December 4, 2024 • 36 mins
In today's episode, Signet’s admissions consultant, Joanna Graham, shares expert tips on how to craft a standout college list. From setting achievable goals to building strong study habits and embracing a growth mindset, Joanna offers practical tips that can make a real impact. Tune in for advice that could change the way your student approaches learning—and set them up for success!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joanna Graham (00:00):
Secret, in many ways, starts with the college
(00:02):
list. When you have the rightlist, when this exercise is done
correctly and done properly,this is going to make your
student uniquely competitive,because you are finding schools
that align with things that areimportant to them, things that
they are passionate about, anenvironment in a community where
truly, your student is going tobe able to thrive and flourish
and become the very best versionof themselves.
Sheila Akbar (00:36):
Hi folks, welcome back to the podcast. I hope you
all had a lovely Thanksgiving.
We took the week off, but we'reback with a replay of a very
impactful session I did with mycolleague Joanna Graham on how
to build a college list. Andthis is a question we get a lot.
We actually spend a lot of timeon the college list, and a lot
(00:58):
of parents are like, What arey'all doing over there? Why is
this taking so long? Isn't itlike you just pick the top 20?
And the answer is, No, you don'tjust pick the top 20. So I'm
excited to share with you myconversation with Joanna and her
thoughts about how to build alist so that it really sets your
student up for success and canact like a roadmap for your
(01:19):
entire college admissionsprocess. So this material is
absolutely, very relevant forjuniors, and couldn't hurt if
you have a ninth or 10th graderfor you to listen in and start
gleaning some understandingabout what kind of things you
should be watching for, tryingto understand in your students
learning environment now andtheir goals, so that you can
(01:41):
apply those to the collegeprocess, when the you know,
actual work of the processreally starts a little bit later
in high school. So take alisten, and I'll see you on the
other side. This is going to bereally timely information for
juniors, but even if you have ayounger student, this will be
really helpful for you to kindof get a view of the process.
(02:02):
And you can even start some ofthis early on with your
students, too. And sometimesthat's even advisable, because
sometimes some students justneed a little more time to wrap
their head around, what is thiswhole college process? And wait,
what do you want of me? Now, I'man adult, what? So not a bad
idea to start the conversationearlier. All right, in the
interest of time, I'm going togo ahead and get us started.
(02:26):
We're here to talk about youneed a college list. So how the
heck do you do this thing? And Ihave with me one of my wonderful
colleagues, Joanna, who is aformer Georgetown admissions
officer, has been consulting oncollege and graduate admissions
for 20 years and joined theSignet team in the middle of
(02:46):
last year. This is your secondseason with us, and we are so
lucky to have her on the team,and Joanna is really going to be
talking through most of thecontent.
Joanna Graham (02:56):
Fantastic. Thank you so much, Sheila. We're just
delighted to have you join ustoday to talk about building
college lists. And if this feelsa little bit daunting, you know,
we're here to try and dispelsome of those myths, but also
start giving you a bit of a roadmap on things to consider, just
a bit about me. So Sheila gaveyou a bit of background. I was
first gen in my family to go tocollege. I did my undergrad at
(03:16):
Georgetown, and since then, I'vebuilt a 20 year, 20 plus year
career in the marketing andbranding space. I've held every
job from Product Manager toChief Marketing and chief
product officer in a variety ofcompanies, but really have found
my sweet spots in coachingstudents. It's something that I
absolutely love doing. And whenI when I do this type of work, I
really try to think about thetype of coach or advisor
advocate I wish I would have hadwhen I was going through this
(03:39):
process myself. So let's talkabout building college lists. I
think the first question that alot of parents ask is, you know,
why is the list so important?
The you know, at the end of theday, the list is just that. It's
a list of schools that yourchild is going to be applying
to. But, you know, I always tellfamilies when we start this
process that this really isgoing to be your roadmap, and so
you want to be very intentional.
(04:00):
You want to take the time tothink about what are the things
that are going to be importantto your child as you think about
where he or she or they aregoing to spend the next four
years of their life, this reallydoes set them up for success,
and if done properly, it reallydoes a great job of launching
them to the next phase of theircareer. I like to use this
example when you think aboutbuilding college lists. College
(04:20):
lists are one of those thingsthat, in theory, you could
probably build it in fiveminutes, or you could take five
months to build it, and thesweet spot is probably somewhere
a little bit in the middle. Andthat's really the way you should
be thinking about college lists.
Is that really think about, howare you aligning your efforts
with your child, with yourfamily's goals, and make sure
that you are setting a coursethat is that is really sort of
(04:40):
aligned with what your child'slong term goals are. When you
are able to get this right, thismakes the rest of the process
significantly easier.
Facilitates. It really doesfacilitate the rest of the
admissions process, and this isreally the. Are two reasons
behind this. The first piece is,when you think about the college
process, when you think aboutadmissions, I'm sure folks here
have had recognized and haveseen that colleges are getting
(05:03):
more selective, that there are,if you're looking at a top
schools, it is getting harderand harder to get into some of
these schools. And so families,a lot of times talk about, well,
what is that competitive edge?
How do I make my child standout? The secret, in many ways,
starts with the college list.
When you have the right list,when this exercise is done
correctly and done properly,this is going to make your
student uniquely competitive,because you are finding schools
(05:26):
that align with things that areimportant to them, things that
they are passionate about, anenvironment in a community where
truly, your student is going tobe able to thrive and flourish
and become the very best versionof themselves. You'll also find
is that we talk about being ableto sort of tap into this organic
motivation. If your child islike most teenagers, they are
probably great at getting thingsdone that they are super excited
(05:47):
about, but for the things thatthey are not so excited about,
it is probably like pullingteeth, and for many students,
the college admissions processcan be a bit more like the
latter, especially when theyfeel like they are being either
backed into schools or beingheavily influenced to apply to
schools that aren't necessarilythe schools that they absolutely
love, but the schools that theyfeel are going to unlock the
(06:07):
best version of themselves. It'ssaying that we work with a wide
variety of students. And, youknow, I always, I always think
about a student that I workedwith who, when we started the
process, was really looking at alot of very big, larger sort of
state schools. He wanted a bigcommunity school. Spirit was
really important to him. Thelist that his parents were
really pushing him towardsconsisted more so of smaller
(06:27):
liberal arts colleges. Theythought that, you know, he would
be great at studying history,whereas in reality, he was
interested in studying business.
And so when you have a littlebit of that push, pull tension,
especially when it simmers for awhile, it creates, number one, a
bit of conflict. But two, whenthe student actually sits down
and being asked, Why do theywant to apply to a small liberal
arts college in New England, andcan't articulate the why, it
(06:48):
makes this process incrediblyfrustrating, both for the
students, for the parents, quitefrankly, for the coach of the
consultant who's working withthem. And the reality is it's
just the end product. Thequality is just not going to be
there because the students hardisn't into it. So the right
list, the right school list, istruly going to be that, that
differentiator. So when we sitdown and start talking with
families about building schoollists. I always try to encourage
(07:10):
folks to start with the end inmind. And what that means is,
you know, when I when I ask astudent, you know what, what's
your plan after college? Like,what's the purpose of going to
college? 99% of the time thestudent looks at me and this is,
well, I think I have to get ajob at the end. And it's true.
Yes, you more likely than notyou are going to be looking for
employment after you finish thatfour year degree. But I always
(07:31):
encourage students to think alittle bit more broadly. So yes,
the career is one piece of it.
But is it, you know, is thatcareer sort of the end all be
all, or is that going to be thelaunching pad, potentially, for
graduate school or for anotherpathway that might require a
certification or some type ofmicro credential or nano degree
to layer on top of that fouryear degree. Another thing
(07:51):
that's incredibly important whenyou think about schools too are
the networks. So you hear folkstalking all the time about how
some of their best friends orhow many of their connections or
their first job came through thealumni network at their school.
These are the folks with whomyou're engaging on a regular
basis. And so again, encourageyour students to think about,
you know, what type of network?
Number one, are you looking tobuild? But two, what type of
(08:12):
network are you hoping to tapinto? Are there specific types
of industries that you're hopingto maybe pivot into where, say,
you and your family may notnecessarily have a lot of
experience, whether it be insomething maybe like biotech or
something like finance, beingable to tap into a strong
network that's going to reallyaccelerate your students
trajectory is going to beincredibly important to think
about as well. To think about aswell. And then finally, thinking
(08:35):
about skills. So when you thinkabout what types of soft skills
are, is your student looking tobuild? Are there certain things
that are going to sort of comeout of that collegiate
experience that are going tohelp them become, again, a
better version of themselves?
They're going to help withexecutive function, that are
going to help with that nextphase of life? Really thinking
about, how do you combine that,potentially with with other
(08:57):
technical skills that they maybe looking to build? For many
students, you know, I asked themto start thinking a little bit
about what their high schoolexperience has been like. What
are things that they've lovedabout their high school, and
then what are some of the thingsthat they perhaps wish that they
could have had tapped into ortaken advantage of in high
school that maybe weren'toffered. And for many students,
(09:17):
sometimes these are things likegraphic design or UI UX or
skills that are tied to moretechnical types of roles. And so
it's looking at what types ofthings are offered at these
universities. It's going to be agreat way for you to start
filtering out and prioritizingwhat is going to be really
important. And this sort ofsegues into this next part
around identifying priorities.
So as you start thinking aboutwhat the next four years of your
life is going to be like, Ialways encourage students to
(09:40):
think about for the first timein your life, you are the
architect of your own destiny.
So what are the things that aregoing to be truly important to
you? And if academics is thefirst answer, that's fantastic,
but you have to dig a little bitdeeper. Are you looking for a
certain. Academic major. Are youlooking for academic
flexibility? A lot of studentstalk about how much they love
Brown's open curriculum. Are youlooking for something like the
(10:03):
Co Op program that Northeasternoffers? So all sorts of
different types of academicexperiences and learning
experiences are certainly goingto color the type of experience
you have in school. And this iscertainly something to think
about at a very high level. Soin terms of breaking this down
into slightly more tacticalsteps. So if this still feels a
little bit overwhelming, let'stalk a little bit about what
some of this can look like. Andso we'll talk a lot about
(10:25):
preferences. So you cancertainly use a tool like this
campus compass checklist. Irealize that's a mouthful. It
doesn't roll out the tongue verynicely, but it's a great way to
start thinking about some ofthese preferences, some of these
parameters and things that aregoing to be uniquely important
to your child. Perhaps it, youknow, as I mentioned before,
perhaps it's academics, perhapsit's study abroad,
opportunities. Perhaps there areother things that your students
(10:48):
will articulate as they startthat maybe weren't, weren't
apparent initially, as theystart digging into schools a
little bit more deeply. And Ipromise you, the more you dig
into schools. The more you getinto this process, probably the
more confusing it'll be atfirst, but it does. There is
some clarity. There is somelight at the tunnel. These are
all great questions for you andyour students to be having now,
as opposed to say, spring ofsenior year, when maybe it's a
(11:11):
little too late at that point togo back. So these are all great
conversation starters. The nextstep here is to use a search
engine to start building areally broad initial list. And I
always tell students that asthey think about the things that
are important to them, encouragethem to think about, sort of
what are some of those dealbreakers. So the ideal school
for me has to have this onething or these two things.
(11:31):
Otherwise, I don't know if Inecessarily want to apply there.
And then there are a lot ofthings that fall in the middle
and sort of on the spectrum ofwhat we call the nice to haves.
So it would be great if therewas a Greek system. It would be
great if they had if theyguaranteed housing for four
years, but it is not going tonecessarily be a deal breaker.
And so you can start using someof these search engines to build
(11:51):
lists. And then you can startranking or rating some of these
schools as you start to do yourresearch to see how many of
those parameters do they meet onyour list, there's some great
sites, like big feature, Eastercollege navigator, where you can
start building lists. If some ofthese sound a little foreign to
you, definitely feel free tostart Googling these on your own
as well. You'll find that allthe sites function in some ways,
(12:12):
in a very similar way, but theydo have some some very distinct
value adds. And I think a lot ofit just comes down to personal
preference. In terms of whichsite you feel most comfortable
navigating. We always try toencourage students and families
that the best search engine isgoing to be the one that you
feel comfortable using and theone where you feel that you
understand the the results thatyou're getting. And then the
(12:32):
next step here is this idea of,sort of continuing to research,
refine and validate. So as youstart learning about schools and
building these lists, Iencourage families to start with
a matrix and to include some ofthose criteria that you've
identified as important, andstart populating that matrix
with the data for yourindividual schools, so it feels
a little bit more like you'recomparing schools on an apples
to apples basis. The otherthing, most importantly, I would
(12:55):
say, here, is it's also not abad thing to start deleting
schools from your list. There isno award or prize for you to
have, or a badge of honor towear. If you have 75 schools on
your list that you just can'tYou can't dare to get rid of a
couple of them, is you findschools that you like better. So
think of it kind of like thetest at the eye doctor, which
one's better, A or B and then Bor C. You know, definitely feel
(13:15):
free to, you know, to beproactive about removing schools
that don't feel like they'regoing to be the best fit for
you. There's absolutely no harmin doing so. And number two,
it'll make it a lot easier thanfor you to start comparing
schools that you truly areinterested in in a much more
detailed and deeper way as well.
Sheila, was there anything elsethat you wanted to add with
regards to sort of our step bystep approach here?
Sheila Akbar (13:36):
Sure, that was really great and comprehensive.
I think our next slide goes intoa little bit more of the
research that we want you to do,but I think the idea is start
broad and then validate, right,validate every little thing. And
Joanna, you said this, but I'mgoing to re emphasize it,
because I can't stress itenough. Have the hard
conversation now, before you doall the work of applying,
(13:58):
because when you do find theschools that are a good fit for
you, those schools are alsolooking for you, right? The Fit
goes both ways. So you'reincreasing your chances of
acceptance by applying toschools where you know there's
going to be a great sense ofbelonging that they offer the
things that you specifically arelooking for, because they offer
those things to attract studentsthat are looking for those
(14:20):
things, right? So have the hardconversations up front. Take
schools off the list, likeJoanna is saying, cut through
the noise and focus on whatmatters most to you. And the
campus compass checklist issomething that you're going to
get for free as part of thefollow up of this. So you'll
have a worksheet that you canwork through with your student,
or you can do it separately fromyour student and then compare
(14:43):
notes, but it's a great way tostart those conversations about
what really matters to you inyour college search.
Joanna Graham (14:50):
So we'll talk about the thorough research
here. So there are a couple ofthings to think about. So first
off, the quantitative data isprobably the easiest part. So
these are the things likeaverage SAT or att. Scores,
average GPA, you know, even eventhings like average retention
rate, sort of students comingback sophomore year. So these
are all of the basic statisticsto give you a better sense of
what a student profile lookslike in a very quantifiable and
(15:11):
measurable way. One of the otherthings I encourage families to
think about with regards toquantitative data. In addition
to those, admission statisticsare starting to dig into career
services and what they have tooffer as well, too. I always
tell families, I think this isone of the most overlooked
places. People don't knock onCareer Services doors until fall
of senior year often, and thisis what you should be doing,
summer of junior year in highschool, fall of senior year in
(15:34):
high school, not senior year ofcollege. These folks are going
to be your very best friends,but they're also going to give
you a really good indication ofthe type of support that you can
expect, and also the types ofjobs, the types of salaries that
you might expect once you aregraduating. And so if
ultimately, the end goal here isto land a role that you love, at
a company that you love, in anindustry that you love, ask some
(15:54):
of the tough questions, youknow, ask them what companies
are coming to campus to recruit.
Can students attend events atother local universities? Does
the school help facilitate that?
Do they put out a report everyyear that shows where graduating
seniors are landing, what typesof roles are landing? What are
the titles? How within 90 days,within six months of graduation,
what percentage of seniors havelanded full time jobs? It's
(16:14):
going to be really interesting,very telling for you to start
digging into that data, not justat a university level, but also
at a school specific level. So Ialways encourage families to if
you're applying to a veryspecific school, an engineering
school, a business school, makesure that you're asking for that
data at an industry specific orat a school specific level. And
know too that many schools willhave separate Career Centers for
(16:35):
individual schools as well, inaddition to a more broad, sort
of general one for allundergraduates. When you think
about the qualitative insights,these are the things when you
start thinking about fits and sowhen we talk about culture,
belonging, community, you know,when students talk about setting
foot on a campus and sort ofjust getting that feeling that
they just know that this is theplace for them. Those are the
qualitative insights. This isthe magic. And this can be a
(16:57):
wide variety of things. You cancertainly suss out a lot of
this, I think, by starting withcollege websites. But the
reality is, is that after awhile, college websites all kind
of start to sound the same.
They're using probably a lot ofthe same buzzwords, and
truthfully, they're all going tosay that they are fantastic at
accounting and statistics andhistory. And frankly, there
isn't necessarily some magicglitter or pixie dust that
Harvard is sprinkling on theirbrand of accounting that a
(17:19):
community college in Las Vegasis necessarily doesn't have
access to, because accounting isaccounting. But when you start
to think about thoseintangibles, these are the
qualitative pieces that youthink about, who are the
students you're surroundingyourself with? Who are the
professors who are teachingthese courses? What types of
things are they researching? Dothey take on students as interns
to help with that research? Dothey get actively involved with
(17:40):
supporting students in the jobhunting or internship process?
These are some of theintangibles that really help
students start to realize, isthis the place that feels like
like I could be successfuldigging into student
organizations. So I alwaysencourage students, you know,
take a look. Definitely feelfree to leverage social media in
this way without going down toodeep and dark of a black hole.
But it's always really nice tosort of see some of that student
(18:02):
generated content. To see if aschool is touting that they have
over 200 undergraduate clubs.
That is fantastic. But thereality is that, you know,
probably a handful of them areare super active on campus. So
take a look at the clubs you'reinterested in, see if they have
a website, see if they have apresence on social media, and
then see what they're actuallydoing and what students are
talking about. It's a great wayto start getting a sense of
(18:24):
culture and also getting aglimpse at the types of students
you're going to be surroundingyourself with. And do these feel
like people you would want to befriends with or roommates with?
Even these are all the thingsthat I also encourage students
as you're building out thesematrices and you're starting to
rank schools, to come up withsome type of rating, and it can
be whatever you want it to be,but you know, on a scale of one
(18:45):
to 10, how do I feel about if Isaw one of the business
fraternities, how do I feelabout the folks who I saw? Do
these feel like people who Iwould be friends with, and start
again. The idea is to try tocreate some sort of ranking
system, or rating system here,where you it feels like you're
comparing apples to apples.
Because the other piece thatyou'll find is that the more you
learn about schools, the moreschools you add to your list.
They do start to run together atsome point. And so it is
(19:07):
important to try to come up withsome type of system that'll be
that'll be helpful to keep themost right, and then last but
not least, and this is probablythe most important part here, is
the connection and engagementpiece. And so obviously you want
to be engaging with admissionsfolks on campuses. Attend online
events when available, attendpanel discussions, anything that
you can. Some schools will trackthings like demonstrated
(19:27):
interest. Many do not. But it iscertainly never going to hurt
you to attend an event that aschool is hosting where you have
an opportunity to learn a littlebit more about what the school
offers. Because you often havedifferent folks who are
delivering these sessions, youmay learn something a little bit
different about the university.
And so there's certainly, Idon't think there's any harm and
redundancy there. But the otherthing to think about is, you
(19:50):
know, this is when you starttapping into your current
network. So do you have afriend, a. Neighbor, a second
cousin's sister twice removed,something, something who may
have gone to a school thatyou're interested in, or is
studying something maybe thatyou are interested in. This is
where you want to be reallyaggressive about trying to reach
out and schedule virtual or inperson coffee chats, or, I guess
maybe, if you're a high schoolstudent, a smoothie chat or a
(20:12):
frappuccino chat, something likethat, but spending time and
actually getting to know folks,asking questions about what
their experiences were like, andreally trying to build some of
those connections, all right? Solet's talk a little bit about
some of the pitfalls. So we'vepainted this lovely picture for
you about how wonderful theprocess is and all the wonderful
things you're going to learn.
There are some pitfalls in thisjourney, or some distractors
(20:32):
that we always want to call outto you know, I think it can be
very, very easy to getdistracted by the rankings and
by brand. There are so manystudents who will come in with a
list and they'll just say, youknow, it's Ivy League robust.
And they don't necessarily knowwhich schools are are going to
specialize in certain things.
They don't even know necessarilywhat they want to study. They
know that they just want tostudy at one of these schools
(20:54):
because this is a brand thatthey've heard of. Again, we go
back to what we were talkingabout at the beginning. The
right list is going to unlockyour competitive advantage. And
if, if you're not able to talkabout why you are a good fit for
a school, it is going to bevery, very obvious in the
essays, and it is going to bevery obvious to folks reading
those applications, I can tellyou right now. I mean having
read applications for a coupleof years that it really stands
(21:16):
out when you can tell when astudent has written one essay
and is just cut and pasted intoevery single application, if
there's no customization, ifthere's no sense that they
understand what the schoolstands for, what their mission
statement is, what they value,that is going to be very
obvious. And and you can havethe best grades and the best
test scores in the world, butschools want students who
genuinely want to be there andunderstand what they're going to
(21:38):
get out of that experience. Andso I really encourage folks to
make sure that you're thinkingabout what your personal ranking
is going to be at schools,because frankly, you know US
News World Report, or any of theother rankings out there, you
know they're going to be theones that you're talking to
about how much you love ordislike a program. So make sure
that you're really starting tothink about what are the things
that are important to you, andbuilding that own person, that
(22:01):
personal ranking system. I thinkone of the other things here is
really not being clear in yourmind about what those non
negotiables are versus thethings that you need and the
things that you want. And soreally spending some time
thinking about what is going tobe truly important and truly
crucial to giving you asuccessful four year experience.
And the reality is, is thatcollege sometimes is one of the
first times when students arefaced with some really hard and
(22:23):
fast metrics and numbers, and ifthere isn't alignment on some of
these things, they can end upbeing distractors. And so we
talk a lot about fit. We talk alot about encouraging students
to pursue their dreams, but italso is really important to make
sure that your school list isvery realistic. You want to make
sure that you have a mix ofschools that you know that
certainly are a bit aggressive,like let's go after those dream
(22:43):
schools, but not at the expenseof the schools on your list,
that that really are also justas good, if not better, about
fits, culturally, academically,but where we feel that you're
going to be incrediblycompetitive, and so it's
important to create thatbalance. As you're going through
this process, there are studentswho come, like I said, will be
sometimes with an Ivy League.
Listen, the reality is that theIvy League schools are so
competitive that they're goingto be reaches for anyone. But
(23:05):
you want to make sure thatyou're creating some balance.
And still again, going after,you know, going after
aggressively, some of thosedream schools, or some of those
reach schools, but also beingreally realistic, to make sure
that you are giving yourself asmany options as possible come
springtime of your senior year,as I mentioned at the beginning.
You know, rushing this processis really going to sort of
dictate, I think, the how therest of the admissions journey
(23:27):
goes for you. So making surethat you invest the time and
energy. And honestly, I thinkthe massaging part of this
process, the research and thevalidation parts, it's a cycle
that goes on and on. I mean,there are students who will add
schools at the last minutebecause they learn something at
an info session or a school cameto their to their high school to
speak. There's nothing wrongwith adding schools. It's not
like there's a deadline for whenyou have to stop adding schools,
(23:49):
but it is important that you dostart the process early and that
you have a very clear sense ofwhat you're looking what you're
looking for, and that, moreimportantly, that you're not
rushing this to too late intoyour into your high school
career. And then lastly, just aquick note here on parental
expectations, I think thateveryone probably has a the
story, or has some has somememory of what the college
application process was like forthat. And it could maybe be very
(24:11):
positive. Maybe it's one thatyou make you cringe a little
bit. But I always encourageparents, before you start down
this journey with your child,just to take a moment and think
about what your applicationjourney was like, and if there
are things that maybe give you alittle twitch in your neck, I
always encourage parents toreally think about what is the
type of support that you felt,that you needed when you were
applying to college. Did you getit and then you obviously know
(24:34):
your child better than anyoneelse. What is the type of
support that your child is goingto need through this process and
making sure that you're notconflating those two, I think
the other piece too is thatreminding parents that you have
to keep in mind whose name is onthat application, and so college
is not necessarily a secondopportunity to go chasing after
some. Dreams, or some differentpathways maybe that were left,
that were left unturned before.
(24:57):
And so really making sure thatyou keep in mind that your child
is at the center of thisprocess, and that you are
honoring their preferences andtheir journey, I think just a
couple of additional notes hereon sort of the reflection and
engagement part. So as Imentioned, sort of the personal
experiences are going to behuge. The supportive guidance,
obviously is going to be doingbe crucial. You know, again, I
think parents, we we playeddifferent roles in this process
(25:19):
with our kids. Certainly adviceand encouragement is going to be
because, I think it's going toprobably be best received and
most welcome. Certainly, thereare going to be times when you
may have to project managethings and apply a little bit of
pressure as well too, especiallywhen it comes to making some
decisions, it's really importantto just try to figure out what's
what that equilibrium sort ofpoint is between those two, then
(25:39):
making sure that this does feellike a collaborative process.
They can't tell you how manytimes there are families where I
almost feel like I'm mediating abit, because there is a
disconnect in terms of ofexpectations, in terms of the
roles, and so it's reallyimportant to have these
conversations early and often,especially before the pressure
starts to starts to turn up asyou get further into junior
year, into senior year, and thenlastly, you know, again, I think
(26:01):
the last part here wascommunication is just this is
going to be something thatobviously comes out of
supportive guidance and all theconversations that you have that
are open, honest andtransparent. It's really going
to be important to make surethat you're listening to your
child and what their hopes,their dreams and their concerns
throughout this entire processare as well. I think the college
admissions process looks verydifferent now than it did when
(26:22):
when most of us were applying tocollege, but it's important to
make sure that we're that we'rerecognizing that, that we're
listening and that we'rehonoring that throughout the
process as well.
Sheila Akbar (26:32):
Really well, said, Joanna. I want to chime in here,
because we are seeing this nowwith the parents of our seniors,
right? Who, you know, maybeapplied. Did some early
applications just last month,and are getting ready to submit
some more. One thing I like toremind parents is that this
process is part of the processof letting your child fly from
(26:53):
the nest, right? And this is agreat place to practice giving
them ownership of their life, oftheir dreams, of, you know,
their process, right? And thatdoesn't mean completely step
back, but it does mean thinkabout where you can give them a
little bit more autonomy andjust be a supporter from the
sidelines and other places whereyou may need to step in and
(27:16):
project manage, but it's a greatplace to practice shifting your
relationship with your child asthey start to become a young
adult. You know, if they'reabout to embark on this process,
they're going to leave homewithin the next two years or so,
and you want them to be readyfor that. And this is a great
place to start trying that outand shifting the relationship.
Joanna Graham (27:39):
Great points.
Thank you, Sheila, so a coupleof additional notes, as you're
building your list and as you'regoing through this process. So
this idea of building out atimeline, so I think you've
heard this a couple times nowfrom me, but making sure that
you are dedicating sufficienttime for research when you go
through this process and it isrushed or you feel pressured to
be really candid, a lot of folksmake bad decisions, so taking
the time again to make sure thatyou're carving out time. The
(28:00):
other thing I would say too is,you know, if you have multiple
children, a lot of families, Ithink, sometimes fall into this
trap of assuming that if they'vegone through this process with
one child, it'll be the same orvery similar with the second
child or third child. And, youknow, and the reality is, is
that for some families there,I've worked with families where
they have four children, andthree of the four children all
want to study the same thing,and all want to go to the same
(28:23):
school and have very similargrade and test scores. It very,
very rarely works out like that.
What I would encourage you tothink about is, you know, for
every child, think aboutbuilding a framework that's
going to work for every child inyour family. And if you do have
younger children, certainly feelfree to involve them in certain
pieces of this. I think it'scertainly good to expose them to
here's what it's going to looklike. But don't feel like they
(28:46):
have to be an activeparticipant. Every child is
going to go through this processin their own way. And so making
sure that you're creating spacefor each child to have that
their own experience is going tobe incredibly important as well.
Now one of the things that youcan carry over is the
documentation piece. So if youbuild a matrix with fields that
you love and something thatworks really well for you. Or if
you build a Gantt chart formanaging applications and all of
(29:08):
those deadlines you absolutelylove, save that template. Share
it with your friends and familyif you'd like. Save it for your
next child. Again you want thatare certainly going to work well
for you. But the bestdocumentation system, the best
templates, are going to be onesthat that you understand and
that you that you use, and we dohave some wonderful if you're
wondering, How in the world do Ieven go about building a
template? Sheila will talk toyou in a little bit about some
(29:30):
of the wonderful gifts that wehave for you all, where we do
make this process a little biteasier for you. But above all, I
would encourage you to make surethat everything is centralized,
though, so have it livesomewhere where everyone has
access to it, where everyone canweigh in and provide comments.
Google Drive is a fantasticresource for this, and that way,
everyone can go in and add theirown comments as you go, and then
just the last week, reiterateagain, the importance of
(29:53):
evaluating and regularly goingback and refining that list.
Again. There's no award for thefamily who has 75 schools on
their list, and frankly, if youwere to show up to a meeting
with Sheila or me. 75 schools wemight fall out of our chair
heavily encourage you to starttrimming that back. The best
list is going to be a list thatincludes those mix of schools
where your student is going tobe competitive, but more
importantly, where your studentfeels they could be successful
(30:15):
regardless of the selectivityfactor of that school.
Sheila Akbar (30:18):
Great. So Joanna, thank you very much. I'll let
you rest your voice for aminute, and I'll take over the
mic for a little bit. I want togo through the most frequently
asked questions. Joanna, youalluded to this, but we don't
want 75 colleges on your list.
In fact, most applicationplatforms limit your number of
applications to 20. Even thatseems high to me. Now,
certainly, this is more than youor I would have applied to when
(30:41):
we were going through it. Butthe world has changed. College
applications are now digital,and people submit more
applications per student, so ourrecommendation is between 10 and
15 schools on your final finallist. Now you might start with
30 or 40 on your initialresearch list, but as you do
that research, you're going towhittle that down and focus in
on the schools that really domeet the needs and preferences
(31:04):
that you've mapped out foryourself. And there are some
students where it makes sense toapply to a little bit more, some
where it makes sense to apply tofewer, but a good guideline is
between 10 and 15, and then thatlist of schools should include a
mix of what we call likely,target and reach schools. And
some people, instead of usingthe word likely, they'll call it
(31:27):
a safety but these schoolsshould all meet the needs and
preferences that your studentsset out. But the difference
between them should really betheir selectivity, right? And I
like to see at least two truelikelies. Now these are ones
where there is just no questionyour student is getting in
right, and you may getinformation from a friend in
(31:48):
your network or even from yourschool's own internal database
on Naviance or score or Maya orwhatever platform they use. That
shows you some really, reallyselective school is basically a
safety for the student, and Ireally hate that that happens.
It really misaligned certainexpectations. Generally, for me,
(32:10):
a school that has a lower than75% acceptance rate is not a
safety is not a likely school,right? We really want just
guarantee we have options right,and you should still be happy to
go to this school, right? Itmaybe is not your dream school,
but you should be able to studywhat you want to study. You
(32:31):
should be able to learn from whoyou want to learn from, and be
around the kind of peers thatyou really want to be around in
a culture that you really value.
So at least two true likelyschools, and then I usually say
six or seven of these should betarget schools where your
students selective stats, theirSAT score, their GPA, their
(32:52):
general academic profile isright in line with the average,
or the middle 50% of what thatschool accepts and that data is
publicly available. Any of thosesearch engines that we mentioned
earlier, pretty much any searchengine, college search engine
that you would Google, they allpull from the same set of data.
They're just showing you thatdata in different ways. Right?
(33:14):
So it doesn't really matterwhich one you go to, but a
target school is really whereyour student is, right in line
with what typically getsaccepted at that school. And
then the reach schools would bemaybe three or four of them
where your student is not quiteup to the average, but hopefully
not not too far away from it.
And you know, there are going tobe some schools that are, you
(33:37):
know, the super reaches, the farreaches, like the Ivy League
schools that have single digitacceptance rates. The vast
majority of students do not getin. And that doesn't mean you
shouldn't apply to them if itfeels like a really good fit,
but you should just manage yourexpectations. And you want to
think about this like aportfolio. You wouldn't put all
of your investments into thehighest risk stocks. You really
want to distribute yourinvestments. So that's that's
(34:00):
what we want to do with ourschool list. And then finally,
the best resources. They come inall shapes and sizes and
formats, but the best resourceis the one that you or your
student is actually going touse. Joanna, you mentioned this.
There are going to be thingsthat just feel easier for you. I
have some students who preferusing the FISC guide to college
is a print book, and justflipping through the pages, I
(34:22):
have another person who likesusing a website called College
results.org which has a mapfeature where you can kind of
zoom in on a certain area of thecountry and set some parameters
and see what what comes upthere. And then, you know, big
future is the College Boardsearch tool niche.com is also a
really great one. And you know,some of them integrate reviews
or different kind of searchparameters that you can use, but
(34:44):
there's no one that is betterthan the other. You should just
use the one that you're you feelcomfortable using. All right, we
did have a lot of greatquestions from the audience
that, of course, I stripped offof this recording for. You, but
I wanted to plug again that weare pivoting to a live coaching
model, and a lot of people arelike, what's live coaching? I
(35:06):
don't know if I have an hour ofcontent, or even a half an hour
of content, I just have, like,this one question. The one
question is perfectly fine. I'lltell you in this session that we
did, we had about three or fourquestions, and they took up
about 20 minutes, you know, andwe could have gone into a lot
more detail and a lot moreindividualized kind of responses
to those questions. So even ifyou just have, like, one
(35:29):
question that you think ispretty simple, don't be shy and
submit it on the form that'll belinked in the show notes, so
that you can join me on thepodcast, or, you know, one of my
other experts, if I'm not theright person to answer your
question, to really go throughhow we think about it, how we
would encourage you to navigatethe situation, because so many
people are probably wonderingthe exact same thing, and
(35:51):
they're going to benefit so muchfrom you coming forward and
saying, I have this question.
Can somebody explain this to me?
So please take advantage of thatif it's relevant for you. All
right, thank you, as always, forjoining us. We'll see you next
time bye.
Secret, in many ways, starts with the college
(00:02):
list. When you have the rightlist, when this exercise is done
correctly and done properly,this is going to make your
student uniquely competitive,because you are finding schools
that align with things that areimportant to them, things that
they are passionate about, anenvironment in a community where
truly, your student is going tobe able to thrive and flourish
and become the very best versionof themselves.
Sheila Akbar (00:36):
Hi folks, welcome back to the podcast. I hope you
all had a lovely Thanksgiving.
We took the week off, but we'reback with a replay of a very
impactful session I did with mycolleague Joanna Graham on how
to build a college list. Andthis is a question we get a lot.
We actually spend a lot of timeon the college list, and a lot
(00:58):
of parents are like, What arey'all doing over there? Why is
this taking so long? Isn't itlike you just pick the top 20?
And the answer is, No, you don'tjust pick the top 20. So I'm
excited to share with you myconversation with Joanna and her
thoughts about how to build alist so that it really sets your
student up for success and canact like a roadmap for your
(01:19):
entire college admissionsprocess. So this material is
absolutely, very relevant forjuniors, and couldn't hurt if
you have a ninth or 10th graderfor you to listen in and start
gleaning some understandingabout what kind of things you
should be watching for, tryingto understand in your students
learning environment now andtheir goals, so that you can
(01:41):
apply those to the collegeprocess, when the you know,
actual work of the processreally starts a little bit later
in high school. So take alisten, and I'll see you on the
other side. This is going to bereally timely information for
juniors, but even if you have ayounger student, this will be
really helpful for you to kindof get a view of the process.
(02:02):
And you can even start some ofthis early on with your
students, too. And sometimesthat's even advisable, because
sometimes some students justneed a little more time to wrap
their head around, what is thiswhole college process? And wait,
what do you want of me? Now, I'man adult, what? So not a bad
idea to start the conversationearlier. All right, in the
interest of time, I'm going togo ahead and get us started.
(02:26):
We're here to talk about youneed a college list. So how the
heck do you do this thing? And Ihave with me one of my wonderful
colleagues, Joanna, who is aformer Georgetown admissions
officer, has been consulting oncollege and graduate admissions
for 20 years and joined theSignet team in the middle of
(02:46):
last year. This is your secondseason with us, and we are so
lucky to have her on the team,and Joanna is really going to be
talking through most of thecontent.
Joanna Graham (02:56):
Fantastic. Thank you so much, Sheila. We're just
delighted to have you join ustoday to talk about building
college lists. And if this feelsa little bit daunting, you know,
we're here to try and dispelsome of those myths, but also
start giving you a bit of a roadmap on things to consider, just
a bit about me. So Sheila gaveyou a bit of background. I was
first gen in my family to go tocollege. I did my undergrad at
(03:16):
Georgetown, and since then, I'vebuilt a 20 year, 20 plus year
career in the marketing andbranding space. I've held every
job from Product Manager toChief Marketing and chief
product officer in a variety ofcompanies, but really have found
my sweet spots in coachingstudents. It's something that I
absolutely love doing. And whenI when I do this type of work, I
really try to think about thetype of coach or advisor
advocate I wish I would have hadwhen I was going through this
(03:39):
process myself. So let's talkabout building college lists. I
think the first question that alot of parents ask is, you know,
why is the list so important?
The you know, at the end of theday, the list is just that. It's
a list of schools that yourchild is going to be applying
to. But, you know, I always tellfamilies when we start this
process that this really isgoing to be your roadmap, and so
you want to be very intentional.
(04:00):
You want to take the time tothink about what are the things
that are going to be importantto your child as you think about
where he or she or they aregoing to spend the next four
years of their life, this reallydoes set them up for success,
and if done properly, it reallydoes a great job of launching
them to the next phase of theircareer. I like to use this
example when you think aboutbuilding college lists. College
(04:20):
lists are one of those thingsthat, in theory, you could
probably build it in fiveminutes, or you could take five
months to build it, and thesweet spot is probably somewhere
a little bit in the middle. Andthat's really the way you should
be thinking about college lists.
Is that really think about, howare you aligning your efforts
with your child, with yourfamily's goals, and make sure
that you are setting a coursethat is that is really sort of
(04:40):
aligned with what your child'slong term goals are. When you
are able to get this right, thismakes the rest of the process
significantly easier.
Facilitates. It really doesfacilitate the rest of the
admissions process, and this isreally the. Are two reasons
behind this. The first piece is,when you think about the college
process, when you think aboutadmissions, I'm sure folks here
have had recognized and haveseen that colleges are getting
(05:03):
more selective, that there are,if you're looking at a top
schools, it is getting harderand harder to get into some of
these schools. And so families,a lot of times talk about, well,
what is that competitive edge?
How do I make my child standout? The secret, in many ways,
starts with the college list.
When you have the right list,when this exercise is done
correctly and done properly,this is going to make your
student uniquely competitive,because you are finding schools
(05:26):
that align with things that areimportant to them, things that
they are passionate about, anenvironment in a community where
truly, your student is going tobe able to thrive and flourish
and become the very best versionof themselves. You'll also find
is that we talk about being ableto sort of tap into this organic
motivation. If your child islike most teenagers, they are
probably great at getting thingsdone that they are super excited
(05:47):
about, but for the things thatthey are not so excited about,
it is probably like pullingteeth, and for many students,
the college admissions processcan be a bit more like the
latter, especially when theyfeel like they are being either
backed into schools or beingheavily influenced to apply to
schools that aren't necessarilythe schools that they absolutely
love, but the schools that theyfeel are going to unlock the
(06:07):
best version of themselves. It'ssaying that we work with a wide
variety of students. And, youknow, I always, I always think
about a student that I workedwith who, when we started the
process, was really looking at alot of very big, larger sort of
state schools. He wanted a bigcommunity school. Spirit was
really important to him. Thelist that his parents were
really pushing him towardsconsisted more so of smaller
(06:27):
liberal arts colleges. Theythought that, you know, he would
be great at studying history,whereas in reality, he was
interested in studying business.
And so when you have a littlebit of that push, pull tension,
especially when it simmers for awhile, it creates, number one, a
bit of conflict. But two, whenthe student actually sits down
and being asked, Why do theywant to apply to a small liberal
arts college in New England, andcan't articulate the why, it
(06:48):
makes this process incrediblyfrustrating, both for the
students, for the parents, quitefrankly, for the coach of the
consultant who's working withthem. And the reality is it's
just the end product. Thequality is just not going to be
there because the students hardisn't into it. So the right
list, the right school list, istruly going to be that, that
differentiator. So when we sitdown and start talking with
families about building schoollists. I always try to encourage
(07:10):
folks to start with the end inmind. And what that means is,
you know, when I when I ask astudent, you know what, what's
your plan after college? Like,what's the purpose of going to
college? 99% of the time thestudent looks at me and this is,
well, I think I have to get ajob at the end. And it's true.
Yes, you more likely than notyou are going to be looking for
employment after you finish thatfour year degree. But I always
(07:31):
encourage students to think alittle bit more broadly. So yes,
the career is one piece of it.
But is it, you know, is thatcareer sort of the end all be
all, or is that going to be thelaunching pad, potentially, for
graduate school or for anotherpathway that might require a
certification or some type ofmicro credential or nano degree
to layer on top of that fouryear degree. Another thing
(07:51):
that's incredibly important whenyou think about schools too are
the networks. So you hear folkstalking all the time about how
some of their best friends orhow many of their connections or
their first job came through thealumni network at their school.
These are the folks with whomyou're engaging on a regular
basis. And so again, encourageyour students to think about,
you know, what type of network?
Number one, are you looking tobuild? But two, what type of
(08:12):
network are you hoping to tapinto? Are there specific types
of industries that you're hopingto maybe pivot into where, say,
you and your family may notnecessarily have a lot of
experience, whether it be insomething maybe like biotech or
something like finance, beingable to tap into a strong
network that's going to reallyaccelerate your students
trajectory is going to beincredibly important to think
about as well. To think about aswell. And then finally, thinking
(08:35):
about skills. So when you thinkabout what types of soft skills
are, is your student looking tobuild? Are there certain things
that are going to sort of comeout of that collegiate
experience that are going tohelp them become, again, a
better version of themselves?
They're going to help withexecutive function, that are
going to help with that nextphase of life? Really thinking
about, how do you combine that,potentially with with other
(08:57):
technical skills that they maybe looking to build? For many
students, you know, I asked themto start thinking a little bit
about what their high schoolexperience has been like. What
are things that they've lovedabout their high school, and
then what are some of the thingsthat they perhaps wish that they
could have had tapped into ortaken advantage of in high
school that maybe weren'toffered. And for many students,
(09:17):
sometimes these are things likegraphic design or UI UX or
skills that are tied to moretechnical types of roles. And so
it's looking at what types ofthings are offered at these
universities. It's going to be agreat way for you to start
filtering out and prioritizingwhat is going to be really
important. And this sort ofsegues into this next part
around identifying priorities.
So as you start thinking aboutwhat the next four years of your
life is going to be like, Ialways encourage students to
(09:40):
think about for the first timein your life, you are the
architect of your own destiny.
So what are the things that aregoing to be truly important to
you? And if academics is thefirst answer, that's fantastic,
but you have to dig a little bitdeeper. Are you looking for a
certain. Academic major. Are youlooking for academic
flexibility? A lot of studentstalk about how much they love
Brown's open curriculum. Are youlooking for something like the
(10:03):
Co Op program that Northeasternoffers? So all sorts of
different types of academicexperiences and learning
experiences are certainly goingto color the type of experience
you have in school. And this iscertainly something to think
about at a very high level. Soin terms of breaking this down
into slightly more tacticalsteps. So if this still feels a
little bit overwhelming, let'stalk a little bit about what
some of this can look like. Andso we'll talk a lot about
(10:25):
preferences. So you cancertainly use a tool like this
campus compass checklist. Irealize that's a mouthful. It
doesn't roll out the tongue verynicely, but it's a great way to
start thinking about some ofthese preferences, some of these
parameters and things that aregoing to be uniquely important
to your child. Perhaps it, youknow, as I mentioned before,
perhaps it's academics, perhapsit's study abroad,
opportunities. Perhaps there areother things that your students
(10:48):
will articulate as they startthat maybe weren't, weren't
apparent initially, as theystart digging into schools a
little bit more deeply. And Ipromise you, the more you dig
into schools. The more you getinto this process, probably the
more confusing it'll be atfirst, but it does. There is
some clarity. There is somelight at the tunnel. These are
all great questions for you andyour students to be having now,
as opposed to say, spring ofsenior year, when maybe it's a
(11:11):
little too late at that point togo back. So these are all great
conversation starters. The nextstep here is to use a search
engine to start building areally broad initial list. And I
always tell students that asthey think about the things that
are important to them, encouragethem to think about, sort of
what are some of those dealbreakers. So the ideal school
for me has to have this onething or these two things.
(11:31):
Otherwise, I don't know if Inecessarily want to apply there.
And then there are a lot ofthings that fall in the middle
and sort of on the spectrum ofwhat we call the nice to haves.
So it would be great if therewas a Greek system. It would be
great if they had if theyguaranteed housing for four
years, but it is not going tonecessarily be a deal breaker.
And so you can start using someof these search engines to build
(11:51):
lists. And then you can startranking or rating some of these
schools as you start to do yourresearch to see how many of
those parameters do they meet onyour list, there's some great
sites, like big feature, Eastercollege navigator, where you can
start building lists. If some ofthese sound a little foreign to
you, definitely feel free tostart Googling these on your own
as well. You'll find that allthe sites function in some ways,
(12:12):
in a very similar way, but theydo have some some very distinct
value adds. And I think a lot ofit just comes down to personal
preference. In terms of whichsite you feel most comfortable
navigating. We always try toencourage students and families
that the best search engine isgoing to be the one that you
feel comfortable using and theone where you feel that you
understand the the results thatyou're getting. And then the
(12:32):
next step here is this idea of,sort of continuing to research,
refine and validate. So as youstart learning about schools and
building these lists, Iencourage families to start with
a matrix and to include some ofthose criteria that you've
identified as important, andstart populating that matrix
with the data for yourindividual schools, so it feels
a little bit more like you'recomparing schools on an apples
to apples basis. The otherthing, most importantly, I would
(12:55):
say, here, is it's also not abad thing to start deleting
schools from your list. There isno award or prize for you to
have, or a badge of honor towear. If you have 75 schools on
your list that you just can'tYou can't dare to get rid of a
couple of them, is you findschools that you like better. So
think of it kind of like thetest at the eye doctor, which
one's better, A or B and then Bor C. You know, definitely feel
(13:15):
free to, you know, to beproactive about removing schools
that don't feel like they'regoing to be the best fit for
you. There's absolutely no harmin doing so. And number two,
it'll make it a lot easier thanfor you to start comparing
schools that you truly areinterested in in a much more
detailed and deeper way as well.
Sheila, was there anything elsethat you wanted to add with
regards to sort of our step bystep approach here?
Sheila Akbar (13:36):
Sure, that was really great and comprehensive.
I think our next slide goes intoa little bit more of the
research that we want you to do,but I think the idea is start
broad and then validate, right,validate every little thing. And
Joanna, you said this, but I'mgoing to re emphasize it,
because I can't stress itenough. Have the hard
conversation now, before you doall the work of applying,
(13:58):
because when you do find theschools that are a good fit for
you, those schools are alsolooking for you, right? The Fit
goes both ways. So you'reincreasing your chances of
acceptance by applying toschools where you know there's
going to be a great sense ofbelonging that they offer the
things that you specifically arelooking for, because they offer
those things to attract studentsthat are looking for those
(14:20):
things, right? So have the hardconversations up front. Take
schools off the list, likeJoanna is saying, cut through
the noise and focus on whatmatters most to you. And the
campus compass checklist issomething that you're going to
get for free as part of thefollow up of this. So you'll
have a worksheet that you canwork through with your student,
or you can do it separately fromyour student and then compare
(14:43):
notes, but it's a great way tostart those conversations about
what really matters to you inyour college search.
Joanna Graham (14:50):
So we'll talk about the thorough research
here. So there are a couple ofthings to think about. So first
off, the quantitative data isprobably the easiest part. So
these are the things likeaverage SAT or att. Scores,
average GPA, you know, even eventhings like average retention
rate, sort of students comingback sophomore year. So these
are all of the basic statisticsto give you a better sense of
what a student profile lookslike in a very quantifiable and
(15:11):
measurable way. One of the otherthings I encourage families to
think about with regards toquantitative data. In addition
to those, admission statisticsare starting to dig into career
services and what they have tooffer as well, too. I always
tell families, I think this isone of the most overlooked
places. People don't knock onCareer Services doors until fall
of senior year often, and thisis what you should be doing,
summer of junior year in highschool, fall of senior year in
(15:34):
high school, not senior year ofcollege. These folks are going
to be your very best friends,but they're also going to give
you a really good indication ofthe type of support that you can
expect, and also the types ofjobs, the types of salaries that
you might expect once you aregraduating. And so if
ultimately, the end goal here isto land a role that you love, at
a company that you love, in anindustry that you love, ask some
(15:54):
of the tough questions, youknow, ask them what companies
are coming to campus to recruit.
Can students attend events atother local universities? Does
the school help facilitate that?
Do they put out a report everyyear that shows where graduating
seniors are landing, what typesof roles are landing? What are
the titles? How within 90 days,within six months of graduation,
what percentage of seniors havelanded full time jobs? It's
(16:14):
going to be really interesting,very telling for you to start
digging into that data, not justat a university level, but also
at a school specific level. So Ialways encourage families to if
you're applying to a veryspecific school, an engineering
school, a business school, makesure that you're asking for that
data at an industry specific orat a school specific level. And
know too that many schools willhave separate Career Centers for
(16:35):
individual schools as well, inaddition to a more broad, sort
of general one for allundergraduates. When you think
about the qualitative insights,these are the things when you
start thinking about fits and sowhen we talk about culture,
belonging, community, you know,when students talk about setting
foot on a campus and sort ofjust getting that feeling that
they just know that this is theplace for them. Those are the
qualitative insights. This isthe magic. And this can be a
(16:57):
wide variety of things. You cancertainly suss out a lot of
this, I think, by starting withcollege websites. But the
reality is, is that after awhile, college websites all kind
of start to sound the same.
They're using probably a lot ofthe same buzzwords, and
truthfully, they're all going tosay that they are fantastic at
accounting and statistics andhistory. And frankly, there
isn't necessarily some magicglitter or pixie dust that
Harvard is sprinkling on theirbrand of accounting that a
(17:19):
community college in Las Vegasis necessarily doesn't have
access to, because accounting isaccounting. But when you start
to think about thoseintangibles, these are the
qualitative pieces that youthink about, who are the
students you're surroundingyourself with? Who are the
professors who are teachingthese courses? What types of
things are they researching? Dothey take on students as interns
to help with that research? Dothey get actively involved with
(17:40):
supporting students in the jobhunting or internship process?
These are some of theintangibles that really help
students start to realize, isthis the place that feels like
like I could be successfuldigging into student
organizations. So I alwaysencourage students, you know,
take a look. Definitely feelfree to leverage social media in
this way without going down toodeep and dark of a black hole.
But it's always really nice tosort of see some of that student
(18:02):
generated content. To see if aschool is touting that they have
over 200 undergraduate clubs.
That is fantastic. But thereality is that, you know,
probably a handful of them areare super active on campus. So
take a look at the clubs you'reinterested in, see if they have
a website, see if they have apresence on social media, and
then see what they're actuallydoing and what students are
talking about. It's a great wayto start getting a sense of
(18:24):
culture and also getting aglimpse at the types of students
you're going to be surroundingyourself with. And do these feel
like people you would want to befriends with or roommates with?
Even these are all the thingsthat I also encourage students
as you're building out thesematrices and you're starting to
rank schools, to come up withsome type of rating, and it can
be whatever you want it to be,but you know, on a scale of one
(18:45):
to 10, how do I feel about if Isaw one of the business
fraternities, how do I feelabout the folks who I saw? Do
these feel like people who Iwould be friends with, and start
again. The idea is to try tocreate some sort of ranking
system, or rating system here,where you it feels like you're
comparing apples to apples.
Because the other piece thatyou'll find is that the more you
learn about schools, the moreschools you add to your list.
They do start to run together atsome point. And so it is
(19:07):
important to try to come up withsome type of system that'll be
that'll be helpful to keep themost right, and then last but
not least, and this is probablythe most important part here, is
the connection and engagementpiece. And so obviously you want
to be engaging with admissionsfolks on campuses. Attend online
events when available, attendpanel discussions, anything that
you can. Some schools will trackthings like demonstrated
(19:27):
interest. Many do not. But it iscertainly never going to hurt
you to attend an event that aschool is hosting where you have
an opportunity to learn a littlebit more about what the school
offers. Because you often havedifferent folks who are
delivering these sessions, youmay learn something a little bit
different about the university.
And so there's certainly, Idon't think there's any harm and
redundancy there. But the otherthing to think about is, you
(19:50):
know, this is when you starttapping into your current
network. So do you have afriend, a. Neighbor, a second
cousin's sister twice removed,something, something who may
have gone to a school thatyou're interested in, or is
studying something maybe thatyou are interested in. This is
where you want to be reallyaggressive about trying to reach
out and schedule virtual or inperson coffee chats, or, I guess
maybe, if you're a high schoolstudent, a smoothie chat or a
(20:12):
frappuccino chat, something likethat, but spending time and
actually getting to know folks,asking questions about what
their experiences were like, andreally trying to build some of
those connections, all right? Solet's talk a little bit about
some of the pitfalls. So we'vepainted this lovely picture for
you about how wonderful theprocess is and all the wonderful
things you're going to learn.
There are some pitfalls in thisjourney, or some distractors
(20:32):
that we always want to call outto you know, I think it can be
very, very easy to getdistracted by the rankings and
by brand. There are so manystudents who will come in with a
list and they'll just say, youknow, it's Ivy League robust.
And they don't necessarily knowwhich schools are are going to
specialize in certain things.
They don't even know necessarilywhat they want to study. They
know that they just want tostudy at one of these schools
(20:54):
because this is a brand thatthey've heard of. Again, we go
back to what we were talkingabout at the beginning. The
right list is going to unlockyour competitive advantage. And
if, if you're not able to talkabout why you are a good fit for
a school, it is going to bevery, very obvious in the
essays, and it is going to bevery obvious to folks reading
those applications, I can tellyou right now. I mean having
read applications for a coupleof years that it really stands
(21:16):
out when you can tell when astudent has written one essay
and is just cut and pasted intoevery single application, if
there's no customization, ifthere's no sense that they
understand what the schoolstands for, what their mission
statement is, what they value,that is going to be very
obvious. And and you can havethe best grades and the best
test scores in the world, butschools want students who
genuinely want to be there andunderstand what they're going to
(21:38):
get out of that experience. Andso I really encourage folks to
make sure that you're thinkingabout what your personal ranking
is going to be at schools,because frankly, you know US
News World Report, or any of theother rankings out there, you
know they're going to be theones that you're talking to
about how much you love ordislike a program. So make sure
that you're really starting tothink about what are the things
that are important to you, andbuilding that own person, that
(22:01):
personal ranking system. I thinkone of the other things here is
really not being clear in yourmind about what those non
negotiables are versus thethings that you need and the
things that you want. And soreally spending some time
thinking about what is going tobe truly important and truly
crucial to giving you asuccessful four year experience.
And the reality is, is thatcollege sometimes is one of the
first times when students arefaced with some really hard and
(22:23):
fast metrics and numbers, and ifthere isn't alignment on some of
these things, they can end upbeing distractors. And so we
talk a lot about fit. We talk alot about encouraging students
to pursue their dreams, but italso is really important to make
sure that your school list isvery realistic. You want to make
sure that you have a mix ofschools that you know that
certainly are a bit aggressive,like let's go after those dream
(22:43):
schools, but not at the expenseof the schools on your list,
that that really are also justas good, if not better, about
fits, culturally, academically,but where we feel that you're
going to be incrediblycompetitive, and so it's
important to create thatbalance. As you're going through
this process, there are studentswho come, like I said, will be
sometimes with an Ivy League.
Listen, the reality is that theIvy League schools are so
competitive that they're goingto be reaches for anyone. But
(23:05):
you want to make sure thatyou're creating some balance.
And still again, going after,you know, going after
aggressively, some of thosedream schools, or some of those
reach schools, but also beingreally realistic, to make sure
that you are giving yourself asmany options as possible come
springtime of your senior year,as I mentioned at the beginning.
You know, rushing this processis really going to sort of
dictate, I think, the how therest of the admissions journey
(23:27):
goes for you. So making surethat you invest the time and
energy. And honestly, I thinkthe massaging part of this
process, the research and thevalidation parts, it's a cycle
that goes on and on. I mean,there are students who will add
schools at the last minutebecause they learn something at
an info session or a school cameto their to their high school to
speak. There's nothing wrongwith adding schools. It's not
like there's a deadline for whenyou have to stop adding schools,
(23:49):
but it is important that you dostart the process early and that
you have a very clear sense ofwhat you're looking what you're
looking for, and that, moreimportantly, that you're not
rushing this to too late intoyour into your high school
career. And then lastly, just aquick note here on parental
expectations, I think thateveryone probably has a the
story, or has some has somememory of what the college
application process was like forthat. And it could maybe be very
(24:11):
positive. Maybe it's one thatyou make you cringe a little
bit. But I always encourageparents, before you start down
this journey with your child,just to take a moment and think
about what your applicationjourney was like, and if there
are things that maybe give you alittle twitch in your neck, I
always encourage parents toreally think about what is the
type of support that you felt,that you needed when you were
applying to college. Did you getit and then you obviously know
(24:34):
your child better than anyoneelse. What is the type of
support that your child is goingto need through this process and
making sure that you're notconflating those two, I think
the other piece too is thatreminding parents that you have
to keep in mind whose name is onthat application, and so college
is not necessarily a secondopportunity to go chasing after
some. Dreams, or some differentpathways maybe that were left,
that were left unturned before.
(24:57):
And so really making sure thatyou keep in mind that your child
is at the center of thisprocess, and that you are
honoring their preferences andtheir journey, I think just a
couple of additional notes hereon sort of the reflection and
engagement part. So as Imentioned, sort of the personal
experiences are going to behuge. The supportive guidance,
obviously is going to be doingbe crucial. You know, again, I
think parents, we we playeddifferent roles in this process
(25:19):
with our kids. Certainly adviceand encouragement is going to be
because, I think it's going toprobably be best received and
most welcome. Certainly, thereare going to be times when you
may have to project managethings and apply a little bit of
pressure as well too, especiallywhen it comes to making some
decisions, it's really importantto just try to figure out what's
what that equilibrium sort ofpoint is between those two, then
(25:39):
making sure that this does feellike a collaborative process.
They can't tell you how manytimes there are families where I
almost feel like I'm mediating abit, because there is a
disconnect in terms of ofexpectations, in terms of the
roles, and so it's reallyimportant to have these
conversations early and often,especially before the pressure
starts to starts to turn up asyou get further into junior
year, into senior year, and thenlastly, you know, again, I think
(26:01):
the last part here wascommunication is just this is
going to be something thatobviously comes out of
supportive guidance and all theconversations that you have that
are open, honest andtransparent. It's really going
to be important to make surethat you're listening to your
child and what their hopes,their dreams and their concerns
throughout this entire processare as well. I think the college
admissions process looks verydifferent now than it did when
(26:22):
when most of us were applying tocollege, but it's important to
make sure that we're that we'rerecognizing that, that we're
listening and that we'rehonoring that throughout the
process as well.
Sheila Akbar (26:32):
Really well, said, Joanna. I want to chime in here,
because we are seeing this nowwith the parents of our seniors,
right? Who, you know, maybeapplied. Did some early
applications just last month,and are getting ready to submit
some more. One thing I like toremind parents is that this
process is part of the processof letting your child fly from
(26:53):
the nest, right? And this is agreat place to practice giving
them ownership of their life, oftheir dreams, of, you know,
their process, right? And thatdoesn't mean completely step
back, but it does mean thinkabout where you can give them a
little bit more autonomy andjust be a supporter from the
sidelines and other places whereyou may need to step in and
(27:16):
project manage, but it's a greatplace to practice shifting your
relationship with your child asthey start to become a young
adult. You know, if they'reabout to embark on this process,
they're going to leave homewithin the next two years or so,
and you want them to be readyfor that. And this is a great
place to start trying that outand shifting the relationship.
Joanna Graham (27:39):
Great points.
Thank you, Sheila, so a coupleof additional notes, as you're
building your list and as you'regoing through this process. So
this idea of building out atimeline, so I think you've
heard this a couple times nowfrom me, but making sure that
you are dedicating sufficienttime for research when you go
through this process and it isrushed or you feel pressured to
be really candid, a lot of folksmake bad decisions, so taking
the time again to make sure thatyou're carving out time. The
(28:00):
other thing I would say too is,you know, if you have multiple
children, a lot of families, Ithink, sometimes fall into this
trap of assuming that if they'vegone through this process with
one child, it'll be the same orvery similar with the second
child or third child. And, youknow, and the reality is, is
that for some families there,I've worked with families where
they have four children, andthree of the four children all
want to study the same thing,and all want to go to the same
(28:23):
school and have very similargrade and test scores. It very,
very rarely works out like that.
What I would encourage you tothink about is, you know, for
every child, think aboutbuilding a framework that's
going to work for every child inyour family. And if you do have
younger children, certainly feelfree to involve them in certain
pieces of this. I think it'scertainly good to expose them to
here's what it's going to looklike. But don't feel like they
(28:46):
have to be an activeparticipant. Every child is
going to go through this processin their own way. And so making
sure that you're creating spacefor each child to have that
their own experience is going tobe incredibly important as well.
Now one of the things that youcan carry over is the
documentation piece. So if youbuild a matrix with fields that
you love and something thatworks really well for you. Or if
you build a Gantt chart formanaging applications and all of
(29:08):
those deadlines you absolutelylove, save that template. Share
it with your friends and familyif you'd like. Save it for your
next child. Again you want thatare certainly going to work well
for you. But the bestdocumentation system, the best
templates, are going to be onesthat that you understand and
that you that you use, and we dohave some wonderful if you're
wondering, How in the world do Ieven go about building a
template? Sheila will talk toyou in a little bit about some
(29:30):
of the wonderful gifts that wehave for you all, where we do
make this process a little biteasier for you. But above all, I
would encourage you to make surethat everything is centralized,
though, so have it livesomewhere where everyone has
access to it, where everyone canweigh in and provide comments.
Google Drive is a fantasticresource for this, and that way,
everyone can go in and add theirown comments as you go, and then
just the last week, reiterateagain, the importance of
(29:53):
evaluating and regularly goingback and refining that list.
Again. There's no award for thefamily who has 75 schools on
their list, and frankly, if youwere to show up to a meeting
with Sheila or me. 75 schools wemight fall out of our chair
heavily encourage you to starttrimming that back. The best
list is going to be a list thatincludes those mix of schools
where your student is going tobe competitive, but more
importantly, where your studentfeels they could be successful
(30:15):
regardless of the selectivityfactor of that school.
Sheila Akbar (30:18):
Great. So Joanna, thank you very much. I'll let
you rest your voice for aminute, and I'll take over the
mic for a little bit. I want togo through the most frequently
asked questions. Joanna, youalluded to this, but we don't
want 75 colleges on your list.
In fact, most applicationplatforms limit your number of
applications to 20. Even thatseems high to me. Now,
certainly, this is more than youor I would have applied to when
(30:41):
we were going through it. Butthe world has changed. College
applications are now digital,and people submit more
applications per student, so ourrecommendation is between 10 and
15 schools on your final finallist. Now you might start with
30 or 40 on your initialresearch list, but as you do
that research, you're going towhittle that down and focus in
on the schools that really domeet the needs and preferences
(31:04):
that you've mapped out foryourself. And there are some
students where it makes sense toapply to a little bit more, some
where it makes sense to apply tofewer, but a good guideline is
between 10 and 15, and then thatlist of schools should include a
mix of what we call likely,target and reach schools. And
some people, instead of usingthe word likely, they'll call it
(31:27):
a safety but these schoolsshould all meet the needs and
preferences that your studentsset out. But the difference
between them should really betheir selectivity, right? And I
like to see at least two truelikelies. Now these are ones
where there is just no questionyour student is getting in
right, and you may getinformation from a friend in
(31:48):
your network or even from yourschool's own internal database
on Naviance or score or Maya orwhatever platform they use. That
shows you some really, reallyselective school is basically a
safety for the student, and Ireally hate that that happens.
It really misaligned certainexpectations. Generally, for me,
(32:10):
a school that has a lower than75% acceptance rate is not a
safety is not a likely school,right? We really want just
guarantee we have options right,and you should still be happy to
go to this school, right? Itmaybe is not your dream school,
but you should be able to studywhat you want to study. You
(32:31):
should be able to learn from whoyou want to learn from, and be
around the kind of peers thatyou really want to be around in
a culture that you really value.
So at least two true likelyschools, and then I usually say
six or seven of these should betarget schools where your
students selective stats, theirSAT score, their GPA, their
(32:52):
general academic profile isright in line with the average,
or the middle 50% of what thatschool accepts and that data is
publicly available. Any of thosesearch engines that we mentioned
earlier, pretty much any searchengine, college search engine
that you would Google, they allpull from the same set of data.
They're just showing you thatdata in different ways. Right?
(33:14):
So it doesn't really matterwhich one you go to, but a
target school is really whereyour student is, right in line
with what typically getsaccepted at that school. And
then the reach schools would bemaybe three or four of them
where your student is not quiteup to the average, but hopefully
not not too far away from it.
And you know, there are going tobe some schools that are, you
(33:37):
know, the super reaches, the farreaches, like the Ivy League
schools that have single digitacceptance rates. The vast
majority of students do not getin. And that doesn't mean you
shouldn't apply to them if itfeels like a really good fit,
but you should just manage yourexpectations. And you want to
think about this like aportfolio. You wouldn't put all
of your investments into thehighest risk stocks. You really
want to distribute yourinvestments. So that's that's
(34:00):
what we want to do with ourschool list. And then finally,
the best resources. They come inall shapes and sizes and
formats, but the best resourceis the one that you or your
student is actually going touse. Joanna, you mentioned this.
There are going to be thingsthat just feel easier for you. I
have some students who preferusing the FISC guide to college
is a print book, and justflipping through the pages, I
(34:22):
have another person who likesusing a website called College
results.org which has a mapfeature where you can kind of
zoom in on a certain area of thecountry and set some parameters
and see what what comes upthere. And then, you know, big
future is the College Boardsearch tool niche.com is also a
really great one. And you know,some of them integrate reviews
or different kind of searchparameters that you can use, but
(34:44):
there's no one that is betterthan the other. You should just
use the one that you're you feelcomfortable using. All right, we
did have a lot of greatquestions from the audience
that, of course, I stripped offof this recording for. You, but
I wanted to plug again that weare pivoting to a live coaching
model, and a lot of people arelike, what's live coaching? I
(35:06):
don't know if I have an hour ofcontent, or even a half an hour
of content, I just have, like,this one question. The one
question is perfectly fine. I'lltell you in this session that we
did, we had about three or fourquestions, and they took up
about 20 minutes, you know, andwe could have gone into a lot
more detail and a lot moreindividualized kind of responses
to those questions. So even ifyou just have, like, one
(35:29):
question that you think ispretty simple, don't be shy and
submit it on the form that'll belinked in the show notes, so
that you can join me on thepodcast, or, you know, one of my
other experts, if I'm not theright person to answer your
question, to really go throughhow we think about it, how we
would encourage you to navigatethe situation, because so many
people are probably wonderingthe exact same thing, and
(35:51):
they're going to benefit so muchfrom you coming forward and
saying, I have this question.
Can somebody explain this to me?
So please take advantage of thatif it's relevant for you. All
right, thank you, as always, forjoining us. We'll see you next
time bye.
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