April 20, 2025 • 28 mins
Measles was declared eliminated in the U.S. in 2000—but it’s making headlines again. In this lab, we dig into why this highly contagious virus is resurfacing in places like West Texas. Plus, we talk about who’s most at risk, why public health experts are sounding the alarm, and how to separate medical fact from misinformation (yes, we’re looking at you, cod liver oil).
Titi and Zakiya are joined by epidemiologist and public health expert Dr. Katelyn Jetelina to help break it all down.
Stay up to date with us on Instagram at @DopeLabsPodcast and at DopeLabsPodcast.com
Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our show. Subscribe today at bit.ly/lemonadapremium.
Click this link for a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this show and all Lemonada shows: lemonadamedia.com/sponsors
To follow along with a transcript, go to lemonadamedia.com/show/ shortly after the air date.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, y'all, we're not trying to scare you. But someone
with the measles was on the DC Metro, the Amtrak
and at the airport planes trains and automobiles, and public
health officials were like, hey, heads up.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I know that kind of alert. Yeah, you don't get it.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
For the flu, you don't get it for COVID anymore.
And yeah, so that made us really pay attention.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yes, and we've talked about measles before, back in our
Protection Neck episode when there was a scare, but it
was mostly out West and now it seems like it's
here again. It's in West Texas, it's in hospitals, and
it's all up in my headlines that I'm reading on
the web. So the main thing I know is that
it's not just a rash. I heard.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
It can be brain swelling and immune amnesia in kids
that are too young to get vaccinated. I didn't even
know that was a possibility before this lab. So if
you're like me, don't worry. We are your good science friends.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I'm TT and I'm Zachiah, and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
Let's jump into the recitation. What do we know?
Speaker 1 (01:22):
We talk a lot about viruses on the show, but
the measles feels like one that people put in the
old news category. But it's very much back, and we've
been seeing it all over the news. I lived just
outside of DC and they were saying somebody was on
the Metro and on the Amtrak and at the airport
and it's really stressing me out. And it's okay to
(01:45):
be stressed out because measles used to be the leading
cause of childhood death.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
But oh how quickly we forget. You remember, like in
old movies they would have these huge families and they
will always be like such a such sibling died as
a baby or a toddler. It probably was the measles.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Cholera was not the only thing killing people in that
Oregon Trail game.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
And in real life. Dude, I know I got my
MMR measles, mumps and rubella years ago. But I know
I got it because it was required for school, Okay, right,
an today that means most other people did too, right.
But here's what we want to know.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
If the vaccines work, why is measles coming back?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Right? How did we get here again? And now that
we're here, how dangerous is it really? Like? How do
we cut through the noise and you know, people saying
this is what you should take, you should worry about
this or don't worry about it. How do we figure
out what we need to know to protect ourselves and
folks in our communities? Right?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So, to help us break it all down, we're talking
to doctor Caitlyn Jeddalina. All right, let's jump into the dissection.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
My name is Caitlyn Jeddelina.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I'm an epidemiologist and founder and author of a public
health newsletter called Your Our Local Epidemiologist.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Thank you for joining us. We are so excited to
hear from you.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Let's start with the basics. What exactly is the measles
and how does it spread? And can we compare it
to other contagious diseases so that people can get like
an understanding of how contagious it is.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Yeah, So, measles is a virus and it has been
around forever and it used to cause about five hundred
to one thousand deaths per year before a vaccine, many
many many infections, I mean some years we're up to
six hundred thousand infections. And then with the introduction of
(03:41):
sanitation as well as a medicine as well as an
MMR vaccine, we really saw almost the disappearance of measles
within the United States. In two thousand, it was eliminated.
We got an elimination status, meaning it wasn't spreading.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Everywhere like fluid does or covid does.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
Now. In fact, we would just get sporadic cases. And
you're right, I mean this year it is coming in hot.
Backing up on the measles. You know, measles is spread
through the air. It is the most contagious virus there
is on earth. So for one infected person, they can
(04:22):
infect about eighteen other unvaccinated people. It can live in
the air for hours, and so that's why people at
the Metro or Amtrak were worried. Rightfully so, because measles
can stay up in the air for about two to
three hours after the person has left, and so really
(04:44):
a virus we don't want to play around, I will say,
you know, the vast majority of people do just okay.
It is just quote unquote a rash to them. The
problem is it's like playing Russian roulette or if you're not vaccinated,
because it's also it can be a nasty virus. We're
talking about brain swelling, we're talking about hearing loss. There's
(05:08):
this thing called immune amnesia with measles, which means that
even if you survive a measles infection, it wipes your
immune memory from other viruses. So what we see is
that after a measles infection, you can die five ten
years later from flu because it wiped your memory of
flu out.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
And then of course there's death.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
And we've already seen two dusts this year in the
United States. So yeah, not something I want to mess
around with.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Oh my gosh, you said that most people fear.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Okay, when you say people, are you talking kids included?
We're seeing outbreaks with children, particularly in West Texas and
places where we see people are not vaccinated. When you
say people, do you mean everybody?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
So like we learned during COVID, and I love this
question because it makes my public health heart happy, is
that risk is not uniform. So the people that are
hit the hardest by measles if they have no protection,
are the youngest. So right now, in this massive measles
outbreak in West Texas. The vast majority of cases are
school age children. Their little immune systems just can't handle
(06:16):
this nasty virus replicating within their system very well, as
well as older people are compromised, so kind of both
of the spectrums of the age.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And so that's what we've seen.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
We've seen one death and a six year old, and
one death and an older unvaccinated adult, and so that's
not too surprising, Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Zakia's background is in genetics and genomics, so she knows
a lot about this stuff. My background is an engineering.
I don't know anything about this. And so when I
hear you say it was eliminated in a two thousand,
I'm like, right, twenty five years ago.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Why is it back?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Anything that has been eliminated for me is no longer returning.
Lots of ex boyfriends and things like that. What is
happening with measles? Why is it beck like the bad
ex that just keeps texting you.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
There's a multitude of reasons, but I think the biggest
one is that vaccines are a victim of their success.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
We just have general amnesia right now. A lot of
us have never seen measles. Physicians have never treated measles before, right,
and so a lot of parents don't know why this
virus is bad. May think it's just like a rash,
like maybe chicken pox or something, and it's really something
a whole lot more dangerous, and so there's that amnesia.
(07:36):
There's this rise of individualism, particularly we're seeing the decline
in vaccine exemptions and a lot of states because of
this individual choice freedom for sort of movement. There's this
new information ecosystem which is called social media, and it
(07:56):
is chaos there. There's so many hot takes and bad
takes as well as just lots of trust and institutions
right now as well, and so as creating this perfect storm.
The reason we're seeing it with measles instead of like
polio coming back or you know, others, is because it's
so contagious, like it's usually the first building block we lose.
(08:21):
Because of its contagiousness, we need a really high heard
immunity level, which is about ninety five percent to stop it,
and right now we're about ninety two percent on a
national level, and that's why we're seeing it now.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
That's a really good point, caitln You're saying, we go
from ninety five percent to ninety two percent, And I
know to most people listening, they're like, that's still an.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
A It is.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
But I think in the same way that you said,
risk is not the same across categories for people, vaccination
uptake is not the same. It's not evinly distributed across
the country. And so I'd love for you to tell
us a little bit more about how that unequal distribution
puts herd immunity at risk for people.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Oh my god, I love your guys as questions. You're right,
that is absolutely right. So ninety two percent seems very high.
It is very high, right, it's a great number, But
there's vast variability at a hyper local level, which means
that there are just really there's pockets in counties and
(09:26):
states across the United States that have really low vaccination rates.
So the average is ninety two percent, but there's a
lot far under. The least vaccinated state is Idaho seventy
nine percent MMR vaccination rate. And even if we keep
going hyper local into some counties like Gaines County where
(09:47):
this outbreak happened, like in certain counties in New York,
I mean certain counties in California where I am I
mean vaccination rates get down to like fourteen twenty percent,
and remember we need a ninety five percent level. And
so these pockets measles just runs like wildfire when they
find it. And that's what we're seeing in East Texas
(10:07):
right now. It's what we saw in New York in
twenty nineteen, and it's what we saw at Disneyland in
twenty sixteen, and so.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
It's just that's what's happening.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
The other thing that's happening right now is not just
measles finding those unvaccinated pockets, but a lot of sparks
going off across the United States, and these are called
sporadic cases from international travel. And the problem with a
lot more sparks is that the more probability of them
finding an unvaccinated pocket. And so we kind of see
the two happening at the same time.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So the MMR vaccine measles, mumps and rubella vaccine has
been around for a long time since like the sixties,
and what I felt like was that it offers lifelong protection.
But there's also a lot of confusion about like boosters.
If you're over sixty something, then maybe you'll need to
(11:14):
get another one. How strong is the defense when you
have the vaccine. And two, what should people be considering
now that measles is starting to reseurge and their vaccine status.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Yeah, so the MMR vaccine is incredibly durable, and you're right,
we kind of make the assumption that it is lifetime protection.
This is very different than like flu right where we
need a vaccine every year or covid or a vaccine
every year. And the reason for that is this is
just a very different virus. It hasn't really changed since
the nineteen sixties, and so we can just use the
(11:50):
two dose there is and so people are very well
protected if you're up to date on vaccines ninety seven
percent effectiveness. There's a group before nineteen fifty seven that
didn't get measles vaccines because measles was widespread then, and
so it's assumed that everyone born before nineteen fifty seven
were naturally exposed and have immunity, and I think that's
(12:14):
a good assumption. There's one exception of a group that
needs a booster right now, and those are born between
nineteen sixty three and nineteen sixty seven, And the reason
for that is during those short three years, Uh, most
people received a dead virus vaccine, let's just say, and
(12:37):
it's not as effective as what we have today, and
so they may need a booster.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I was just talking as a key about this because
I go to pilates and I go early in the morning.
So it's a lot of older women there. Shout out
to them though, and one woman said, if you're between
ages of sixty three and sixty eight, you have to
go get a booster. But that's not what it is.
If you were born between nineteen sixty three and nineteen
(13:05):
sixty seven, then you really need to be thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
That's wow. You see how this misinformation travels.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Ugh confusing too, and then you're like why those years,
Like why what happens if I don't have a record
of measles or vaccination? And that's why it's really just
best for people to talk to their physician, because even
if they don't have a record of it, there's very
little harm in getting these vaccines.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
It may just make sense to get a booster. Nonetheless,
if you don't.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Know, I looked at the vaccine schedule, and I know
the first dose is at one year or a year
and a half, and the second dose is when you're
between four and six. What about the kids that are
in between that. So, let's say you have a child
that's three years old and they've only received one dose.
Should parents be concerned or is the one dose good enough?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Good question?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
So, and I want to out highly what you're saying too,
is that you're right. Kids can only get their first
dose at twelve months old. That's the purpose of herd immunity, right,
is we protect people that can't get protected, and that
includes infants under twelve months, it includes immune compromise, et cetera.
But you're right, they get their first dose at twelve
months and then that just that first dose is ninety
(14:21):
three percent effective, So like you're pretty darn well effective.
The second dose is really for those entering kindergarten, for example,
where measle spreads easily. It's not technically a booster, but
it does help cover the seven percent of people that
didn't respond to that first dose. And so without that
(14:42):
second dose there's gaps and immunity that can feel outbreaks. Now,
I will say, if you have a three year old
and you're in West Texas in the middle of this
hot zone, they can get the second MMR vaccine. Actually
you only need twenty eight days between both do and
this flexibility is actually very useful in outbreak areas where
(15:05):
kids could get a second dose. I will say, though,
the longer the interval generally strengthens the immunity, and so
that's why we wait a couple more years. But really
it's not a detrimental thing to get it earlier.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
There's a lot of misinformation, not just on social media,
but even from government officials like RFK Junior, who is
now the new head of Health and Human Services or AHHS.
He said that measles can best be treated with vitamin
A and cod liver oil. Which do they sell cod
(15:41):
liver oil still?
Speaker 3 (15:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
And he's emphasizing that getting vaccinated should be just a
personal decision, even during an outbreak, and that kind of
framing can really confuse people.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Can you talk.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
About how these kinds of messages under public health and
what the science actually says.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
You're right, I mean, it's incredibly dangerous. New York Times
reported about all of these overdoses on vitamin A that
kids are showing up at hospitals and because they're liver functions,
they have liver failure now because they just got too
much vitamin A because their poor parents are terrified, and
so you know, I actually I don't necessarily blame parents
(16:26):
for any of this. It's an incredibly confusing landscape. This
is coming from the highest office in government, spouting really conflicting,
confusing messages for people to try to understand.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
You're right.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
One of his messages was that everyone just needs vitamin
A and they will do just fine. And you know,
there is a kernel of truth there. The who does
say we need to treat measles infections with vitamin A,
but in vitamin deficient countries. Only zero point three percent
of Americans are vitamin A deficient, and so vitamin A supplementation,
(17:09):
especially not under physicians supervision, can be incredibly dangerous. And
the reason for that is because vitamin A is a
fat soluble vitamin, which means if you consume too much
like supplements, especially for kids, you can't excrete it out
(17:29):
of your stool or your p so it builds up
to toxic levels and leads to to liver damage and
other serious health issues.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
And so I mean, yeah, I guess I can't.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
I don't know what the words are for how crazy
we are in this moment to be hearing this information
from a Health and Human Service secretary is it's beyond me.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Something you've mentioned is how important it is to talk
to your doctor, you know. But when I listen to reports,
I know this is not the case everywhere. But I
think The Daily just did a story where they were
in West Texas and they were talking about the outbreak
and how it was straining the public health system, particularly
(18:15):
physicians there. We combined that with something we like to
do at Dope Labs is to consider that science and
medicine don't happen in a vacuum, and all the other
inequities of the world show up in these places too,
And so I'm curious about how outbreaks like this strain
our public health systems and impact communities from your perspective,
(18:37):
especially marginalized ones.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Yeah, I mean, first off, it takes an incredible amount
of resources. I mean, we're talking dollar signs right now
right about responding to these outbreaks, and that's because it's
so contagious and right now, a lot of challenge is
around the mistrust of public health, particularly with for example,
these communities like the Mennonite such as don't trust institutions.
(19:04):
They're not coming forward, they're not quarantining, they're not reporting cases,
and so we're seeing this outbreak grow and grow and grow,
which costs resources, that cost time, but also is costing
the health of kids as well. You know, I mentioned
talk to your physician. We often forget that one third
of Americans don't have a primary care physician, right, and
(19:27):
they can't just go talk to a physician. They go
to the emergency department, they look on social media, they
maybe go to their pharmacy, they talk to their pastors.
I mean, there's a lot of different trust and messengers
out there, and so what I've been calling for lately
is that instead of talking from the Ivory Tower and
(19:48):
hoping it trickles down to each household, we really need
to equip trust and messengers. And I'm really happy with
those physicians coming forward and speaking the Mennonite community trust us.
They're faith based leaders a ton. I wish they would
be coming out more. Maybe they are not. During COVID
we saw like barbershop owners taking ownership of COVID vaccines, right,
(20:10):
And so I think this moment isn't necessarily that more
clipboards have to descend and as parachutes. But like, we
need to figure out how to partner and equip trust
in messengers in a timely, understandable, and actionable manner so
we can effectively respond to these outbreaks. And I'm honestly
(20:31):
I'm not sure how much that is happening.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
It's kind of a.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
New way to think about it, but that would help
meet this moment right.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Now, We're just coming out of COVID. Everybody's tired, nobody
wants to wear a mask anymore, like fatigued with the
(20:59):
whole pandemic thing. What can we do to stop the spread?
Is it going to be similar to our action with COVID?
This is way more contagious. Is there extra precautions we
need to be taking. What do we do to not
let this get any worse?
Speaker 4 (21:19):
That's like a billion dollar question right right, But I
think you know the bottom line is if you have
your MMR vaccine, you are very well protected. And this
should not be in your top ten stressors of the day.
There's plenty of other stressors out there. This is not
because you are protected from their vaccine.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I think I.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Worry about parents with those with you know, infants. I
am very worried about them, especially if they're in hot zones,
and my advice to them is to pay attention to
the Public Health Department websites about where these outbreaks are happening,
where exposures are.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Maybe even if you're in.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
West Texas with a five month old, try not to
go to public spaces right now.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I know that.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Sucks, but like these little kids have very little protection
starting out about six months because antibody's wane from the
placenta exposure. Now, as far as the broader, bigger question
around vaccine hesitancy and these bigger questions, I think that one,
it's equipping trust to messengers. Who are those in your
community that need information and people look to for health information?
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Do they have the right sources?
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Two is responding to these events and these moments in
a place of empathy and really trying to understand why
these parents are so scared to get an MMR vaccine,
why it is so much more an appetite to have
a vitamin A supplement versus a vaccine, and really try
to answer their questions and be responsive to their needs
(22:59):
because they are seeing this firestorm. And I also think
like there just needs to be systematic changes as well,
maybe like not how AJHSS.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Secretary warrior is.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
But I mean there's many different levels to this, and
I think we all play a role once we are
in the comfort of knowing we have the immunity to
protect ourselves.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Earlier, you mentioned like this shifting attitude across the nation
and maybe across the globe that is very individual. First,
we're talking about hotspots like West Texas, but even back
in twenty nineteen, we saw outbreaks in California and New
York and Washington, and I'm curious, are you concerned about
outbreaks in those kind of places again? And then I
(23:43):
think the second question is is measles the big bad
wolf or is measles just the prelude as we think
about this individual first approach to public health.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yeah, I mean the.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Challenge with individualism, especially with infectious diseases, is that infectious
disease is violate the assumption of independence, right Like what
TT does at the grocery store directly impacts me. I
think we all got that lesson during COVID and this
is what's gonna happen with measles. It will happen with polio,
(24:16):
whooping cough, we're seeing right now as well. I mean,
it's gonna come back, because the general assumption behind public health,
behind our community is that we care about our neighbors
and our communities and as well as ourselves. And the
ultimate question is what happens when you stop caring about
(24:36):
our communities and our neighbors. Is not a pretty scene
I want to explore. And so right now, in this moment,
it's about educating. I think it's also about reframing how
we talk about it, right, that a measles vaccine does
protect you and your immediate family as well well as
(25:00):
the community, right and really try to measles vaccines. Here's
another one allows you to have more freedom. You can
go not get sick, you don't have to be hospitalized,
you can go to school. Schools won't be shut down
from a measles outbreak. I mean, we can use these frameworks.
We just have to be a whole lot smarter in
(25:20):
the delivery and the framing of it. But I do
think it is needed in this moment more now than ever.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
That was great. That's it for me.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
It was amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Is there anything that we didn't ask that you think
is like, hey, you need to know this.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
One interesting thing that is a lot of nuance. But
it seems like you guys like nuance is every five
years measles flares up.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
That was before the vaccine too, And guess.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
What, it's been about five to six years since our
last big flare up. And so I think that not
only is driven by individualism amnesia, but it's also just
driven by the virus itself. And we'll see if this
isn't just a general increase in measles overall, or it's
(26:12):
just a bad year because measles acts weirdly every five years.
That's gonna take time to know or understand.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Okay, So for me, the key takeaways where the measles
are back, and it's not just a rash. It's one
of the most contagious viruses on earth. It can wipe
out your immune memory. And the vaccine still the best
tool we have in our toolbox. Yes, not only is
the best tool, it actually works. So if you're vaccinated,
(26:46):
you're ninety seven percent protected, and that means you're not
just keeping yourself safe, you're keeping you know, babies that
are under one that can't be vaccinated safe. Older folks
who naturally have Wanning immune systems.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
You're keeping them safe. And people who just can't get
vaccinated for other reasons, you're keeping them safe too.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And if you're not sure about your vaccine status, ask
your doctor. If you were born between nineteen sixty three
and sixty seven, especially, that's a group that might need
a booster. And this is really a moment for us
to just think about public health and not thinking about
it just as like this protective thing, but as this
powerful thing.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Think of it as a power up. It gives you
the freedom to move about the country and outside of
it because measles is global. So if you're vaccinated, don't
have to worry about any of this. If you're on
vacation or I guess working, whatever you're doing, you don't
have to worry about it.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Yeah, And if you found this episode helpful, send it
to your friend or your pilates group. That's right, no shape.
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Podcast tt is on X and Instagram at dr Underscore
t Sho.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
And you can find Takiya at z set So.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate
producer is Isara Savez.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Dope Labs is sound design, edited and mixed by James
farber Lamanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and Production is
Jackie Danziger. Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil.
Marketing lead is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex
sudi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs
is executive produced by us T T Show Dia and
Kia Wattley.
Okay, y'all, we're not trying to scare you. But someone
with the measles was on the DC Metro, the Amtrak
and at the airport planes trains and automobiles, and public
health officials were like, hey, heads up.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I know that kind of alert. Yeah, you don't get it.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
For the flu, you don't get it for COVID anymore.
And yeah, so that made us really pay attention.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yes, and we've talked about measles before, back in our
Protection Neck episode when there was a scare, but it
was mostly out West and now it seems like it's
here again. It's in West Texas, it's in hospitals, and
it's all up in my headlines that I'm reading on
the web. So the main thing I know is that
it's not just a rash. I heard.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
It can be brain swelling and immune amnesia in kids
that are too young to get vaccinated. I didn't even
know that was a possibility before this lab. So if
you're like me, don't worry. We are your good science friends.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I'm TT and I'm Zachiah, and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
Let's jump into the recitation. What do we know?
Speaker 1 (01:22):
We talk a lot about viruses on the show, but
the measles feels like one that people put in the
old news category. But it's very much back, and we've
been seeing it all over the news. I lived just
outside of DC and they were saying somebody was on
the Metro and on the Amtrak and at the airport
and it's really stressing me out. And it's okay to
(01:45):
be stressed out because measles used to be the leading
cause of childhood death.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
But oh how quickly we forget. You remember, like in
old movies they would have these huge families and they
will always be like such a such sibling died as
a baby or a toddler. It probably was the measles.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Cholera was not the only thing killing people in that
Oregon Trail game.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
And in real life. Dude, I know I got my
MMR measles, mumps and rubella years ago. But I know
I got it because it was required for school, Okay, right,
an today that means most other people did too, right.
But here's what we want to know.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
If the vaccines work, why is measles coming back?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Right? How did we get here again? And now that
we're here, how dangerous is it really? Like? How do
we cut through the noise and you know, people saying
this is what you should take, you should worry about
this or don't worry about it. How do we figure
out what we need to know to protect ourselves and
folks in our communities? Right?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So, to help us break it all down, we're talking
to doctor Caitlyn Jeddalina. All right, let's jump into the dissection.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
My name is Caitlyn Jeddelina.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I'm an epidemiologist and founder and author of a public
health newsletter called Your Our Local Epidemiologist.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Thank you for joining us. We are so excited to
hear from you.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Let's start with the basics. What exactly is the measles
and how does it spread? And can we compare it
to other contagious diseases so that people can get like
an understanding of how contagious it is.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Yeah, So, measles is a virus and it has been
around forever and it used to cause about five hundred
to one thousand deaths per year before a vaccine, many
many many infections, I mean some years we're up to
six hundred thousand infections. And then with the introduction of
(03:41):
sanitation as well as a medicine as well as an
MMR vaccine, we really saw almost the disappearance of measles
within the United States. In two thousand, it was eliminated.
We got an elimination status, meaning it wasn't spreading.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Everywhere like fluid does or covid does.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
Now. In fact, we would just get sporadic cases. And
you're right, I mean this year it is coming in hot.
Backing up on the measles. You know, measles is spread
through the air. It is the most contagious virus there
is on earth. So for one infected person, they can
(04:22):
infect about eighteen other unvaccinated people. It can live in
the air for hours, and so that's why people at
the Metro or Amtrak were worried. Rightfully so, because measles
can stay up in the air for about two to
three hours after the person has left, and so really
(04:44):
a virus we don't want to play around, I will say,
you know, the vast majority of people do just okay.
It is just quote unquote a rash to them. The
problem is it's like playing Russian roulette or if you're not vaccinated,
because it's also it can be a nasty virus. We're
talking about brain swelling, we're talking about hearing loss. There's
(05:08):
this thing called immune amnesia with measles, which means that
even if you survive a measles infection, it wipes your
immune memory from other viruses. So what we see is
that after a measles infection, you can die five ten
years later from flu because it wiped your memory of
flu out.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
And then of course there's death.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
And we've already seen two dusts this year in the
United States. So yeah, not something I want to mess
around with.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Oh my gosh, you said that most people fear.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Okay, when you say people, are you talking kids included?
We're seeing outbreaks with children, particularly in West Texas and
places where we see people are not vaccinated. When you
say people, do you mean everybody?
Speaker 4 (05:52):
So like we learned during COVID, and I love this
question because it makes my public health heart happy, is
that risk is not uniform. So the people that are
hit the hardest by measles if they have no protection,
are the youngest. So right now, in this massive measles
outbreak in West Texas. The vast majority of cases are
school age children. Their little immune systems just can't handle
(06:16):
this nasty virus replicating within their system very well, as
well as older people are compromised, so kind of both
of the spectrums of the age.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And so that's what we've seen.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
We've seen one death and a six year old, and
one death and an older unvaccinated adult, and so that's
not too surprising, Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Zakia's background is in genetics and genomics, so she knows
a lot about this stuff. My background is an engineering.
I don't know anything about this. And so when I
hear you say it was eliminated in a two thousand,
I'm like, right, twenty five years ago.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Why is it back?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Anything that has been eliminated for me is no longer returning.
Lots of ex boyfriends and things like that. What is
happening with measles? Why is it beck like the bad
ex that just keeps texting you.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
There's a multitude of reasons, but I think the biggest
one is that vaccines are a victim of their success.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
We just have general amnesia right now. A lot of
us have never seen measles. Physicians have never treated measles before, right,
and so a lot of parents don't know why this
virus is bad. May think it's just like a rash,
like maybe chicken pox or something, and it's really something
a whole lot more dangerous, and so there's that amnesia.
(07:36):
There's this rise of individualism, particularly we're seeing the decline
in vaccine exemptions and a lot of states because of
this individual choice freedom for sort of movement. There's this
new information ecosystem which is called social media, and it
(07:56):
is chaos there. There's so many hot takes and bad
takes as well as just lots of trust and institutions
right now as well, and so as creating this perfect storm.
The reason we're seeing it with measles instead of like
polio coming back or you know, others, is because it's
so contagious, like it's usually the first building block we lose.
(08:21):
Because of its contagiousness, we need a really high heard
immunity level, which is about ninety five percent to stop it,
and right now we're about ninety two percent on a
national level, and that's why we're seeing it now.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
That's a really good point, caitln You're saying, we go
from ninety five percent to ninety two percent, And I
know to most people listening, they're like, that's still an.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
A It is.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
But I think in the same way that you said,
risk is not the same across categories for people, vaccination
uptake is not the same. It's not evinly distributed across
the country. And so I'd love for you to tell
us a little bit more about how that unequal distribution
puts herd immunity at risk for people.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Oh my god, I love your guys as questions. You're right,
that is absolutely right. So ninety two percent seems very high.
It is very high, right, it's a great number, But
there's vast variability at a hyper local level, which means
that there are just really there's pockets in counties and
(09:26):
states across the United States that have really low vaccination rates.
So the average is ninety two percent, but there's a
lot far under. The least vaccinated state is Idaho seventy
nine percent MMR vaccination rate. And even if we keep
going hyper local into some counties like Gaines County where
(09:47):
this outbreak happened, like in certain counties in New York,
I mean certain counties in California where I am I
mean vaccination rates get down to like fourteen twenty percent,
and remember we need a ninety five percent level. And
so these pockets measles just runs like wildfire when they
find it. And that's what we're seeing in East Texas
(10:07):
right now. It's what we saw in New York in
twenty nineteen, and it's what we saw at Disneyland in
twenty sixteen, and so.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
It's just that's what's happening.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
The other thing that's happening right now is not just
measles finding those unvaccinated pockets, but a lot of sparks
going off across the United States, and these are called
sporadic cases from international travel. And the problem with a
lot more sparks is that the more probability of them
finding an unvaccinated pocket. And so we kind of see
the two happening at the same time.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
So the MMR vaccine measles, mumps and rubella vaccine has
been around for a long time since like the sixties,
and what I felt like was that it offers lifelong protection.
But there's also a lot of confusion about like boosters.
If you're over sixty something, then maybe you'll need to
(11:14):
get another one. How strong is the defense when you
have the vaccine. And two, what should people be considering
now that measles is starting to reseurge and their vaccine status.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Yeah, so the MMR vaccine is incredibly durable, and you're right,
we kind of make the assumption that it is lifetime protection.
This is very different than like flu right where we
need a vaccine every year or covid or a vaccine
every year. And the reason for that is this is
just a very different virus. It hasn't really changed since
the nineteen sixties, and so we can just use the
(11:50):
two dose there is and so people are very well
protected if you're up to date on vaccines ninety seven
percent effectiveness. There's a group before nineteen fifty seven that
didn't get measles vaccines because measles was widespread then, and
so it's assumed that everyone born before nineteen fifty seven
were naturally exposed and have immunity, and I think that's
(12:14):
a good assumption. There's one exception of a group that
needs a booster right now, and those are born between
nineteen sixty three and nineteen sixty seven, And the reason
for that is during those short three years, Uh, most
people received a dead virus vaccine, let's just say, and
(12:37):
it's not as effective as what we have today, and
so they may need a booster.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I was just talking as a key about this because
I go to pilates and I go early in the morning.
So it's a lot of older women there. Shout out
to them though, and one woman said, if you're between
ages of sixty three and sixty eight, you have to
go get a booster. But that's not what it is.
If you were born between nineteen sixty three and nineteen
(13:05):
sixty seven, then you really need to be thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
That's wow. You see how this misinformation travels.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Ugh confusing too, and then you're like why those years,
Like why what happens if I don't have a record
of measles or vaccination? And that's why it's really just
best for people to talk to their physician, because even
if they don't have a record of it, there's very
little harm in getting these vaccines.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
It may just make sense to get a booster. Nonetheless,
if you don't.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Know, I looked at the vaccine schedule, and I know
the first dose is at one year or a year
and a half, and the second dose is when you're
between four and six. What about the kids that are
in between that. So, let's say you have a child
that's three years old and they've only received one dose.
Should parents be concerned or is the one dose good enough?
Speaker 3 (13:57):
Good question?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
So, and I want to out highly what you're saying too,
is that you're right. Kids can only get their first
dose at twelve months old. That's the purpose of herd immunity, right,
is we protect people that can't get protected, and that
includes infants under twelve months, it includes immune compromise, et cetera.
But you're right, they get their first dose at twelve
months and then that just that first dose is ninety
(14:21):
three percent effective, So like you're pretty darn well effective.
The second dose is really for those entering kindergarten, for example,
where measle spreads easily. It's not technically a booster, but
it does help cover the seven percent of people that
didn't respond to that first dose. And so without that
(14:42):
second dose there's gaps and immunity that can feel outbreaks. Now,
I will say, if you have a three year old
and you're in West Texas in the middle of this
hot zone, they can get the second MMR vaccine. Actually
you only need twenty eight days between both do and
this flexibility is actually very useful in outbreak areas where
(15:05):
kids could get a second dose. I will say, though,
the longer the interval generally strengthens the immunity, and so
that's why we wait a couple more years. But really
it's not a detrimental thing to get it earlier.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
There's a lot of misinformation, not just on social media,
but even from government officials like RFK Junior, who is
now the new head of Health and Human Services or AHHS.
He said that measles can best be treated with vitamin
A and cod liver oil. Which do they sell cod
(15:41):
liver oil still?
Speaker 3 (15:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
And he's emphasizing that getting vaccinated should be just a
personal decision, even during an outbreak, and that kind of
framing can really confuse people.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Can you talk.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
About how these kinds of messages under public health and
what the science actually says.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
You're right, I mean, it's incredibly dangerous. New York Times
reported about all of these overdoses on vitamin A that
kids are showing up at hospitals and because they're liver functions,
they have liver failure now because they just got too
much vitamin A because their poor parents are terrified, and
so you know, I actually I don't necessarily blame parents
(16:26):
for any of this. It's an incredibly confusing landscape. This
is coming from the highest office in government, spouting really conflicting,
confusing messages for people to try to understand.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
You're right.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
One of his messages was that everyone just needs vitamin
A and they will do just fine. And you know,
there is a kernel of truth there. The who does
say we need to treat measles infections with vitamin A,
but in vitamin deficient countries. Only zero point three percent
of Americans are vitamin A deficient, and so vitamin A supplementation,
(17:09):
especially not under physicians supervision, can be incredibly dangerous. And
the reason for that is because vitamin A is a
fat soluble vitamin, which means if you consume too much
like supplements, especially for kids, you can't excrete it out
(17:29):
of your stool or your p so it builds up
to toxic levels and leads to to liver damage and
other serious health issues.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
And so I mean, yeah, I guess I can't.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
I don't know what the words are for how crazy
we are in this moment to be hearing this information
from a Health and Human Service secretary is it's beyond me.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Something you've mentioned is how important it is to talk
to your doctor, you know. But when I listen to reports,
I know this is not the case everywhere. But I
think The Daily just did a story where they were
in West Texas and they were talking about the outbreak
and how it was straining the public health system, particularly
(18:15):
physicians there. We combined that with something we like to
do at Dope Labs is to consider that science and
medicine don't happen in a vacuum, and all the other
inequities of the world show up in these places too,
And so I'm curious about how outbreaks like this strain
our public health systems and impact communities from your perspective,
(18:37):
especially marginalized ones.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Yeah, I mean, first off, it takes an incredible amount
of resources. I mean, we're talking dollar signs right now
right about responding to these outbreaks, and that's because it's
so contagious and right now, a lot of challenge is
around the mistrust of public health, particularly with for example,
these communities like the Mennonite such as don't trust institutions.
(19:04):
They're not coming forward, they're not quarantining, they're not reporting cases,
and so we're seeing this outbreak grow and grow and grow,
which costs resources, that cost time, but also is costing
the health of kids as well. You know, I mentioned
talk to your physician. We often forget that one third
of Americans don't have a primary care physician, right, and
(19:27):
they can't just go talk to a physician. They go
to the emergency department, they look on social media, they
maybe go to their pharmacy, they talk to their pastors.
I mean, there's a lot of different trust and messengers
out there, and so what I've been calling for lately
is that instead of talking from the Ivory Tower and
(19:48):
hoping it trickles down to each household, we really need
to equip trust and messengers. And I'm really happy with
those physicians coming forward and speaking the Mennonite community trust us.
They're faith based leaders a ton. I wish they would
be coming out more. Maybe they are not. During COVID
we saw like barbershop owners taking ownership of COVID vaccines, right,
(20:10):
And so I think this moment isn't necessarily that more
clipboards have to descend and as parachutes. But like, we
need to figure out how to partner and equip trust
in messengers in a timely, understandable, and actionable manner so
we can effectively respond to these outbreaks. And I'm honestly
(20:31):
I'm not sure how much that is happening.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
It's kind of a.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
New way to think about it, but that would help
meet this moment right.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Now, We're just coming out of COVID. Everybody's tired, nobody
wants to wear a mask anymore, like fatigued with the
(20:59):
whole pandemic thing. What can we do to stop the spread?
Is it going to be similar to our action with COVID?
This is way more contagious. Is there extra precautions we
need to be taking. What do we do to not
let this get any worse?
Speaker 4 (21:19):
That's like a billion dollar question right right, But I
think you know the bottom line is if you have
your MMR vaccine, you are very well protected. And this
should not be in your top ten stressors of the day.
There's plenty of other stressors out there. This is not
because you are protected from their vaccine.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I think I.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Worry about parents with those with you know, infants. I
am very worried about them, especially if they're in hot zones,
and my advice to them is to pay attention to
the Public Health Department websites about where these outbreaks are happening,
where exposures are.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Maybe even if you're in.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
West Texas with a five month old, try not to
go to public spaces right now.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I know that.
Speaker 4 (22:07):
Sucks, but like these little kids have very little protection
starting out about six months because antibody's wane from the
placenta exposure. Now, as far as the broader, bigger question
around vaccine hesitancy and these bigger questions, I think that one,
it's equipping trust to messengers. Who are those in your
community that need information and people look to for health information?
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Do they have the right sources?
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Two is responding to these events and these moments in
a place of empathy and really trying to understand why
these parents are so scared to get an MMR vaccine,
why it is so much more an appetite to have
a vitamin A supplement versus a vaccine, and really try
to answer their questions and be responsive to their needs
(22:59):
because they are seeing this firestorm. And I also think
like there just needs to be systematic changes as well,
maybe like not how AJHSS.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Secretary warrior is.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
But I mean there's many different levels to this, and
I think we all play a role once we are
in the comfort of knowing we have the immunity to
protect ourselves.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Earlier, you mentioned like this shifting attitude across the nation
and maybe across the globe that is very individual. First,
we're talking about hotspots like West Texas, but even back
in twenty nineteen, we saw outbreaks in California and New
York and Washington, and I'm curious, are you concerned about
outbreaks in those kind of places again? And then I
(23:43):
think the second question is is measles the big bad
wolf or is measles just the prelude as we think
about this individual first approach to public health.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yeah, I mean the.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
Challenge with individualism, especially with infectious diseases, is that infectious
disease is violate the assumption of independence, right Like what
TT does at the grocery store directly impacts me. I
think we all got that lesson during COVID and this
is what's gonna happen with measles. It will happen with polio,
(24:16):
whooping cough, we're seeing right now as well. I mean,
it's gonna come back, because the general assumption behind public health,
behind our community is that we care about our neighbors
and our communities and as well as ourselves. And the
ultimate question is what happens when you stop caring about
(24:36):
our communities and our neighbors. Is not a pretty scene
I want to explore. And so right now, in this moment,
it's about educating. I think it's also about reframing how
we talk about it, right, that a measles vaccine does
protect you and your immediate family as well well as
(25:00):
the community, right and really try to measles vaccines. Here's
another one allows you to have more freedom. You can
go not get sick, you don't have to be hospitalized,
you can go to school. Schools won't be shut down
from a measles outbreak. I mean, we can use these frameworks.
We just have to be a whole lot smarter in
(25:20):
the delivery and the framing of it. But I do
think it is needed in this moment more now than ever.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
That was great. That's it for me.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
It was amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Is there anything that we didn't ask that you think
is like, hey, you need to know this.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
One interesting thing that is a lot of nuance. But
it seems like you guys like nuance is every five
years measles flares up.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
That was before the vaccine too, And guess.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
What, it's been about five to six years since our
last big flare up. And so I think that not
only is driven by individualism amnesia, but it's also just
driven by the virus itself. And we'll see if this
isn't just a general increase in measles overall, or it's
(26:12):
just a bad year because measles acts weirdly every five years.
That's gonna take time to know or understand.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Okay, So for me, the key takeaways where the measles
are back, and it's not just a rash. It's one
of the most contagious viruses on earth. It can wipe
out your immune memory. And the vaccine still the best
tool we have in our toolbox. Yes, not only is
the best tool, it actually works. So if you're vaccinated,
(26:46):
you're ninety seven percent protected, and that means you're not
just keeping yourself safe, you're keeping you know, babies that
are under one that can't be vaccinated safe. Older folks
who naturally have Wanning immune systems.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
You're keeping them safe. And people who just can't get
vaccinated for other reasons, you're keeping them safe too.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
And if you're not sure about your vaccine status, ask
your doctor. If you were born between nineteen sixty three
and sixty seven, especially, that's a group that might need
a booster. And this is really a moment for us
to just think about public health and not thinking about
it just as like this protective thing, but as this
powerful thing.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Think of it as a power up. It gives you
the freedom to move about the country and outside of
it because measles is global. So if you're vaccinated, don't
have to worry about any of this. If you're on
vacation or I guess working, whatever you're doing, you don't
have to worry about it.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Yeah, And if you found this episode helpful, send it
to your friend or your pilates group. That's right, no shape.
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Podcast tt is on X and Instagram at dr Underscore
t Sho.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
And you can find Takiya at z set So.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour and our associate
producer is Isara Savez.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Dope Labs is sound design, edited and mixed by James
farber Lamanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and Production is
Jackie Danziger. Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil.
Marketing lead is Alison Kanter.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex
sudi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs
is executive produced by us T T Show Dia and
Kia Wattley.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.