted to be become an advocate,in large part because you know,
tsa, like an average everydayperson, thought that it was
inconceivable that someone woulddonate a kidney to someone they
didn't know and rejected entryto someone that said they were
(11:40):
going to be a caregiver and it'slike wow, we, we get to educate
the population on the realitythat this is a beautiful thing
that people do and it should bebelieved, right.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
You said that you did get some pushback from friends
and family.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what that looks like for
you?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah, I mean I'd been pretty independent from a young
age.
I'd done a lot of traveling andbeen on my own.
But, you know, when you callyour parents and your siblings
and your friends and you tellthem that you're going to go in
for an operation where they'regoing to cut out one of your
organs, I mean I think it'snatural People don't know what
that entails.
People don't know the risks,people assume the worst.
(12:22):
You know, they've seen a Grey'sAnatomy episode and they think
they know everything about it.
And so, yeah, there wasdefinitely some trepidation.
There was some a lot ofcuriosity and a lot of pushback,
but it was one of those thingsthat they know how I am and that
I was going to do what I wasgoing to do, and so it was one
of the.
You know, it was something thatthey knew they weren't going to
(12:43):
convince me not to do but theydefinitely made their opinions
clear.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I imagine too, when you paired I'm giving away a
kidney, oh, and I'm quitting ajob and moving into my van that
that could have felt like redflags to the people around you,
like uprooting everything thathe's built.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Yeah, it's funny Cause it's certain people.
It was absolutely like that.
And then one of my like afamily friend I call her my aunt
.
She wasn't surprised at all andshe told me this story about
someone had, like, robbed herand I went upstairs I was like
four years old to my piggy bankand took out all of my money and
was like, oh, I have, you know,this money for you.
(13:21):
And she said that I was alwaysthe most giving, the most
generous child she knew out ofyou know, out of the kids that
she would watch.
And somewhere along the waywhether it's conditioning from
society, whether it's, you know,just growing up, maturing,
whatever you want to call it Ibecame really selfish and I
(13:50):
think it makes sense.
I mean the career path that Ichose.
I was able to make a lot ofmoney practicing law,
representing very questionablepeople in a lot of cases, but I
focused on myself.
I was able to rationalizeeverything and once I, I guess,
came full circle and decided todonate a kidney, that aunt was
like, yeah, of course you'regoing to do that, like that's
the Josiah I know.
And it made me wonder why ittook X amount of years to donate
, to quote unquote.
(14:11):
Reconnect with that childhood,josiah, and I mean at least my
journey.
I was really distracted.
I was, you know, focused on acareer.
I was focused on making money,status, power, all those things
that, whether directly orindirectly, were taught from a
young age, at least in theWestern world.
And it's funny to me that Idecided to donate a kidney while
(14:32):
climbing up to Mount Everestbase camp, because it was at the
beginning of the pandemic,there was no one on the mountain
and I was all alone with my ownthoughts, with myself, and I
was able to connect with myintuition in a way where it just
became so clear and I imagineyou can relate.
But there are certain momentsof clarity in your life that you
might not be able to explain,but it's just, it's everything,
(14:56):
you can't deny it.
And in that moment I decided Iwas going to quit my job, I
decided I was going to move intoa van and I decided I was going
to donate a kidney and that isso amazing.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I love your story so much.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
I think so often it's easy to get stuck in the
routine, the rat race, the noise, and just getting to slowly
push the noise out.
I was able to listen to thatintuition that I felt like had
been muted for quite some time.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
What did you gain from donating a kidney to a
stranger, Josiah?
What?
Speaker 3 (15:33):
did you gain from donating a kidney to a stranger,
josiah?
Oh, so much.
A lot of people praise me Iguess is the word I would use of
like oh wow, you're such anamazing person for doing this
and focus a lot on the recipient.
But for me, donating had littleto do with that individual and
more to do with my spiritualjourney.
It was something that I guess.
(15:53):
There are these moments in lifewhere the knock comes at the
door and you can answer it oryou don't have to answer it, and
I found that the more often youdon't answer it, the less you
hear the knock.
I don't know if the knock'sstill coming and you don't hear
it or it stops.
And for me that's the intuition, that's the connection with my
mind and my heart or my soul,whatever you want to call it.
(16:14):
And I had this moment where, asI started doing these practices
, where I was able to connectwith myself, I also felt so much
more connected with theuniverse, with humanity, with
nature, and I could hear thatknock.
And answering that door wassuch an important moment for me
in my spiritual journey inunderstanding that I was on the
(16:35):
right path, that I wasconnecting to that knock, that I
could hear it and that,listening to it, you might have
a similar experience.
But right before going under todonate, it was, I mean, this
euphoric feeling of just likeknowing that I was in the exact
moment.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So right, Like you're on path and doing what you're
here meant to be doing.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Thank you for sharing that.
So you mentioned that youmentor people who are
considering donation.
I'm curious do you ever feellike there's a type?
Sometimes, when I'm talking topeople on the phone, there's a
way of being that non-directeddonors have and there's certain
things that they say and certainoutlooks that they have that
(17:21):
seem to be very common andconsistent to me.
Do you experience that?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
I think I would put it as thedifference between feeling like
I have to donate and I get todonate.
Those non-directed donorsreally see it, as I get to
donate, like this unparalleledopportunity to save a life or to
support someone in a verydifficult moment in their life.
And there are other people thatlove their family members or
(17:48):
love their friends and they'relike, oh, I have to save their
life, or like it's justdifferent and maybe it's a
nuance with language, but for methat's a big distinction
between the directed andnon-directed donors in a lot of
situations.
I mean, you could find so manyother differences.
For me, it's like I was sayingin my experience the more I
(18:09):
connected with myself, the moreconnected I felt with the
universe.
And I know Abigail Marsh talksabout empathy and for me empathy
is an extension of connection,and so the umbrella of feeling
connected to someone and thenthe specifics of feeling
empathetic of the situationthey're actually going through.
For me, yeah, absolutely.
(18:30):
I think when I meet othernon-directed donors or potential
non-directed donors, I feelmore connected to them because I
think they also just feel moreconnected to the whole ask
questions, they get a clearpicture of what does this mean,
what does it look like, how isthis going to affect my life?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And then they ask the question well, why aren't other
people doing this?
And that's like a question thatmakes me so joyful when I hear
somebody ask that is,non-directed donors seem to ask
the question well, why wouldn'tI do it?
Versus well, why would I do it.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it's one of thosethings of is this too good to be
true?
Like what am I missing here?
I went for a couple of weekswhere I'm like there has to be
something that I don'tunderstand.
Like what exactly what you said?
Why isn't everyone doing this?
And I think part of it isabsolutely a lack of information
, education on the topic, therisks uh, for me, like it was
very much in line with my risktolerance, like the things, the
(19:36):
way I was living my life.
It was yeah for sure.
Like that's, this is the riskof a complication.
Of course I'll do that.
Like the risk reward, costbenefit analysis, it made sense,
but we're not being taught thatright.
Like that's not a conversationpeople are having.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Well, Josiah, if people want to learn more about
your kidney donation and youradventures with Laura, how do
they find you?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah, so I've done a couple episodes on living kidney
donation living in Paz, P-A-Z.
Whether it's Instagram, TikTok,YouTube, we have Spanish and
English channels, so just makesure you're looking for English
if you're an English speaker.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningme today, Josiah.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Who would have thought we would be sitting on
your floor doing a podcast?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Well, welcome to Donor Diaries, Kat.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
I'm great.
Thanks for having me, thanksfor being here.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
So do you want to tell our audience what we're
avoiding right now?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yes, we're avoiding dishes and also Easter egg
cleanup.
Yeah, so happy Easter, thankyou.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I don't know when do you want to start At the
beginning?
Okay, so, kat, tell us a littlebit about how you and I came
together.
Let's start at that beginning.
Is that the beginning you werereferring to?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
We're aware of each other's existence when we were
young women in Waukegan Harbor,and then fast forward a decade
at least and we met again at theGoldman Sachs program in
Chicago.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
So we were in this Goldman Sachs program.
It was to help small businessesgrow, Wonderful program.
But I'll say for me the bestthing about that program was the
girlfriends that I made in theprogram, the other small
business owners like you.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Agreed.
Yeah, that was the best thingto come out of it.
We got some business advice,but whatever the relationship
that came out of it between youand I was magic from the get-go,
I believe.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I think so too.
I remember one of the projectswe had was writing a vision, and
in that vision there was apersonal aspect.
That was the first time I wrotedown that I wanted to donate a
kidney.
I didn't know that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
And I also remember thinking, when I donate my
kidney people will see how easyit is and they'll think that it
was such a great idea, that whydidn't they think of it?
And that they were going to gothen donate their kidneys.
That's how I saw that happening.
That's cute.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I believe hearing about it for the first time, I
was like you're crazy.
Why would anyone do that?
I had never met anyone whoopenly talked about this stuff.
It just opened a world ofquestions in me and made me
adore you even more for bringingup something that could
(22:30):
challenge the averageconversation.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Huh, I don't remember you challenging it, though I do
remember you asking a lot ofquestions, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
I had a lot of, I think, ego and fear surrounding
my thoughts of what you weredoing, because I didn't know you
well enough yet and I didn'tknow why somebody would do this.
Yeah, what challenged you aboutit?
Well, you were the first andonly person I had ever met to
(23:00):
bring this up socially.
I would say at you know, I mean, it's not easy to segue
transplant talk into the averageconversation.
Oh, but you're an expert atdoing that.
Now, now you can slide it intojust about any conversation.
I feel like it has a place atany conversation.
Super interesting.
(23:21):
The only negative effects wereme I think I said the phrase out
loud like you're crazy, whywould someone do that?
And I think that's that has anegative connotation, because I
had a lack of understanding andI'm sure there was ego and fear
involved.
Right, because I wouldn't.
I at the time I was like Iwould never do that because I
(23:43):
didn't understand it.
I think that was also marriedwith Well, she's a good person.
She, of course she's doing that.
I'm not a good person, so Iwould not do that.
That I'm not a good person, soI would not do that.
So, maybe a personal belief atthe time.
That was completely untrue.
I mean, I've been a good personsince I was a baby, so yeah, I
think everyone's a good person.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
You're one of the kindest people I've ever met in
my whole life, which is whyyou're one of my dearest friends
, thank you.
But so that's interesting that,even though you didn't get it,
you were one of my friends whowas really there for me and
supportive of me and showed upand laid in bed with me when I
was recovering.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
But yeah, I think, just providing support.
You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to understand
it, but if you can support theperson in a real honest way, I
think that I mean I'm lucky.
When I decided to do this, Ihad a team of people rooting for
me and some naysayers, but Ididn't listen to those people.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
No, you can't, so fast forward a little bit.
So over the last I don't knowwe've known each other close to
10 years now, I think you.
You've heard me talk aboutkidneys a lot.
So, yes, you're getting like aconstant stream of kidney right
from me, but then somebody elsewalked into your life that
wanted to donate a kidney.
Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, so we now have a mutual friend named Dave and
he for a couple years he wasinvolved in my sphere, I guess I
would say, of my small business.
I knew, connecting him with youand just your vast network of
people, that you guys couldanswer any like questions, that
(25:25):
he had any hesitations or justfiguring out if he wanted to do
it.
I knew when Dave brought it uphe was in, he was, he was doing
it and I thought, well gosh, howcould someone come to this
decision and be just steadfast,not changing their mind?
Then you would know it was theright thing.
So after he went through hisdonation, it was an incredible
(25:49):
experience.
And then I had my own questions.
So now I've known two donorsand it just really got me
thinking, wow, I have like anunderstanding of this, I see the
value of doing this and I'mhealthy and I'm going to do it.
I knew I was going to do it.
You didn't want to be theasshole at breakfast with two
(26:10):
kidneys.
Yeah, I wanted to be part ofthe one kidney club so bad that.
I was like I got to do this andso, yeah, I guess I had already
made up in my mind that I wasgoing to do it before I sat down
and had like a realconversation with you
specifically about it.
It felt like I had all theinformation I was going to do it
(26:33):
, whatever it looked like.
I wanted to come out the otherside of it taking better care of
myself.
So now that I am on the otherside of it, make really good
decisions like eating a half apint of gelato on Easter Sunday.
But really, really consider whatI did and give a gift back to
(26:58):
myself of choosing to be ahealthy person overall.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
So your own health is playing into your decision to
donate.
You thought I can do this andcome out the other side as a
person who's very committed totaking care of themselves and of
your body.
Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, but I didn't realize the extent of that.
I feel like I was prettyhealthy-ish before.
There were some things that Iwanted to cut out of my life and
now it's a no-brainer to makegood choices of everything that
goes into my body now and justbeing at the gym and physically
fit it.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Really I feel so much better now giving those gifts
to myself yeah, what was yourmotivation, would you say, for
wanting to donate to a stranger?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I think the motivation was giving a gift to
the universe and seeing what theuniverse did with it.
But yeah, so I.
I think my motivation had to dowith love, because, I mean, in
my opinion, all good things arerooted in love.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
That's what organ donation is.
It's love.
It's the kindest act of love.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, from the minute I decided, I never wavered.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
What a beautiful gift to be able to give your kidney
away in such a healthy statelike you did.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, it feels really good and, being on the other
side, I think I'm stillprocessing how special the
situation was for me.
What's interesting is that Idon't know the feelings of the
recipient, so I can onlycontinue to process what I feel
(28:33):
and I could pass away tomorrow,and in doing this, I feel very
privileged to have done it.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Yeah, it's a really interestingthing.
So doing it doesn't make you agood person.
It doesn't make you Superior.
(28:53):
Yeah, it doesn't make you agood person.
It doesn't make you Superior.
Yeah, it doesn't make youbetter than everybody.
It does make you want to talkabout kidneys all the time, and
so I have had many encounterssince then where I've had the
privilege of talking to otherpeople about their own kidney
issues.
(29:14):
I would say, and constantlysince my donation, northwestern
is the hospital that pops up forme.
I don't know if it's becausewe're in Chicagoland, but I
would say the people's doctor,dr Leventhal, is a pretty
amazing human being.
(29:34):
That's the other thing like onthe other side of it, right, the
support that I had atNorthwestern.
It was incredible.
My nurse, jared Harmon, gamechanger.
He got me up and out of bed andthen I never looked back from
there.
I was in a recumbent bike thenext day.
I don't know if this iseverybody's experience, but he
was such a good caregiver.
(29:55):
He brought out the parts of methat are super successful for
healing and, yeah, between himand all the social workers,
jennifer Cooper's bubbly energy,I mean you just it could not
have failed.
Like there was something in theair during my donor experience
(30:16):
and we didn't talk about yet thefact that I didn't know if I
was going to know my recipient.
So the idea of just giving yourkidney to whomever I believe is
a wonderful gift, and the coolthing about giving a gift is you
give it away and then you hopethat it can make someone's life
(30:39):
better.
So I believe that happened.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, what do you feel like you've gained from
donating a kidney to a stranger?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I think I have knowledge of ways to give back
that never occurred to me, andby that I mean I've participated
in the chain.
The connectivity of being partof a paired exchange so you just
don't know where it's going toend is a ripple effect.
(31:10):
So if you think about all thepeople each one of us has told
you, telling me what you weredoing to me as a virtual chain,
I would have never donated I canpretty much say that
wholeheartedly had I never metyou.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
And I never would have donated had my dad not
needed a liver and some familythat we don't know made the hard
decision to donate their lovedone's organs.
So like I love how you comeback to me and I point back
behind me and say, well, I didit because of that guy.
Right and it just shows that'sthe ripple effect, right Like
that's my dad's donor to my dad,to me, to Dave, to you.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
And here we are.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Like putting good ripples out there.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, I mean, weren't you and I are not part of a
paired exchange?
Yeah, I mean, weren't you and Iare not part of a paired
exchange?
You, Dave, and I are not partof a paired exchange, but we're
part of a chain of conversationthat carries on like going
anywhere.
Now, it's a part of me, it's apart of my dialogue.
(32:16):
I love talking about it,probably to a fault, you know.
I mean just even on the mostsimple level, right, you can
have a conversation.
I love talking about it,probably to a fault, you know, I
mean just even on the mostsimple level, right, you can
have a conversation withsomebody and they're like, wow,
you can give a kidney and stillbe alive.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I had no idea, right.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I mean, that is one of the I would say, the biggest
shockers of all of it.
Right, I went back to work andeveryone was shocked at my
physical, like stature.
Right, they're like whoa, youlook normal.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah, you look better than normal, in my opinion.
Thank, you.
And you look better than youdid a year ago.
You look great a year ago, butlike thank you.
Well, making your body aspristine as possible looks very
good on you.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Oh, thanks, well, I'm doing it from the inside.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
You are.
I'm glad it reflects from theoutside.
You are doing it from theinside out.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, yeah, I would say it's just.
This whole experience justchanged me.
I wasn't flawed or brokenbefore I did this.
It brought out all thebeautiful parts of me that
remind me of, like, who I wantto be in this world.
Yeah, so I want to be fun,though I don't want to sweat the
(33:31):
small stuff.
I want to work hard.
I want to surround myself withpeople that do good.
It really brought all thosethings to the surface that were
already there.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, do you think our friends are going to get
tired of going out and hearingabout kidneys?
Speaker 2 (33:47):
with us as we drink our Heineken Zeros.
Yes, I want to point out thatyou can drink after you have
this done.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
I'm no doctor, but you know yes alcohol is
processed in your liver, but wedo enjoy a Heineken.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Zero from time to time, yeah, I've traded my green
juices for margaritas.
No, you've traded yourmargaritas for your green juices
.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, see, there we go, I'm getting it all backwards
.
Well, getting to walk with youon your journey to donate was a
privilege for me.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Thank you.
Yeah, it was wonderful to haveI felt so supported.
I just really appreciated youto be a support to me and
especially to my husband, whoprobably processed it after the
fact that he wasn't thinkingabout it before.
But yeah, just I felt verysupported through the whole
(34:51):
experience.
So I am lucky that I got thisdone at Northwestern.
I just feel like, are theypaying you to there?
I'm not a paid employee ofNorthwestern.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Kat, what advice do you have for somebody who's
considering non-directeddonation?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Call me.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Okay, and we'll put Kat's phone number in the show
notes.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
I would say ask questions.
You know, get yourselfaffiliated with a person that
has done it.
I think is probably the mostcritical, because I was
fortunate enough to know twopeople that had gone through it
and I feel like I could haveasked either you or Dave any
(35:43):
question and you would havegiven me honest answers.
So yeah, I would say number oneget yourself in a group of
people that you can askquestions to and give yourself
time to plan and think about ifthis is really something you
want to do.
I would say don't put pressureon yourself for the why.
(36:05):
You'll be asked why a milliontimes, I'm sure, by your
transplant coordinator, and youmay not know why at first, but
you'll know why after.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Yeah, I love it, and I love what you said earlier too
about love, because I just feellike this all comes back to
love, and one of the things Ilike to think about is how much
we have to gain from loving astranger.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, love is critical, it's everything, and
when you do something like thisbased on love, it just is
magnified throughout the world.
I would say yeah Well, keepshining your bright light, my
friend.
Yeah, I can feel the sunshine.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Well, great.
So I'm hoping that our husbandsare done with dishes downstairs
.
I think it's safe to end thispodcast now and head on down.
Okay, thank you so much forbeing my guest.
Thank you.
And my friend.
Thank you, love you.
Sometimes I forget non-directeddonation is not all that common
and I forget that because Ispend a lot of time with people
(37:13):
like Kat and Josiah who donatedkidneys to strangers.
It's 100% normalized in mylittle bubble.
Do we sit around talking aboutkidneys, you might wonder.
Well, yeah, there's definitelysome of that.
But there's also an undeniablefeeling that these people are
part of a tribe, my tribe.
There is so frequently a sharedvalue system, an easy
(37:36):
person-to-person connection andan undeniable magnetism that
donors feel when they aretogether.
That part goes way beyondkidneys.
So if you find yourselfyearning to share a kidney and
you don't know why, know thatthere are people who feel that
way too.
Know that there's a communityof people out there trying
(37:58):
really, really hard to normalizekidney donation.
Come join us.
Just call CAT.
You can contact me too.
Check out our show notes formore information.
Thanks for listening.
I just want to feel thesunshine.
(38:23):
I just want to feel thesunshine.
I just want to feel thesunshine.
I share this life with you.
I share this life with you.
I share this life with you.
One of the things I like to think about is how much
we have to gain from loving astranger.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Yeah, love is critical, it's everything, and
when you do something like thisbased on love, it just is
magnified throughout the world.
I would say I just want to feelthe sunshine.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I just want to feel the sunshine.
Oh, who donates a kidney to acomplete stranger?
Just because Non-directeddonors do, and we call them NDDs
.
I pulled up the data on theOrgan Procurement and
(00:59):
Transplantation Network websiteand here's what I found about
NDDs as of this month, about4,400 Americans have donated a
kidney to a stranger Total likein the history of non-directed
donation the first NDD donatedin 1988, and a decade later the
second and third donated.
The first big increase was in2000, when a whopping 20
(01:23):
Americans donated kidneys tostrangers, and you better
believe that these 20 donorsfaced a lot of scrutiny.
This was far from normalizedand their motives were often
questioned.
For the last several years,between 300 and 400 people
donated as an NDD each year.
91% of NDDs are white and 60%are women.
(01:46):
Age 35 to 49 is the most commonage bracket to donate.
Today, I'm interviewing JosiahWolfson and Kat Gordon, two
non-directed donors who willshare what their why was when
they decided to donate a kidneyto a stranger.
Welcome to Donor Diaries,josiah.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
I'm doing well.
I'm so happy to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, this has been a long time coming, so I'm
excited to finally have thisinterview with you.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Yeah, let's go for it .
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I know our audience can't see you, but you kind of
are dressed like a gaucho rightnow and you have this beautiful
stone wall that looks likehand-built with beautiful wood
behind you.
Where are you calling in fromtoday?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
So I'm in Mendoza, about to head down to Patagonia,
here in Argentina.
I've been here for just over aweek, but have been on the road
for the last few years.
So I'll be here with Laura forthe next 90 days, and then our
travels will continue.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
What does being on the road for the last two years
even mean?
Tell us a little more aboutthat.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Well, I practiced law .
I was an attorney.
I still am an attorney I'm notpracticing anymore in Miami for
about six years and then I guessI came to a crossroads in my
life which is related todonating a kidney where I knew
that I didn't want to continuein that direction and Laura and
I built out a sprinter van, hitthe road for a year and that
(03:13):
transitioned into backpacking,building our own house, living
more sustainably, a little bitoff grid.
So the travels are in largepart related to visa issues, us
wanting to stay together and notbeing able to be in the same
country for more than 90 days.
But yeah, just a different wayof life.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Incredible.
So Laura is your wife.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
She is.
Yeah, we've been married almosttwo years.
She's from Colombia.
We were in the States.
We met in 2019 just for a nightin Miami, and then reconnected
during the pandemic a coupleyears later, when I was building
out the van, and we've beentraveling together ever since.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
That's incredible.
And where did you build yourhouse?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
In Colombia, in the region of Santander, towards the
Venezuelan border.
Her family has some propertyout there, and I was always
fascinated with cob, which is amixture of sand, clay and straw,
and so we had some time and wefigured, you know, let's, let's
try something different.
And so, with the help of someYouTube videos, we started
(04:17):
building and we finished ourtiny home last year.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Wow, so you can actually watch YouTube and learn
how to build a house.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yeah right, Isn't that wild.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, and you have a YouTube channel where you
actually kind of talk about howto build a cob house, right?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah yeah.
It's kind of like escaping thesystem or alternative lifestyles
, and building your own house isone of those.
It's called Living in Paz P-A-Z, so that means peace.
It was the name of our van thatwe built out.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
So you're somebody who made the best out of the
pandemic and you created a wholenew life for yourself.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, something like that.
I felt like there was a buildupprior to the pandemic, but it
definitely helped give me thatnudge of just having the time to
reconsider my life and decideif it was in alignment with my
higher self, of my true,authentic self, and so I made
the jump.
June of 2021 was when I quit myjob and we moved into the van.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
And when did you and I meet?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Yeah, that was a.
That was an interestingsituation.
So I had done thistransformational training and I
met a buddy of mine, albie, whowas in it with me, and coming
out of that I started talkingabout donating a kidney and I
believe he went on like a men'sretreat in Montana and he called
(05:37):
me and he's like I met this guyon the retreat and he's married
to this woman.
That's like, just like you, shealso wants to, like you know,
cut out her organs and give themto people.
I'm pretty sure that's exactlywhat he said.
I'm like, well, that's notexactly what I'm doing, but yeah
, and and then you know we wereconnected and and you were the
only person that I knew that haddonated a kidney before
(05:58):
donating.
So unofficial mentor, right?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Josiah, in this episode we're talking about why
people donate kidneys tostrangers.
When did you start thinkingabout donating your kidney to a
stranger?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
I guess it would have been the end of 2018.
It was kind of a lightningstrike moment in my life where I
knew that I had to donate.
It was one of those things thatwhen I learned that I could
live a healthy life with onekidney, I couldn't imagine not
donating.
I had been writing this ongoinglist in my phone of just
(06:34):
problems that I could see in theworld that I didn't understand
why they hadn't been solved, andone of them was kidney donation
.
I don't remember writing it,but I remember looking back at
that note when I was writingsomething else and I saw it
there and it just made me Googleliving kidney donation and I
started researching it a littlebit and learned that I could
donate and for me it was, it wasgame over, like I knew for sure
(06:57):
I was doing it.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
You describe it as a lightning strike, but you let
the idea simmer.
For what a decade.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah, it almost doesn't even feel like it was my
idea back in 2007.
Like, I put it in a note but itwas something.
It sounds kind of woo but likeI guess, like passing through me
, that I don't remember thinkingabout the idea.
It was just like a moment ofclarity that I wrote something
down and moved on and didn'tthink about it again.
And then when it resurfacedthat clarity, it was like I was
(07:26):
planting a seed that was readyto be harvested.
You know, 10, 11 years later.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
So what made you want to donate a kidney?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
I don't necessarily know why I wanted to.
I just felt like I had to andnot had to, in a sense, like it
was an obligation.
I was forced.
It was something inside of methat it felt so true, so clear.
Those moments where it's likefalling in love, I think, is the
easiest way to compare it tosomething where, even if it
doesn't make sense, even if youcan't rationalize this person,
(07:56):
everyone's telling you she's notright for you.
Whatever it is, you just knowat the core within you, some
sort of higher self, that she'sthe one that you know donating a
kidney is right for you, and Iguess that's the easiest way to
try to put words to theexperience.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I love the comparison to falling in love.
I relate to that too, Likethat's.
That's kind of how it felt forme, the I let the idea simmer
for six years when I decidedthat it was time to do it.
I remember wanting to tell myfamily and just being super
hopeful that everybody was goingto support me in my decision,
because it was so important tome and I just wanted that
(08:36):
support and that ping back fromthe universe for my family that,
yeah, this is the right thingto do.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yeah, it's funny because in my case I definitely
didn't get that ping backthrough my family.
There was a lot of secondguessing, there was pushback and
in my experience that was whatI needed.
To make sure that that's what Iwanted to do, because I decided
to donate during the pandemicor right before, and so I went
through the donation process atthree different hospitals
(09:02):
because they wouldn't let meproceed with it because of the
pandemic.
They considered it an electivesurgery which, because it was
non-directed, it was elective onmy side, but obviously the
recipient it's not an electivesurgery.
And I kept questioning if thatwas the universe trying to tell
me not to donate.
But that voice inside of me, inspite of all of the obstacles,
(09:26):
it allowed me to get reallyclear that this was my journey,
this is my path and I was ableto take it with confidence.
Yeah, I think it's one of thosethings and I, as you know, I
mentor a lot of people throughthe transplant process and I
love talking to those peoplethat know they want to donate no
matter what comes up.
They're so committed.
(09:46):
And there are other people thatfeel an inclination to donate
but they're not sure they wantto.
They're just kind of dippingtheir toes in the process and
for me, I tried to get them tothe point where they either know
they don't want to donate orthey know they do, but having as
much information as possible tomake an informed decision.
And that's how I felt goinginto it.
(10:08):
Like at the beginning I waslike I know I want to donate,
but I didn't really understandwhy.
And throughout the process thedoubts came.
But I will say that from mydecision to donate to the day I
donated, I was more confidentand clear that I wanted to
donate on that last day than thefirst day, you know, a year or
whatever it was before.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
So was it a red flag to the transplant centers that
you were living in a van?
Speaker 3 (10:31):
You know, I don't know if I disclosed that
honestly, I think I put mybrother's address.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
I remember the first call that I had with you.
I was looking at transplantcenters that were available to
you and stuff and you're likewell, I could really go anywhere
because I live in a van.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
And I think I said something to you in the lines of
well, maybe don't mention thatpart I can't get you know
hashtag van life.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
But you did not recover in the van, though you
recovered in the comfort ofsomebody's home right.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
I did.
I actually ended up at myparents' house.
My now wife, lauda, was going tocome to the US to my now wife.
Lauda was going to come to theUS to be my caregiver and she
wasn't able to come into theStates.
She had a letter from mytransplant center saying she was
going to be my caregiver andshe had a visa and everything,
but they stopped her at theborder saying that there was no
way that someone was donating akidney to someone they didn't
(11:18):
know.
They didn't believe her, theythought it was fraudulent and
that for me was just like this Iguess it was fraudulent and
that for me, was just like thisI guess aha moment where I
wanted to be become an advocate,in large part because you know,
tsa, like an average everydayperson, thought that it was
inconceivable that someone woulddonate a kidney to someone they
didn't know and rejected entryto someone that said they were
(11:40):
going to be a caregiver and it'slike wow, we, we get to educate
the population on the realitythat this is a beautiful thing
that people do and it should bebelieved, right.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
You said that you did get some pushback from friends
and family.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what that looks like for
you?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah, I mean I'd been pretty independent from a young
age.
I'd done a lot of traveling andbeen on my own.
But, you know, when you callyour parents and your siblings
and your friends and you tellthem that you're going to go in
for an operation where they'regoing to cut out one of your
organs, I mean I think it'snatural People don't know what
that entails.
People don't know the risks,people assume the worst.
(12:22):
You know, they've seen a Grey'sAnatomy episode and they think
they know everything about it.
And so, yeah, there wasdefinitely some trepidation.
There was some a lot ofcuriosity and a lot of pushback,
but it was one of those thingsthat they know how I am and that
I was going to do what I wasgoing to do, and so it was one
of the.
You know, it was something thatthey knew they weren't going to
(12:43):
convince me not to do but theydefinitely made their opinions
clear.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
I imagine too, when you paired I'm giving away a
kidney, oh, and I'm quitting ajob and moving into my van that
that could have felt like redflags to the people around you,
like uprooting everything thathe's built.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Yeah, it's funny Cause it's certain people.
It was absolutely like that.
And then one of my like afamily friend I call her my aunt
.
She wasn't surprised at all andshe told me this story about
someone had, like, robbed herand I went upstairs I was like
four years old to my piggy bankand took out all of my money and
was like, oh, I have, you know,this money for you.
(13:21):
And she said that I was alwaysthe most giving, the most
generous child she knew out ofyou know, out of the kids that
she would watch.
And somewhere along the waywhether it's conditioning from
society, whether it's, you know,just growing up, maturing,
whatever you want to call it Ibecame really selfish and I
(13:50):
think it makes sense.
I mean the career path that Ichose.
I was able to make a lot ofmoney practicing law,
representing very questionablepeople in a lot of cases, but I
focused on myself.
I was able to rationalizeeverything and once I, I guess,
came full circle and decided todonate a kidney, that aunt was
like, yeah, of course you'regoing to do that, like that's
the Josiah I know.
And it made me wonder why ittook X amount of years to donate
, to quote unquote.
(14:11):
Reconnect with that childhood,josiah, and I mean at least my
journey.
I was really distracted.
I was, you know, focused on acareer.
I was focused on making money,status, power, all those things
that, whether directly orindirectly, were taught from a
young age, at least in theWestern world.
And it's funny to me that Idecided to donate a kidney while
(14:32):
climbing up to Mount Everestbase camp, because it was at the
beginning of the pandemic,there was no one on the mountain
and I was all alone with my ownthoughts, with myself, and I
was able to connect with myintuition in a way where it just
became so clear and I imagineyou can relate.
But there are certain momentsof clarity in your life that you
might not be able to explain,but it's just, it's everything,
(14:56):
you can't deny it.
And in that moment I decided Iwas going to quit my job, I
decided I was going to move intoa van and I decided I was going
to donate a kidney and that isso amazing.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I love your story so much.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
I think so often it's easy to get stuck in the
routine, the rat race, the noise, and just getting to slowly
push the noise out.
I was able to listen to thatintuition that I felt like had
been muted for quite some time.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
What did you gain from donating a kidney to a
stranger, Josiah?
What?
Speaker 3 (15:33):
did you gain from donating a kidney to a stranger,
josiah?
Oh, so much.
A lot of people praise me Iguess is the word I would use of
like oh wow, you're such anamazing person for doing this
and focus a lot on the recipient.
But for me, donating had littleto do with that individual and
more to do with my spiritualjourney.
It was something that I guess.
(15:53):
There are these moments in lifewhere the knock comes at the
door and you can answer it oryou don't have to answer it, and
I found that the more often youdon't answer it, the less you
hear the knock.
I don't know if the knock'sstill coming and you don't hear
it or it stops.
And for me that's the intuition, that's the connection with my
mind and my heart or my soul,whatever you want to call it.
(16:14):
And I had this moment where, asI started doing these practices
, where I was able to connectwith myself, I also felt so much
more connected with theuniverse, with humanity, with
nature, and I could hear thatknock.
And answering that door wassuch an important moment for me
in my spiritual journey inunderstanding that I was on the
(16:35):
right path, that I wasconnecting to that knock, that I
could hear it and that,listening to it, you might have
a similar experience.
But right before going under todonate, it was, I mean, this
euphoric feeling of just likeknowing that I was in the exact
moment.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So right, Like you're on path and doing what you're
here meant to be doing.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Thank you for sharing that.
So you mentioned that youmentor people who are
considering donation.
I'm curious do you ever feellike there's a type?
Sometimes, when I'm talking topeople on the phone, there's a
way of being that non-directeddonors have and there's certain
things that they say and certainoutlooks that they have that
(17:21):
seem to be very common andconsistent to me.
Do you experience that?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
I think I would put it as thedifference between feeling like
I have to donate and I get todonate.
Those non-directed donorsreally see it, as I get to
donate, like this unparalleledopportunity to save a life or to
support someone in a verydifficult moment in their life.
And there are other people thatlove their family members or
(17:48):
love their friends and they'relike, oh, I have to save their
life, or like it's justdifferent and maybe it's a
nuance with language, but for methat's a big distinction
between the directed andnon-directed donors in a lot of
situations.
I mean, you could find so manyother differences.
For me, it's like I was sayingin my experience the more I
(18:09):
connected with myself, the moreconnected I felt with the
universe.
And I know Abigail Marsh talksabout empathy and for me empathy
is an extension of connection,and so the umbrella of feeling
connected to someone and thenthe specifics of feeling
empathetic of the situationthey're actually going through.
For me, yeah, absolutely.
(18:30):
I think when I meet othernon-directed donors or potential
non-directed donors, I feelmore connected to them because I
think they also just feel moreconnected to the whole ask
questions, they get a clearpicture of what does this mean,
what does it look like, how isthis going to affect my life?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And then they ask the question well, why aren't other
people doing this?
And that's like a question thatmakes me so joyful when I hear
somebody ask that is,non-directed donors seem to ask
the question well, why wouldn'tI do it?
Versus well, why would I do it.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it's one of thosethings of is this too good to be
true?
Like what am I missing here?
I went for a couple of weekswhere I'm like there has to be
something that I don'tunderstand.
Like what exactly what you said?
Why isn't everyone doing this?
And I think part of it isabsolutely a lack of information
, education on the topic, therisks uh, for me, like it was
very much in line with my risktolerance, like the things, the
(19:36):
way I was living my life.
It was yeah for sure.
Like that's, this is the riskof a complication.
Of course I'll do that.
Like the risk reward, costbenefit analysis, it made sense,
but we're not being taught thatright.
Like that's not a conversationpeople are having.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Well, Josiah, if people want to learn more about
your kidney donation and youradventures with Laura, how do
they find you?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah, so I've done a couple episodes on living kidney
donation living in Paz, P-A-Z.
Whether it's Instagram, TikTok,YouTube, we have Spanish and
English channels, so just makesure you're looking for English
if you're an English speaker.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for joiningme today, Josiah.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Who would have thought we would be sitting on
your floor doing a podcast?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Well, welcome to Donor Diaries, Kat.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
I'm great.
Thanks for having me, thanksfor being here.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
So do you want to tell our audience what we're
avoiding right now?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yes, we're avoiding dishes and also Easter egg
cleanup.
Yeah, so happy Easter, thankyou.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I don't know when do you want to start At the
beginning?
Okay, so, kat, tell us a littlebit about how you and I came
together.
Let's start at that beginning.
Is that the beginning you werereferring to?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
We're aware of each other's existence when we were
young women in Waukegan Harbor,and then fast forward a decade
at least and we met again at theGoldman Sachs program in
Chicago.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
So we were in this Goldman Sachs program.
It was to help small businessesgrow, Wonderful program.
But I'll say for me the bestthing about that program was the
girlfriends that I made in theprogram, the other small
business owners like you.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Agreed.
Yeah, that was the best thingto come out of it.
We got some business advice,but whatever the relationship
that came out of it between youand I was magic from the get-go,
I believe.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I think so too.
I remember one of the projectswe had was writing a vision, and
in that vision there was apersonal aspect.
That was the first time I wrotedown that I wanted to donate a
kidney.
I didn't know that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
And I also remember thinking, when I donate my
kidney people will see how easyit is and they'll think that it
was such a great idea, that whydidn't they think of it?
And that they were going to gothen donate their kidneys.
That's how I saw that happening.
That's cute.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I believe hearing about it for the first time, I
was like you're crazy.
Why would anyone do that?
I had never met anyone whoopenly talked about this stuff.
It just opened a world ofquestions in me and made me
adore you even more for bringingup something that could
(22:30):
challenge the averageconversation.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Huh, I don't remember you challenging it, though I do
remember you asking a lot ofquestions, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
I had a lot of, I think, ego and fear surrounding
my thoughts of what you weredoing, because I didn't know you
well enough yet and I didn'tknow why somebody would do this.
Yeah, what challenged you aboutit?
Well, you were the first andonly person I had ever met to
(23:00):
bring this up socially.
I would say at you know, I mean, it's not easy to segue
transplant talk into the averageconversation.
Oh, but you're an expert atdoing that.
Now, now you can slide it intojust about any conversation.
I feel like it has a place atany conversation.
Super interesting.
(23:21):
The only negative effects wereme I think I said the phrase out
loud like you're crazy, whywould someone do that?
And I think that's that has anegative connotation, because I
had a lack of understanding andI'm sure there was ego and fear
involved.
Right, because I wouldn't.
I at the time I was like Iwould never do that because I
(23:43):
didn't understand it.
I think that was also marriedwith Well, she's a good person.
She, of course she's doing that.
I'm not a good person, so Iwould not do that.
That I'm not a good person, soI would not do that.
So, maybe a personal belief atthe time.
That was completely untrue.
I mean, I've been a good personsince I was a baby, so yeah, I
think everyone's a good person.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
You're one of the kindest people I've ever met in
my whole life, which is whyyou're one of my dearest friends
, thank you.
But so that's interesting that,even though you didn't get it,
you were one of my friends whowas really there for me and
supportive of me and showed upand laid in bed with me when I
was recovering.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
But yeah, I think, just providing support.
You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to understand
it, but if you can support theperson in a real honest way, I
think that I mean I'm lucky.
When I decided to do this, Ihad a team of people rooting for
me and some naysayers, but Ididn't listen to those people.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
No, you can't, so fast forward a little bit.
So over the last I don't knowwe've known each other close to
10 years now, I think you.
You've heard me talk aboutkidneys a lot.
So, yes, you're getting like aconstant stream of kidney right
from me, but then somebody elsewalked into your life that
wanted to donate a kidney.
Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, so we now have a mutual friend named Dave and
he for a couple years he wasinvolved in my sphere, I guess I
would say, of my small business.
I knew, connecting him with youand just your vast network of
people, that you guys couldanswer any like questions, that
(25:25):
he had any hesitations or justfiguring out if he wanted to do
it.
I knew when Dave brought it uphe was in, he was, he was doing
it and I thought, well gosh, howcould someone come to this
decision and be just steadfast,not changing their mind?
Then you would know it was theright thing.
So after he went through hisdonation, it was an incredible
(25:49):
experience.
And then I had my own questions.
So now I've known two donorsand it just really got me
thinking, wow, I have like anunderstanding of this, I see the
value of doing this and I'mhealthy and I'm going to do it.
I knew I was going to do it.
You didn't want to be theasshole at breakfast with two
(26:10):
kidneys.
Yeah, I wanted to be part ofthe one kidney club so bad that.
I was like I got to do this andso, yeah, I guess I had already
made up in my mind that I wasgoing to do it before I sat down
and had like a realconversation with you
specifically about it.
It felt like I had all theinformation I was going to do it
(26:33):
, whatever it looked like.
I wanted to come out the otherside of it taking better care of
myself.
So now that I am on the otherside of it, make really good
decisions like eating a half apint of gelato on Easter Sunday.
But really, really consider whatI did and give a gift back to
(26:58):
myself of choosing to be ahealthy person overall.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
So your own health is playing into your decision to
donate.
You thought I can do this andcome out the other side as a
person who's very committed totaking care of themselves and of
your body.
Is that what you mean?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, but I didn't realize the extent of that.
I feel like I was prettyhealthy-ish before.
There were some things that Iwanted to cut out of my life and
now it's a no-brainer to makegood choices of everything that
goes into my body now and justbeing at the gym and physically
fit it.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Really I feel so much better now giving those gifts
to myself yeah, what was yourmotivation, would you say, for
wanting to donate to a stranger?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I think the motivation was giving a gift to
the universe and seeing what theuniverse did with it.
But yeah, so I.
I think my motivation had to dowith love, because, I mean, in
my opinion, all good things arerooted in love.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
That's what organ donation is.
It's love.
It's the kindest act of love.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, from the minute I decided, I never wavered.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
What a beautiful gift to be able to give your kidney
away in such a healthy statelike you did.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, it feels really good and, being on the other
side, I think I'm stillprocessing how special the
situation was for me.
What's interesting is that Idon't know the feelings of the
recipient, so I can onlycontinue to process what I feel
(28:33):
and I could pass away tomorrow,and in doing this, I feel very
privileged to have done it.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Yeah, it's a really interestingthing.
So doing it doesn't make you agood person.
It doesn't make you Superior.
(28:53):
Yeah, it doesn't make you agood person.
It doesn't make you Superior.
Yeah, it doesn't make youbetter than everybody.
It does make you want to talkabout kidneys all the time, and
so I have had many encounterssince then where I've had the
privilege of talking to otherpeople about their own kidney
issues.
(29:14):
I would say, and constantlysince my donation, northwestern
is the hospital that pops up forme.
I don't know if it's becausewe're in Chicagoland, but I
would say the people's doctor,dr Leventhal, is a pretty
amazing human being.
(29:34):
That's the other thing like onthe other side of it, right, the
support that I had atNorthwestern.
It was incredible.
My nurse, jared Harmon, gamechanger.
He got me up and out of bed andthen I never looked back from
there.
I was in a recumbent bike thenext day.
I don't know if this iseverybody's experience, but he
was such a good caregiver.
(29:55):
He brought out the parts of methat are super successful for
healing and, yeah, between himand all the social workers,
jennifer Cooper's bubbly energy,I mean you just it could not
have failed.
Like there was something in theair during my donor experience
(30:16):
and we didn't talk about yet thefact that I didn't know if I
was going to know my recipient.
So the idea of just giving yourkidney to whomever I believe is
a wonderful gift, and the coolthing about giving a gift is you
give it away and then you hopethat it can make someone's life
(30:39):
better.
So I believe that happened.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, what do you feel like you've gained from
donating a kidney to a stranger?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I think I have knowledge of ways to give back
that never occurred to me, andby that I mean I've participated
in the chain.
The connectivity of being partof a paired exchange so you just
don't know where it's going toend is a ripple effect.
(31:10):
So if you think about all thepeople each one of us has told
you, telling me what you weredoing to me as a virtual chain,
I would have never donated I canpretty much say that
wholeheartedly had I never metyou.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
And I never would have donated had my dad not
needed a liver and some familythat we don't know made the hard
decision to donate their lovedone's organs.
So like I love how you comeback to me and I point back
behind me and say, well, I didit because of that guy.
Right and it just shows that'sthe ripple effect, right Like
that's my dad's donor to my dad,to me, to Dave, to you.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
And here we are.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Like putting good ripples out there.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, I mean, weren't you and I are not part of a
paired exchange?
Yeah, I mean, weren't you and Iare not part of a paired
exchange?
You, Dave, and I are not partof a paired exchange, but we're
part of a chain of conversationthat carries on like going
anywhere.
Now, it's a part of me, it's apart of my dialogue.
(32:16):
I love talking about it,probably to a fault, you know.
I mean just even on the mostsimple level, right, you can
have a conversation.
I love talking about it,probably to a fault, you know, I
mean just even on the mostsimple level, right, you can
have a conversation withsomebody and they're like, wow,
you can give a kidney and stillbe alive.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I had no idea, right.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I mean, that is one of the I would say, the biggest
shockers of all of it.
Right, I went back to work andeveryone was shocked at my
physical, like stature.
Right, they're like whoa, youlook normal.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah, you look better than normal, in my opinion.
Thank, you.
And you look better than youdid a year ago.
You look great a year ago, butlike thank you.
Well, making your body aspristine as possible looks very
good on you.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Oh, thanks, well, I'm doing it from the inside.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
You are.
I'm glad it reflects from theoutside.
You are doing it from theinside out.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, yeah, I would say it's just.
This whole experience justchanged me.
I wasn't flawed or brokenbefore I did this.
It brought out all thebeautiful parts of me that
remind me of, like, who I wantto be in this world.
Yeah, so I want to be fun,though I don't want to sweat the
(33:31):
small stuff.
I want to work hard.
I want to surround myself withpeople that do good.
It really brought all thosethings to the surface that were
already there.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, do you think our friends are going to get
tired of going out and hearingabout kidneys?
Speaker 2 (33:47):
with us as we drink our Heineken Zeros.
Yes, I want to point out thatyou can drink after you have
this done.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
I'm no doctor, but you know yes alcohol is
processed in your liver, but wedo enjoy a Heineken.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Zero from time to time, yeah, I've traded my green
juices for margaritas.
No, you've traded yourmargaritas for your green juices
.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, see, there we go, I'm getting it all backwards
.
Well, getting to walk with youon your journey to donate was a
privilege for me.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Thank you.
Yeah, it was wonderful to haveI felt so supported.
I just really appreciated youto be a support to me and
especially to my husband, whoprobably processed it after the
fact that he wasn't thinkingabout it before.
But yeah, just I felt verysupported through the whole
(34:51):
experience.
So I am lucky that I got thisdone at Northwestern.
I just feel like, are theypaying you to there?
I'm not a paid employee ofNorthwestern.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Kat, what advice do you have for somebody who's
considering non-directeddonation?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Call me.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Okay, and we'll put Kat's phone number in the show
notes.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
I would say ask questions.
You know, get yourselfaffiliated with a person that
has done it.
I think is probably the mostcritical, because I was
fortunate enough to know twopeople that had gone through it
and I feel like I could haveasked either you or Dave any
(35:43):
question and you would havegiven me honest answers.
So yeah, I would say number oneget yourself in a group of
people that you can askquestions to and give yourself
time to plan and think about ifthis is really something you
want to do.
I would say don't put pressureon yourself for the why.
(36:05):
You'll be asked why a milliontimes, I'm sure, by your
transplant coordinator, and youmay not know why at first, but
you'll know why after.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Yeah, I love it, and I love what you said earlier too
about love, because I just feellike this all comes back to
love, and one of the things Ilike to think about is how much
we have to gain from loving astranger.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, love is critical, it's everything, and
when you do something like thisbased on love, it just is
magnified throughout the world.
I would say yeah Well, keepshining your bright light, my
friend.
Yeah, I can feel the sunshine.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Well, great.
So I'm hoping that our husbandsare done with dishes downstairs
.
I think it's safe to end thispodcast now and head on down.
Okay, thank you so much forbeing my guest.
Thank you.
And my friend.
Thank you, love you.
Sometimes I forget non-directeddonation is not all that common
and I forget that because Ispend a lot of time with people
(37:13):
like Kat and Josiah who donatedkidneys to strangers.
It's 100% normalized in mylittle bubble.
Do we sit around talking aboutkidneys, you might wonder.
Well, yeah, there's definitelysome of that.
But there's also an undeniablefeeling that these people are
part of a tribe, my tribe.
There is so frequently a sharedvalue system, an easy
(37:36):
person-to-person connection andan undeniable magnetism that
donors feel when they aretogether.
That part goes way beyondkidneys.
So if you find yourselfyearning to share a kidney and
you don't know why, know thatthere are people who feel that
way too.
Know that there's a communityof people out there trying
(37:58):
really, really hard to normalizekidney donation.
Come join us.
Just call CAT.
You can contact me too.
Check out our show notes formore information.
Thanks for listening.
I just want to feel thesunshine.
(38:23):
I just want to feel thesunshine.
I just want to feel thesunshine.
I share this life with you.
I share this life with you.
I share this life with you.
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