January 15, 2025 • 28 mins
Happy New Year! In this year’s first episode, I sit down with Chris, the Director of College Counseling at Stony Brook School, and Lisa, a high school counselor, to discuss the mental health challenges Asian American students face. We explore how early support and open conversations with parents can make a difference. Tune in to discover practical ways to support our students and create a healthier path forward.
Bio
Chris Loo has been working with young people for most of her career. For the last 13 years, she has been a college counselor. She is currently Director of College Counseling at The Stony Brook School, where she works with a diverse student population. Outside of work, she is on the Board of Directors for NACAC, a member of both the NACAC and ACCIS AAPI SIG and a faculty member of NYSACAC’s Summer Institute. Her interest in exploring and discussing issues of diversity stem from her own experience as a Korean-American immigrant and her work with students from all over the world at SBS, where she serves as the faculty advisor for the Asian Student Union. She is a frequent speaker at conferences and workshops, especially on topics about diversity, equity and mental health. She holds both a B.A. in American History and a Masters in Social Work from the University of Pennsylvania. Follow Chris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christine-loo-78b2b370/
Li Hsiang (Lisa) Chung (she/her) is the College and Career Counselor/Specialist at La Canada High School in La Canada, CA. She joined La Canada Unified School District in 2022, where she played a key role in establishing the La Canada High School College and Career Center. With over 20 years of experience in high school counseling, Lisa began her career at Granada Hills Charter High School, the largest charter school in the nation, and has dedicated her career to empowering students and enhancing educational outcomes in public high schools. In addition to her counseling experience, Lisa has taught as an adjunct professor at California Lutheran University’s Graduate School of Education and has worked as a Senior Learning Skills Counselor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of California, San Diego. She has presented on topics such as “Unseen & Unheard: Elevating AAPI Adolescents’ Mental Health” at various conferences. Follow Lisa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-chung-lchs-c3/
Resources:
https://www.instagram.com/yellowchaircollective/?hl=en, https://challengesuccess.org/, https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/705868/but-what-will-people-say-by-sahaj-kaur-kohli-maed-lgpc/, https://www.jennywangphd.com/new-page, https://www.dacapopress.com/titles/jimmy-o-yang/how-to-american/9780306903502/
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Access free resources and learn more about Sheila and her team at Signet Education at signeteducation.com or on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheilaakbar/.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Loo (00:00):
When you are working in a school, one of the measures
(00:03):
of a student's well being isactually grades and GPA. That's
one of the things that we lookat when we kind of have our
students of concern meeting likewho is failing and below what we
consider sort of a healthythreshold. And sometimes,
because our Asian Americanstudents are high performing. We
don't actually ask the otherquestion of, are they doing
(00:26):
okay?
Sheila Akbar (00:38):
Hi folks. Happy New Year, and welcome back to
the podcast. I am rested, butunfortunately, right at the end
of my break, I did get COVID, soI'm just getting over it. You're
gonna hear me sniffling a littlebit in this introduction, or
maybe a little hoarseness in myvoice, but I hope you'll bear
with me. Today, I have a reallygreat set of guests to introduce
(01:01):
to you, Chris Liu and LisaCheung. Chris is a Director of
College Counseling at aindependent school in New York,
and Lisa lives in LA here nearme, and is a school counselor.
And I heard these two reallywonderful, just amazingly
(01:21):
intelligent, insightful womenspeak at last fall's NACAC
conference, that's the NationalAssociation of College
admissions counselors, and theygave a presentation that was
called unseen and unheard, andit was all about mental health
in The Asian American community,particularly for high school
(01:41):
students. And I thought it wassuch a brilliant presentation,
really brought to light a lot ofthings that I think a lot of
people don't realize or don'teven stop to think about. And I
invited them to come on thepodcast so we could talk about,
let's see the model minoritymyth, advising Asian American
families and students andhelping us just find some common
(02:06):
ground from which to moveforward. So take a listen. I
hope you'll enjoy thisconversation. Chris and Lisa,
thank you so much for joining metoday. I'm really excited about
this conversation and for ouraudience to get to hear a little
bit more about the perspectivesyou take when working with
particularly AAPI students, butalso just your approach to
(02:28):
working with students ingeneral. So we'll get into the
content that you presented atthis conference that we were all
at last fall in just a moment.
But before we do that, I wouldreally love for each of you to
take just a couple of seconds tointroduce yourself and tell us
how your educational journey ledyou to where you are now. Chris,
let's start with you.
Chris Loo (02:50):
Sure. Thanks so much for having us today. Sheila,
it's really, really awesome tobe here. I'm currently Director
of College Counseling at theStony Brook school. I've been
here for the last 10 years, I'vehad a I've done a bunch of
different things in my career,which I won't go into right now,
but I really love working withstudents. I'm also an immigrant.
(03:12):
I came here when I was justabout six from South Korea with
just my immediate family andjust growing up, there was a
huge emphasis on education, andjust a lot of emphasis on doing
well in school. And so I thinkthat was for my family. I think
the dream was to get into an IvyLeague school, you know, get the
(03:33):
job, the spouse, the children,and then hopefully that they
would also get into high rankingschools. And so feel like, yeah,
have lived a sort of a, youknow, quote, unquote, typical
Asian American immigrantexperience here in the US.
Sheila Akbar (03:49):
And how did you come into counseling work?
Chris Loo (03:53):
Oh, I'm actually a licensed mental health
counselor. And so initially, Iactually worked at a refugee
resettlement organizationhelping refugees assimilate and
acclimate to the US. Somehow Iended up working in a bunch of
different schools, andeventually was actually working
as a school counselor. And thenthe college counselor retired,
(04:16):
and my principal was like, youknow, do you want to try this?
And I was like, Sure, I'm up foranything. And so that's how I
ended up in college counseling.
Sheila Akbar (04:25):
That's wonderful, and clearly you have all the
skills and perspectives neededfor it. Just before we turn on
the recording, you were sayingit's, it's the best year your
school has ever had with earlyadmissions results. So that's
Chris Loo (04:36):
Yeah, I'm really, really proud of our students,
awesome.
and like, a very positive viberight now on our campus.
Sheila Akbar (04:42):
That's so great.
Lisa, how about you tell usabout what you do and how you
came to do it?
Lisa Chung (04:48):
Sure. So I'm currently at La Canada High
School. This is only my thirdyear here. I've been a public
high school counselor for over20 years. So love what I do.
Love motivating students andhelping parents and working
within the school system. Soprior to that, I worked for UC
San Diego. I was in a Departmentof Psychiatry. I've also worked
(05:09):
at Juvenile Hall, so a littlebit of everything. Like Chris, I
was an immigrant. I came fromTaiwan when I was seven years
old. So you know, I guess maybetypical except that we lived in
El Centro, which is thesouthwest corner of California,
right next to Mexico. So a lotof cultural identity, like, who
(05:29):
am I and how do I fit in thisAmerican landscape? So a lot of
survival mode, you know, issuesto deal with. So, you know, I
came into counseling really wantto make a difference, and just
have enjoyed every minute.
Sheila Akbar (05:43):
Well, that's fantastic. So as I mentioned in
my introduction, I heard youboth give a talk on supporting
Asian American students mentalhealth through the college
process at the annual NACACconference. It's the National
Association of CollegeAdmissions Counselors, of which
(06:04):
all three of us are members. Andyou drew quite a large audience,
which I was really happy to see.
And it wasn't just Asians in theaudience, so there were a lot of
us, and I thought that thematerial you presented was
really sharp and impactful, andthings that you know. I know
you've been dealing with in mostof your career, but I think
people haven't really beentalking about it explicitly
(06:27):
until maybe just the last two orthree years. So I'm curious if
you can tell us where the ideafor that panel come from, and
why did you feel like we neededthis information now?
Lisa Chung (06:41):
Well, as a public high school counselor, a lot of
times we're dealing with crisis,or we're dealing with D's and
fails or things that you knowwalk through our door. So the
conversation that Chris and Istarted having was unseen and
heard really thinking aboutAsian Americans. Sometimes they
don't walk through our officewith crisis. And many times when
(07:03):
we do see them in crisis, it'slike we're hitting rock bottom.
So we really want to see ifthere's things that we could do
before we get to that point. Andso that was the genesis of,
okay, I think it's time todiscuss Asian American mental
health. And when we look atstats, it's surprisingly that
Asian Americans have one of thelowest mental health seeking
(07:24):
rates. So we're like, wow, thisis not good. We need to do
something about it now.
Chris Loo (07:30):
I think. And just to add to that, Sheila, you know,
even though Lisa works at apublic school and I work at a
private school, I was seeing thesame thing among my AAPI
students, right? Except that theD was not the fail, it was the
B, you know, and it's and sothey were just carrying a lot.
They were under a lot of stressand pressure from families and
(07:53):
expectations. And then if Lisaand I talked, I also shared my
own personal experience ofhaving grown up with mental
health issues and not alwaysfeeling like there was a safe
space for me to actually talkabout it myself.
Sheila Akbar (08:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you brought up, both ofyou brought up two really, I
think important factors here.
One is the unseen and unheard.
We don't really always recognizewhen a student from another
culture, let's just say, isstruggling, especially, I think,
in our Asian cultures, whereacademic excellence is just
expected, and so the standards,like you're saying Chris for
(08:31):
failure is a little bitdifferent, right? It's not the
D. It may be even an A minusbrings up, you know, the kind of
emotions and sense of failurethat someone else getting a D or
an actual fail would so I knowat the heart of that both of
those things is the modelminority myth. Can you give us a
quick definition of what that isand how it impacts Asian
(08:51):
students?
Lisa Chung (08:55):
So the model minority myth really stems from
that, you know, Asian Americansare fine, that you know they
are, you know, the go getters.
They're getting straight A's,they're they're quiet in the
class, and they're hard working.
So anything that doesn't fitthat is like censored, and
(09:16):
people don't believe it. And sowe're also then pitted up
against other groups andminorities, and so that it
becomes almost like a strugglingOlympics, like who has a greater
struggle, and Asian Americansyou don't so you be quiet. So
model minority myth has a lot ofnuances to it. That is not the
best.
Sheila Akbar (09:37):
Chris, what would you add?
Chris Loo (09:38):
Yeah, I would say there is, it's the myth that the
perception that we're alwaysokay, we are high achieving, we
are successful. I think theother thing I would say is that
Asian Americans are oftenportrayed as people that don't
speak up or push back, and so,yeah, we're we just kind of
(09:59):
like, do what we're told. Old,and we get along with people,
and we kind of fulfill all theexpectations placed upon us. And
so yeah, I think that those aresome of the other components of
the model minority myth.
Sheila Akbar (10:11):
Yeah, and it is difficult to encapsulate,
because it has so many differentinteractions with other things,
right? So, Lisa, you mentioned,we're being pitted against other
minorities, right? If the Asianscan immigrate here and be,
quote, unquote, fine, why can'tother ethnic groups, right? So
we are used as a cudgel againstother minority groups. And then
(10:36):
there's the the sufferingOlympics that you mentioned as
well, like everybody's gettingA's, and as an aggregate, Asian
immigrants are the wealthiestimmigrant group in the United
States. So Asians are fine,right? But of course, as we
start to dig underneath this, wecan see why this is such a
hurtful stereotype and harmfulstereotype, because Asians
(10:58):
aren't a monolith. There arelots of different types of Asian
immigrants from immigrants likemy parents. I don't know if this
fits your families, but myparents came over as part of an
immigration plan that was reallytrying to draw in highly
educated, technically trainedpeople to move to, you know,
it's why I grew up in a ruralarea in Michigan. My father was
(11:20):
a doctor, and, you know, he was,he was sort of recruited in and
so, because my father came overas part of that kind of group,
of course, education was a bigpart of their culture, because
it was part of their culture,you know, in their in their home
culture. But there are lots ofimmigrants who come over as
refugees of wars and conflicts,people who are seeking asylum,
(11:43):
people who you know, maybe afamily member, brought them
over, and they themselves don'thave a lot of education, and so
they are really starting from adifferent place when they get to
the United States, right? Soit's very unfair to paint
everybody with a single brush.
How do you see that play out inthe work that you all do.
Chris Loo (12:02):
I just wanted to say this Sheila, and I think that it
is really important for us notto assume that all the students
we work with don't needfinancial aid, right, because
they're from well off families,or they're all sort of, you
know, headed toward the samegoal that they're all a plus
students, one of the things Idid want to bring up when you
(12:24):
are working in a school, one ofthe measures of a student's well
being is actually grades andGPA. That's one of the things
that we look at when we kind ofhave our students of concern,
meeting like who is failing andbelow what we consider sort of a
healthy threshold, andsometimes, because our Asian
American students are highperforming, we don't actually
(12:47):
ask the other question of, arethey doing okay? So I think for
schools, they have to kind offigure out other measures, right
of student well being, besidesthe bad GPA, because sometimes
Asian students will not fallinto that category, and they're
not okay, which goes back to ourthe title of our presentation of
(13:11):
unseen and unheard,
Lisa Chung (13:12):
Absolutely, and then the idea that, you know, because
if you don't live up to thatmodel minority standard, then
you're a bad Asian and so you'relike, it's a double whammy. You
feel even worse about yourself.
And Sheila, you alluded to thepoverty rates, about the just
discrepancy of different AsianAmerican groups. And so it is
(13:33):
vastly different. So while one,you know, minority Asian
American group could be doingreally well overall. There are
definitely groups that you knowhave lower incomes and so forth.
So taking the time to get toknow each individual student,
like Chris said, is prettyimportant.
Sheila Akbar (13:53):
That's, yeah, great to add. And I think,
sorry, there was a question forme, and now it's gone a little
bit, but it'll come back. WhatI'm thinking about now is why
those students might not beokay, even if their grades are
fine or great, right? They maybe the highest achieving student
in terms of grades. I think Imean Asian, American students
(14:16):
are just like any other student,right? Teenagers go through
things. There's a lot of newsocial dynamics and things like
that happening in adolescencethat they're, of course,
struggling with. They live inthe same world as everybody
else. We're all struggling underwhatever is happening in our
particular corners of the worldor communities that we care
about. But Asian students alsohave to contend, especially if
(14:38):
they come from an immigrantorigin family. They may also be
contending with the sort ofafter effects and the
generational trauma that comeswith immigrating. Can you speak
about that a little bit?
Chris Loo (14:51):
Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. We see
generational trauma on twoscales. One is the macro scale,
and. It's exactly what you justmentioned, Sheila, you know,
they can come from systemic andhistorical oppression. They may
come from a country that has hadyears of, you know, decades of
(15:12):
colonization. They may bevictims of war and poverty, and
so for students who have comefrom this kind of macro trauma,
we really need to beunderstanding of the context
right and the families fromwhich they came. But I would say
the other kind of generationaltrauma is on a micro scale, and
(15:35):
this is kind of how cultural andparental expectations and
beliefs are experienced in theirday to day life. And so you
know, whether it's a student whojust comes from a family where
you know I'd love you, I'm proudof you, are not phrases that you
know they are hearing ever. Andso it really gets tied into sort
(15:57):
of this idea of, I am lovable,right? I am worthy because of
what I achieve, not because ofwho I am. And so we could
probably talk about this for acouple hours Sheila, which we
don't have time for. But there'sa great difference between
guilt, right, I feel badlybecause of something I've done
and shame, which is, I feelbadly of myself because of who I
(16:20):
am. And so I think for ourstudents who have come from
backgrounds where they're shamebased cultures, a lot of this
sort of micro generationaltrauma is really part of their
story, but they find it reallyhard to talk about
Sheila Akbar (16:35):
Right, so like you said, we could talk about this
for hours for sure, but we'regonna try to keep it to the size
of a podcast episode here. Butone of the things I'm also
thinking about is why they'renot talking about it, why
they're not coming into youroffice. There are cultural
stigmas against sharing thesekinds of struggles, admitting
(16:58):
that maybe within the family,something is happening that is
negative, right? I know when Iwas raised, my parents were
like, you keep family secrets inthe family, right? Because there
was a lot of to your point shameabout what will other people
think? What will other peoplesay? We have to be better than
everybody else in order to betreated normal. And of course,
(17:19):
even if we were we weren'ttreated normal, quote, unquote,
because there was this idea,again, Chris, like you were
saying we had to earn respect.
We had to earn a sense of humandignity, not that we were just
automatically afforded itbecause we were human. So let's
talk a little bit about thesesort of cultural stigmas and how
that can Well, we've alreadytalked about, this is a double
(17:40):
whammy. Maybe it's a triplewhammy now that if they come
forth asking for some help, oradmitting, hey, this is not I'm
not feeling good, then there maybe even more pressure and shame
keep upon them.
Lisa Chung (17:53):
Yeah, we see, you know, two folds. One is
academically, like we kind ofstarted talking about, there's a
great meme out there that, youknow, we're Asians, not Bsians.
So like Chris said, B is like,not okay, and this is the
standard. And so academically,we see students walking in, you
know, a little bit stressed, andthat's when we say, Hey, are you
(18:14):
okay? The other side of thespectrum is we have students
with serious mental healthissues, and they're walking in
saying, I need help, and now wehave to convince the parents, we
have to convince and get thewraparound support that the
student needs. So I feel likethere's two fold in the spectrum
of different services and kindof where awareness of you know
(18:37):
what their needs are for ourstudents.
Chris Loo (18:40):
Yeah, I think the other thing is, you can
actually, it's just, I would sayoverall, there's still a stigma
attached to mental healthstruggles in it. I would say
it's, it's pretty acute in theAAPI community, but just in
general, right? It's just, like,not the thing that people talk
about in general. But I do thinkthat in the AAPI community, it
(19:03):
is very acute. It's, there,there's all sorts of stigma and
shame attached to it. And so Ican just share with you my own
experience growing up with, youknow, mental health issues. I
don't know that my parents, theykind of had a frame of
reference. I don't know thatthey had sort of the tools to
really talk to me about it, butI can tell you that they 100%
(19:26):
loved and supported me becausethey paid for my counseling,
right? But they would never talkto me about it. And I feel like
that is a to me, sort of a the,you know, my parents way of
saying, this is uncomfortablefor us, but we love you, you
know, so I do hope to somedaysee our students and our
(19:52):
families say, hey, like this ispart of your story, and this is
good for us, to be able to talkabout this part of your journey.
Sheila Akbar (20:02):
Well, since we're talking a little bit about
parents, how do you approachparents who may or may not be
aware that their child isstruggling with something?
Lisa Chung (20:12):
I think, you know, Chris and I talk about this
quite a bit, and we wish we hadthat magic wand, but getting to
the same side as the parents istremendously important saying,
Hey, we all want what's best forJohnny, right? And from there,
that's where you can plant theseed of, okay, so, you know, we
may all struggle sometimes, andhere in America, it's okay, you
(20:33):
can get support without, youknow, having a diagnosis or a
disorder. Let's just talk aboutit, let's normalize it first a
little bit and just get you totalk to somebody else. And I
think that's how I kind of starthelping my students on their
mental health journeys, gettingthat little bit of buy in from
parents that this is normal,this is okay. Everybody needs
(20:54):
support sometimes.
Chris Loo (20:56):
Yeah, I would totally echo that. I think the first
thing I try to do is to get allof us on the same page that we
want what is best for thestudent. Once we can get
agreement right with that as theobjective, I think very often,
we are able to kind of start theconversation about what is going
(21:17):
on with the student and what arethe next steps that are going to
be in the best interest of thestudent, and very often, I will
defer to our school counselor,you know, to really have those
conversations. I also want tosay, I think just on a practical
level, it's, it's really, reallygreat when you can get a an
interpreter involved, if thefamily does not speak English as
(21:39):
their first language. I think itjust brings a measure of comfort
to them to be able to hear aboutthis right in a language that
feels very, very comfortable forthe family.
Sheila Akbar (21:51):
Yeah, that's a really good point. I feel like
when, when we have had to dealwith similar situations, I think
being a bridge is reallyimportant. And so yeah, having a
translator, having a even just afamily friend who may be more
sympathetic to the idea ofgetting a mental health support,
someone who can help a familynormalize that idea, is so
(22:16):
vitally important. And I think,as both of you have immediately
done. We don't start from apremise of the parent is the bad
guy. They may have a lot to dowith why the student is feeling
the way they're they're feeling,but I think we need to recruit
them onto the students I'm theyare on the student side, but we
need to really assure them likewe're not blaming you. And you
(22:39):
know, we're all here to helpthis go better for everybody. I
think those are so important. Iwas talking to a parent earlier
today, actually, who was like, Ididn't need any of this help
when I was going through thesethings, I just believed in
myself. Why can't my studentbelieve in their self? And I
think one of the most importantthings to be able to do for a
(23:00):
parent is to hold space forthose thoughts, not in front of
their kid, but let them saythose things and help them
realize the world is so vastlydifferent than it was 20 30,
years ago, when they were goingthrough this process, or when
they were a teenager, and justhelp them come to terms with
(23:20):
that right, that that theirchild is going through something
different than they did, thattheir child is not them, and
that we've made progress, right?
They, as a parent, may have hadto struggle through this thing
on their own. They of course,want something better for their
child. They don't want them tostruggle through it on their
own. And so we can kind of makethis sort of argument that that
Here is your chance to makethings better for your child
(23:43):
than you had it, which, ofcourse, we know you want. That's
right? Yeah. Well, I know wehave a list of topics we could
go on and on about, but I thinkI'll end with what are some of
your favorite resources, eitherfor students or parents to start
kind of exploring these ideasand beginning to have
conversations about that.
Lisa Chung (24:03):
One resource that la canada high school uses is
challenge success. They're anonprofit out of the Stanford
Graduate School of Education, sothey have a bunch of free
resources online, and it goesfrom just a healthier approach
to college admission to, youknow, what can you do with your
students to help them with that?
And, you know, young students.
(24:26):
So one of my favorite things isthey have this thing called PDF.
You know, PDF is important, andthat's Play time and Downtime
and Free time. So amazing,right? There's research that
shows that PDF is important, soI use that as a platform to help
my students. Hey guys, you know,make sure you have that. And
same thing for parents, right? Iremember growing up, my dad said
(24:47):
your free time is supposed to bespent reading dictionaries, Lisa
and so, no, no, no. Okay, now wehave Stanford to help us out and
say No, Dad, you know what?
Sometimes I need some play timethat's not reading a dictionary.
So I love challenge success anda lot of the free resources they
have available.
Chris Loo (25:04):
I just want to give a plug for two books. One is
called Permission to Come Home,and it's about mental health and
Asian Americans, and that is byJenny Wang. I think that that's
excellent. The other book, whichI've read more recently, is
called but What Will People Say?
And I'm sorry if I mispronounceher name, it's by Sahaj Kaur
Kohli, but the the subtitle isNavigating Mental Health,
(25:29):
Identity, Love and FamilyBetween Cultures. I think that's
a really good resource as well.
Sheila Akbar (25:38):
Absolutely, I haven't read Permission to Come
Home, but I did recently readBut What Will People Say? And I
literally have five copies of iton the other side of my desk,
because I'm giving it to all myfriends. It's so fantastic. The
other one that I would I wouldalso highlight a group in
California, but they haveobviously a an international
social media presence that Ithink is really great. It's
(26:00):
called the Yellow ChairCollective, and they focus on
mental health for AsianAmericans. And they are a group
of therapists who, you know,specialize in that, that sort of
demographic. But of course,they're all sharing really great
resources and things like thatonline.
Lisa Chung (26:14):
I have one more, yes, Oh, this one's a fun one.
And I think sometimes we need tojust hear other Asian voices and
so that we're not so alone. Howto American and Immigrants Guide
to Disciplining your Parents? ByJimmy O Yang, it was fantastic.
It's funny, and again, to sharethat Asian American experience
(26:36):
and to relate to that. So that'sa fun one.
Sheila Akbar (26:39):
Yeah, I just, I love that. I mean, these things
didn't exist 1510, years agoeven. So I just love that there.
There's so many stories that areout there. They're voices that
we can listen to to help usrealize that this is really all
normal and we all need eachother. Well, I think that's a
great place to leave it. Chrisand Lisa, thank you so much for
(27:00):
not only coming on the podcast,but for the work that you're
doing and the perspectives thatyou're raising. I think it's so
so important.
Lisa Chung (27:07):
Thank you.
Chris Loo (27:07):
Thanks so much for having us here, Sheila, this has
been a great yeah, it's beengreat talking to you about these
important issues.
Sheila Akbar (27:14):
Awesome. All right, thank you. Well, I really
could have gone on talking tothem for a very long time and
excited to collaborate furtherwith both of them in the future.
If you look at our show notes,you will find links for all of
the resources that we mentioned,the books, the websites you
know, the organizations, and Ihope you will check those out.
(27:35):
And just a sort of programmingnote, we are going to be
switching to an every other weekrelease of the podcast, so be
aware of that, and I am stilllooking for questions and
situations to coach familiesthrough and students through.
But if you just even have aquestion about college
(27:55):
admissions or testing that you'dlike to have answered on the
show, you can submit thatanonymously. Please see the show
notes, and you will find a linkto do that. All right,
everybody, we'll see you nexttime. Thanks.
When you are working in a school, one of the measures
(00:03):
of a student's well being isactually grades and GPA. That's
one of the things that we lookat when we kind of have our
students of concern meeting likewho is failing and below what we
consider sort of a healthythreshold. And sometimes,
because our Asian Americanstudents are high performing. We
don't actually ask the otherquestion of, are they doing
(00:26):
okay?
Sheila Akbar (00:38):
Hi folks. Happy New Year, and welcome back to
the podcast. I am rested, butunfortunately, right at the end
of my break, I did get COVID, soI'm just getting over it. You're
gonna hear me sniffling a littlebit in this introduction, or
maybe a little hoarseness in myvoice, but I hope you'll bear
with me. Today, I have a reallygreat set of guests to introduce
(01:01):
to you, Chris Liu and LisaCheung. Chris is a Director of
College Counseling at aindependent school in New York,
and Lisa lives in LA here nearme, and is a school counselor.
And I heard these two reallywonderful, just amazingly
(01:21):
intelligent, insightful womenspeak at last fall's NACAC
conference, that's the NationalAssociation of College
admissions counselors, and theygave a presentation that was
called unseen and unheard, andit was all about mental health
in The Asian American community,particularly for high school
(01:41):
students. And I thought it wassuch a brilliant presentation,
really brought to light a lot ofthings that I think a lot of
people don't realize or don'teven stop to think about. And I
invited them to come on thepodcast so we could talk about,
let's see the model minoritymyth, advising Asian American
families and students andhelping us just find some common
(02:06):
ground from which to moveforward. So take a listen. I
hope you'll enjoy thisconversation. Chris and Lisa,
thank you so much for joining metoday. I'm really excited about
this conversation and for ouraudience to get to hear a little
bit more about the perspectivesyou take when working with
particularly AAPI students, butalso just your approach to
(02:28):
working with students ingeneral. So we'll get into the
content that you presented atthis conference that we were all
at last fall in just a moment.
But before we do that, I wouldreally love for each of you to
take just a couple of seconds tointroduce yourself and tell us
how your educational journey ledyou to where you are now. Chris,
let's start with you.
Chris Loo (02:50):
Sure. Thanks so much for having us today. Sheila,
it's really, really awesome tobe here. I'm currently Director
of College Counseling at theStony Brook school. I've been
here for the last 10 years, I'vehad a I've done a bunch of
different things in my career,which I won't go into right now,
but I really love working withstudents. I'm also an immigrant.
(03:12):
I came here when I was justabout six from South Korea with
just my immediate family andjust growing up, there was a
huge emphasis on education, andjust a lot of emphasis on doing
well in school. And so I thinkthat was for my family. I think
the dream was to get into an IvyLeague school, you know, get the
(03:33):
job, the spouse, the children,and then hopefully that they
would also get into high rankingschools. And so feel like, yeah,
have lived a sort of a, youknow, quote, unquote, typical
Asian American immigrantexperience here in the US.
Sheila Akbar (03:49):
And how did you come into counseling work?
Chris Loo (03:53):
Oh, I'm actually a licensed mental health
counselor. And so initially, Iactually worked at a refugee
resettlement organizationhelping refugees assimilate and
acclimate to the US. Somehow Iended up working in a bunch of
different schools, andeventually was actually working
as a school counselor. And thenthe college counselor retired,
(04:16):
and my principal was like, youknow, do you want to try this?
And I was like, Sure, I'm up foranything. And so that's how I
ended up in college counseling.
Sheila Akbar (04:25):
That's wonderful, and clearly you have all the
skills and perspectives neededfor it. Just before we turn on
the recording, you were sayingit's, it's the best year your
school has ever had with earlyadmissions results. So that's
Chris Loo (04:36):
Yeah, I'm really, really proud of our students,
awesome.
and like, a very positive viberight now on our campus.
Sheila Akbar (04:42):
That's so great.
Lisa, how about you tell usabout what you do and how you
came to do it?
Lisa Chung (04:48):
Sure. So I'm currently at La Canada High
School. This is only my thirdyear here. I've been a public
high school counselor for over20 years. So love what I do.
Love motivating students andhelping parents and working
within the school system. Soprior to that, I worked for UC
San Diego. I was in a Departmentof Psychiatry. I've also worked
(05:09):
at Juvenile Hall, so a littlebit of everything. Like Chris, I
was an immigrant. I came fromTaiwan when I was seven years
old. So you know, I guess maybetypical except that we lived in
El Centro, which is thesouthwest corner of California,
right next to Mexico. So a lotof cultural identity, like, who
(05:29):
am I and how do I fit in thisAmerican landscape? So a lot of
survival mode, you know, issuesto deal with. So, you know, I
came into counseling really wantto make a difference, and just
have enjoyed every minute.
Sheila Akbar (05:43):
Well, that's fantastic. So as I mentioned in
my introduction, I heard youboth give a talk on supporting
Asian American students mentalhealth through the college
process at the annual NACACconference. It's the National
Association of CollegeAdmissions Counselors, of which
(06:04):
all three of us are members. Andyou drew quite a large audience,
which I was really happy to see.
And it wasn't just Asians in theaudience, so there were a lot of
us, and I thought that thematerial you presented was
really sharp and impactful, andthings that you know. I know
you've been dealing with in mostof your career, but I think
people haven't really beentalking about it explicitly
(06:27):
until maybe just the last two orthree years. So I'm curious if
you can tell us where the ideafor that panel come from, and
why did you feel like we neededthis information now?
Lisa Chung (06:41):
Well, as a public high school counselor, a lot of
times we're dealing with crisis,or we're dealing with D's and
fails or things that you knowwalk through our door. So the
conversation that Chris and Istarted having was unseen and
heard really thinking aboutAsian Americans. Sometimes they
don't walk through our officewith crisis. And many times when
(07:03):
we do see them in crisis, it'slike we're hitting rock bottom.
So we really want to see ifthere's things that we could do
before we get to that point. Andso that was the genesis of,
okay, I think it's time todiscuss Asian American mental
health. And when we look atstats, it's surprisingly that
Asian Americans have one of thelowest mental health seeking
(07:24):
rates. So we're like, wow, thisis not good. We need to do
something about it now.
Chris Loo (07:30):
I think. And just to add to that, Sheila, you know,
even though Lisa works at apublic school and I work at a
private school, I was seeing thesame thing among my AAPI
students, right? Except that theD was not the fail, it was the
B, you know, and it's and sothey were just carrying a lot.
They were under a lot of stressand pressure from families and
(07:53):
expectations. And then if Lisaand I talked, I also shared my
own personal experience ofhaving grown up with mental
health issues and not alwaysfeeling like there was a safe
space for me to actually talkabout it myself.
Sheila Akbar (08:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you brought up, both ofyou brought up two really, I
think important factors here.
One is the unseen and unheard.
We don't really always recognizewhen a student from another
culture, let's just say, isstruggling, especially, I think,
in our Asian cultures, whereacademic excellence is just
expected, and so the standards,like you're saying Chris for
(08:31):
failure is a little bitdifferent, right? It's not the
D. It may be even an A minusbrings up, you know, the kind of
emotions and sense of failurethat someone else getting a D or
an actual fail would so I knowat the heart of that both of
those things is the modelminority myth. Can you give us a
quick definition of what that isand how it impacts Asian
(08:51):
students?
Lisa Chung (08:55):
So the model minority myth really stems from
that, you know, Asian Americansare fine, that you know they
are, you know, the go getters.
They're getting straight A's,they're they're quiet in the
class, and they're hard working.
So anything that doesn't fitthat is like censored, and
(09:16):
people don't believe it. And sowe're also then pitted up
against other groups andminorities, and so that it
becomes almost like a strugglingOlympics, like who has a greater
struggle, and Asian Americansyou don't so you be quiet. So
model minority myth has a lot ofnuances to it. That is not the
best.
Sheila Akbar (09:37):
Chris, what would you add?
Chris Loo (09:38):
Yeah, I would say there is, it's the myth that the
perception that we're alwaysokay, we are high achieving, we
are successful. I think theother thing I would say is that
Asian Americans are oftenportrayed as people that don't
speak up or push back, and so,yeah, we're we just kind of
(09:59):
like, do what we're told. Old,and we get along with people,
and we kind of fulfill all theexpectations placed upon us. And
so yeah, I think that those aresome of the other components of
the model minority myth.
Sheila Akbar (10:11):
Yeah, and it is difficult to encapsulate,
because it has so many differentinteractions with other things,
right? So, Lisa, you mentioned,we're being pitted against other
minorities, right? If the Asianscan immigrate here and be,
quote, unquote, fine, why can'tother ethnic groups, right? So
we are used as a cudgel againstother minority groups. And then
(10:36):
there's the the sufferingOlympics that you mentioned as
well, like everybody's gettingA's, and as an aggregate, Asian
immigrants are the wealthiestimmigrant group in the United
States. So Asians are fine,right? But of course, as we
start to dig underneath this, wecan see why this is such a
hurtful stereotype and harmfulstereotype, because Asians
(10:58):
aren't a monolith. There arelots of different types of Asian
immigrants from immigrants likemy parents. I don't know if this
fits your families, but myparents came over as part of an
immigration plan that was reallytrying to draw in highly
educated, technically trainedpeople to move to, you know,
it's why I grew up in a ruralarea in Michigan. My father was
(11:20):
a doctor, and, you know, he was,he was sort of recruited in and
so, because my father came overas part of that kind of group,
of course, education was a bigpart of their culture, because
it was part of their culture,you know, in their in their home
culture. But there are lots ofimmigrants who come over as
refugees of wars and conflicts,people who are seeking asylum,
(11:43):
people who you know, maybe afamily member, brought them
over, and they themselves don'thave a lot of education, and so
they are really starting from adifferent place when they get to
the United States, right? Soit's very unfair to paint
everybody with a single brush.
How do you see that play out inthe work that you all do.
Chris Loo (12:02):
I just wanted to say this Sheila, and I think that it
is really important for us notto assume that all the students
we work with don't needfinancial aid, right, because
they're from well off families,or they're all sort of, you
know, headed toward the samegoal that they're all a plus
students, one of the things Idid want to bring up when you
(12:24):
are working in a school, one ofthe measures of a student's well
being is actually grades andGPA. That's one of the things
that we look at when we kind ofhave our students of concern,
meeting like who is failing andbelow what we consider sort of a
healthy threshold, andsometimes, because our Asian
American students are highperforming, we don't actually
(12:47):
ask the other question of, arethey doing okay? So I think for
schools, they have to kind offigure out other measures, right
of student well being, besidesthe bad GPA, because sometimes
Asian students will not fallinto that category, and they're
not okay, which goes back to ourthe title of our presentation of
(13:11):
unseen and unheard,
Lisa Chung (13:12):
Absolutely, and then the idea that, you know, because
if you don't live up to thatmodel minority standard, then
you're a bad Asian and so you'relike, it's a double whammy. You
feel even worse about yourself.
And Sheila, you alluded to thepoverty rates, about the just
discrepancy of different AsianAmerican groups. And so it is
(13:33):
vastly different. So while one,you know, minority Asian
American group could be doingreally well overall. There are
definitely groups that you knowhave lower incomes and so forth.
So taking the time to get toknow each individual student,
like Chris said, is prettyimportant.
Sheila Akbar (13:53):
That's, yeah, great to add. And I think,
sorry, there was a question forme, and now it's gone a little
bit, but it'll come back. WhatI'm thinking about now is why
those students might not beokay, even if their grades are
fine or great, right? They maybe the highest achieving student
in terms of grades. I think Imean Asian, American students
(14:16):
are just like any other student,right? Teenagers go through
things. There's a lot of newsocial dynamics and things like
that happening in adolescencethat they're, of course,
struggling with. They live inthe same world as everybody
else. We're all struggling underwhatever is happening in our
particular corners of the worldor communities that we care
about. But Asian students alsohave to contend, especially if
(14:38):
they come from an immigrantorigin family. They may also be
contending with the sort ofafter effects and the
generational trauma that comeswith immigrating. Can you speak
about that a little bit?
Chris Loo (14:51):
Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. We see
generational trauma on twoscales. One is the macro scale,
and. It's exactly what you justmentioned, Sheila, you know,
they can come from systemic andhistorical oppression. They may
come from a country that has hadyears of, you know, decades of
(15:12):
colonization. They may bevictims of war and poverty, and
so for students who have comefrom this kind of macro trauma,
we really need to beunderstanding of the context
right and the families fromwhich they came. But I would say
the other kind of generationaltrauma is on a micro scale, and
(15:35):
this is kind of how cultural andparental expectations and
beliefs are experienced in theirday to day life. And so you
know, whether it's a student whojust comes from a family where
you know I'd love you, I'm proudof you, are not phrases that you
know they are hearing ever. Andso it really gets tied into sort
(15:57):
of this idea of, I am lovable,right? I am worthy because of
what I achieve, not because ofwho I am. And so we could
probably talk about this for acouple hours Sheila, which we
don't have time for. But there'sa great difference between
guilt, right, I feel badlybecause of something I've done
and shame, which is, I feelbadly of myself because of who I
(16:20):
am. And so I think for ourstudents who have come from
backgrounds where they're shamebased cultures, a lot of this
sort of micro generationaltrauma is really part of their
story, but they find it reallyhard to talk about
Sheila Akbar (16:35):
Right, so like you said, we could talk about this
for hours for sure, but we'regonna try to keep it to the size
of a podcast episode here. Butone of the things I'm also
thinking about is why they'renot talking about it, why
they're not coming into youroffice. There are cultural
stigmas against sharing thesekinds of struggles, admitting
(16:58):
that maybe within the family,something is happening that is
negative, right? I know when Iwas raised, my parents were
like, you keep family secrets inthe family, right? Because there
was a lot of to your point shameabout what will other people
think? What will other peoplesay? We have to be better than
everybody else in order to betreated normal. And of course,
(17:19):
even if we were we weren'ttreated normal, quote, unquote,
because there was this idea,again, Chris, like you were
saying we had to earn respect.
We had to earn a sense of humandignity, not that we were just
automatically afforded itbecause we were human. So let's
talk a little bit about thesesort of cultural stigmas and how
that can Well, we've alreadytalked about, this is a double
(17:40):
whammy. Maybe it's a triplewhammy now that if they come
forth asking for some help, oradmitting, hey, this is not I'm
not feeling good, then there maybe even more pressure and shame
keep upon them.
Lisa Chung (17:53):
Yeah, we see, you know, two folds. One is
academically, like we kind ofstarted talking about, there's a
great meme out there that, youknow, we're Asians, not Bsians.
So like Chris said, B is like,not okay, and this is the
standard. And so academically,we see students walking in, you
know, a little bit stressed, andthat's when we say, Hey, are you
(18:14):
okay? The other side of thespectrum is we have students
with serious mental healthissues, and they're walking in
saying, I need help, and now wehave to convince the parents, we
have to convince and get thewraparound support that the
student needs. So I feel likethere's two fold in the spectrum
of different services and kindof where awareness of you know
(18:37):
what their needs are for ourstudents.
Chris Loo (18:40):
Yeah, I think the other thing is, you can
actually, it's just, I would sayoverall, there's still a stigma
attached to mental healthstruggles in it. I would say
it's, it's pretty acute in theAAPI community, but just in
general, right? It's just, like,not the thing that people talk
about in general. But I do thinkthat in the AAPI community, it
(19:03):
is very acute. It's, there,there's all sorts of stigma and
shame attached to it. And so Ican just share with you my own
experience growing up with, youknow, mental health issues. I
don't know that my parents, theykind of had a frame of
reference. I don't know thatthey had sort of the tools to
really talk to me about it, butI can tell you that they 100%
(19:26):
loved and supported me becausethey paid for my counseling,
right? But they would never talkto me about it. And I feel like
that is a to me, sort of a the,you know, my parents way of
saying, this is uncomfortablefor us, but we love you, you
know, so I do hope to somedaysee our students and our
(19:52):
families say, hey, like this ispart of your story, and this is
good for us, to be able to talkabout this part of your journey.
Sheila Akbar (20:02):
Well, since we're talking a little bit about
parents, how do you approachparents who may or may not be
aware that their child isstruggling with something?
Lisa Chung (20:12):
I think, you know, Chris and I talk about this
quite a bit, and we wish we hadthat magic wand, but getting to
the same side as the parents istremendously important saying,
Hey, we all want what's best forJohnny, right? And from there,
that's where you can plant theseed of, okay, so, you know, we
may all struggle sometimes, andhere in America, it's okay, you
(20:33):
can get support without, youknow, having a diagnosis or a
disorder. Let's just talk aboutit, let's normalize it first a
little bit and just get you totalk to somebody else. And I
think that's how I kind of starthelping my students on their
mental health journeys, gettingthat little bit of buy in from
parents that this is normal,this is okay. Everybody needs
(20:54):
support sometimes.
Chris Loo (20:56):
Yeah, I would totally echo that. I think the first
thing I try to do is to get allof us on the same page that we
want what is best for thestudent. Once we can get
agreement right with that as theobjective, I think very often,
we are able to kind of start theconversation about what is going
(21:17):
on with the student and what arethe next steps that are going to
be in the best interest of thestudent, and very often, I will
defer to our school counselor,you know, to really have those
conversations. I also want tosay, I think just on a practical
level, it's, it's really, reallygreat when you can get a an
interpreter involved, if thefamily does not speak English as
(21:39):
their first language. I think itjust brings a measure of comfort
to them to be able to hear aboutthis right in a language that
feels very, very comfortable forthe family.
Sheila Akbar (21:51):
Yeah, that's a really good point. I feel like
when, when we have had to dealwith similar situations, I think
being a bridge is reallyimportant. And so yeah, having a
translator, having a even just afamily friend who may be more
sympathetic to the idea ofgetting a mental health support,
someone who can help a familynormalize that idea, is so
(22:16):
vitally important. And I think,as both of you have immediately
done. We don't start from apremise of the parent is the bad
guy. They may have a lot to dowith why the student is feeling
the way they're they're feeling,but I think we need to recruit
them onto the students I'm theyare on the student side, but we
need to really assure them likewe're not blaming you. And you
(22:39):
know, we're all here to helpthis go better for everybody. I
think those are so important. Iwas talking to a parent earlier
today, actually, who was like, Ididn't need any of this help
when I was going through thesethings, I just believed in
myself. Why can't my studentbelieve in their self? And I
think one of the most importantthings to be able to do for a
(23:00):
parent is to hold space forthose thoughts, not in front of
their kid, but let them saythose things and help them
realize the world is so vastlydifferent than it was 20 30,
years ago, when they were goingthrough this process, or when
they were a teenager, and justhelp them come to terms with
(23:20):
that right, that that theirchild is going through something
different than they did, thattheir child is not them, and
that we've made progress, right?
They, as a parent, may have hadto struggle through this thing
on their own. They of course,want something better for their
child. They don't want them tostruggle through it on their
own. And so we can kind of makethis sort of argument that that
Here is your chance to makethings better for your child
(23:43):
than you had it, which, ofcourse, we know you want. That's
right? Yeah. Well, I know wehave a list of topics we could
go on and on about, but I thinkI'll end with what are some of
your favorite resources, eitherfor students or parents to start
kind of exploring these ideasand beginning to have
conversations about that.
Lisa Chung (24:03):
One resource that la canada high school uses is
challenge success. They're anonprofit out of the Stanford
Graduate School of Education, sothey have a bunch of free
resources online, and it goesfrom just a healthier approach
to college admission to, youknow, what can you do with your
students to help them with that?
And, you know, young students.
(24:26):
So one of my favorite things isthey have this thing called PDF.
You know, PDF is important, andthat's Play time and Downtime
and Free time. So amazing,right? There's research that
shows that PDF is important, soI use that as a platform to help
my students. Hey guys, you know,make sure you have that. And
same thing for parents, right? Iremember growing up, my dad said
(24:47):
your free time is supposed to bespent reading dictionaries, Lisa
and so, no, no, no. Okay, now wehave Stanford to help us out and
say No, Dad, you know what?
Sometimes I need some play timethat's not reading a dictionary.
So I love challenge success anda lot of the free resources they
have available.
Chris Loo (25:04):
I just want to give a plug for two books. One is
called Permission to Come Home,and it's about mental health and
Asian Americans, and that is byJenny Wang. I think that that's
excellent. The other book, whichI've read more recently, is
called but What Will People Say?
And I'm sorry if I mispronounceher name, it's by Sahaj Kaur
Kohli, but the the subtitle isNavigating Mental Health,
(25:29):
Identity, Love and FamilyBetween Cultures. I think that's
a really good resource as well.
Sheila Akbar (25:38):
Absolutely, I haven't read Permission to Come
Home, but I did recently readBut What Will People Say? And I
literally have five copies of iton the other side of my desk,
because I'm giving it to all myfriends. It's so fantastic. The
other one that I would I wouldalso highlight a group in
California, but they haveobviously a an international
social media presence that Ithink is really great. It's
(26:00):
called the Yellow ChairCollective, and they focus on
mental health for AsianAmericans. And they are a group
of therapists who, you know,specialize in that, that sort of
demographic. But of course,they're all sharing really great
resources and things like thatonline.
Lisa Chung (26:14):
I have one more, yes, Oh, this one's a fun one.
And I think sometimes we need tojust hear other Asian voices and
so that we're not so alone. Howto American and Immigrants Guide
to Disciplining your Parents? ByJimmy O Yang, it was fantastic.
It's funny, and again, to sharethat Asian American experience
(26:36):
and to relate to that. So that'sa fun one.
Sheila Akbar (26:39):
Yeah, I just, I love that. I mean, these things
didn't exist 1510, years agoeven. So I just love that there.
There's so many stories that areout there. They're voices that
we can listen to to help usrealize that this is really all
normal and we all need eachother. Well, I think that's a
great place to leave it. Chrisand Lisa, thank you so much for
(27:00):
not only coming on the podcast,but for the work that you're
doing and the perspectives thatyou're raising. I think it's so
so important.
Lisa Chung (27:07):
Thank you.
Chris Loo (27:07):
Thanks so much for having us here, Sheila, this has
been a great yeah, it's beengreat talking to you about these
important issues.
Sheila Akbar (27:14):
Awesome. All right, thank you. Well, I really
could have gone on talking tothem for a very long time and
excited to collaborate furtherwith both of them in the future.
If you look at our show notes,you will find links for all of
the resources that we mentioned,the books, the websites you
know, the organizations, and Ihope you will check those out.
(27:35):
And just a sort of programmingnote, we are going to be
switching to an every other weekrelease of the podcast, so be
aware of that, and I am stilllooking for questions and
situations to coach familiesthrough and students through.
But if you just even have aquestion about college
(27:55):
admissions or testing that you'dlike to have answered on the
show, you can submit thatanonymously. Please see the show
notes, and you will find a linkto do that. All right,
everybody, we'll see you nexttime. Thanks.
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