Code Chrysalis Coding Bootcamp Review (Tokyo, Japan)

Episode Transcript
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Don Hansen (00:00):
Welcome back to another podcast episode where
we help aspiring developers getjobs and junior developers grow.
In this episode, we are goingto be reviewing code Chrysalis,
a coding bootcamp in Japan.
Um, we're gonna dig more into it,but like usual, it's nothing but
honest and transparent reviews.
I'm not here to sell the programs.
I'm just here to get downinto the Rio reviews.

(00:23):
So we'll go ahead and start withour intros, like normal Yukimi
would you like to, you know what,a couple questions mm-hmm yes.
Are you currently asoftware engineer or are you

Michael Metcalf (00:35):
still applying?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

Yukimi Otagiri (00:36):
I, I, um, I, since last December, December

Don Hansen (00:41):
1st.
Okay, cool.
Yeah.
Well, congrats.
That's cool.
Thank you.
Um, what, uh, where do you come from?
What was your old industry?
Oh,

okay.
I'm uh, I'm Japanese.
And, uh, when I was a student,I studied fine art in New York.
So that is why I speak little bit English.
And, uh, but after I came back, I, Idid do my masters in, um, at art, but,
uh, you know, it's hard to make money.

(01:15):
Okay.
Fair enough.
After I came back to Japan, I was, uh,working several comp companies and doing
just administrators and, uh, I didn'tdirect my job for a long time, but,
uh, I didn't think seriously changing,uh, get news care and, uh, become, uh,

(01:38):
changing my job until pandemic happens.
Mm-hmm pandemic make, mademe seriously, my future.
My career.
So that is how I, Istarted running coding.
Okay.
But yeah, first time I studied bymyself, but I didn't understand.

(02:01):
It's a door so I started tofor school and I found code.
Okay.

Don Hansen (02:09):
That's awesome.
Well, you got your new position.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
All right.
How about you, Michael?
Right as you're taking

a sip.
Oh yeah, thanks.
It's a morning after.
Oh yeah, join me.
Um, let's see.
Oh, what was the question?
Just a quick introduction.
Well, yeah, let's actually go.
Um, when did you graduate?
Um, are you still in the job marketand then where'd you come from?
Okay.
Yeah, so I graduated in the middle of lastJune and I'm no longer in the job market.

(02:40):
I actually have a, a differentjob now is like doing more it
stuff like, uh, it support.
Um, so I wouldn't considermyself like any longer in the.
I guess web dev softwareengineering job market.
Um, I pretty much, uh, left thejob hunt, I guess you could say.

(03:01):
Um, and before that I wasdoing English teaching.
I was what's called an alt likeassistant language teacher, uh, in
Japanese public schools in a kindof rural area, about four hours away
from where I live now in Yokohama.
I live in Yokohama now, but I wasliving in a, a GE food before.

(03:24):
Um, and I think, you know, if, if peoplewho are watching this who are living in
Japan and making a living in Japan, um,they're probably doing it through English
and they're probably like experiencingthis feeling of deadness and they're
kind of looking for like, all right, uh,how am I going to move out of English
either in Japan or when I leave Japan.

(03:45):
And that's kind of where I was at.
Um, I'm.
I'm still on the fence, but I'mpretty sure like Japan, isn't
going to be my forever home.
That might change because currentlyI'm not really sure where else
to go, but my idea was, um, okay.
I should have some kind of a skillthat I can use anywhere in the
world, wherever I decide to go.

(04:07):
And I'd heard about coding and I guessthe, the concept that you could make money
off of websites and the internet, uh, likeweb development and this kind of thing.
I think that whole idea kind of,mm, I learned about that about maybe
seven, eight years ago, and youknow, learned about free code camp.
So this has always been kicking around inthe back of my mind for all these years.

(04:32):
Um, and so, yeah, I was doing Englishbefore, uh, I started code Chrysalis.
And during that time, my goal wasjust to pay off my student loans,
just keep my head down and pay offmy loans so I could get debt free.
And then I saved up, uh, to make thatnext step through a code Chrysalis.

(04:52):
So that's kind of whereI was coming at it from.
Okay.
But yeah, uh, I guess I'd say it didn'treally work out for me, um, which is
something I'd really like to talk aboutbecause you know, you mentioned reviews
and in my cohort, I think there was the17 students and most, all of us probably.

(05:14):
Hm.
Maybe 14 of us have jobs right now.
uh, after we all finished last June.
Um, but my understanding is, is that codeChrysalis doesn't invite you to give a
review until after you've secured a job.
Mm-hmm um, so for example, like thoseof us who never got a job, like we
never got, um, like an invite or like,Hey, could you leave a review now?

(05:37):
I think they, when, when they askyou to leave a review, it's kinda
like after everything is done,you got a job and good to go.
But, um, if you don't have a job, I,from my understanding what I've seen,
they don't invite, I guess, quoteunquote, I won't say that, but, uh,
they don't invite people who haveleft the job hunt and who have pretty

(05:58):
much moved on from code Chrysalis toleave a review is my understanding.

Don (06:02):
That's a really good point.
I, um, I've talked about thismany times, there are many
kind of sneaky ways programs.
It's like it's, it's okayto get a negative review.
It's it's like every company is so scaredof that transparency and that's, that's
an interesting, that's an interesting way.
I don't actually think I've heard of, uh,programs, delaying reviews like that, but

(06:24):
there are many other ways that programs

do that.
Um,

Don Hansen (06:28):
okay, cool.
We'll dig into that a bit.
Um, how about you Francis?

Francis Gaudreau (06:34):
Well, first thank you for having me.
Uh, my name is Francis I'm fromCanada, but I've been living
in Japan for quite some time.
Uh, and it's funny that, uh, I've,I'm a similar background and Michael,
I was also an English teacher inJapan and, uh, but the difference
is Japan will be my forever home.
So that's why I kind of like,again, the dead end job.

(06:55):
So you wanted to find something that has abetter, better prospect, but actually me.
programming was just a hobby beforeI was doing it, because I wanted to
learn how to make automated tests.
So I learned Python for fun.
I mean, I like tests.
English test.
Like I could make questionsand the students can cheat on

(07:17):
each other, things like this.
Anyway.
So I, I started doing things withthis, but I never thought I could have
a career, cuz I thought I could, youhave to do like a CS degree to go into
the market cuz the people that I knew.
And so that's why, and then I did somelike volunteering like last year and I.

(07:40):
Kind of discovered throughthis, that booth camp war thing.
And I that's how I joined code Chrysalis.
I think I jumped the gun, but I'm,uh, I, I worked as a teacher in Japan,
but back home I worked in a bank cuz Istudied business administration anyway,
I'm going back and forth, but yeah.
So, uh, yeah, yeah.

(08:00):
Something like this.
Yeah.

D (08:01):
What are you doing right now?

I'm a, a front end developer

Don Hansen (08:05):
front end developer.
Okay.
I have a question for all of you.
So I think so.
Okay.
Here's an assumption,correct me if I'm wrong.
Do a lot of American, uh,people move to Chiana become an
English sort of teacher to yeah.
Yeah.

Francis Ga (08:22):
That's the question.
I'm not a American, butuh, yeah, it's easier.
Yeah.
Like easier this or like the military.
I feel those are the two like bigAmericans that I meet in Japan.
Okay.

Um, yeah.
I I'd say so too.
It's, it's easier to, I guess, quoteunquote, get your foot in the door.
Like it's easy to find a companythat's willing to sponsor your visa.
And I think that's kind of the key thing.
You need to have someone to sponsoryour visa to get into the country.
And then once you have an Englishteaching job, it's relatively it.

(08:57):
It's not, um, a huge ordeal to jumpcompanies or to locate to a new city
and, uh, find a different companyto continue renewing your visa.
Okay.
So I think that's kind of the

Don Hansen (09:08):
game.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Do you feel like Japan valuestraditional education, like a
college degree over something like acoding bootcamp or is it vice versa?

Anyone can talk by the way.
Oh yeah.
Sorry.
I don't wanna, you're fine.

Don Hansen (09:30):
But yeah, you might as well go, Michael,

start off.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Um, I, I guess, you know, Uh, codingand I guess web development is a
relatively like young industry.
So I think, um, I, I don't thinklike maybe traditional ideas of
like, you know, getting a universityeducation for web development.
I don't think that's like quite takenroot yet, or maybe if it even ever will.

(09:55):
Um, I guess it all comes down to likehow the companies treat, uh, graduates.
You know, if a tech company reallycares that you have a kind of university
degree, then that might factor into it.
Um, from, from things I've seen andheard on YouTube and stuff, I don't
really have any evidence other thanthat, to believe this, but Japan seems

(10:19):
to value computer science degrees.
Like, so if, if you have a CS degree, ifyou have a candidate with a CS degree and
one who doesn't like, they'll probablytend to favor the one with a CS degree.
But again, I think it just dependson the company, which is probably
a similar situation anywhere in theworld, at least in this industry.
I believe I'm not sure though.

Don Hansen (10:40):
Yeah.
And it really comes down to, well,obviously, like who can do the job,
who's a cultural fit, but also,yeah, it's usually going to only
help you, but is it worth the money?
That's usually like the main question inthe software engineering ex uh, industry.
Um, actually, uh, quickquestion you came me.
Uh, did you find a software engineeringjob after the coding bootcamp?

(11:02):
Yes.

Yes, yes, yes.
Yes.
Very good.
So I graduated October 22nd and, uh, Iimmediately start look for job and, uh,
I got, uh, four over five interview.
Then I started work as a frontend web developer December 1st.

(11:26):
I think it was very first andI think I got a lot of job
interview.

Don Hansen (11:31):
You didn't update your LinkedIn?

Yukimi (11:34):
Um, not yet because I'm still how to say like, uh, three months.
Um, I forgot the English

Francis Gaud (11:42):
word trial period.

Yeah.
Something like, like, yeah.
It's not like very engaged yet.

Don Hansen (11:55):
That makes sense.
Okay.
I'll probably poke and prodwith questions like that.
Cause I'm interested in hearing justlike web development, like different
cultures, so mm-hmm okay, cool.
Um, so I guess you, I guess Ikind of wanna start with this.
I'm gonna change it up a little bit.
Um, what is your favorite thing about

the program?

Francis Gaud (12:17):
Um, I'll chime in.
I mean, my favorite thing was the, I meanthe tech stack that they're teaching and
I mean, two, I guess, and the other onethat really got me to choose it was the,
I mean the, the teaching method, cuzthey, what they do is that a lot of the

(12:40):
lessons and things, they're more aboutyou figure it out yourself type of thing.
They give you tools and then you tryto struggle on your own, which is,
I feel very reflective of the reallike development job is some you're
home and you're scratching your headand you doubt yourself, but that's, I
think that's what they were teaching.

(13:01):
So that's why I thought, ah, if that'sactually the case, I think you'll be good.
Cause, uh, yeah, so that'sthe positive for me.
So would,

Don (13:08):
um, would that mean people.
. So what happens when you get stuckfor like a half an hour or an hour
and you just cannot get past it?
Do you have that help?

Yeah.
There's instructors thatyou can always ask for help.
Uh, that's something we can comeback later instructors, but yeah.
Uh, okay.

Don Hansen (13:26):
Sounds good.
What about you too?
Favorite thing?

yeah, no, you

D (13:33):
don't just talk you ki, okay.

Okay.
okay.
I think, uh, the best things is they, alot bootcamp teaches Ruby, but, uh, code
teaches Java script, which is really good.
I think many bootcamp teachesRuby because, uh, of the.
Uh, Ruby rare is, uh, very easy andfirst to make a web up, but, uh, I try

(14:02):
to study Ruby and rare is very bit, but Ithink very, it is very easy and first to
make web up, but they make a roto fire.
So it was very difficult to fix programbecause they make the fires a roto fire,

Don Han (14:27):
lot of files to manage.

Yukimi (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, but I think, yeah, and I think,and little bit old, so yeah, I, I think
it better to study JavaScript becauseJavaScript they use like react view.

(14:50):
Those are more, more than.
.

Don Hansen (14:55):
Yeah.
I noticed that with internationaleducation, I saw a lot of Ruby rails.
Mm-hmm um, it feelslike, uh, what was it?
Uh, lagoon had, I think Ruby railscurriculum, and it felt very much
focused on like, like you said, youcan get an app up and running easily.
It's easy to learn.
You can get it up easily and it felt it.

(15:16):
I think that's good for entrepreneurs.
I wanna launch an app.
I feel like it is especially, andthen you find coding bootcamp.
So focus on like product management,little bit of design UX, and you're
like, they're kind of training peopleto build their own apps, which is, which
is pretty cool with the Ruby on rails.
Right.
But when you do get into JavaScript,would you say JavaScript is very, um, well

(15:37):
desired in the market in web development?

Completely.

Don Hansen (15:43):
go ahead.

Perfect.
I mean, that's awesome.
Um,

Don Hansen (15:47):
okay.
Interesting.
I agree with everythingyou said about Ruby.
Em, reel.
Michael, how about you?
What's your favorite thing?

Um, it probably has more to do with like the
non-technical aspects of the bootcamp.
Um, I, I personally have some,I don't know what to call
them misgivings or maybe Hmm.
Thoughts about like, how thingswere taught in the curriculum.
Um, we'll go over that.

(16:14):
Don't worry.
Yeah.
But I guess, yeah, it has alot to do with the people.
Like, I think the, a lot of the peopleworking at code Chrysalis are really, um,
you know, they're really kind, I thinkthey really believe in their mission,
um, and their mission, what, somethingthat I would, uh, I think their mission
is to through, you know, positivityand, uh, encouragement and as much

(16:37):
support as they can give is to, um, helppeople make a change in their careers,
in their lives for the positive, um,Yeah, I guess that'd probably be my
one liner off the top of my head.
Um, yeah, like there was onething about the program that I
was kind of surprised about that.

(16:59):
I, I'm not sure if it's quite advertisedon the site, but when you get in the
program, you know, they're telling youabout, you know, uh, you know, these are
the kind of things we do, and these arethe things that are available to you.
Um, I don't know if she's still there,but they have someone who's pretty much,
she's like a life coach and her, andI think she also functions as kind of

(17:22):
like the HR person, maybe, uh, I can'tremember exactly like what her technical
role title might be, but the point ofthis person is that for people who are
struggling like mentally or emotionally,or there is like kind of maybe some kind
of human conflict that comes up in theprogram, she's there to kind of act as

(17:42):
like a mediator in those kinds of things.
And.
You can also arrange to have likea private meeting with her, like 30
minutes, um, once a week to just kindof like vent out, you know, what's going
on in your head and to talk about it.
And, um, yeah, like she's, she's not likea counselor or therapist or anything,

(18:03):
but she's just kind of there to likesomeone who has nothing to do with the
curriculum, nothing due to the program.
Just kinda like this objective outsidethird person who will, uh, listen to
you and listen to your concerns andthings that are going on in your head.
Um, and you know, to just, uh,help support you and, um, I guess

(18:24):
inject, uh, positivity and, um, yeah.
Positivity support help you along.
Listen to you, uh, togive you suggestions.
And, you know, I.
Yeah.
Like if there's something you wannabring up to, maybe anyone else like
the administrator, the administration,or another student or something like

(18:46):
she's kind of there to facilitatethat and be that kind of buffer.
So, um, for me of all the thingsthat code Chrysalis lets you do an
experience, which are also really great.
Um, I think for me personally,that was probably the best thing
outta that program, I think.

Don Hansen (19:03):
Okay.
It feels like, and you know, sometimes,um, I can only pick three people
to come on, but you know, I, I getmessages and feedback from everyone
else and um, it feels like, like thesupport, the positivity, the culture
seemed to generally be positive.
It seemed to generally be open supportingthat's the, that's the feeling I got.

(19:25):
But also I wanna dive into, um, Michael,you kind of like hinted more at like the
curriculum and how things are, are taught.
You wanna expand on that?
You seem a little concern.

Yeah.
Um, so of course, you know, this is justmy, my personal mindset and my viewpoint.
So, um, I don't want, you know,anyone watching this, I don't want
that to project onto, for example,Emmi or Francis, like, just because
I'm saying this doesn't mean thisis what they think or anyone else.
Um, but my feeling was, well, I, I guessthis kind of ties into like a, how do

(20:03):
you learn kind of a question like youas an individual, like what learning
style or teaching style is best for you?
Um, and I guess it kind of.
It's the, I think that'skind of a deep question.
It probably goes back to like howyou went through your educational
system, you know, even university.
And what kind of assumptions did youhave about those institutions and

(20:26):
about what was supposed to happen whenyou go through those institutions?
And then if you're approaching codeChrysalis from this mindset, you're
probably expecting, you probablyhave a similar mindset to, you know,
previous educational experiences.
So in my case with, uh, you know,code Chrysalis and WebDev, I've

(20:46):
been, you know, on YouTube forever,just like watching all these videos,
there's all these like YouTubechannels and podcasts and stuff about.
You know, web dev and what technologiesare good to learn, which ones.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, like I'm sure that, you know,if, if your podcast, this is still
relatively new podcast, isn't it?

(21:07):
Like, how long have you doing abouta year or something like that?
Like if this, if your podcast hadbeen around like two or three years
ago, I'm sure I would've stumbledupon it been listening into and
eating all this stuff up anyways.
Uh, I'm starting to like float around,but, um, so yeah, you, depending on
how you look at it, it's a positive,but to me, I kind of see it as a

(21:29):
negative is that it code Chrysalis.
You know, they, they do teachyou foundational things, but
I like, at least in my cohort.
And that's another thing in my cohort.
I feel like things in the program andcurriculum get tweaked and changed
and instructors even change, youknow, from a cohort to cohort basis.
Like my experience.

(21:50):
Isn't gonna be 100% in linewith probably EMIS or Francis's.
Um, they can probably chime in withlike maybe things that were done
differently in their cohort, but Ithink overall the curriculum involves,
you know, teaching fundamentals.
Well, I guess that's another thing too.
Even before you get to the bootcamp, youstill have to do a ton of pre-course work.

(22:13):
That's still pretty intensivebefore they even let even the doors.
So, um, there's a lot of this kindof foundation fundamentals building.
And then like, as you get furtherand further in the program, they
kind of like loosen things up.
They kind of loosen the seatbelt onyou and eventually they just kind of
unbuckle you and, uh, you can justdo anything you want, which is, you

(22:36):
know, kind of, um, a positive thing.
There's a lot of freedom inwhat they allow you to do.
But like in my case, I'd had it madeup in my mind that I was probably
gonna go back to the states where.
I had heard that, you know, the react techstack or a tech stack that utilizes react
was more, um, popular for whatever reason.

(22:58):
I just decided in my mind, allright, there's all these kinds of
web technologies floating around.
You could do this, you can do that.
I'm gonna focus on react.
Um, and so I guess, even though I didn'tconsciously think this, when I was
going into the program, I was wanting tofocus on react and they do go overreact,
but then they also go over view.

(23:20):
Um, so they kind of go back and forthwith a lot of different technologies,
you know, database, uh, databasetechnologies, API technologies, um,
front end technologies and frameworks.
They're, they're introducinglike so many different things
to do the same thing to you.
And maybe the idea is like,Hey, there's this one.

(23:40):
And there's also this one there's options.
But for me, , it was alittle too unfocused.
Now, as the program goes along, I'd saythe first half of the program is more
structured in terms of the lectures.
Like you usually have a lecture and youusually have a clear homework assignment,

(24:02):
but I'd say like the latter half of theprogram is a lot more free form in that
you're doing a lot more group work andthe projects get more and more free form.
Like your first group projecthas a lot of, I guess,
constraints or, um, parameters.
You know, this is what you're gonna do.
This is what you're working with.
And then through each differentgroup, there's more freedom given

(24:23):
to you all to decide within thegroup, what technologies to use.
And so, uh, again, like Francis wassaying, it's probably a little more
realistic, you know, where you're in agroup and everyone has some kind of input.
Um, but for me, I found myself kind of.
Tripping and falling along backin the first half of the program,

(24:45):
there were a lot of conceptsthat I just didn't understand and
things that didn't click with me.
Uh, meanwhile, I was wanting to focuson react, but actually in the groups
later on that I got involved withthe majority of people in the group
were more comfortable with view.
So I actually spent more timeworking with view, uh, than react,

(25:06):
which I was kind of hoping I would.
Um, so yeah, I guess what am I saying?
Yeah, I guess the hands offness iskind of a good thing, but I think
for me, in my case it was kind ofa negative thing because yeah, it
is kind of like a very much figureit out on your own kind of thing.

(25:30):
Uh, again, which I'm not criticizingthat in itself, but like if I'm
paying for a program, I was hopingfor like more directed, um, I guess.
Instruction.
And I think that's because I come from abackground or some kind of mindset about
schools and institutions where it's like,I just kind of accepted this idea that,

(25:51):
you know, you kind of go into the schoolbox and they tell you what to do and you
come out and you're magically this thing,uh, that you went into school to do.
But, uh, I think we can all say thatthat's not really how things work.
And that was probably a huge mindsetor perception, mistake, not even a
mistake, just, um, it wasn't veryhelpful for me going into the program.

(26:17):
I,

Don Hansen (26:18):
I think I get what you're saying.
Do you mind if I summit real quick?
Please please do.
Yeah.
So, you know, I, like I said, I revieweda lot of coding, boot camps, and
sometimes coding, boot camps can havea little bit more of an open style,
especially with that second half.
Now I can tell you right now, 12weeks to learn, react and view.
And it sounds like youwere learning API backend.

(26:40):
That's crunched.
Like that's a lot of learning.
I can see the, you shaking yourhead and I'm telling you, like, I.
I'm not the most intelligent person.
I'm an intelligent person, but like a lot.
I'm just honestly, an average personthat put a lot of work into coding.
That's how I became a developer.
Right.
It takes time for things to likereally sink in for most people.

(27:00):
And so to go through, um, to gothrough this program and learn
like react is tough alone, likeviews a simpler version, right.
In my opinion, react is it's, it's hard.
And like, there are so many people,so many aspiring developers that I
talk to that would kind of go througha lot of react content with coding,
boot camps, but a lot of coding, bootcamps kind of brush over it, or they

(27:22):
try to expand that knowledge too much.
They wanna teach angular.
They wanna teach you.
And they're trying to crunchit in this like 12 weeks.
It's like, then when I really test orreact knowledge, they don't know a lot.
They really don't.
They don't know what's happeningunder the hood when bugs happen.
Um, you know, even like this idea of likea sink or to state and stuff like that,
like sometimes changes would happen.
They didn't really understandeven asynchronous behavior.

(27:43):
They didn't really like understandJavaScript fundamentals.
Well, to understandthat's what state's doing.
It's not a synchronous thing.
And that alone can cause bugs and liketrip you up when you're learning react.
Um, so yeah, shoving view into thatand then saying like, you can either do
react or view, um, when it sounds likethat knowledge was spread thin already.

(28:10):
Um, I don't know.
It, it feels like maybe they wouldbenefit from tightening that up
a little bit and becoming more

focused.
Um, yeah, that's kinda like the paradoxof it all is you're paying like a lot
of money to do this 12 week program wheneven, you know, the instructors or at
least one of the instructors made thecomments like, yeah, we shouldn't, we,
we should be spending way more time onthis, but, but we gotta get through it.
We gotta move on to the next thing.

(28:38):
Um, you know, Uh, I believe anyonecan learn this stuff, you know, like
you said, you put in the time and thework and interestingly enough, you
know, the thing people probably needmost when learning this stuff is time.
Yet you are, you know, by the natureof a bootcamp, you're paying a lot
of money to not have a lot of time.

(28:58):
And that's not including all of theother things that code Chrysalis
has you doing outside of coding,um, as part of their program.
So I, I guess that's like onecritique I'd have, I hope I'm not
coming across as like, just crappingon the program or anything because,

Don H (29:15):
well, I think you've cued it more than most my guess cushioning

Michael Metca (29:17):
it, to be honest.
Oh, okay.
You're fine.
But, um, what, what doyou let you think of that?
Right.
You're fine.

Francis Gaudr (29:25):
Um, I mean, me, I guess I had a, a different view meets
really the, the culture of cold crystalsthat really struck me negatively.
Like for me, all that.
like emotional support.
Like I felt it's a very Americanculture, like booth camp in Japan.
And as a non-American I felt kind of odd,like, why is it like this type of thing?

(29:49):
So it, for me, all ofthis felt just weird.
Like people being like, I don't know,offended easily and like a teacher
making a joke then on me and then pullingme in a room and, and apologizing.
Like, I just didn't understandwhy I was so confused.
I'm like, nah, it's okay.
It's a joke.

(30:10):
I get it.
Like, it's fine.
Like it, it was just kind of a weirdexperiment for me to, to have this like
microcosm of American culture in Japan.
Um, but uh, for me program wise,I mean, I, I do agree that, but
in the end, even if we spend twoweeks on react, it's not enough.
So that's why I understand mightas well just be exposed to both.

(30:31):
And then on your own.
More look into it.
If you're interested, cuz inthe end, you'll learn more in
your first month of job than thethree months of the booth camp.
I think so that's what I felt.
So, um, yeah, the booth camp, it's away to like kind of solidify certain
skills and then you'll be able tolike do coding challenges let's say.

(30:54):
And, but the essential of your likebasic learning, I think you'll do
more on the job, but uh, yeah, thecurriculum for me, I thought it was fine.
It was a little all over the place.
Like there was even a week that they'relike pick a tech and do whatever.
So you can pick like a new languageand learn it and do an app with it.

(31:14):
And that was fun, butnot very useful, like.
Like what, like I'm taking, Idon't know, C plus plus for a week.
What can you do withC plus plus in a week?
Right.
So there's not like it's and it's like,really, you can do whatever you want.
So that was fun.
Like, but also just not so usefulin the grand scheme of things.

(31:38):
Uh, one of the big thing though, thatwasn't mentioned, and for me maybe was
a big plus was after the program, theyhave like a career support system.
Hold up that, well,

Don Hans (31:49):
we'll talk about that.
I, no, no, you're fine.
Um, cuz I wanna dig more into that,but that's good to, good to hear.

Okay.
Yeah.
We'll we can dig into it later.
Okay.
So for me, the program itself was fine.
Uh, my cohort, we were 17.
It was a mix of Japaneseand English, uh, students.
So, uh, that was fine for me,but maybe challenging for others
cuz not everyone spoke Englishor Japanese, but uh, in the end.

(32:19):
Yeah.
I didn't have the problem becauseme I'm a very bossy person.
So when I came in my team todo my final project, we used
a text tech that I wanted.
So I was lucky that theylet me do what I wanted.
But uh, yeah, I can see why, ifyou're in a team that everyone
wants to use something different,it's a little troublesome, but.
In the end, I don't know.

(32:40):
In general it was positive likecurriculum wise and what we made
and it's more the, the, I call itthe, the fluff, the fluff around it.
That was a little like hit andthis for me and most of my, uh,
non-American, uh, classmates.

Don Hansen (33:00):
Okay.
Interesting.
Um, what are your thoughts?
You came?

Yukimi O (33:03):
It was amazing for me.
So it's like 12 weeks,12, 12 weeks program.
And I think after five week or a sixweek, they have a midterm assessment.
So I struggled a lot.
I, I, I was the most struggledperson in the cohort and after five.

(33:29):
So after I took the midtermassessment and I failed.
And because I struggled a lot.
I studied a lot, but somany things I have to run.
So coder is moving me to next cohort.
So I studied it again.

(33:51):
Then I understand better.
And I took to the midtermassessment again, the next cohort.
And I passed and I, I could graduate.
I think it amazing.
And, uh, the school system is good.

(34:14):
Um, right now I'm, uh,not using react or view.
I use jungle framework and the Python, noJava script at all, but still I use every.
I for my work, I use allmarriage from code Aries.

(34:36):
I'm still running actually.
I forgot how to use react and view.

Don Hansen (34:41):
Okay.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,

Don Hansen (34:46):
okay.
Let me

think.
So

Don Hansen (34:52):
okay.
First of all, I like, um, Michael,I like that you and Francis
like, like the opposite parts,um, that is really interesting.

Yeah.
And I, I do agree with Francis aboutlike, um, like I see what he means about
the, the, I guess, microcosm of Americanculture, cuz we had a lot of people from
different countries in my cohort as well.
And like, you know, in, in our discordchat room, like hearing their reactions
to things that would be said anddone, uh, in the, um, in classes or

(35:25):
whatever is like really interesting as.
It, it, it was really like refreshingactually, but, um, uh, yeah.
Yeah.
That's a good point to make.
It is kind of like thisweird, um, I don't know.
I guess I'll use the word progressive.
It's like, it's a very like progressivechunk of like, I don't know, maybe

(35:45):
Silicon valley, high tech culturein Japan, I guess I never thought
about it at first, but it is avery like, Americanized viewpoint

Don Hansen (35:56):
and that's, um, God, we could get into like, uh, so
much depth about, um, just Siliconvalley culture being introduced.
Right.
Um, and some people love it.
Some people hate it.
That just that's the fact of it.
And so there is this, I, I amunder, this is my personal opinion.
I'm under the boat that, um, there is alot of sensitivity in the tech culture.

(36:20):
And, um, I think that we need to, yeah.
Sometimes like the fact that yourinstructor made a joke, um, and
like pulled you aside to apologize.
I, I feel.
Everyone's so afraid to like, say thewrong thing and just like, completely
like demolish a relationship andyou have to understand like, human
relationships are stronger than that.

(36:42):
Like, they probably alreadyscreened everyone out.
Right.
They probably already wantedfriendly people and not people that
are just like completely trash inothers and like putting others down.
Right.
And so you go into a program like this,it's like, it's okay to kind of let people
step on each other's toes a little bitand figure it out and, and kind of talk
through it and figure out the personalitybefore, like, um, before you like jump

(37:06):
to conclusions on like, you completelyoffended them or like you, I don't know.
You're just oblivious to, Idon't know, like sometimes.
Relationships and T need tohave some longevity and you
figure out the other person.
Um, and if you wanna be cautious, youknow, just be incredibly kind and, um,
just don't push boundaries right away.

(37:26):
But like, there is this notion of kind oflike sensitivity and like in my developer
positions too, some more, a littlebit more open and honest and candid.
It's like, we just told each otherwhat we thought we didn't get offended.
And we built strongrelationships from that.
Like, and we, you know, we told jokesand everything, and if we crossed a
boundary, you know, we apologize ifwe offended someone, but sometimes I

(37:46):
see like people like really tiptoeingand culture and like really tiptoeing,
no one builds strong relationships.
Like it's all kind of like, you'rejust trying to say the right things.
And so is scared to offend people.
It's like, I see a lot of, uh, peoplejust like, not really having real
conversations with each other andsometimes that like Silicon valley,

(38:06):
um, I mean, like I said, I could doan entire episode about that, but.
What I'm trying to say is, um,that progressive culture in
tech, it, it is kind of weird.
And I do, I, I think what I find reallyweird about it is this coding bootcamp
in Japan, I'm not totally fined withAmerican culture, like really being

(38:29):
injected into Japan that strongly,and I've heard stories like that.
Um, and I wonder, I don't, it kindof makes me wonder, like what the
culture is in like web developmentas a software engineer in Japan.
Has that been Americanizedhas Silicon valley like really
injected that culture in Japan?
Maybe that's a topic of itsown, but, um, I don't know.

(38:53):
I'm just, I'm thinking through this.
That's, that's just an interestingpoint that you brought out, so
maybe some people would enjoy it.
Maybe some people wouldn't.
Yeah.
any, any thoughts about that?
Cause I, I think it's a reallyinteresting part that you guys brought up.

Michael Metc (39:10):
if my, my, my, my, that the knee jerk cynical side of me
says, it's very good for marketing.
And, um, you know, I guess just, um,I, I think there's a marketing benefit,
but I also do think that, you know,the, the people really do want to
care about people and they really are,um, accommodating and understanding.

(39:35):
Um, and yeah, I guess that'swhat I'll say about that.
I'm, I'm kind of curious aboutlike, what CHEI thinks, because my
understanding was, you know, whenyou're, when you're in a cohort, so
let's say a cohort lasts like 12 weeks.
So when you come in, when you startyour cohort, the cohort before you
is like starting their like seventhweek, they're already halfway through.

(39:57):
So there's this kind of overlapbetween cohorts at any given time.
And I remember when I came into mycohort, the cohort before me was like
halfway through, it was much smallerand it, you know, like Francis's cohort
was a mix of Japanese and English.
Um, but I remember seeing thatthe Japanese students had a

(40:18):
Japanese teacher and they receivedtheir instruction in Japanese.
And so I'm curious, like from Yuki'spoint of view, mm-hmm, like, were
you taught from a Japanese instructorand like within the Japanese.
Classes and the students, was thatmore of like, did you feel like the
culture and the instruction style wasmore Japanese or did you feel like

(40:41):
the, we took the English American.
Oh, okay.
Right.

Yeah.
There are no Japanese class at the, Isee my, yeah, when I took the class.
So

Michael (40:53):
was, was there not like a Japanese teacher on staff at the time or

actually, yeah, there are Japanese teachers,
but uh, no Japanese class.
It was only English.
Okay.
Or,

well, well mean my, my classmates.
In the Japanese cohort,cuz at the end, right.
The projects were all mixed in.
So me, I was able to talk to theJapanese only students and to
my understanding, it's prettymuch a copy paste of what it is.
Mm.
Uh, like we were always finishing prettymuch at the same time for lessons.

(41:28):
Uh, I mean, it's, again, it's just alittle more like it's a little harder
when you're in projects with somestudents that only speak English or
only speak Japanese, but beside this,it really feels like it's the same.
Uh, for me at my time, both ofthe teachers were pretty solid.
Uh, so I was pretty like happy, Ithink one better than the other, but

(41:51):
anyway, it's not do competitions,but uh, so I feel that, um, yeah, but
I feel the English side will get alittle more support because I think.
A lot of the staff willlike speak only English.
Some of them some only Japanese, butlike the important, like the CEO is
English only and things like this.

(42:12):
So things like this, but yeah, I feltit was fair and the same, I didn't feel
like they learned more or less, so.
Yeah.

Don Hansen (42:22):
Okay.
Well, let's, uh, actually expand on that.
Um, Yukimi and Michael, what'dyou think of your instructors?

Um,

Yukimi O (42:32):
I think they are good.
Um, but I took two cohort.
So the first cohort myinstructor lives in so far away.
It's she, he not in Tokyo.
He lives in some island near South Korea.

(42:54):
But he's still in Japan,so he never come to school.
So we had a hundredpercent remote environment.
So that makes for me running totally newthings and something difficult to subject
totally remote was so difficult for me.

(43:16):
So I think it was part ofthe reason I struggled a lot.
So yeah, the first teacher was notgood for me, but the second teacher,
he comes to school every day.
So it was easy to ask himquestion, chatting him.

Don Hansen (43:40):
Okay.
That makes sense.
Okay.
Sounds like in person was a better

Yukimi Otag (43:44):
experience for you.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
But you know, this is a pandemictime, so nobody can force instructor
to come to school every day.

Don Hansen (43:56):
Okay.
How about you, Michael?

Michael (43:59):
Yeah, so Michael cohort H we had 17 students and we had three
different teachers and, um, there wasvery clearly like, uh, the best teacher
and then maybe like a middle tierteacher and then like a lower tier.
Oh gosh.
I, I don't wanna say anything meanor anything, but like, for example, I

(44:22):
guess the lead teacher I'll say, um,interestingly enough was a self-taught
developer who had been doing it for whohad been studying web development for, I
think like eight, nine, almost 10 years.
So he'd been around and he was very.
Confident and, you know,everyone felt confidence in him.

(44:46):
And then, um, so yeah, I noticed, I, Iwas thinking about this the other day.
Like sometimes I feel like wouldn't,it have been nice if maybe I had been
in like some kind of smaller group withlike a single teacher so that everyone
could get more focused attention.
And then I was thinking about, well, youknow, they could have done that with a

(45:08):
group of 17 students and they kind ofdid, it was like, there was, I think
it was like six, six and five, wherelike these six students, this, you were
assigned to this person as your mentor,and you had this person as your mentor
and you had this person as your mentor.
Uh, the group I was in, I wouldsay was with the, what I would

(45:28):
call the mid-tier teacher.
But during lectures, all three teacherswould kind of take turns, teaching the
lesson and, um, , you know, I was, I waswondering like, well, why they had us all
in, in one big group taking instructionfrom the three different teachers, instead

(45:48):
of breaking us down, like they had intothe smaller groups and having us receive
instruction only from that one teacher.
Um, and I guess thinking on it now,I think it's because the quality
of the teachers was different.
Like if you did split up the whole classinto groups, this group that might get
assigned the low, low tier teacher toreceive only instruction from them, um,

(46:14):
would not have benefited as much as,you know, the group that got assigned
to the, the lead teacher, I'll say.
And so basically, um, I guess the bestthing they could have done is like try
and distribute all of the teachers.
Teachings as equal as they could amongall the students and have everybody,

(46:34):
uh, take the instruction together.
Um, but yeah, so I guess there waslike, um, competence difference between
the teachers, which I, I think is, youknow, natural in any case, you know,
if you have someone who's been doingit for a long time, they're just gonna
be more experienced to know things.
Um, and you know, they would deliverthe lecture in the morning and then

(46:56):
usually, you know, you're sent off to doyour assignment for the day or whatever.
And, uh, yeah, if you havetrouble, there's like a slack
channel and you can ask questions.
Um, but yeah, I feel liketeachers were mostly hands off.
Like if you, if you requestedlike personal assistance or

(47:17):
something, you could get it,but I usually didn't do that.
And I.
Didn't have much like one on oneinstruction from a teacher, it was
just kinda like I was in the pool witheverybody else during the lectures.
And we would get a certain quality ofteaching on the lecture, depending on
which one of the teachers was teaching it.

(47:37):
Um, and there'd also be likea demonstration of the concept
that they were going over.
Like if, if we were learning APIs,you know, they'd, you'd watch like
a, a video and then there wouldbe like a code demonstration.
But, uh, there were many times inmy cohort where even the instructor
led code demonstration wouldn'teven get finished because other

(47:58):
students would ask questions.
And so it kind of getderailed into this QA session.
And then, you know, because time,time, time, um, Hey, we just
gotta get on the assignment.
Um, I'll post the code over here.
If you have questions you can ask,but, um, you know, I feel like, Hmm.
Yeah, I think the instructors weregood, but again, in my case, in my

(48:21):
cohort, uh, maybe time managementand management of how the classes were
run could have been a little betteror maybe a little more uniform and
tight between all of the teachers.
Uh, because you know, the thing I'mcraving most is that directed instruction
from a teacher, a professional, someonewho is supposed to be my mentor,

(48:42):
but a lot of times that felt likeit got cut short or short changed.
Um, that's my long answerto your short question.
Yeah.

Francis (48:53):
Could, could I chime in to expand a little more on go for yeah.
Uh, me, I, I agree everything yousaid, but actually it's maybe something
a little more outside of this.
It's one of the big red flags Ifeel of that I heard from booth
camps is booth camps that hiretheir old students as teachers and.

(49:14):
that was one thing that I waslooking and I hoped that it
wasn't like this encode Chrysalis.
And when I started to like checkdifferent boot camps, I asked,
well, how about the teachers?
Are they like experience?
Like, do they haveexperience in the work field?
And they said, oh yeah, yeah, no problem.
And big surprise.
I come in and they're all exstudents like the, I know who you're

(49:35):
talking, uh, about Michael and him.
He joined in after my cohort.
So all of my teachers were old students.
So this is kind of pretty bad.
And the mid-tier teachersare all ex students.
Uh, I was lucky one of theex students was amazing.

(49:55):
So he was a great mentor and student,I mean, I've asked my company to
hire him and he works with me now.
So that's how much I, heleft a good impression on me.
So, um, but.
None of them had actual experience.
They were just like hungry to learn andthey were able to share that passion
with us, but it would've been nice for mycohort, cuz me it's been a year exactly a

(50:18):
year that I did finished code Chrysalis.
So I didn't have any of those.
Like, like how do you say hardened?
Uh, and uh, like BA battlehardened, like developer that
I've been doing it for 10 years.
So, uh, that was definitely a big redflag that kind of made me doubt, uh, crap.

(50:38):
I wasted that much money.
I'm gonna just learn from peoplewho never worked in the field,
but it didn't work out this way.
I stayed positive in the end, but in theend, you know, you're always freaking out
because you spent so much money, so youwanna make sure you get, uh, yeah, but.
but the thing is that theteachers do change a lot.

(50:59):
Like the two of the teachers that wereteaching me are not even working there
and it's been a year only anymore.
So that's also kind of,

Don H (51:10):
why do you think that is,

um, that Saturdays girl salary is

grow?
Yeah, salary it's mid, mid tier, butfor me, both of my teachers, they were
like, uh, very hungry to learn more.
And I think they, before theywere like teacher engineers.
So they were also like helping,developing their websites
and their programs and stuff.
But I think they switched to no code.

(51:36):
So they're just using likehops up CMS to do everything.
So because of this, I think itturned the two of them down and
they started looking elsewhere andthat's when I grabbed my teacher.

Don Hansen (51:50):
that's interesting.
That's really interesting.
Let me thinkso big advocate for teachers
having experience in the industry.
It makes a big difference.
Mm-hmm but on the flip side, theyalso like teaching is a skill in

(52:11):
itself where you need to give yoursoftware engineers time to like really
pick that up and it can help to havegone through the previous curriculum.
I would argue, and I've seen thissoftware engineering experience.
Um, even if you have to pullsomeone outside of the coding
bootcamp, that wasn't an alumniusually ends up benefiting that
instructor and the students more.

(52:32):
Um, so it's like, I don't like youcan, you can be a good enough teacher
where that experience won't hurt.
That lack of experience won't hurtyou much, but usually good strong
quality instruction from coding.
Bootcamps comes from softwareengineers that have experience.
You can, in my opinion, like it can,you, you can give feedback and people.
Generally seem to be able to pickup teaching pretty well soft skills

(52:55):
sometimes, and being able to deliverfeedback effectively, time management,
like they're all like skills and that'sanother thing, time management in
itself, that's, that's really importantand that's kind of hard to teach.
Sometimes a lot of people bring bad timemanagement skills to their curriculum
and teaching, and that that can affectthe whole, you know, curriculum.
Well, not the curriculum, but likethe teaching, the courses, the

(53:15):
lessons a lot more than you think.
And, um, that's where I'd argue that openended Q and a that I kept turning into.
I know a lot of people wouldbe frustrated with that.
Um, so I, I can empathize with that.
So again, like that's something,maybe they can work on work
on that time management.
I would argue.
It's a really good thing to reallyfocus in and then maybe an, uh,

(53:37):
answer questions afterwards.
Like you have to kind of, most coding,boot camps will dedicate time afterwards.
They might answer a few questions,but if it's getting off the rails,
it's like, Hey, you know, we gottafinish this let's we have time
dedicated to answer it afterwards.
But it, that goes into like,well, honestly, 12 weeks,
they're trying to cram a lot.
I don't even know how they'regonna dedicate that time.

(53:58):
It feels like they're, I don't know.
It feels like they're reallytrying to teach a lot.
So I'm just thinking through this.
Um, I feel like I have a good,good sense of your experiences.
I really do.
And I could elaborate a lot more,but I wanna dive into specifically
career services, France.

(54:19):
I promised you, we bring it back up.
Career services is really importantand it's, you know, like you're
learning, coding, you're learning.
So you're growing as a software engineer.
and you're also becomingreally good at the job search.
It's an entirely separate skill.
It really helps to have alot of support with that.
Um, and it's, it's hard.
A lot of people struggle with that.

(54:39):
So let's talk about career services.
What do you think about it?

Francis Ga (54:47):
I'll start, I guess.
So, um, me career support was oneof the thing that maybe sold me
the bootcamp, cuz me, I reallywanted to make that career switch.
It was very important to me.
So I went guns blazing.
I'm gonna get rejected 5 million times.
I don't care.
I'm gonna.

(55:07):
Do it.
And the, the program directorthat was with me, like the one
that supported the career supportdirector, she was so supportive.
And basically she's give, she'll giveyou as much support as you ask her.
So if I message her every day,she'll reply to me every day.

(55:27):
If we're just joining once a week, ourlike, meeting to like keep track of what's
going on, it's gonna be once a week.
So it's really, youcan get as much as you.
Ask them to give you.
And that was great.
Uh, for me, the job huntingprocess was of course grueling
and painful, like everyone.
But I had her, I had other peopleof my cohort that I got a lot of

(55:51):
support from, and I got rejectedso many times and maybe that's
something that people wants to hear.
I got rejected so many timesI got a lot of interviews.
Uh, you, you screwed them up.
Some interviews, you do them, you know,you can't get the job, but you want to
have the interview practice and it's okay.
I think it's part of the fun.

(56:12):
Um, and yeah, the careersupport for me was really good.
Um, and the person that, uh, providedit to me is still like for me,
someone that really helped me intomy, uh, whole job search process.
So, uh, yeah.
I'm curious to hear the other two.
What, what did you experience with this?

Yukimi Ota (56:34):
Very good, actually.
Yeah.
I agree with you.
We, I had a like 30 minutes,30 minutes advice, advice, time
per week with the counselor.
And so every week she advise me,okay, what should I do this week?

(56:57):
And I, I followed, I, I followedher advice and I apply, apply job.
And I got some, uh, interviews then Ithink the most favorite things about
career at advisor at code is well,Saturday negotiation for me, it.

(57:23):
So difficult demand.
I wanna have, I don't have moneycause everybody likes money.
Right?
Mm-hmm I wanna get this much money,but it's so difficult to do that.
So I think, yeah, my advisor gave mereally good advice for salary negotiation

(57:47):
and during fi looking for a job, Icommunicate with her every day with slack.
That also helped me to find a job

Don Hansen (57:59):
in Japan.
Is salary negotiation frowned upon?

I think it, uh, depends on company.

Okay.

Don Hansen (58:13):
All right.
I was just curious.
Cool.
Mm-hmm how about you?
What's your opinion on

Michael Metcal (58:17):
career services?
Yeah, no, I totally agree with everything,uh, Francis and Yukimi said like,
looking back on it now, all right.
Probably the whole point of doing any ofthis code Chrysalis, any bootcamp, like
going on this endeavor, the key is gettinga job, like for forget everything else.

(58:38):
That's the point?
Are you getting a job?
Are you not getting a job?
And like looking back at it, everythingduring the 12 weeks, all the curriculum,
all of this, all the projects, all ofthat, um, almost seems I, I don't want
to quite fully say like unimportant, butcompared to like the, the critical element

(59:01):
of job support at the very end, whenit's like, all right, it's all over now.
It's like boots on the ground.
Go, go, go get it.
Um, the support was amazing.
Um, yeah, I'm.
Uh, I don't, I don't know who everyonehad on support, their support team.
Isn't that huge.
I think right now they have like twopeople on the support team, but, uh,

(59:23):
yeah, my support advisor was great,extremely positive and encouraging.
And um, yeah, I guess another thing tomention too, is that the bootcamp does
take into account like your background andyour skills, you know, so for example, in
Japan, if you have like maybe, um, a highJapanese language, skill or certification,

(59:48):
uh, and a Japanese company comes to codeChrysalis and they're like, Hey, we're
looking for a graduate from your school.
Do you have anyone?
You know, we might be interested in, uh,you know, they'll tap you on the shoulder.
They're like, Hey, You know, you'restudying robotics, there's this
robotics company looking for someone,would you be interested in arranging
an interview, this kind of a thing.

(01:00:08):
So support also does thatthey'll look at your personal
strengths and this kind of thing.
And if a company happens to come along,that might be a good fit for you.
They'll try and facilitatea connection there.
Um, yeah.
Code Chrysalis is very much, I don't know.
Almost like, um, it, it kind of builds up.
It gets this excitement going andyou're getting to the end of the

(01:00:29):
program and it's very much likea, a strike while the iron is hot.
It's like, all right, you're graduated.
Job hunt, go.
I want like 40 applications out thisweek and we're gonna keep it up.
We're gonna keep on track.
And, um, once that handoff happensbetween the time you graduate and
then the time when you're in the madmax world of the job hunt , I don't

(01:00:52):
know, just mad max pops in my head,cuz it just feels like this endless
apocalypse of like, maybe you'll find adrink of water somewhere or something.
It's like, you know, you just gottaget that first drink of water.
Like the support system that they havein place is excellent for just keeping
you going, as long as you want to go,like they're, they're there for you.

(01:01:14):
And even after you get a first job,like you can still come back to
code Chrysalis for like, you know,help with negotiations, you know,
for example and things like that.
Um, so yeah, like I've nothing butpositive things to say about the
support team during the last part ofthe program, there is kind of like,
um, there are sessions that talk aboutthe job hunt and you write your CV and

(01:01:38):
your resume and they have it checked.
Uh, I don't know how particular thisis to my situation, but the, the people
in the support program come from an HRbackground, not necessarily a software
background, so they have a lot ofexperience with resumes and they will
give you advice based on their experience.
But during my support phase, um, my, Iguess, support counselor, whoever you

(01:02:05):
want, however you wanna call 'em, uh,asked if I wanted to kind of have like
a one-on-one session with one of thepeople who wrote the curriculum for code
Chrysalis, way back when it first started.
And I said, yeah, I'd love that.
Um, and so he looked at my resumeand we had this meeting and.

(01:02:28):
You know, this guy's comingfrom a software background.
I think he might have been like a formalGoogle developer or something, but he
helped write the whole curriculum for thewhole bootcamp that they're using now.
And some of the advice he gave me about myresume was actually some of the points are
actually completely opposite to what, youknow, the HR support person had told me.
So, um, not to say that you can'ttrust the HR support people and code

(01:02:54):
Chrysalis, but understand that likethere is people are coming at your resume
from different viewpoints, you know?
And I say, you know, if you can, well, youwill get the HR advice, but if you can.
Shop your resume to maybe a softwaredeveloper or a professional in the
industry, like try and get as manyviewpoints as you can on your resume
to try and Polish it up that much more.

Don Hanse (01:03:16):
That's good feedback.
I like that.
Um, and I, I would even say with mycoding bootcamp, I hear that story with
other coding, bootcamps, um, sometimesknow the person reviewing your resume.
They weren't a software engineerand it does help to get those
multiple perspectives a hundredpercent agree with that.
Um, okay.
Let's wrap it up with this final thing.

(01:03:38):
Um, Yukimi will start with you.
What is one thing you wouldwant the program to improve
with constructive feedback?

Michael Metcalf (01:03:46):
Mm.
Um, let think about that.
Can you skip to who else?
Um, I guess, um, for, for me the thingI felt like I was really craving.

(01:04:13):
And the thing that I, um, missed out onwas like maybe more one on one time with
an instructor going over, maybe somekind of code review, even if it's just
like 30 minutes or something like oncea week or even once every two weeks now,
in all fairness code Chrysalis does letyou know that like at any time you can

(01:04:33):
request to be audited on your performanceso far, but it has to come from you.
And it's a thing thatyou set off on the side.
So there, there is that.
So maybe I'm not being completelyfair in my critique, but, um,
and again, when you have as manystudents as like up to 17, You know,
that could be a logistics problem.

(01:04:54):
Again, there's zero time.
There's just not enough time reallyto give most of the stuff they're
already doing the justice it needs.
Um, but yeah, like maybe something thatwas more structured, you know, like in
the support, like, I think it's mandatory.
Like you have to meet everyweek with your advisor.

(01:05:14):
Like maybe something like that on thecode review side of things while you're
actually going through the curriculum.
Uh, if anything, like for me that would'vehelped boost my own confidence in myself,
um, which I think was my biggest problem,I guess, before, and even after the
bootcamp was like, I didn't, I had zeroconfidence in my skills at the time.

(01:05:37):
Okay.
Um, but yeah, that's good feedback.

Francis Gaudreau (01:05:45):
Um, for me, the feedback would be, I guess,

Just,

Francis Gaud (01:05:55):
I guess, trying to get instructors, like it's okay that
they did the booth camp, but theywould've need to be on the job market.
Then you try to bringthem back type of thing.
That looks nice.
And one of the thing, and I guess it's sopersonal, but it's tried like me, the, the
fact that they only have positive, likereviews was a very big downside for me.

(01:06:20):
Like for me, when everything is fivestars, there's something going wrong.
Like I do not trust a five star.
Nothing is really five star.
Nothing is perfect.
So that's why when I see five star,I thought like, I, I think they
need to let people give just okay.
Like me.
I don't think it was terrible.
I don't think it was the best.
It's still a good, likeseven out of 10, like.

(01:06:43):
If you want to be a dev, do it,but it's not like a mind blowing
experience that will change everything.
No, but it's good.
It's solid.
So I feel they're not transparentenough and they should just
be proud of being honest.
Like they don't, they won't put my reviewcuz I did give a review, uh, of, of

(01:07:04):
that to my, uh, the, the support team.
And they will never put it cuzme it's like 3.5 out 3.5 stars.
So it's not the perfectscore, best thing ever.
It's more like a genuine critique.
And I think a lot of people, it will turnthem off if it's the same as if you see
like a bunch of product comments, it'slike best thing ever, but you don't see

(01:07:25):
like anything else it's kind of fishy.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm too negative, but I thought theyshould just let people give whatever their
opinion and embrace the negativity and thepositivity to then improve on themselves.
I like, I like how everyone istiptoeing about like being too negative.
Like my podcast is super critical.

(01:07:46):
You gotta watch some other episodes.
Um, all of, all of you, allthis feedback is helpful.
You have all been very kindand nice to the program.
I promise you, but yes.
Um, it's dishonest.
That's exactly what it is.
It's not transparent.
And why do you think I have apodcast that's growing around this?
It's like, this is like my main thingabout doing these coding bootcamp reviews.
It's like people, students do not feellike they're being delivered an honest,

(01:08:09):
transparent representation to the program.
And it was okay to even have likea two star review that's okay.
Like the program isn't gonnabe perfect for anyone right.
Or everyone.
And so, yeah, I, yeah, five star reviews.
They don't exist.
Uh, I would even argue onestar reviews are probably too
emotional and they don't exist.
And so, um, I would take thatinto consideration, but, um,

(01:08:31):
yeah, that's good feedback.
How about you?
Kimmi I know you've been, I actuallywanna challenge you cuz you've
said nothing but positive things.
So have you come up with something?

Yukimi Otagiri (01:08:40):
Yes, yes, yes.
One thing I want to, to fixit, it, um, code is they both
instructor and the student canchoose being on site or remote.
And because of this situation, manypeople, uh, choose remote, but I think

(01:09:06):
it's okay to choose remote, but I thinkit's better to run onsite situation.
So I want to code cruisers,encourage people to come on site

Don Hansen (01:09:23):
and I think.
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the thing, it's likethe quality of education, the
experience is less with remote.
It just almost always is.
And you know, it's like a lot ofpeople are so afraid to say it.
It's like, I think a lot of peopleare just ready to connect with others.
Again, a lot of peopleare ready to go in person.
They're, you're paying a lot of money.
This program you're paying a lot of money.

(01:09:45):
And so at the very least theyshould be, um, hopefully they're at
least, uh, dumping the price down.
You shouldn't be paying nearlyas much if you're remote.
That's my opinion.
Do they do that?
No.
No.
Okay.
So, um, yeah, a hundredpercent agree with you.
I think that's really good feedback.
Um, cool.

(01:10:05):
So I was trying to get you outearly, um, but eh, kind of early.
Cool.
I think we can wrap up here.
It's all really good feedback.
I think this is gonna be a lot ofhelpful or very helpful for people.
Did you wanna say

Michael Me (01:10:17):
something like that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Before, uh, before we wrap thisup, um, I I'd like to talk about
maybe alternatives to people.
Like if, if you're thinking about notdoing a boot camp or, or I guess like
in hindsight, like if I could do itall over again, you know, because I
think, you know, Francis and Yukimi, Iguess you both succeeded and that you,

(01:10:40):
you pushed through and you got a job.
But whereas me, I wonder, like if Ihad done things a little differently,
if I might be in a different placenow, like if I might actually have
succeeded in getting a job, um, and solike when I was looking up or studying
you, you know, how do people getinto software engineering in my mind?

(01:11:02):
And again, this is all on me, but in mymind, I kind of had it down to two things.
You're either completely self-taught oryou go to a bootcamp and that kind of
helps, you know, give you a foothold in.
But I think maybe a thirdmore useful alternative that
people should consider is.
If you're already in the mindset thatyou're going to pull the trigger on

(01:11:23):
spending a ton of money and sacrificingthe time, time is another thing.
People, I don't think, uh, takeinto consideration enough, like
think about the time you haveto spend to save up that money.
Plus the three months of thebootcamp, plus the however long three,
six, sometimes even nine months.
Like there are graduates whohave not gotten a job until like

(01:11:44):
nine months after they graduated.
So from a time perspective, it'sa huge investment, you know, and
you're converting that to money.
You know, how are you going to live andeat and survive during the job hunt too?
Um, so if you already have it set inyour mind that you're going to pull
the trigger on spending all thismoney, maybe consider like instead of

(01:12:05):
the bootcamp for one thing, and thisis something that I think would've
benefited myself, uh, is that I think.
not just me, but I think a lot of peopleprobably have like confidence issues or
maybe low self-esteem issues, or maybea lot of just negative mental baggage
that doesn't, that isn't going to helpthem when you get into the bootcamp.

(01:12:29):
Um, like hearing Francis talk,I feel like in some ways you
might be the opposite of me.
Like, you seem like avery, like, go getter.
Like you said, you're a bossy personand you're like, I'm gonna do this.
And I think if you're the kindof person that has that kind of
mindset, I think, um, going throughcode Chrysalis, you can succeed.
You can push through.
I think that people that dosucceed in code Chrysalis

(01:12:51):
that has a lot to do with it.
It's the person that succeeds the,the program doesn't necessarily
teach you anything that you can'tlearn anywhere else for free.
That's another thing in the marketing Iwanna touch on a lot of times, they'll see
this phrase, we'll teach you how to learn.
Um, To me, like all that boiled downto was read to the documentation

(01:13:12):
and Google it on your own.
Like there was, there was neverthis separate lecture where
it's like, we're going to teachyou the secret of how to learn.
Like there is none of that.
It's not all it is, is justread the documentation, primary
sources and find your answersto your questions on your own.
I think that was kind of BS, but,uh, yeah, like if you're the kind

(01:13:33):
of go getter, positive person andyou're determined you're gonna
do this, I think, you know, codeChrysalis can really help you along.
You'll probably be fine.
On the other hand, if you are maybelike a pessimistic person, if you have
low self-esteem, if you struggle a lotwith negative self talk, like if it's
something that feels like a wall insideof your mind and your heart, that just

(01:13:53):
seems to like stop you all the time.
You know, maybe if you're, if you suspectyou might be suffering from depression
or whatever, instead of spending allthis money on a boot camp, Maybe.
So code Chrysalis costs like a littleover 1.3 million yen, which translates
to a little under $12,000, let's say$12,000 instead of spending $12,000

(01:14:18):
on this bootcamp program, which, youknow, education wise at best, you
know, at best, you know, dependingon what kind of teacher you're
gonna get in the teacher lotteryinstead of spending $12,000 on that.
And three months of your life,maybe take a portion of that money

(01:14:38):
again, just for illustration's sake.
Let's cut it in half.
What if you spent $6,000 investingin getting whatever help you
think you need, maybe you needto go to counseling sessions.
Maybe you need to go to therapy sessions.
Maybe you need to buy some books on.
Mindfulness or meditation or whatever,like whatever healing you think you

(01:15:01):
might need to get your mind intoa healthier place to tackle on the
huge task of learning a new skilland transitioning into a new career.
Maybe invest half of this bootcamp moneyinto that into your, into yourself.
Cuz I think at the end ofthe day, that's that's really
going to make or break people.
It's like your own mental orspiritual, emotional, whatever

(01:15:23):
makeup you have at the time.
And then maybe take the other halfof that money and straight up.
Look for mentors.
Like someone that you pay one on one,you know, just once a week, even to
maybe guide you along, give you atask, like, Hey, by next week, do
this and we'll go over your code.

(01:15:44):
And then, oh, you know, maybe insteadof this, do this, um, I think that
would be way, way more effective.
Even if you have to pay that mentor,like two, three, I don't know, $400
for one session compared to likejust dumping $12,000 into a boot
camp where it just kind of feels likeyou're in this firing line and they
just fire a shotgun at all of you.

(01:16:05):
And like, eh, maybe something willstick, maybe something won't I think
that might be like a more effectivealternative in short, I would suggest,
you know, if you're on the fence aboutthe bootcamp thing, do some deep, serious
self-reflection, um, and invest some ofthat money into helping yourself like
healing yourself and then the other into.

(01:16:27):
A mentor, like someone whois just for you, one on one.
Um, because yeah, I think even for$6,000, at $300 for once a week for
a mentor, you'll probably get way,way more quality instruction and
learning and confidence than whata bootcamp can probably offer you.

(01:16:49):
Um, and you know, even a mentor canprobably just as well give you like
job support and advice, especially ifthere's someone who spent in the industry
and knows what they're talking about.
Uh, I kind of had that revelationduring my support, uh, process.
When I had that one on one meetingwith the former, I think you might
have been a former Google developer.

(01:17:10):
It's like that one hour I spent withthat guy, just the way we talked
about things and the clear, conciseadvice he gave about my projects,
my GitHub, I was like, holy crap.
If I had given thisguy $13,000 or $12,000.
Completely different.
So consider that alternative as well.

(01:17:31):
You know, you can do this,you can do this all free.
Um, you know, self-taught all thisstuff is for free on the internet code.
Chrysalis has no secret that they'regoing to teach you just cuz you bought
into there's, nothing like that.
Um, or, you know, yeah.
Do a boot camp.
There's tons of benefits there.
You know, the, the people, the socialbenefits, the networking, um, but also

(01:17:53):
this third alternative, if you're alreadyready to pull the trigger on this, you
know, why not just think of differentways to use $12,000 or however much
money you're thinking of spending ona boot camp and seriously like reflect
on yourself and maybe focus it moreon yourself instead of giving it to an
institution, expecting them to somehowmagically turn you into this thing that

(01:18:15):
you're you think you want to become.
Sorry.
I took up a lot of time with that,but I, that was something I really
wanted to, it's been on my mind a lot.

Let's um, real quick Francis, then we gotta wrap it up.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Click, click, click.
So, uh, I completely agree withyou, uh, different perspective.
So I agree with you on the fact that,uh, yeah, it's good to, uh, like if
you're a very negative person, it'llbe super hard for you to find a job.
People in my cohort that are negativeand don't think that they're good enough.
They still are job hunting or stop the jobhunt, cuz it's so hard, completely agree.

(01:18:47):
And the other part is for me,classroom environment is the
best environment to learn.
I like to be in competition with others.
So, uh, I feel, uh, a one on onewith a mentor would bring a very
little to some people like me.
So I think the classroom,I, I completely see that.
It's good for you.
And for me, I think cast environment isgreat, cuz it's a little more structured

(01:19:08):
and also there's this like battle of whocan do better than the others that I love,
but it's not for everyone, but that's it.
Sorry Don.

all good.
Yeah.
I'm just trying to.
Be conscientious of everyone'stime, but I mean, it's a good
conversation, seriously, uh, bike.
I appreciate you expanding on that.
I've, uh, real quick.
I have a lot of self-taught developers.
I watched my videos more thanoriginally than what I started.
A lot of people feel like a codingbootcamp is the only solution nowadays.
Right.
And I think it's important to recognize.

(01:19:38):
It's like, that's why I started maybe,um, three months ago, four months
ago, I started pushing self top path.
Try it out first and kindof like, see where you lack.
Like, do you have timemanagement problems?
Do you have, uh, do you nothave confidence problems?
Are you, um, a perfectionist?
Are you, and like being able toself-assess a lot of that can help
you get specific help in those areas.

(01:20:00):
Right.
And we can go into tons of like badhabits that a lot of people come into.
Like, we're all human, right?
None of us are perfect.
All of us have badhabits and I would argue.
Assessing some of those bad habitsbefore you even go into a coding
bootcamp, maybe you could addresssome of those habits and that coding
bootcamp isn't a necessity anymore.
Right.
So I think that self-analysis isreally important, but to give you

(01:20:23):
guys your time back, um, let's goahead and jump into our outros.
Uh, so you came, if people wantedto reach out to you, maybe ask you
like a question about the codingbootcamp, where could they reach you?
Where, where, yeah.
On social media, like if theywanted to ask additional questions,
where could they reach you?
Oh,

um, to

me, yeah.
Like, uh, do you have aLinkedIn, uh, profile?
Do you want me to just, yeah.
Have

LinkedIn?
I have link blinking.
Sorry.
I, maybe I misunderstood your question.

Yeah, no worries.
No worries.
Um, okay.
Uh, Michael.
Yeah.
And I'll link yourLinkedIn below I'll link.
Everyone's in the description.
Um, Michael, where could people reach youand anything else you wanna shout out?

Michael M (01:21:03):
Uh, yeah, same thing.
Um, LinkedIn.
Michael Metcalf.
Cool.
I'm here all week.
All

right.
How about you Francis

me?
Uh, it's gonna be first LinkedIn FrancisGoro and, uh, MySpace skateboard, 86.
So, uh, whichever is good.

Okay.
Sounds good.
All right, thanks everyone.
I appreciate you coming out.
Like I said, sick aroundjust for a couple minutes.
Um, but yeah, uh, let, let me knowwhen the comments, I think that was
like a, a good ending, especiallywith Michael and Francis brought up,
um, Because like a lot of people aredeciding even if a coding bootcamp is
right for them, let alone trying tofigure out the right coding bootcamp.

(01:21:44):
So if you're watching on YouTube, letme know in the comments, but yeah.
Michael Francis, thanksso much for coming on.
See

everything.

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