May 4, 2025 • 36 mins
Probiotic pillows? Postbiotic skincare? Yogurt in your hair?! This week in the lab, Titi and Zakiya dig into the world of probiotics, prebiotics, and the microbiome with gastroenterologist and professor Dr. Roshini Raj. From gut health to glowing skin, Dr. Raj helps us separate the science from the marketing and decode whether these trendy bacteria really live up to the hype. Spoiler: fiber is still queen.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm TT and I'm Zakiah, and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
I saw this TikTok where people were taking a shot
(00:24):
of apple cider vinegar every morning to keep their stomach
on flat flat.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Ooh, that's a lot of ascid.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I am not that kind of scientist, so I have
no idea what that's supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I just feel like there are so many wellness trends
like that, and they're just things that make you wonder
like is this legit or just social media science.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
One of the.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Biggest ones like that is probiotics.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Yo.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Probiotics have been all over my timeline every day. It
feels like I'm getting hit with ads this probiotic and that,
probiotic drinks, gummies, face cream, even pillows, probiotic pillows.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
That's crazy, but I think I think a lot of
times the question is like what are these probiotics supposed
to actually do? Like are we really helping our bodies
or are we just buy an expensive yogurt.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
That's why we're in the lab today to figure out
what probiotics are how prebiotics fit in and why we're
hearing about bacteria like they're the new wellness MVPs.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Okay, here's what we know.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
There is bacteria living all over us, inside and out.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
That's what I learned from my friends and many. That's right,
because I didn't believe it. Yeah, it's your microbiome.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And it's not just bacteria. There's fun guy to And
those bacteria aren't random. They have evolved alongside us humans,
you know, doing important jobs, like they help us digest
food in the gut. They're trading our immune systems, protecting
our skin.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So that's the microbiome.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
But where I get stuck is all this talk about
probiotics and prebiotics. I see those words everywhere, but I'm like,
what's the difference. I know pro and pre are different prefixes,
but what's the difference and how do.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
They actually work?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Listen, even as someone who knows the science, I still
have questions because here's the thing. If I'm saying, Okay,
I know our bodies already have established microbial communities, so
and those organisms are surprisingly consistent across different people, you know,
So that means these systems are resilient. So when I
see a supplement this li we have billions of colony
(02:36):
forming units, you know, means that in that little pield,
they're saying, all these bacteria are capable of being alive
and making a little colony of cells. I'm wondering, by
taking probotics, are you actually able to change that resilient
community that already exists or are we just adding more
stuff that has no real impact. Okay, that's a deep cut. Okay,
(03:00):
for me, it's even more straightforward.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I just want to know our probiotics and probiotics something
I need to be taking.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Is it gonna help me?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I want to know how do they work in different
parts of your body, your gut, your skin, your hair?
And is it enough to eat some yogurt? Should I
be putting yogurt in my hair? I did that before
one time. Yeah, you know, I wouldn't recommend it.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
We don't want to go back to banana brea head. Okay, right, Oh, go.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Back and listen to that episode. It was poor advice
to my friend that I gave her. But do I
need to put yogurt everywhere? Or can I just take
a pill? Well, I think tt that's exactly what we
need to dig into. With doctor Raj, a gastro entrologist
an expert in science behind probiotics, she'll help us figure
out what's.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Legit and what's just marketing.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Perfect, let's jump into the dissection.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
I'm doctor Roshni Raj. I'm co founder of Yaday and Tula.
I'm an Associate Professor of Medicine at NYU School of Medicine,
and I can be reached my website, which is gut
Renovation dot net or on Instagram, Dr Roschi Raj.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So we're talking about probiotics, and our first question, doctor Raj,
is like, is this new? Because for a long time,
bacteria we're seen as the bad guys. You know, we
think back to the gold yellow dial soap. It was
like sanitize everything, bleach this, wash your hands with antibacterial soap.
We know that that's kind of gone away, but we're
also seeing this shift where people are talking about probiotics
(04:27):
in the gut and on the skin, and even when
we think about fermented foods like kombucha. Is that girl?
So it feels like bacteria is having a rebrand.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
No, I think first of all, I just want to say,
I'm so excited to be speaking with you both, and
especially at this moment in time, to be speaking to
women in science. And as we all know, science is
a little bit under or a lot under assault right now,
so it's really important the work that you're doing, and
I'm really I'm really honored to be part of your
program today. But talking about bacteria, it is a fascinating story.
(05:02):
And if you go back to kind of the history
exactly as you were saying ze Key about, but we
used to think all bacteria were bad, and in fact,
the first antibiotics, which was penicillin, was really discovered I
believe around the time of World War Two and the
battlefield and all these wounds and getting infected, and it
was such a life saving thing to discover antibiotics that
(05:24):
can kill bacteria and cure infection. And so that kind
of idea of bacteria is being bad and causing illness
really has remained in medicine up until and now I'm
dating myself, but during my gasterentrology fellowship, so we're talking
about two thousand and one, two thousand and two, that's
when I first learned about this term probiotics, the fact
(05:46):
that actually there's some bacteria that are not only not
bad for you, but actually good for you. They can
actually cause some real benefits in your gut. And back then,
all the discussion about probiotics was really just about digestive
health and how it can keep your DIGESTIONI in balance
and keep all the good bacteria in balance. But now
when we shift over twenty years, we realize that your
(06:07):
gut microbiome and those healthy bacteria can actually have positive
effects throughout your body, not just your gut, but your
mental health, your metabolism, your immunity, your risk of cancer,
heart disease, almost any disease under the sun. This is
what motivated me to write my book Gut Renovation a
couple of years ago, which is all about how your
microbiome can really impact your overall health. So, yes, bacteria
(06:30):
is definitely having a moment, and I'm very excited about
that because the research really does show that having a
healthy microbiome and that's the community of bacteria in your
gut really can have so many far reaching effects throughout
your body.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yes, it feels like bacteria has the right PR team
behind them. You hear the word bacteria and it doesn't
make you like.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Screen, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
And there has been a shift because when I started
co founded Tula, which is our probiotic skincare brand, we
started that in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, early fifteen, and
at that time, the thought of putting bacterial extracts on
the skin there definitely was still an ick factor and
why would we be doing that? Isn't that kind of gross?
(07:14):
There was a lot of education involved in really educating
the customer about what all the benefits are of doing that.
And now there's a skin microbiome conference every other week practically,
Like it's just so shifted. The information has exploded, consumer scientists,
everyone's really embracing this idea of your natural microbiome and
(07:35):
why it's so important to keep it balanced and intact.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I really want to get people to understand the differences
between good bacteria and bad bacteria. So probiotics and the
bad stuff that makes you sick. Yeah, how are they
different from one another?
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Yeah? So we know that in our digestive tract and
mostly I'm talking about your coal and your large intestine.
That's where we have the hosts. The majority of the
bacteria in our gut. We do have a community of
many good, beneficial strains of bacteria that can do many
different things. They can help strengthen the lining of your gut.
They can produce metabolites that affect your immune cells, they
(08:16):
can produce neurotransmitters that affect your mood, all sorts of things.
But we also do have some communities of bacteria that
are not so great for you, especially if they become overpopulated.
So if you think about sort of a garden and
there's beautiful flowers, there's some regular plants, and there are
some weeds, and you know they're always going to be
(08:37):
some weeds, but you want to just keep them under
control so they're not sucking up all the fuel that
should be going to the good stuff and basically destroying
all your good bacteria. And going along with this kind
of flower garden metaphor is the concept of prebiotics. So prebiotics,
you can think of that as the fertilizer for your good,
beautiful flowers. So prebiotics usually are fiber based, and these
(09:01):
are things that feed the growth of beneficial bacteria, and
that's why we think fiber is such a key crucial
component of our diet, because that's really how you can
feed the growth of your good bacteria, make sure they're
in abundance so that the bad bacteria doesn't have a
chance to overgrow. One example that we see a lot
in medicine of a bad bacteria is something called C.
(09:22):
Deficile or Cloustridium deficile. This is a bacteria that we
all have a little bit of, usually just walking around,
but it's small, it's a low enough amount it doesn't
cause problems. But sometimes when you take antibiotics, say you
have an ear infection or a respiratory infection, you take antibiotics,
it does get rid of whatever causing the ear infection
or the respiratory infection, but it can also destroy some
(09:44):
of your good protective bacteria in your gut, and that
allows this bad bacteria Sea deficile to overgrow and it
can cause inflammation, severe diarrhea, It can be quite serious.
So that's an example of when you throw things off balance,
bad bacteria have a better chance of growing and causing problems.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Okay, so we can think about probiotics as the good
bacteria we want, and prebiotics are there fertilizer, But what
about post biotics. It feels like we're just making up
worries at this point.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Yeah, great question. First everyone learned about probiotics, then they
have to learn about probiotics. Now we're throwing post biotics
in there. So post biotics are really the metabolites, the
actives that a probiotic bacteria can release, but it's not
the actual bacteria. So if you think of the bacteria
as almost like a sack holding some really important things
(10:50):
in there, the sack burst releases all that good stuff.
The good stuff is the post biotics, but the bacteria
itself is gone, it's dead, it's no longer there, but
it's releasing those active metabolites which can remain active even
though the bacteria has died. So, for example, with tula,
what were you putting on your skin? Those are not
live bacteria. Those are probiotic extracts or post biotics. There's
(11:13):
another term called symbiotic, which is a combination of a
prebiotic and a probiotic. So sometimes now if you take supplements,
maybe you used to take just a probiotic, Now you
can often find a combination of pre and pro So
these are all different, you know, different methods of really
boosting the health of your microbiome.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Okay, so prebiotic, probiotic, post biotic. Prebiotic plus probiotic equals symbiotic.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Did I get everything?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I know it feels like a lot you did. I
think when we break it down and think about that garden,
uh huh. Probiotic is the fertilizer in a probiotic is
the flower. The flower is that bacteria. Now, sometimes you
may just feel like, hey, I'm getting enough in my diet.
I don't need fertilizer. I just want the probiotic.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Sometimes you may say, hey, I'm gonna take this probody,
but I know I'm not doing right. I need the
fertilizer too. So that's called a symbiotic. That's put planting
your flowers and adding fertilizer directly to the soil as
soon as you do it. The post biotic is like
if you said, Okay, I'm just gonna skip the flower
and the fertilizer, give me the extract. I'm gonna take
these flowers and steep them. I'll drink the tea, and
(12:21):
the post body is the tea. When you take those
flowers and you say, what was in those flowers. I'm
gonna extract that out. That's what the post biotic is, Okay, Lavender.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I don't want this to be a reach, but I
don't know, if you remember, I don't know if we're
gonna be aging ourselves when like everything in the haircare
industry was like ion technology. Oh yeah, and I always
turn to t TEA for help with anything like this.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Ions are everywhere like it was. It just sounds good,
you know.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
It sounds scientific, but most people had no idea what
that meant. Is there a solid science that tells us
if we understand that we have acrobiome that's established, does
the science back this up? Aside from what we know
can sometimes happen with placebo effect, do we see that
adding probiotics and post biotics can shift the composition or
(13:13):
regulate dys biosis so when things are out of proportion
in the gut? Is there a strong case for that?
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Yeah, it's a great question, and I think first we
have to go back to is there science supporting just
the fact that the microbiome itself does have importance and
effects throughout our body? And that the answer is definitely yes.
So you know, there's something called the Human Microbiome Project
where scientists have really gone and mapped out all the
different strains or possible strains in the human microbiome and
(13:41):
what genes you know, confer different strains and what they
all do. So we know the microbiome exists and it
actually has a real purpose. But the question that you raise,
which is an interesting one, is intervention. So do interventions
like adding probiotics or adding probiotics make a difference? And
there it is still an early feel, I would say,
in certain in terms of research, but yes, there are
(14:03):
compelling studies looking at everything from adding probiotics to an
antidepression regimen, to adding probiotics to something for immunity, and
does that mean children will get less colds in a
given year? And there is compelling evidence to say, yes,
it does actually work. Do we know exactly what doses,
(14:23):
what strains should be for which people. I don't think
we're there quite yet, but it's definitely an active area
of research and I think we're going to get those
answers relatively soon. But there's just so many fascinating studies
out there looking at this. I mean, they have done
studies looking at people with depression and people without depression,
and then they examine their stool and they examine their
micromiome and they find real stark differences between the two.
(14:47):
And the question is, if you can supplement the person
with depression with the kind of non depressed type of bacteria,
is that going to help them? And they've shown some
small studies where it does help, but we need larger
amounts of evidence to really prove that. There are other
things looking at sleep in the microbiome, There's one that
I found really interesting looking at medical students who are
notoriously sleep deprived and specifically during a night shift, like
(15:09):
I think it was a three week night shift. They
looked at their microbiome kind of profile before they started
the night shift and after the three weeks, and they
saw significant changes. So that just being sleep deprived, and
they may have also eaten different things because they were
sleep deprived, but there were changes in their microbiome. There's
certain bacteria that they found to be more pro insomnia
(15:30):
or more pro good sleep. So there are just so
many connections that are being made. It's still in early field.
We still have a lot to learn, but there's definitely
something there.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Now I'm thinking of all of my ailments.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
There's a connection, and that's partly why I love the
concept of prebiotics and fiber, because we don't know exactly
what strain we should be taking for what. With prebiotics,
you're sort of getting that broad benefit because you're feeding
all of your good bacteria. You know, it's a way
to sort of head your bets a little bit, like
I'm not sure which bacteria should be feeding more, but
(16:05):
if I'm taking a ton of fiber, all of my
good bacteria are going to be plentiful and abundant.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Like miracle grow.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
More on the flower metaphor, yes, Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
In the research for this episode and just talking to
my friend because she's very smart and knows these things. Yeah,
I learned that we talk a lot about the gut microbiome,
but I also learned that your skin has microbiomes, there's
vaginal microbiomes, there's even.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Mouth and scalp microbiome.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Can you help us understand how these ecosystems differ across
the body and why they matter totally?
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Well, I think now we're realizing that this concept of
microbiome is important in many different parts of our body.
Like you said, and I think any woman who's ever
had a used infection in their life understands the importance
of a vaginal microbiome, right. So we know that particularly
if you take antibiotics or if something even up from
that throws off the ecosystem in the vaginal microbiome, you
(17:04):
can develop an overgrowth of yeast or potentially other infections.
So we know that there's a very delicate balance in
the vaginal area in terms of pH which is governed
by bacteria in many cases, and just the balance there,
so that's important. Then the oral microbiome is really fascinating
because now there are many studies showing that your oral
(17:25):
health really can impact again your overall health. Things like
heart disease, for example, is a big one because we
think that if you have more sort of plaque or
infection in the oral area, it can cause overall body inflammation.
And we know that inflammation is kind of the root
of all evils when it comes to most diseases. So, yes,
the oral microbiome is very important to maintain, and skin
(17:46):
microbiome for sure, and that's partly what TULA is all about.
But the fact that we have a delicate balance of
microbiome on our skin of good bacteria, and that really
the good bacteria on your skin can really help strengthen
your skin's natural defense barrier. And what that does is
help you hold onto moisture. It can help decrease skin inflammation.
(18:06):
And we know inflammation on the skin is what causes
collagen breakdown a last and breakdown that leads to wrinkle
formation as well as dryness, redness, irritation, all those things.
So that's how the skin microbiome can be very important,
and other things like pollution can disrupt it. Different products
can disrupt it as well. And scalp microbiome is also
particularly in people who have conditions like dandruff. For example.
(18:30):
There are now thoughts that the scalp microbiome plays a
role there as well and may allow for a certain
overgrowth of certain bacteria that can lead to more scalp
issues like dandruff.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
It's so interesting even an.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Under our microbiome. I was actually interested in looking at
that at one point. Deodorant and the microbiome and what
causes odor, all of those things have to do with
bacteria to a large extent, So kind of cracking the
code on that I think would be really interesting as well.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
We're understanding that we have this established micro biome and
it's not static, but the microbiome that are on your
feet or on your hands look different over time. We
actually have a friend from grad school, Keisha, Our friend
Keisha TT did a study of the microbiome on the
hands and feet and she was really a fungal microbiologist
(19:16):
and so she showed like, if you ever had athletes foot,
there's a microbiome's signature. If you've used like tough acting
to enacting or whatever the stuff for athletes foot, you
don't re establish those fun guy like you see a
different composition years later just because of that disruption to
your microbiome.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Okay, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, so that's cool. So that kind of shows that
you can make changes that can be super lasting. So
that also helps us understand why it's so important to
repopulate some of those key players when you lose them.
But yeah, when we introduce those players, like are we changing?
I guess I want to understand, like are we changing
the neighborhood? Like are we bringing in new people? Is
(19:59):
it like back to your gentrification or are we like
you know, like are we kicking out the other people
and bringing other folks in. Or are we just like
supplementing what's already there that don't normally exist.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
No great question, And I would say for the vast
majority of probiotics that you might buy off the shelf
are strains you already have that humans already contain, but
in higher doses to really give your natural ones a boost.
There are a few even kind of genetically modified probiotics
that have been kind of boosted to give some extra
benefit of some kind. But for the vast majority, it's
(20:33):
strains we already have. And these are certain families that
are common, like Bifittobacter or Lactobacillus or some so these
are things that we already naturally produce, but something may
have caused us to not produce enough, whether it was antibatics.
I mean, it's interesting what you said about the long
lasting effect of the fungal antifungals. There are studies looking
at children who get antibotics in childhood, for let's say,
(20:56):
repeated ear infections twenty thirty years later have a higher
incidents of things like Crohn's disease or other autoimmune diseases,
so they can really have long lasting effects these disruptions
of the microbiome, which is why it is so important
to do everything you can to take care of your gut.
I mean, that's what prompted me to start ya day,
is this idea of what's a simple thing that we
(21:16):
can all be doing to really optimize our gut microbiome,
and that's increasing our fiber. So that's why I really
wanted to do this probatic blend of great fibers. But yes,
I think most of the time it's what you naturally have,
but you want to boost it and make sure you
have them enough amounts.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Okay, continuing along with that metaphor that Azekia just said
about the neighborhood. Yeah, when these probiotis come in, are
they fistfighting with the bacteria that's already in the neighborhood
or are they coexisting in a very happy relationship.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
How does this work? How do they mix and mingle?
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Yeah, so they're coexisting well with the nice neighbors. I
would say that they're competing for food with the bad neighbors,
and that's good because you want those bad to not
get enough food and start to diminish and die off
a little bit. So, Yes, they really kind of compliment
your good, healthy bacteria and keep the bad guys kind
of down to a minimum. That's how it usually works.
(22:11):
And another interesting point which I don't think we knew
in the very beginning. We kind of thought, oh, you
give someone probiotics, let's say for a week or even
a month, and then their body kind of takes over.
It now looks like you probably have to keep up
the supplementation for quite a while. It's not. It's something
that your body probably will need more long term, as
(22:33):
opposed to being able to then ramp up its own
production and take over on its own.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
And preparation for this lab TT and I were talking
about understanding that in the same way that our immune
system gets stronger when it's exposed to things. Yeah, are
microbiome on the skin you know, when you first depending
on the method of delivery our birth into the world,
you have a transfer of the mother's skin microbiome to
the baby skin microbiome, right right, similar microbiome, the microbiome,
(23:17):
and when we think about colonizing that gut microbiome. And
I'm thinking about what you said about broad spectrum antibiotics
and also antibotics that are not topical, that are not
in one place, but that you may take orally as
a kid, that could destroy that gut microbiome. If we're
thinking about those first two years of life for kids
and how they're establishing their microbiome, but may be exposed,
(23:40):
especially in daycare, to so many things and so they
may be having to take antibiotics. Is there a case
for probiotics for kids.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
And is it beyond yogurt because I feel like people
say kids got to eat a lot of yogurt, but I.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Think there definitely is a case for it. Yes, yogurt
is fabulous because it has calcium and all these other things,
and it does have a nice rich mix of diverse organism,
so that's good. But these days, exactly as you said,
because they're exposed to so many viruses and infections, A,
the probiotics can help with immunity overall, and B if
(24:15):
they are unfortunately going to have to take antibiotics, and
definitely we should always use them sparingly, whether it's for
kids or adults, but sometimes they need them. I think
probiotics definitely are an important component of keeping their microbiome healthy.
I mean, now they have infant formulas with probiotics. They're
even giving it to neonates with certain conditions like premies,
(24:35):
depending on what's going on. So I think we're learning
that it is extremely important for sure to boost the
microbiome as kids are developing. And I just again, this
is something I just find interesting that you were talking
about delivery and the mother passing on microbes to the
child and they have these. You may have come across
this in your research, but studies looking at babies born
(24:56):
with c sections versus vaginal delivery and how their microbiomes
are much less healthy if they're born through sea section.
So they actually did a study where even if the
baby was born with a sea section, they would take
some of the vaginal flora of their mother and put
it on the skin of the baby and try to
like boost their microbiome that way, and it actually did work.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, well, if you do have to have a c section.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
Swab it.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, well only.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Women could have this discussion. I think, not loving it
right now, but.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
That sounds amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
That sounds amazing to hear that you know, if you
do have to go through sea section, that this is
not something that you.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Miss out on the things you can do. Yes, I
love that. I love that.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
My question is about probiotics as a cure for things.
Can it actually cure things? Because I mean, I see
a lot on TikTok and Instagram where people are saying
it could be a cure. But we wanted to talk
to an expert, someone who knows what they're talking about,
to tell us if it is possible for probiotic secure things,
(26:03):
what are they and then what are some misconceptions about
the impact of probiotics in some areas when it comes
to our health.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
I will tell you as a gas terentrologist firsthand, I
have had many patients who either have severe bloating or
constipation or diarrhea, whole host of things, and they start
taking certain probiotics and they feel one hundred percent better. So,
just anecdotally, I can tell you that for some people
in some conditions it can definitely work. Now globally and
(26:34):
there are studies that show for certain conditions it works,
especially in the digestive tract. But like I was saying before,
in terms of other parts of our body, whether it's
depression or other conditions, even they're looking at things like
autism and Parkinson's and dementia. There, the research is still ongoing,
so I don't think we can conclusively say we have
(26:54):
cures yet. I think we can conclusively say there is
a connection between the microbiome and these conditions. But how
we come up with the cure yet, I don't think so.
I mean, there's a probiotic that they've done some good
studies on showing that it helps with blood sugar control.
So is this something that maybe not a cure, but
a method of really helping control diabetes. I think there
is some evidence for that, So I think that's more
(27:16):
of an ongoing story. But certainly within the digestive world
there are conditions where probatics have been shown to help.
But I just think probably over the next five to
ten years, we're going to see a lot more proof
points and a lot more conclusive evidence.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
FDA has no indications that say probiotics are used to
treat this or can treat xyz. Yeah, but we also
know that sometimes the FDA is a large ship that
is slow turning.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, And so I think the question becomes without any
guidance or without something that has an ingredient or label
that says this will absolutely rebalance your skin microbiome where
this will help you not have embarrassed saying and stomach
rumbles in network? Right, How what should people be looking
for to know if a probiotic blend is for them.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
I do think it helps to talk to an expert,
like whether that's your healthcare practitioner or maybe it's your dermatologist.
For me, when I'm looking at because I'm looking at
products all the time just for various reasons, to see
what people are doing, and I'll do a quick search.
I'll look at the strains and I'll do a quick
search of what is the science behind these strains, like
has this strain been shown to improve skin hydration or
(28:32):
improve acne, or has this strain been shown to help
with bloating. I think because like you said, there's so
many things out there, there's really no regulation it is,
it can be very confusing, and so it's hard to
give a blanket answer of oh, look for XYZ and
you're good. I think you have to really look at
the label always off the bat, it's generally better to
(28:53):
go with a reputable company, one that you can kind
of see where they're coming from. I mean, I think
one of the good news things about probiotics is there's
very little downside, so unlike many supplements, yeah, herbs and
things where you know, people think like, oh it's herbal,
it's all good, But herbs can cause liver failure, they
can cause all yeah, as you guys know, so to me.
(29:16):
Because probiotics usually are just a bacterial strain, there's usually
very little downside to it. But you want something that's
actually going to be effective for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Just like we're talking about gut health, we want to
think about healthy skin. How do you define healthy skin?
And then how do topicals or probiotics work differently depending
on your skin type.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
I mean, first of all, Toola, we always want to
make sure we're not trying to say everyone needs to
have perfect skin. There is no such thing as perfect skin,
and what you see on Instagram is usually not reality.
But generally, what we are aiming for with healthy skin
our skin that is not overly dried or irritated. Hydration
and irritation and dryness are the main things there. In
(29:59):
terms of topical probiotics, I think there are some topical
probiotic extracts that work very well for hydration. There are
others that specifically work for things like rosation and acne,
and those are one of those areas where there's a
lot of active research going on. But I think it's
different strains for different things. But for overall the average
person who doesn't have examo roseaesia acne but just wants
(30:22):
healthier skin or glowing, moist good skin, there are some
general families of bacteria that they can find that are
good for that.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Okay, you've covered so much. We talked about digestion for
the gut. We talked a little bit about the mind
gut access and like how that can effect mood and
mental health. But I'm curious if you have any breakthroughs
that you think are happening or that things that you're
seeing that feel like, oh, this is exciting around the
area of good bacteria, a good fun guy or good
(30:52):
microbes in medicine.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Yeah, I think the thing that I'm excited about, I'm
so excited about just more and more research on interventions
using probiotics. Like I said, I don't think we're that
far away from an antidepressant probiotic, which would have all
the benefits and none of the side effects of antidepressants.
Right now, you know, so I think that would be
just revolutionary given the mental health crisis we're going through
(31:17):
at the moment. But one of the things I'm really
excited about is this idea of taking a probiotic, a
healthy bacteria, and basically modifying it in a way that
it can deliver, like you said, some kind of other
benefit that it wasn't actually naturally intended to do, but
something positive. So, for example, there's a bacteria that they're
working on to help with lactose intolerance or even with
(31:39):
silliact disease, which you know, gluten intolerance. So ways to
modify these bacteria so that if you take it, you're
actually able to process gluten or able to process lactose,
things like that. Really engineering these bacteria to serve even
more purpose than they already do. That's something I'm very
excited about, for sure. And I think you know you
mentioned gout mind. I don't think we talked about it
(32:00):
that much, but I do think that's probably the next
front here, is really getting more into that gut mind connection,
because I mean, it's very real. If you've ever had
butterflies in your stomach, you know that it's real. But
it goes well beyond that, and how do we what
are ways we can modulate our mood by really modulating
what's going on in our gut. I think that could
be so fascinating. And they're even studies looking at personality
(32:23):
differences when you change the microbiome, like making someone who
shine more outgoing or vice versa. Like, there's just so
much fertile ground there for exploration, so I'm excited to
see where where that goes.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Wow, so we you can make yourself healthier, happier or outgoing,
exactly better skin, better hairs.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
All these different things. It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
So if someone is listening right now and they're like,
oh my gosh, I've learned so much about probiotics now
I know that, you know, probiotics can really help me
with certain things that I'm experiencing. They what's the first
step do they take that they should take? How do
they know what probiotic to use?
Speaker 4 (33:05):
So, as I was saying before, I would start with
probiotics because that we know is going to fuel the
growth of all your good bacteria. So probatics you definitely
can find in your diet, things like artichokes, apricots, almonds,
many different sources of fiber or good sources of probiotics. Okay,
you can also find a lot of probiotic rich foods
in your diet. So I have yogurt every day, yogurt
(33:26):
with live and active cultures. But things like kimchi, miso, sauerkraut,
fermented pickles, kafir I think you guys mentioned, or kombucha.
So there are different ways to get probiotics in. And
then yes, taking a probatic supplement and or a probiotic
supplement is also a great way to ensure you're getting that.
You know, when we talk about fiber, it's thought that
over ninety percent of Americans don't get the recommended amount
(33:48):
of fiber, so most of us are fiber deprived and
can use more, and it's so important to boost our microbio.
But then the other just last thing I'll say is
we're talking a lot about diet and supplements, but there
are a lot of other things that affect your microbiomes.
So stress can cause imbalances in your microbiomes. Sleep deprivation
can do it, lack of exercise can do it. So
(34:09):
you want to be thinking holistically about your lifestyle because
all of those things can either positively or negatively affect
your microbiomes, so make sure you're paying attention to all
aspects of your lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Such a good point.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
If you're worried about your skin care, you should worry
about your gut care as well, and your tire microbiome.
That's correct, that's such good advice.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
All right.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So tt here's what we learn. Probatics are the good bacteria.
Probiotics are the fiber that feeds them. Post Biotics are
the byproducts, the useful leftovers out of those bacteria, and symbiotics, well,
that's a burger fries. It's a combo meal.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
But the big takeaway your microbiome matter is not just
for your gut, but for your skin, mood, even your sleep.
And while the science is still catching up on exactly
how to optimize it, we know this fiber is your friend.
Probiotics can help, but not all blends are created equal,
and your lifestyle, sleep, stress, exercise, all that affects your microbiome.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
So whether you're here for the yogurt, komuncha or the skincare,
just remember that bacteria more than just germs. They might
be your body's best kept secret.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
See y'all next time.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Special thanks to Doctor Raj, who can be found to
her website gut Renovation dot net.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast, tt is.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
On X and Instagram at dr Underscore, T s.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
H O, and you can find Takiya at z said So.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Dope Labs is a production of Lemonada Media.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate
producer is Isara Savez.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Dope Labs is sound design, edited and mixed by James Farber.
Leimonada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger.
Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead
is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Original music composed and produced by Taka Yatsuzawa and Alex
sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Lab
is executive produced by US T T Show Dia and
Nikia Wattley.
I'm TT and I'm Zakiah, and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
I saw this TikTok where people were taking a shot
(00:24):
of apple cider vinegar every morning to keep their stomach
on flat flat.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Ooh, that's a lot of ascid.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
I am not that kind of scientist, so I have
no idea what that's supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I just feel like there are so many wellness trends
like that, and they're just things that make you wonder
like is this legit or just social media science.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
One of the.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Biggest ones like that is probiotics.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Yo.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Probiotics have been all over my timeline every day. It
feels like I'm getting hit with ads this probiotic and that,
probiotic drinks, gummies, face cream, even pillows, probiotic pillows.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
That's crazy, but I think I think a lot of
times the question is like what are these probiotics supposed
to actually do? Like are we really helping our bodies
or are we just buy an expensive yogurt.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
That's why we're in the lab today to figure out
what probiotics are how prebiotics fit in and why we're
hearing about bacteria like they're the new wellness MVPs.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Okay, here's what we know.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
There is bacteria living all over us, inside and out.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
That's what I learned from my friends and many. That's right,
because I didn't believe it. Yeah, it's your microbiome.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And it's not just bacteria. There's fun guy to And
those bacteria aren't random. They have evolved alongside us humans,
you know, doing important jobs, like they help us digest
food in the gut. They're trading our immune systems, protecting
our skin.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So that's the microbiome.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
But where I get stuck is all this talk about
probiotics and prebiotics. I see those words everywhere, but I'm like,
what's the difference. I know pro and pre are different prefixes,
but what's the difference and how do.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
They actually work?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Listen, even as someone who knows the science, I still
have questions because here's the thing. If I'm saying, Okay,
I know our bodies already have established microbial communities, so
and those organisms are surprisingly consistent across different people, you know,
So that means these systems are resilient. So when I
see a supplement this li we have billions of colony
(02:36):
forming units, you know, means that in that little pield,
they're saying, all these bacteria are capable of being alive
and making a little colony of cells. I'm wondering, by
taking probotics, are you actually able to change that resilient
community that already exists or are we just adding more
stuff that has no real impact. Okay, that's a deep cut. Okay,
(03:00):
for me, it's even more straightforward.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I just want to know our probiotics and probiotics something
I need to be taking.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Is it gonna help me?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I want to know how do they work in different
parts of your body, your gut, your skin, your hair?
And is it enough to eat some yogurt? Should I
be putting yogurt in my hair? I did that before
one time. Yeah, you know, I wouldn't recommend it.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
We don't want to go back to banana brea head. Okay, right, Oh, go.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Back and listen to that episode. It was poor advice
to my friend that I gave her. But do I
need to put yogurt everywhere? Or can I just take
a pill? Well, I think tt that's exactly what we
need to dig into. With doctor Raj, a gastro entrologist
an expert in science behind probiotics, she'll help us figure
out what's.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Legit and what's just marketing.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Perfect, let's jump into the dissection.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
I'm doctor Roshni Raj. I'm co founder of Yaday and Tula.
I'm an Associate Professor of Medicine at NYU School of Medicine,
and I can be reached my website, which is gut
Renovation dot net or on Instagram, Dr Roschi Raj.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So we're talking about probiotics, and our first question, doctor Raj,
is like, is this new? Because for a long time,
bacteria we're seen as the bad guys. You know, we
think back to the gold yellow dial soap. It was
like sanitize everything, bleach this, wash your hands with antibacterial soap.
We know that that's kind of gone away, but we're
also seeing this shift where people are talking about probiotics
(04:27):
in the gut and on the skin, and even when
we think about fermented foods like kombucha. Is that girl?
So it feels like bacteria is having a rebrand.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
No, I think first of all, I just want to say,
I'm so excited to be speaking with you both, and
especially at this moment in time, to be speaking to
women in science. And as we all know, science is
a little bit under or a lot under assault right now,
so it's really important the work that you're doing, and
I'm really I'm really honored to be part of your
program today. But talking about bacteria, it is a fascinating story.
(05:02):
And if you go back to kind of the history
exactly as you were saying ze Key about, but we
used to think all bacteria were bad, and in fact,
the first antibiotics, which was penicillin, was really discovered I
believe around the time of World War Two and the
battlefield and all these wounds and getting infected, and it
was such a life saving thing to discover antibiotics that
(05:24):
can kill bacteria and cure infection. And so that kind
of idea of bacteria is being bad and causing illness
really has remained in medicine up until and now I'm
dating myself, but during my gasterentrology fellowship, so we're talking
about two thousand and one, two thousand and two, that's
when I first learned about this term probiotics, the fact
(05:46):
that actually there's some bacteria that are not only not
bad for you, but actually good for you. They can
actually cause some real benefits in your gut. And back then,
all the discussion about probiotics was really just about digestive
health and how it can keep your DIGESTIONI in balance
and keep all the good bacteria in balance. But now
when we shift over twenty years, we realize that your
(06:07):
gut microbiome and those healthy bacteria can actually have positive
effects throughout your body, not just your gut, but your
mental health, your metabolism, your immunity, your risk of cancer,
heart disease, almost any disease under the sun. This is
what motivated me to write my book Gut Renovation a
couple of years ago, which is all about how your
microbiome can really impact your overall health. So, yes, bacteria
(06:30):
is definitely having a moment, and I'm very excited about
that because the research really does show that having a
healthy microbiome and that's the community of bacteria in your
gut really can have so many far reaching effects throughout
your body.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yes, it feels like bacteria has the right PR team
behind them. You hear the word bacteria and it doesn't
make you like.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Screen, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
And there has been a shift because when I started
co founded Tula, which is our probiotic skincare brand, we
started that in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, early fifteen, and
at that time, the thought of putting bacterial extracts on
the skin there definitely was still an ick factor and
why would we be doing that? Isn't that kind of gross?
(07:14):
There was a lot of education involved in really educating
the customer about what all the benefits are of doing that.
And now there's a skin microbiome conference every other week practically,
Like it's just so shifted. The information has exploded, consumer scientists,
everyone's really embracing this idea of your natural microbiome and
(07:35):
why it's so important to keep it balanced and intact.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I really want to get people to understand the differences
between good bacteria and bad bacteria. So probiotics and the
bad stuff that makes you sick. Yeah, how are they
different from one another?
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Yeah? So we know that in our digestive tract and
mostly I'm talking about your coal and your large intestine.
That's where we have the hosts. The majority of the
bacteria in our gut. We do have a community of
many good, beneficial strains of bacteria that can do many
different things. They can help strengthen the lining of your gut.
They can produce metabolites that affect your immune cells, they
(08:16):
can produce neurotransmitters that affect your mood, all sorts of things.
But we also do have some communities of bacteria that
are not so great for you, especially if they become overpopulated.
So if you think about sort of a garden and
there's beautiful flowers, there's some regular plants, and there are
some weeds, and you know they're always going to be
(08:37):
some weeds, but you want to just keep them under
control so they're not sucking up all the fuel that
should be going to the good stuff and basically destroying
all your good bacteria. And going along with this kind
of flower garden metaphor is the concept of prebiotics. So prebiotics,
you can think of that as the fertilizer for your good,
beautiful flowers. So prebiotics usually are fiber based, and these
(09:01):
are things that feed the growth of beneficial bacteria, and
that's why we think fiber is such a key crucial
component of our diet, because that's really how you can
feed the growth of your good bacteria, make sure they're
in abundance so that the bad bacteria doesn't have a
chance to overgrow. One example that we see a lot
in medicine of a bad bacteria is something called C.
(09:22):
Deficile or Cloustridium deficile. This is a bacteria that we
all have a little bit of, usually just walking around,
but it's small, it's a low enough amount it doesn't
cause problems. But sometimes when you take antibiotics, say you
have an ear infection or a respiratory infection, you take antibiotics,
it does get rid of whatever causing the ear infection
or the respiratory infection, but it can also destroy some
(09:44):
of your good protective bacteria in your gut, and that
allows this bad bacteria Sea deficile to overgrow and it
can cause inflammation, severe diarrhea, It can be quite serious.
So that's an example of when you throw things off balance,
bad bacteria have a better chance of growing and causing problems.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Okay, so we can think about probiotics as the good
bacteria we want, and prebiotics are there fertilizer, But what
about post biotics. It feels like we're just making up
worries at this point.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Yeah, great question. First everyone learned about probiotics, then they
have to learn about probiotics. Now we're throwing post biotics
in there. So post biotics are really the metabolites, the
actives that a probiotic bacteria can release, but it's not
the actual bacteria. So if you think of the bacteria
as almost like a sack holding some really important things
(10:50):
in there, the sack burst releases all that good stuff.
The good stuff is the post biotics, but the bacteria
itself is gone, it's dead, it's no longer there, but
it's releasing those active metabolites which can remain active even
though the bacteria has died. So, for example, with tula,
what were you putting on your skin? Those are not
live bacteria. Those are probiotic extracts or post biotics. There's
(11:13):
another term called symbiotic, which is a combination of a
prebiotic and a probiotic. So sometimes now if you take supplements,
maybe you used to take just a probiotic, Now you
can often find a combination of pre and pro So
these are all different, you know, different methods of really
boosting the health of your microbiome.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Okay, so prebiotic, probiotic, post biotic. Prebiotic plus probiotic equals symbiotic.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Did I get everything?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I know it feels like a lot you did. I
think when we break it down and think about that garden,
uh huh. Probiotic is the fertilizer in a probiotic is
the flower. The flower is that bacteria. Now, sometimes you
may just feel like, hey, I'm getting enough in my diet.
I don't need fertilizer. I just want the probiotic.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Sometimes you may say, hey, I'm gonna take this probody,
but I know I'm not doing right. I need the
fertilizer too. So that's called a symbiotic. That's put planting
your flowers and adding fertilizer directly to the soil as
soon as you do it. The post biotic is like
if you said, Okay, I'm just gonna skip the flower
and the fertilizer, give me the extract. I'm gonna take
these flowers and steep them. I'll drink the tea, and
(12:21):
the post body is the tea. When you take those
flowers and you say, what was in those flowers. I'm
gonna extract that out. That's what the post biotic is, Okay, Lavender.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I don't want this to be a reach, but I
don't know, if you remember, I don't know if we're
gonna be aging ourselves when like everything in the haircare
industry was like ion technology. Oh yeah, and I always
turn to t TEA for help with anything like this.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Ions are everywhere like it was. It just sounds good,
you know.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
It sounds scientific, but most people had no idea what
that meant. Is there a solid science that tells us
if we understand that we have acrobiome that's established, does
the science back this up? Aside from what we know
can sometimes happen with placebo effect, do we see that
adding probiotics and post biotics can shift the composition or
(13:13):
regulate dys biosis so when things are out of proportion
in the gut? Is there a strong case for that?
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Yeah, it's a great question, and I think first we
have to go back to is there science supporting just
the fact that the microbiome itself does have importance and
effects throughout our body? And that the answer is definitely yes.
So you know, there's something called the Human Microbiome Project
where scientists have really gone and mapped out all the
different strains or possible strains in the human microbiome and
(13:41):
what genes you know, confer different strains and what they
all do. So we know the microbiome exists and it
actually has a real purpose. But the question that you raise,
which is an interesting one, is intervention. So do interventions
like adding probiotics or adding probiotics make a difference? And
there it is still an early feel, I would say,
in certain in terms of research, but yes, there are
(14:03):
compelling studies looking at everything from adding probiotics to an
antidepression regimen, to adding probiotics to something for immunity, and
does that mean children will get less colds in a
given year? And there is compelling evidence to say, yes,
it does actually work. Do we know exactly what doses,
(14:23):
what strains should be for which people. I don't think
we're there quite yet, but it's definitely an active area
of research and I think we're going to get those
answers relatively soon. But there's just so many fascinating studies
out there looking at this. I mean, they have done
studies looking at people with depression and people without depression,
and then they examine their stool and they examine their
micromiome and they find real stark differences between the two.
(14:47):
And the question is, if you can supplement the person
with depression with the kind of non depressed type of bacteria,
is that going to help them? And they've shown some
small studies where it does help, but we need larger
amounts of evidence to really prove that. There are other
things looking at sleep in the microbiome, There's one that
I found really interesting looking at medical students who are
notoriously sleep deprived and specifically during a night shift, like
(15:09):
I think it was a three week night shift. They
looked at their microbiome kind of profile before they started
the night shift and after the three weeks, and they
saw significant changes. So that just being sleep deprived, and
they may have also eaten different things because they were
sleep deprived, but there were changes in their microbiome. There's
certain bacteria that they found to be more pro insomnia
(15:30):
or more pro good sleep. So there are just so
many connections that are being made. It's still in early field.
We still have a lot to learn, but there's definitely
something there.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Now I'm thinking of all of my ailments.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
There's a connection, and that's partly why I love the
concept of prebiotics and fiber, because we don't know exactly
what strain we should be taking for what. With prebiotics,
you're sort of getting that broad benefit because you're feeding
all of your good bacteria. You know, it's a way
to sort of head your bets a little bit, like
I'm not sure which bacteria should be feeding more, but
(16:05):
if I'm taking a ton of fiber, all of my
good bacteria are going to be plentiful and abundant.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Like miracle grow.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
More on the flower metaphor, yes, Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
In the research for this episode and just talking to
my friend because she's very smart and knows these things. Yeah,
I learned that we talk a lot about the gut microbiome,
but I also learned that your skin has microbiomes, there's
vaginal microbiomes, there's even.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Mouth and scalp microbiome.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Can you help us understand how these ecosystems differ across
the body and why they matter totally?
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Well, I think now we're realizing that this concept of
microbiome is important in many different parts of our body.
Like you said, and I think any woman who's ever
had a used infection in their life understands the importance
of a vaginal microbiome, right. So we know that particularly
if you take antibiotics or if something even up from
that throws off the ecosystem in the vaginal microbiome, you
(17:04):
can develop an overgrowth of yeast or potentially other infections.
So we know that there's a very delicate balance in
the vaginal area in terms of pH which is governed
by bacteria in many cases, and just the balance there,
so that's important. Then the oral microbiome is really fascinating
because now there are many studies showing that your oral
(17:25):
health really can impact again your overall health. Things like
heart disease, for example, is a big one because we
think that if you have more sort of plaque or
infection in the oral area, it can cause overall body inflammation.
And we know that inflammation is kind of the root
of all evils when it comes to most diseases. So, yes,
the oral microbiome is very important to maintain, and skin
(17:46):
microbiome for sure, and that's partly what TULA is all about.
But the fact that we have a delicate balance of
microbiome on our skin of good bacteria, and that really
the good bacteria on your skin can really help strengthen
your skin's natural defense barrier. And what that does is
help you hold onto moisture. It can help decrease skin inflammation.
(18:06):
And we know inflammation on the skin is what causes
collagen breakdown a last and breakdown that leads to wrinkle
formation as well as dryness, redness, irritation, all those things.
So that's how the skin microbiome can be very important,
and other things like pollution can disrupt it. Different products
can disrupt it as well. And scalp microbiome is also
particularly in people who have conditions like dandruff. For example.
(18:30):
There are now thoughts that the scalp microbiome plays a
role there as well and may allow for a certain
overgrowth of certain bacteria that can lead to more scalp
issues like dandruff.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
It's so interesting even an.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
Under our microbiome. I was actually interested in looking at
that at one point. Deodorant and the microbiome and what
causes odor, all of those things have to do with
bacteria to a large extent, So kind of cracking the
code on that I think would be really interesting as well.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
We're understanding that we have this established micro biome and
it's not static, but the microbiome that are on your
feet or on your hands look different over time. We
actually have a friend from grad school, Keisha, Our friend
Keisha TT did a study of the microbiome on the
hands and feet and she was really a fungal microbiologist
(19:16):
and so she showed like, if you ever had athletes foot,
there's a microbiome's signature. If you've used like tough acting
to enacting or whatever the stuff for athletes foot, you
don't re establish those fun guy like you see a
different composition years later just because of that disruption to
your microbiome.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Okay, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, so that's cool. So that kind of shows that
you can make changes that can be super lasting. So
that also helps us understand why it's so important to
repopulate some of those key players when you lose them.
But yeah, when we introduce those players, like are we changing?
I guess I want to understand, like are we changing
the neighborhood? Like are we bringing in new people? Is
(19:59):
it like back to your gentrification or are we like
you know, like are we kicking out the other people
and bringing other folks in. Or are we just like
supplementing what's already there that don't normally exist.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
No great question, And I would say for the vast
majority of probiotics that you might buy off the shelf
are strains you already have that humans already contain, but
in higher doses to really give your natural ones a boost.
There are a few even kind of genetically modified probiotics
that have been kind of boosted to give some extra
benefit of some kind. But for the vast majority, it's
(20:33):
strains we already have. And these are certain families that
are common, like Bifittobacter or Lactobacillus or some so these
are things that we already naturally produce, but something may
have caused us to not produce enough, whether it was antibatics.
I mean, it's interesting what you said about the long
lasting effect of the fungal antifungals. There are studies looking
at children who get antibotics in childhood, for let's say,
(20:56):
repeated ear infections twenty thirty years later have a higher
incidents of things like Crohn's disease or other autoimmune diseases,
so they can really have long lasting effects these disruptions
of the microbiome, which is why it is so important
to do everything you can to take care of your gut.
I mean, that's what prompted me to start ya day,
is this idea of what's a simple thing that we
(21:16):
can all be doing to really optimize our gut microbiome,
and that's increasing our fiber. So that's why I really
wanted to do this probatic blend of great fibers. But yes,
I think most of the time it's what you naturally have,
but you want to boost it and make sure you
have them enough amounts.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Okay, continuing along with that metaphor that Azekia just said
about the neighborhood. Yeah, when these probiotis come in, are
they fistfighting with the bacteria that's already in the neighborhood
or are they coexisting in a very happy relationship.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
How does this work? How do they mix and mingle?
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Yeah, so they're coexisting well with the nice neighbors. I
would say that they're competing for food with the bad neighbors,
and that's good because you want those bad to not
get enough food and start to diminish and die off
a little bit. So, Yes, they really kind of compliment
your good, healthy bacteria and keep the bad guys kind
of down to a minimum. That's how it usually works.
(22:11):
And another interesting point which I don't think we knew
in the very beginning. We kind of thought, oh, you
give someone probiotics, let's say for a week or even
a month, and then their body kind of takes over.
It now looks like you probably have to keep up
the supplementation for quite a while. It's not. It's something
that your body probably will need more long term, as
(22:33):
opposed to being able to then ramp up its own
production and take over on its own.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
And preparation for this lab TT and I were talking
about understanding that in the same way that our immune
system gets stronger when it's exposed to things. Yeah, are
microbiome on the skin you know, when you first depending
on the method of delivery our birth into the world,
you have a transfer of the mother's skin microbiome to
the baby skin microbiome, right right, similar microbiome, the microbiome,
(23:17):
and when we think about colonizing that gut microbiome. And
I'm thinking about what you said about broad spectrum antibiotics
and also antibotics that are not topical, that are not
in one place, but that you may take orally as
a kid, that could destroy that gut microbiome. If we're
thinking about those first two years of life for kids
and how they're establishing their microbiome, but may be exposed,
(23:40):
especially in daycare, to so many things and so they
may be having to take antibiotics. Is there a case
for probiotics for kids.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
And is it beyond yogurt because I feel like people
say kids got to eat a lot of yogurt, but I.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Think there definitely is a case for it. Yes, yogurt
is fabulous because it has calcium and all these other things,
and it does have a nice rich mix of diverse organism,
so that's good. But these days, exactly as you said,
because they're exposed to so many viruses and infections, A,
the probiotics can help with immunity overall, and B if
(24:15):
they are unfortunately going to have to take antibiotics, and
definitely we should always use them sparingly, whether it's for
kids or adults, but sometimes they need them. I think
probiotics definitely are an important component of keeping their microbiome healthy.
I mean, now they have infant formulas with probiotics. They're
even giving it to neonates with certain conditions like premies,
(24:35):
depending on what's going on. So I think we're learning
that it is extremely important for sure to boost the
microbiome as kids are developing. And I just again, this
is something I just find interesting that you were talking
about delivery and the mother passing on microbes to the
child and they have these. You may have come across
this in your research, but studies looking at babies born
(24:56):
with c sections versus vaginal delivery and how their microbiomes
are much less healthy if they're born through sea section.
So they actually did a study where even if the
baby was born with a sea section, they would take
some of the vaginal flora of their mother and put
it on the skin of the baby and try to
like boost their microbiome that way, and it actually did work.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, well, if you do have to have a c section.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
Swab it.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, well only.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Women could have this discussion. I think, not loving it
right now, but.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
That sounds amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
That sounds amazing to hear that you know, if you
do have to go through sea section, that this is
not something that you.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Miss out on the things you can do. Yes, I
love that. I love that.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
My question is about probiotics as a cure for things.
Can it actually cure things? Because I mean, I see
a lot on TikTok and Instagram where people are saying
it could be a cure. But we wanted to talk
to an expert, someone who knows what they're talking about,
to tell us if it is possible for probiotic secure things,
(26:03):
what are they and then what are some misconceptions about
the impact of probiotics in some areas when it comes
to our health.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
I will tell you as a gas terentrologist firsthand, I
have had many patients who either have severe bloating or
constipation or diarrhea, whole host of things, and they start
taking certain probiotics and they feel one hundred percent better. So,
just anecdotally, I can tell you that for some people
in some conditions it can definitely work. Now globally and
(26:34):
there are studies that show for certain conditions it works,
especially in the digestive tract. But like I was saying before,
in terms of other parts of our body, whether it's
depression or other conditions, even they're looking at things like
autism and Parkinson's and dementia. There, the research is still ongoing,
so I don't think we can conclusively say we have
(26:54):
cures yet. I think we can conclusively say there is
a connection between the microbiome and these conditions. But how
we come up with the cure yet, I don't think so.
I mean, there's a probiotic that they've done some good
studies on showing that it helps with blood sugar control.
So is this something that maybe not a cure, but
a method of really helping control diabetes. I think there
is some evidence for that, So I think that's more
(27:16):
of an ongoing story. But certainly within the digestive world
there are conditions where probatics have been shown to help.
But I just think probably over the next five to
ten years, we're going to see a lot more proof
points and a lot more conclusive evidence.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
FDA has no indications that say probiotics are used to
treat this or can treat xyz. Yeah, but we also
know that sometimes the FDA is a large ship that
is slow turning.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Yeah, And so I think the question becomes without any
guidance or without something that has an ingredient or label
that says this will absolutely rebalance your skin microbiome where
this will help you not have embarrassed saying and stomach
rumbles in network? Right, How what should people be looking
for to know if a probiotic blend is for them.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
I do think it helps to talk to an expert,
like whether that's your healthcare practitioner or maybe it's your dermatologist.
For me, when I'm looking at because I'm looking at
products all the time just for various reasons, to see
what people are doing, and I'll do a quick search.
I'll look at the strains and I'll do a quick
search of what is the science behind these strains, like
has this strain been shown to improve skin hydration or
(28:32):
improve acne, or has this strain been shown to help
with bloating. I think because like you said, there's so
many things out there, there's really no regulation it is,
it can be very confusing, and so it's hard to
give a blanket answer of oh, look for XYZ and
you're good. I think you have to really look at
the label always off the bat, it's generally better to
(28:53):
go with a reputable company, one that you can kind
of see where they're coming from. I mean, I think
one of the good news things about probiotics is there's
very little downside, so unlike many supplements, yeah, herbs and
things where you know, people think like, oh it's herbal,
it's all good, But herbs can cause liver failure, they
can cause all yeah, as you guys know, so to me.
(29:16):
Because probiotics usually are just a bacterial strain, there's usually
very little downside to it. But you want something that's
actually going to be effective for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Just like we're talking about gut health, we want to
think about healthy skin. How do you define healthy skin?
And then how do topicals or probiotics work differently depending
on your skin type.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
I mean, first of all, Toola, we always want to
make sure we're not trying to say everyone needs to
have perfect skin. There is no such thing as perfect skin,
and what you see on Instagram is usually not reality.
But generally, what we are aiming for with healthy skin
our skin that is not overly dried or irritated. Hydration
and irritation and dryness are the main things there. In
(29:59):
terms of topical probiotics, I think there are some topical
probiotic extracts that work very well for hydration. There are
others that specifically work for things like rosation and acne,
and those are one of those areas where there's a
lot of active research going on. But I think it's
different strains for different things. But for overall the average
person who doesn't have examo roseaesia acne but just wants
(30:22):
healthier skin or glowing, moist good skin, there are some
general families of bacteria that they can find that are
good for that.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Okay, you've covered so much. We talked about digestion for
the gut. We talked a little bit about the mind
gut access and like how that can effect mood and
mental health. But I'm curious if you have any breakthroughs
that you think are happening or that things that you're
seeing that feel like, oh, this is exciting around the
area of good bacteria, a good fun guy or good
(30:52):
microbes in medicine.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Yeah, I think the thing that I'm excited about, I'm
so excited about just more and more research on interventions
using probiotics. Like I said, I don't think we're that
far away from an antidepressant probiotic, which would have all
the benefits and none of the side effects of antidepressants.
Right now, you know, so I think that would be
just revolutionary given the mental health crisis we're going through
(31:17):
at the moment. But one of the things I'm really
excited about is this idea of taking a probiotic, a
healthy bacteria, and basically modifying it in a way that
it can deliver, like you said, some kind of other
benefit that it wasn't actually naturally intended to do, but
something positive. So, for example, there's a bacteria that they're
working on to help with lactose intolerance or even with
(31:39):
silliact disease, which you know, gluten intolerance. So ways to
modify these bacteria so that if you take it, you're
actually able to process gluten or able to process lactose,
things like that. Really engineering these bacteria to serve even
more purpose than they already do. That's something I'm very
excited about, for sure. And I think you know you
mentioned gout mind. I don't think we talked about it
(32:00):
that much, but I do think that's probably the next
front here, is really getting more into that gut mind connection,
because I mean, it's very real. If you've ever had
butterflies in your stomach, you know that it's real. But
it goes well beyond that, and how do we what
are ways we can modulate our mood by really modulating
what's going on in our gut. I think that could
be so fascinating. And they're even studies looking at personality
(32:23):
differences when you change the microbiome, like making someone who
shine more outgoing or vice versa. Like, there's just so
much fertile ground there for exploration, so I'm excited to
see where where that goes.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Wow, so we you can make yourself healthier, happier or outgoing,
exactly better skin, better hairs.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
All these different things. It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
So if someone is listening right now and they're like,
oh my gosh, I've learned so much about probiotics now
I know that, you know, probiotics can really help me
with certain things that I'm experiencing. They what's the first
step do they take that they should take? How do
they know what probiotic to use?
Speaker 4 (33:05):
So, as I was saying before, I would start with
probiotics because that we know is going to fuel the
growth of all your good bacteria. So probatics you definitely
can find in your diet, things like artichokes, apricots, almonds,
many different sources of fiber or good sources of probiotics. Okay,
you can also find a lot of probiotic rich foods
in your diet. So I have yogurt every day, yogurt
(33:26):
with live and active cultures. But things like kimchi, miso, sauerkraut,
fermented pickles, kafir I think you guys mentioned, or kombucha.
So there are different ways to get probiotics in. And
then yes, taking a probatic supplement and or a probiotic
supplement is also a great way to ensure you're getting that.
You know, when we talk about fiber, it's thought that
over ninety percent of Americans don't get the recommended amount
(33:48):
of fiber, so most of us are fiber deprived and
can use more, and it's so important to boost our microbio.
But then the other just last thing I'll say is
we're talking a lot about diet and supplements, but there
are a lot of other things that affect your microbiomes.
So stress can cause imbalances in your microbiomes. Sleep deprivation
can do it, lack of exercise can do it. So
(34:09):
you want to be thinking holistically about your lifestyle because
all of those things can either positively or negatively affect
your microbiomes, so make sure you're paying attention to all
aspects of your lifestyle.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Such a good point.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
If you're worried about your skin care, you should worry
about your gut care as well, and your tire microbiome.
That's correct, that's such good advice.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
All right.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So tt here's what we learn. Probatics are the good bacteria.
Probiotics are the fiber that feeds them. Post Biotics are
the byproducts, the useful leftovers out of those bacteria, and symbiotics, well,
that's a burger fries. It's a combo meal.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
But the big takeaway your microbiome matter is not just
for your gut, but for your skin, mood, even your sleep.
And while the science is still catching up on exactly
how to optimize it, we know this fiber is your friend.
Probiotics can help, but not all blends are created equal,
and your lifestyle, sleep, stress, exercise, all that affects your microbiome.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
So whether you're here for the yogurt, komuncha or the skincare,
just remember that bacteria more than just germs. They might
be your body's best kept secret.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
See y'all next time.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Special thanks to Doctor Raj, who can be found to
her website gut Renovation dot net.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast, tt is.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
On X and Instagram at dr Underscore, T s.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
H O, and you can find Takiya at z said So.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Dope Labs is a production of Lemonada Media.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate
producer is Isara Savez.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Dope Labs is sound design, edited and mixed by James Farber.
Leimonada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger.
Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead
is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Original music composed and produced by Taka Yatsuzawa and Alex
sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Lab
is executive produced by US T T Show Dia and
Nikia Wattley.
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