April 19, 2022 • 24 mins
“I don't think anyone really wakes up one day, gasping for breath and thinking everyone else is a lizard.”
Like Molly, you probably know someone who has tried to convince you that vaccines are full of mind-controlling nanobots, or that 5G towers are really being used to brainwash us.
Maybe you’ve even heard some that actually make you stop and think: like, maybe something supernatural is going on in the Bermuda Triangle?
A lot of people have lost faith in traditional institutions of power and are searching for answers that make sense of an often out-of-control world, even if those answers don’t make much sense either.
The conversation around conspiracy theories – and the people who believe in them – quickly becomes an ‘us and them’ joke, full of eye rolls and unhelpful arguments.
We’re trying to cut a path to a time before the conspiracy memes and comment threads to understand why this is happening, and what you can do to keep the conversation open.
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Doomscroll Remedy is a University of Queensland podcast, produced by Deadset Studios.
Hosted by Stephen Stockwell. Produced by Grace Pashley, Krissy Miltiadou and Rachel Fountain at Deadset Studios, in partnership with consulting producer Zoe McDonald and commissioning editor Greta Usasz at The University of Queensland.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Molly (00:09):
The first one that I was really like, that's not reality
with a conspiracy theory aboutsomething to do with an island
owned by the American governmentthat's not on the map that they
control the weather from. Andit's something to do with
getting back in Japan for PearlHarbor. And there's a reason
that Japan doesn't have anagricultural industry like it
(00:30):
used to. And it's because all ofthe weather is being controlled
by the US government fromsomewhere. And in reality, it's
like, well, that's calledClimate Change. There's like the
reason that Japan keeps havingso many bad weather events.
That's climate change. And thatis a real problem. Like we can
talk about that. But it's not, Ican't talk about that if the
basis of that is grounded inlike this staunch belief that
(00:53):
there's a hidden island like,yeah, it becomes very, very
difficult to talk to someonewhen so many of these things
that you do want to talk aboutare actually these massive,
these really big problems, liketheir social problems and their
environmental problems. But theangle that they're being kind of
approach from is unbelievable.
Stephen Stockwell (01:12):
Unbelievable, and kind of confusing, but not a
lot makes sense. When you startdiving into the world of
conspiracy theories. That secretwhether Ireland is a new one to
me, maybe you too, but by now,you've probably had someone an
aunt or an old friend from highschool posting on Facebook about
things like chemtrails, and 5gtowers. Maybe you even heard
some that actually make you stopand think like, Is my phone
(01:35):
really eavesdropping on myconversations? Fake News,
misinformation, disinformation,from genuine conspiracies to the
purely theoretical ones. There'sa lot of people who've lost
faith in traditionalinstitutions of power and a
searching for answers that makesense to them. Even if they
don't make sense, full stop.
Molly, who's telling this storyhas some ideas about how we got
(01:56):
here, which, if I'm honest,aren't as exciting as I'd hoped.
Molly (02:02):
I don't think anyone really wakes up one day, like
gasping for breath and thinkingeveryone else's elicit.
Stephen Stockwell (02:09):
We all want to know why people believe in
conspiracy theories. And we'lldig into that later. But also
want to know what it's like forpeople like Molly standing on
the sidelines. Is there anythingthat she can do? I'm Steven
Stockwell. And this is Doomscroll remedy, a podcast from
the University of Queensland,where we spend time with the
people living through theexistential threats that keep us
(02:30):
up at night, and the peopletrying to solve them. We're
unpacking the big questionsabout how the planet humans
ended up like this. Not with thegoal of fixing them, we're not
wizards, but in the hope that wecan slow down enough to
understand these big problemsswirling throughout feeds. The
(02:50):
sort of story that Molly istelling about a person that she
loves becoming more and moreentangled in conspiracy theories
is not uncommon. Molly's familywould often talk politics, and
for the most part, they'vealways been on the same page.
But gradually, conversationswith their brother started to
change.
Molly (03:07):
I think it always starts with like a general
disenfranchisement and thegeneral mistrust of hierarchy
and of the government and, youknow, power structures, then at
some point you having you findyourself having an argument
about 5g, or you find yourselfhaving an argument about
something, and it's like itstops making sense,
Stephen Stockwell (03:26):
this story gets pretty personal. So we
asked Molly, if she wanted tochange her name. She didn't. But
she did want to change herbrother's name. So Molly, blank
slate, any name in the world,
Molly (03:36):
I always wished he was called Sam told me that Sam, he
would be 31. He doesn't live inthe country. But in the years
since he's moved overseas, he'sbecome very interested in
conspiracy theories. From what Iwould consider conspiracy
theories, what he considers avery emotional reality.
Stephen Stockwell (03:56):
Do you worry about Sam? Oh, constantly?
Molly (03:59):
Yeah, all of the time.
What about, I worry that he'smaybe making his own life
harder. I worried that he'sisolating himself, I worried
that he is losing community andgaining a lot of say, the wrong
type of community that thecommunity that he is gaining is
non physical. And it's not it'sonline. And it's, in some ways
(04:21):
that makes it purelytheoretical. And that's not a
support system. And I think thatthat's like, as we're seeing
more and more something that weneed, like a physical and
presence support system. And Ithink that that's what I worry
the most about is that he'sisolating,
Stephen Stockwell (04:36):
how does that kind of influence the way that
you you talk to him when I havethe
Molly (04:40):
emotional strength to talk about these things as well?
Lots of it sometimes does comedown to me just trying to
protect my own well being and mymental well being because it's
can be incredibly stressful. AndI'm not always up for it, which
I think is fair enough. Andthat's a long process. I think
to give yourself the space tojust not engage with it for a
(05:03):
while, but when I do talk to himabout it, I think I try to keep
in mind that he is just someonewho is looking for a
conversation, like he's lookingto be validated. And it comes
from a place ofdisenfranchisement. And I think
that the things that I try tokeep in mind, like I do choose
my relationship over being rightor over winning an argument or
(05:26):
over changing someone's mind,because at the end of the day,
like, he doesn't want his mindchange, and he doesn't want what
I consider help. So I think thatwhen I talk to him, I just, I
don't know, I just try, try tokeep every one of my mind. You
know, don't argue too much. Justsay things like, what's
(05:48):
interesting when you hear that,or, and just kind of let him run
his writings, wheels until he'ssick of talking about it. And I
can ask him, How long had thisbeen?
Stephen Stockwell (05:58):
What do you think he's looking for with
these?
Molly (06:01):
That's an incredibly good question. I would love to know,
I think he's looking for areality that makes sense to him.
Maybe I think he's looking forsomething that he can
understand. Like, I think thathe's maybe looking for something
that makes him feel like he hasa place or has like people
(06:23):
around him who have the samebeliefs as him. I think he's
just looking for connection. Ithink people are just looking
for connection and for communityin to be people who feel
misunderstood. Just want to feelunderstood at the end of the
day, isn't that it? Like? Ithink that that's all I can see
out of it. Like, I don't thinkthat he's looking to start a
fight with me. And I think don'tthink he's looking for people to
(06:45):
call him crazy. Certainly not,you know,
Stephen Stockwell (06:51):
trying to find out what sends people
towards these theories, or whatmakes the theories attractive in
the first place, is one of themillion dollar questions here.
So we asked Glenda getting aprofessor of social psychology
at the University of Queensland,to help us understand why some
people get caught up in thesetheories.
Glenda (07:07):
For a long time, when we tried to answer that question,
we're very much focusing on whatkind of people what is the
personality that they actuallybelieve in these conspiracy
theories. But we actually sortof start to move away from that.
And it's much more that we'retrying to look at it, what are
the type of context when peoplestart to be start to gravitate
(07:29):
towards conspiracy theories,because then you can start to
understand what they're lookingfor, right. And in our own work,
we start to focus very much on,you know, things happen in our
world that require anexplanation. And sometimes
they're these massive thingshappening that seem really
illogical, right? How can thisever happen? And so then we
(07:51):
start to be quite prone toconspiracy theories, right? It
cannot just be an accident, itneeds to be that there is
someone behind this some peoplewho actually plot together and
preferably, you know, verypowerful people, people that we
don't trust. That's a when, whenthat is actually happening.
That's when I guess we're we'reall quite sort of, you know,
(08:15):
open to accept the validity ofconspiracy explanations.
Stephen Stockwell (08:19):
So it's like an explanation thing. This is
why this happened.
Glenda (08:23):
Exactly. Yes. I mean, you know, whenever we go through
the social world, we always lookfor explanations. And sometimes
we often also look at otherpeople to help us, you know, why
is this happening? And we lookfor validation information of
our beliefs. And sometimesthere's also authorities who
(08:44):
tell us well, you know, officialaccounts, why things are
happening. And so I'm quiteinterested in when it is
actually that we're no longeraccepting these official
accounts for why 911 happens, orCOVID What's What's the
background? But when we actuallystart to reject those and say,
no, no, actually, I know really,what's happening, something
(09:04):
quite different is happening,much more sinister. And they
want us to believe this thing.
But you know, I'm clever enoughto see through dad's
Stephen Stockwell (09:14):
basically, the whole world is complicated,
and messy, and sometimes easyanswers, even if they're wrong,
just make things simpler tounderstand or even help you make
sense of it all. I've neverreally followed this path. I
kind of like a complicated, butI do love a good story. So when
we started thinking of whetherthere are any conspiracy
theories that I believe in, ormaybe more accurately, just sort
(09:36):
of entertain, I did manage toland on one. The last cosmonauts
This is the theory that duringthe space race in the 50s, and
60s, the former Soviet Unioncovered up the deaths of
cosmonauts, Russian astronautsthat were lost in space. I was
reminded about this in a Redditthread a few weeks ago. It was
also debunked in the samethread. But it did make me think
(09:56):
about why I was drawn to it andI realized that it was so easy
to believe, because it reflectedthe secrecy that I expected of
the Soviet Union. And thestereotype that their space
program wasn't as advanced orthey weren't as skilled as the
West. It just reinforced anestablished worldview and
stereotypes that I already held.
Glenda (10:16):
It's very much driven by stereotypes that we have and
where we expect it to happen.
But it gets also what, what isoften the case here, I mean,
especially the example you'regiven is, it is a mystery,
right? What happened to theseguys, and you have a government
that is covering it up, right,or is not really giving you all
the information that they have.
(10:39):
So there is something thatremains to be explained. And it
makes me think very much ofwhile you were talking, I was
thinking of the MalaysianAirlines that disappeared. And
the days after, I mean, justlooking on Twitter was full with
conspiracy theories. So the morepeople that seem to believe it,
well, maybe there is some truthto it. It's an interesting thing
(11:00):
that starts to have its ownlife.
Stephen Stockwell (11:03):
One thing that people who follow these
theories have in common isusually a starting point where
they distrust governments,powerful people, institutions,
etc. which can be quite useful.
I mean, the entire profession ofjournalism is based on
questioning authority. Now thatI think about it, actually,
often journalists are trying toon Earth conspiracies, you see
conspiracies are real. It's thetheoretical part, that makes it
(11:25):
blurry.
Glenda (11:28):
Conspiracies happen, right? Where powerful people,
small groups of them will cometogether, and they're hiding
their actions from the public,right? You know, think even of
the cigarette lobby lobby. Foryears, they were actually very
successful in withholdinginformation from the public,
(11:49):
that smoking is bad for you,right? So this happens, a
conspiracy theory is basically ahypothesis that people may have
that this is happening. But it'san untested hypothesis. And so
this is where the debate iscoming from, where conspiracy
theories, it's, some people willsay, Yep, okay, I believe it, I
(12:10):
think we have enough evidence tosay that this is confirmed, this
is a valid theory, whereasothers will reject them. So it's
all about the debate. Is thistrue? Or is it not true
Stephen Stockwell (12:22):
when you're talking about people who don't
have that trust and facing thegovernment? Like, was there? Is
there a kind of suspension ofbelief a part of that where they
got a Well, obviously, they'renot acting in our best interest.
But they're also smart enough tobe to try and hide this from us.
Like, what what happened? What'shappening there?
Glenda (12:34):
My colleague, Matthew Hornsey, makes this point to
where he says there is somethingthere, that's not quite logical,
right? On the one hand, youdon't believe the government to
be able to govern us and they'renot competence. At the same
time. This is belief that socompetent, to plot all of these
(12:54):
very complex events. And notonly dad that they execute them
well, and I also get away withit, because no one really finds
out except me who really sort ofsort of unraveled sets, right,
and finds little pieces ofevidence that this happened to
often people who are really intoit, they combined different
(13:16):
conspiracy theories that arelogically in coherence. So just
to give an example, we find thatpeople who believe that Princess
Diana was murdered by Mo five,they're also more likely to
believe in a conspiracy to Dianaactually escaped and she's
(13:38):
living on an uninhabited islandsomewhere far away from the
press. So she cannot be dead andalive at the same moments. But
still, in the mind of someonewho's really into conspiracy
theories, that sort of apparentcontradiction doesn't pop up or
even with bin Laden, exactly thesame thing that the conspiracy
(13:59):
theories said Bin Laden died 10years before he actually did.
But people who believe that arealso more likely to believe that
he was assassinated by theAmerican forces when he was so
it's, it's an interesting one.
You know, there's no logic toany of this.
Stephen Stockwell (14:20):
I think that's why it feels so easy to
just pile on conspiracytheorists and not take them
seriously at all. Like, where'sthe edge of the world? If the
world isn't round?
Molly (14:29):
Birds aren't real. That's a good one. Which Have you ever
seen a bird up class?
Stephen Stockwell (14:34):
One of my favorites is that Australia's
not real. It's actually anisland of Florida. So if you're
flying to Australia, fromAmerica, you actually fly around
in circles for a bit. And thenyou land at a place like an
island or Florida or somethinglike that. And everyone's a paid
actor.
Molly (14:48):
I've got some questions about this. Ultimately, the chip
that put in my vaccine,
Stephen Stockwell (14:51):
we started turning the whole thing into a
job, which Molly actually endedup calling us on.
Molly (14:56):
Isn't this conversation that you and I are having now?
Interesting, because this is thecultural understanding that we
have of conspiracy theories and,like you and I are obviously
interested in it and concernedabout it, but we're not blame
free, because we're still jokingabout it. And we still think
it's kind of funny. And this islike, this is part of the
(15:16):
attitude towards it. And like,obviously, I'm not saying that
we shouldn't laugh about it.
It's very funny sometimes. But Ido think it's interesting that
like, even when we're like,trying to look very critically
at it, and trying to lookclosely and deeply at it, it's
still like a little bit of ajoke to us when this is like,
it's still a bit of a joke tome. And this is someone who I
love endlessly. And this is hisreality. And I'm still like, so
(15:37):
I think it would be veryinteresting for me to know like,
what, what can be done on like alarger level for us to make
people feel more included andnot feel like the butt of the
joke?
Stephen Stockwell (15:57):
What's the risk of dismissing people who
believe in conspiracy theories?
Is there like an inherently kindof other ring way of labeling
people or isolating people whowe who we kind of in inverted
commas considered conspiracytheorists?
Glenda (16:10):
Yeah, certainly. I mean, many people will experience
that, if you have a closefriends family member who
becomes really goes down rabbithole, that, yeah, their
relationships is severelydamaged. What can you do? I
mean, what I guess I instinct isto start to argue and to say,
(16:31):
look, you know, have you try andreason with them provide
explanations why they cannot beright. i The the initial
evidence suggests that that isactually counterproductive,
because most conspiracytheories, they have thought
about the topic much more thanmany of us have, who don't have
a conspiracy theory. So there'sno information that you can give
(16:54):
them that they haven't alwaysalready come across. And the
other thing is, of course, thatif you strongly take the side of
the official version, then youbecome identified with the
official version, andpotentially a threat, right?
You're the photo conspiracytheorist in their minds, you
become the danger itself, whichcan lead, you know, they
(17:18):
alienate you, and they don'twant to share all the
information with you. So theyclose themselves off. And so it
becomes very much that theystart to drift into this world
of finding other like mindedindividuals hanging out with
them. And they only provide themwith validation and affirmation.
But it also means that you getpolarization right further away
(17:40):
from those who try and pull themback. And the call of those who
actually say, Yeah, you know, webelieve in these things, just
like you do, that that callbecomes stronger. So that's,
that's a very dangerous path.
And at the moment, actually, weknow very little about how to
break that.
Stephen Stockwell (17:59):
Yeah, right.
So at the moment, we're probablynot dealing with this in the
right way.
Glenda (18:04):
I agree. I don't think we're dealing with it in the
right way, we're, we're still onthe path of just provide them
with information. Even with thevaccination campaigns, it is
very much about just providepeople with information about
why it's so important to getvaccinated. And not enough
trying to stand in the shoes ofthose who believe in these
(18:25):
conspiracy theories and ask thequestion, why would they believe
this? Why is this so compellingfor them. And once you actually
understand that, then you mightalso work a bit more with that,
to counter it.
Stephen Stockwell (18:38):
I always think about how hard trust is to
build and how easy it is tolose. So turning that around is
really slow going, and I thinkwill probably take us longer
than we've got. But is thereactually a cure for conspiracy
theories? Whenever I hear peopleargue back, it's like they knock
off one head into MMA seem topop up in the same place. So how
do they die?
Glenda (18:58):
I think that a lot of conspiracy theories have certain
predictions for the future. Andright, so think of all of those
doomsday cults, and we knowhistorically, that it's very
interesting to study them.
Because when the day comes, thatthe world is going to, you know,
explode, but you know, ourlittle cult is going to be
(19:20):
picked up by a spaceship. Andwhen that time comes, and it
doesn't happen, how do you thenwhat do you do with that, right?
You've, you've had your wholesort of these people truly
believe that the world is comingto an ends and that they're the
few ones who are going to besaved. When that doesn't happen.
What do you do? Do you reviseyour theory? Or do you just come
(19:42):
up with more theories and it isthe ladder that actually
typically happens becausethere's too much at stake.
Right? If you have to acceptthat all of this thing that I'm
so fully in this this group andmy world view that I have that
that's complete rubbish. Well,that's a very threatening
(20:05):
proposition. So it's often morethat people are more keen to try
and save the world view, thenreally to challenge it, if you
have to admit, say, after yearsand years of going down the
rabbit holes, that, well, maybeI was wrong, that's such a
threatening thing, to your selfesteem to who you are, because
(20:26):
that people don't resist it. Andif they do, they often get very
isolated, because you no longerhave that social support from
that group of other people whobelieve in this conspiracy
theories. And because for manyof them, also, if they've been
in it for years, there, theyhave cut ties with families
friends before that period. Soit's, it can be a very isolating
(20:50):
experience. And you're left withall of these events that that's,
that happens, and you stilldon't know why they happened.
Stephen Stockwell (20:59):
I'd never really put myself in their shoes
before I thought about whatmight attract people how they
thought about and justifiedthese theories, but never how
much a part of them was, whichkind of changes how I'd approach
someone, especially someoneclose. Let's say there's someone
who believes George Bush isbehind 911, maybe an arm of
yours, what else is going on intheir life? How close were you
(21:19):
before you were just laughreacting to all their Facebook
posts? I wanted to know how youcould get back to a time before
the conspiracy memes and theobnoxious the unhelpful comment
threads.
Glenda (21:30):
Tonight about challenging, it's not about
starting to win the argument orproving them wrong. It is about
maintaining the relationship.
And one thing that also comes tomind is that there are some
researchers now that you couldcall it an inoculation approach,
right? Where you get small dosesof information that might
challenge conspiracy theory, butonly very small doses, you
(21:53):
actually just plant the seed intheir minds as something that
doesn't quite stack up. So Iliked that approach. Because it
is the soft approach that allowsyou to maintain the relationship
that helps people to work outfor themselves. But the truth
this
Stephen Stockwell (22:12):
do you think your brother will ever change?
Molly (22:15):
No. And I don't think he wants to, like I think to
change, you want to change?
Changing is incrediblydifficult, and it takes a
lifetime. And I don't think thathe wants to change. And I think
that that's actually okay. Like,I think that he thinks, thinks
believes feels that he knows thetruth. And he feels righteous,
He feels good. He feels good.
When he's telling you about it.
He feels like he's helping youfeel like he's saving you. Even
(22:37):
in some small way. I think hefeels like he understands
something and that he belongs tosomething bigger than just
himself and that the world thatabsolutely makes no sense
whatsoever to him maybe isn't asit seems. And that's a good
thing. So I actually don't thinkthat pressuring someone to
change, like, what's it going todo for us? What's it gonna do
(22:59):
for them other than, you know, Ithink we're maybe the ones who
need to change.
Stephen Stockwell (23:10):
Maybe, just maybe those small drops will add
up over time. I kind of like Samat this point. So I hope they
do. But look, maybe they won't.
At the very least though, byprioritizing the relationship,
Molly can still pick up thephone to her brother and ask him
how the weather is.
(23:35):
Make sure you follow Doom scrollremedy and your favorite podcast
app so you can join us as wedive into other existential
threats like just how badplastics are forests, or
bushfires and climate change,we may well see some more
extreme fires, it's it'sprobably fair to deduce that
we're likely to see morefrequent thunderstorms
associated with those fires thatpresent the associated risks
(23:56):
that we've spoken about. But alot of that will depend on on
how our climate changes howthese natural climate cycles
interact with each other, butalso how they respond to global
warming.
Doom squirrel remedy is apodcast from the University of
Queensland. It's produced bydeadset studios, hosted by me
Steven Stockwell, produced byGrace Pashley executive producer
(24:19):
is Rachel fountain sounddesigned by Chrissy multi rd
consulting producer ZoeMcDonald, commissioning editor
Greta use S
The first one that I was really like, that's not reality
with a conspiracy theory aboutsomething to do with an island
owned by the American governmentthat's not on the map that they
control the weather from. Andit's something to do with
getting back in Japan for PearlHarbor. And there's a reason
that Japan doesn't have anagricultural industry like it
(00:30):
used to. And it's because all ofthe weather is being controlled
by the US government fromsomewhere. And in reality, it's
like, well, that's calledClimate Change. There's like the
reason that Japan keeps havingso many bad weather events.
That's climate change. And thatis a real problem. Like we can
talk about that. But it's not, Ican't talk about that if the
basis of that is grounded inlike this staunch belief that
(00:53):
there's a hidden island like,yeah, it becomes very, very
difficult to talk to someonewhen so many of these things
that you do want to talk aboutare actually these massive,
these really big problems, liketheir social problems and their
environmental problems. But theangle that they're being kind of
approach from is unbelievable.
Stephen Stockwell (01:12):
Unbelievable, and kind of confusing, but not a
lot makes sense. When you startdiving into the world of
conspiracy theories. That secretwhether Ireland is a new one to
me, maybe you too, but by now,you've probably had someone an
aunt or an old friend from highschool posting on Facebook about
things like chemtrails, and 5gtowers. Maybe you even heard
some that actually make you stopand think like, Is my phone
(01:35):
really eavesdropping on myconversations? Fake News,
misinformation, disinformation,from genuine conspiracies to the
purely theoretical ones. There'sa lot of people who've lost
faith in traditionalinstitutions of power and a
searching for answers that makesense to them. Even if they
don't make sense, full stop.
Molly, who's telling this storyhas some ideas about how we got
(01:56):
here, which, if I'm honest,aren't as exciting as I'd hoped.
Molly (02:02):
I don't think anyone really wakes up one day, like
gasping for breath and thinkingeveryone else's elicit.
Stephen Stockwell (02:09):
We all want to know why people believe in
conspiracy theories. And we'lldig into that later. But also
want to know what it's like forpeople like Molly standing on
the sidelines. Is there anythingthat she can do? I'm Steven
Stockwell. And this is Doomscroll remedy, a podcast from
the University of Queensland,where we spend time with the
people living through theexistential threats that keep us
(02:30):
up at night, and the peopletrying to solve them. We're
unpacking the big questionsabout how the planet humans
ended up like this. Not with thegoal of fixing them, we're not
wizards, but in the hope that wecan slow down enough to
understand these big problemsswirling throughout feeds. The
(02:50):
sort of story that Molly istelling about a person that she
loves becoming more and moreentangled in conspiracy theories
is not uncommon. Molly's familywould often talk politics, and
for the most part, they'vealways been on the same page.
But gradually, conversationswith their brother started to
change.
Molly (03:07):
I think it always starts with like a general
disenfranchisement and thegeneral mistrust of hierarchy
and of the government and, youknow, power structures, then at
some point you having you findyourself having an argument
about 5g, or you find yourselfhaving an argument about
something, and it's like itstops making sense,
Stephen Stockwell (03:26):
this story gets pretty personal. So we
asked Molly, if she wanted tochange her name. She didn't. But
she did want to change herbrother's name. So Molly, blank
slate, any name in the world,
Molly (03:36):
I always wished he was called Sam told me that Sam, he
would be 31. He doesn't live inthe country. But in the years
since he's moved overseas, he'sbecome very interested in
conspiracy theories. From what Iwould consider conspiracy
theories, what he considers avery emotional reality.
Stephen Stockwell (03:56):
Do you worry about Sam? Oh, constantly?
Molly (03:59):
Yeah, all of the time.
What about, I worry that he'smaybe making his own life
harder. I worried that he'sisolating himself, I worried
that he is losing community andgaining a lot of say, the wrong
type of community that thecommunity that he is gaining is
non physical. And it's not it'sonline. And it's, in some ways
(04:21):
that makes it purelytheoretical. And that's not a
support system. And I think thatthat's like, as we're seeing
more and more something that weneed, like a physical and
presence support system. And Ithink that that's what I worry
the most about is that he'sisolating,
Stephen Stockwell (04:36):
how does that kind of influence the way that
you you talk to him when I havethe
Molly (04:40):
emotional strength to talk about these things as well?
Lots of it sometimes does comedown to me just trying to
protect my own well being and mymental well being because it's
can be incredibly stressful. AndI'm not always up for it, which
I think is fair enough. Andthat's a long process. I think
to give yourself the space tojust not engage with it for a
(05:03):
while, but when I do talk to himabout it, I think I try to keep
in mind that he is just someonewho is looking for a
conversation, like he's lookingto be validated. And it comes
from a place ofdisenfranchisement. And I think
that the things that I try tokeep in mind, like I do choose
my relationship over being rightor over winning an argument or
(05:26):
over changing someone's mind,because at the end of the day,
like, he doesn't want his mindchange, and he doesn't want what
I consider help. So I think thatwhen I talk to him, I just, I
don't know, I just try, try tokeep every one of my mind. You
know, don't argue too much. Justsay things like, what's
(05:48):
interesting when you hear that,or, and just kind of let him run
his writings, wheels until he'ssick of talking about it. And I
can ask him, How long had thisbeen?
Stephen Stockwell (05:58):
What do you think he's looking for with
these?
Molly (06:01):
That's an incredibly good question. I would love to know,
I think he's looking for areality that makes sense to him.
Maybe I think he's looking forsomething that he can
understand. Like, I think thathe's maybe looking for something
that makes him feel like he hasa place or has like people
(06:23):
around him who have the samebeliefs as him. I think he's
just looking for connection. Ithink people are just looking
for connection and for communityin to be people who feel
misunderstood. Just want to feelunderstood at the end of the
day, isn't that it? Like? Ithink that that's all I can see
out of it. Like, I don't thinkthat he's looking to start a
fight with me. And I think don'tthink he's looking for people to
(06:45):
call him crazy. Certainly not,you know,
Stephen Stockwell (06:51):
trying to find out what sends people
towards these theories, or whatmakes the theories attractive in
the first place, is one of themillion dollar questions here.
So we asked Glenda getting aprofessor of social psychology
at the University of Queensland,to help us understand why some
people get caught up in thesetheories.
Glenda (07:07):
For a long time, when we tried to answer that question,
we're very much focusing on whatkind of people what is the
personality that they actuallybelieve in these conspiracy
theories. But we actually sortof start to move away from that.
And it's much more that we'retrying to look at it, what are
the type of context when peoplestart to be start to gravitate
(07:29):
towards conspiracy theories,because then you can start to
understand what they're lookingfor, right. And in our own work,
we start to focus very much on,you know, things happen in our
world that require anexplanation. And sometimes
they're these massive thingshappening that seem really
illogical, right? How can thisever happen? And so then we
(07:51):
start to be quite prone toconspiracy theories, right? It
cannot just be an accident, itneeds to be that there is
someone behind this some peoplewho actually plot together and
preferably, you know, verypowerful people, people that we
don't trust. That's a when, whenthat is actually happening.
That's when I guess we're we'reall quite sort of, you know,
(08:15):
open to accept the validity ofconspiracy explanations.
Stephen Stockwell (08:19):
So it's like an explanation thing. This is
why this happened.
Glenda (08:23):
Exactly. Yes. I mean, you know, whenever we go through
the social world, we always lookfor explanations. And sometimes
we often also look at otherpeople to help us, you know, why
is this happening? And we lookfor validation information of
our beliefs. And sometimesthere's also authorities who
(08:44):
tell us well, you know, officialaccounts, why things are
happening. And so I'm quiteinterested in when it is
actually that we're no longeraccepting these official
accounts for why 911 happens, orCOVID What's What's the
background? But when we actuallystart to reject those and say,
no, no, actually, I know really,what's happening, something
(09:04):
quite different is happening,much more sinister. And they
want us to believe this thing.
But you know, I'm clever enoughto see through dad's
Stephen Stockwell (09:14):
basically, the whole world is complicated,
and messy, and sometimes easyanswers, even if they're wrong,
just make things simpler tounderstand or even help you make
sense of it all. I've neverreally followed this path. I
kind of like a complicated, butI do love a good story. So when
we started thinking of whetherthere are any conspiracy
theories that I believe in, ormaybe more accurately, just sort
(09:36):
of entertain, I did manage toland on one. The last cosmonauts
This is the theory that duringthe space race in the 50s, and
60s, the former Soviet Unioncovered up the deaths of
cosmonauts, Russian astronautsthat were lost in space. I was
reminded about this in a Redditthread a few weeks ago. It was
also debunked in the samethread. But it did make me think
(09:56):
about why I was drawn to it andI realized that it was so easy
to believe, because it reflectedthe secrecy that I expected of
the Soviet Union. And thestereotype that their space
program wasn't as advanced orthey weren't as skilled as the
West. It just reinforced anestablished worldview and
stereotypes that I already held.
Glenda (10:16):
It's very much driven by stereotypes that we have and
where we expect it to happen.
But it gets also what, what isoften the case here, I mean,
especially the example you'regiven is, it is a mystery,
right? What happened to theseguys, and you have a government
that is covering it up, right,or is not really giving you all
the information that they have.
(10:39):
So there is something thatremains to be explained. And it
makes me think very much ofwhile you were talking, I was
thinking of the MalaysianAirlines that disappeared. And
the days after, I mean, justlooking on Twitter was full with
conspiracy theories. So the morepeople that seem to believe it,
well, maybe there is some truthto it. It's an interesting thing
(11:00):
that starts to have its ownlife.
Stephen Stockwell (11:03):
One thing that people who follow these
theories have in common isusually a starting point where
they distrust governments,powerful people, institutions,
etc. which can be quite useful.
I mean, the entire profession ofjournalism is based on
questioning authority. Now thatI think about it, actually,
often journalists are trying toon Earth conspiracies, you see
conspiracies are real. It's thetheoretical part, that makes it
(11:25):
blurry.
Glenda (11:28):
Conspiracies happen, right? Where powerful people,
small groups of them will cometogether, and they're hiding
their actions from the public,right? You know, think even of
the cigarette lobby lobby. Foryears, they were actually very
successful in withholdinginformation from the public,
(11:49):
that smoking is bad for you,right? So this happens, a
conspiracy theory is basically ahypothesis that people may have
that this is happening. But it'san untested hypothesis. And so
this is where the debate iscoming from, where conspiracy
theories, it's, some people willsay, Yep, okay, I believe it, I
(12:10):
think we have enough evidence tosay that this is confirmed, this
is a valid theory, whereasothers will reject them. So it's
all about the debate. Is thistrue? Or is it not true
Stephen Stockwell (12:22):
when you're talking about people who don't
have that trust and facing thegovernment? Like, was there? Is
there a kind of suspension ofbelief a part of that where they
got a Well, obviously, they'renot acting in our best interest.
But they're also smart enough tobe to try and hide this from us.
Like, what what happened? What'shappening there?
Glenda (12:34):
My colleague, Matthew Hornsey, makes this point to
where he says there is somethingthere, that's not quite logical,
right? On the one hand, youdon't believe the government to
be able to govern us and they'renot competence. At the same
time. This is belief that socompetent, to plot all of these
(12:54):
very complex events. And notonly dad that they execute them
well, and I also get away withit, because no one really finds
out except me who really sort ofsort of unraveled sets, right,
and finds little pieces ofevidence that this happened to
often people who are really intoit, they combined different
(13:16):
conspiracy theories that arelogically in coherence. So just
to give an example, we find thatpeople who believe that Princess
Diana was murdered by Mo five,they're also more likely to
believe in a conspiracy to Dianaactually escaped and she's
(13:38):
living on an uninhabited islandsomewhere far away from the
press. So she cannot be dead andalive at the same moments. But
still, in the mind of someonewho's really into conspiracy
theories, that sort of apparentcontradiction doesn't pop up or
even with bin Laden, exactly thesame thing that the conspiracy
(13:59):
theories said Bin Laden died 10years before he actually did.
But people who believe that arealso more likely to believe that
he was assassinated by theAmerican forces when he was so
it's, it's an interesting one.
You know, there's no logic toany of this.
Stephen Stockwell (14:20):
I think that's why it feels so easy to
just pile on conspiracytheorists and not take them
seriously at all. Like, where'sthe edge of the world? If the
world isn't round?
Molly (14:29):
Birds aren't real. That's a good one. Which Have you ever
seen a bird up class?
Stephen Stockwell (14:34):
One of my favorites is that Australia's
not real. It's actually anisland of Florida. So if you're
flying to Australia, fromAmerica, you actually fly around
in circles for a bit. And thenyou land at a place like an
island or Florida or somethinglike that. And everyone's a paid
actor.
Molly (14:48):
I've got some questions about this. Ultimately, the chip
that put in my vaccine,
Stephen Stockwell (14:51):
we started turning the whole thing into a
job, which Molly actually endedup calling us on.
Molly (14:56):
Isn't this conversation that you and I are having now?
Interesting, because this is thecultural understanding that we
have of conspiracy theories and,like you and I are obviously
interested in it and concernedabout it, but we're not blame
free, because we're still jokingabout it. And we still think
it's kind of funny. And this islike, this is part of the
(15:16):
attitude towards it. And like,obviously, I'm not saying that
we shouldn't laugh about it.
It's very funny sometimes. But Ido think it's interesting that
like, even when we're like,trying to look very critically
at it, and trying to lookclosely and deeply at it, it's
still like a little bit of ajoke to us when this is like,
it's still a bit of a joke tome. And this is someone who I
love endlessly. And this is hisreality. And I'm still like, so
(15:37):
I think it would be veryinteresting for me to know like,
what, what can be done on like alarger level for us to make
people feel more included andnot feel like the butt of the
joke?
Stephen Stockwell (15:57):
What's the risk of dismissing people who
believe in conspiracy theories?
Is there like an inherently kindof other ring way of labeling
people or isolating people whowe who we kind of in inverted
commas considered conspiracytheorists?
Glenda (16:10):
Yeah, certainly. I mean, many people will experience
that, if you have a closefriends family member who
becomes really goes down rabbithole, that, yeah, their
relationships is severelydamaged. What can you do? I
mean, what I guess I instinct isto start to argue and to say,
(16:31):
look, you know, have you try andreason with them provide
explanations why they cannot beright. i The the initial
evidence suggests that that isactually counterproductive,
because most conspiracytheories, they have thought
about the topic much more thanmany of us have, who don't have
a conspiracy theory. So there'sno information that you can give
(16:54):
them that they haven't alwaysalready come across. And the
other thing is, of course, thatif you strongly take the side of
the official version, then youbecome identified with the
official version, andpotentially a threat, right?
You're the photo conspiracytheorist in their minds, you
become the danger itself, whichcan lead, you know, they
(17:18):
alienate you, and they don'twant to share all the
information with you. So theyclose themselves off. And so it
becomes very much that theystart to drift into this world
of finding other like mindedindividuals hanging out with
them. And they only provide themwith validation and affirmation.
But it also means that you getpolarization right further away
(17:40):
from those who try and pull themback. And the call of those who
actually say, Yeah, you know, webelieve in these things, just
like you do, that that callbecomes stronger. So that's,
that's a very dangerous path.
And at the moment, actually, weknow very little about how to
break that.
Stephen Stockwell (17:59):
Yeah, right.
So at the moment, we're probablynot dealing with this in the
right way.
Glenda (18:04):
I agree. I don't think we're dealing with it in the
right way, we're, we're still onthe path of just provide them
with information. Even with thevaccination campaigns, it is
very much about just providepeople with information about
why it's so important to getvaccinated. And not enough
trying to stand in the shoes ofthose who believe in these
(18:25):
conspiracy theories and ask thequestion, why would they believe
this? Why is this so compellingfor them. And once you actually
understand that, then you mightalso work a bit more with that,
to counter it.
Stephen Stockwell (18:38):
I always think about how hard trust is to
build and how easy it is tolose. So turning that around is
really slow going, and I thinkwill probably take us longer
than we've got. But is thereactually a cure for conspiracy
theories? Whenever I hear peopleargue back, it's like they knock
off one head into MMA seem topop up in the same place. So how
do they die?
Glenda (18:58):
I think that a lot of conspiracy theories have certain
predictions for the future. Andright, so think of all of those
doomsday cults, and we knowhistorically, that it's very
interesting to study them.
Because when the day comes, thatthe world is going to, you know,
explode, but you know, ourlittle cult is going to be
(19:20):
picked up by a spaceship. Andwhen that time comes, and it
doesn't happen, how do you thenwhat do you do with that, right?
You've, you've had your wholesort of these people truly
believe that the world is comingto an ends and that they're the
few ones who are going to besaved. When that doesn't happen.
What do you do? Do you reviseyour theory? Or do you just come
(19:42):
up with more theories and it isthe ladder that actually
typically happens becausethere's too much at stake.
Right? If you have to acceptthat all of this thing that I'm
so fully in this this group andmy world view that I have that
that's complete rubbish. Well,that's a very threatening
(20:05):
proposition. So it's often morethat people are more keen to try
and save the world view, thenreally to challenge it, if you
have to admit, say, after yearsand years of going down the
rabbit holes, that, well, maybeI was wrong, that's such a
threatening thing, to your selfesteem to who you are, because
(20:26):
that people don't resist it. Andif they do, they often get very
isolated, because you no longerhave that social support from
that group of other people whobelieve in this conspiracy
theories. And because for manyof them, also, if they've been
in it for years, there, theyhave cut ties with families
friends before that period. Soit's, it can be a very isolating
(20:50):
experience. And you're left withall of these events that that's,
that happens, and you stilldon't know why they happened.
Stephen Stockwell (20:59):
I'd never really put myself in their shoes
before I thought about whatmight attract people how they
thought about and justifiedthese theories, but never how
much a part of them was, whichkind of changes how I'd approach
someone, especially someoneclose. Let's say there's someone
who believes George Bush isbehind 911, maybe an arm of
yours, what else is going on intheir life? How close were you
(21:19):
before you were just laughreacting to all their Facebook
posts? I wanted to know how youcould get back to a time before
the conspiracy memes and theobnoxious the unhelpful comment
threads.
Glenda (21:30):
Tonight about challenging, it's not about
starting to win the argument orproving them wrong. It is about
maintaining the relationship.
And one thing that also comes tomind is that there are some
researchers now that you couldcall it an inoculation approach,
right? Where you get small dosesof information that might
challenge conspiracy theory, butonly very small doses, you
(21:53):
actually just plant the seed intheir minds as something that
doesn't quite stack up. So Iliked that approach. Because it
is the soft approach that allowsyou to maintain the relationship
that helps people to work outfor themselves. But the truth
this
Stephen Stockwell (22:12):
do you think your brother will ever change?
Molly (22:15):
No. And I don't think he wants to, like I think to
change, you want to change?
Changing is incrediblydifficult, and it takes a
lifetime. And I don't think thathe wants to change. And I think
that that's actually okay. Like,I think that he thinks, thinks
believes feels that he knows thetruth. And he feels righteous,
He feels good. He feels good.
When he's telling you about it.
He feels like he's helping youfeel like he's saving you. Even
(22:37):
in some small way. I think hefeels like he understands
something and that he belongs tosomething bigger than just
himself and that the world thatabsolutely makes no sense
whatsoever to him maybe isn't asit seems. And that's a good
thing. So I actually don't thinkthat pressuring someone to
change, like, what's it going todo for us? What's it gonna do
(22:59):
for them other than, you know, Ithink we're maybe the ones who
need to change.
Stephen Stockwell (23:10):
Maybe, just maybe those small drops will add
up over time. I kind of like Samat this point. So I hope they
do. But look, maybe they won't.
At the very least though, byprioritizing the relationship,
Molly can still pick up thephone to her brother and ask him
how the weather is.
(23:35):
Make sure you follow Doom scrollremedy and your favorite podcast
app so you can join us as wedive into other existential
threats like just how badplastics are forests, or
bushfires and climate change,we may well see some more
extreme fires, it's it'sprobably fair to deduce that
we're likely to see morefrequent thunderstorms
associated with those fires thatpresent the associated risks
(23:56):
that we've spoken about. But alot of that will depend on on
how our climate changes howthese natural climate cycles
interact with each other, butalso how they respond to global
warming.
Doom squirrel remedy is apodcast from the University of
Queensland. It's produced bydeadset studios, hosted by me
Steven Stockwell, produced byGrace Pashley executive producer
(24:19):
is Rachel fountain sounddesigned by Chrissy multi rd
consulting producer ZoeMcDonald, commissioning editor
Greta use S
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