March 30, 2025 • 26 mins
Kendrick came with bars, and Drake clapped back with a lawsuit. That was a move that looked pathetic, but it might’ve exposed the real cracks in the streaming game.
This week, Titi and Zakiya ask big questions about streaming: Who really gets paid? Who controls the charts? And are bots & AI inflating the numbers?
They’re joined by music industry expert Eric Drott to break down the hidden rules of streaming, the rise of click farms, and why owning your masters might be the real power move.
Plus, what today’s up-and-coming musicians should know about AI, algorithms, and why the dream of “going viral” might be more myth than method.
It’s deeper than rap—and it’s messier than you think.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm TT and I'm Zakiah and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. Now,
there's no debate that Kendrick won the rap Beep with Drake.
(00:26):
I mean, hands down. TKO called the Sandman lights out.
Drake is a corpse, okay, and we can't ignore that.
It feels like a real sucker move to.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Issue a lawsuit as soon as you rise up from
the dead.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
But maybe, just maybe those allegations deserve a closer look.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Maybe they do.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
So this week we're diving into the state of streaming.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So what do we know?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I feel like if you've been paying attention to anything,
or if you just remembered downloading songs that say aol
music at the beginning of them, you know, the streaming
services were at one point seen as the saving grace
of the music industry.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, I saw where b York. You remember her mm hmm,
singer song.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I remember what she looked like in those outfits.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Well, so she's like a Swan, she's very edgy.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Okay, Well, she just said streaming is one of the
worst things to ever happen to musicians. The tides have changed, okay,
and so now it's time for us to kind of
change how we're looking at things. So we're putting those
streaming services like the one you know y'all might be
using to listen to us right now, we're putting those
under the microscope. Okay, So what do we want to know? Well,
(01:43):
you know, I know for sure, I'm like, what's going on?
Are the streaming platform is good for the artists or not?
Drake was the king of pop and R and B
and whatever other you know genre he chose, you know,
the genre reggae, the hispanic, oh gosh, everything, all of it,
and so he was dominating Spotify and Apple Music and
(02:03):
now y'all are mad at him.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So, like, you know, my main question is is some
of this just sourenness from public humiliation by Kendrick or
is there actually some merit to his claims. Drake is
really seeming like a poor sport. But maybe he's just
saying the quiet part out loud.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
That's fair. I think that's fair.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
And if everyone is getting so many streams and we're
all listening to their music, why is everybody so grouchy.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Is being number two that much worse than being number one?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Or is the key to actually making it as an
artist having your own masters? Because you know, Maggie Stallion
was talking about that, yup, and some other people have
been too, so like, is that why everybody's a grumpy?
And what lies ahead for streaming? When we consider AI
and bots? I mean, ai've been taken over so many things,
(02:52):
and I mean including Drake.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
We heard that Ai, Drake m h ay y'all.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Taking off everything except the dishes in my sink. Hello, Okay,
nobody's doing this laundry. The laundry just pile up on
the bed. I'm sleeping on top of it. Okay, who's
gonna fold these clothes?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Right?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I think they're using it in the wrong areas. But
that's a lot of questions, and I'm not ashamed of
those squestions. I don't know a lot about all of
this me either, But that's fine because that's just what
Dope Labs is for. Let's jump into the dissection. This week,
we're talking to Professor Eric A.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Drott.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
He's a professor of music at the University of Texas,
Austin and author of streaming music streaming capital. His work
dives into the political economy of music streaming and exploring
how digital music platforms have reshaped the way music is produced, distributed,
and consumed. We'll start with some streaming platforms like Spotify
and Apple Music. They really have revolutionized how we listen
(03:47):
to music. When I look back, it seems like these
services crept up and they were the music industry's way
to recapture a lot of the market after LimeWire and Napster,
which I am guilty of and I think, you know, yes,
somebody is my desktop was smoking with all of my loads.
So when we see how they brought the music industry back,
(04:08):
that's great to see, but at what cost to artists.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So I think it's important to recognize that there are
a lot of positives about the advent of streaming.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
I mean, definitely on the consumer side.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
And if you told me when I was fifteen twenty
years old that you know, in a few years time
you'll be able to just like click a button get
access to anything I have, you know, just been in
heaven at the very thought of it.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
So that's great from the perspective of artists. Creates a
global marketplace.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
So if you blow up, you blow up at a
global level, right, I would.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Think that blowing up at a global level is a
good thing. You know, more people, more streams. When I
was checking the stats, it said that there are over
six hundred and forty million monthly active users on Spotify,
and that Spotify captures the majority of the market, but
Apple is only a couple percent points right behind. That's
(05:01):
a lot of people listening. And if I'm an artist,
I think I like those odds. I'm not really seeing
the problem yet.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
There are several problems of from the perspective of artists.
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
One, there is this phenomenon. It's not new to screaming.
It's known as winner take all markets.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
A good example of the sort of dynamic is something
like a sporting event where we're talking about fractions of
a second, and so like fractions of a second from
you being the world champion to you not even being
on the podium. And so one of the things about
winner take all markets is that you get this dynamic
where these tiny, tiny differences in absolute terms lead to
(05:39):
these massive disparities and relative terms.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Okay, you see in the world of.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Music very vividly, where you know the top artist you
know is going to make basically two times probably like
the next top artists, and then you know it will
go down kind of exponentially from there.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Okay, so this is kind of like when Ricky Bobby
was intelligent to Night saying, if you're not first, your last.
I didn't know that movie had economics in it.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
The more you know, Yep, the Beyonces, the Taylor Swift's,
these are the global superstars who were like doing very
well by the current system. But it drops off Pray radically,
very quickly.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I feel like now Drake's complaints are making a lot
more sense. If you're not number one, your pockets are
being affected. If this is a winner takes all market.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So I mean basically, several months after Not Like Us,
which was kind of the last word in the beef,
It's very hard to see how Drake could come back
after that.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
After that was released, he filed a couple of lawsuits.
I mean the first couple they were like pre litigation.
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Really understand some of the nuances here. They weren't really lawsuits,
but they're like pre litigation, there's something like that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
But Drake dropped those pre litigation submissions and really honed
in on Universal Music Group. That was strange because that's
his label. What's he saying about them?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
It's basically accusing Universal of a few things, one of
which is that they engaged in a defamation against him.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Since you know, essentially Kendrick is.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Calling pedophile, right, and you're saying, that's affirmation that because
Universal agreed to release this right, because they gave the
green light for the supubilis that they are a party
to that defamation.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
So that's part of it.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
But then another part of is that, you know, he's
saying that they did certain things that were either questionable
legality or just playing illegal. I'm not sure, but you know,
definitely dubious.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So this is a legal side from Drake to Universal
Music Group or UMG about Kendrick saying he's a pedophile
and likes young girls. And I mean, T T I
get that, because if that's not true, this SE's and
desist or whatever, you know, stop it, Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Stop that.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
You can tell we're not lawyers, but seriously, separate from
the defamation. What's wrong with UMG? Promoting a song like
they have a vested interest in it doing well.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
So one thing he says, which I think is one
of the most interesting things, He says that you know, UMG,
whitelisted the song, which means that basically, UMG, they have
the right to exclude other people from using it unless
you pay the money, right, And so, like, if I
were a TikToker or a YouTuber, Instagram reals person, I
(08:29):
want to put like this song up there, you know,
basically Universe will come in and block it, right, flag
it saying this has an unauthorized recording here, Okay, But
basically whitelisting is Universal saying no, We're just gonna withdraw
all those copyright protections temporarily because you know, basically one
(08:50):
of the things that the lawsuit sites is all these
reaction videos to the song, right, and basically those would
have been subject to copyright claims from Universal. But you know,
Drake is saying, or Drake's lawyers are saying, like Universal
wanted you know, this to generate buzz, generate like discourse,
(09:11):
and what better medium to do that than like reaction
videos for people, which it's like, you know, oh shit,
what does this guy.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Saying, so put that thing up. You know how on
YouTube sometimes it'll say this head is a copyright claim
or there's music in this that can't be used. Drake
is saying, why didn't y'all put that up for Kendrick
Lamar song exactly?
Speaker 3 (09:30):
And then the other thing he says again like this
is actually technically illegal, you know, he basically says that
they engage in payola, which there have been controversies for
I mean decades, the concern record labels paying. Back in
the day, it was radio stations. Now it's streaming platforms,
and there's actually laws against that. So basically you started
(09:51):
saying that that this is what Universal did in or
to sort of give the song a boost out of
the gates right by sort of artificially inflaming number of streams,
either by using bots or by using click farms or
paying people to stream it, you know, which some.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Of the stuff is outright illegal. All that is like
very questionable.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
If this is illegal, why didn't it blow up even bigger?
Why aren't other artists outraged that UMG is doing this
and that it hurts their streams? Aren't the other labels
outside of UMG? Upset I would be right, or were
people just fixated on the actual beef. Hmm, that's a
(10:48):
good question.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
I Mean the thing is is that, like this is
kind of an open secret that this happens, right, and
it happens with the major labels, right, I mean yes,
a lot of of you know, young up and coming
artists will try to use bots or paid streams in
order to give their stuff a boost and get a
(11:10):
bit of traction, bit of visibility.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
One of the hardest things about streaming platforms is like
getting heard because there's just so much music. I mean,
this is going back to like, what are the problems
streaming platforms? That's a big one, right, because it's just
so hard to break through. But you know, even though
for the past few years, you know, all the major
labels and a bunch of other stakeholders have been you know,
making a hue and cry about you know, the problem
(11:35):
streaming fraud and how there has to be a crackdowns
about this, you know, there's anecdotal evidence. I mean I've
heard from pretty reliable sources who have worked for major
labels that this is something that they have at least
engaged in the past. I won't be surprised if they
still engage in it in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
So Drake is kind of onto something and highlighting a
problem that you're saying is kind of systemic. It's not
just a personal thing, it's it's something that has been
going on for a long time that does cause issues.
So do you think that these actions, the lawsuits and
the refilings and everything like that, are ultimately going to
(12:15):
do more harm to his reputation than good for the
music industry?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, no, definitely. I mean it looks bad. I mean,
I'm sorry, like it just like, I'm no expert in rappies,
so this is like to me, this looks pathetic, right,
I mean it looks sad. But you know, I you know,
I mean, Kendrick just to play the Super Bowls, right like,
I mean, like, you know, I don't know how much
(12:41):
more attention like can be drought to this song. But
you know, well, okay, fine, you know you're accusing UMG
of using these questionable methods, methods of questionable legality.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
To boost Kendrick. You're also a universal heart, right.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, I mean we can put to you know, you
may have benefit from this in the past.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
You probably have benefit from this in the.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
When he was beefing with Meek Mill, probably yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Or or just for any song that he's released, right,
you know.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I mean, and there have been cases like I remember, oh,
I can't remember which album it was, but like they
had the entire Drake takeover of Spot five's homepage, where
like every playlist had his picture on it, and wow,
you know, like so it's like I want to listen to,
oh no, like Beethoven and so like a picture of
Drake's on it, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
A minute, Yeah, what's happening?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Is Beethoven black?
Speaker 4 (13:41):
That's also a debate.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
We'll bring you back again for that one.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
The thing to remember, right is that these platforms are
really dependent upon the major mabel's catalogs in many ways, right,
And it's not just like the current catalog like what's
popular right now, which obviously they dominate, but also the
massive back catalogs.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
It doesn't really make sense to call like Universal Record
label because what it is is like kind of a
holding company for all these smaller.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Labels that it's acquired over the years.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
So jazz labels like VERV, labels like Island Records, which
really s all the like Bob Marley recordings in the
nineteen seventies, Interscope right, big hip hop label, and the
list goes on. You know, platforms really rely on all
that music. You know that these major labels have managed
to gobble up over the decades, and so that means
(14:39):
that they will basically do things in order to appease
the labels.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
You're helping us really understand, because I think too often
people are talking about the streaming platforms as being the
big dogs here, but really the record labels with these
extensive catalogs, like, somebody's got to populate your platform, so
they have the ball and if you want them to
stay in, you want them to keep playing. And so
it does feel like this kind of tug of war
of power or the recording each other to keep music
(15:07):
streaming as we know it. Yeah, and that also makes
me think about how some artists own their own masters.
So Steve Stout has been a vocal advocate for artists
owning their own masters. Artists like Jay z Rihanna, Frank
ocean U two, they own their own masters. And then
we see stories like Taylor Swift where she comes out
with Taylor's version because Scooter Braun owns her masters, and
(15:30):
Jojo also came up put her album from back in
the day so that she could own those masters. Can
you talk a little bit about that and is this
a realistic solution for most artists or does it only
benefit those at the top?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I think obviously it's better to own the masters than
not to own the masters. And this is obviously one
of the main ways at the record labels. Why have
they become so powerful, right, is because the additions of
getting access to a the funding that you know, record
label usually provides in the form of an advance and
be then the marketing and the promotion that you know,
(16:11):
especially major labels are able to provide. The sort of
cost of all that is that you usually have to
sign away your rights. This isn't just restricted to the
music industry. I don't own the rights to either of
the books I've written. Doesn't really matter since they're not
making any money anyways. That's part for the course for
academic books. But you know, it does become very consequential
when we're talking about valuable music rights.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
That's a tricky trade off though, because how can you
see into the future, Like I got my masters, but
maybe I needed that marketing and promotion.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
The thing is, it's in a lot of cases, for
the overwhelming majority of artists, you may own your rights,
but they may not be worth very much because you
didn't break through, right, And this gets back to that
question the winner take all kind of nature of music
economies in general.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Okay, I want to rewind is something you mentioned earlier
because you briefly mentioned this FBI case where this guy
he uses AI to make music. Then he gets all
these bots to stream this music that he's making with AI,
and he makes well, he should have made like millions
of dollars. Yes, yes, and so considering this case, but
(17:38):
also considering this technology in a winner takes all market
I feel like he carved out a pretty good spot
for himself. I mean, aside from jail that might need ahead,
not a good spot. How do you see AI and
technology kind of shaping the music industry even further? You know,
especially as we think about these metrics, and one of
(17:58):
the known or unknown knowns is that like all these
streaming numbers, this stuff is not as reliable as it seems.
So people are bragging about being number one, but that
might not even be real platform to platform.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, and we don't even get much visibility.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, So what do you think this means? What do
you think is next? What do you think we're gonna see.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
More of this?
Speaker 3 (18:18):
I think one of the things that at least right
now is a comfort probably for a lot of artists
is that even the most sophisticated AI generators and music
that produce is still pretty right, and so you know,
I don't think there's much competition, and like people listen
to music for all kinds of reasons. Just as important,
i'd say in a lot of cases is like a
(18:39):
sense of connection with the artists, right, So.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
You don't have that with like AI generating music. Right.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
So I think that the idea that this is going
to like displace artists is you know premature. Let's say,
I mean, who knows what's going to happen ten twenty
years from now, but I think right now, I think
I think one thing also to bear in minds, like
when we talk about AI, we can be referencing all
kinds some different things. I think a lot of times
people think about you know, AI generate songs, it could
(19:06):
also mean things like the sort of vocal clones.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Right, So there's the Fake.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Drake song that came out almost two years ago now
Hard on my Sleeve, which was kind of the big
wake up call for the industry that this technology had
reached a certain point where you could have somebody basically,
you know, create a track and use one of these
vocal masks in order to like emulate the sound and
(19:32):
style of like a major artist. You know, I think
it's telling there that we haven't had any other kind
of big breakout moments since then, right, And it's not
like the technology's bad, it's it's like it's kind of gimmicky.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
I Saebob sing Luther Vandra style, and I was like,
I'm not convinced that SpongeBob Patrick.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Yes, Patrick, I think there are two main concerned So
that one is that already when you look at the
catalogs or the databases of these major platforms, you know,
the number of tracks.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
That they have is absolutely eye watering, right, Like, I
mean Spotify has over one hundred million tracks. And you know,
we were talking before about how hard it is to
get heard, right, and if people are uploading forty thousand
tracks a day, right, it just makes it all the
more difficult to break through. And you know, maybe some
(20:32):
portion of those are AI generated block but it doesn't matter.
It's just adding to the noise that you have to
get past. So that's one problem. I think the other
problem is, like it's a little more indirect. So about
two years ago, the head of UMG Loosing Range, comes
out with like a letter that he publishes just this
(20:55):
sort of state of the union for the music industry,
and he said streaming has been great, helping the record
industry get back on his feet, but the revenue sharing
model is broken. And he cited the fact that you know,
there's just so much garbage now populating streaming platforms. You know,
all the white noise playlists to help you sleep, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Which, Yes I'm playing this, yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
I'm a fan.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
But he cited AI generated music right, AI slop right.
And so basically what UMG started pushing is what they
call artists centric model, where it's basically, in order to
get any kind of payment from a streaming platform, you'd
have to pass a certain kind of threshold of monthly listeners, right,
(21:43):
and a certain number of listeners listening to your music, right,
and so like if you only get nine hundred and
ninety nine streams one month. Right, you're not a real
artist acquarding to this, right, which you know, like there
are a lot of like musicians working in more obscure yeah,
genres that you know, they're not pulling in huge numbers,
(22:06):
but they may be super talented musicians.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
So you know, AI in this case is being.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Used as a kind of pretext in order to like
restructure the way in which streaming economies work.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I don't like that though.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Well, you know, the music industry, in the podcast industry
is not sounded so different. I don't know who wrote
the letter for podcasting this year, but take away some
of the microphones. Not ours, but some other people. We've
gotten a lot from you to think about, and it's
really got our brains going.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
We are lovers of music, like.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Zakia, and our friendship has introduced me to a lot
of music. Now I'm trying to think of somebody you
put me onto I can think as a win and
it's actually relevant right now too. Our homegirl, Rachel Lizzy.
She just got roasted on the internet for not liking
Anita Baker. But you know, when I first met you,
you didn't know the difference between Nita Baker and Josephine Baker.
(23:02):
I said, do you want to hear some Anita Baker?
And she said, is that the lady with the bananas?
And I almost lost it. But as soon as I
realized who Anita Baker was, I am now I'm a fan.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I love her. Bake me up, I love it. She
is just chefs kissed.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
She is on every playlist that I have that to
get me in the right mood.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
And so I'm very grateful to z A Kia for that.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
And we're very thankful to you, Professor Drot, for explaining
all of this because t T we really didn't know
what was going on. No, we just knew that we
were team Kendrick and that was but now we know
that it might be a little bit deeper than rap.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
So yeah, it's good to know.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
All this talk about music is making me think about
my favorite songs right now, tit. You know, I always
want to know what you're listening to, go ahead and
give it to me what you're feeling right now? Okay,
So honestly, it's the entire Chromacopeia album by Tyler the creator.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
H Lyrically, it's just perfect.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I feel like the way that Tyler raps and the
things that he raps about speaks directly to me. There's
so many good one liners. I feel like I quote
him on a daily basis. So, Yes, that is the
music that makes me happy currently. I like it. I
like it and pretty much everything by boss Man Dilo.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, what about j Zee? What are you liking right now?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I think right now I am in I'm definitely in
my love Girl era. Okay, So I've been listening to
all the R and B and I liked this artist
a while back. When we were in New Orleans for Suspith,
we saw Ombre and there's a song Ambre has that's
called Superstitious. I just saw her live recently at City
(24:59):
Wannery and she sang it in like it's been my jam.
So Superstitious and all kinds of other stuff, and bre
Dustin Conrad Fabo Destin Conrad, a sleeper, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Super sleeper.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Also Leon Thomas, Leon Thomas. There's more than just mut
I know y'all are using this Instagram. There's more than
being used a lot. There's more than mud. Yes is
a very good song though. Okay, so we've talked about
our favorite music, but we want to know y'all's favorite music.
Make sure you send us a message, a comment, a
DM letting us know what you're listening to right now
(25:34):
and make it good because we love a good playlist. Yes,
you can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast, tt is on X and Instagram at d
(25:55):
R Underscore T s h O, and you can find
Zakiya at Z said So. Dope Labs is a production
of Lamanada Media. Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour
and our associate producer is Usara Savez. Dope Labs is
sound designed, edited and mixed by James Farber. Limanada Media's
(26:15):
Vice President of Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger. Executive
producer from iHeart podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead is
Alison Canter. Original music composed and produced by Takayasuzawa and
Alex sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope
Labs is executive produced by us T T Show Dia
(26:37):
and Zakia Wattley.
I'm TT and I'm Zakiah and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. Now,
there's no debate that Kendrick won the rap Beep with Drake.
(00:26):
I mean, hands down. TKO called the Sandman lights out.
Drake is a corpse, okay, and we can't ignore that.
It feels like a real sucker move to.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Issue a lawsuit as soon as you rise up from
the dead.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
But maybe, just maybe those allegations deserve a closer look.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Maybe they do.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
So this week we're diving into the state of streaming.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So what do we know?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I feel like if you've been paying attention to anything,
or if you just remembered downloading songs that say aol
music at the beginning of them, you know, the streaming
services were at one point seen as the saving grace
of the music industry.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, I saw where b York. You remember her mm hmm,
singer song.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I remember what she looked like in those outfits.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Well, so she's like a Swan, she's very edgy.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Okay, Well, she just said streaming is one of the
worst things to ever happen to musicians. The tides have changed, okay,
and so now it's time for us to kind of
change how we're looking at things. So we're putting those
streaming services like the one you know y'all might be
using to listen to us right now, we're putting those
under the microscope. Okay, So what do we want to know? Well,
(01:43):
you know, I know for sure, I'm like, what's going on?
Are the streaming platform is good for the artists or not?
Drake was the king of pop and R and B
and whatever other you know genre he chose, you know,
the genre reggae, the hispanic, oh gosh, everything, all of it,
and so he was dominating Spotify and Apple Music and
(02:03):
now y'all are mad at him.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So, like, you know, my main question is is some
of this just sourenness from public humiliation by Kendrick or
is there actually some merit to his claims. Drake is
really seeming like a poor sport. But maybe he's just
saying the quiet part out loud.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
That's fair. I think that's fair.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
And if everyone is getting so many streams and we're
all listening to their music, why is everybody so grouchy.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Is being number two that much worse than being number one?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Or is the key to actually making it as an
artist having your own masters? Because you know, Maggie Stallion
was talking about that, yup, and some other people have
been too, so like, is that why everybody's a grumpy?
And what lies ahead for streaming? When we consider AI
and bots? I mean, ai've been taken over so many things,
(02:52):
and I mean including Drake.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
We heard that Ai, Drake m h ay y'all.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Taking off everything except the dishes in my sink. Hello, Okay,
nobody's doing this laundry. The laundry just pile up on
the bed. I'm sleeping on top of it. Okay, who's
gonna fold these clothes?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Right?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I think they're using it in the wrong areas. But
that's a lot of questions, and I'm not ashamed of
those squestions. I don't know a lot about all of
this me either, But that's fine because that's just what
Dope Labs is for. Let's jump into the dissection. This week,
we're talking to Professor Eric A.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Drott.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
He's a professor of music at the University of Texas,
Austin and author of streaming music streaming capital. His work
dives into the political economy of music streaming and exploring
how digital music platforms have reshaped the way music is produced, distributed,
and consumed. We'll start with some streaming platforms like Spotify
and Apple Music. They really have revolutionized how we listen
(03:47):
to music. When I look back, it seems like these
services crept up and they were the music industry's way
to recapture a lot of the market after LimeWire and Napster,
which I am guilty of and I think, you know, yes,
somebody is my desktop was smoking with all of my loads.
So when we see how they brought the music industry back,
(04:08):
that's great to see, but at what cost to artists.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So I think it's important to recognize that there are
a lot of positives about the advent of streaming.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
I mean, definitely on the consumer side.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
And if you told me when I was fifteen twenty
years old that you know, in a few years time
you'll be able to just like click a button get
access to anything I have, you know, just been in
heaven at the very thought of it.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
So that's great from the perspective of artists. Creates a
global marketplace.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
So if you blow up, you blow up at a
global level, right, I would.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Think that blowing up at a global level is a
good thing. You know, more people, more streams. When I
was checking the stats, it said that there are over
six hundred and forty million monthly active users on Spotify,
and that Spotify captures the majority of the market, but
Apple is only a couple percent points right behind. That's
(05:01):
a lot of people listening. And if I'm an artist,
I think I like those odds. I'm not really seeing
the problem yet.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
There are several problems of from the perspective of artists.
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
One, there is this phenomenon. It's not new to screaming.
It's known as winner take all markets.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
A good example of the sort of dynamic is something
like a sporting event where we're talking about fractions of
a second, and so like fractions of a second from
you being the world champion to you not even being
on the podium. And so one of the things about
winner take all markets is that you get this dynamic
where these tiny, tiny differences in absolute terms lead to
(05:39):
these massive disparities and relative terms.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Okay, you see in the world of.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Music very vividly, where you know the top artist you
know is going to make basically two times probably like
the next top artists, and then you know it will
go down kind of exponentially from there.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Okay, so this is kind of like when Ricky Bobby
was intelligent to Night saying, if you're not first, your last.
I didn't know that movie had economics in it.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
The more you know, Yep, the Beyonces, the Taylor Swift's,
these are the global superstars who were like doing very
well by the current system. But it drops off Pray radically,
very quickly.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I feel like now Drake's complaints are making a lot
more sense. If you're not number one, your pockets are
being affected. If this is a winner takes all market.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So I mean basically, several months after Not Like Us,
which was kind of the last word in the beef,
It's very hard to see how Drake could come back
after that.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
After that was released, he filed a couple of lawsuits.
I mean the first couple they were like pre litigation.
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Really understand some of the nuances here. They weren't really lawsuits,
but they're like pre litigation, there's something like that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
But Drake dropped those pre litigation submissions and really honed
in on Universal Music Group. That was strange because that's
his label. What's he saying about them?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
It's basically accusing Universal of a few things, one of
which is that they engaged in a defamation against him.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Since you know, essentially Kendrick is.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Calling pedophile, right, and you're saying, that's affirmation that because
Universal agreed to release this right, because they gave the
green light for the supubilis that they are a party
to that defamation.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
So that's part of it.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
But then another part of is that, you know, he's
saying that they did certain things that were either questionable
legality or just playing illegal. I'm not sure, but you know,
definitely dubious.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So this is a legal side from Drake to Universal
Music Group or UMG about Kendrick saying he's a pedophile
and likes young girls. And I mean, T T I
get that, because if that's not true, this SE's and
desist or whatever, you know, stop it, Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Stop that.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
You can tell we're not lawyers, but seriously, separate from
the defamation. What's wrong with UMG? Promoting a song like
they have a vested interest in it doing well.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
So one thing he says, which I think is one
of the most interesting things, He says that you know, UMG,
whitelisted the song, which means that basically, UMG, they have
the right to exclude other people from using it unless
you pay the money, right, And so, like, if I
were a TikToker or a YouTuber, Instagram reals person, I
(08:29):
want to put like this song up there, you know,
basically Universe will come in and block it, right, flag
it saying this has an unauthorized recording here, Okay, But
basically whitelisting is Universal saying no, We're just gonna withdraw
all those copyright protections temporarily because you know, basically one
(08:50):
of the things that the lawsuit sites is all these
reaction videos to the song, right, and basically those would
have been subject to copyright claims from Universal. But you know,
Drake is saying, or Drake's lawyers are saying, like Universal
wanted you know, this to generate buzz, generate like discourse,
(09:11):
and what better medium to do that than like reaction
videos for people, which it's like, you know, oh shit,
what does this guy.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Saying, so put that thing up. You know how on
YouTube sometimes it'll say this head is a copyright claim
or there's music in this that can't be used. Drake
is saying, why didn't y'all put that up for Kendrick
Lamar song exactly?
Speaker 3 (09:30):
And then the other thing he says again like this
is actually technically illegal, you know, he basically says that
they engage in payola, which there have been controversies for
I mean decades, the concern record labels paying. Back in
the day, it was radio stations. Now it's streaming platforms,
and there's actually laws against that. So basically you started
(09:51):
saying that that this is what Universal did in or
to sort of give the song a boost out of
the gates right by sort of artificially inflaming number of streams,
either by using bots or by using click farms or
paying people to stream it, you know, which some.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Of the stuff is outright illegal. All that is like
very questionable.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
If this is illegal, why didn't it blow up even bigger?
Why aren't other artists outraged that UMG is doing this
and that it hurts their streams? Aren't the other labels
outside of UMG? Upset I would be right, or were
people just fixated on the actual beef. Hmm, that's a
(10:48):
good question.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
I Mean the thing is is that, like this is
kind of an open secret that this happens, right, and
it happens with the major labels, right, I mean yes,
a lot of of you know, young up and coming
artists will try to use bots or paid streams in
order to give their stuff a boost and get a
(11:10):
bit of traction, bit of visibility.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
One of the hardest things about streaming platforms is like
getting heard because there's just so much music. I mean,
this is going back to like, what are the problems
streaming platforms? That's a big one, right, because it's just
so hard to break through. But you know, even though
for the past few years, you know, all the major
labels and a bunch of other stakeholders have been you know,
making a hue and cry about you know, the problem
(11:35):
streaming fraud and how there has to be a crackdowns
about this, you know, there's anecdotal evidence. I mean I've
heard from pretty reliable sources who have worked for major
labels that this is something that they have at least
engaged in the past. I won't be surprised if they
still engage in it in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
So Drake is kind of onto something and highlighting a
problem that you're saying is kind of systemic. It's not
just a personal thing, it's it's something that has been
going on for a long time that does cause issues.
So do you think that these actions, the lawsuits and
the refilings and everything like that, are ultimately going to
(12:15):
do more harm to his reputation than good for the
music industry?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, no, definitely. I mean it looks bad. I mean,
I'm sorry, like it just like, I'm no expert in rappies,
so this is like to me, this looks pathetic, right,
I mean it looks sad. But you know, I you know,
I mean, Kendrick just to play the Super Bowls, right like,
I mean, like, you know, I don't know how much
(12:41):
more attention like can be drought to this song. But
you know, well, okay, fine, you know you're accusing UMG
of using these questionable methods, methods of questionable legality.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
To boost Kendrick. You're also a universal heart, right.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, I mean we can put to you know, you
may have benefit from this in the past.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
You probably have benefit from this in the.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
When he was beefing with Meek Mill, probably yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Or or just for any song that he's released, right,
you know.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I mean, and there have been cases like I remember, oh,
I can't remember which album it was, but like they
had the entire Drake takeover of Spot five's homepage, where
like every playlist had his picture on it, and wow,
you know, like so it's like I want to listen to,
oh no, like Beethoven and so like a picture of
Drake's on it, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
A minute, Yeah, what's happening?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Is Beethoven black?
Speaker 4 (13:41):
That's also a debate.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
We'll bring you back again for that one.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
The thing to remember, right is that these platforms are
really dependent upon the major mabel's catalogs in many ways, right,
And it's not just like the current catalog like what's
popular right now, which obviously they dominate, but also the
massive back catalogs.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
It doesn't really make sense to call like Universal Record
label because what it is is like kind of a
holding company for all these smaller.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Labels that it's acquired over the years.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
So jazz labels like VERV, labels like Island Records, which
really s all the like Bob Marley recordings in the
nineteen seventies, Interscope right, big hip hop label, and the
list goes on. You know, platforms really rely on all
that music. You know that these major labels have managed
to gobble up over the decades, and so that means
(14:39):
that they will basically do things in order to appease
the labels.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
You're helping us really understand, because I think too often
people are talking about the streaming platforms as being the
big dogs here, but really the record labels with these
extensive catalogs, like, somebody's got to populate your platform, so
they have the ball and if you want them to
stay in, you want them to keep playing. And so
it does feel like this kind of tug of war
of power or the recording each other to keep music
(15:07):
streaming as we know it. Yeah, and that also makes
me think about how some artists own their own masters.
So Steve Stout has been a vocal advocate for artists
owning their own masters. Artists like Jay z Rihanna, Frank
ocean U two, they own their own masters. And then
we see stories like Taylor Swift where she comes out
with Taylor's version because Scooter Braun owns her masters, and
(15:30):
Jojo also came up put her album from back in
the day so that she could own those masters. Can
you talk a little bit about that and is this
a realistic solution for most artists or does it only
benefit those at the top?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I think obviously it's better to own the masters than
not to own the masters. And this is obviously one
of the main ways at the record labels. Why have
they become so powerful, right, is because the additions of
getting access to a the funding that you know, record
label usually provides in the form of an advance and
be then the marketing and the promotion that you know,
(16:11):
especially major labels are able to provide. The sort of
cost of all that is that you usually have to
sign away your rights. This isn't just restricted to the
music industry. I don't own the rights to either of
the books I've written. Doesn't really matter since they're not
making any money anyways. That's part for the course for
academic books. But you know, it does become very consequential
when we're talking about valuable music rights.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
That's a tricky trade off though, because how can you
see into the future, Like I got my masters, but
maybe I needed that marketing and promotion.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
The thing is, it's in a lot of cases, for
the overwhelming majority of artists, you may own your rights,
but they may not be worth very much because you
didn't break through, right, And this gets back to that
question the winner take all kind of nature of music
economies in general.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Okay, I want to rewind is something you mentioned earlier
because you briefly mentioned this FBI case where this guy
he uses AI to make music. Then he gets all
these bots to stream this music that he's making with AI,
and he makes well, he should have made like millions
of dollars. Yes, yes, and so considering this case, but
(17:38):
also considering this technology in a winner takes all market
I feel like he carved out a pretty good spot
for himself. I mean, aside from jail that might need ahead,
not a good spot. How do you see AI and
technology kind of shaping the music industry even further? You know,
especially as we think about these metrics, and one of
(17:58):
the known or unknown knowns is that like all these
streaming numbers, this stuff is not as reliable as it seems.
So people are bragging about being number one, but that
might not even be real platform to platform.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, and we don't even get much visibility.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, So what do you think this means? What do
you think is next? What do you think we're gonna see.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
More of this?
Speaker 3 (18:18):
I think one of the things that at least right
now is a comfort probably for a lot of artists
is that even the most sophisticated AI generators and music
that produce is still pretty right, and so you know,
I don't think there's much competition, and like people listen
to music for all kinds of reasons. Just as important,
i'd say in a lot of cases is like a
(18:39):
sense of connection with the artists, right, So.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
You don't have that with like AI generating music. Right.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
So I think that the idea that this is going
to like displace artists is you know premature. Let's say,
I mean, who knows what's going to happen ten twenty
years from now, but I think right now, I think
I think one thing also to bear in minds, like
when we talk about AI, we can be referencing all
kinds some different things. I think a lot of times
people think about you know, AI generate songs, it could
(19:06):
also mean things like the sort of vocal clones.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Right, So there's the Fake.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Drake song that came out almost two years ago now
Hard on my Sleeve, which was kind of the big
wake up call for the industry that this technology had
reached a certain point where you could have somebody basically,
you know, create a track and use one of these
vocal masks in order to like emulate the sound and
(19:32):
style of like a major artist. You know, I think
it's telling there that we haven't had any other kind
of big breakout moments since then, right, And it's not
like the technology's bad, it's it's like it's kind of gimmicky.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
I Saebob sing Luther Vandra style, and I was like,
I'm not convinced that SpongeBob Patrick.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
Yes, Patrick, I think there are two main concerned So
that one is that already when you look at the
catalogs or the databases of these major platforms, you know,
the number of tracks.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
That they have is absolutely eye watering, right, Like, I
mean Spotify has over one hundred million tracks. And you know,
we were talking before about how hard it is to
get heard, right, and if people are uploading forty thousand
tracks a day, right, it just makes it all the
more difficult to break through. And you know, maybe some
(20:32):
portion of those are AI generated block but it doesn't matter.
It's just adding to the noise that you have to
get past. So that's one problem. I think the other
problem is, like it's a little more indirect. So about
two years ago, the head of UMG Loosing Range, comes
out with like a letter that he publishes just this
(20:55):
sort of state of the union for the music industry,
and he said streaming has been great, helping the record
industry get back on his feet, but the revenue sharing
model is broken. And he cited the fact that you know,
there's just so much garbage now populating streaming platforms. You know,
all the white noise playlists to help you sleep, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Which, Yes I'm playing this, yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
I'm a fan.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
But he cited AI generated music right, AI slop right.
And so basically what UMG started pushing is what they
call artists centric model, where it's basically, in order to
get any kind of payment from a streaming platform, you'd
have to pass a certain kind of threshold of monthly listeners, right,
(21:43):
and a certain number of listeners listening to your music, right,
and so like if you only get nine hundred and
ninety nine streams one month. Right, you're not a real
artist acquarding to this, right, which you know, like there
are a lot of like musicians working in more obscure yeah,
genres that you know, they're not pulling in huge numbers,
(22:06):
but they may be super talented musicians.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:08):
So you know, AI in this case is being.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Used as a kind of pretext in order to like
restructure the way in which streaming economies work.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I don't like that though.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Well, you know, the music industry, in the podcast industry
is not sounded so different. I don't know who wrote
the letter for podcasting this year, but take away some
of the microphones. Not ours, but some other people. We've
gotten a lot from you to think about, and it's
really got our brains going.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
We are lovers of music, like.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Zakia, and our friendship has introduced me to a lot
of music. Now I'm trying to think of somebody you
put me onto I can think as a win and
it's actually relevant right now too. Our homegirl, Rachel Lizzy.
She just got roasted on the internet for not liking
Anita Baker. But you know, when I first met you,
you didn't know the difference between Nita Baker and Josephine Baker.
(23:02):
I said, do you want to hear some Anita Baker?
And she said, is that the lady with the bananas?
And I almost lost it. But as soon as I
realized who Anita Baker was, I am now I'm a fan.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I love her. Bake me up, I love it. She
is just chefs kissed.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
She is on every playlist that I have that to
get me in the right mood.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
And so I'm very grateful to z A Kia for that.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
And we're very thankful to you, Professor Drot, for explaining
all of this because t T we really didn't know
what was going on. No, we just knew that we
were team Kendrick and that was but now we know
that it might be a little bit deeper than rap.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
So yeah, it's good to know.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
All this talk about music is making me think about
my favorite songs right now, tit. You know, I always
want to know what you're listening to, go ahead and
give it to me what you're feeling right now? Okay,
So honestly, it's the entire Chromacopeia album by Tyler the creator.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
H Lyrically, it's just perfect.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I feel like the way that Tyler raps and the
things that he raps about speaks directly to me. There's
so many good one liners. I feel like I quote
him on a daily basis. So, Yes, that is the
music that makes me happy currently. I like it. I
like it and pretty much everything by boss Man Dilo.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, what about j Zee? What are you liking right now?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I think right now I am in I'm definitely in
my love Girl era. Okay, So I've been listening to
all the R and B and I liked this artist
a while back. When we were in New Orleans for Suspith,
we saw Ombre and there's a song Ambre has that's
called Superstitious. I just saw her live recently at City
(24:59):
Wannery and she sang it in like it's been my jam.
So Superstitious and all kinds of other stuff, and bre
Dustin Conrad Fabo Destin Conrad, a sleeper, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Super sleeper.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Also Leon Thomas, Leon Thomas. There's more than just mut
I know y'all are using this Instagram. There's more than
being used a lot. There's more than mud. Yes is
a very good song though. Okay, so we've talked about
our favorite music, but we want to know y'all's favorite music.
Make sure you send us a message, a comment, a
DM letting us know what you're listening to right now
(25:34):
and make it good because we love a good playlist. Yes,
you can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast, tt is on X and Instagram at d
(25:55):
R Underscore T s h O, and you can find
Zakiya at Z said So. Dope Labs is a production
of Lamanada Media. Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour
and our associate producer is Usara Savez. Dope Labs is
sound designed, edited and mixed by James Farber. Limanada Media's
(26:15):
Vice President of Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger. Executive
producer from iHeart podcast is Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead is
Alison Canter. Original music composed and produced by Takayasuzawa and
Alex sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope
Labs is executive produced by us T T Show Dia
(26:37):
and Zakia Wattley.
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