May 25, 2025 • 50 mins
Is TSA keeping us safe or just stressed? Titi and Zakiya dig into the tech (and drama) behind airport security: from Real ID confusion to body scanning to biometrics for PreCheck and CLEAR. With help from No Such Thing podcast hosts Manny, Noah, and Devan, who recently did an amazing episode on TSA, they unpack the truth behind surveillance, bias, and why travel still feels like controlled chaos.
Stay up to date with Dope Labs, Titi, and Zakiya on Instagram.
Check out Devan, Manny, and Noah on their show - No Such Thing
Read The Humiliating History of TSA written by Darryl Campbell
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm t T and I'm Zakiyah and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
I don't think I've ever asked you this, zee. Do
(00:25):
you like traveling? I mean, I travel a lot, and
I think usually I do. But it's just the little
in between time before I get to my gate and
board the plane, Like everything leading up to that, like
from when I wake up that morning to that point,
is stressful. It really gets on my nerves. And I
(00:46):
you know, I always pack at the last minute. Yeah,
of course, of course. And then I have to figure out,
am I taking an uber which is gonna be a
trillion dollars to the airport? Am I driving myself to
the airport? Which I used to like doing? But then
I get there, none of the information is corrected. The
Atlanta Airport sometimes they're like, oh, this parking lot is full.
It's like I just passed a digital sign that you
could easily update remotely that says this airport lot is available.
(01:10):
I wouldn't even come this way. And then I think
the gotcha, gotcha, guess who's coming to dinner. Part is
what your experience at TSA is gonna be, Like, it's
gonna be seven minutes or seventy you know, Oh my gosh, TSA.
It feels like everyone has an attitude. Folks are yelling,
people have their shoes off, people are struggling with the bens.
(01:33):
It is a nightmare. Yes, and so by the time
you get through there, it's like, I don't even want
to go. Actually, I'm going home. My shoes, I'm going home.
This sounds like a great topic to dive into today
because summer is near, and that means we are hitting
the friendli skuys. People are going on vacations, they flying out,
they flying folks out. I don't know what your business is.
(01:56):
I think you're right. So let's jump into the recitation
to figure out what we know and what we want
to know about TSA. Well, we know that the TSA
is meant to keep us safe and that there is
an attitude needed to serve in that role, a very
particular attitude. Yes, okay. So we know that the TSA
stands for the Transportation Security Administration and it's a part
(02:19):
of the Department of Homeland Security, and it's in charge
of keeping the nation's transportation systems safe. So that's airports, rails, highways, pipelines,
you name it. I have never seen the TSA at
a train station now, but I'm not going not too
much on it, but I just want to say that.
And we know that the rules for travel are constantly changing,
(02:42):
sometimes from my being to the next person's being, and
from one airport to another. Sometimes you got to throw
out your heat protected or your expensive perfume. So we
know that. So what do we want to know personally?
I want to know more about the tech. It's a
different scanner at every airport. Whether it's gonna pick up
my ank lit or not, I don't know how is
(03:03):
that working. And speaking of tech, I want to know
about the tech associated with you know, the real idea
that they're saying that we have to have you have yours. Yes,
they've been telling us this for six years. Oh, I
know some folks still don't got it. I know they don't.
They're going to be at home. That's wild to me.
(03:23):
But I also want to know if TSA is actually
protecting us or is it just the illusion of protection,
Because I feel like I'm constantly seeing like women lived
in airport for two weeks or snuck onto plane. I'm like,
I can't sneak a lotion into my carry on, so
how did that happen? I think this is a great
(03:45):
place to start, so let's jump into the dissection for
today's lab our. Guests are the hosts of No Such
Thing podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
My name is Manny. I'm a co hosts for No
Such Thing. I'm Noah.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I'm also a cost of No Such Thing.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
And I'm Devin also I'm co host. I'm No such Thing.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
But before we get into the nitty gritty, let's get
some background on TSA. So the TSA became a thing
in November nineteenth of two thousand and one, so that
was barely two months after nine to eleven, and it
was out of the Aviation and Transportation Security Act and
so on the heels of nine to eleven and all
of the reaction, TSA was able to federalize sixty thousand screeners,
(04:32):
so those are people to screen you coming through. In
under a year. They had a budget that ballooned from
one billion dollars in two thousand and two to fast
forward to today a budget of over ten billion dollars.
So it's about to be summer. Last summer, TSA screened
over three million people in one day. People. That's a
ton of people. We're heading into another record season and
(04:53):
they're expected to surpass about eight hundred million screenings this year,
and I'm just like, what's going on with tsall?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Right?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Is this system keeping up? Are we just squeezing more
people through the same old bottom nicks? Yeah, Okay, y'all
did a great episode about TSA on your podcast, so
I want to know y'all's take on the TSA.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
I was actually in your neck of the woods in
Atlanta in January and I got stuck at in the
TSA lines, and I think it was one of the
inspirations to do this episode, which was like, I'm getting
yelled at by this guy who's telling me not to
take my laptop out, even though the sign behind him
is saying that I have to take my laptop out.
(05:31):
And I think, just like, these frustrations are so common.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
This is my wheelhouse because I've worked with a lot
of scanning devices in my day. Go off, let me
come the reason why we have to take the laptops out,
so the old school X rays they can't really see
through dense batteries, So you have to take your laptop
out of your bag so that I can really get,
(05:56):
you know, a good picture. It's not about the laptop,
about the items in the bag. Yeah, that's not clear
to other items. Yeah, because it's a two D X ray.
So they fire a fan shaped X ray beams straight
through your bag and it produces this flat picture on
the monitor, and they calculate density by how much of
(06:19):
that beam is absorbed. The more dense an object is,
the brighter that blob is on the screen. So lithium
ion laptop batteries pack layers of metal foil, so aluminum,
copper and some other metals, and plus this steel shell
that's around the battery, and those have high atopic numbers,
(06:39):
and so those are gonna light up like a Christmas
tree when you send it through that X ray scanner.
And so then they can't see my you know, over
three point four ounce perfume that's in my bag if
the laptop is blocking it exactly, exactly, somebody should have
said that I thought they were looking for things in
my laptop and that's why it needed to be out
the bag. Yes, I mean it. If they explain that
(07:00):
I feel like a lot of folks would be less upset.
It's like, hey, this big old laptop battery is just
blocking everything else. I don't know if you got, you know,
a hammer in there, or if you in Atlanta a
hammer in there. Hammer. Yeah. So with the new types
of scanners, they're called computed tomography scanners, they fire hundreds
(07:24):
of X rays slices, producing a three D model of
what's inside of your bag. So the software is able
to see your laptop and rotate it around and see
what's all around it. So it could basically pick up
your bag rotated on the screen, it could see every
item that's in there. So there's no need to take
your laptop out because they can see everything. So laptop
(07:45):
in the bag when you have these new scanners. Ah,
So it's just do you have the old tech or
the new tech exactly. And TSA has been rolling out
CT units since twenty twenty four and it's been installed
at more than two hundred and fifty lanes nationwide and
they have one point three billion dollars with a B
to finish the job over the next few years, so
(08:07):
they're going to be rolling out more and more. So
I think people can be excited about being able to
leave their laptops in their bag. Eventually, well it doesn't
stop there.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
We've got a new layer coming into this whole tsa
thing because the real ID.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yes. So the nine to eleven Commission set up the
real ID Act of two thousand and five and signed
it in two thousand and five. So we've had some time.
They were flagging sloppy state by state license rules and
they were saying, hey, this is a security gap. So
it ordered the Department of Homeland Security to set a
minimum issuance and car security standard before any ID could
(08:45):
be used to board a plane or intra federal site.
Now what this means is that you have a superdense
card that can hold a lot of information compared to
a non real ID card, and all fifty six jurisdictions
in the United States must encode the same data fields,
so every scanner can speak the same language, just like, hey, everybody,
(09:06):
let's get on the same page, get the choreography right,
and we can say who's passing with real ID or
who's failing get information? And so there are some anti
counterfeit elements that are incorporated into the real ID, so
they have UV ghost images, microprinting, laser perforations, color shift, inc.
(09:26):
And that telltale star that is on the front of
your ID. That's the only thing I've noticed is the star. Okay,
if you have a real ID, take it out, look
at it. You'll see all of these little characteristics that
all make it so that it's harder to counterfeit or
almost impossible to counterfeit the ID.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
Even getting a real ID is kind of paining the
ass because I tried to get one a couple of
years ago, Like, went to the DMV with this mission
in mind, and I guess I brought like only three
out of the four documents I and I just ended
up waiting in line for three hours and getting a
regular ass ID. And so now I've just taken my
(10:07):
passport everywhere with me.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
So just steal no star. Steal no star on your idea.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Yeah, you don't get the star on a corner.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Sticker on the It's terrible stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So the way that real ID works when you get
to the TSA podium is that their tablet checks it
in about a second and at the checkpoint, a credential
authentication technology or CAT unit grabs the barcode decodes your name,
your data, birth, your license number and issuing state, and
then the embedded security signatures they confirm that the card
(10:37):
hasn't been tampered with, and then using a secure look
up via the American Association of Motor Vehicles Administrations in
their network, they make sure that you don't hold two
licenses in different states. Yeah, out they're catfish and they're
gonna find you and then be with the credential authentication
(10:57):
technology so cat as we were calling, it is also
wired to the TSA Secure flight database, so they're able
to instantly match your ID with your flight reservation. So
the end result is something very close to a two
factor authentication for your face and your ticket without even
having a hand over your boarding pass.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Well, I saw today the reporter was saying that lax,
because of course nobody knows this is happening, and nobody
has their real IDs, and they're saying if you don't
have real i D, they just give you a piece
of paper that says you should get a real i
D and they still let you go through. Okay, well
next time, next time, this lax.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Don't you know.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I can't speak for a friendly.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
The big deadline is just a friendly reminder.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Yeah, they kept pushing it back for five years to
remind you.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
They're like, oh, that's today.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You talked about being yelled at by TSA, and I
think everyone has stories about being yelled at by TSA.
It feels like that's what you have to be able
to do to have the job, is yell at strangers
who are dragging a bag and a baby and all
these things behind them. Why is this the case? I mean,
(12:23):
it feels like, specifically TSA screening, it still feels so
fraud even though we're twenty plus years after nine eleven,
which is when you know TSA really really really became
a thing.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Yeah, I guess, yeah, that was my big thing, right,
It's like, what, Okay, it's hard enough to follow the rules,
Why are y'all coming with this energy like chill?
Speaker 1 (12:46):
You know.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
It's like, if you're gonna make it confusing, I'm gonna
be confused. That's like the way it's gonna work. But
when we talked to Darryl, like, it did make me
feel a little bit more sympathetic because they're one of
the lowest paid government workers, you know, they they start
out making I think he said like thirty five K,
and then they work their way up to forty two,
(13:07):
which is nothing, especially nowadays, and then for a long
period of time they're on probation. So it's like they're
yelling at you because they're trying not to get in
trouble from their supervisors because if they do anything within
I think he said those first two years that is deemed,
you know, a violation about their supervisor. The's not like
(13:27):
trial or anything, you could just get fired. So I
think they're anxious because they're not being paid a lot,
and their supervisors are you know, have for any reasons
to fire them. So then they put that anxiety onto us,
the passengers who are just you know, trying to understand
the very confusing rules, and I think creates a cycle
(13:49):
because then we give them that energy back.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Mentioned Darryl and I have to shout him out. Dryl
Campbell is the author of this article, The Humiliating History
of TSA, and you all had him on your podcast
as well. Everybody should read that article because it led
to me looking up stats and it was saying that
like ts agents are in basically hostile work environments and
that could be what affects our customer service. It is
(14:11):
a lot to unpack, but I also am curious, like
TSA feels like such a huge production. Just recently, just
this past weekend, my bag got stuck and I was like,
what's happening? The guys like pause, I'm like, what the
machine is on pause? I'm on pause? Can I move
to the other line?
Speaker 5 (14:30):
Like?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Is anybody can get my stuff out of there? It
just always feels so confusing, and I'm like, oh, well,
they really are working hard, They're really protecting us. But
I saw where they said ninety five percent of the
time they were failing to like when they do these tests,
they're failing to detect mock weapons. And I'm like, in Atlanta,
I mean that's an all TSA. But baby, right, it
(14:56):
just feels like I'm concerned about that. You know where
we are. I'm throwing away full cans of he protected
for my hair and it's goods moving through you not
just feel like my motion back yes, And I just
feel like, is this something that's about compliance or is
this about actual threat detection? And where do we land
(15:19):
on that it is TSA deterring threats?
Speaker 4 (15:23):
I think the long and short of it is no
like they're pretty bad at stopping. Like you said, the
I think a ninety number. They they said, hey, we
got better. A couple of years later after that, I
think it was like twenty seventeen. Seventy percent of the
weapons got through.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
That's a that's not good. That's still still thirty out
of one hundred.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
You're letting a lot of weapons. Should be zero. But yeah,
there's been lots of studies on this.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
They do this like cost per late life saved metric.
If we want to say, like TSA, you're stopping every
single terrorist attack. Is the only organization that's going to
stop it. There's no police that, there's no FBI, we
have no intelligence, it's all TSA. If we say that,
if we give them that benefit of the doubt, it's
fifteen million dollars per life save, which is well above
(16:13):
what you know the government wants to spend. If you
start to take into account, well, you know, you got
the FBI, you got other agencies involved. Most people who
are planning this type of thing don't even make it
onto the plane. Then it goes up to something like
I think he said, like one hundred million, five hundred million.
Like the numbers get crazy high. But it's the sort
(16:35):
of thing where it's this is just the way that
it's been.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
We haven't had another nine eleven since nine to eleven,
So nobody wants to put their neck out and be like, oh,
maybe we should stop doing this thing, because what if
a year from now there is another terrorist attack. Even
if TSA wouldn't have stopped it, there's always going to
be that thing in the back of people's minds of like, oh,
we should have just kept doing that annoying thing.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Right. There was a time where me and Takia we
uh we travel with the well to the same place
a few times in the last year, and we were
leaving Boston and I had a newborn baby and so
I was like I was pumping and things like that,
and I had this big ass container of breast milk
(17:18):
and so they were like, okay, we have to swap it.
I said, that's fine. They came back and said it
tested positive for explosives.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Any explanation, Yeah, was this true? Yeah? Did they stop you?
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Yeah, we gotta take we gotta take you to a lab.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I was like, excuse me, and he was like, yeah,
so we have to do more testing. So they called
this man out, that's like the head of bomb squad
or something. He comes out with this whole kit. He's
taking droppers of my breast milk and cringing it into
all these things. And he's like, I can confirm that
is a liquid, and I can confirm that it is
(18:03):
not alcohol. Yeah, me too.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
The baby can confirm that.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
No, that man drunk all the time. And he said,
I can say that it is not explosive, but I
cannot say that it is milk.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
I imagine the TSA machines aren't necessarily built to confirm
whether something is milk or not.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Right, So what those initial swaps are looking for is
trace nitro benzene residue. So that's a cousin to TNT
or dynamite. And the problem with that is that gliscerin
and lotions hand sanitizer and even some breast milk bags
can mimic the chemical signature of nitro benzene, and so
that might explain the flag on my breast milk or
(18:53):
or you know, yes, I am Alex Mack. Are y'all
too young for Alex Mack? I am it? Look it up.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
I ran into a similar thing in Atlanta once again,
where I go through the machine and it's beeping, and
I go back and I take off my belt and
I go through and it beeps again. And you know,
we went through that over and over in tim like
almost naked at this point, and it's still beeping. And
so finally they're like, okay, we have to pat you down,
and they, to their credit, gave me a little warning
(19:23):
that the pat down was like pretty invasive, and I
was like, whatever, I need to get back to New York.
But at the end I asked him, I was like, so,
why does the machine beep if there's no metal on me?
And he just said he just shrugged his shoulders. He
said he doesn't and didn't know. And then I was like,
all right bye, Like that just wasted twenty minutes of
my life, and it feels like these machines should be
(19:44):
better equipped to handle that.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
We talked about scanning bodies earlier, but scanning people is
where I also lose my cool for TSA, because metal
detectors feels like such old technology. It is the first
airport deployment of metal detectors came in nineteen seventy three,
after a whole bunch of hijacking platforms. People were wearing
platforms and build bottomies going through metal detectors. Yes, with
(20:07):
the big collars on your shirt. Then by the early eighties,
the magnetometer arc was really common in all airports, and
today TSA still fields thousands of units nationwide, especially in
the pre check lanes, because they're cheap, fast and require
no radiation waivers. So the amount of radiation that comes
(20:30):
out of those arcs is below the limit that will
require you to sign a waiver to go. Wait, but
what if you're going through a lot. I don't know.
You got to tell me how this works. Because I'm
going through a lot. You need a docimiter. Yes, I
do tell me that the little quick click clicklicklick tell
me the dose. Now do remember that from experiments lab Absolutely.
(20:50):
And the way that these metal detectors work is that
there is a coil in the side panels that fire
one hundred to one thousand micropulses of current per second,
and each current generates a magnetic field very quickly, and
when the pulse stops, the field snaps back and induces
a tiny echo current in the coil. And if a
(21:12):
metal object is in that field, the electrons on that
metal object will wiggle some, stretching the echo for a
few extra microseconds, and the machine measures that stretch, so
then it's able to create a sound. So it bounces
back and it creates this be beep to let you
(21:32):
know metal has been detected. Huh. And so I don't
think I realized that. But also I don't have to
carry a docimitar because I am able to walk by
those machines. And I want to talk about being able
to bypass those machines because it feels like for ninety dollars,
I can avoid all of that. And now I can
keep my shoes on and my laptop can stay in
(21:53):
my bag and my camera whatever, everything full size, everything
be going through there, okay, big mom, Big mom. And
I'm like, what is it that these things like clear
and pre check. Is it that heaven ninety dollars makes
me less of a threat, Like.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
If you got at, you ain't going too much?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
You got too much slip for here?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
He nah, you're a terrorist. And what kind of surveillance
are we opting into? Because I know if the line
where they scan me is shorter, I'm going there and
I know better. But I'm going there.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah. Pre check is a background check with fingerprints that
shows that you're low risk, and TSA still screens your
back clear. Do you give private biometrics so your iris,
your eyeball, or your face verifies you and then hands
you to TSA. It's in ID fast passed and it's
not a security pass. One of the things I have
(22:56):
been so shocked to find out is that only fifteen
percent of travelers have pre check. Less than two percent
used Clear. Let me tell you, the last time I
was at the airport, it did not feel. It doesn't
feel my line was wrapped around the corner. I said,
imight as well go through regular security and take off
from my shoes. I would have been done faster. One
percent is in Atlanta because it feels like everybody has
pre check and Clear. And so I just don't understand
(23:19):
because in my world, money does not equal innocence. Okay,
So I don't know. You can have a lot of
money and some ill intent, you know, yeah, most of
the people I know what a lot of money got
ill intent. I'm talking about Zakiah.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
What I just actually just got pre checked, and I
was kind of shocked by how quickly it happened. Well,
they fingerprint you, which is the big thing, and then
like I needed to provide you give them a lot
of information. The thing is like, I have no idea
what they're doing with that information, right, So they they
ran some sort of background check on me to make
(23:54):
sure I guess I'm not a terrorist because I got
caught in the line where it took me like two
hours through security and I was like, I can't let
that happen again. I guess I gotta spend the ninety
dollars And I'm like, yeah, what is that? What is
having my fingerprints? Like why is that the difference?
Speaker 5 (24:11):
Yeah, God forbid someone wants to do something that's you know,
similar to like a suicide mission, they're not gonna They're like, fine,
take my fingerprints.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Who care?
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Like that's not really a deterrent, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
And I also don't think terror is on a background
report like r I just had two years in terrorist school.
I just don't think. I just don't know what we're
gonna get there.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
It's something that came up when we talked to Darryl,
This this concept of security theater. Right, So it's like
doing a bunch of stuff that makes it look like
we're a lot safer than we are, and that's kind
of all that needs to happen.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
He talked about how he interviewed some people who were
being stopped, like once you get past TSA at the
actual gate, we're going to the plane and getting like
rechecked and padded down in front of everybody, and it's like, what,
like what could possibly happen from the time you go
through TSA to the time you get to your gate
that are like, oh, we need to check this person again.
(25:10):
And obviously the people you talked to were brown, right,
so it's like, all right, they're putting on a little
show for everybody, like, hey, white people, Look, we're checking
them real good, y'all are gonna be good for this flight.
We double checked them. This is the second time we're
doing it, right, So it's like it's a lot of
this stuff that it's like, why are like the you're
talking about the liquid thing. It's like, what do we like,
is that actually a threat nowadays or are we just
(25:33):
doing it because you know, it's we feel safer if
we can't bring liquids, if you have to take off
our shoes.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
And they checking for liquids and they need to be
checking for solids seventyons. I don't think they're liquid with
that thing is metal? Okay, Noah, I'm curious to hear
from you about what Devin just talked about with biases
that come into TSA screenings.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
And let me say so, we just went to white Man.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Yeah, we just went to Miami and as a white
I was padded down both those directions, which was disturbing.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I was dressed pretty light.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
I had like shorts on, I don't know, t shirt.
I had just like a napkin in my pocket. So
it set off the detector. It seemed like they pointed
at the thing. They're like, there's something in your groin area.
I'm like, okay, you can.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Pap me down.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Then we have to wait for the advisor to come
and supervise it. It was like a twenty two year
old guy doing it. I'm like, all right, I'm standing around.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
He does it.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Obviously there's nothing in there. So then I'm on my
way back. I'm like, all right, no tissues this time,
Like I'll find one.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I'll find one.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Later on in the in the gate, same shorts, empty
pockets happens again so I'm like, I don't know, Like, so,
you know, all to say is, you know, I understand
now what everyone's going through.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Like Manny Nore essentially a black man.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Now, yes, I wasn't gonna say it, but yeah, I
mean it is like but when Daryl was saying that,
it is like, once we're already at the gate and
gone through security, it is like you just wonder what
the actual directive is from, you know, top down, to
be like all right, now pull some extra people and
just search them again later on, Like is that in
writing anywhere? Like how does that actually get communicated? Is
(27:23):
kind of what's hard for me to even really fathom.
But obviously it like these people are there making barely
any money. They're not doing this for fun, you know.
So it's like, right, I don't know, it's it is
mind blowing.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, I mean, it feels like it's become so normalized
and I'm not really sure how we got here. Like
nine to eleven happens and then everybody's racist against people
wearing key jobs, brown people, people who they just assume
look arab, and it feels like it made its way
through TSA. Maybe it was in the training, like if
(27:57):
you see these types of people, you have to screen
them extra but it's persistent. I think I remember where
I was for nine eleven. I mean I was barely born,
but I think that's right. But I remember George Bush
(28:17):
being like, you're basically with us or you're with terrorism,
and that those were your choices. Yeah, And so I
think you start to see this empowerment or overreach from
this organization, and people are like signing up and feeling like, yes,
I am a guardian of the flight galaxy, and it
(28:38):
just spirals. And now every now and then it's rare
you see somebody like really push back against TSA. I
saw a man recently in HM where was I coming
from from Brussels coming back to Atlanta. They took that
man away, and when the door closed, I said, we'll
never hear from that man again. He was yelling out,
he was saying things. They took him behind that door.
I said, that's sound proof. That's a problem. If you
(29:00):
don't need a soundproof door in the airport, not that
I can think of, and I don't want to go
behind it. If there is a The Government Accountability Office
(29:20):
or the GAO in twenty twenty three found TSA collects
discrimination complaints but doesn't systematically analyze the outcomes by race
and gender. This is an opportunity for machine learning bias detection.
This is an opportunity to go back to the basics,
because what kind of data analysis? Then, what are you
(29:42):
doing with it? They said, throw it in the air.
Don't compile the results, just throw it in the air.
The thing is, most people don't file complaints, just like
you said, you know, like I didn't feel comfortable or
this thing was happening, But nobody wants to be on
the no fly list. Nobody wants to have all future
travel impacted, so you kind of just suck it up. Yeah,
And I'm like, I wonder what is it? Do you
think it's just fear that keeps us not saying anything
(30:06):
and allowing them to talk to us crazy out the
side of their neckstep psa, like even if they are
stressed out, Like, what do you think allows us to
continue to go on? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (30:14):
I feel like, you know, nine times out of ten
and you're out of airport, you're kind of in a rush.
You're like, you don't really have a ton of time
to strike up a conversation or do a more procedural complaint,
and you know, like inconveniences that happened in my regular,
everyday life. It takes a lot for me to be like,
wait a second, I got to confront someone about this.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Okay, they are updating the machines, but a lot of
trans people going through the older algorithm for the body
scanners would get stopped because they would be like, I
perceive you as a man, why is there something in
your growing area? And they would get pated down, and
a lot of them said a lot of trans people
said like I like it was embarrassing, so I didn't
(30:57):
want to draw attention to it. So I'm not going
to file a complaint or talk about it afterwards. I'm
just going to keep it moving. And I think that's
kind of mentality everybody has with TSA, is just sort
of like it's for the better good. Like shortest sucks
for me, but like if I have to be inconvenience
so they can stop somebody who's trying to, you know,
bring a gun or a bomb onto the plane, then
it's okay, right, it's fine. I think you saw the
(31:20):
similar energy like you're saying after nine eleven, where you know,
like the government was doing some stuff and taking away
some rights, and people were like, well, I'm not a terrorist,
so it doesn't really matter that, like if they're listening
to my phone calls or like monitoring my online conversations.
And I think like, now because we have some distance
from it, people are starting to be like, WHOA, that's
like where the government was doing a lot, Maybe we
(31:41):
need to take back somebody's rights. But I think any
aftermath of some of these big events, people are more
willing to give up their rights or be inconvenience for
the quote unquote greater good, even if in this case,
the greater good is not doing that great of a
job at keeping us safe.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
And TSA ends up not having any incentive to ever
address the source of our complaints. Anyway, it's a federal
organization and they're not necessarily making money. Like if there
were a company, a private company, where you know, a
large amount of complaints might actually affect their business, then
they would feel incentivized to address them. But you know,
(32:17):
it's kind of like, why would they care about our complaints?
That's they're just like the end all be all for
airport security as of now. Yeah, yeah, and like you're
still gonna fly when you need to see your family
or do whatever. It's not like it's not like picking
a airline or something, and it's just like you just
need to go there and do.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
It right, because I'm not taking to greyhound. That's a
really great point that all of you are making. I
think the machines with trans folks, people with wheelchairs and
medical devices and things like that. TSA claims to accommodate them,
but we always hear all of these horror stories about
wheelchairs being broken and devices being misplaced or lost or broken,
(32:57):
and it's just like, who were these systems built to serve?
And who is it not built to serve? And it's
clear that they are excluded from that scope. I think
the point that you bring up about privatization is also
a good point, because there's a bill in Congress right now,
the abolished TSA Act that I think a Republican out
(33:18):
of Utah actually put up, and it would transfer airport
screening to private companies. Yeah, twenty two United States airports,
including San Francisco, use private screeners under TSA's Screening Partnership program,
same rules, just different employer badge. So studies show that
they are able to get people through faster, but they're
(33:39):
not more effective. It's not like they're catching more security risks.
Do you guys feel like that would fix something or
just make it harder for folks to be held accountable
in the ways that they need to be held accountable,
like we were just talking about with biases.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
We actually gotten a very angry email after our episode
about this because San Francisco has private security. No, but
they're you know, they're following the rules of the TSA,
so they have to be TSA compliance to someone who's
basically reaching out being like privatization is not the way
to go. I fly out of San Francisco and I
have all these same issues, which I didn't think we
said privatization was the way to go in the episode,
(34:17):
but I think, yeah, simply making airport security private doesn't
fix the problem if you're still abiding by TSA rules
and you know, like if you still have all these
same issues of like not paying people a lot of money,
like the rules being confusing, not having job security people
like turnover larry to being high, like it doesn't matter
(34:37):
who really is in charge, right, Like you got to
rethink the system entirely, which you know I haven't read
too much in this to this bill, but I don't
think that's what this is attempting to do. I think
the real way to fix TSA is like a big,
huge overhaul, and I think it's hard to do that
without like an event causing people to really like put
(35:00):
to urgency and like money and effort into it. So
I don't see it ever being fixed at this point
because there's like, you know, it's one thing for there
to be a big event to cause you to like
up airport security. What's going to be a big event
for people to be like, oh, maybe we should be
more chill about like airport security.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Right. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (35:21):
I'm generally a proponent of government taking on responsibility of
some things as long as it's obviously done in an efficient,
in a smart way. Yeah, I worry that if airport
security became privatized. We've seen it a million times before,
even with airlines, where they'll take certain shortcuts in order
to maximize profits, and that ends up leading to disastrous
(35:43):
events happening. And so we are kind of, like, as
Evan's been saying, we're kind of in a conundrum here
because I don't want it to be private but I
also don't like what it is right now. Yeah, I
think the main thing is like we we mainly, I mean,
the biggest complaint is we just want consistency. Like it's
fine if it's horrible to need to take you shoes off,
but like, at least I would like to know that
(36:03):
I need to do that, Like, like why not just
make a big newsletter you smail out to everyone like
a phone book at the beginning of the year and say,
this year, take the laptops out, keep your shoes on,
no liquids, no baby milk, whatever, like until.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
You get another one of these. That's the rule for
every airport in the United States. And like it can
be private, public, whatever you want.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, I think it seems like what you're advocating for
is some big event in the reverse where we can
get relaxed. Personally, I would like it to just be
a lottery thing. Like you get there, you pull a number,
and you don't know if you're gonna get screened or not.
Now you know, and that really get it randomized. We
(36:46):
see what's going on, you can't control it. Like the
price is right, you come on at a little fun
a little gamification to the process I do.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Are the other people just going through.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
It's like you are in the studio audience. We're picking
five out of years. The rest of y'all go and
we get to see your entire contents of your bag.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
Yeah, we're going through everything.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
You can give it away too.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Some of the stuff, I just think there's just it
feels like this unnecessary thing to me. But I think
also there there is some good that comes out of TSA.
I think we know that. I think there are some
flawed policies for sure. I mean, we've talked about real
I D. But what we haven't talked about, you know,
is you mentioned there should be a newsletter where they
(37:40):
should say this is exactly what you should be screened for.
Everybody's talking about real ID, but there's like eleven things
that TSA said, Now you can include this in your
bag and we won't stop you. TSA is tweeting funny
memes and I'm like, this is what you need to
be outy. I'm not laughing. This should what should be
on threats, like not not you roasting the Windy's, you know,
(38:03):
like it just can I put my ratail comb in
my back right right? I think I'm curious. You know,
I've given you my take, and we always like to
have something a little fun. Uh. If you were to
build our airport security from scratch based on what you know? Now, okay,
how would you build one that you felt like actually
(38:24):
kept us safe and treated people with dignity? Already told
you by Mark the Lottery.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Yeah, I actually I think that you can do like
you should treat airports like you're getting on a train.
M There's no you didn't. No one's looking through your
bag when you get on a train.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
You know.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
It's like and I think the things that would stop
someone from hijacking a plane like have nothing to do
with them checking your bags.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Right.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
The cockpits are enforced down so you can't get in
there if you're not a pilot. Everybody else on the
plane if you do some fishy stuff, as we see,
people will jump on you, like I saw. I was
just watching video the other day of a flight attendant
punching his dude in the face because he was having
like some sort of spasm and he was pulling like
this woman's here in front of him, and my dude
(39:12):
was like boxing, and it's like people aren't people don't. Yeah,
people don't have that energy like pre nine to eleven.
It's like if you do anything fishy on a plane
like ten, people would be like, what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (39:24):
So I think between just those two things, like most
of the situations will be taken care of.
Speaker 5 (39:29):
Sometimes in smaller airports, i'll see better technology where you
can kind of implement newer stuff a little easier because
not so many people go through that airport. This happened
to me in Hartford, Connecticut. They have an airport up there,
and there was a lot of people at the airport,
but the security line was a sinch because we're just
(39:50):
like moving through this like futuristic kind of. I don't
know exactly what it was, but I wondered if it
was detecting, you know, for a bomb. And that's pretty
much it. Like there's blades. I'm not super worried about guns.
Obviously I'm worried about but like I walk around every
day around gun like that.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
My god, you want problems, I got problems too.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
I really just want to make sure that the plane
lands and it's at its destination. All the other stuff,
I feel like, you know, I don't know, I'm just
I've never been that worried about it.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
I think they should use more dogs for sniffing the bombs.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Perhaps. I like seeing the dogs.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
It's a pretty harmless and you know, I think it's
a pretty painless way for it that to happen, to
have the dogs roaming, whether before or after. I think
we should have metal detectors.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
I'll say it.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
I would prefer no guns on the plane with me,
except for maybe an air marshall. Maybe I'm conservative, but yeah,
I think those two as like it's like going into
a sports you know, are like that plus ad you know,
add some things, and I think we should be pretty
good with that.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
I heard, Manny you tell a story, Devin, you told
a story. No, you didn't have that bad of a
story except in the neck end. Like I am interested
in any special airport stories that y'all have that kind
of crystallizes your all of how you feel about the
airport experiences.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
There are two things. One, the hoodie thing is always
a situation. It's like there's they're always telling you conflict,
take off your hoodie, and then the other person's like,
you don't need to take off your hoodie? Is like
all right, y'all need to talk. Y'all standing five feet
away from each other, maybe you can both get on
the same page, if not everybody else in the airport.
And then for a while I took like four or
(41:44):
five flights where every single time they like checked my
bag and like opened up my carry on, which y'all know,
when you pack your carry on, it's not it's not
meant to be opened and get in a hotel somewhere,
So they open it up, they go through everything, and
then they're like, yeah, you're good, and then they just
sort of push the mess of your open bag to you,
(42:07):
and there's no place to like lightly put it back there.
So I would ask like, like, what's is there anything
in there? Like what's happening? And they're like, basically, there's
nothing we can tell you. It happened consistently, like four
or five times when I was flying.
Speaker 5 (42:23):
Yeah, on the hoodie thing, there are dozens of us
who wear hoodies with without you know, any T shirt underneath.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I find it to be you you.
Speaker 4 (42:33):
Are, you are on your own with that.
Speaker 5 (42:36):
Yeah, I feel a little bit more comfortable in that scenario.
And sometimes I'll get as really often I'm like, are
you sure about that.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Happened.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
What's happened more than they should have let people like
that on the plane.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Because shirt.
Speaker 5 (42:55):
Tsa we're stopping bombs, guns and people who don't wear
T shirts under their.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
When you're in an airport, though it all feels right,
no shirt under your hoodie, that man clearly needs additional stream.
I think all of this stuff is because I watched
a lot of like con Air and you know, movies
like that, and I feel like, I, yeah, it's and
it's probably wrong, like hijackings and all these things. It's
(43:24):
probably wrong, But the media does such a number like
on our minds and what we think are clear and
present danger is. But I think, thank you very much
with Harrison Ford references there. But I do think, like
I'm more concerned about somebody like accessing my cell phone
(43:45):
and all of us getting like, like, I think I'm
much more worried about digital warfare or you know, digital
terrorism than I am, like physical because during COVID people
are going crazy and fighting on the flights, and so
I'm like, nobody's really risking that. If they are willing
to do that, then in the middle of a respiratory pandemic,
imagine what we do now. Similarly, I feel like it
(44:09):
might not be so much of a threat, or the
threat's not right, there is somewhere else.
Speaker 4 (44:13):
Yeah, most of the security researchers say, like most terrorist
organizations are not planning to hijack planes anymore, Like that's
not there's sadly easier ways to kill people. You know.
It's like the plane thing is a bit of a
hassle now, so they're doing other things, right, It's like airports,
and if airports are being targeted, they're targeting security lines.
(44:35):
They're not targeting the actual plane. And it's not like
TSA is strapped, you know. It's like when people go
through there shooting there, they can't do anything. They need
to look for the real police to come and help out.
So it's like it's it's to your point. It's like
I think the moment TSA was created, like it was
already outdated because that thing was not going to happen again, right,
(44:55):
Like they ran the playbook, it's over, they're not running
it again, But like we have created the whole system
for that old playbook. Rather than being like, all right,
what is going to be the next thing, we should
be worried.
Speaker 5 (45:05):
About I just thinking about TSAs with the hammers on them,
that that's I.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Don't want to be in that world ever, And you're
trying to.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
Do that much attitude.
Speaker 4 (45:16):
Yeah, he's like, I don't have a shirt on to
hear at gunpoint.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
I think one of the things is sometimes I see
it on the Internet where people are like, oh, would
you date this kind of person? And I feel like
police officers people a lot of times women just because
they also have statistically, uh terrible interactions with police officers.
A lot of times women are like, no, I would
never date a police officer. But I'm like, we haven't
talked about the bad attitudes of TSA officers and the
(45:44):
stigma around that, So would you date a TSA officer on?
Speaker 5 (45:52):
No, But obviously there are going to be some exceptions.
I think if someone is.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
There's some goods officers you're.
Speaker 5 (45:59):
Saying, you know, really, I think it's gonna hate to
sound a very surface level here, but if it comes
down to the looks, really, I think.
Speaker 4 (46:08):
If they if they think it looks are good enough,
you'll overlook them working at TSA.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Oh yeah, blanket No.
Speaker 5 (46:14):
But obviously, if halle Berry was a TSA officer. I'm
trying to say is that there are some exceptions reconsidered.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
That's what means that you always say the rules change enough.
Speaker 5 (46:24):
Yeah, everyone has everyone has a stance.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Oh my god, I've always wanted to be with the TSA.
Cut me down. I have no shirt on my head.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
I just wanted to let.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
You know.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
What I we. We had a listener who was like,
there's a type of person who takes this job. And
it's like it's a person who like wants power, you know,
and like it doesn't matter if it's just like telling
people what to put in the basket or whatever. But
I don't think I could. I don't think I could.
I think that energy, like someone who has the energy
(47:04):
to be even decent at their job at t s
A is like not energy I would.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Want around me, even if they look like Zendia Date.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
We said, date, all right, fair enough Date. I think
I would consider it.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
I mean, I don't think it's like a cop.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
I mean, I understand the point, but it's also you
can say that about teachers or something, you know, respectfully,
all the teachers teachers put teachers if you want a
teachers hour in there, I'm not saying it's the same thing.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
That's all I'm saying, Wow, I go on a date.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
I'd go on a date with you.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
I don't know what teachers are catching straight to date.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
With a teacher too.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
While we're having teacher.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Appreciation Week right now, appreciation, it was like they're overpaid qualified.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
First of all, take some of the teacher paychecks. Put
them the TSA.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
I feel like I learned a lot with all that
we know. Now, what are you going to be doing
different the next time you fly? Z leaving a little
bit more time because I know the recitlease don't have
your real eye DC. You know I cut it close anyway.
I say, if my friend, let me tell you, she's
chasing the plane down the tarment one second, one second?
Excuse me, excuse me? Ahwa's what about you? Are you
(48:25):
doing anything different? I think for me, I don't want
to go later because them lines are too long. I'd
rather sit in the airport. I really would then be
in a line sweating because I've seen people sweat. Excuse me,
Can I get in front of you? And then people
be like no, I'm like, that's so mean. I always
say you can get in front of me. I think
for me, I just the awareness of, you know, what
(48:47):
is going on with TSA, like what they're looking for,
why they do certain things, that kind of takes the
edge off because I'm just like, Okay, now that makes sense, yes,
you know what I mean, and knowing their conditions, maybe
we should be smiling at them, bring a piece of
chocolate for them, you know. Yeah, yeah, they have it bad.
They do have it bad. And number of breast milk flying.
I think I'm done with that. There you go, T
(49:08):
and T boobs all right back. Yes, thank you so
much to Devin, Manny and Noah. Y'all were great and
we can't wait to have y'all back. Yes, everybody. Check
out No Such Thing anywhere you get podcasts, and also
check out the Daryl Kimmel article the humiliating history of
(49:30):
the TSA. Just google it, you'll find it so good.
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast tt is on X and Instagram at dr
Underscore t Sho, and you can find Zakiya at z
said So. Dope Labs is a production of Lemonada Media.
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour. And our Associate
(49:53):
producer is Issara Sives. Dope Labs is sound design, edited
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(50:16):
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I'm t T and I'm Zakiyah and this is Dope Labs.
Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore
science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
I don't think I've ever asked you this, zee. Do
(00:25):
you like traveling? I mean, I travel a lot, and
I think usually I do. But it's just the little
in between time before I get to my gate and
board the plane, Like everything leading up to that, like
from when I wake up that morning to that point,
is stressful. It really gets on my nerves. And I
(00:46):
you know, I always pack at the last minute. Yeah,
of course, of course. And then I have to figure out,
am I taking an uber which is gonna be a
trillion dollars to the airport? Am I driving myself to
the airport? Which I used to like doing? But then
I get there, none of the information is corrected. The
Atlanta Airport sometimes they're like, oh, this parking lot is full.
It's like I just passed a digital sign that you
could easily update remotely that says this airport lot is available.
(01:10):
I wouldn't even come this way. And then I think
the gotcha, gotcha, guess who's coming to dinner. Part is
what your experience at TSA is gonna be, Like, it's
gonna be seven minutes or seventy you know, Oh my gosh, TSA.
It feels like everyone has an attitude. Folks are yelling,
people have their shoes off, people are struggling with the bens.
(01:33):
It is a nightmare. Yes, and so by the time
you get through there, it's like, I don't even want
to go. Actually, I'm going home. My shoes, I'm going home.
This sounds like a great topic to dive into today
because summer is near, and that means we are hitting
the friendli skuys. People are going on vacations, they flying out,
they flying folks out. I don't know what your business is.
(01:56):
I think you're right. So let's jump into the recitation
to figure out what we know and what we want
to know about TSA. Well, we know that the TSA
is meant to keep us safe and that there is
an attitude needed to serve in that role, a very
particular attitude. Yes, okay. So we know that the TSA
stands for the Transportation Security Administration and it's a part
(02:19):
of the Department of Homeland Security, and it's in charge
of keeping the nation's transportation systems safe. So that's airports, rails, highways, pipelines,
you name it. I have never seen the TSA at
a train station now, but I'm not going not too
much on it, but I just want to say that.
And we know that the rules for travel are constantly changing,
(02:42):
sometimes from my being to the next person's being, and
from one airport to another. Sometimes you got to throw
out your heat protected or your expensive perfume. So we
know that. So what do we want to know personally?
I want to know more about the tech. It's a
different scanner at every airport. Whether it's gonna pick up
my ank lit or not, I don't know how is
(03:03):
that working. And speaking of tech, I want to know
about the tech associated with you know, the real idea
that they're saying that we have to have you have yours. Yes,
they've been telling us this for six years. Oh, I
know some folks still don't got it. I know they don't.
They're going to be at home. That's wild to me.
(03:23):
But I also want to know if TSA is actually
protecting us or is it just the illusion of protection,
Because I feel like I'm constantly seeing like women lived
in airport for two weeks or snuck onto plane. I'm like,
I can't sneak a lotion into my carry on, so
how did that happen? I think this is a great
(03:45):
place to start, so let's jump into the dissection for
today's lab our. Guests are the hosts of No Such
Thing podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
My name is Manny. I'm a co hosts for No
Such Thing. I'm Noah.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I'm also a cost of No Such Thing.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
And I'm Devin also I'm co host. I'm No such Thing.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
But before we get into the nitty gritty, let's get
some background on TSA. So the TSA became a thing
in November nineteenth of two thousand and one, so that
was barely two months after nine to eleven, and it
was out of the Aviation and Transportation Security Act and
so on the heels of nine to eleven and all
of the reaction, TSA was able to federalize sixty thousand screeners,
(04:32):
so those are people to screen you coming through. In
under a year. They had a budget that ballooned from
one billion dollars in two thousand and two to fast
forward to today a budget of over ten billion dollars.
So it's about to be summer. Last summer, TSA screened
over three million people in one day. People. That's a
ton of people. We're heading into another record season and
(04:53):
they're expected to surpass about eight hundred million screenings this year,
and I'm just like, what's going on with tsall?
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Right?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Is this system keeping up? Are we just squeezing more
people through the same old bottom nicks? Yeah, Okay, y'all
did a great episode about TSA on your podcast, so
I want to know y'all's take on the TSA.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
I was actually in your neck of the woods in
Atlanta in January and I got stuck at in the
TSA lines, and I think it was one of the
inspirations to do this episode, which was like, I'm getting
yelled at by this guy who's telling me not to
take my laptop out, even though the sign behind him
is saying that I have to take my laptop out.
(05:31):
And I think, just like, these frustrations are so common.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
This is my wheelhouse because I've worked with a lot
of scanning devices in my day. Go off, let me
come the reason why we have to take the laptops out,
so the old school X rays they can't really see
through dense batteries, So you have to take your laptop
out of your bag so that I can really get,
(05:56):
you know, a good picture. It's not about the laptop,
about the items in the bag. Yeah, that's not clear
to other items. Yeah, because it's a two D X ray.
So they fire a fan shaped X ray beams straight
through your bag and it produces this flat picture on
the monitor, and they calculate density by how much of
(06:19):
that beam is absorbed. The more dense an object is,
the brighter that blob is on the screen. So lithium
ion laptop batteries pack layers of metal foil, so aluminum,
copper and some other metals, and plus this steel shell
that's around the battery, and those have high atopic numbers,
(06:39):
and so those are gonna light up like a Christmas
tree when you send it through that X ray scanner.
And so then they can't see my you know, over
three point four ounce perfume that's in my bag if
the laptop is blocking it exactly, exactly, somebody should have
said that I thought they were looking for things in
my laptop and that's why it needed to be out
the bag. Yes, I mean it. If they explain that
(07:00):
I feel like a lot of folks would be less upset.
It's like, hey, this big old laptop battery is just
blocking everything else. I don't know if you got, you know,
a hammer in there, or if you in Atlanta a
hammer in there. Hammer. Yeah. So with the new types
of scanners, they're called computed tomography scanners, they fire hundreds
(07:24):
of X rays slices, producing a three D model of
what's inside of your bag. So the software is able
to see your laptop and rotate it around and see
what's all around it. So it could basically pick up
your bag rotated on the screen, it could see every
item that's in there. So there's no need to take
your laptop out because they can see everything. So laptop
(07:45):
in the bag when you have these new scanners. Ah,
So it's just do you have the old tech or
the new tech exactly. And TSA has been rolling out
CT units since twenty twenty four and it's been installed
at more than two hundred and fifty lanes nationwide and
they have one point three billion dollars with a B
to finish the job over the next few years, so
(08:07):
they're going to be rolling out more and more. So
I think people can be excited about being able to
leave their laptops in their bag. Eventually, well it doesn't
stop there.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
We've got a new layer coming into this whole tsa
thing because the real ID.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Yes. So the nine to eleven Commission set up the
real ID Act of two thousand and five and signed
it in two thousand and five. So we've had some time.
They were flagging sloppy state by state license rules and
they were saying, hey, this is a security gap. So
it ordered the Department of Homeland Security to set a
minimum issuance and car security standard before any ID could
(08:45):
be used to board a plane or intra federal site.
Now what this means is that you have a superdense
card that can hold a lot of information compared to
a non real ID card, and all fifty six jurisdictions
in the United States must encode the same data fields,
so every scanner can speak the same language, just like, hey, everybody,
(09:06):
let's get on the same page, get the choreography right,
and we can say who's passing with real ID or
who's failing get information? And so there are some anti
counterfeit elements that are incorporated into the real ID, so
they have UV ghost images, microprinting, laser perforations, color shift, inc.
(09:26):
And that telltale star that is on the front of
your ID. That's the only thing I've noticed is the star. Okay,
if you have a real ID, take it out, look
at it. You'll see all of these little characteristics that
all make it so that it's harder to counterfeit or
almost impossible to counterfeit the ID.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
Even getting a real ID is kind of paining the
ass because I tried to get one a couple of
years ago, Like, went to the DMV with this mission
in mind, and I guess I brought like only three
out of the four documents I and I just ended
up waiting in line for three hours and getting a
regular ass ID. And so now I've just taken my
(10:07):
passport everywhere with me.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
So just steal no star. Steal no star on your idea.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Yeah, you don't get the star on a corner.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Sticker on the It's terrible stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So the way that real ID works when you get
to the TSA podium is that their tablet checks it
in about a second and at the checkpoint, a credential
authentication technology or CAT unit grabs the barcode decodes your name,
your data, birth, your license number and issuing state, and
then the embedded security signatures they confirm that the card
(10:37):
hasn't been tampered with, and then using a secure look
up via the American Association of Motor Vehicles Administrations in
their network, they make sure that you don't hold two
licenses in different states. Yeah, out they're catfish and they're
gonna find you and then be with the credential authentication
(10:57):
technology so cat as we were calling, it is also
wired to the TSA Secure flight database, so they're able
to instantly match your ID with your flight reservation. So
the end result is something very close to a two
factor authentication for your face and your ticket without even
having a hand over your boarding pass.
Speaker 4 (11:16):
Well, I saw today the reporter was saying that lax,
because of course nobody knows this is happening, and nobody
has their real IDs, and they're saying if you don't
have real i D, they just give you a piece
of paper that says you should get a real i
D and they still let you go through. Okay, well
next time, next time, this lax.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Don't you know.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I can't speak for a friendly.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
The big deadline is just a friendly reminder.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Yeah, they kept pushing it back for five years to
remind you.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
They're like, oh, that's today.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You talked about being yelled at by TSA, and I
think everyone has stories about being yelled at by TSA.
It feels like that's what you have to be able
to do to have the job, is yell at strangers
who are dragging a bag and a baby and all
these things behind them. Why is this the case? I mean,
(12:23):
it feels like, specifically TSA screening, it still feels so
fraud even though we're twenty plus years after nine eleven,
which is when you know TSA really really really became
a thing.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Yeah, I guess, yeah, that was my big thing, right,
It's like, what, Okay, it's hard enough to follow the rules,
Why are y'all coming with this energy like chill?
Speaker 1 (12:46):
You know.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
It's like, if you're gonna make it confusing, I'm gonna
be confused. That's like the way it's gonna work. But
when we talked to Darryl, like, it did make me
feel a little bit more sympathetic because they're one of
the lowest paid government workers, you know, they they start
out making I think he said like thirty five K,
and then they work their way up to forty two,
(13:07):
which is nothing, especially nowadays, and then for a long
period of time they're on probation. So it's like they're
yelling at you because they're trying not to get in
trouble from their supervisors because if they do anything within
I think he said those first two years that is deemed,
you know, a violation about their supervisor. The's not like
(13:27):
trial or anything, you could just get fired. So I
think they're anxious because they're not being paid a lot,
and their supervisors are you know, have for any reasons
to fire them. So then they put that anxiety onto us,
the passengers who are just you know, trying to understand
the very confusing rules, and I think creates a cycle
(13:49):
because then we give them that energy back.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Mentioned Darryl and I have to shout him out. Dryl
Campbell is the author of this article, The Humiliating History
of TSA, and you all had him on your podcast
as well. Everybody should read that article because it led
to me looking up stats and it was saying that
like ts agents are in basically hostile work environments and
that could be what affects our customer service. It is
(14:11):
a lot to unpack, but I also am curious, like
TSA feels like such a huge production. Just recently, just
this past weekend, my bag got stuck and I was like,
what's happening? The guys like pause, I'm like, what the
machine is on pause? I'm on pause? Can I move
to the other line?
Speaker 5 (14:30):
Like?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Is anybody can get my stuff out of there? It
just always feels so confusing, and I'm like, oh, well,
they really are working hard, They're really protecting us. But
I saw where they said ninety five percent of the
time they were failing to like when they do these tests,
they're failing to detect mock weapons. And I'm like, in Atlanta,
I mean that's an all TSA. But baby, right, it
(14:56):
just feels like I'm concerned about that. You know where
we are. I'm throwing away full cans of he protected
for my hair and it's goods moving through you not
just feel like my motion back yes, And I just
feel like, is this something that's about compliance or is
this about actual threat detection? And where do we land
(15:19):
on that it is TSA deterring threats?
Speaker 4 (15:23):
I think the long and short of it is no
like they're pretty bad at stopping. Like you said, the
I think a ninety number. They they said, hey, we
got better. A couple of years later after that, I
think it was like twenty seventeen. Seventy percent of the
weapons got through.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
That's a that's not good. That's still still thirty out
of one hundred.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
You're letting a lot of weapons. Should be zero. But yeah,
there's been lots of studies on this.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Right.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
They do this like cost per late life saved metric.
If we want to say, like TSA, you're stopping every
single terrorist attack. Is the only organization that's going to
stop it. There's no police that, there's no FBI, we
have no intelligence, it's all TSA. If we say that,
if we give them that benefit of the doubt, it's
fifteen million dollars per life save, which is well above
(16:13):
what you know the government wants to spend. If you
start to take into account, well, you know, you got
the FBI, you got other agencies involved. Most people who
are planning this type of thing don't even make it
onto the plane. Then it goes up to something like
I think he said, like one hundred million, five hundred million.
Like the numbers get crazy high. But it's the sort
(16:35):
of thing where it's this is just the way that
it's been.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
We haven't had another nine eleven since nine to eleven,
So nobody wants to put their neck out and be like, oh,
maybe we should stop doing this thing, because what if
a year from now there is another terrorist attack. Even
if TSA wouldn't have stopped it, there's always going to
be that thing in the back of people's minds of like, oh,
we should have just kept doing that annoying thing.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Right. There was a time where me and Takia we
uh we travel with the well to the same place
a few times in the last year, and we were
leaving Boston and I had a newborn baby and so
I was like I was pumping and things like that,
and I had this big ass container of breast milk
(17:18):
and so they were like, okay, we have to swap it.
I said, that's fine. They came back and said it
tested positive for explosives.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Any explanation, Yeah, was this true? Yeah? Did they stop you?
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Yeah, we gotta take we gotta take you to a lab.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I was like, excuse me, and he was like, yeah,
so we have to do more testing. So they called
this man out, that's like the head of bomb squad
or something. He comes out with this whole kit. He's
taking droppers of my breast milk and cringing it into
all these things. And he's like, I can confirm that
is a liquid, and I can confirm that it is
(18:03):
not alcohol. Yeah, me too.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
The baby can confirm that.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
No, that man drunk all the time. And he said,
I can say that it is not explosive, but I
cannot say that it is milk.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
I imagine the TSA machines aren't necessarily built to confirm
whether something is milk or not.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Right, So what those initial swaps are looking for is
trace nitro benzene residue. So that's a cousin to TNT
or dynamite. And the problem with that is that gliscerin
and lotions hand sanitizer and even some breast milk bags
can mimic the chemical signature of nitro benzene, and so
that might explain the flag on my breast milk or
(18:53):
or you know, yes, I am Alex Mack. Are y'all
too young for Alex Mack? I am it? Look it up.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
I ran into a similar thing in Atlanta once again,
where I go through the machine and it's beeping, and
I go back and I take off my belt and
I go through and it beeps again. And you know,
we went through that over and over in tim like
almost naked at this point, and it's still beeping. And
so finally they're like, okay, we have to pat you down,
and they, to their credit, gave me a little warning
(19:23):
that the pat down was like pretty invasive, and I
was like, whatever, I need to get back to New York.
But at the end I asked him, I was like, so,
why does the machine beep if there's no metal on me?
And he just said he just shrugged his shoulders. He
said he doesn't and didn't know. And then I was like,
all right bye, Like that just wasted twenty minutes of
my life, and it feels like these machines should be
(19:44):
better equipped to handle that.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
We talked about scanning bodies earlier, but scanning people is
where I also lose my cool for TSA, because metal
detectors feels like such old technology. It is the first
airport deployment of metal detectors came in nineteen seventy three,
after a whole bunch of hijacking platforms. People were wearing
platforms and build bottomies going through metal detectors. Yes, with
(20:07):
the big collars on your shirt. Then by the early eighties,
the magnetometer arc was really common in all airports, and
today TSA still fields thousands of units nationwide, especially in
the pre check lanes, because they're cheap, fast and require
no radiation waivers. So the amount of radiation that comes
(20:30):
out of those arcs is below the limit that will
require you to sign a waiver to go. Wait, but
what if you're going through a lot. I don't know.
You got to tell me how this works. Because I'm
going through a lot. You need a docimiter. Yes, I
do tell me that the little quick click clicklicklick tell
me the dose. Now do remember that from experiments lab Absolutely.
(20:50):
And the way that these metal detectors work is that
there is a coil in the side panels that fire
one hundred to one thousand micropulses of current per second,
and each current generates a magnetic field very quickly, and
when the pulse stops, the field snaps back and induces
a tiny echo current in the coil. And if a
(21:12):
metal object is in that field, the electrons on that
metal object will wiggle some, stretching the echo for a
few extra microseconds, and the machine measures that stretch, so
then it's able to create a sound. So it bounces
back and it creates this be beep to let you
(21:32):
know metal has been detected. Huh. And so I don't
think I realized that. But also I don't have to
carry a docimitar because I am able to walk by
those machines. And I want to talk about being able
to bypass those machines because it feels like for ninety dollars,
I can avoid all of that. And now I can
keep my shoes on and my laptop can stay in
(21:53):
my bag and my camera whatever, everything full size, everything
be going through there, okay, big mom, Big mom. And
I'm like, what is it that these things like clear
and pre check. Is it that heaven ninety dollars makes
me less of a threat, Like.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
If you got at, you ain't going too much?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
You got too much slip for here?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
He nah, you're a terrorist. And what kind of surveillance
are we opting into? Because I know if the line
where they scan me is shorter, I'm going there and
I know better. But I'm going there.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah. Pre check is a background check with fingerprints that
shows that you're low risk, and TSA still screens your
back clear. Do you give private biometrics so your iris,
your eyeball, or your face verifies you and then hands
you to TSA. It's in ID fast passed and it's
not a security pass. One of the things I have
(22:56):
been so shocked to find out is that only fifteen
percent of travelers have pre check. Less than two percent
used Clear. Let me tell you, the last time I
was at the airport, it did not feel. It doesn't
feel my line was wrapped around the corner. I said,
imight as well go through regular security and take off
from my shoes. I would have been done faster. One
percent is in Atlanta because it feels like everybody has
pre check and Clear. And so I just don't understand
(23:19):
because in my world, money does not equal innocence. Okay,
So I don't know. You can have a lot of
money and some ill intent, you know, yeah, most of
the people I know what a lot of money got
ill intent. I'm talking about Zakiah.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
What I just actually just got pre checked, and I
was kind of shocked by how quickly it happened. Well,
they fingerprint you, which is the big thing, and then
like I needed to provide you give them a lot
of information. The thing is like, I have no idea
what they're doing with that information, right, So they they
ran some sort of background check on me to make
(23:54):
sure I guess I'm not a terrorist because I got
caught in the line where it took me like two
hours through security and I was like, I can't let
that happen again. I guess I gotta spend the ninety
dollars And I'm like, yeah, what is that? What is
having my fingerprints? Like why is that the difference?
Speaker 5 (24:11):
Yeah, God forbid someone wants to do something that's you know,
similar to like a suicide mission, they're not gonna They're like, fine,
take my fingerprints.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Who care?
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Like that's not really a deterrent, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
And I also don't think terror is on a background
report like r I just had two years in terrorist school.
I just don't think. I just don't know what we're
gonna get there.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
It's something that came up when we talked to Darryl,
This this concept of security theater. Right, So it's like
doing a bunch of stuff that makes it look like
we're a lot safer than we are, and that's kind
of all that needs to happen.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
He talked about how he interviewed some people who were
being stopped, like once you get past TSA at the
actual gate, we're going to the plane and getting like
rechecked and padded down in front of everybody, and it's like, what,
like what could possibly happen from the time you go
through TSA to the time you get to your gate
that are like, oh, we need to check this person again.
(25:10):
And obviously the people you talked to were brown, right,
so it's like, all right, they're putting on a little
show for everybody, like, hey, white people, Look, we're checking
them real good, y'all are gonna be good for this flight.
We double checked them. This is the second time we're
doing it, right, So it's like it's a lot of
this stuff that it's like, why are like the you're
talking about the liquid thing. It's like, what do we like,
is that actually a threat nowadays or are we just
(25:33):
doing it because you know, it's we feel safer if
we can't bring liquids, if you have to take off
our shoes.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
And they checking for liquids and they need to be
checking for solids seventyons. I don't think they're liquid with
that thing is metal? Okay, Noah, I'm curious to hear
from you about what Devin just talked about with biases
that come into TSA screenings.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
And let me say so, we just went to white Man.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Yeah, we just went to Miami and as a white
I was padded down both those directions, which was disturbing.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I was dressed pretty light.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
I had like shorts on, I don't know, t shirt.
I had just like a napkin in my pocket. So
it set off the detector. It seemed like they pointed
at the thing. They're like, there's something in your groin area.
I'm like, okay, you can.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Pap me down.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Then we have to wait for the advisor to come
and supervise it. It was like a twenty two year
old guy doing it. I'm like, all right, I'm standing around.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
He does it.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Obviously there's nothing in there. So then I'm on my
way back. I'm like, all right, no tissues this time,
Like I'll find one.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I'll find one.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Later on in the in the gate, same shorts, empty
pockets happens again so I'm like, I don't know, Like, so,
you know, all to say is, you know, I understand
now what everyone's going through.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Like Manny Nore essentially a black man.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Now, yes, I wasn't gonna say it, but yeah, I
mean it is like but when Daryl was saying that,
it is like, once we're already at the gate and
gone through security, it is like you just wonder what
the actual directive is from, you know, top down, to
be like all right, now pull some extra people and
just search them again later on, Like is that in
writing anywhere? Like how does that actually get communicated? Is
(27:23):
kind of what's hard for me to even really fathom.
But obviously it like these people are there making barely
any money. They're not doing this for fun, you know.
So it's like, right, I don't know, it's it is
mind blowing.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, I mean, it feels like it's become so normalized
and I'm not really sure how we got here. Like
nine to eleven happens and then everybody's racist against people
wearing key jobs, brown people, people who they just assume
look arab, and it feels like it made its way
through TSA. Maybe it was in the training, like if
(27:57):
you see these types of people, you have to screen
them extra but it's persistent. I think I remember where
I was for nine eleven. I mean I was barely born,
but I think that's right. But I remember George Bush
(28:17):
being like, you're basically with us or you're with terrorism,
and that those were your choices. Yeah, And so I
think you start to see this empowerment or overreach from
this organization, and people are like signing up and feeling like, yes,
I am a guardian of the flight galaxy, and it
(28:38):
just spirals. And now every now and then it's rare
you see somebody like really push back against TSA. I
saw a man recently in HM where was I coming
from from Brussels coming back to Atlanta. They took that
man away, and when the door closed, I said, we'll
never hear from that man again. He was yelling out,
he was saying things. They took him behind that door.
I said, that's sound proof. That's a problem. If you
(29:00):
don't need a soundproof door in the airport, not that
I can think of, and I don't want to go
behind it. If there is a The Government Accountability Office
(29:20):
or the GAO in twenty twenty three found TSA collects
discrimination complaints but doesn't systematically analyze the outcomes by race
and gender. This is an opportunity for machine learning bias detection.
This is an opportunity to go back to the basics,
because what kind of data analysis? Then, what are you
(29:42):
doing with it? They said, throw it in the air.
Don't compile the results, just throw it in the air.
The thing is, most people don't file complaints, just like
you said, you know, like I didn't feel comfortable or
this thing was happening, But nobody wants to be on
the no fly list. Nobody wants to have all future
travel impacted, so you kind of just suck it up. Yeah,
And I'm like, I wonder what is it? Do you
think it's just fear that keeps us not saying anything
(30:06):
and allowing them to talk to us crazy out the
side of their neckstep psa, like even if they are
stressed out, Like, what do you think allows us to
continue to go on? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (30:14):
I feel like, you know, nine times out of ten
and you're out of airport, you're kind of in a rush.
You're like, you don't really have a ton of time
to strike up a conversation or do a more procedural complaint,
and you know, like inconveniences that happened in my regular,
everyday life. It takes a lot for me to be like,
wait a second, I got to confront someone about this.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Okay, they are updating the machines, but a lot of
trans people going through the older algorithm for the body
scanners would get stopped because they would be like, I
perceive you as a man, why is there something in
your growing area? And they would get pated down, and
a lot of them said a lot of trans people
said like I like it was embarrassing, so I didn't
(30:57):
want to draw attention to it. So I'm not going
to file a complaint or talk about it afterwards. I'm
just going to keep it moving. And I think that's
kind of mentality everybody has with TSA, is just sort
of like it's for the better good. Like shortest sucks
for me, but like if I have to be inconvenience
so they can stop somebody who's trying to, you know,
bring a gun or a bomb onto the plane, then
it's okay, right, it's fine. I think you saw the
(31:20):
similar energy like you're saying after nine eleven, where you know,
like the government was doing some stuff and taking away
some rights, and people were like, well, I'm not a terrorist,
so it doesn't really matter that, like if they're listening
to my phone calls or like monitoring my online conversations.
And I think like, now because we have some distance
from it, people are starting to be like, WHOA, that's
like where the government was doing a lot, Maybe we
(31:41):
need to take back somebody's rights. But I think any
aftermath of some of these big events, people are more
willing to give up their rights or be inconvenience for
the quote unquote greater good, even if in this case,
the greater good is not doing that great of a
job at keeping us safe.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
And TSA ends up not having any incentive to ever
address the source of our complaints. Anyway, it's a federal
organization and they're not necessarily making money. Like if there
were a company, a private company, where you know, a
large amount of complaints might actually affect their business, then
they would feel incentivized to address them. But you know,
(32:17):
it's kind of like, why would they care about our complaints?
That's they're just like the end all be all for
airport security as of now. Yeah, yeah, and like you're
still gonna fly when you need to see your family
or do whatever. It's not like it's not like picking
a airline or something, and it's just like you just
need to go there and do.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
It right, because I'm not taking to greyhound. That's a
really great point that all of you are making. I
think the machines with trans folks, people with wheelchairs and
medical devices and things like that. TSA claims to accommodate them,
but we always hear all of these horror stories about
wheelchairs being broken and devices being misplaced or lost or broken,
(32:57):
and it's just like, who were these systems built to serve?
And who is it not built to serve? And it's
clear that they are excluded from that scope. I think
the point that you bring up about privatization is also
a good point, because there's a bill in Congress right now,
the abolished TSA Act that I think a Republican out
(33:18):
of Utah actually put up, and it would transfer airport
screening to private companies. Yeah, twenty two United States airports,
including San Francisco, use private screeners under TSA's Screening Partnership program,
same rules, just different employer badge. So studies show that
they are able to get people through faster, but they're
(33:39):
not more effective. It's not like they're catching more security risks.
Do you guys feel like that would fix something or
just make it harder for folks to be held accountable
in the ways that they need to be held accountable,
like we were just talking about with biases.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
We actually gotten a very angry email after our episode
about this because San Francisco has private security. No, but
they're you know, they're following the rules of the TSA,
so they have to be TSA compliance to someone who's
basically reaching out being like privatization is not the way
to go. I fly out of San Francisco and I
have all these same issues, which I didn't think we
said privatization was the way to go in the episode,
(34:17):
but I think, yeah, simply making airport security private doesn't
fix the problem if you're still abiding by TSA rules
and you know, like if you still have all these
same issues of like not paying people a lot of money,
like the rules being confusing, not having job security people
like turnover larry to being high, like it doesn't matter
(34:37):
who really is in charge, right, Like you got to
rethink the system entirely, which you know I haven't read
too much in this to this bill, but I don't
think that's what this is attempting to do. I think
the real way to fix TSA is like a big,
huge overhaul, and I think it's hard to do that
without like an event causing people to really like put
(35:00):
to urgency and like money and effort into it. So
I don't see it ever being fixed at this point
because there's like, you know, it's one thing for there
to be a big event to cause you to like
up airport security. What's going to be a big event
for people to be like, oh, maybe we should be
more chill about like airport security.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Right. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (35:21):
I'm generally a proponent of government taking on responsibility of
some things as long as it's obviously done in an efficient,
in a smart way. Yeah, I worry that if airport
security became privatized. We've seen it a million times before,
even with airlines, where they'll take certain shortcuts in order
to maximize profits, and that ends up leading to disastrous
(35:43):
events happening. And so we are kind of, like, as
Evan's been saying, we're kind of in a conundrum here
because I don't want it to be private but I
also don't like what it is right now. Yeah, I
think the main thing is like we we mainly, I mean,
the biggest complaint is we just want consistency. Like it's
fine if it's horrible to need to take you shoes off,
but like, at least I would like to know that
(36:03):
I need to do that, Like, like why not just
make a big newsletter you smail out to everyone like
a phone book at the beginning of the year and say,
this year, take the laptops out, keep your shoes on,
no liquids, no baby milk, whatever, like until.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
You get another one of these. That's the rule for
every airport in the United States. And like it can
be private, public, whatever you want.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, I think it seems like what you're advocating for
is some big event in the reverse where we can
get relaxed. Personally, I would like it to just be
a lottery thing. Like you get there, you pull a number,
and you don't know if you're gonna get screened or not.
Now you know, and that really get it randomized. We
(36:46):
see what's going on, you can't control it. Like the
price is right, you come on at a little fun
a little gamification to the process I do.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Are the other people just going through.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
It's like you are in the studio audience. We're picking
five out of years. The rest of y'all go and
we get to see your entire contents of your bag.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
Yeah, we're going through everything.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
You can give it away too.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Some of the stuff, I just think there's just it
feels like this unnecessary thing to me. But I think
also there there is some good that comes out of TSA.
I think we know that. I think there are some
flawed policies for sure. I mean, we've talked about real
I D. But what we haven't talked about, you know,
is you mentioned there should be a newsletter where they
(37:40):
should say this is exactly what you should be screened for.
Everybody's talking about real ID, but there's like eleven things
that TSA said, Now you can include this in your
bag and we won't stop you. TSA is tweeting funny
memes and I'm like, this is what you need to
be outy. I'm not laughing. This should what should be
on threats, like not not you roasting the Windy's, you know,
(38:03):
like it just can I put my ratail comb in
my back right right? I think I'm curious. You know,
I've given you my take, and we always like to
have something a little fun. Uh. If you were to
build our airport security from scratch based on what you know? Now, okay,
how would you build one that you felt like actually
(38:24):
kept us safe and treated people with dignity? Already told
you by Mark the Lottery.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Yeah, I actually I think that you can do like
you should treat airports like you're getting on a train.
M There's no you didn't. No one's looking through your
bag when you get on a train.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
You know.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
It's like and I think the things that would stop
someone from hijacking a plane like have nothing to do
with them checking your bags.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Right.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
The cockpits are enforced down so you can't get in
there if you're not a pilot. Everybody else on the
plane if you do some fishy stuff, as we see,
people will jump on you, like I saw. I was
just watching video the other day of a flight attendant
punching his dude in the face because he was having
like some sort of spasm and he was pulling like
this woman's here in front of him, and my dude
(39:12):
was like boxing, and it's like people aren't people don't. Yeah,
people don't have that energy like pre nine to eleven.
It's like if you do anything fishy on a plane
like ten, people would be like, what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (39:24):
So I think between just those two things, like most
of the situations will be taken care of.
Speaker 5 (39:29):
Sometimes in smaller airports, i'll see better technology where you
can kind of implement newer stuff a little easier because
not so many people go through that airport. This happened
to me in Hartford, Connecticut. They have an airport up there,
and there was a lot of people at the airport,
but the security line was a sinch because we're just
(39:50):
like moving through this like futuristic kind of. I don't
know exactly what it was, but I wondered if it
was detecting, you know, for a bomb. And that's pretty
much it. Like there's blades. I'm not super worried about guns.
Obviously I'm worried about but like I walk around every
day around gun like that.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
My god, you want problems, I got problems too.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
I really just want to make sure that the plane
lands and it's at its destination. All the other stuff,
I feel like, you know, I don't know, I'm just
I've never been that worried about it.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
I think they should use more dogs for sniffing the bombs.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Perhaps. I like seeing the dogs.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
It's a pretty harmless and you know, I think it's
a pretty painless way for it that to happen, to
have the dogs roaming, whether before or after. I think
we should have metal detectors.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
I'll say it.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
I would prefer no guns on the plane with me,
except for maybe an air marshall. Maybe I'm conservative, but yeah,
I think those two as like it's like going into
a sports you know, are like that plus ad you know,
add some things, and I think we should be pretty
good with that.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
I heard, Manny you tell a story, Devin, you told
a story. No, you didn't have that bad of a
story except in the neck end. Like I am interested
in any special airport stories that y'all have that kind
of crystallizes your all of how you feel about the
airport experiences.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
There are two things. One, the hoodie thing is always
a situation. It's like there's they're always telling you conflict,
take off your hoodie, and then the other person's like,
you don't need to take off your hoodie? Is like
all right, y'all need to talk. Y'all standing five feet
away from each other, maybe you can both get on
the same page, if not everybody else in the airport.
And then for a while I took like four or
(41:44):
five flights where every single time they like checked my
bag and like opened up my carry on, which y'all know,
when you pack your carry on, it's not it's not
meant to be opened and get in a hotel somewhere,
So they open it up, they go through everything, and
then they're like, yeah, you're good, and then they just
sort of push the mess of your open bag to you,
(42:07):
and there's no place to like lightly put it back there.
So I would ask like, like, what's is there anything
in there? Like what's happening? And they're like, basically, there's
nothing we can tell you. It happened consistently, like four
or five times when I was flying.
Speaker 5 (42:23):
Yeah, on the hoodie thing, there are dozens of us
who wear hoodies with without you know, any T shirt underneath.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I find it to be you you.
Speaker 4 (42:33):
Are, you are on your own with that.
Speaker 5 (42:36):
Yeah, I feel a little bit more comfortable in that scenario.
And sometimes I'll get as really often I'm like, are
you sure about that.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Happened.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
What's happened more than they should have let people like
that on the plane.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Because shirt.
Speaker 5 (42:55):
Tsa we're stopping bombs, guns and people who don't wear
T shirts under their.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
When you're in an airport, though it all feels right,
no shirt under your hoodie, that man clearly needs additional stream.
I think all of this stuff is because I watched
a lot of like con Air and you know, movies
like that, and I feel like, I, yeah, it's and
it's probably wrong, like hijackings and all these things. It's
(43:24):
probably wrong, But the media does such a number like
on our minds and what we think are clear and
present danger is. But I think, thank you very much
with Harrison Ford references there. But I do think, like
I'm more concerned about somebody like accessing my cell phone
(43:45):
and all of us getting like, like, I think I'm
much more worried about digital warfare or you know, digital
terrorism than I am, like physical because during COVID people
are going crazy and fighting on the flights, and so
I'm like, nobody's really risking that. If they are willing
to do that, then in the middle of a respiratory pandemic,
imagine what we do now. Similarly, I feel like it
(44:09):
might not be so much of a threat, or the
threat's not right, there is somewhere else.
Speaker 4 (44:13):
Yeah, most of the security researchers say, like most terrorist
organizations are not planning to hijack planes anymore, Like that's
not there's sadly easier ways to kill people. You know.
It's like the plane thing is a bit of a
hassle now, so they're doing other things, right, It's like airports,
and if airports are being targeted, they're targeting security lines.
(44:35):
They're not targeting the actual plane. And it's not like
TSA is strapped, you know. It's like when people go
through there shooting there, they can't do anything. They need
to look for the real police to come and help out.
So it's like it's it's to your point. It's like
I think the moment TSA was created, like it was
already outdated because that thing was not going to happen again, right,
(44:55):
Like they ran the playbook, it's over, they're not running
it again, But like we have created the whole system
for that old playbook. Rather than being like, all right,
what is going to be the next thing, we should
be worried.
Speaker 5 (45:05):
About I just thinking about TSAs with the hammers on them,
that that's I.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Don't want to be in that world ever, And you're
trying to.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
Do that much attitude.
Speaker 4 (45:16):
Yeah, he's like, I don't have a shirt on to
hear at gunpoint.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
I think one of the things is sometimes I see
it on the Internet where people are like, oh, would
you date this kind of person? And I feel like
police officers people a lot of times women just because
they also have statistically, uh terrible interactions with police officers.
A lot of times women are like, no, I would
never date a police officer. But I'm like, we haven't
talked about the bad attitudes of TSA officers and the
(45:44):
stigma around that, So would you date a TSA officer on?
Speaker 5 (45:52):
No, But obviously there are going to be some exceptions.
I think if someone is.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
There's some goods officers you're.
Speaker 5 (45:59):
Saying, you know, really, I think it's gonna hate to
sound a very surface level here, but if it comes
down to the looks, really, I think.
Speaker 4 (46:08):
If they if they think it looks are good enough,
you'll overlook them working at TSA.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Oh yeah, blanket No.
Speaker 5 (46:14):
But obviously, if halle Berry was a TSA officer. I'm
trying to say is that there are some exceptions reconsidered.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
That's what means that you always say the rules change enough.
Speaker 5 (46:24):
Yeah, everyone has everyone has a stance.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Oh my god, I've always wanted to be with the TSA.
Cut me down. I have no shirt on my head.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
I just wanted to let.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
You know.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
What I we. We had a listener who was like,
there's a type of person who takes this job. And
it's like it's a person who like wants power, you know,
and like it doesn't matter if it's just like telling
people what to put in the basket or whatever. But
I don't think I could. I don't think I could.
I think that energy, like someone who has the energy
(47:04):
to be even decent at their job at t s
A is like not energy I would.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Want around me, even if they look like Zendia Date.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
We said, date, all right, fair enough Date. I think
I would consider it.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
I mean, I don't think it's like a cop.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
I mean, I understand the point, but it's also you
can say that about teachers or something, you know, respectfully,
all the teachers teachers put teachers if you want a
teachers hour in there, I'm not saying it's the same thing.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
That's all I'm saying, Wow, I go on a date.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
I'd go on a date with you.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
I don't know what teachers are catching straight to date.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
With a teacher too.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
While we're having teacher.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Appreciation Week right now, appreciation, it was like they're overpaid qualified.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
First of all, take some of the teacher paychecks. Put
them the TSA.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
I feel like I learned a lot with all that
we know. Now, what are you going to be doing
different the next time you fly? Z leaving a little
bit more time because I know the recitlease don't have
your real eye DC. You know I cut it close anyway.
I say, if my friend, let me tell you, she's
chasing the plane down the tarment one second, one second?
Excuse me, excuse me? Ahwa's what about you? Are you
(48:25):
doing anything different? I think for me, I don't want
to go later because them lines are too long. I'd
rather sit in the airport. I really would then be
in a line sweating because I've seen people sweat. Excuse me,
Can I get in front of you? And then people
be like no, I'm like, that's so mean. I always
say you can get in front of me. I think
for me, I just the awareness of, you know, what
(48:47):
is going on with TSA, like what they're looking for,
why they do certain things, that kind of takes the
edge off because I'm just like, Okay, now that makes sense, yes,
you know what I mean, and knowing their conditions, maybe
we should be smiling at them, bring a piece of
chocolate for them, you know. Yeah, yeah, they have it bad.
They do have it bad. And number of breast milk flying.
I think I'm done with that. There you go, T
(49:08):
and T boobs all right back. Yes, thank you so
much to Devin, Manny and Noah. Y'all were great and
we can't wait to have y'all back. Yes, everybody. Check
out No Such Thing anywhere you get podcasts, and also
check out the Daryl Kimmel article the humiliating history of
(49:30):
the TSA. Just google it, you'll find it so good.
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope
Labs podcast tt is on X and Instagram at dr
Underscore t Sho, and you can find Zakiya at z
said So. Dope Labs is a production of Lemonada Media.
Our senior supervising producer is Kristin Lapour. And our Associate
(49:53):
producer is Issara Sives. Dope Labs is sound design, edited
and mixed by James par Robert. Lemonada Media's Vice President
of Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger. Executive producer from
iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norbe. Marketing lead is Alison Kantor.
Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex
(50:16):
sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Lab
is executive produced by us T T show Dia and
Kiah Watti.
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