Draft Season | NFL Combine Preview

John Schmeelk and Tony Pauline discuss the NFL Combine’s new format, talk about the strength of each position group, and take twitter questions from fans. 00:00 - New combine format 07:33 - Offensive position groups 24:22 - Defensive position groups 35:11 - Twitter questions

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Now fish are over. Welcome to another edition of Draft Season.
It is Draft Season, Tony Pauline, John schmoke with you.
By the time this airs, Tony, I will probably be
on flights to Indianapolis next week getting ready for the
NFL Combine. We'll talk about a couple of format changes

(00:23):
with the two by the way, and then we'll talk
about maybe some snubs, and we'll talk about by position.
You know, some guys that might shine. It's really important
for other guys that maybe you worry about. We'll get
through all that right here on draft season, leading up
to our combine. In our combine preview, Tony, how are
you man? Okay, I'm gonna survived my first mock draft.
I figured there'd be people outside my house with with

(00:45):
pitchforks and torches. That didn't happen, So I guess that's
a good set. Yeah. I showed up and nobody else
is there, so I went home. There you go. You know,
I have to say, we are recording this podcast on
the forty eighth anniversary of the release of Led Zeppelin's
Physical Graffiti. So this is a great day. Yes, clearly
the most important thing. So we must bring up at

(01:06):
the start of the podcast. All right, so let by
the way, we are recording this last Friday. You'll be
hearing this early next week. So if something happened over
the weekend and we don't talk about it, we're not idiots.
That's just because we already recorded it. Because, like I said,
we'll be flying on Monday, so we wanted to get
this in the bags. You guys can talk about it.
And also, by the way, we got some questions from
our great listeners and viewers and fans on Twitter, and

(01:29):
we will ask those to Tony at the end of
the program at time permitting. All right, Tony, let's start here.
Format changes. You know, they famously went to prime time
last year. The players hated it. Some guys didn't work out.
The guys that did were like, dude, we're tired, man.
We've been in medicals all day meetings and it's eight
o'clock and I gotta run a forty yard dash. It's

(01:50):
killing me. And now all of a sudden, the workouts
back to three o'clock in the afternoon most days. I
guess that was something that they kind of went back
and forth on a little bit. Huh yeah. I mean, obviously,
as I said, for a couple of years. Now, I mean,
the NFL is looking to commercialize, monetize the combine as
best they could. And what greater ready to do it
than have the quarterbacks throw at eight pm at night? Right,

(02:11):
I will tell you the big change for me is
the schedule in the sense that traditionally the offensive lineman
went first, then the tight ends, then the quarterbacks with
the receivers, the running backs, and then it was defensive
lineman inside linebackers, and the last day was always the
defensive backs. Now it's the last day is actually the

(02:32):
offense lineman. And it's kind of interesting. I was talking
to somebody about this. You know, back when they had
that old schedule, what would happen is they would have
a bunch of quarterbacks designated as practice quarterbacks. And the
practice quarterbacks would not I only participate in the quarterback workout,
but they would throw a date earlier to the tight ends,

(02:52):
and they would stick around on Mondays to throw to
or the fourth the third day to throw to the linebackers,
and the last day to throw the defensive backs. And
he said, what's the big deal. A lot of quarterbacks,
a lot of practice quarterbacks actually made money and helped
their draft stock because offensive coaches would stick around and
watch them throw to the defensive back. Tony just just historically,

(03:16):
Tony Romo was one of those guys back in the day.
Josh McCollen, Josh mccalln. I'll never forget being at the
workout when Josh McCollen was there and the guy by
Paul Hackett was sticking around to watch him even though
the rest of his group left two days earlier. Because
Josh McCollen the last day of the combine was throwing
sixty yard bombs down the field with speed in defensive

(03:37):
back workouts and basically hitting the mark. And you know
it's kind of obviously it's being done for commercialization and TV,
but you know it's not. It's getting further and further
away from the pure scouting event that many of us
knew it to be twenty years ago. That's just another example,
got it? Yeah, and I agree. And by the way,

(03:58):
just the people understand it's dvs and dbs first. So
corners in safety is they're going to be the first
day of interviews and workouts. Then you get to I believe,
linebackers and defensive linemen. Then wide receivers and quarterbacks will
work out on Saturday, and then Sunday workouts will be
offensive lineman and running backs, so people understand what the
schedule is. And of course we'll have all that coverage

(04:18):
right here on draft season. And of course if you
check it out Big Blue Kickoff Live, if you're a
Giants fan, Giants Subtle Podcast, make sure you guys go
check that out. Wolf coverage all week long from Radio
wrote to Combine, and Tony might appear on one of
those shows as well, so make sure you go check
that out. All right, So let's go to number two
before we start getting to a position by position here, Tony,
who isn't an indie that you raise your eyebrows, I'm like, man,

(04:41):
that guy, he should be there. What are they doing?
There's not a huge number of stubs. I mean, there's
no glaring stubs. None of the guys who are not
going to the combine are going to surprise and be
third round picks, fourth round picks. Now, usually what there's
like twenty to thirty guys every year that get drafted.
Borre non invited at the combine or left. Think a
little bit higher than that. I think it's more in

(05:03):
the forty range, but still, I mean, it's not a
situation where a guy's gonna be selected around three or
round four, you'll be like, Wow, a guy guy wasn't
invited to combine. How did he sneak up? You know,
people talk about Carl Brooks of Bowling Green. Carbrooks with
one of my favorites in the past three years. You know,
in order for Carbrooks to be invited, that means someone
else is not going to be invited. You're gonna kick

(05:23):
somebody off. The invitationists who you're kicking off. I mean
that was an interesting one. And by to only real quick,
I don't think we talked about him. Tell the people
about Carlbrooks real quick. Carbrooks is a quick, explosive defensive lineman.
He can play end in a four man line. He
can play inside in a form and in the three
man line and in the foreman line. He's very athletic.

(05:44):
Came into the season with very low grades from scouts,
even though he's been incredibly productive at Bowling Green. A
guy who's a gap penetrator could change the direction. Maybe
he plays a three technique type of style, although he
is more than a three technique type of lineman. I guess,
you know, it would have been nice to see him there.

(06:05):
I'm just not over the moon that it was a
major stub for a snub for the Combine. I thought
Kazmi or Alan of UCLA, especially after the way he
played the Shrine Game, I thought it was interesting that
he didn't get an invite. I think it's interesting he
didn't get an invite because what positioned Tony Well, That's
why I'm getting to you know, some scouts like him
at running back, some scouts like him at wide receiver.

(06:26):
He played both at the Shrine Game, and as we've
seen at the Combine, you know there were alternate position drills.
So I don't know whether they would have kept Kazmi
or Alan for two days to work out with the
running backs or the wide receivers. I know that Kazmi
or Alan is a terrific football player who can help
at the next level, and there's some sort of indecision,
if you will, or question as to where he's going

(06:47):
to be playing at the next level. I thought that
was a little bit interesting. I like Ryan Miller or
firm and the small school guy, a guy who's been
incredibly productive of the past three years. He played tight end,
but he only goes about six one and a half
two hundred and eight pounds runs and plays in the
low four or fives. If you ever watched Furman, he's
all of them a place catching the football. Was actually

(07:09):
great as a mid Day three choice coming into the
season and had a good season. You know, there were
some guys who weren't invited to the combine who had
high grades but kind of Phillip the Cliff last year.
Josh Van of South Carolina receivers one of them. I
thought Ryan Miller, especially coming from a small school and
a guy whose position is kind of up in the air,
it's not gonna be I like him as a receiver,
maybe as an h back. I was surprised that Ryan

(07:31):
Miller Ferman didn't get invitation. All right, those are some
good names there. Now let's talk about the guys that
did get invited to the combine, Tony, and you could
take these position groups anyway you want. Guys you're excited
about guys, you're worried about guys you have questions about,
just you know, things that you'll be keeping an eye on.
You want to start offensive defense. What do you want
to go first? Let's go offense. Let's start with the quarterbacks.
You know we've talked at nauseam about the measurements of

(07:53):
Bryce Yarms. I mean, that's gonna be front and center.
You know, obviously he's gonna be later in the week.
But how polsy you know, how big is he? And
you know the measurements. When they get on the stage
and they're measured, you know, it gives everybody a chance
to look at the body types and say, is this
guy gonna be able to add ten to fifteen pounds
onto his frame? The frame the frame is huge, yea.

(08:15):
Are we gonna be able to get him stouter if
he adds ten to fifteen pounds, is he gonna be
able to play or is he going to be just
like you know, ripped height with muscles and he can
be inflexible. That's huge for Bryce Young. We'll see the
numbers that we'll see Bryce Young on the stage. I
mean for a guy like Will Levis, a guy like
Anthony Richardson, even c J. Stroud, you know, if they throw,

(08:36):
this is critical. You have to remember for the quarterbacks,
the combine market is they're throwing to receivers that they've
never really thrown to in the past, and they're doing
it in a place that they never played in the past.
I mean, except for Aiden O'Connell, none of these guys
have played in Lucas Oil Stadium, So it's foreign surroundings
thrown to receivers they haven't thrown to. Now you're gonna

(08:57):
have big crowds there because in the past it was
just outs and coaches and NFL people. Now they left
hands in. Now they're letting the media in, so it's
it's getting a little bit larger and larger. So it's
a it's a big deal in foreign surroundings for these guys.
You know, Will Levis, Anthony Richardson, even CJ. Stroud. Can
they hit receivers in stride? Are they making receivers slow

(09:20):
up in routes, leave their feet to catch the pass
just backwards? You know, you want to see that sort
of tempo where you're leading receivers with the throws, which
I'm sure Bryce Young will do with these because you
can do it with anybody that guy. You know, the
big arm quarterbacks, the athletic quarterbacks, how are their passes?
You're not just looking for completions you're looking at especially

(09:41):
in shorts, in your underwear, shorts and teacher making it
easy for the receivers to catch the ball. Is the
ball there when the receivers are leaving their routes. Are
the receivers waiting for the ball to arrive to them.
So that's gonna be the interesting thing for the big
name quarterbacks where a lot of question marks the Will
Levis is Anthony Richardson and to a lesser EXTENTU. C. J. Stroud. Yeah, no,

(10:04):
I'm with you. I think that'll be interesting. Let's jump
to running backs here Tony and in a very crowded
running back group, I think this could be a little
bit of a situation where guys might be able to
separate themselves a little bit based on their forty times
and some of the agility drills where you know, teams
might be looking for guys a little bit more upside
and I think that's where they look at some of

(10:24):
these you know, physical traits and you know, maybe if
someone was in the same tier at the top around three,
maybe someone gets bumped up to the you know bottom
around two something like that. Yeah, I think it's a
big day for Ty J. Spears ty J Spears of
lane terrific season in twenty twenty two three days aboutstanding
practice at the senior ball as both catching the ball
and running the ball. Now we got to see is

(10:45):
he as fast for the stop watch as he looks
on the field, because we definitely know he's got great
play speed. Does that time match? Is that forty time
match the play speed? Are those shuttle times? Is that
three cone time as quick as his what work looks
on the field, Because if it is, you're basically seeing
everything come together for Taja Spears, which could make him

(11:07):
the third running back off the board, you know, at
the top of round two or in the middle of
round two, and people will start to dispel that while
he's just a situational wall carrier. I think the same
thing for Devin A Cane of Texas A and M,
you know, incredibly creative makes defenders miss looks a little
stouter on the inside than Taja Spears has it burst.

(11:28):
But how fast is he they told you for him?
Isn't it what he weighs in that pretty important? Too?
He was listed at like one eighty right in college
or something like that. Again, you know Taja Spears is
one eight is five eight, one hundred and ninety three pounds.
You want to see if a cane is in that
same sort of area, right, because he is a he
is more of a creative that third down back tight.
You know, here's the interesting thing. When we interview guys

(11:51):
at the Shrine game. We would ask they would ask.
We would ask him, you know, what they measured in at?
And then I'd ask him, is that you're playing weight?
You know, because these guys what they weigh in at
is not necessarily they're playing weight. We saw it with
Taji Spears, I think it was ninety three at the
Senior Bowl practice, and he played it that way. You know,
with a cane, if it comes in one ninety, is

(12:12):
that his actual playing weight? So you got to be
very careful about that little trick. You know. What happens
is these guys weigh in and they drink gallons and
gallons of water to get their weight up. And then
what was happening is by the time the workouts come, well,
obviously they've excreted all about water, and the scouts try

(12:32):
and get them back onto the scale before they work
out to see what they're true If there's a difference
or what their true workout weight is because so many
of these guys try to basically fill up on water
too if they can add some extra weight when they
get in for the official the official wears or the
initial waves, which is why, and then scouts try and
get them back on the scales. A lot of guys say, well,

(12:53):
I wait him once. I'm not getting back on the scale.
So yeah, you're right. Uh with a cane and the measurings.
You know you want tucker of sheerccuse fat. You know
he looks quick, he's got to burst, But what is
his true forty time? The Chris Rodriguez of Kentucky terrific
interior runner guy who picks up the tough yardage guy

(13:14):
doesn't look great. Laterally you'll be looking at his shuttle
times if he runs them, they'll be looking at his
three cone times. I mean, that's part of the issue
with waiting around all day. A lot of these guys,
by the time they do the forty into the position drills,
they're tired. They don't want to be doing the three
cone and the shuttle. You look at last year's list,
I mean the amount of guys at each position who

(13:36):
completed the full workout and did the shuttles and did
the three cone was like ten percent. Yeah, compared to
past years, yea, almost nobody was doing the agility drillscau
Those are like a ten o'clock at night and people
are like, yeah, no, I'm out on that not happening.
All right, let's jump to wide receiver here, Tony, and
in a year where there are no superstar wide receivers,
I'll say, you know, no Jamar Chases, you know, guys

(13:59):
like that un around. I don't even think there's any
Drake London's or Garrett Wilson's for example. I think these
numbers for these wide receivers are going to be huge,
Like they're gonna look at what Jordan Addison runs, Jack
Smith it's and jigbuzz a Flowers and that's really I
think it'll go a long way and their agility, Joe's
to the you know, the three cone in the short shuttle,
and how they might play out in that first round

(14:19):
order and maybe who might even you know, drop to
the second round potentially. Yeah, you gotta remember, the combine
is about expectations. You go to the combine and you
meet or beat expectations. Your dress stock is going to improve.
If you don't live up to expectations, it's gonna fall
the other way. I think of you know, and I stops.
You know, if if a company does better in their earnings,

(14:43):
then what the forecasters expect, their stop price golows up
up right. If they don't do as good as their earnings,
the stop price will go down. That's what the combine
is largely about. Besides these medicals and the interviews, which
is the most important part, It's about beating expectations. You know,
you mentioned Jordan at I've talked. I've talked to people
who have seen him in training. He's gonna come in

(15:03):
about six foot tall, one hundred and seventy five to
one hundred and eighty pounds. He's gonna run faster than expected,
but he's not going to be super fast, only one
seventy five humph for him. That's interesting. He's not gonna
be a low four three guy. But the thing with
Jordan Addison that you want to watch. You want to
watch the agilities if he runs him. You want to
watch the shuttle, and you want to watch the the

(15:26):
the the practice drills. You want to watch him run
routes because I'm told by people watch him in training,
his route running has been incredible. Somebody said, somebody said,
you know, we've been doing this for twenty years. He's
the best route runner we've seen. Wow. He quickly gets
eighty hollur routes, sinks his hips, stays low on exit,
catches the ball. So that's the thing with Jordan Addison,

(15:47):
I mean, obviously Quentin Johnston again, expect him to run fast,
expect him to jump really high. Watch the drill session.
You know, is he sinking his hips? Is he running
routes with good footwork? Is he is he staying on
in exit? And as you said, John, is he extending
his hands and catching the ball away from his frame?

(16:08):
Jay Flowers told us he's gonna run in the four
threes at the Shrine game when we interviewed him. Can
he do that? That's the one thing about day Flowers
great route runner. We know he's a tremendous gass catcher,
but is he a downfield threat. One guy I am
very excited to see is Cedric Tillman of Tennessee. Everyone
talks about Jalen Hyatt, Remember Cedric Tillman was the number

(16:29):
one receiver at Tennessee coming in the season, got hurt.
When you watch the film on Cedric Kilman, it's it's wow.
I mean not only the way he catches the past,
his route, running, his blocking. He plays the receiver position
like a linebacker. Even when the play is away from him.
He is attacking the defensive back off the line of

(16:50):
scrimmage to intimidate him. Watch what he did to Keylee
Ringo against Georgia this year. Watch what he did what
he Cedric Tillman did to Camp Smith. I'm told you're
probably gonna get with Tillman. He's gonna run faster than expected,
which means he could get into the four threes. I'm
told a vertical jump close to forty inches, if not
over forty inches. I'm told I'm told a broad jump

(17:12):
of over eleven feet. Those numbers all of a sudden
make Cedric Tillman. You know in that in the top
of that second tier of receivers with Kashaw, Booty, Josh Downs,
maybe Zay Flowers. If he falls out of round one,
what do you think Smith and Jacoba is gonna run
Tony that's another guy that I'm fascinated to see coming
off that hamstring. If if I was a betting a

(17:34):
man right now, I'm gonna say four four eight. Let's
see how close I am. Four for eight and four
for eight will be fine. That would be fine. I
tell you this. When his pro day comes in the
middle of the towards the on the March, I think
the Ohio State Pro Day is March twenty first, he'll
probably run in the four threes. I've reported from the

(17:54):
Senior Bowl that he was just getting to one hundred percent.
He was just getting back into training. So the fact
is he's probably had about a month of training coming
off that third third degree hamstring issue, which was a
major issue, to get back into something, you know, get
back into training shape if you will. So I think

(18:14):
I'm looking at the smithne Jimber at about four or
four eight right now. We'll see how close I am.
But I think it's gonna be much faster a pro day.
It's always faster a pro day. But I I think
with Smith ni Jibber, it's a legitimate excuse, if you will,
because he's gonna be two plus months from being one
hundred percent from the return of the hamstring. I think
one of the more interesting stories is Rashie Rice. I

(18:37):
don't think Rashie Rice is gonna run as fast as
people think. I think he will be in the four fives.
I gotta be honest with Tony. I think he's gonna
be like a four or five four type guy. And
you know, the part we were talking about the forties
and the workouts. The most important part of the combine,
why the combine was really started, was for the medicals
and then the interviews told there are some medical issues

(18:59):
with a with a foot injury, a sessamoid injury. Rashi
Rice rolso s up the field issues that he's gonna
be questioned about. So I think it's gonna be a
situation with Rashi Rice the way I think Cedric Kilman,
it's gonna really rise up boards. I think with Rashi Rice,
it's gonna be the opposite. You're gonna see Rashi Rice
really take a drop from the combine. Moving forward to
draft day, all right, let's go to tight ends, Tony.

(19:20):
It's really become a traits position over the years. I mean,
you look at Jilanni Woods last year. His production of
Virginia was you know, minimal, But then he shows up
at the combine, he's six seven, has an airplane size wingspan.
Runs gosh, he was he even like sub four or
five in the forty I think right, he ran a
ridiculous forty yard dash at like two hundred and seventy pounds.
You know, I imagine how these tight ends test and forgot,

(19:42):
like Musgrave, how the medicals look could be quite frank.
Are gonna go a long way to figure out which
guy goes first and how many go in the first round? Yeah? Absolutely,
You know you start with Michael Mayer. You know how
fast is Michael Mayer gonna be? Is he gonna run
under forty eight? You know, if Michael Mayer runs a
seven four, that's a great time. And we're in the
day and age where tight ends are, you know, consistently

(20:05):
running in the four fives, low four sixes. Michael Merritt,
you know, four seven five. Darnell Washington of Georgia, who
was massive, who you know I had reported when he
showed up for combine training two days after that National
championship game, he was two hundred and eighty pounds. They're
hoping you get him down to two sixty five at
two sixty five. You know, does Darnell Washington break a

(20:27):
four eight five? You know in the forty he doesn't
look like he's fast in the four eighty five on film.
Good player, tremendous blocker, good pass catcher, a few yards
off the line, scrimmage. But you know a lot of
people think it's thinking of Darnell Washington is a top
forty five pick. I don't see how you do it
with a guy that big, who can't run under four
right five. We'll see what he does. Very interested to

(20:48):
see what tough fast Tucker Kraft runs. I mean, as
I said, Tucker Kraft places the time end position like
he's a receiver. We'll see if that speed on film, Matt,
if the forty time matches the speed that we on film.
Sam Laporter another guy who I absolutely love. Going to
be interested to see how fast he runs. You get
later on down the line. Your guy Brydon willis very quick,

(21:10):
very explosive. I'm not the biggest guy in the world,
but still, you know you want to see some speed
from him. A guy who I like, who we've talked
about before, Leonard Taylor of Cincinnati, very athletic, kind of
played second fiddle to Josh Wiley at Cincinnati two years ago,
and then this year was in a situation where the
quarterback liked to throw the ball at thirty yards down field,
didn't use the tight ends. But he's an athletic guy

(21:31):
who I think could help himself with with some good
testing numbers. And although Dalton Kinkaid in there too, right
for a guy that is a pass catcher more than
anything else, if he puts in a poor forty time,
that could sink him. He has he has to run
well if he wants to vault himself into that late
first round conversation. If in fact he runs at all,

(21:52):
don't point forget what Jim Nagie told us when we
did the Senior Bowl preview with him. Jim Nagie said,
Dalton Kinkaid may not even work out at any time
before the before the draft because of his injury. So
you know, it'll be interesting to see if in fact
he does work out at the comment, what does he
do if he does anything at all? All? Right, let's
go to offensive line or measurement wise. We want to

(22:13):
see what Scronski's arm length comes in that I know
that's kind of a big deal for what teams might
consider him in terms of position. Although version from Syracuse
another guy you know, see a guard or a tackle.
You know, we'll see what the armline comes in. Cody
Mock another guy. Arm length will be important. So those
are the measurements out throughout there, Tony, What other stuff
are you keeping an eye in terms of the offensive linemon?

(22:33):
Luke Whippler one of my favorites, so I've I've talked
about it ad nauseum on this show. What are his size?
What are his numbers? He's known as his zone blocking lineman,
zone blocking lineman. You know you want to see some athleticism.
You want to see a guy who you know can
vertical jump close to thirty inches. You want to see
a guy who's gonna run three cone in the high

(22:54):
fort in the high seven sevens. You know you don't
want to see him eight five three gone time from
a guy who's his own blockers. So you want to
see those numbers from from from Luke Whippler, you know,
Steve Avilla, the big guy from TCU. You want to again,
you want to see the agilia juds. You want to
see the flexibility. You want to see during the drills
with Steve a Villa even you could say Cyrus Torrance,

(23:17):
how are they moving around the field. Are they moving
around the field with ease? Are they smooth or are
they all over the place? Are they out of whacking
at bounce when they got to change direction? You don't
want to see the ladder the former. It is a
positive thing, you know, Cody Mack. Want to see him
during those the pass rush drills. You know, how is
his footwork Jalen Duncan, I mean Jalen Duncan, as we

(23:40):
saw it was terrific at the senior ball left tackle,
struggled at right tackle. But he's a very athletic guy
on film. Now he's gonna have to show those athletic numbers,
because what you don't want is a guy like Jalen
Duncan who's a little bit undersized two ninety eight pounds,
looks very athletic on film, and then goes and runs
a five two five in the forty. I mean, the
forty doesn't mean too much except it's a test of athleticism.

(24:03):
You don't want to see him jump twenty seven inches
in the vertical jump. You want to see him basically
kind of live up to those that athleticism that he
shows on film, because it's gonna be much easier to
coach him at the next level as opposed to a
guy who we looked athletic on film but real life
really isn't a good athlete. All right, let's go to
defense here, Tony, stay upfront. Obviously, I think Jalen Carter

(24:27):
and Will Anderson have pretty high thresholds. I think both
of us believe they'll meet them. But I think what
happens after those two guys who are likely the first
two defensive players off the board. Though I've heard some
people talk about Tyree Wilson there. I think that's a
little crazy. But I think how that second group of
defensive lineman and edge players kind of start to fall
off the board will have a lot to do with
how they do in these drills, especially that three cone drill,

(24:50):
which has turned out to be a pretty predictive drill
when it comes to defensive ends and pass rushers. You
know you have asked last show about Kalijah Canty in
the first round. I don't think he's not gonna be
a first round but I'm told he has he has
a he's coming off a labram injury on his shoulder.
I'm told Cancy wants to run the forty at the combine,

(25:10):
and if he runs, he could run, he could get
under four right in the forties. I think that will
help him a little bit. It's not gonna push him
in the first round. But you know, if the guy's
got a labyri injury and he is excuse expression helpman,
I run in the forty, and he runs the forty,
he runs a good time, that that's gonna be something
good for him. Keyon White very athletic guy, two hundred
and eighty pounds out of Georgia Tech, had a solid

(25:30):
senior year, had a couple of good days of practice.
You know, he's on the cusp of being a first
round pick. If he comes into two hundred and eighty
pounds and he's able to run the four sevens, he's
able to have a good vertical jump. A good vertical
jump for a guy like key On White is anything
over thirty inches, you know, then maybe teams will say, hey, hey, hey, listen,
six four and a half, two hundred and eighty pounds,
these athletic numbers, we're really going to coach the best

(25:52):
out of him. So that's something to watch. Mazzie Smith.
I mean the first show we did this season, we
had Bruce Feldman on talking about Massie Smith, who was
number one on his freak list. I mean, what did
he say under seven seconds in the three conment? I mean,
could you imagine that most defensive backs, most safeties hope
to go to the combine and run under seven seconds?

(26:13):
If you get magic he Smith there are three hundred
twenty pounds or whatever he's gonna weigh to run the
three cone under seven seconds. Wow, I mean that would
be off the charts. That's gonna be fun to watch.
Will McDonald. You know, does Will McDonald Does he do
any work with the linebackers? That's what I want to see.
We know he's athletic. I would expect a good forty
time in the four sixes, But does Will McDonald go

(26:33):
through position drills where he's asked to drop off the
line in coverage, has to move laterally? And how does
he look when he does? As you know, you got
a lot of underclassman Mike Morris of Michigan, Garvon Dexter
of Florida, Colby Wooden of Auburn. Remember with these underclassmen,
Lucas van Ness of Iowa, these underclassmen, there were no
true measurables on these underclass Most of the seniors who

(26:56):
were juniors in two thousan twenty one went through junior
what's called timing day now it's now junior measurement day
where the scouts will go in height, weight, hand arm,
maybe give him a wonder lick test. Very few of
them run the forty anymore, but they have a good
idea how much these guys. What did these guys true
height and weight are? You have no idea about that

(27:18):
with the underclassmen. So it's gonna be interesting to see
guys like Mike Morris, what are their measurements and how
did they test? Absolutely I'm with you on that. I
think it'll be very interesting to see how some of
these guys do in the testing. All right, Tony, let's
move to the the linebacker or anybody there that you're really
keeping your eye on. And if you want to include
some edge guys here, you can. But I was thinking
more kind of those off ball guys. I know I've

(27:39):
talked to some people. They think Trenton Simpson's gonna have
an absolutely unbelievable combine with his speed, and he should
you know. But the thing with Trent and Simpson is
how big is he? Is he two hundred pounds? Is
he too twenty two? I would you know? I could
see Trent and Simpson running the four or fives, you know,
verting thirty six inches and having great three tone and
great shuttles. But how big is he? And are you

(28:01):
going to use him? Is he a traditional weak side
linebacker and a four to three? Is he an inside guy?
What type of scheme versatility? I have an affection towards
Jack Campbell. I mean I think Jack Campbell is a
significantly underrated. People talk about his speed, his forty let's see.
I mean, Jack Campbell's got to run relatively fast and
he's got to do well in the shows. The tape

(28:22):
is there for Jack Campbell? Do you ever watch him?
I mean, he's a forceful glitzer, He's a terrific run defender,
he gets depth on his pass drops, he plays well
in coverage. The athletic number has got to be there
to say, hey, yeah, this guy's the real deal. Same
thing with Drew Sanders. I mean, Drew Sanders has talked
about in a lot of circles. Is a potential first
round pick. I don't see it with Drew Sanders. Let's

(28:43):
see what his forty time is. Let's see what his
shuttle times are. Let's see how he does in position
Joll's when he's asked to drop twenty five thirty yards
back off the line of scrimmage and make plays when
the balls in the air. Is he loosing the hips?
Can he transition? Is he fluid moving about the field
you know later on down the line. Henry Totoa, you know,
what are his measurements? He is a lot of people

(29:04):
question his athleticism. I don't agree with that because he
looks fast on film. He's looked fast on film the
past couple of years. But how big is he? You know,
Isaiah Fowski, is he gonna be? Is he just an
edge rusher or is he a guy that can use
off in space, because as we talked about, he didn't
look that great as an edge rusher at the senior ball.
You know, he was getting stemmied at the point of attack.
So a guy like Isaiah Folsky has got to show

(29:26):
that at least he has the potential to be used
off the line of scrimmage in space on zone blitz
type situations Byron Young another guy from tennis to see,
highly rated, very good making plays up the field, but
in position drills, Canny drop off the line and make
plays when the balls in the air. Yeah. Look, I
think those are all really good names. I'm gonna sprinkle
in a fan question here, Tony, just because we're online backers.

(29:48):
So a fan wants to all about Damaro overshone I
believe out of Texas. Correct, what's your thoughts on on
what he might do with the combine and how he
thinks he's gonna fit in the NFL. I think me
Shan is one of those guys where he's not going
to be a great tester, but he's an explosive football player,
and we've seen a lot of that come out of
Texas recently. You know, the linebackers who run in the

(30:10):
high four six his low war sevens. They're not Olympian
type athletes, but they just play, you know, like their
hairs on fire. They're violent players. They're very aggressive, nasty players.
I like over Sean. I think also has some skiing versatility.
I don't think you have to pigeonhole him as a
you know, four three strong side linebacker or a middle linebacker.

(30:32):
I think he's got versatility to play a lot of
different positions. I have him as a third round pick.
I'm not expecting anything great from Obashan at the combine.
I think it's one of those guys where if he's
got decent numbers, you've got to look at the tape,
and the tape is very explosive on the bantering Obashan,
All right, let's go to the cornerback position here, Tony.

(30:53):
Obviously the forty yard dash can be overrated. Sometimes it
ain't overrated for cornerbacks team's care. You gotta run with
wide receivers. And in your mock that we did in
our last episode, go check it out, folks, if you
haven't looked at it yet, and listen to the episode,
you had six cornerbacks go in the first round of
that mock draft. I got to imagine these forty times
are gonna go a long way towards determining what order

(31:15):
those guys are gonna fall in. And I think no
forty time is more important than that of Devin Weatherston
because Devin Weatherspoon, as I said, he's probably the most
polished cornerback in this year's draft. He's got these the
most skilled guy, he's got outstanding ball skills, but there's
questions of concerns about his deep speed. I mean, teams
estimate him to be a four five five guy. If

(31:36):
he's a four or five five guy, he's probably a
first round pick, but he's in the latter half of
the first round. He's not, you know, an early portion
first round pick. If he gets under four or five
or he runs into four force, that's gonna alleviate some
of the concerns about his next level speed. You know,
the fact that he's not gonna be trailing receivers two
went three yards down the line of script down the
field because he can't stay with him step for step.

(31:58):
So you want to see Devin Witherspoons forty times. You know,
it's you look at the the cornerback class and all
the top guys, whether it be Joey Porter, whether it
be Cam Smith, Christians Als, DJ Turner, Deontay Banks, Eli Ricks,
they're all under classmen. So we're gonna get a lot
of information on these guys. That's our scouts are that
they didn't have beforehand. Keep an eye on Deontay Banks.

(32:21):
Deontay Banks, I'm here, I'm told is running in the
low four threes, could get under four three, could run
in the high four twos. Don't know that's gonna happen,
especially for a guy that's you know, over six foot
the tolly you are the tougher. It is because that
starter is so difficult, the way they have you all
scrunched up in that position. But the fact is is
Deontay Banks looks best on film. He is a good

(32:44):
cornerback on film. And if all of a sudden, those
testing times, you know, low four threes in the forty
a vertical jump that comes close to, if not higher,
the forty inches, those those testing times mass the athleticism
that we see on the field. You watch the Deante
Banks dress stock take off. I think I had him
twenty four twenty five for the Jacksonville Jaguars. Emmanuel Forbes,

(33:08):
A lot of people love Emmanuel Forbes. The concern about
Immanuel Forbes is sort of the concern about Jordan Addison.
He's a twelfth in guy who may not hold up
at the next level. It's more of a concern for
a cornerback than it is a receiver who can run
underneath routes. How tall is Immanuel Forbes? How you know?
How big is he? How much does he weigh? How
much does he run? And how does he look? You

(33:29):
know in the position drills. If he's one hundred and
ninety pounds and people are like, oh okay, five one
nine pounds, but he looks stiff in the position drills
and he's stiff in the three color in the show,
that's not a good sign. That's not gonna help him.
So you got to keep an eye on the height
and weight the measurements for for Forbes. I think Sidney

(33:50):
Brown's gonna be interesting now to watch. I mean, great
senior see great two s last two years at the
Illinois tremendous Senior Bowl. How fast is he? I mean
if Sydney Round comes in two hundred and thirteen pounds
and runs into four fours after the Senior Bowl he
had Granted, I'm talking about a safety now, but I
apologize that safety who plays like a cornerback. Wow. I mean,

(34:11):
Brown's just gonna keep moving up draft boards. Any other
safeties want to throw on their tone, you know, I'm
very excited to see what Brian Branch does I have
Brian Branch very highly rated. I expect a real good
workout for him. He looks very athletic on film, you know,
later on down the line. As far as safeties are concerning,
let me look at my board here real quick. Him

(34:32):
a Jordan Battle of Alabama, who's a real good safety.
Not even more of a box safety, more of a
downhill safety. But you want to see some decent times
from him. Yeah, Brandon Joseph forgotten man. I mean a
couple of years ago when he was at Northwestern, people
thought he was a first round pick. Moved to note
your dame had some moments. Wasn't a consistent force, you know,
but a real good player. Corey Trice out of Purdue.

(34:54):
We've spoken about him. Two hundred and fifteen pounds. Is
he a corner? Is he a safety? I know this,
He's a darned good football player, A real good football player.
If he could run in in the war five to
two fifteen pounds. I think that Corey Trice really cements
himself as a late day two pick. All right, Tony,
I want to answer some questions here. Let's try it.

(35:14):
All right, Let's say we got Um, we have not
got over these with Tony, so I'm throwing these at
him cold folks. So this is always fun. At Ny
Fan nineteen eighty seven, Alex Earth, he was wondering about
Justin Shorter, penn state wide receiver went to Florida. Was
a big prospect that of high school local kid from
the area, Tony, what do you know about him? And
is he at the combine and what are the expectations

(35:35):
he is at the combine. I spoke with somebody yesterday
about him, actually him as well as the Liberty receiver.
You know. I mean he's a bigger guy, Justin Shorter.
Let me pull him up here real quick, six three
and a half twenty five pounds. So he's a bigger
receiver who shows some skills as a vertical white out
on film. How did decent three days of practice at

(35:59):
the Shrine Game? You know, I think with Shorter you're
probably looking if he can get in the low five
four fives. I mean that that's a victory for him.
Want to see if he's as big at the combine
as he was at the Shrine Game. You know, two
twenty five pounds. What do you do with a guy
like that. I mean, you know, twenty years ago, he's
your ultimate possession receiver, you know reg zone threat? Is

(36:20):
he an h back? Is he receiver? Do you put
ten pounds on him and turn him into a moved
height end? So it'll be interesting with shorter. He is
relatively athletic, although I don't think you're gonna see any
up the charts numbers. All right, Another question, This one
comes in from let's say, Nemesis Escotio. I'm not even

(36:41):
gonna try to do the full one. Here. Is Carrington
Valentine going to be drafted earlier than projected a quarterback
out of Kentucky Tony because he's a good press corner
and your thoughts on him and him heading into the combine, Well,
I guess the first thing is, you know you got
to define him earlier than expected. Where does he expect that?
To the question? You have to? I mean, right now,

(37:01):
I have Valentine as a fifth round choice. He's a taller,
skinny guy. You know, he says press coverage. He's very aggressive.
I don't know I was gonna hang hold up and
press coverage because he looks like a thinner guy. Definitely,
he's got the solid ball skills. But again, a guy
like that and underclassman corner is gonna have to run
relatively well, and he's gonna have to test well. He's
gonna have to show that athleticism. The worst thing you

(37:23):
can do as an underclassman cornerback, especially or a speed position,
is you know, go to the combine and lay a
goose egge because you know you may be able to
rebound from your pro day at your pro day. But still,
I mean, Carrington's gonna have to run relatively well in
the four fours. You know, you want to see a
decent vertical jump and you want to see how he

(37:44):
does in the position. Joels, I do like Valentine off
the film. I think he's got some upside, just doesn't
have a big body of work. At Kyle vert fifty three,
How far is the drop off Tony in this class? Like,
at what point do you get to a spot in
the strap where you stand them and then you start
struggling finding guys? Is it deep in the in the

(38:04):
you know, day two early, Day three? Is it shallower
at the top? How would you just kind of define
kind of where the tears are in this class? Well,
I guess if he's talking overall, I think when you
are looking at your after your top ten or eleven,
there's a bit of a drop off, you know. I
think when you get into the late you know, most

(38:26):
of your late first rounders are gonna let's put it
this way, there were only right now, there are only
nineteen guys on my board with solid first round grades.
So when you get into that second round, the late
bottom part of third, bottom part of round one, the
bottom third of round one, I mean, most of those
guys are first rounders that also have second round grades

(38:47):
because they're they're not that outstanding there. I've got a
lot of guys with second round grades, so you're gonna
get good depth in the second round at a bunch
of different positions. Same thing with the third round. Third
round looks really deep looking at my board here third round,
I've got one hundred and nine guys with first, second,
or third round grades, which probably means I've got about

(39:08):
thirty five thirty six guys with third round grades on
my board, considering I've only had nineteen guys with solid
first round grades. All right, this one, let me say
let me say this, let me say this also, and
we talked about this with Jim Maggie a little bit.
Remember this year's draft is really thinned out because of
so many seniors who decided to go back for a

(39:30):
second senior season. And we talked about the quarterback position,
Jane Daniels, Bone Nicks, all these guys that are going back.
The hopes are next year the draft can be loaded
if the senior guys who are seniors next year enter
the draft rather than going back for a second senior season.
And then you have all these other players who went

(39:51):
back for a second senior season in the twenty twenty
four draft. What it means is you're gonna get second
round talent in the third round. You're gonna get third
round on talent the in day three in the draft.
That's not the situation this ship because so many players
went back. All right, let's go to Peter Maller. He
wants to know what your thoughts are on on bj

(40:11):
Ojilari seems to have great intangibles. Is he more of
an edge rusher or an outside linebacker? Could he transition
to off ball or do you see him as more
of a pure pass rusher. Well, first thing is pure
pass rusher is the priority in the NFL. Okay, you're
you're not gonna ask a guy to play off the
ball if he can rush the passer, because that's the
greater priority. Bj Ojilari can rush the passer. He's an

(40:34):
exceptional pass rusher. He's a very athletic guy. So do
I think he can be an off the ball linebacker
on occasion if you're gonna run his own blitz. If
you're gonna basically mix something up where you run a
blitz on the inside and you want Ojilari to drop
off the line and stay with the tight end because
you're you know, you're running a blitz on the upside
on the inside and there's no linebacker to cover that

(40:55):
tight end. I think he can do it. Can he
do it on an every down basis? I don't know
that i'd want him to do it, because you're gonna
take him out of the position of rushing the passer
where he's so good, and that's such a higher priority
when you play on Sunday football, as a higher priority
on Saturday football as well. All Right, Frank Buffone wants
to know he loves Zay Flowers thinks he can play

(41:17):
inside and outside, not the biggest, but a playmaker. So
his question for you, why is he not the best
receiver in this class? Because they are better receivers. I mean,
and Zay Flowers, you know, has done very well and
he did a great job. But Boston College last year
for Boston College offense that was in turmoil, if you will,

(41:39):
had poor quarterback play and he was the constant force.
Why is he ninember one, five ft nine, one hundred
eighty two pounds. Let's see how fast he runs. I mean,
he doesn't have Jlett high type of speed. He's not
six ft twall like Jordan Addison. He doesn't have the
off the charts measurable like Quentin Johnson. You know Smith

(42:02):
Smith Jibe is probably gonna come in a shade under
six foot one, a shade under two hundred pounds, and
his film from two thousand and twenty one is outstanding.
So when when you look at Flowers, he is a
good receiver, but it is easy to poke holes in
different areas of his game. Regardless of whether he's the

(42:22):
first receiver selected or he's the fifth or sixth receiver selected.
You putting him on the R I agree with the
with the guy who with the gentleman who asked the question.
You know, you can put him in a variety of
schemes and he'll be successful at the next level. Remember,
the draft isn't the end, it's just the beginning. So
what day Flowers is the second as a second round
pick doesn't mean he's not going to be a real

(42:43):
good NFL player. A couple of here. Tony Bill Kane
wants to know what round will you find the best
value for wide receivers in this year's draft? A good question.
I like the second round. You know, let's let's hypothetically
Kashawn Booty falls into the second round. Josh Downs of
North Carolina love that you mentioned Cedric Kilman Tennessee, Jaden

(43:06):
Reid of Michigan State. Nate tank Dell is moving up
draft boards could end up in the second round, and
then you look at them. You know you've got Cedric Kilman.
It's gonna be about two hundred twelve two hundred fifteen pounds,
a stouter underneath intermediate receiver who I'm told is going
to run faster than expected. You got. If A Flowers
balls in the second round, you've got a guy who

(43:27):
runs great pass routes. Tank del Goes in the second round.
You got a speedster who can score from any point
on the field, whenever the balls in his field. He's
quick off the line of scrimas, he runs great routes.
You give him a little bit of space, he's gone.
You've got Jaden Reid, a guy who's fast, a guy
who runs really good routes, and a guy who can
also double as a return specialist. You've got a mishmash

(43:48):
of different types of receivers who I think could be
quality number two receivers and maybe even developed into number
one receivers. So I like, I mean, there's there's good depth,
say in day three, the latter part of day three,
but you're looking at more number four, number five receivers
at the next level. I think he can come out
of round two with a real good, productive receiver, guy

(44:10):
who could probably produce as a rookie. All Right, we
got one more general question. Then they got two giants
specific ones, Tony that I'll answer, and I'd like to
get your take on it. Correct me where you think
I'm going in the wrong direction there. But first we
got fourge in nineteen fifty three. What's the ceiling of Washington,
the big tight end at a Georgia. Is he a
first round talent? No? No, I mean no. I just

(44:32):
again go back to what I talked about in the
tight end preview. I doubt he gets under four rightness
in the forty. I mean, and you watch the film.
He's a big, plotting tight end. I like him as
a number two tight end. I don't know how or
why you would draft the guy like that in the
first round. He's a real good player, but he's got limitations.

(44:52):
As we talked about, he's an offensive size sized tight end.
I mean, he's got the wingspan, everything else of an
offensive line, but he plays the time position and he
doesn't very good. But you're looking at a guy who,
in my opinion, is a number two. You're not gonna
you're not gonna ask him to catch the ball more
than ten yards off the line scrimmage because you really
can't get down field. He's a dominant blocker. I mean,

(45:13):
maybe you throw him the jump ball in the end zone.
He comes away with it because he's so much tall.
He's got that. He's gonna have a great wingspan. But
you know, as far as measurable as a concern as
far as what teams want, He's not the guy that's
gonna scrint down field twenty five thirty yards and create
the big plays, you know, or as a threat to
create the big plays every time they line up at

(45:34):
the line of scrimmage. All right, now, two giant questions Tony. First,
one from Rob Ford wants to know if Cavon, tibbott
On Evan Neil were in this year's draft class or
they drafted a higher or lower than in twenty twenty two.
They went five and seven last year. If my memory
serves me correctly, I believe they did. For me. I
think Tibodeau would probably be after Carter and Anderson in

(45:55):
this class. He probably the next defensive player off the board.
And I think Neil is probably probably a little bit
above Paris Johnson. I would think I have not done
a ton of work on Johnson yet, Tony, your thoughts
on that. I think Neil would be at least five
or six slots, if not more higher than Johnson, and
then Johnson has on him. The reason Johnson's going to

(46:15):
uh be drafted hi because he's a left tackle, and
people didn't know that Evan Neil was gonna be able
to play a left tackle on Sunday, So the left
tackle position is a prior hardy. I mean, you know,
with Fibidoux, if he was at five last year, he
probably would have been he probably would have been great. Well,
first of all, Fibidoux was number one on my board
last year. Okay, he was not my highest rated player.

(46:36):
So looking at my board this year, I probably would
have Jalen Carter grade to hire. I'd have will Innison
great to hire. Then Thibodeaux would have fit in. So
Fibbidoux probably would have been my third raded player, higher
than Miles Murphy, higher than Brian Breezy, higher than Brian
brownch higher than Tyree Wilson. So I think you know
he's asking where would he have been drafted? Tough to say.

(46:58):
I will say that Thibideaux would have been rated, you know,
lower on my board, only because we have two exceptional
defensive talents at the top issues board. Yeah, I mean,
I think it's possible that after those top two guys
Carter and Anderson, then Kneel and Thibodaul might be the
next two guys gone in this year's draft class. I
don't think that's that's out of the question if you
take the quarterbacks out of the equation obviously, all right,

(47:19):
final question, quarterback. But yeah, even the quarterbacks. I mean,
the quarterbacks are going to be selected because they're quarterbacks,
not because they are that highly rated on draft boards exactly.
That's why I kind of pushed them aside. All right,
final question, Martin Jennaro wants to know, John, should the
Giants take a tight end in the first round or
second round to compliment Daniel Bellinger. You know, it's interesting,

(47:40):
and I think you don't know exactly what type of
offense they want to run. My feeling is that they
want to be an eleven personnel team, which in that case,
do you pick a second tight end if you're not
going to be in twelve? A lot? And then I
think you want to pick a guy that compliments Bellinger,
who's a good run blocker, can catch a little bit too,
So then you're probably looking for more of that move
or receiving tight end, maybe that Dalton and Ka type,

(48:01):
in which case I think he's probably more of that,
you know, early second round type of guy. So no,
I don't think it's out of the question, especially if
you know you that Jordan Addison or Smith and Jigma
and you know Quentin Johnston aren't there when the Giants pick.
When they do, which I think is a possibility. I
just think this coaching staff Tony with cop gin Day,

(48:21):
but where they come from in Kansas City and Buffalo,
I think they want to run eleven personnel. And when
that's the case, I don't know if you want to
spend a lot of draft capital on a second tight
end after Bellinger had a real promising rookie year. Even
though I love the tight ends in this class, and
I know you do too, I think it. You know,
if a Musgrave is there, it's going to be very
enticing because Musgrave can do a Bellinger can't do. Right,

(48:41):
you know, he can do a Kelsey can do. You
know what Buffalo wanted to do get down the field
on a consistent basis as a big play at the
three at the tight end position. I happen to like
Tuck the craft funny. I mean, even if you go
later on in the draft Breton Strange. I have him
as a fourth round pick, a little and undeveloped from
Penn State, but he has that sort of moved tight

(49:04):
end style of play. He's not a guy you're gonna
put on the line of scrimmages, a blocker you're gonna
send him down the field. Josh Wiley, if he ever
gets his game back on track, I mean a twenty
twenty one looked like a terrific downfield threat. We talked
about Elijah Higgins from Stanford. I mean, Jim came on
the show, Jim Nage him on the show and said, no,
he was a gonna be a wide receiver, and then

(49:24):
you talked to him and Elijah Higgins said, yeah, a
lot of teams are talking to me about being a
you know, a move tight end two hundred and thirty
two pounds and the way he plays. Why not. Granted,
Higgins is the work in progress. You're gonna have to,
you know, develop him at the position. But if you
don't need him to come in and make an immediate impact,
if he's there for you're in the fourth, fifth round,

(49:44):
you take him and you kind of spoon feed him
into the into the offense, into the play, onto the
field as he learns that position. So I think it
would be enticing around one, but I think they'll have
options later on day two, especially Day three, to get
a guy that they can slowly bring around and be
that sort of downfield threat at the tight end position.

(50:07):
Tony enjoyed the shrimp cocktail out Indianapolis. My friend, I'm
actually a Webber Grill fan. I like what I like
going from the barbecue at Webber Grill. I'm not a
big Saint Alimost guy. I have not been to Webber
gribifore off to make sure I had out there this year.
There you go, absolutely all right for Tony Poli and
I'm John Schmilk. This is draft season. Thanks for being
with us, and we'll catch up with you from Indie
next week