April 10, 2025 • 31 mins
How many extracurriculars are enough? Does my teen need to be a star athlete or a club president to stand out? What do colleges actually care about? In today’s webinar, Emmaline and I tackle these burning questions and more. We break down how to choose the right activities, what truly matters in the college admissions process, and how to help your teen find a balance that works. If you’ve ever wondered whether your student is doing too much (or too little), this conversation will give you the clarity and confidence you need.
The Insider’s Guide to College Visits: What Parents Must Know
Learn how to turn every campus visit into a strategic step toward admissions success. This free masterclass will show you how to make each visit count. Click here to get the replay: https://signeteducation.com/events/
Access free resources and learn more about Sheila and her team at Signet Education at signeteducation.com or on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheilaakbar/.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sheila Akbar (00:00):
Sort of like the developmental perspective on
(00:02):
extracurriculars, like, why dothey even exist? Is so kids can
meet other kids, and they candiscover their interests
together. They can learn to worktogether. They can build skills
that may or may not be directlyrelated to a future career or
academic path. But there's somuch brain development happening
at this time kids, you know thestereotype of high schools,
(00:24):
you're trying to figure yourselfout, like, how do I fit in? Is
all of a sudden such a bigconcern for these kids, and
that's where all of these thingsare out there in front of them
to help them grow as people andlearn about what they do care
about, and then learn about theworld.
(00:53):
Hey folks, welcome back to thepodcast. Today, we are trying a
slightly new format of a Q and Aepisode. I'm invited good friend
Emmaline to join us with some ofthe questions that she's hearing
from the parents that she'stalking to. I think that's all
the setup I'm going to give you.
We'll let you tune into theepisode. Emmaline, I want people
to know who you are. Beyondbeing just an amazing and
(01:17):
hilarious human being that Ilove having in my life. You are
also the person who talks toevery incoming client, anyone
who's interested in our service,who wants to know a little bit
more about what we do, or isready to say, sign me up with a
tutor or a consultant or acoach. You're the person they
talk to. What kind ofconversations are you having
with them?
Emmaline Cook (01:39):
I have a fair amount of anxious conversations.
I think parents think thatthey're going to come and
they're going to be the onlyones that are feeling behind or
stressed out, and I often amreminding them that that is not
true. I have very few parentswho call with utmost confidence
because they wouldn't be callingus if they felt that way. So
(02:00):
just, you know, this notion thatyou're probably not behind, but
what can we do now or next, orwhat are the next steps for this
process? That's kind of themain, I would say, vibe of the
phone calls is just kind ofwanting a roadmap or wanting a
guiding hand.
Sheila Akbar (02:19):
Yeah, yeah. And I think you're such a great person
to be able to provide that tothem, having, you know, the
educational experiences you'vehad, and just being able to sort
of witness it from the insideand out, and having this, you
know, deep training in inpsychology as well, like, gives
(02:39):
you another kind of perspectiveon this. And I'm really glad you
mentioned, like, the anxiety ofthese calls, because every
parent I've talked to is reallyconvinced that they're the only
one facing this challenge, ortheir kid is the only one acting
this way. And actually, oh man,it's so common. It's so common
(03:00):
for kids to be acting this way,because it's like, totally
developmentally normal, right?
And it's also totally normal forparents to be feeling like they
miss something or they'rebehind, because not that that's
a developmental thing, though,maybe, maybe that should be
studied. I don't know, but it'smore like nobody is
communicating clearly toparents.
Emmaline Cook (03:20):
Well, nobody's communicating clearly to
parents, and your teenager isnot going to communicate clearly
to you. I feel like goodrelationship, bad relationship
you have with your teenager.
They're not opening up theirsoul to you at dinner every
night, right? And I thinkparents feel like they either
their student or theythemselves, are really unsure
(03:41):
what the student should bestudying, or where they should
go, or what they should do nexton this kind of, you know, first
adulthood expedition, right?
They're not like we have to getpast this notion that you should
be able to have thoseconversations with your
teenager, because if you cangreat, but 97% of other people
(04:04):
need some other people to talkto their team.
Sheila Akbar (04:06):
Yeah, there are two things I'll say about that.
Andrea, our Director ofOperations, likes to say, Stop
shoulding on yourself, which Ilove, because should implies
there is shame, there iscriticism. You're not doing
something right, and that's justnot the case. So in describing
(04:26):
that situation, I think you saidthe word should, like, 12 times,
you know, but I mean you'reyou're repeating what they're
saying Right? And then the otherthing is, I like to trot out
this study in some of the talksI give, but it's sort of the
classic case of we didn't needresearch to tell us this. But a
couple years ago, someresearchers at Stanford did an
(04:48):
fMRI study of like, what'shappening in the brain when
teenagers are hearing theirparents voices and strangers
voices and what do you thinkhappened? And around age 13, a
certain kind of voice lit theirbrain up much more than before,
and it's the stranger's voice,right? And this is we know
(05:11):
teenagers are on their journeyof self discovery and
individuation, and all of asudden, new things are much more
exciting than familiar things,and sorry, parents, you're very
familiar, and you're no longerexciting, and they don't want to
listen to you.
Emmaline Cook (05:26):
And you're supposed to be you're supposed
to fill that role. That's not.
Yeah, right.
Sheila Akbar (05:30):
So it's not a sign that you have a bad relationship
with your kid. It's just yourkid is developing normally, and,
yeah, they're just not going tolisten to you anymore. And
that's totally normal. It sucksfor parents, but it's normal.
Okay with that out of the way,what we're going to do in
today's episode, and we'llcontinue to do over the the
course of the year, is to takesome of these questions that you
(05:52):
are hearing from parents andjust try to address them as
fully as we can on the podcast,because this is what people
really want to know. So give meone of the questions that you
tend to hear a lot these days.
Emmaline Cook (06:02):
I think the one that I been hearing lately, just
kind of, you know, we're in thespring, we're heading to summer,
is extracurriculars. How manyshould we be doing? What should
we be doing over the summer?
What should they be doing duringthe school year? Are they the
right ones, which I always findto be an interesting question.
Yeah. So I guess kind of wheredo extracurriculars fall in
terms of this, where my studenthas to be in every leadership
(06:25):
position, or should they bedoing the things that interest
them? Because maybe that'll leadto what they want to study. But
yeah, really, justextracurriculars. What do we do?
There? Are there correct ones?
How do I get into those?
Sheila Akbar (06:39):
All the questions about extracurriculars, yeah,
before we started recording, youmentioned parents are often
like, Oh, they're not doing muchat all, or they're doing three
varsity sports. Is that enough?
They're a chess grandmaster. Isthat enough?
Emmaline Cook (06:54):
Yea, they volunteer at four different
shelters.Are they the rightones?
Sheila Akbar (06:59):
Right. And what do you think is underneath that? I
mean, are they the right ones?
Is it enough? But like, whatelse do you think is motivating
that question?
Emmaline Cook (07:08):
I mean, kind of at surface, everyone thinks
everyone else is doing more thanthem, so and nobody ever asked
me if they're doing too many,which they perhaps should. But
yeah, there's this fear that,you know, like the these other
students are the president ofevery club. They started a
nonprofit. They have all thesethings going for them. And I
(07:29):
think it leaves out kids whohave jobs, kids who do want to
volunteer, kids who are doingresearch, kids who just like
drama club, like there's benefitto these organizations, but I
think underneath is, whensomeone's reading my college
application, are they gonna carewhat I was doing, or are they
(07:50):
gonna care that I was passionateabout it, or that I was good at
it? The notion of your child'sdevelopment is maybe kind of to
the side, and it's more aboutwhat should be on this paper
when I turn it in?
Sheila Akbar (08:03):
Yeah, as you're saying that, I feel like they're
looking for an understanding of,like, how are they going to
measure what this means? Like,how do you measure passion? We
don't have a scale for that,right? Like, how do you
translate that into a numberthat is meaningful, right?
Because obviously, and I've gotair quotes right now, you can't
(08:24):
see me, but obviously there's aformula, and all they translate
everything to a number, and analgorithm spits out a score, and
that's what determines who getsit. Of course, that is not how
it works at all, and it is aprocess that is, of course, you
know, AI enabled and technologyenabled, but is still a set of
decisions made by humans who aresubjective and who knows what
(08:49):
fairness really means in thisprocess. And I also like just
cringe at the thought of, howcan you reduce passion,
engagement, leadership,community, impact to a number,
right? We shouldn't be trying totranslate our lives into those
kinds of numbers, right? So whenpeople like we have a lot of
(09:13):
different kind of situationsthat we just kind of touched on
with all these questions, butlet's take them in a couple of
categories, like the kid whodoes one thing a lot, and it
might just be athletics, itmight be four different sports,
but that takes up all theirtime. Or they're a really
talented gymnast or a chessplayer, or, you know, we've had
(09:34):
people who are like, semiprofessional athletes, right?
And they're going to go off tothe Olympics, so they're
training 20 30, hours a week,right? There's no time for
anything else besides schoolhomework and then this other
thing, a lot of people refer tokids like that as, like, they've
got a real spike, like theirattention is like, on one thing,
(09:58):
and it is a big, big focus. Andyes, parents really do worry,
like, is that okay? And ofcourse, it's okay if your kid is
doing the things that they loveto do and they're finding
satisfaction in them, that'sgreat. But I will say I have a
lot of families who come to uswho are like, Oh, we're doing 25
(10:21):
hours a week of this training,let's say dance training. But
she's not interested in pursuingdance professionally. She's not
interested in getting recruitedonto a dance team. She's not
interested in studying dance atcollege, but it's just a thing
that we do. And I really wonder,why are we doing this so much
(10:42):
like, I mean, if they're really,truly enjoying it, great spend
all your free time doing it. Butif you're, like, training at a
competitive dance program anddoing like, but why? And I think
the why is really the questionat the heart of it, and that's
the thing that the collegeadmissions officers are trying
to understand, are you playingthe sport so competitively
(11:04):
because you want to continueplaying it competitively? Does
it bring you something in yourlife? Do you just love your
teammates? Is your parentforcing you what's happening
right? So I think especially forthose kids who have, like, one
big spike, really digging intothe why is so important and
making sure they're comfortablewith their reason why. Because
(11:26):
it might mean, once they diginto it, might mean, oh, I could
scale back and do this otherthing that I'm also curious
about, or it might mean, no,this is great. I'm going to
continue on this path because Iknow why I'm doing it. At the
other end of the spectrum, wehave kids who don't do much at
all. But it's interesting also,because the don't do much,
there's always something,
Emmaline Cook (11:47):
even if they're not doing not too much at all,
but a, b, c, d, e,
Sheila Akbar (11:50):
exactly you were saying. Also, like a lot of
times, people don't think thingsthat are done outside of the
school context count.
Emmaline Cook (11:58):
I think things like jobs and taking care of
family, volunteering at places.
I feel like those kind of getpushed aside because there's
this artificial hierarchy ofwhat extracurriculars you're
supposed to be doing, like, itshould be mock trial and it
should be debate.
Sheila Akbar (12:15):
Yeah, you should be able to win an award for it,
right?
Emmaline Cook (12:19):
I just keep thinking, there's two phrases we
use in Psych a lot, not all thatmatters can be measured, and not
everything that counts can becounted. And I think people
forget how important a job canbe, like, how much you can learn
from working at a pizza place.
Sheila Akbar (12:35):
Yeah, did you have a job when you were in high
school or in college? I workedat a pizza place. You did okay.
Emmaline Cook (12:41):
I worked at a pizza place during the year, and
then during the summer, I was acamp counselor. And a lot of the
pediatric psych things I'minterested in were born out of
things that happened with mycampers. And you know, I was a
counselor there because I was acamper there forever. But as you
were talking, I was thinkingabout the why. And, you know,
there is a why in there, like,there is, it did help me kind of
(13:03):
figure out what I wanted to do,but, but, yeah, I think there's,
there's kind of this made upsystem that parents, I think,
and it's not to anyone's fault,but I think there's this
societal hierarchy of whatyou're supposed to be doing, and
a lot of them happen to be theones that are, like, school
affiliated or school sponsored,but there's so much happening in
the world outside of the school.
Sheila Akbar (13:24):
Yeah, I worked at a Dairy Queen in high school. It
was more, I think, of almostlike a scare tactic that my
parents were like, You shouldwork in fast food so that you
know what is waiting for you ifyou don't get an education. But
it was great. I learned to workon a team. I learned to like
multitask. I learned to dealwith customers and like
(13:47):
screaming kids who just wantedtheir ice cream. It was a really
good experience, like learningexperience, and I also had fun,
and I made some money, and itwas, it was great. And I think
that, like unspoken hierarchy oflike, what you should be doing
or what counts, what mattersmore, has really done a
disservice to kids. A lot oftimes, parents, you know, we
(14:11):
talk a lot at Signet about like,we want to put the kid in the
driver's seat. We want to knowwhat they think and how they
want to solve this problem. Andthe parent is always like, well,
if they knew I wouldn't becalling if we wouldn't have this
problem anymore. And oftentimes,what we're trying to do is just
help the student understandtheir own agency and have a
little more confidence thattheir ideas could work. Maybe
(14:33):
you need a sounding board toshape them a little bit better.
But like you know, you're aburgeoning young adult, you are
gonna figure this out, and ajob, even volunteering or like
you were saying, caretaking forfamily members, whether they're
younger siblings or olderrelatives, or who knows, a
neighbor, teaches you so muchresponsibility and how to work
(14:54):
with other people in a real way,not just like school project way
right which? I mean, myexperience of group projects was
I always ended up doing all thework and everybody else got
credit for it, right? Which isnot really teamwork. So, yeah,
I'm really glad you brought thatup. I also see students who look
on the surface like if youcreated a resume for them, they
(15:15):
wouldn't have much to list, butthey are doing things like piano
lessons, or they're reallyactive in their church youth
group, or have a student whowrites music and spends hours a
day just noodling on theirguitar, writing music and
writing songs, and like thatstudent is so engaged and so
(15:36):
reflective and so perceptive,because they spend all this time
essentially writing poetry andcreating art that I think it
would be ridiculous to leavethat out of a college
application, but people feellike, if it's not externally
verifiable, if you're not doingit with like, the best school of
music, or you're not playing inthe orchestra, you're not
(15:56):
winning awards for it, then it'snot worth anything, right? And I
it's totally a real concern oflike, could people then just
make stuff up on their activitylist? Because there's no way to
verify that they're spendinghours doing this. Maybe they're
just playing video games andthey're going to say they're
writing music, but that's whereyou know, sharing those passions
with other people can be reallyimportant. Like, even just
(16:18):
talking to a teacher, maybe amusic teacher, about that kind
of stuff, getting involved involunteering to share those
passions with other people whomay not always otherwise be able
to experience some of thatstuff, or even reflecting on it
and writing about it in an essaylike, really does give it the
heft of, I don't know, somecompetitive program at Yale,
(16:39):
like, you know, whatever. Like,colleges don't care what it is
they they really want to knowthe why and the engagement and
what does it say about theperson?
Emmaline Cook (16:47):
Yeah, I think also people forget that. Like
this is something when peoplealways ask about, like, if you
could tell your younger self ifyou are really focused, really
engaged, really good at onething, it doesn't matter at all
what that is. I think there'shobbies that people are afraid
to really advertise, buteveryone thinks it's really cool
(17:10):
if you're really good atsomething. Yeah. And so I'm
thinking of a friend I hadgrowing up who's a really good
skeet shooter, okay, which Idon't I couldn't even really
tell you what that is, but hewas, like, nationally ranked,
ah, and then he went to Cornell.
So it's just like, if there'ssomething you're passionate
about that's allowed, you'reallowed to do that, and you
should do that.
Sheila Akbar (17:32):
Right. now i I'm hearing, like, the skeptical
parent voice in my head beinglike, well, what if the thing
they're passionate about isvideo games?
Emmaline Cook (17:41):
Yeah.
Sheila Akbar (17:42):
What do you think about that?
Emmaline Cook (17:43):
My first answer was, well, then they should code
them. I think that there has tobe space for your teenager to be
a person, and that's going toinclude socializing. And for a
lot of young people, video gamesare very social. And I think
maybe parents don't always seeit that way, but I know for a
(18:05):
lot of my male friends, playingvideo games are the only time
that they really even talk toeach other. And so doing an
intake kind of on what'shappening in video games, but
finding some other thingsoutside of it. But I don't think
that video games need to bedemonized, necessarily.
Sheila Akbar (18:22):
Right. I was also thinking like, is that really a
thing that they're passionateabout? Because if they are,
then, yeah, by all means, like,go design one, Go code one,
like, whatever.
Emmaline Cook (18:32):
There's e sports teams at schools, like.
Sheila Akbar (18:35):
Yeah. And it comes down to like, Well, how do you
define a passion? But there'slike, a difference between,
like, what you do in yourdowntime and what you do as like
a passion, like a thing thatyou're you're doing to hone a
skill, which I guess is true invideo games too. But hone a
skill, get exposed to potentialcareers and other interests,
(18:58):
meet people who share the sameinterests, like all of those
things you said this earlier, Ithink we should go back to it is
sort of like the developmentalperspective on extracurriculars,
like, why do they even exist? Isso kids can meet other kids, and
they can discover theirinterests together. They can
learn to work together. They canbuild skills that may or may not
(19:21):
be directly related to a futurecareer or academic path, but
there's so much braindevelopment happening at this
time. Kids, you know, thestereotype of high schools,
you're trying to figure yourselfout, like, how do I how do I fit
in? Is all of a sudden such abig concern for these kids, and
that's where all of these thingsare out there in front of them
(19:41):
to help them grow as people andlearn about what they do care
about and then learn about theworld. And somebody else told me
this. I think it was one of ourformer consultants that was like
kids who are interesting and dolike interesting things go on to
become interesting adults and. Ithink back to the
extracurriculars I was doing inhigh school. It was definitely a
(20:04):
way for me to stay out of thehome longer. My parents very
strict, and they would have letme just be out. But if I were at
this club meeting or that clubmeeting, like they were fine
with it, and a lot of thosethings I did extracurricularly,
I think, with the exception ofplaying on the soccer team or
things that I was not actuallyreally interested in just kind
of the wrong way to do it.
Emmaline Cook (20:24):
Yeah.
Sheila Akbar (20:25):
What were you involved in?
Emmaline Cook (20:26):
That's what I was just thinking of. I was a very
big dancer, and I ended up Ilived in the suburb, like an
hour outside of Boston, and Iwas going into Boston for dance,
and that was obviously taking upa lot of time. But I was
thinking about how my senioryear I did scale back how much I
was going to dance in Boston,because I wanted to do more
(20:48):
things with my drama club,because it was where my friends
were. And I'm realizing that thetiming of that probably was
centered around the I realizedthat I wasn't going to go to a
conservatory school. I did, youknow, kind of debate whether or
not dance was going to besomething I wanted to go to
school for, and when I made thedecision that it wasn't going to
be, scaling that back waseasier. I was in our national
(21:13):
honor society. But that kind of,you know, nerdy leadership stuff
is the stuff I liked, so it'shard to kind of pull those out,
but I know my brother wasinvolved with, you know, a
model, un sort of group, and Ihad no interest in that, and so
I didn't do that. But I wasearlier, also thinking about my
(21:35):
guidance counselor. My senioryear. I was saying that I wanted
to take AP math, but I wasalready taking all these other
APS, and she said, why? And Iwas like, great point. Like, all
she had to say to me was why.
And I was like, Yeah, I don't, Idon't know. I don't need to take
that. But there were definitelythings like, you think you're
supposed to do this, this andthis.
Sheila Akbar (21:57):
Yeah, which takes us full circle, I think, to
these questions we're hearingfrom parents is like, Yeah,
well, how is it evaluated? Andlike, is there a right number?
Nobody's asking you this, thoughthey should, how much is too
much? And also, you know, howmuch, how little is too little?
And I think the thing that Iwould say is, you want to make
(22:19):
sure your kid is involved insomething. It doesn't have to be
a school activity, it doesn'thave to be an every week thing,
but you want them to have someinterests and hobbies, and as a
person, yeah, exactly. And infact, if they don't have any
interest, maybe it's time for adepression screening
Emmaline Cook (22:35):
Like just a check in, right on something going on.
Sheila Akbar (22:38):
Yeah, people have interests, right? Even if
whatever you think about itsworthiness or not, people have
interests, right? And if thereare no interests, that might be
a sign that there's somethingelse going on. And I will say,
college admissions officers arelooking at the kind of activity
list that goes along with thecollege application to see if
(23:01):
the stories that the student istelling really bear out in their
day to day life, if a student isclaiming to really value helping
others, well, I would expect tosee some helping stuff in their
activity list, right? If they'rereally interested in scientific
inquiry, and you know, like,want to advance our knowledge
(23:22):
and theoretical physics, I wouldexpect there to be something
sort of along those lines.
Obviously, high school studentscan't access theoretical physics
research opportunities, but likesomething that shows that they
are really interested in thisprocess of inquiry and expanding
knowledge, right? So it's kindof like where you walk the walk.
But also they want to know whatthese students like to do in
(23:44):
their free time, because theycan project that forward and
say, Oh, they're really involvedin making their community a
better place. We love that atour school. We want people to
come here and make our communitya better place, or they're
really instrumental in, like,making sure people have fun.
They started the ping pong club.
They had a student, we had astudent a couple years ago who,
(24:07):
for no reason whatsoever, gotall these little like, these
little, they're like, fuzzy pompoms, and he put googly eyes on
them, and he hid like 200 ofthem around the school, apropos
of nothing, yep. And then justdelighted in watching people
(24:28):
find them in like, randomplaces. And it was like a thing,
right? That everybody was like,oh my god, I found this one. And
they were all collecting them.
They were trading color, like,that's amazing. I want a kid
like that at my school. Youknow? Yeah, right. And I don't
know how I think he ended upwriting an essay about it, but I
don't think he listed it on hisactivity list, like agent of
(24:48):
chaos, you know, or whatever onhis activity list. But they are
really trying to understand thewhole lives of these students,
and of course, it's likereduced. But like, if they are
spending time taking care ofsiblings or older relatives, or
they're working, whether it'sbecause they want exposure or
they need to make money tocontribute to the family, it
(25:09):
tells you a lot about a student,right? And that's what they're
really looking at. And so if youwant to try to be strategic
about it, like you want to makesure that whatever the student
is really about, they're livingthat in their daily lives,
right? And that's that's goingto happen in a lot of different
ways. The other thing I wouldadd to this is, how little is
(25:30):
too little? Going back to thatquestion, it's sort of like we
want to make sure a couple ofboxes are checked. Number one,
that there are interests, thatthey are doing something that is
at least meaningful to them intheir free time. Parent, you may
not think it's meaningful, butif they do, then that's great.
And then the third thing is thatthey I think it's really
important. And you know,reasonable people can disagree
(25:53):
on this, but I think it's reallyimportant that they're doing
things with other people, thatnot everything that they're
doing is just alone in theirroom, that there are places
where they are meaningfullyinteracting with other people,
working together with otherpeople, that could be like
joining a volunteer effort, orworking at a soup kitchen, like
they are interacting with otherpeople, or it could be a team
(26:16):
activity or a club activity or agroup kind of thing that I just
think that's really importantdevelopmentally, to give them
that kind of exposure. It alsosends a message that this person
is not going to show up on yourcampus and just live in their
dorm room with the doors closedall the time, like they are
going to be engaged andparticipating.
Emmaline Cook (26:37):
Yeah, and I will say also, we're still in the era
of kids who were in reallyimportant developmental stages
during COVID. So being involvedin things, and, you know,
wanting to build community, andhaving even the inkling to be a
part of community is somethingthat's has become not the
(26:58):
default, right? It is no longerassumed that people kind of grew
up in clubs, in organizationswith their friends all the time,
the people who are applying toschools in the next couple years
were in middle school. That's anincredibly important time to
figure out how community worksand figure out how groups of
people work. And I correct me ifI'm wrong, but I do feel that
(27:21):
colleges are trying to make surethat that came up eventually,
because it wasn't an option forthem for a while.
Sheila Akbar (27:30):
Right, for sure, and I think that such a good
point to bring up like I don'tknow if it's a blanket setback
for everybody, but it was ahurdle for everybody, and some
people are still getting overthat hurdle right, like the
social anxiety, the schoolrefusal, like all of these
things that came out of thattime. There are some kids who
(27:50):
are still working through itright.
Emmaline Cook (27:53):
And people really underestimate it, yeah.
Sheila Akbar (27:56):
And there are all these reports about it's like
showing up in math. It's showingup in whatever
Emmaline Cook (27:59):
Right.
Sheila Akbar (27:59):
Like, it's also showing up in these, like,
social ways. I was listening toJonathan Hape on a podcast
recently, and he was someone wasplaying devil's advocate with
him. Was saying, like, oh, Gen Zdoesn't drink as much and they
don't the rates of teenpregnancy have have fallen so
much, like, all of these sort ofsignals that Gen Z is, like,
(28:20):
somehow more wise not doingthese, like, reckless teenage
things. And Jonathan hate waslike, Well, yeah, because they
grew up on smartphones, theyweren't doing things with each
other, they weren't having sex,they were not having parties.
They're like, they're not doingthose things because they're
isolated. And so it's, it's agive and take, right? Of course,
we don't want addictivebehaviors and, like, dangerous
(28:41):
things to happen. But teenagersare seeking risk, right? It's,
it's how they figure out whattheir boundaries are, and
they're, you know, tasting life.
I think about when my son was anewborn, like, he wanted to put
everything in his mouth, wantedto taste everything. Is how he,
like, sensed the world, right?
And teenagers do that throughtesting limits, right? Yeah,
(29:02):
they're really just tryingthings on. Okay? We went in a
lot of really interestingdirections from this seemingly
simple question of, like, whatextracurriculars should they do
and how many? But I hope thatthis gives listeners, like, an
idea of, like, why there is noanswer to that question, but
like, there's no structure.
There's no structure. There's nochecklist, though, like some
guiding principles would be, aswe just said, have some
(29:24):
interests, spend your free time,meaningly, hang out with other
people.
Emmaline Cook (29:31):
Allow a passion.
Sheila Akbar (29:32):
and think about the why. Whatever it is
excellent. Well, I'm excited tocontinue doing more of these.
Thank you for joining me.
Emmaline.
Emmaline Cook (29:39):
Thanks for having me.
Sheila Akbar (29:42):
Well, that was certainly a lot of fun, and I
really appreciate that theepisode is not just me talking
the whole time as always. If youhave questions that you would
like to see us tackle, pleasesend them in. Always happy to to
hear what you're thinking aboutand see what perspective I can
offer from my position. I. Andplease do, please do tune in for
(30:04):
our April session, our Aprilwebinar, which is going to be on
college visits, and how thatplays into your college
admissions strategy. I think alot of people just kind of know,
oh, we got to do some collegevisits, but they don't realize
you can do them before it's timeto apply. And in fact, that
might actually give your studentsome points of reference to help
(30:27):
you build their college list.
And also the kinds of things youlearn or ask about on those
tours and visits can really helpyou define your narrative
strategy and all kinds of waysto pull that through. So it's
not just this thing you do, butit is deeply integrated into how
you approach the collegeprocess. So I hope you will join
(30:49):
us for that. You can find outmore at Signet
education.com/events, All right,everybody. We will see you next
time. Thank you so much.
Sort of like the developmental perspective on
(00:02):
extracurriculars, like, why dothey even exist? Is so kids can
meet other kids, and they candiscover their interests
together. They can learn to worktogether. They can build skills
that may or may not be directlyrelated to a future career or
academic path. But there's somuch brain development happening
at this time kids, you know thestereotype of high schools,
(00:24):
you're trying to figure yourselfout, like, how do I fit in? Is
all of a sudden such a bigconcern for these kids, and
that's where all of these thingsare out there in front of them
to help them grow as people andlearn about what they do care
about, and then learn about theworld.
(00:53):
Hey folks, welcome back to thepodcast. Today, we are trying a
slightly new format of a Q and Aepisode. I'm invited good friend
Emmaline to join us with some ofthe questions that she's hearing
from the parents that she'stalking to. I think that's all
the setup I'm going to give you.
We'll let you tune into theepisode. Emmaline, I want people
to know who you are. Beyondbeing just an amazing and
(01:17):
hilarious human being that Ilove having in my life. You are
also the person who talks toevery incoming client, anyone
who's interested in our service,who wants to know a little bit
more about what we do, or isready to say, sign me up with a
tutor or a consultant or acoach. You're the person they
talk to. What kind ofconversations are you having
with them?
Emmaline Cook (01:39):
I have a fair amount of anxious conversations.
I think parents think thatthey're going to come and
they're going to be the onlyones that are feeling behind or
stressed out, and I often amreminding them that that is not
true. I have very few parentswho call with utmost confidence
because they wouldn't be callingus if they felt that way. So
(02:00):
just, you know, this notion thatyou're probably not behind, but
what can we do now or next, orwhat are the next steps for this
process? That's kind of themain, I would say, vibe of the
phone calls is just kind ofwanting a roadmap or wanting a
guiding hand.
Sheila Akbar (02:19):
Yeah, yeah. And I think you're such a great person
to be able to provide that tothem, having, you know, the
educational experiences you'vehad, and just being able to sort
of witness it from the insideand out, and having this, you
know, deep training in inpsychology as well, like, gives
(02:39):
you another kind of perspectiveon this. And I'm really glad you
mentioned, like, the anxiety ofthese calls, because every
parent I've talked to is reallyconvinced that they're the only
one facing this challenge, ortheir kid is the only one acting
this way. And actually, oh man,it's so common. It's so common
(03:00):
for kids to be acting this way,because it's like, totally
developmentally normal, right?
And it's also totally normal forparents to be feeling like they
miss something or they'rebehind, because not that that's
a developmental thing, though,maybe, maybe that should be
studied. I don't know, but it'smore like nobody is
communicating clearly toparents.
Emmaline Cook (03:20):
Well, nobody's communicating clearly to
parents, and your teenager isnot going to communicate clearly
to you. I feel like goodrelationship, bad relationship
you have with your teenager.
They're not opening up theirsoul to you at dinner every
night, right? And I thinkparents feel like they either
their student or theythemselves, are really unsure
(03:41):
what the student should bestudying, or where they should
go, or what they should do nexton this kind of, you know, first
adulthood expedition, right?
They're not like we have to getpast this notion that you should
be able to have thoseconversations with your
teenager, because if you cangreat, but 97% of other people
(04:04):
need some other people to talkto their team.
Sheila Akbar (04:06):
Yeah, there are two things I'll say about that.
Andrea, our Director ofOperations, likes to say, Stop
shoulding on yourself, which Ilove, because should implies
there is shame, there iscriticism. You're not doing
something right, and that's justnot the case. So in describing
(04:26):
that situation, I think you saidthe word should, like, 12 times,
you know, but I mean you'reyou're repeating what they're
saying Right? And then the otherthing is, I like to trot out
this study in some of the talksI give, but it's sort of the
classic case of we didn't needresearch to tell us this. But a
couple years ago, someresearchers at Stanford did an
(04:48):
fMRI study of like, what'shappening in the brain when
teenagers are hearing theirparents voices and strangers
voices and what do you thinkhappened? And around age 13, a
certain kind of voice lit theirbrain up much more than before,
and it's the stranger's voice,right? And this is we know
(05:11):
teenagers are on their journeyof self discovery and
individuation, and all of asudden, new things are much more
exciting than familiar things,and sorry, parents, you're very
familiar, and you're no longerexciting, and they don't want to
listen to you.
Emmaline Cook (05:26):
And you're supposed to be you're supposed
to fill that role. That's not.
Yeah, right.
Sheila Akbar (05:30):
So it's not a sign that you have a bad relationship
with your kid. It's just yourkid is developing normally, and,
yeah, they're just not going tolisten to you anymore. And
that's totally normal. It sucksfor parents, but it's normal.
Okay with that out of the way,what we're going to do in
today's episode, and we'llcontinue to do over the the
course of the year, is to takesome of these questions that you
(05:52):
are hearing from parents andjust try to address them as
fully as we can on the podcast,because this is what people
really want to know. So give meone of the questions that you
tend to hear a lot these days.
Emmaline Cook (06:02):
I think the one that I been hearing lately, just
kind of, you know, we're in thespring, we're heading to summer,
is extracurriculars. How manyshould we be doing? What should
we be doing over the summer?
What should they be doing duringthe school year? Are they the
right ones, which I always findto be an interesting question.
Yeah. So I guess kind of wheredo extracurriculars fall in
terms of this, where my studenthas to be in every leadership
(06:25):
position, or should they bedoing the things that interest
them? Because maybe that'll leadto what they want to study. But
yeah, really, justextracurriculars. What do we do?
There? Are there correct ones?
How do I get into those?
Sheila Akbar (06:39):
All the questions about extracurriculars, yeah,
before we started recording, youmentioned parents are often
like, Oh, they're not doing muchat all, or they're doing three
varsity sports. Is that enough?
They're a chess grandmaster. Isthat enough?
Emmaline Cook (06:54):
Yea, they volunteer at four different
shelters.Are they the rightones?
Sheila Akbar (06:59):
Right. And what do you think is underneath that? I
mean, are they the right ones?
Is it enough? But like, whatelse do you think is motivating
that question?
Emmaline Cook (07:08):
I mean, kind of at surface, everyone thinks
everyone else is doing more thanthem, so and nobody ever asked
me if they're doing too many,which they perhaps should. But
yeah, there's this fear that,you know, like the these other
students are the president ofevery club. They started a
nonprofit. They have all thesethings going for them. And I
(07:29):
think it leaves out kids whohave jobs, kids who do want to
volunteer, kids who are doingresearch, kids who just like
drama club, like there's benefitto these organizations, but I
think underneath is, whensomeone's reading my college
application, are they gonna carewhat I was doing, or are they
(07:50):
gonna care that I was passionateabout it, or that I was good at
it? The notion of your child'sdevelopment is maybe kind of to
the side, and it's more aboutwhat should be on this paper
when I turn it in?
Sheila Akbar (08:03):
Yeah, as you're saying that, I feel like they're
looking for an understanding of,like, how are they going to
measure what this means? Like,how do you measure passion? We
don't have a scale for that,right? Like, how do you
translate that into a numberthat is meaningful, right?
Because obviously, and I've gotair quotes right now, you can't
(08:24):
see me, but obviously there's aformula, and all they translate
everything to a number, and analgorithm spits out a score, and
that's what determines who getsit. Of course, that is not how
it works at all, and it is aprocess that is, of course, you
know, AI enabled and technologyenabled, but is still a set of
decisions made by humans who aresubjective and who knows what
(08:49):
fairness really means in thisprocess. And I also like just
cringe at the thought of, howcan you reduce passion,
engagement, leadership,community, impact to a number,
right? We shouldn't be trying totranslate our lives into those
kinds of numbers, right? So whenpeople like we have a lot of
(09:13):
different kind of situationsthat we just kind of touched on
with all these questions, butlet's take them in a couple of
categories, like the kid whodoes one thing a lot, and it
might just be athletics, itmight be four different sports,
but that takes up all theirtime. Or they're a really
talented gymnast or a chessplayer, or, you know, we've had
(09:34):
people who are like, semiprofessional athletes, right?
And they're going to go off tothe Olympics, so they're
training 20 30, hours a week,right? There's no time for
anything else besides schoolhomework and then this other
thing, a lot of people refer tokids like that as, like, they've
got a real spike, like theirattention is like, on one thing,
(09:58):
and it is a big, big focus. Andyes, parents really do worry,
like, is that okay? And ofcourse, it's okay if your kid is
doing the things that they loveto do and they're finding
satisfaction in them, that'sgreat. But I will say I have a
lot of families who come to uswho are like, Oh, we're doing 25
(10:21):
hours a week of this training,let's say dance training. But
she's not interested in pursuingdance professionally. She's not
interested in getting recruitedonto a dance team. She's not
interested in studying dance atcollege, but it's just a thing
that we do. And I really wonder,why are we doing this so much
(10:42):
like, I mean, if they're really,truly enjoying it, great spend
all your free time doing it. Butif you're, like, training at a
competitive dance program anddoing like, but why? And I think
the why is really the questionat the heart of it, and that's
the thing that the collegeadmissions officers are trying
to understand, are you playingthe sport so competitively
(11:04):
because you want to continueplaying it competitively? Does
it bring you something in yourlife? Do you just love your
teammates? Is your parentforcing you what's happening
right? So I think especially forthose kids who have, like, one
big spike, really digging intothe why is so important and
making sure they're comfortablewith their reason why. Because
(11:26):
it might mean, once they diginto it, might mean, oh, I could
scale back and do this otherthing that I'm also curious
about, or it might mean, no,this is great. I'm going to
continue on this path because Iknow why I'm doing it. At the
other end of the spectrum, wehave kids who don't do much at
all. But it's interesting also,because the don't do much,
there's always something,
Emmaline Cook (11:47):
even if they're not doing not too much at all,
but a, b, c, d, e,
Sheila Akbar (11:50):
exactly you were saying. Also, like a lot of
times, people don't think thingsthat are done outside of the
school context count.
Emmaline Cook (11:58):
I think things like jobs and taking care of
family, volunteering at places.
I feel like those kind of getpushed aside because there's
this artificial hierarchy ofwhat extracurriculars you're
supposed to be doing, like, itshould be mock trial and it
should be debate.
Sheila Akbar (12:15):
Yeah, you should be able to win an award for it,
right?
Emmaline Cook (12:19):
I just keep thinking, there's two phrases we
use in Psych a lot, not all thatmatters can be measured, and not
everything that counts can becounted. And I think people
forget how important a job canbe, like, how much you can learn
from working at a pizza place.
Sheila Akbar (12:35):
Yeah, did you have a job when you were in high
school or in college? I workedat a pizza place. You did okay.
Emmaline Cook (12:41):
I worked at a pizza place during the year, and
then during the summer, I was acamp counselor. And a lot of the
pediatric psych things I'minterested in were born out of
things that happened with mycampers. And you know, I was a
counselor there because I was acamper there forever. But as you
were talking, I was thinkingabout the why. And, you know,
there is a why in there, like,there is, it did help me kind of
(13:03):
figure out what I wanted to do,but, but, yeah, I think there's,
there's kind of this made upsystem that parents, I think,
and it's not to anyone's fault,but I think there's this
societal hierarchy of whatyou're supposed to be doing, and
a lot of them happen to be theones that are, like, school
affiliated or school sponsored,but there's so much happening in
the world outside of the school.
Sheila Akbar (13:24):
Yeah, I worked at a Dairy Queen in high school. It
was more, I think, of almostlike a scare tactic that my
parents were like, You shouldwork in fast food so that you
know what is waiting for you ifyou don't get an education. But
it was great. I learned to workon a team. I learned to like
multitask. I learned to dealwith customers and like
(13:47):
screaming kids who just wantedtheir ice cream. It was a really
good experience, like learningexperience, and I also had fun,
and I made some money, and itwas, it was great. And I think
that, like unspoken hierarchy oflike, what you should be doing
or what counts, what mattersmore, has really done a
disservice to kids. A lot oftimes, parents, you know, we
(14:11):
talk a lot at Signet about like,we want to put the kid in the
driver's seat. We want to knowwhat they think and how they
want to solve this problem. Andthe parent is always like, well,
if they knew I wouldn't becalling if we wouldn't have this
problem anymore. And oftentimes,what we're trying to do is just
help the student understandtheir own agency and have a
little more confidence thattheir ideas could work. Maybe
(14:33):
you need a sounding board toshape them a little bit better.
But like you know, you're aburgeoning young adult, you are
gonna figure this out, and ajob, even volunteering or like
you were saying, caretaking forfamily members, whether they're
younger siblings or olderrelatives, or who knows, a
neighbor, teaches you so muchresponsibility and how to work
(14:54):
with other people in a real way,not just like school project way
right which? I mean, myexperience of group projects was
I always ended up doing all thework and everybody else got
credit for it, right? Which isnot really teamwork. So, yeah,
I'm really glad you brought thatup. I also see students who look
on the surface like if youcreated a resume for them, they
(15:15):
wouldn't have much to list, butthey are doing things like piano
lessons, or they're reallyactive in their church youth
group, or have a student whowrites music and spends hours a
day just noodling on theirguitar, writing music and
writing songs, and like thatstudent is so engaged and so
(15:36):
reflective and so perceptive,because they spend all this time
essentially writing poetry andcreating art that I think it
would be ridiculous to leavethat out of a college
application, but people feellike, if it's not externally
verifiable, if you're not doingit with like, the best school of
music, or you're not playing inthe orchestra, you're not
(15:56):
winning awards for it, then it'snot worth anything, right? And I
it's totally a real concern oflike, could people then just
make stuff up on their activitylist? Because there's no way to
verify that they're spendinghours doing this. Maybe they're
just playing video games andthey're going to say they're
writing music, but that's whereyou know, sharing those passions
with other people can be reallyimportant. Like, even just
(16:18):
talking to a teacher, maybe amusic teacher, about that kind
of stuff, getting involved involunteering to share those
passions with other people whomay not always otherwise be able
to experience some of thatstuff, or even reflecting on it
and writing about it in an essaylike, really does give it the
heft of, I don't know, somecompetitive program at Yale,
(16:39):
like, you know, whatever. Like,colleges don't care what it is
they they really want to knowthe why and the engagement and
what does it say about theperson?
Emmaline Cook (16:47):
Yeah, I think also people forget that. Like
this is something when peoplealways ask about, like, if you
could tell your younger self ifyou are really focused, really
engaged, really good at onething, it doesn't matter at all
what that is. I think there'shobbies that people are afraid
to really advertise, buteveryone thinks it's really cool
(17:10):
if you're really good atsomething. Yeah. And so I'm
thinking of a friend I hadgrowing up who's a really good
skeet shooter, okay, which Idon't I couldn't even really
tell you what that is, but hewas, like, nationally ranked,
ah, and then he went to Cornell.
So it's just like, if there'ssomething you're passionate
about that's allowed, you'reallowed to do that, and you
should do that.
Sheila Akbar (17:32):
Right. now i I'm hearing, like, the skeptical
parent voice in my head beinglike, well, what if the thing
they're passionate about isvideo games?
Emmaline Cook (17:41):
Yeah.
Sheila Akbar (17:42):
What do you think about that?
Emmaline Cook (17:43):
My first answer was, well, then they should code
them. I think that there has tobe space for your teenager to be
a person, and that's going toinclude socializing. And for a
lot of young people, video gamesare very social. And I think
maybe parents don't always seeit that way, but I know for a
(18:05):
lot of my male friends, playingvideo games are the only time
that they really even talk toeach other. And so doing an
intake kind of on what'shappening in video games, but
finding some other thingsoutside of it. But I don't think
that video games need to bedemonized, necessarily.
Sheila Akbar (18:22):
Right. I was also thinking like, is that really a
thing that they're passionateabout? Because if they are,
then, yeah, by all means, like,go design one, Go code one,
like, whatever.
Emmaline Cook (18:32):
There's e sports teams at schools, like.
Sheila Akbar (18:35):
Yeah. And it comes down to like, Well, how do you
define a passion? But there'slike, a difference between,
like, what you do in yourdowntime and what you do as like
a passion, like a thing thatyou're you're doing to hone a
skill, which I guess is true invideo games too. But hone a
skill, get exposed to potentialcareers and other interests,
(18:58):
meet people who share the sameinterests, like all of those
things you said this earlier, Ithink we should go back to it is
sort of like the developmentalperspective on extracurriculars,
like, why do they even exist? Isso kids can meet other kids, and
they can discover theirinterests together. They can
learn to work together. They canbuild skills that may or may not
(19:21):
be directly related to a futurecareer or academic path, but
there's so much braindevelopment happening at this
time. Kids, you know, thestereotype of high schools,
you're trying to figure yourselfout, like, how do I how do I fit
in? Is all of a sudden such abig concern for these kids, and
that's where all of these thingsare out there in front of them
(19:41):
to help them grow as people andlearn about what they do care
about and then learn about theworld. And somebody else told me
this. I think it was one of ourformer consultants that was like
kids who are interesting and dolike interesting things go on to
become interesting adults and. Ithink back to the
extracurriculars I was doing inhigh school. It was definitely a
(20:04):
way for me to stay out of thehome longer. My parents very
strict, and they would have letme just be out. But if I were at
this club meeting or that clubmeeting, like they were fine
with it, and a lot of thosethings I did extracurricularly,
I think, with the exception ofplaying on the soccer team or
things that I was not actuallyreally interested in just kind
of the wrong way to do it.
Emmaline Cook (20:24):
Yeah.
Sheila Akbar (20:25):
What were you involved in?
Emmaline Cook (20:26):
That's what I was just thinking of. I was a very
big dancer, and I ended up Ilived in the suburb, like an
hour outside of Boston, and Iwas going into Boston for dance,
and that was obviously taking upa lot of time. But I was
thinking about how my senioryear I did scale back how much I
was going to dance in Boston,because I wanted to do more
(20:48):
things with my drama club,because it was where my friends
were. And I'm realizing that thetiming of that probably was
centered around the I realizedthat I wasn't going to go to a
conservatory school. I did, youknow, kind of debate whether or
not dance was going to besomething I wanted to go to
school for, and when I made thedecision that it wasn't going to
be, scaling that back waseasier. I was in our national
(21:13):
honor society. But that kind of,you know, nerdy leadership stuff
is the stuff I liked, so it'shard to kind of pull those out,
but I know my brother wasinvolved with, you know, a
model, un sort of group, and Ihad no interest in that, and so
I didn't do that. But I wasearlier, also thinking about my
(21:35):
guidance counselor. My senioryear. I was saying that I wanted
to take AP math, but I wasalready taking all these other
APS, and she said, why? And Iwas like, great point. Like, all
she had to say to me was why.
And I was like, Yeah, I don't, Idon't know. I don't need to take
that. But there were definitelythings like, you think you're
supposed to do this, this andthis.
Sheila Akbar (21:57):
Yeah, which takes us full circle, I think, to
these questions we're hearingfrom parents is like, Yeah,
well, how is it evaluated? Andlike, is there a right number?
Nobody's asking you this, thoughthey should, how much is too
much? And also, you know, howmuch, how little is too little?
And I think the thing that Iwould say is, you want to make
(22:19):
sure your kid is involved insomething. It doesn't have to be
a school activity, it doesn'thave to be an every week thing,
but you want them to have someinterests and hobbies, and as a
person, yeah, exactly. And infact, if they don't have any
interest, maybe it's time for adepression screening
Emmaline Cook (22:35):
Like just a check in, right on something going on.
Sheila Akbar (22:38):
Yeah, people have interests, right? Even if
whatever you think about itsworthiness or not, people have
interests, right? And if thereare no interests, that might be
a sign that there's somethingelse going on. And I will say,
college admissions officers arelooking at the kind of activity
list that goes along with thecollege application to see if
(23:01):
the stories that the student istelling really bear out in their
day to day life, if a student isclaiming to really value helping
others, well, I would expect tosee some helping stuff in their
activity list, right? If they'rereally interested in scientific
inquiry, and you know, like,want to advance our knowledge
(23:22):
and theoretical physics, I wouldexpect there to be something
sort of along those lines.
Obviously, high school studentscan't access theoretical physics
research opportunities, but likesomething that shows that they
are really interested in thisprocess of inquiry and expanding
knowledge, right? So it's kindof like where you walk the walk.
But also they want to know whatthese students like to do in
(23:44):
their free time, because theycan project that forward and
say, Oh, they're really involvedin making their community a
better place. We love that atour school. We want people to
come here and make our communitya better place, or they're
really instrumental in, like,making sure people have fun.
They started the ping pong club.
They had a student, we had astudent a couple years ago who,
(24:07):
for no reason whatsoever, gotall these little like, these
little, they're like, fuzzy pompoms, and he put googly eyes on
them, and he hid like 200 ofthem around the school, apropos
of nothing, yep. And then justdelighted in watching people
(24:28):
find them in like, randomplaces. And it was like a thing,
right? That everybody was like,oh my god, I found this one. And
they were all collecting them.
They were trading color, like,that's amazing. I want a kid
like that at my school. Youknow? Yeah, right. And I don't
know how I think he ended upwriting an essay about it, but I
don't think he listed it on hisactivity list, like agent of
(24:48):
chaos, you know, or whatever onhis activity list. But they are
really trying to understand thewhole lives of these students,
and of course, it's likereduced. But like, if they are
spending time taking care ofsiblings or older relatives, or
they're working, whether it'sbecause they want exposure or
they need to make money tocontribute to the family, it
(25:09):
tells you a lot about a student,right? And that's what they're
really looking at. And so if youwant to try to be strategic
about it, like you want to makesure that whatever the student
is really about, they're livingthat in their daily lives,
right? And that's that's goingto happen in a lot of different
ways. The other thing I wouldadd to this is, how little is
(25:30):
too little? Going back to thatquestion, it's sort of like we
want to make sure a couple ofboxes are checked. Number one,
that there are interests, thatthey are doing something that is
at least meaningful to them intheir free time. Parent, you may
not think it's meaningful, butif they do, then that's great.
And then the third thing is thatthey I think it's really
important. And you know,reasonable people can disagree
(25:53):
on this, but I think it's reallyimportant that they're doing
things with other people, thatnot everything that they're
doing is just alone in theirroom, that there are places
where they are meaningfullyinteracting with other people,
working together with otherpeople, that could be like
joining a volunteer effort, orworking at a soup kitchen, like
they are interacting with otherpeople, or it could be a team
(26:16):
activity or a club activity or agroup kind of thing that I just
think that's really importantdevelopmentally, to give them
that kind of exposure. It alsosends a message that this person
is not going to show up on yourcampus and just live in their
dorm room with the doors closedall the time, like they are
going to be engaged andparticipating.
Emmaline Cook (26:37):
Yeah, and I will say also, we're still in the era
of kids who were in reallyimportant developmental stages
during COVID. So being involvedin things, and, you know,
wanting to build community, andhaving even the inkling to be a
part of community is somethingthat's has become not the
(26:58):
default, right? It is no longerassumed that people kind of grew
up in clubs, in organizationswith their friends all the time,
the people who are applying toschools in the next couple years
were in middle school. That's anincredibly important time to
figure out how community worksand figure out how groups of
people work. And I correct me ifI'm wrong, but I do feel that
(27:21):
colleges are trying to make surethat that came up eventually,
because it wasn't an option forthem for a while.
Sheila Akbar (27:30):
Right, for sure, and I think that such a good
point to bring up like I don'tknow if it's a blanket setback
for everybody, but it was ahurdle for everybody, and some
people are still getting overthat hurdle right, like the
social anxiety, the schoolrefusal, like all of these
things that came out of thattime. There are some kids who
(27:50):
are still working through itright.
Emmaline Cook (27:53):
And people really underestimate it, yeah.
Sheila Akbar (27:56):
And there are all these reports about it's like
showing up in math. It's showingup in whatever
Emmaline Cook (27:59):
Right.
Sheila Akbar (27:59):
Like, it's also showing up in these, like,
social ways. I was listening toJonathan Hape on a podcast
recently, and he was someone wasplaying devil's advocate with
him. Was saying, like, oh, Gen Zdoesn't drink as much and they
don't the rates of teenpregnancy have have fallen so
much, like, all of these sort ofsignals that Gen Z is, like,
(28:20):
somehow more wise not doingthese, like, reckless teenage
things. And Jonathan hate waslike, Well, yeah, because they
grew up on smartphones, theyweren't doing things with each
other, they weren't having sex,they were not having parties.
They're like, they're not doingthose things because they're
isolated. And so it's, it's agive and take, right? Of course,
we don't want addictivebehaviors and, like, dangerous
(28:41):
things to happen. But teenagersare seeking risk, right? It's,
it's how they figure out whattheir boundaries are, and
they're, you know, tasting life.
I think about when my son was anewborn, like, he wanted to put
everything in his mouth, wantedto taste everything. Is how he,
like, sensed the world, right?
And teenagers do that throughtesting limits, right? Yeah,
(29:02):
they're really just tryingthings on. Okay? We went in a
lot of really interestingdirections from this seemingly
simple question of, like, whatextracurriculars should they do
and how many? But I hope thatthis gives listeners, like, an
idea of, like, why there is noanswer to that question, but
like, there's no structure.
There's no structure. There's nochecklist, though, like some
guiding principles would be, aswe just said, have some
(29:24):
interests, spend your free time,meaningly, hang out with other
people.
Emmaline Cook (29:31):
Allow a passion.
Sheila Akbar (29:32):
and think about the why. Whatever it is
excellent. Well, I'm excited tocontinue doing more of these.
Thank you for joining me.
Emmaline.
Emmaline Cook (29:39):
Thanks for having me.
Sheila Akbar (29:42):
Well, that was certainly a lot of fun, and I
really appreciate that theepisode is not just me talking
the whole time as always. If youhave questions that you would
like to see us tackle, pleasesend them in. Always happy to to
hear what you're thinking aboutand see what perspective I can
offer from my position. I. Andplease do, please do tune in for
(30:04):
our April session, our Aprilwebinar, which is going to be on
college visits, and how thatplays into your college
admissions strategy. I think alot of people just kind of know,
oh, we got to do some collegevisits, but they don't realize
you can do them before it's timeto apply. And in fact, that
might actually give your studentsome points of reference to help
(30:27):
you build their college list.
And also the kinds of things youlearn or ask about on those
tours and visits can really helpyou define your narrative
strategy and all kinds of waysto pull that through. So it's
not just this thing you do, butit is deeply integrated into how
you approach the collegeprocess. So I hope you will join
(30:49):
us for that. You can find outmore at Signet
education.com/events, All right,everybody. We will see you next
time. Thank you so much.
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