March 10, 2022 • 19 mins
"I think we've been quite naïve in terms of how we've dealt with plastic and how we've let it contaminate every sphere of the environment: from the highest points of the Himalayas to the deep ocean trenches, we find plastic now."
Professor Kevin Thomas has been studying plastic since before it was cool, and he’s right – once it hits the tallest mountain peak and the bottom of the ocean, it gets a bit hard to ignore.
And yeah, it's unsightly and terrible for the environment, but what about the stuff you can’t see?
When plastic breaks down, it doesn’t go away – it just gets smaller. It also leaches chemicals, and we have no idea what either of these things do to our bodies.
Scary, right? It’s why The University of Queensland and the Minderoo Foundation have joined forces to try to find out how tiny pieces of plastic (and the chemicals used to make it) could end up inside us, and what it means for human health.
Travel with us from a beach on the west coast of Wales to a world-first lab in Brisbane to chart the unknown waters of micro and nanoplastics. Should you be using that plastic water bottle that’s been baking in your car over summer? Truth is: we don’t really know yet. But we’re figuring it out for you.
Doomscroll Remedy takes you to the edge of the existential crises that keep us up at night and introduces you to the experts working to solve them.
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Doomscroll Remedy is a University of Queensland podcast, produced by Deadset Studios.
Hosted by Stephen Stockwell. Produced by Grace Pashley, Krissy Miltiadou and Rachel Fountain at Deadset Studios, in partnership with consulting producer Zoe McDonald and commissioning editor Greta Usasz at The University of Queensland.
We acknowledge Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Australians and Traditional Custodians of the land on which this show was made.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Professor Kevin Thomas (00:00):
The west coast of Wales is pretty rural
(00:11):
has very long, yellow sandybeaches, I think some of the
best beaches in the UK. And myjob was to start at the kind of
the north of our area and drivesouth, every other day.
Stephen Stockwell (00:25):
Meet Professor Kevin Thomas. He's
from the University ofQueensland and enjoys long walks
on the beach. This is quitenice, isn't it? These wash
beaches sounds actually a fairbit better than I was expecting.
Professor Kevin Thomas (00:39):
And they would range from you know, huge
open beaches similar to the onesyou see on the Sunshine Coast
through just kind of smallerbeaches that maybe you've seen
in Canada if you watch some ofthe UK TV series down in
Cornwall, you know, more kind ofsmall rocky coves with with a
small sandy beach.
Stephen Stockwell (00:56):
Now you know, Kevin and how he described
beaches, let me introducemyself. I'm Stephen Stockwell.
And this is Doom scroll remedywhere we track down the people
tackling the problemsoverwhelming our feeds, and us.
This is a podcast from theUniversity of Queensland where
we try to understand how we gotourselves into these messy
situations and what some of usfinest are doing to get us out
(01:18):
of them. In this episode, we'regoing to take a trip from this
beach, to a world first lab inBrisbane to find out just how
far plastic is traveling intoour bodies. You see, Kevin is a
plastic researcher these days,he's the director of the
Queensland alliance forEnvironmental Health Sciences at
UQ. He's also heading up thisnew research partnership with
the Minderoo Foundation, whichI'll explain in a bit. But back
(01:41):
on these Welsh beaches, Kevinwas working for the National
rivers authority looking forplastic,
Professor Kevin Thomas (01:47):
and the one that I kind of think back to
was a place called new key whereI'd gone on holiday a lot as a
kid. And there, I started tokind of get there really early
in the morning because thecounselor actually started
running a machine over the beachto kind of clean away the debris
on the strand line. And that'sbecause they wanted it to be
(02:07):
really clean for the tourists.
What we'd find on on that beach,kind of especially after a big
storm would be you know, theplastic rod that comes from
cotton buds that people put intheir ears. And the plastic
applicators for for sanitaryproducts. And there wouldn't be
a huge amount on cigarette buttswas the other thing we would see
a lot of back then. And therewouldn't be a lot. But it was a
(02:31):
sign that you know, plastic wasmaking its way from, from sewage
systems out into the ocean andthen back onto our beaches.
Stephen Stockwell (02:41):
Now obviously, this plastic didn't
start its life on these beaches.
I mean, maybe some of it did,but most of it was flowing into
the ocean. So Kevin's work tookhim to sea.
Professor Kevin Thomas (02:51):
And part of that would be trawling for
fish to look at the health ofthe fish and what chemicals were
in those fish. And that's whenwe started to see that in those
trolls there was also a lot ofplastic litter coming up. But
the one thing I do remembervividly is we we pulled out a
tie from one of these largemining trucks. And that was
quite exciting, you know, tryingto deal with with this huge kind
(03:14):
of tire and how that ends up inthe middle of the ocean. I have
no idea. You know, it has to bedumped off a ship at the end of
the day. But but in terms of thesmallest waist it was it was
tended, well tended to be kindof plastic film products, drinks
bottles, and kind of yogurtcontainers, those types of
things that we would find.
Stephen Stockwell (03:33):
Do you look back at that time, you're on the
trawler in the 90s. And justfeel like we really didn't
understand what impact thatplastic was having in the
ecosystems.
Professor Kevin Thomas (03:44):
I don't think we even thought back then
that the plastic was going to behaving a major impact on our
ecosystems. I think we werequite naive. And I think we've
been quite naive in terms of howwe've dealt with plastic and how
we've let it contaminate, Iguess every sphere of the
environment. You know, from thehighest points of the Himalayas
(04:05):
to the deep ocean trenches, wefind plastic now. And I think
that's kind of we dropped theball in that we didn't really
look at it in terms of how itwould contaminate the
environment and the entireplanet.
Stephen Stockwell (04:19):
It is no exaggeration that plastic is
everywhere. Now, once you getthe tallest peak and bottom of
the ocean, it gets a bit hard toignore. And yeah, it's
unsightly, terrible for theenvironment, so on But what
Kevin and the team at theMinderoo Foundation are really
worried about is what you can'tsee. That's why Minderoo and the
University of Queensland havejoined forces to try and find
(04:40):
out how tiny pieces of plasticand the chemicals used to make
it could be ending up in ourbodies.
Professor Sarah Dunlop (04:46):
We're looking at the exposure to
humans during everyday use ofplastic and you'd be surprised
just think trying to imagine aworld without plastic. It's in
everything. It's in constructionmaterials. transport, food
packaging, bottled water,cosmetics, electronic goods, the
(05:08):
list just goes on. And we'reexposed to both the plastic
particles which break off allthe time, as well as the
chemicals that leach out. Thisis
Stephen Stockwell (05:17):
Professor Sarah Dunlop. She's the Minderoo
Foundation's Director of Healthand Medical Research. And when
we caught up, she was wearing anabsolutely fantastic scarf.
She's based in Perth in WesternAustralia. But that's neither
here nor there. When you starttalking about where we rank as a
country in the plastic wasterace,
Professor Sarah Dun (05:34):
Australians are apparently at the top of the
league table in terms of ouruse, we throw away about 50
kilograms per person, per year.
And when you think about theload of plastic that's on the
planet already, since it's firstfirst produced, it's about 8
billion metric tons. So that'sthe burning platform, if you
like, this is
Stephen Stockwell (05:55):
where it starts to get scary. Now we know
there are teeny tiny bits ofplastic floating around, I
guess, kind of everywhere. Andnow I'm wondering whether the
Ragu and the cheap plasticcontainer that's defrosting in
my fridge right now is actuallysafe,
Professor Sarah Dunlop (06:10):
that we need to think about plastic in
two ways. One, the plasticparticles, the micro plastics,
and the Nano plastics, and two,the chemical additives, which
make plastic what it is theplasticizers, UV stabilizers.
And those chemicals actuallyleach out of the plastic and get
(06:31):
into us. We know we're justbeginning to learn about the
micro and nanoplastics. And weknow nothing virtually about
their health effects. Whereaswith the chemicals, we know
quite a lot about a fraction ofthem. And the links that that
exposure has with harms to humanhealth.
Stephen Stockwell (06:54):
What's the difference between a micro and a
nano plastic? I mean, how farinto my body can they actually
get,
Professor Sarah Dunlop (07:01):
there's really one simple difference,
and that is size, we're lookingat something the size of
viruses. So we've seen pictures,lots of pictures of COVID-19 the
virus. And then if you comparethat to the size of a cell, a
cell is about 10 microns. Andthat's could be the size of your
(07:23):
microplastics. And then theNanos 1000 times smaller, and
they can very easily sit insidecells. And one of the things
we're concerned about is thatsay you I mean, we do we consume
microplastics they've been foundin our stools, so they're in our
they've got that far. Thequestion then is how much
(07:43):
further do they get into thehuman body, and we think that
the smaller they are, thefurther they can get. We've seen
microplastics in colon samplesafter resection and also lung
tissue associated withinflammation, which I mentioned
earlier, the nanoplastics arereally hard to chase because we
(08:05):
don't really have reliabletechniques that yet. And that's
why we're working with KevinThomas at UQ. To develop these
techniques, once we've got thatthese tiny, tiny levels, I mean
parts per billion is equivalentto one teaspoon in an Olympic
sized swimming pool, or as Isaid, one tennis ball between
here and a couple of 100kilometers away. So we need to
(08:29):
know how to measure them beforewe can understand their health
effects. When you start
Stephen Stockwell (08:33):
thinking about it in that sense, I guess
it does get kind of easy to seepotentially how they can start
creeping into our bodies andstart breaching through various
kind of cell walls and barriers.
That's
Professor Sarah Dunlop (08:45):
right. I mean, there are some very strong
barriers in our bodies, there'sthe gut barrier to start with,
and they're there for a reason.
And then the blood brainbarrier. But there's another
issue if you're a fit andhealthy person, those barriers
will be pretty robust andintact. But in various
illnesses, for example, Crohn'sdisease, and other
neurodegenerative diseases,Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and as
(09:06):
such, like the blood brainbarrier is leaky. And so it's
very easy for particles to getacross. And they can get across
either by just sipping inbetween the cells because those
connections have broken betweenthe cells or they can get taken
up by the cells and shuttledacross to the other side. So two
(09:28):
different ways in are bothequally plausible for such tiny
particles.
Stephen Stockwell (09:36):
Okay, so right now, we still don't know
for sure whether these nanoplastics are getting into our
brain. Scientists all over theworld have been trying to figure
this out. But so far, it'sactually been really hard to
measure such tiny units ofplastic. This is where the UQ
and Minderoo partnership couldbe a game changer.
Professor Sarah Dunlop (09:55):
So the next steps are to to get the
techniques for Measuringnanoplastics in human blood,
urine, solid tissues go onimproving the techniques for
measuring the plastic chemicals.
So back to the science, it'sabout getting the measurement
techniques, right, andidentifying which other
(10:17):
chemicals we need to be lookingat. And also looking at those
impacts on human health. I mean,the real jewel in the crown here
is to figure out where thenanoplastics are get into our in
our bodies, and what links thereare to human health.
Dr Cassie (10:39):
When I was a kid, I used to watch a cartoon called
Captain Planet. And that was bigon saving the environment and
sustainability and taking yourreusable bags to the shopping
center and not using single useplastic bags. So I think as a
kid, even then I knew about itand was thinking about it.
Again, I think that show had abig impact on me, which is a bit
nerdy, but that's it.
Stephen Stockwell (11:00):
I mean, Captain Planet was probably what
made me start thinking about theenvironment too, but I never
really followed through like Dr.
Cassie route has. She's now oneof the leading researchers in
the Minderoo center for plasticsand human health at UQ. And is
working in a world first plasticresearch lab. All through this
story, people kept talking aboutthis lab, a space that has been
purpose built to try andeliminate as much plastic as
(11:21):
possible, even with a specialair pressure system to keep it
from blowing in. And now Iwanted to see what all the fuss
was about going. Are we allowedin this room.
Unknown (11:42):
But I won't take you through all free rooms. But I'll
show you. We've just walked intowhat we're calling the ante room
is like the first level of thecleanroom clean lab. So we've
got three rooms. This is theante room. And then we've got an
(12:02):
airlock, which is really a tinybox that we go through next. And
then after the airline is theactual clean area.
Stephen Stockwell (12:10):
When Cassie says clean, she doesn't mean
like I just wiped down thiskitchen bench with a filthy
cloth. And now it's clean,clean. She means this room has
been designed in painstakingdetail by scientists and
architects to keep plastic nastyout. There aren't many spaces in
the world that have this littleplastic in
Unknown (12:29):
them. The architects have designed the the airflow
and everything in here that it'scalled positive pressure. So
there's a higher air pressure inthe cleanroom. And then it goes
down to the airlock. And then itgoes down to the anteroom. And
then it goes down to level six.
So the idea is when you'reopening doors, you're not
dragging stuff from outside inwith you, it's flowing out. So
really, yeah, architects havedone a great job coming up with
(12:50):
these really unique solutions.
So as you can see, this is notthe stainless steel box that
we're in right now. So this iswhat was the first level. So
we've still got vinyl flooring,we actually tested about 40
different products to see if wecould find a flooring and walls
(13:11):
and ceiling that didn't containany microplastics or any plastic
additives like valleys, and wecouldn't find any. So even we
had a special certified PVC,sorry, PVC free flooring, vinyl.
And it still contained a smallpercentage of PVC and some
valleys. And so this is why weended up going with a stainless
steel box only way that we couldfind to actually construct a
(13:31):
room that didn't haveconsumables or paints that have
polyethylene parts in them andthings like that. And also
keeping a clothing cupboard. Sowe wear lab coats, and that's
the green lab coat you can seeon the hook back there. So
they're 100% cotton. Sosynthetic fibers, polyester
nylon are actually classed asmicroplastics the little fibers
(13:51):
that fall off from yourclothing. So they're
contamination source for us. Isthe room completely plastic
free? No, it's not. We'recalling it the plastic minimize
lab. All the summary. You can'twe have done the best that we
can. And there are certainsafety things that you do need
plastic. So for instance, thepower switches, you can't put a
(14:12):
cord in a metal box, it has tobe plastic so that it's earthly
you're not gonna electrocuteyourself. So it was kind of give
and take. Yeah, and as we go,we'll keep monitoring our
background levels and seeing ifwe need to change procedures to
reduce any plastics that are inthere. So it's an ongoing
process. So we do have a windowand here we can see straight
into the cleanroom. And that'scan in there working. I can get
(14:33):
him to give us a little way
Stephen Stockwell (14:40):
to do a mind when you tap on the glass?
Dr Cassie (14:44):
They haven't complained so far, but they
might. Doesn't yet. Probablylooks like you're like a little
bit of a goldfish in there.
Stephen Stockwell (14:51):
What can doing in there at the moment.
Dr Cassie (14:53):
So Ken is working on some samples where we like I
mentioned we were doing thebackground testing. So Ken's
working on the plastic additivesand in particular phalates,
which are used as plasticizers.
They added to plastics make themmore bendable and a bit more
durable. He's had samples thathave been set up in each of the
three rooms. He's now processingthe now extracting and seeing
(15:14):
what he can drag out of thesamples. So what concentrations
of phthalates were in each roomwhile we were blink testing for
a week. And we talked to Kim.
Yeah, we can we've got anintercom system that goes from
here into the cleanroom. So wecan bring it and come and talk
to us through the wall. Hey,Ken, can you hear us? I can hear
(15:37):
you.
Stephen Stockwell (15:39):
Yeah, we can hear you, Kim. This is great.
Oh, you don't feel tooclaustrophobic in there. There's
really good in the lab. I don'thave to wear marks anymore.
fairly comfortable. All right,um, I can see you got some
headphones. In you're coming outof your scrubs. What do you what
are you listening to? Oh, justkeep up the good work.
(16:03):
terrified, terrified of touchinganything at this point. I feel
like I'm covered in plastic.
So we've just been around how tolook at the lab. And sort of,
you know, being in that spacewhere you're doing this
research, is that somethingthat's ever been done before
anywhere else in the world.
Dr Cassie (16:23):
So there are a couple labs who have converted spaces
to try and make them plasticminimized. And there's a couple
over in Europe that wedefinitely have talked to the
people there to get ideas from.
But in terms of getting a spaceand then converting it
completely from scratch, like sowe put in new walls and roof and
flooring and all this type ofthing. As far as we know, this
(16:43):
is the first time that's beendone to this extent where we are
really minimizing any vinylflooring or any paints that
might have little polyethylenemicroplastics or anything in
them off the walls. And yeah, soto this extent, to our knowledge
is the first time that this hasbeen done.
Stephen Stockwell (17:04):
So there is plastic in the air around us, we
store food and water in plastic,I am wearing something with
plastic in it pretty much allthe time. And it feels like from
what we already know about therisks. It's not going to end
well. But I'm a silver liningcynic, I expect the worst and
hope for the best. And if allthings go well, at the UQ, a
(17:25):
Minderoo plastics lab, we canactually answer some of these
bigger questions about whatnanoplastics actually do to us.
Professor Sarah Dunlop (17:32):
We have to have hope. And we know what
to do. So I think there are alot of very bright minds out
there. And our children willsurely demand differently. We
cannot leave them with apolluted planet.
Stephen Stockwell (17:48):
How How worried? Do you think I should
be at the moment? How worriedare you right now?
Professor Sarah Dunlop (17:54):
Well, I think silver lining cynic is, is
it's a good good way of thinkingof it. I am concerned that you
can't be so concerned that itabsolutely freezes you. We all
need to realize that this is aplanetary threat, and pull
together in order to solve it. Idon't have all the answers. What
I do know is that by gettingtogether and working together,
(18:15):
we will come up with the answersand we'll make them happen.
Because Steven we have to wecannot fail. We just cannot
Stephen Stockwell (18:26):
I guess if Sarah has hope I'll just keep
enjoying this overcast beach andwait for the sun to come out.
Make sure you follow Doom scrollremedy and your favorite podcast
app so you can join me as wefigure out what to do if someone
(18:46):
you love is caught up in aconspiracy theory. We'll also
unpack the feeling you get whenthe existential dread gets the
better of you.
Unknown (18:53):
When we experience anxiety. It's usually a
situation that has caused us tofeel vulnerable or exposed. And
a sense of stress sort of cancome over somebody so they feel
a sense of fear that initiatesthis circuit of physiological
changes and then the whole bodyresponds.
Stephen Stockwell (19:12):
Doomscroll remedy is a podcast from the
University of Queensland. It'sproduced by deadset studios.
It's hosted by me StevenStockwell, produced by Grace
Pashley the executive produceris Rachel fountain. The sound
design is by Chrissy multiarchto consulting producer Zoe
MacDonald and commissioningeditor Greta uses
The west coast of Wales is pretty rural
(00:11):
has very long, yellow sandybeaches, I think some of the
best beaches in the UK. And myjob was to start at the kind of
the north of our area and drivesouth, every other day.
Stephen Stockwell (00:25):
Meet Professor Kevin Thomas. He's
from the University ofQueensland and enjoys long walks
on the beach. This is quitenice, isn't it? These wash
beaches sounds actually a fairbit better than I was expecting.
Professor Kevin Thomas (00:39):
And they would range from you know, huge
open beaches similar to the onesyou see on the Sunshine Coast
through just kind of smallerbeaches that maybe you've seen
in Canada if you watch some ofthe UK TV series down in
Cornwall, you know, more kind ofsmall rocky coves with with a
small sandy beach.
Stephen Stockwell (00:56):
Now you know, Kevin and how he described
beaches, let me introducemyself. I'm Stephen Stockwell.
And this is Doom scroll remedywhere we track down the people
tackling the problemsoverwhelming our feeds, and us.
This is a podcast from theUniversity of Queensland where
we try to understand how we gotourselves into these messy
situations and what some of usfinest are doing to get us out
(01:18):
of them. In this episode, we'regoing to take a trip from this
beach, to a world first lab inBrisbane to find out just how
far plastic is traveling intoour bodies. You see, Kevin is a
plastic researcher these days,he's the director of the
Queensland alliance forEnvironmental Health Sciences at
UQ. He's also heading up thisnew research partnership with
the Minderoo Foundation, whichI'll explain in a bit. But back
(01:41):
on these Welsh beaches, Kevinwas working for the National
rivers authority looking forplastic,
Professor Kevin Thomas (01:47):
and the one that I kind of think back to
was a place called new key whereI'd gone on holiday a lot as a
kid. And there, I started tokind of get there really early
in the morning because thecounselor actually started
running a machine over the beachto kind of clean away the debris
on the strand line. And that'sbecause they wanted it to be
(02:07):
really clean for the tourists.
What we'd find on on that beach,kind of especially after a big
storm would be you know, theplastic rod that comes from
cotton buds that people put intheir ears. And the plastic
applicators for for sanitaryproducts. And there wouldn't be
a huge amount on cigarette buttswas the other thing we would see
a lot of back then. And therewouldn't be a lot. But it was a
(02:31):
sign that you know, plastic wasmaking its way from, from sewage
systems out into the ocean andthen back onto our beaches.
Stephen Stockwell (02:41):
Now obviously, this plastic didn't
start its life on these beaches.
I mean, maybe some of it did,but most of it was flowing into
the ocean. So Kevin's work tookhim to sea.
Professor Kevin Thomas (02:51):
And part of that would be trawling for
fish to look at the health ofthe fish and what chemicals were
in those fish. And that's whenwe started to see that in those
trolls there was also a lot ofplastic litter coming up. But
the one thing I do remembervividly is we we pulled out a
tie from one of these largemining trucks. And that was
quite exciting, you know, tryingto deal with with this huge kind
(03:14):
of tire and how that ends up inthe middle of the ocean. I have
no idea. You know, it has to bedumped off a ship at the end of
the day. But but in terms of thesmallest waist it was it was
tended, well tended to be kindof plastic film products, drinks
bottles, and kind of yogurtcontainers, those types of
things that we would find.
Stephen Stockwell (03:33):
Do you look back at that time, you're on the
trawler in the 90s. And justfeel like we really didn't
understand what impact thatplastic was having in the
ecosystems.
Professor Kevin Thomas (03:44):
I don't think we even thought back then
that the plastic was going to behaving a major impact on our
ecosystems. I think we werequite naive. And I think we've
been quite naive in terms of howwe've dealt with plastic and how
we've let it contaminate, Iguess every sphere of the
environment. You know, from thehighest points of the Himalayas
(04:05):
to the deep ocean trenches, wefind plastic now. And I think
that's kind of we dropped theball in that we didn't really
look at it in terms of how itwould contaminate the
environment and the entireplanet.
Stephen Stockwell (04:19):
It is no exaggeration that plastic is
everywhere. Now, once you getthe tallest peak and bottom of
the ocean, it gets a bit hard toignore. And yeah, it's
unsightly, terrible for theenvironment, so on But what
Kevin and the team at theMinderoo Foundation are really
worried about is what you can'tsee. That's why Minderoo and the
University of Queensland havejoined forces to try and find
(04:40):
out how tiny pieces of plasticand the chemicals used to make
it could be ending up in ourbodies.
Professor Sarah Dunlop (04:46):
We're looking at the exposure to
humans during everyday use ofplastic and you'd be surprised
just think trying to imagine aworld without plastic. It's in
everything. It's in constructionmaterials. transport, food
packaging, bottled water,cosmetics, electronic goods, the
(05:08):
list just goes on. And we'reexposed to both the plastic
particles which break off allthe time, as well as the
chemicals that leach out. Thisis
Stephen Stockwell (05:17):
Professor Sarah Dunlop. She's the Minderoo
Foundation's Director of Healthand Medical Research. And when
we caught up, she was wearing anabsolutely fantastic scarf.
She's based in Perth in WesternAustralia. But that's neither
here nor there. When you starttalking about where we rank as a
country in the plastic wasterace,
Professor Sarah Dun (05:34):
Australians are apparently at the top of the
league table in terms of ouruse, we throw away about 50
kilograms per person, per year.
And when you think about theload of plastic that's on the
planet already, since it's firstfirst produced, it's about 8
billion metric tons. So that'sthe burning platform, if you
like, this is
Stephen Stockwell (05:55):
where it starts to get scary. Now we know
there are teeny tiny bits ofplastic floating around, I
guess, kind of everywhere. Andnow I'm wondering whether the
Ragu and the cheap plasticcontainer that's defrosting in
my fridge right now is actuallysafe,
Professor Sarah Dunlop (06:10):
that we need to think about plastic in
two ways. One, the plasticparticles, the micro plastics,
and the Nano plastics, and two,the chemical additives, which
make plastic what it is theplasticizers, UV stabilizers.
And those chemicals actuallyleach out of the plastic and get
(06:31):
into us. We know we're justbeginning to learn about the
micro and nanoplastics. And weknow nothing virtually about
their health effects. Whereaswith the chemicals, we know
quite a lot about a fraction ofthem. And the links that that
exposure has with harms to humanhealth.
Stephen Stockwell (06:54):
What's the difference between a micro and a
nano plastic? I mean, how farinto my body can they actually
get,
Professor Sarah Dunlop (07:01):
there's really one simple difference,
and that is size, we're lookingat something the size of
viruses. So we've seen pictures,lots of pictures of COVID-19 the
virus. And then if you comparethat to the size of a cell, a
cell is about 10 microns. Andthat's could be the size of your
(07:23):
microplastics. And then theNanos 1000 times smaller, and
they can very easily sit insidecells. And one of the things
we're concerned about is thatsay you I mean, we do we consume
microplastics they've been foundin our stools, so they're in our
they've got that far. Thequestion then is how much
(07:43):
further do they get into thehuman body, and we think that
the smaller they are, thefurther they can get. We've seen
microplastics in colon samplesafter resection and also lung
tissue associated withinflammation, which I mentioned
earlier, the nanoplastics arereally hard to chase because we
(08:05):
don't really have reliabletechniques that yet. And that's
why we're working with KevinThomas at UQ. To develop these
techniques, once we've got thatthese tiny, tiny levels, I mean
parts per billion is equivalentto one teaspoon in an Olympic
sized swimming pool, or as Isaid, one tennis ball between
here and a couple of 100kilometers away. So we need to
(08:29):
know how to measure them beforewe can understand their health
effects. When you start
Stephen Stockwell (08:33):
thinking about it in that sense, I guess
it does get kind of easy to seepotentially how they can start
creeping into our bodies andstart breaching through various
kind of cell walls and barriers.
That's
Professor Sarah Dunlop (08:45):
right. I mean, there are some very strong
barriers in our bodies, there'sthe gut barrier to start with,
and they're there for a reason.
And then the blood brainbarrier. But there's another
issue if you're a fit andhealthy person, those barriers
will be pretty robust andintact. But in various
illnesses, for example, Crohn'sdisease, and other
neurodegenerative diseases,Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and as
(09:06):
such, like the blood brainbarrier is leaky. And so it's
very easy for particles to getacross. And they can get across
either by just sipping inbetween the cells because those
connections have broken betweenthe cells or they can get taken
up by the cells and shuttledacross to the other side. So two
(09:28):
different ways in are bothequally plausible for such tiny
particles.
Stephen Stockwell (09:36):
Okay, so right now, we still don't know
for sure whether these nanoplastics are getting into our
brain. Scientists all over theworld have been trying to figure
this out. But so far, it'sactually been really hard to
measure such tiny units ofplastic. This is where the UQ
and Minderoo partnership couldbe a game changer.
Professor Sarah Dunlop (09:55):
So the next steps are to to get the
techniques for Measuringnanoplastics in human blood,
urine, solid tissues go onimproving the techniques for
measuring the plastic chemicals.
So back to the science, it'sabout getting the measurement
techniques, right, andidentifying which other
(10:17):
chemicals we need to be lookingat. And also looking at those
impacts on human health. I mean,the real jewel in the crown here
is to figure out where thenanoplastics are get into our in
our bodies, and what links thereare to human health.
Dr Cassie (10:39):
When I was a kid, I used to watch a cartoon called
Captain Planet. And that was bigon saving the environment and
sustainability and taking yourreusable bags to the shopping
center and not using single useplastic bags. So I think as a
kid, even then I knew about itand was thinking about it.
Again, I think that show had abig impact on me, which is a bit
nerdy, but that's it.
Stephen Stockwell (11:00):
I mean, Captain Planet was probably what
made me start thinking about theenvironment too, but I never
really followed through like Dr.
Cassie route has. She's now oneof the leading researchers in
the Minderoo center for plasticsand human health at UQ. And is
working in a world first plasticresearch lab. All through this
story, people kept talking aboutthis lab, a space that has been
purpose built to try andeliminate as much plastic as
(11:21):
possible, even with a specialair pressure system to keep it
from blowing in. And now Iwanted to see what all the fuss
was about going. Are we allowedin this room.
Unknown (11:42):
But I won't take you through all free rooms. But I'll
show you. We've just walked intowhat we're calling the ante room
is like the first level of thecleanroom clean lab. So we've
got three rooms. This is theante room. And then we've got an
(12:02):
airlock, which is really a tinybox that we go through next. And
then after the airline is theactual clean area.
Stephen Stockwell (12:10):
When Cassie says clean, she doesn't mean
like I just wiped down thiskitchen bench with a filthy
cloth. And now it's clean,clean. She means this room has
been designed in painstakingdetail by scientists and
architects to keep plastic nastyout. There aren't many spaces in
the world that have this littleplastic in
Unknown (12:29):
them. The architects have designed the the airflow
and everything in here that it'scalled positive pressure. So
there's a higher air pressure inthe cleanroom. And then it goes
down to the airlock. And then itgoes down to the anteroom. And
then it goes down to level six.
So the idea is when you'reopening doors, you're not
dragging stuff from outside inwith you, it's flowing out. So
really, yeah, architects havedone a great job coming up with
(12:50):
these really unique solutions.
So as you can see, this is notthe stainless steel box that
we're in right now. So this iswhat was the first level. So
we've still got vinyl flooring,we actually tested about 40
different products to see if wecould find a flooring and walls
(13:11):
and ceiling that didn't containany microplastics or any plastic
additives like valleys, and wecouldn't find any. So even we
had a special certified PVC,sorry, PVC free flooring, vinyl.
And it still contained a smallpercentage of PVC and some
valleys. And so this is why weended up going with a stainless
steel box only way that we couldfind to actually construct a
(13:31):
room that didn't haveconsumables or paints that have
polyethylene parts in them andthings like that. And also
keeping a clothing cupboard. Sowe wear lab coats, and that's
the green lab coat you can seeon the hook back there. So
they're 100% cotton. Sosynthetic fibers, polyester
nylon are actually classed asmicroplastics the little fibers
(13:51):
that fall off from yourclothing. So they're
contamination source for us. Isthe room completely plastic
free? No, it's not. We'recalling it the plastic minimize
lab. All the summary. You can'twe have done the best that we
can. And there are certainsafety things that you do need
plastic. So for instance, thepower switches, you can't put a
(14:12):
cord in a metal box, it has tobe plastic so that it's earthly
you're not gonna electrocuteyourself. So it was kind of give
and take. Yeah, and as we go,we'll keep monitoring our
background levels and seeing ifwe need to change procedures to
reduce any plastics that are inthere. So it's an ongoing
process. So we do have a windowand here we can see straight
into the cleanroom. And that'scan in there working. I can get
(14:33):
him to give us a little way
Stephen Stockwell (14:40):
to do a mind when you tap on the glass?
Dr Cassie (14:44):
They haven't complained so far, but they
might. Doesn't yet. Probablylooks like you're like a little
bit of a goldfish in there.
Stephen Stockwell (14:51):
What can doing in there at the moment.
Dr Cassie (14:53):
So Ken is working on some samples where we like I
mentioned we were doing thebackground testing. So Ken's
working on the plastic additivesand in particular phalates,
which are used as plasticizers.
They added to plastics make themmore bendable and a bit more
durable. He's had samples thathave been set up in each of the
three rooms. He's now processingthe now extracting and seeing
(15:14):
what he can drag out of thesamples. So what concentrations
of phthalates were in each roomwhile we were blink testing for
a week. And we talked to Kim.
Yeah, we can we've got anintercom system that goes from
here into the cleanroom. So wecan bring it and come and talk
to us through the wall. Hey,Ken, can you hear us? I can hear
(15:37):
you.
Stephen Stockwell (15:39):
Yeah, we can hear you, Kim. This is great.
Oh, you don't feel tooclaustrophobic in there. There's
really good in the lab. I don'thave to wear marks anymore.
fairly comfortable. All right,um, I can see you got some
headphones. In you're coming outof your scrubs. What do you what
are you listening to? Oh, justkeep up the good work.
(16:03):
terrified, terrified of touchinganything at this point. I feel
like I'm covered in plastic.
So we've just been around how tolook at the lab. And sort of,
you know, being in that spacewhere you're doing this
research, is that somethingthat's ever been done before
anywhere else in the world.
Dr Cassie (16:23):
So there are a couple labs who have converted spaces
to try and make them plasticminimized. And there's a couple
over in Europe that wedefinitely have talked to the
people there to get ideas from.
But in terms of getting a spaceand then converting it
completely from scratch, like sowe put in new walls and roof and
flooring and all this type ofthing. As far as we know, this
(16:43):
is the first time that's beendone to this extent where we are
really minimizing any vinylflooring or any paints that
might have little polyethylenemicroplastics or anything in
them off the walls. And yeah, soto this extent, to our knowledge
is the first time that this hasbeen done.
Stephen Stockwell (17:04):
So there is plastic in the air around us, we
store food and water in plastic,I am wearing something with
plastic in it pretty much allthe time. And it feels like from
what we already know about therisks. It's not going to end
well. But I'm a silver liningcynic, I expect the worst and
hope for the best. And if allthings go well, at the UQ, a
(17:25):
Minderoo plastics lab, we canactually answer some of these
bigger questions about whatnanoplastics actually do to us.
Professor Sarah Dunlop (17:32):
We have to have hope. And we know what
to do. So I think there are alot of very bright minds out
there. And our children willsurely demand differently. We
cannot leave them with apolluted planet.
Stephen Stockwell (17:48):
How How worried? Do you think I should
be at the moment? How worriedare you right now?
Professor Sarah Dunlop (17:54):
Well, I think silver lining cynic is, is
it's a good good way of thinkingof it. I am concerned that you
can't be so concerned that itabsolutely freezes you. We all
need to realize that this is aplanetary threat, and pull
together in order to solve it. Idon't have all the answers. What
I do know is that by gettingtogether and working together,
(18:15):
we will come up with the answersand we'll make them happen.
Because Steven we have to wecannot fail. We just cannot
Stephen Stockwell (18:26):
I guess if Sarah has hope I'll just keep
enjoying this overcast beach andwait for the sun to come out.
Make sure you follow Doom scrollremedy and your favorite podcast
app so you can join me as wefigure out what to do if someone
(18:46):
you love is caught up in aconspiracy theory. We'll also
unpack the feeling you get whenthe existential dread gets the
better of you.
Unknown (18:53):
When we experience anxiety. It's usually a
situation that has caused us tofeel vulnerable or exposed. And
a sense of stress sort of cancome over somebody so they feel
a sense of fear that initiatesthis circuit of physiological
changes and then the whole bodyresponds.
Stephen Stockwell (19:12):
Doomscroll remedy is a podcast from the
University of Queensland. It'sproduced by deadset studios.
It's hosted by me StevenStockwell, produced by Grace
Pashley the executive produceris Rachel fountain. The sound
design is by Chrissy multiarchto consulting producer Zoe
MacDonald and commissioningeditor Greta uses
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