The Sisterhood of the Travelling Drams

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chelsey (00:01):
Hello everybody and welcome back to Durram.
Find The Podcast where we talkall things with me.

Pam (00:13):
I'm Chelsea And I'm Pamela.
In this episode.
we're going to chat about womenin the industry, some of the
challenges that they've facedand how they overcome them.
We'll chat about some of ourown experiences and I think
you'll agree there's some prettyfierce energy coming from the
females and the West Cassin.
Let's do this.

Chelsey (00:42):
Let's give it to the chit chat here.
Chitty chat, chit chat.
Okay, oh, pamela Hi.

Pam (00:54):
Hey Chelsea, do you remember me?
I know it's been a while.
I'm so happy we're back.
We're back.

Chelsey (01:01):
It's good to be back.
We were on a journey.
We've been doing lots of things.
We haven't been recording,though, unfortunately.

Pam (01:07):
Sorry.

Chelsey (01:07):
Well, it's no sorry, don't you sorry me.
I apologize, though, to thelisteners.
No, it's you.
Oh, i thought you wereapologizing to me.
I'm just dying to blame here.

Pam (01:18):
Hey, not called completely.

Chelsey (01:22):
I didn't invite that accusational tone.

Pam (01:25):
Just kidding.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I do haveone question for you.
What do you want now?
Do you even like whiskey?

Chelsey (01:37):
What do you mean, Pam?
That triggers me.
But you know what?
That is a great intro, a funnylittle intro to what we're
talking about today, isn't it?

Pam (01:48):
Well, it's been a while since we chatted about our
origin story and why we evenstarted recording the first
place, so I thought it'd bequite nice for us to you know
talk about, as women and whiskey, what we experienced and what's
changed since we started thepodcast three years ago I think
it was great.

Chelsey (02:05):
Yeah, i think we have a different lens to view things
through after three years.
Well, i mean, this is acompletely different side of the
whiskey industry too that we'vebeen, you know, diving into.
you know it's not just servingthe drinks, we're really kind of
meeting the people that arerunning it, the ins and outs.

(02:26):
So, yeah, i think we have a lotmore to say And you know, and
the one thing I've alwaysexpressed to you, pam I know I
talk about this often is like Idon't want to come across, like
I don't want to be like we'reany kind of victim mentality at
the end of the day, right, likeI don't want that to be the main
takeaway.
It's like, oh, women, oh no,but I just wanted to like

(02:48):
highlight the amazing women thatare in this industry, give them
a platform, give them a voiceand celebrate them.
you know, rather than beconsidered like I just I don't
know.

Pam (03:02):
No, no, i understand That is a true fair point, but at the
same time, it's still importantto highlight some things that
are happening.
Oh 100% women feeluncomfortable or whatever.
So there's a there's a balanceto be had.

Chelsey (03:14):
Yeah, 100%, yeah, 100%.
So I just I thought I could behonest with you there.
Yeah, so why don't you start?
I mean, go like, tell quicklyyour story like what, tell me
what kind of your insecuritiesand have they changed over?
like the last three years?
especially like what have tellme, tell me at all I think they

(03:36):
have.

Pam (03:37):
But I guess for me this started because I'm a Scottish
person that lives in Canada andpeople would talk to me and my
husband about whiskey.
But they would always directthe questions at him or talk to
him And not really me, and Iused to get so mad about it
because everything he knew aboutwhiskey he learned from me

(03:58):
essentially, so it kind ofpissed me off.

Chelsey (04:01):
Did he give you credit?
Was he like Oh, i learnedeverything from my wife.
Did he say that?

Pam (04:05):
occasionally, occasionally, yeah, but it's still.
I still was just a bit likethat's annoying.
So in the back of my head thatwas always kind of there when we
started the podcast.
But they're like, that's the.
That's the bare bones of why.
But there's obviously beenother like expediencies there.

(04:26):
Like you know, like there's alot of stereotyping behind, like
people who look at women whodrink whiskey, i think as well.
Like I'm sure you know this too.
Like sometimes people thinkyou're either like kind of a
tomboy type personality whichI'm not really to be honest with
you No, no, or like the, the,the, the pick me girl.

Chelsey (04:48):
You ever heard that term?

Pam (04:50):
I'm not like the other girls.
Yeah, You know that type ofyeah.
Oh, but it just, it's a drinkpeople Like.
I just I think.
I really that really irritatesme And obviously when you and I
started hanging out and you hadhad some similar thoughts on the
topic, like just feelingunderrepresented as a female who

(05:13):
likes whiskey, and there wasn'tanybody that kind of made me
feel represented in this podcastand especially that's why we
chose this medium.
But in general, just therewasn't anybody that kind of
seemed like me.
That was.

Chelsey (05:29):
That was interesting whiskey, so yeah, take all the
things that you enjoy life andadding whiskey to it, instead of
confine or conforming to thetraditional kind of I guess you
know aesthetic of what whiskeymaybe was perceived as
beforehand.
You know, with like the woodand the acoustic guitar and all
there's a ooh, a branding, iron,ooh, like something like you

(05:51):
know what I mean, like that vibe, yeah.
So yeah, i know that's, that'sgood stuff.
That's good stuff.

Pam (06:00):
What about you?

Chelsey (06:03):
Well, I had no intention of ever.
I never thought I'd be in thisindustry.
I mean, whoever wakes up oneday is like I'm gonna, i think
I'm gonna get into whiskey.
today I just I kind of fellinto a job which inspired me to
learn about whiskey And I kindof fell in love with it.
And maybe it was just mynaivete but I just kind of
didn't really real.

(06:24):
Maybe it was this oblivious tomaybe the overt sexism I just
kind of you know.
so I just I think also, justbeing a server, you just kind of
learn how to just take thesecomments you know, like water
off a duck's back type of thing.
So I think it was.
it was easy enough for me tojust kind of throw myself into
it and then eventually just kindof not care.

(06:45):
And by the time I mayberecognized that it was, there
was a big, i guess, liketendency.

Pam (06:52):
Are you talking about, like sexist comments?

Chelsey (06:54):
Yeah, yeah, 100, yeah, sexist comments 100%.

Pam (06:58):
You maybe just didn't realize at the time that you
know that it wasn't appropriate.

Chelsey (07:03):
Yeah, because I think you grow up, you know, in your
early 20s you're like, or justyou know, teenager, early 20s I
always was had this mentality ofyou know, i don't want to cause
trouble.
You know, like I kind of menalways seemed more of an
authority, like I always wantedto, like I believed what they
said, i almost bought into myown self-missile.

(07:25):
You know, i think that I waskind of misogyny, like my
internal misogyny, that I thinkwe all have women to this day
And eventually just kind of youknow, easy grid, older you, just
you just become aware of thesethings.
So but I think, yeah, i thinkjust being exposed to it right
away And just I think I, just Ijust adapted, i think also

(07:47):
because I really wanted to haveas much tools in my tool belt to
combat any type of snidecomment.
So if you're going to say Idon't know anything about
whiskey, i'm going to knoweverything about whiskey And I'm
going to embarrass you.
So like, maybe not, you won'teven know it, but you know, if
someone knows, they know.

Pam (08:08):
And that's that's a technique that you took on to
combat that right, like that'salso kind of unfair.

Chelsey (08:16):
Yeah, yeah it is Because I mean, some people can
just get by on doing things,just being super aggressively,
mediocre and still succeed.
And I think, as women you dohave to be, you do have to go
above and beyond.
You are at the other day, ifeel, women, you, there's a bit
of infantilizing andunderestimation of women overall

(08:39):
in a male dominated industryAnd you know that and it puts me
on this It is I think it'simproving a lot Like what do you
think?

Pam (08:49):
I think it is definitely changing.
I think also there's there'stactics that we've maybe leaned
on in the first couple ofseasons of the podcast, that now
we've got our own selfconfidence in what we're doing,
that we maybe don't need to leanon that as much, like I feel
like we over, over over preparedfor everything we were doing,

(09:09):
like the imposter syndrome waswas real.
Yeah, and our technique forgetting over that was we.
We worked so hard on prep forevery episode we did Yeah.

Chelsey (09:22):
Oh yeah.

Pam (09:23):
We studied so much every episode.
What if they?

Chelsey (09:26):
would have to call us out.
But guess what?
If it's been really cool, likeI really love the people we've
met, men and women of all kinds.
It's been fucking fantastic.
But I think we did an interviewwith Shelly Sacier Sacier,
sacier, right Who wrote the makeit a double book, and one of
the things I think we Yeah, shewas so great.

(09:47):
Well, one of the things I willalways take with me is we had a
conversation about okay, well,i'm not going to, i don't
necessarily want to join thisparty, i'll start my own party
in a way, right.
So I think that's what thispodcast was at the end of the
day, like you know, i'm notgoing to, we're not going to.
Maybe we want to be part of thecommunity of 100% and we and we
are, but we also want to kindof start our own table within

(10:07):
the party you know what I meanAnd make our own rules a bit you
know, with our own perspective.

Pam (10:13):
And I think that also, like , can I close the hole?
I don't see someone that kindof represents me here, so it
goes in hand in hand.
So, oh, we're such a big littlepartnership, chelsea.
Oh, i love that, but you justkind of mentioned like things
have changed, which I dogenuinely think that they are,

(10:33):
and things are getting better,and a lot of the time, i have
noticed, though, it is it iswomen leading that change, and
for me, i know, like I spokeabout imposter syndrome and self
worth as well, because wewanted to make money out of this
right.

Chelsey (10:48):
So we're like, we just want to talk whiskey and have a
nice time.

Pam (10:52):
No, we don't.
We want to.

Chelsey (10:54):
No, I just want to give me all.
just give me whiskey, guys, i'mfine.

Pam (10:58):
I don't mean money to live It's fine.
But deciding how much you'reworth was really, really hard
And I really struggled with that.
So one of the things that Iended up doing was I signed up
for the mentorship program withour whiskey, which really,

(11:19):
really helped me like so much.
I was paired with a reallylovely lady called Emily and she
runs her own PR company inLondon and I would be talking to
her about my ideas or you know,some of the things we kind of
had in her back pocket here withwhat we're trying to build with
drama, fine, and she was likeum, that is absolute gold, like

(11:41):
that is That is worth so muchmoney to brands right?
Like why can't you see that?
You know?
and it is hard as a woman,especially because we kind of
trained from a young age toplease people or to help.

Chelsey (12:00):
Not take up space, you know, yeah, like I was saying,
we don't take up too much space,don't cause too much trouble,
let's go with the flow.

Pam (12:09):
I feel like I always wanted to do it for free, like people
don't do it for free, but likeyou, can always do it for free.

Chelsey (12:15):
No, no, no.

Pam (12:17):
And our time is precious.

Chelsey (12:19):
It's precious and limited, you know, not infinite,
I should say.

Pam (12:26):
Well, yours is because you always triple book yourself.

Chelsey (12:28):
I triple book myself.
I think that I can harvest likethree more of myself like clone
in last minute.
somehow figure it out.
I always leave Tudor Chelseajust fuck her over all the time.

Pam (12:40):
I do?

Chelsey (12:42):
I'm trying.

Pam (12:42):
Pam.

Chelsey (12:44):
I don't.
Well, today you did yesterday.
You're like Chelsea.
When can I reasonably give me areasonable time when you can
expect this to be edited,Because I do the editing people
just letting it go?
I was like part of me says thatit I could do it by tonight.
But I just know, Don't say that, because I'll just fucking
won't, Because I won't, I'llstress out, I'll do it and be

(13:06):
stressed out.
It won't be as good as I wantit to be, Or I'll just be like,
oh Pam, I can't do it.
And then I just broke mypromise.
So I just said I was like,maybe by Friday I'll be my
deadline.
Yeah, Thank you, Good ghetto.

Pam (13:19):
Good ghetto.
That's us, and we know eachother so well.
Give me a realistic date here,please, yeah.

Chelsey (13:31):
But I mean, but you know, the whiskey, this industry
.
I'm falling in love with itmore and more The longer we are
part of it, and the amount ofpeople we've met, and even just
you touching upon you whiskeyagain, which, oh sorry, our
whiskey, not you whiskey, pardonme to plug our uh-huh, me
whiskey, no, our whiskey, no,i'm joking, oh you whiskey, me

(13:52):
whiskey, us whiskey, our whiskey.
That mentorship program thatyou were part of, that Becky's
head that's her baby Yeah, sheuh just.
I really enjoy how she's makingthat just whiskey industry

(14:12):
accessible to, you know, just tominorities in general, like
people of color and, you know,women or just all types of
people.

Pam (14:23):
Yeah, well, i think that stereotype and really does stem
from the media and advertising,right, because a lot of the
imagery was always men.
But even that she's tackled andthere isn't really an excuse
for it anymore now that she'sbrought out her library Free
imagery, oh yeah, that's such acool idea.

Chelsey (14:43):
Can we get it?
Can we get it on that?
Can we send some photos ofherself to the free image
library?
I think we should do it.
Um, oh also, but don't younotice too, just the advertising
in the last few years forlarger, these larger companies
like Glenmore and G and um, whatelse do you want to see?
recently, they're just they're,so it's a cold, different type
of branding they're doing.

(15:03):
I'm noticing It's very likemodern, very bright, very, um,
very like accessible.
It's not what you would expect.
Maybe.
It's very sleek, chic.

Pam (15:13):
Yeah, i'm happy to see it.
Yeah, i'm happy to see it.

Chelsey (15:16):
Happy to see it.
Keep it going, guys and guys.

Pam (15:20):
Love it.
We love our vibrant colors.

Chelsey (15:23):
We do, although I love black, but it's fun to.
it's nice to wear color too.
sometimes You got me wearing somuch color.
now, pam, i know Like what thehell.

Pam (15:33):
What was it?
What was it you got inVancouver?
Oh, you got a really niceyellow skirt.
I bought a yellow skirt withpattern on.
I was thinking for you.

Chelsey (15:40):
I know Dintage baby, okay.
So, uh, should we talk about?
because we're going to, we'regoing to, eventually, kind of
we're going to, we're going tolet some um women that we, uh
I've gotten contact to withinthe industry, they're going to
kind of share their piece.
We asked them a few questionsand they're going to kind of

(16:01):
share a bit of their experience.
Um, but before we do that,though, we're drinking something
very special today, are we not?

Pam (16:08):
Oh yeah Yeah, I have something real really nice here.
Look at that out of yourpockets there We last.

Chelsey (16:15):
Is that good Scottish accent, or was that Irish?

Pam (16:19):
Was that?
That was horrendous.

Chelsey (16:22):
Pam hates it when people try to be Scottish.
Just grinds her gears.
Oh, I just love it.

Pam (16:29):
Honestly, It's not cool.
Do you know what?
I actually especially hate itwhen you do it?
Yeah, Oh because I, because Ido it just to piss you off, yeah
, i know how to get it, but I,but also you, told me you get
out to do it.
I did, do you know?
do you know how we stuff it tome now?

Chelsey (16:46):
Oh sorry, Did I sabotage you from the inside,
Within your family?
Oh sorry.

Pam (16:52):
I was all, all I'm Pam, all I'm Scottish and I've got pink
hair.

Chelsey (16:58):
Okay, well, my job here is done, i feel good about that
.
Pam, i'm sorry, but I feelthat's hilarious.
Okay, so what are we drinking?

Pam (17:10):
Right.
So I've got a lovely bottle ofColpalm and my mum brought over
for me.
My mum lives on Isla, as thelisteners probably know, and she
and her husband bought a caskfrom Colpalm and right early on
when they were starting out, andit's got like a nice wee story

(17:30):
to it.
So it's task number 95.
It was an all or also sherrycask imported to the UK by
Brooklady Distillery on Isla Andin 2001, it was filled with
Brooklady Spirit for a privatecustomer and bottled in 2011.
Within a month, the cask hadmade the short journey down the

(17:51):
road to Colpalm and DistilleryAnd it was filled on March 12.
It's cool having all thesedates in it, like it's so
interesting March 12, 2012, withspirits spirit produced from
the barley grown in thenortheast of Scotland And it's
maltied at 50 ppm at IslaMaltons in Brooklady.

(18:11):
And then the cask was taken tothe Conispy Warehouse of the
Distillery, overlooking theLochindolle.
Would it lead there for thenext 10 years?
So the cask was bottled on the13th of May 2022.
Oh, we have its birthday at54.9.

Chelsey (18:31):
Oh, we have its birthday.
It sounded like Mrs Doubtfirethere.
Hey, you pop it.

Pam (18:38):
You are at it.
Each bottle is individuallynumbered and there's only 297
bottles available, and we've gotone right here.

Chelsey (18:49):
And wow, that was a dissertation.
That was quite the.

Pam (18:52):
I know I've got a wee letter here.
It's like, basically it remindsme of having a cabbage patch,
though Oh yeah, it's like birthcertificate.

Chelsey (18:59):
It's like what I'm basically reading from Does it
have a list of its hopes anddreams and goals for the future.
Struggles in the past.
No It would be cool if it did.

Pam (19:08):
It would be cool if it did, maybe our cask Well, it kinda
does, actually, because it'scask.
Actually, it's got its caskdevelopment here so I can see
the colors It was, it's sexual.

Chelsey (19:18):
It doesn't want to win an egot.

Pam (19:20):
I don't know what that means.

Chelsey (19:21):
No, Emi, grammi, oscar, tony the egot Oh Yeah, that's
aspiration for some.
I think Wipi Goldberg has it.
They're out there, the egots.

Pam (19:34):
They're right there.
Oh well, let me pour you adrama that's in your window.

Chelsey (19:37):
Okay, pour me a drama.
Did I record it?
Did you hear that?
Yeah, okay, oh, we have Pamhere with beside me.
She can't hear, but just doyour pop, please.
Okay, oh, oh, oh, i swore Thatwas a good one.
It was like a pop and a I knowOkay.

Pam (19:59):
You're hot.

Chelsey (19:59):
Yeah, oh, thank you.
Okay, i have it with me.
I'll let Pam do her thing.
Get back into her spot.
Oh, she's sitting down, she'sputting her headphones on.
Oh, there she is.
She looks confused, perplexed,back at my station, gathering
her, gathering her, yeah,gathering herself.
Oh, she's happy, she's smiling,she's laughing, always happy,

(20:21):
yeah you are Fail Mostly tight,most of the time.

Pam (20:26):
I'm happy to be some kind of sociopath, mostly happy when
I've been just got a glass ofwhiskey.
Yeah.

Chelsey (20:32):
Yeah, and then me making fun of you.
Okay, So okay.
Well, let's do one any firstimpressions of this before we
get into our guests.
I think, hi, let's do it Welllet's just take a little quick
color, because it's a nice,that's a nice Beautiful color,
right Color?
would you call that Amber?

Pam (20:53):
Amber, maybe like a Dark amber, like a burnt, burnt amber
.

Chelsey (20:59):
Happy Burnt amber with a molasses and like a Yeah.
It's cool It looks oily Itlooks.

Pam (21:09):
It looks like quite oily, nice and oily, you got it.
It's got legs, it's got legs.
Okay, that just makes me thinkof ZZTool.
Yeah, that's.

Chelsey (21:20):
I think it's nice for everybody.
And what did you think ABB onthis sucker was?
It's like, it's like 59.
Yeah, it smells like a hot 59.

Pam (21:29):
54.9.

Chelsey (21:31):
Oh 54.9.

Pam (21:32):
Lovely.

Chelsey (21:35):
It's first impression.
Oh wow, That's nice.
It tastes oily Yeah.
Sweet oily goodness.
So you've had it many times bynow, huh.

Pam (21:52):
Yeah, I really like this one.

Chelsey (21:56):
Unfortunately, people, if you want to try it, you can't
, you can't, you can't, Or youjust have to befriend us and we
will maybe share some with you.
But overall, i mean, i haven'tbeen really disappointed by
anything by Coleman and I don'treally know.
They do some really cool,interesting, like special

(22:19):
release, or I guess releaseslike What do you call it?
Oh my God, what do you call itwhen you release something just
for like one person?
Special releases, special cast,yeah, yeah, god, yeah, they've
done some really interesting.
They do really interesting likespecial, like single cast
release, type of things, i thinklike Kensington Wine Market

(22:40):
down in Calgary.
They always do.
I think they do.
They have something really coolwith them at one point, i think
.

Pam (22:45):
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yeah, no, I've seen a fewplaces here doing that.

Chelsey (22:49):
Well, let's check back in with it after a few chats and
we'll see how it opens up.
You know, pickle, pickle, okay.
So who were we going to diveinto first?
Pamela?

Pam (23:02):
Well, actually, thanks for drinking with Coleman.
We should maybe go to ChloeWood.

Chelsey (23:06):
Chloe Wood.

Pam (23:08):
Yes, chloe Wood, let's do it.

Chelsey (23:10):
So she is the Export Sales and Marketing Manager for
a Coleman, I guess.
10 years experience in theindustry, as you'll find out, So
let's check in with her.
She answered some of ourquestions and let's see what she
has to say.
Chloe Hi everybody.

Speaker 6 (23:32):
My name is Chloe Wood and I'm the Export Sales and
Marketing Manager at ColemanDistillery from Islander.
The first question is how didyou get into whisky?
Now, my accent might give itaway.
I am from Islay originally, soI grew up on Islay until I was
about 23 and then left forSingapore.
But growing up on Islay hasplayed a huge part in as to why

(23:55):
I'm in the industry.
Now.
You know, when you grow up onIslay you're surrounded by
Scotch whisky.
You've got some amazingdistilleries that you've always
been aware of.
You know, even when you're veryyoung, whether that have been
the fact that your family mayhave worked there.
They may have done some workfor the distilleries.
They may have grown barley forsome of the distilleries as well

(24:16):
.
So there was always anawareness of single malt being
produced on the island.
And from my side I kind of comeat it from a different angle,
in the sense that my dad hegrows the barley for Cochomean
distillery at Rockside Farm, buthe also dries the barley for
Cochomean and for Braclady atour farm, our family farm, which

(24:38):
is Octafad, just down the roadfrom Port Charlotte.
So you know, from a productionside of things, that's where I
come from.
I was always fascinated withthe way whisky is made and
produced and having that kind ofpersonal connection with the
farm and my father doing it, youknow it just made it that bit
more personal.
And, as I said, i've alwaysbeen interested by the

(25:01):
production side of things.
You know I was always amazedthat you know you could take
these ingredients of barley,water and yeast and yet every
distillery is producingsomething different.
I was always fascinated by thatand you know I always kind of
thought I wanted to try and getinto it but I didn't really know
how.
But maybe now, nine, if not tenyears ago which is a scary

(25:23):
thought I started working atBraclady distillery as a
seasonal tour guide.
So you know that opportunity toprogress in the whisky industry
was always something that Ithought.
You know how amazing would itbe to be able to maybe travel
and talk about home, to reallykind of build the community on
Islay around whisky and showcasethe amazing spirits that we can

(25:45):
produce one site from home aswell.
So I started as a seasonal tourguide and then that took me off
in a direction into the BrandAcademy.
So it was always educationbased.
So I was the manager of theBrand Academy and then that led
to a position in Singapore whereI was the Asia Pacific brand
ambassador, closely followed bya global brand ambassador for

(26:07):
Braclady, and then in May lastyear so in 2022, i started with
the Co-Homan team as exportsales and marketing managers And
I think you know, coming at itfrom, i want to promote my home.
Ultimately, if you know, ifIslay does well, all the
distilleries do well, and Ithink everyone on Islay is doing

(26:30):
something totally different andif I can play a small part in
that progression, then I've donemy job.
The second question is what am Idrinking right now?
So, drum of choice, always adifficult one when we're always
releasing some new whiskeys likeCo-Homan, but I have to be
honest, it's the 100% Islay 12thedition.

(26:51):
So we released this last yeararound the world and, if anyone
knows, it's something we releaseas an annual limited release.
So it probably sits around12,000 to 13,000 bottles,
depending on the barley harvest.
But this is something thatwe're very proud of at the
distillery.
It's something that well, it'sthe reason Co-Homan was

(27:13):
established to do that barley tobottle, you know, with the only
distillery on the island thathas our own farm and takes that
barley from growing the actualgrain just outside at Rockside,
right the way through to malting, doing the full production,
warehousing and bottling it.
So this is why it's the 100%Islay And for me, this is, you

(27:34):
know, this is why I love workingfor the distillery, because it
is a version of Islay that youknow is so unique to Co-Homan.
Always a good shout, and I mayas well note that there will be
a 13th edition coming later inthe year, so definitely keep
your eyes and ears peeled forsome news on that.

(27:55):
The third question is what werethe challenges being a woman in
the whiskey industry?
So I think I've probably heardand seen quite a lot over the
the ten years, but you know, ithink it's progressively getting
better, which is it's apositive note, and I would say
that I've not not had too muchon my end.

(28:15):
I would say the one thing thatI am is is questioned on things,
maybe to test my knowledge andexperience, and maybe
second-guest.
You know the the the main oneis do we drink whiskey?
Do we enjoy it?
You know, and I can safely sayfor all the women working in
whiskey, we all, we all lovewhat we do.

(28:36):
You know there's a reason whywe're in this whiskey industry
and That reason may be differentfor everybody, but we've all
got that favorite whiskey, we'veall got that kind of chance to
unwind and enjoy a dram, and.
But I think if you work inwhiskey and you are consumer
facing, of course we want to beas knowledgeable as possible and
experience is key, right, so wetry and learn as much as we can

(29:01):
and that's that's for anybody,not just women.
I think everybody wants to beas knowledgeable in the industry
.
So, yes, i would say that those, those, those aspects are
questioned, and but the whiskeycommunity is an incredibly
strong and tight-knit communityas well.
So we have a lot of supportfrom the industry across the

(29:25):
board and Support fromcolleagues, of course, as well.
So, yes, we do see kind of that, that bad side of it, but you
also have the support that backsup.
So it's not something that wetry and dwell on too much.
And how do we overcome them?
And I think From my side, youknow you certainly feel that

(29:45):
there is a stereotype thatwhiskey is a man's drink, and I
think it's certainly changingthat stereotype, but it will
take a long time for thatstereotype to completely go.
My aim is always to make sureeveryone feels welcome, whatever
gender you may be, whether thatis a whiskey tasting or event,

(30:06):
or it might be a festival, itmight just be someone who
reaches out via social media.
I think as an industry we wantto spread that knowledge and
that kind of understanding ofour distillery, you know.
So it's making sure thateverybody feels welcome.
There's no question That's toosilly.
There's no question that youknow.
If, for example, i get asked aquestion And maybe sometimes I

(30:30):
don't know the answer becausewe've never been asked it, i
think it's making it anapproachable topic of
conversation, just making sureeveryone feels comfortable.
And on my side, to make sure Ican overcome any of those
questions, i need to be aseducated on the industry as
possible.
So on a day-to-day basis, youknow there's always extra

(30:51):
reading, there's articles beingread, there's podcast being
listened to, there's books beingread.
You know you're always tryingto further your own knowledge
because ultimately we are theconnection to the distillery.
So You know, out in markets Weare educating people, not just
on our own whiskey But the widerindustry as well, and it's
because everyone wants everyoneto do well.

(31:12):
So For us it's about education.
If you are 100% certain on whatyou're saying.
You know Be strong with thatand keep going.
And I think you know trust inyour own vision and opinion as
well.
But we're here to educate,ultimately, and be part of a
community that's meant to be funand exciting.

(31:34):
So that's what we should alwaysbe doing, and I always think
that you know That gendershouldn't come into the equation
and enjoying spirits.
It should include everybody.
And if I can Make people feelat ease or make people feel
comfortable, then I've done myjob.
You know It should.

(31:55):
All it shall always be excitingand fun.
And then the next question is isthere someone in the whiskey
industry, past or present, thatis an inspiration to you?
So I spent the majority of mytime with brooklady, as they say
.
I've been with Kohoman for ayear and I've looked up to many
women in the whiskey industryand kind of tried to learn from

(32:18):
each of them respectively.
But I was very fortunate towork alongside Lynn McEwen and
Geraldine Lagaric in the earlyyears.
I learned a lot of them, from alot from them, from a marketing
, sales and just passionPerspective as well.
You know, i think, if you'vegot an idea and you're strong
with it, to keep going and tokeep pushing on with it and To

(32:39):
be proud to voice an opinion aswell.
You know, i think Sometimesmaybe as a woman in the industry
, or not as, or maybe speakingfrom experience, were not as
forward, but no idea is a badone.
And I think that kind ofopenness comes from from
listening to the likes of Lynnand Geraldine And also I was, i
was lucky enough to work withLinda do And in Singapore and

(33:04):
again it's that passion and thatdrive to do well.
You know, and you learn fromfrom it, all of these people and
but I think across the board,i'm inspired by women in
production, you know, women inmarketing, women in sales to
those that are writing articlesand kind of doing much more
public speaking than I am in thewhiskey industry.

(33:26):
And What's really exciting forme is there's so many women that
are my age, so I'm 28.
You know this industry is fullof people that are excited and
driven by the industry.
So You know you can kind oflook for inspiration anywhere at
the moment.
And you know I was just at afestival and a whiskey festival
in New Zealand and so shout outto team at whiskey galore, and

(33:50):
there was so many young femalesPresenting their brands, and
that is an inspiration.
You know that people are justexcited and driven by the
industry.
So the next question is and areyou seeing a shift in attitude
towards women in whiskey?
And I would certainly say so,certainly from when I started,
and it was a lot more maledriven as a consumer, and but

(34:15):
over the years, so many morewomen had to come on board And
it's really great to see, to behonest, because it just takes
one woman to tell another totell another and then that's how
That change happens in theindustry.
So, absolutely, we're seeingmore and more people coming to
to the fore, and That thatreally is my role.

(34:35):
You know We often get asked todo women in whiskey tastings and
my.
Of course I'll happily hostthese, but I think it should
just be open to anybody.
You know, whether you are Womenor male, or sort of female and
male, it's completely irrelevantin my mind.
I think, if you want to learnmore about whiskey and get
involved with whiskey, that'swhere the key thing is, or the

(34:59):
key point in my mind.
So Just being as inclusive aspossible is allowing more women
to come into the industry, andYou know we're surrounded by
incredible people, you know,that are leading teams as women,
and that's that's inspiring aswell.
So I think when you've gotthese voices that are recognized

(35:21):
within the industry, they canonly strengthen the conversation
and Towards women working inthe whiskey industry.
So There's still a lot to do,of course, but if we can make
people feel excited, keep thatpassion alive within the whiskey
industry and make sure thatpeople are just enjoying what
we're doing, hopefully more andmore women will become part of

(35:44):
the industry as it progresses.
So I I shall sign off, butthank you very much for for
having a quick chat with me And,of course, we look forward to
seeing you at the next whiskeyfestival fair event, whatever it
may be.
Please come and say hello.
We're always open for aconversation and And sharing a

(36:07):
dram or two.
But thank you very much, takecare, guys.
Bye, bye.

Pam (36:14):
Oh, thanks, chloe.
I actually really like how shementions the colleague support.
I think that's really importantand any job of the year in.
But, like I feel like that'sProbably how we we go on with a
lot of stuff as well, because wehave each other To lean on when
we're feeling, you know, if aor whatever with the situation.

(36:37):
Yeah, but you know she talks alot about like just she just
wants to make everyone feelwelcome, like men and women,
which, of course, like I wouldlove for it to just be about
humans and not and not gendered.
But she mentions like extrapreparation for everything,
extra reading and all that, andobviously we mentioned that
earlier.
So I feel like, yeah, she's,she's totally Touching on the

(37:02):
similar things that we've we'vefelt, and but she's been it for
10 years Oh yeah, a long time.
But I'm glad to hear that she'snoticing a shift, and in the
industry as well.

Chelsey (37:16):
Yeah, from you know, having people like her behind
the scenes, right, she's helping.
We're all, we're all wordedtogether here.
Yeah, she's really she's.
She sounds like a lovely,lovely person And I actually
would love to meet her in personone day.
So, hey, chloe, come toEdmonton.
We got a big mall.
Got a great big mole got a realbig mall, is a ship in it.
That's all you need to know.

(37:38):
Okay, chloe, yeah, she soundslovely and she's a great accent
as well.
But, yeah, i also, yeah, ireally enjoyed her for sentiment
.
I can really relate to whatshe's saying, for sure.
And yeah, it is nice to havesupport, you know, even with you
, it's great to have you to leanon, which I do and, let's be
honest, i do all the time.
But I'm, even with my previousexperience in, actually, you

(38:02):
know, the job I have now and theform and the distillery I
worked for, they were very like,you know, very supportive of
letting me kind of take the leadon things and running tastings
and and do kind of rising to theoccasion to meet, i Guess, my
needs of what I, what I wantedto do, and not, I Guess, under a

(38:25):
stay, maybe let's put it thatway there.
Yeah, good, good people.
Yeah, okay, well, should we?
Next let's do sex?
you know why?
let's?
let's add to.
Well, do you like?
do like black Sabbath?

Pam (38:43):
Yeah, I love Black Sabbath.
I want to see them.

Chelsey (38:46):
Oh I see Nausie.
Well, we are.
He's on the pod, Ausie, Come on.
What do you have to say aboutwomen in whiskey?
You know he does quote one ofhis, one of his solo songs.
He says wine is fine, butwhiskey is quicker.
Suicide is slow, with liquor Alittle dark, but that's Nausie
for you.

Pam (39:08):
That was great.
I like that.
That's a good segue.

Chelsey (39:11):
Yeah, so that leads to the.
You know we're heading to thebourbon whiskey And not just any
bourbon whiskey Bourbonistly,bourbonistly, i was trying to
say bourbon whiskey from England.
So which is bourbonistlyEngland whiskey?
Yeah, so obviously it comes tomind.

(39:31):
When you think of bourbon, youthink of England, right, of
course you do.
Yeah, there's like two peas ina pod.
So never say die is actuallythe first bourbon to be
distilled in Kentucky butshipped via the Atlantic Ocean
vessel and then matured inEngland.
And so never say die.
Really cool name is also aBlack Sabbath album for those

(39:55):
who don't know.
So we are going to let Martha,who is the brand co-founder, say
her piece on her experience inthe industry as a English person
making whiskey in England, youknow, martha, take it away.

Pam (40:24):
Perfect Okay.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
How did you get into whiskey?
So I'm a political strategistby trade and I run a
communications company in Londonwith some of the other founders
of never say die, and we'vealways been bourbon fans, drunk
a lot of bourbon when we werestarting up our business and
also on trips to America.
And so when my business partner, david, went to the Kentucky

(40:49):
Derby with his old universityfriend, pat, they were drinking
mint juleps on the way to theDerby And Pat was telling this
story about this horse callednever say die that grew up on
his family's farm And the reasonit was called never say die was
when it was born it was reallystruggling for breath And the

(41:12):
horseman, in the sort of lastroll of the dice, decided to
give it a shot of bourbon andbasically said this is either
going to kill it or save itslife.
And then the next morning itwas running around the pen and
so they called it never say dieAnd that horse went on to win be

(41:32):
the first American racehorse towin an English Derby.
And so you know, as a BritainAmerican chatting at the Derby,
they just thought what anamazing story for a
transatlantic bourbon brand.
And so when David came back toLondon and told me about this.
I knew that I had to getinvolved and make that dream a
reality, and I'm really proudthat that's what we've done.

(41:58):
What are you drinking right now?
So we are in the final samplingstages for our next skew, which
is going to be a small batchbourbon, hopefully to be
launched this spring, summer.
And what's been really excitingis that we, out through this
process, we've been tasting allof the barrels that we have here

(42:21):
in the UK that have been oceanaged, and it's just so
interesting the different flavorprofiles of those different
barrels.
Some, you know, quite hot,they're quite cinnamony.
Others are, you know, reallysmooth and you know real taste
of caramel.
And others actually are quite,you know, they're quite sweet.

(42:42):
You know almost candy flosslike.
So what we're doing at themoment is trying to come up with
the best flavor combinations sothat we can bring that small
batch bourbon to market.
So, yeah, that's what I'mdrinking right now.
I'm quite a lot of it.
So, yeah, it's been fun.
What were the challenges ofbeing a woman in the whisky

(43:04):
industry and how did youovercome them?
So I'm used to being in a maledominated industry, being in
politics, and whisky is quitesimilar.
I think it often means thatpeople underestimate you and you
have a bit of imposter syndrome, but I think that you have to
harness that and enable thatkind of imposter syndrome to

(43:28):
help you take risks and to dothings before you're ready,
which I think is what all youknow great entrepreneurs and
great brands do.
If you take the bourbon tariff,for example, which made it
really expensive to importAmerican whisky to the UK and
for us, put our entire plans onhold, it was women that sorted

(43:50):
that out.
So a trade war started by Trumpand Yonker, sorted out by two
amazing women, ambassador Taiand our trade secretary
Trevelyan.
So I think it's just about, youknow, women getting shit done
really, and for us, with ourbrand, we've got loads of

(44:12):
amazing women involved, and Ijust know that if a woman tells
you she's going to do something,that she will do it, and
there's just less bullshit.
So I think that's what it'sabout working with great people,
often great women.

Pam (44:29):
Is there someone in the whisky industry, past or present
?
that is an inspiration to you.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
It's a hard question because there are so many
amazing women doing incrediblethings, but for me, mary Ann
Barnes is a real hero of mine.
She's the first female masterstiller in Kentucky Bourbon
obviously an industry reallydominated by men And her track

(44:55):
record completely speaks foritself.
She worked her way up at BrownForeman, starting as an intern
all the way to being the starpeople of Chris Morris and
becoming Woodford's first evermaster taster along the way.
So you know, just an incrediblewoman.
And then here in the UK, dawnDavies is the head buyer of the

(45:19):
whisky exchange.
You know, total force of nature, just an expert on all things
whisky and, to be honest, allthings drinks.
And when we were launching atthe whisky exchanges trade show
in London, she was just such abig supporter of ours and I
can't thank her enough.

(45:42):
Why do you see the shift inattitudes towards women in
whisky?
I think I'm too much of anewbie in the industry to really
speak to whether there's been ashift, but as someone that is
new in the industry, i thinkthat there are loads of women
doing amazing stuff in theindustry.
I've met amazing founders ofbusinesses, people that have

(46:07):
been involved in, you know,distilling whisky buyers,
journalists, prs So I don'tthink it's really about there
being a lack of women.
It's just about women beingtaken seriously, and you know
the prominence of women in theindustry, and since we launched
in September, i've met so manywomen that are knowledgeable and

(46:28):
passionate, so I think it'sjust about us helping each other
, and you know, being the personin a room that will hear a lot
of women, so that's what I hopeto do.

Chelsey (46:42):
Wow, she's, she's badass.
I like her vibe, yeah, i do too.

Pam (46:49):
I like that.
She's like women just gettingshit done.
Let's do shit.

Chelsey (46:54):
Horses, let's name things after racing horses.
Give some whiz, give some horsea whisky.
See what happens.
Like there's so much potentialfrom giving horses whisky, i
think.
But yeah, so what do you?
what do you?
Yeah, she kind of you know shetalks.
it's talks about a lot of thesimilar things that we were

(47:16):
touching upon with Chloe as well, and Ken imposter syndrome.
What a concept.
Seems to be a running theme.

Pam (47:24):
It does, it does, But I like that.
She's like.
You know, the thing to combatis to take risks and to do
things before you feel ready.
Yeah, I feel like we know thatnow.
Yeah, you just do it.

Chelsey (47:36):
I think Nike said it best you know, Yeah.

Pam (47:40):
I also liked her talking about you know the working in
politics and how she's alwayskind of been in a male dominate
industry.
That was kind of interesting tome.

Chelsey (47:49):
Politics seems like I would never want to work in
politics, oh God, especiallynowadays.
Give me whiskey, i would bedrinking way too much whiskey if
I was in politics, that's forsure, be drunk all the time.
But you know what?
that would probably be good.
I mean, i'd probably be veryjust, you know, be drunk the
entire time and get a big votingbase, i'm sure nowadays because

(48:12):
this has got into politics here.
So we move on to the nextwonderful woman we had the
pleasure of speaking with.

Pam (48:24):
Yeah, i think we're going to stick on the Kentucky train.
here.
We're going to talk to MorganHancock, who runs Bourbon with
Heart, which is the only artsfocused bourbon charity, first
and only.
Yeah, she's doing pretty coolthings there, raising money for
good causes and then doing goodshit over there in Kentucky.

(48:45):
So let's hear what she's got tosay about her experience.

Speaker 5 (49:10):
Question one how did you get into whiskey?
I got into bourbon the way thatevery native born Kentucky and
gets into bourbon.
We're born in Kentucky.
You can't be living Kentuckyand not be impacted by the

(49:35):
influence of bourbon, whetherthat's culturally or
economically.
Bourbon is a large part of whatmakes Kentucky Kentucky.
But beyond that, my fiance offive years owns a fire

(50:00):
protection company and hiscompany does the fire protection
for, honestly, the majority ofthe distilleries in Kentucky and
fire protection is a veryimportant part of making bourbon
.
It is flammable And some prettybad things have happened of

(50:25):
combining improper fireprotection and distilleries.
So it's a big job for him.
But through that he was verywell connected with a lot of
players in the bourbon industry.
And then also I've been inadvertising for most of my life.

(50:45):
And again, if you're going towork in Kentucky, and
particularly in advertising ormedia, the bourbon brands are
going to be big And those aregoing to be accounts and those
are going to be clients that aregoing to be some of your
biggest.
So I also became very familiarand well connected with the
bourbon world throughadvertising and media.

(51:11):
Question two what are youdrinking right now?
When people ask me what I'mdrinking.
I sometimes joke and just givea politically correct answer
that I'm drinking whicheverbourbon brand is sponsoring me
at the time.
But I'll give you a little lessPC answer.

(51:35):
I always wish that I had somemaybe cooler or more unique
bourbon to claim as my bourbon,but if I'm being really honest,
just Jim being white label is myfavorite.

(51:59):
Question three what were thechallenges of being a woman in
the whiskey industry?
The challenges of being a womanin the bourbon industry are
much of the same challenges ofbeing a woman in any industry,

(52:21):
any male dominated industry.
So I don't know if there'sanything particularly unique to
being a woman in the bourbonindustry, other than I don't
think it's typically viewed as adrink that female prefer.
In fact, it's funny, even goingback to my college days, if I

(52:46):
was out with a guy and one of uswould order a bourbon, and if I
would order a bourbon and hemight order something different,
they would always set thebourbon in front of him,
assuming that it would be theman drinking bourbon.

(53:09):
Or if someone asked oh what doyou want to drink?
A vodka, soda, wine?
And I'd say no on a bourbon.
You do seem to get a littlehesitation or a pause, are you
sure?
Yes, women do like bourbon too,so I guess that is one unique
component of being a womanassociated with the bourbon

(53:31):
industry or just being a femalebourbon drinker in general.
But I do think that is changing.
See next question Is theresomeone in the whiskey industry,
past or present, that's aninspiration to you?

(54:01):
If I had to pick someone in thebourbon industry who's an
inspiration to me, i think Iwould have to go with Peggy Noe
Stevens.
I mean, she's really been thepioneer and blaze the trail for

(54:21):
women in bourbon And since I'msomeone who's not seeking to be
a master distiller ornecessarily work in the industry
of creating bourbon, she's kindof a role model and an example

(54:44):
of how you can be a woman in thebourbon industry, but on the
more educational entertainmentspokeswoman side of it And
that's kind of more where I seemyself And she's just done a lot

(55:09):
of incredible work and, as Isaid, just really paved the way
for women in bourbon.
If you ask somebody name afemale in the bourbon industry,

(55:31):
her name's gonna come up.
So she's an inspiration to meas well as you guys.
You know Anyone that's justputting themselves out there and
trying to make an impact in anindustry that they're passionate
about.

(55:53):
Next question are you seeing ashift in attitudes towards women
in whiskey?
I think we're definitely seeinga shift in attitudes towards
women in whiskey.
We're seeing female masterdistillers pop up all the time

(56:13):
and women in other leadershiproles.
We're seeing a lot more femaleinfluencers in the bourbon
industry, for sure, and theyseem to be taken more seriously
and respected, and we're seeingall kinds of women in bourbon

(56:35):
social clubs and groups poppingup.
I will say, the one thing thatwe've still not seen much of
maybe never is a female as thebrand of a bourbon, as in a
female's face name on the labelof the bourbon brand.

(57:01):
So that's something that I'mstill looking forward to
happening one day, hopefullysooner than later.

Chelsey (57:13):
My biggest takeaway from that was Peggy Nose Stevens
.
What a name.
It was a trailblazer indeed.
I'm loving kind of diverging abit from our scotch, our normal
scotch programming, because youwere learning about so many more
influential people within thewhiskey industry.

(57:34):
Like bourbon is a very muchuntapped.
Like Kentucky, bourbon is verymuch untapped kind of plane that
we haven't yet to reallyexplore Truly right.
Hearing her inspirations like Ican't wait to dive in and learn
more about her.

Pam (57:49):
Yeah, i mean, i think also, when we started the podcast, we
really really only focused onscotch because it was within our
comfort zone, and now we'rereally expanding to all
different kinds of whiskey andlearning so much about world
whiskey And it's reallyeye-opening and so interesting.

Chelsey (58:06):
So, yeah, yeah, i know I'm loving it And it's a perfect
time to do it too, like justwith the expanding, i guess,
category of whiskey.
Like everywhere you go, likeyou know, new Zealand is popping
out more distilleriesEverywhere you go.
They're just doing more andmore distilleries and they're
becoming more.
They're just more accessible.
They're making amazing things,they're trying new, interesting

(58:27):
techniques.
Yeah, it's a really interestingtime to be into whiskey in
general.

Pam (58:36):
What a time to be alive.

Chelsey (58:37):
What an age.

Pam (58:39):
What an age.
No, I agree with you, It'sgreat, And you know she did also
still touch on a fewinteresting points there.
Like you know, maybe therewasn't a lot of female role
models back in the day, but nowthat is definitely, definitely
changing And even with ourwhiskey, like we mentioned
before, you can actively seekout like a mentor and have a

(59:02):
role model that you can connectwith and help support you.
This isn't an advert for ourwhiskey, by the way, I just
really enjoyed my experiencewith them.

Speaker 6 (59:10):
She's doing such a great job.

Pam (59:12):
It's genuinely did, yeah, okay we're going to.

Chelsey (59:16):
We'll head over and chat with Julie, aka
RedLiftStickWiskeyDiary.
You can find her on, i guess,instagram.
She's a friend of ours andlet's hear what she has to say
about her time in industry.

Speaker 4 (59:47):
Hi, i just want to say a big thank you to the
DramFind Whiskey Podcast galsfor inviting me.
You two are incredible,inspirational women in the
whiskey industry.
Alright, question one How didyou get into whiskey?
How did I get into whiskey?

(01:00:08):
What I'll credit my originstory to is about a decade and a
half ago.
I went to visit a friend inEngland and he looked at me one
day and he said Have you evertasted whiskey?
I said yes.
He said Have you actuallytasted whiskey?

(01:00:28):
So later that day we went to apub.
He orders a whole bunch ofwhiskeys.
He lines them up in front of me.
My eyes go wide, i have no ideawhat's going on.
And he told me that he learnedhow to taste whiskey properly
and wanted to share thatknowledge with me.

(01:00:48):
So he lined up these whiskeys,lined them up from very light,
airy, floral, all the way downto campfire, and I picked up the
first glass on the light end Ibelieve it was a pender in
actually Welsh whiskey andtaught me how to properly nose

(01:01:10):
and taste whiskey.
But the first sip I took hesaid What does that taste like?
I said It tastes like whiskey.
By the end of this experience,working from light and airy all
the way down to really smokypeaty, i was able to start
understanding that there aredifferences and picking out very

(01:01:31):
for rudimentary tasting notesfrom this very cool lineup.
And that sparked that curiosity, the exploration, the joy and
presence involved in tasting andexploring the world of whiskey,
and for me that's sprung intothe entire spirits category,

(01:01:55):
every kind of spirits really.
My only regret is that I didn'tcome back from that trip with
more bottles in tow.
but you know everywhere Itravel, since I always try to
come back with somethinginteresting to try.
Question two What are youdrinking right now?

(01:02:17):
Well, full transparency.
This is the morning.
What am I drinking right now?
I am sipping some coffee, butfunnily enough, i was reviewing
a couple of samples when I firstgot up.
Might not answer your questiondirectly, but I believe it is

(01:02:38):
best to taste and review samplesat least once in your tasting
or reviewing journey, firstthing in the morning, because
that's when your nose and palateare most fresh.
So I promise I don't endorsechugging whiskey to start your
day, whatever floats your boat,but it's something I do often.

(01:02:58):
When I'm reviewing spirits,i'll taste things multiple times
and one of those times will befirst thing in the morning.
So it's like you know a fifthof an ounce or something like
that.
So what am I drinking right nowthat I'm excited about?
I love Artbeck and I recentlypicked up a new bottle of

(01:03:19):
Uggadal in my travels becauseit's difficult to get in my
provincial liquor stores,unfortunately for me, but it's a
classic in my eyes.
So if you haven't had theopportunity to try it, i highly
recommend.
It's a beautiful, beautifulwhiskey.

(01:03:39):
Question three What were thechallenges?
being a woman in the whiskeyindustry Just existing.
So it's not a surprise.
Whiskey, the whiskey community,the whiskey world is

(01:04:03):
historically built aroundgenerally white siss head men,
and that's not to say therearen't incredible men that fit
into that category that aren'tdoing things to actively include
women and be strong allies.

(01:04:24):
I'm not saying that for amoment, because that's where
this community was rooted in.
Those assumptions persist.
They persist to this day.
There are so many commonassumptions that I see pop up,
either consciously orsubconsciously, across brands,

(01:04:47):
content creators, some of whomhave tremendous followings,
marketing and more right.
So common assumptions thatwomen are not educated about
whiskey, that women don't liketo drink whiskey.
That if women do like to drinkwhiskey, they only prefer

(01:05:08):
whiskey that tastes more sweetin profile or has a low ABV or a
low proof, that they need it tobe in sugary cocktails.
I could go on.
It's also common to besexualized in the whiskey world,
and I don't necessarily meanthat exclusively in the what I

(01:05:32):
call the whiskey community orwhiskey fabric.
I mean that even if I were tobe at a bar sipping on a whiskey
neat you know, you invite anenergy, whether you would like
to engage in that energy or not,of people being overly
interested in some cases tryingto over explain to you about the

(01:05:55):
thing that you're drinking,even if that's not a
conversation you wish to have.
But on social media inparticular, which is a space I
have spent a lot of time in,particularly in the past couple
of years through Redlaw whiskeydiary, i've seen a lot of women

(01:06:17):
and I don't know what theintention is behind their brand
on social media.
But I've seen a lot of womenoverly sexualize themselves,
perhaps in hopes of buildingmore of a follower base, because
they understand that a lot ofwhiskey interests come from a

(01:06:39):
particular category of men Andunfortunately, i believe it
risks reducing credibility ifthat is the main shtick and the
main hook to get people in.

(01:07:00):
I say that carefully because Ibelieve in autonomy, that any
woman who chooses to expressthemselves should be able to
express themselves in any waythey see fit.
Whether that aligns to a moresexualized image or something
completely beyond that fact,it's none of my business.

(01:07:21):
But knowing and acknowledgingthe history of where the whiskey
history has been, thinkingabout where we want it to go,
understanding and being veryconscious of the hurdles.
It's difficult to feel goodabout people who fully play into

(01:07:46):
that, particularly people whohave tremendous knowledge or
tremendous interest And now insome cases tremendous following
and heavily lean into thatsexualized image.
It's challenging And I'mchallenged by that because I

(01:08:11):
sometimes see and feel thenegative repercussions of it.
People will act in a way that isnot great behavior towards that
creator.
That creator won't necessarilycall them out, call them in and
they invite that attention Andthen they think it's okay to
express that way to anotherwoman who is interested in

(01:08:33):
whiskey.
I don't stay silent when itcomes to that type of behavior,
whether it's the hey, someone'sacting out a line and splashing
out or even on the assumptionbasis that I was talking about a
couple minutes ago.
So I have engaged primarily oneto one in DMs, other men who

(01:09:00):
are content creators who haveexpressed those limiting
assumptions, because I don'tthink it's appropriate And I
always see the best in people.
I always assume good intent inpeople, particularly folks in
this community, that they justmight not know and they've never
had this conversation and theyhave never considered that them

(01:09:25):
expressing an unconscious biasmight have negative effects to
someone consuming that message.
So I engage them and in somecases they don't change their
position by the end of theconversation.
In some cases they feel reallygrateful and enlightened and

(01:09:46):
they've learned something andthey change their behavior,
moving forward.
So those are things that aretop of mind for me and
challenges because it's acommunity and these communities
have so many elements in itwhiskey clubs, whiskey tastings,
pr and advertisingopportunities, education

(01:10:11):
opportunities.
They're all interactions,they're all opportunities.
So all of these things.
So talking about community,community requires people and if
we don't bring in more peoplethat are diverse and we're just
going to perpetuate the waythings have always been and then

(01:10:32):
it will continue to be exactlyin that way.
So that's why I'm aware and I'mconscious.
Question 4.
How did you overcome them?
Well, it's a dualist sword Idon't think I've overcome

(01:10:55):
because it's a constant everydayconsideration and conversation
instead of actions.
But what I do in my tiny cornerof the universe, my little
bubble of the whiskey community,i try to cultivate a safe,

(01:11:18):
diverse space to ask questions,to share tasting notes, to do
everything with a wink and asmile, my funny, weird, sensey
humor.
Everything should be beautiful.
This is something that isenjoyable.
Whiskey is fun.

(01:11:38):
It shouldn't be taken soseriously.
In a way, i'm also verythoughtful about how I present
myself, particularly in thecontext of whiskey.
So, yes, i love vintageaesthetic there is a wink and a

(01:11:59):
smile, it is cute, pin-up,curated.
But I do try my best to notflaunt and over sexualize my
image, particularly in thiscorner, because I think it's a
balance.
That's my self and my brand.

(01:12:23):
I do my best to put out materialthat is well researched, that
is very thoughtful.
My tasting notes I've typicallytasted the spirit several times
.
I don't tend to do any of thesethings by accident,
particularly as a woman in thewhiskey community who I'm

(01:12:48):
grateful to have grown afantastic following and
community of people who carewhat I have to say.
Oh, my goodness, believe that.
I don't believe it some days,but I don't take that lightly.
So I'm very intentional with mywords.
I'm intentional about thecandor I share and I want to

(01:13:17):
make sure that I am playing asmall role in challenging the
way we think about whiskey, butalso the way we think about
women in relation to whiskey,because of all the themes and
the historical stuff I justtalked about.
I also believe strongly inchallenging the status quo.

(01:13:49):
Hopefully you're getting asense of that through this
conversation, but I tend to be asqueaky wheel and I'd love to
see more people within thewhiskey community saying these
types of things.
So a couple examples for whiskeyclubs.
I actually had a conversationwith someone who runs a local

(01:14:13):
whiskey club who was wonderingoh, how do we get more women?
I'm trying, but we're notgetting more women membership.
So I made some suggestions.
Why not encourage more bring afriend opportunities?
How can we kind of bust throughthis small insular bubble of
people that we tap into?

(01:14:34):
Maybe that's an opportunity.
What are some of the hurdles andreasons why women might not be
participating in some of thesetastings?
Could be access.
Maybe there are women who dohave childcare duties and can't
physically be in person atevents.
Maybe there's an opportunity tooffer a diverse modality event,

(01:14:57):
so hybrid events.
So maybe some people are tunedin on, you know, through
conference, and some are inperson.
Maybe there are just additionalones that are purely virtual.
So access is one piece.
How can we keep asking thesequestions and taking up space
and talking about it more onsocial media?

(01:15:19):
So in conversations, even withfriends in the whiskey world and
whiskey community, i tend toask and say, hey, do we have any
invited guests coming to thisevent that are women.
Who are they?
Are there anyone?
Is there anyone missing that weshould have on the invite list.
So I tend to be that squeakywill in that voice in the room,

(01:15:44):
but I'd love to see more ofthose people being that voice.
Imagine the impact of thosequestions being asked from a man
.
Those are the things I want tocontinue seeing happen, and only
when that happens and continuesto snowball into progress.

(01:16:08):
So I'm glad to see it startingto happen, but there's so much
more that we can do for it toturn into marketable change.
Question five Is there someonein the whiskey industry, past or
present, that is an inspirationto you?

(01:16:29):
Yes, there are a lot ofincredible whiskey women out
there.
I'll give you one past and onepresent.
So for the woman of the past,bessie Williamson, she is the

(01:16:49):
only woman to own and run aScottish distillery in the 20th
century which is LaFroyq.
And Bessie isn't from Isla, nofamilial connection to the
whiskey industry.
So if you haven't read into herstory, it's pretty darn cool to
see how she was able to comeinto this role.

(01:17:12):
And our woman of the present,it's got to be Fawn Weaver.
Fawn Weaver is the CEO andfounder of Grant Sidney Inc.
Grant Sidney Inc owns UncleNearest, uncle Nearest and Uncle

(01:17:35):
Nearest Whiskey.
It honors the world's firstknown African American master
distiller, nearest Green, Andthat story is very interesting
and important.
I'm really inspired by the workthat Fawn and Co have done to

(01:17:56):
turn that into a very knownpiece of whiskey history that
many of us didn't know about andalso an incredibly successful
whiskey company.
So both in their own rightabsolute trailblazers, with many
more to come on the horizon Biginspiration.

(01:18:28):
Question six Are you seeing ashift in attitudes towards women
in whiskey?
Yes and no.
So, as you can imagine, we'vecome a long way.
We've come a long way from thedays of Bessie Williams, but I

(01:18:51):
think we can do better.
It's great to see more womenbeing included and marketed to,
and I firmly believe that weneed to keep evolving forward.
So in some cases thatinvolvement is tokenism, so it's

(01:19:14):
saying, hey, look, we've put awoman front and center of this
campaign, but it's once a year,maybe it's for International
Women's Day, and then there'salso a lot of tolerance in the
whiskey community.
So even in whiskey clubs orwhiskey events, women aren't

(01:19:35):
actively excluded, like, yeah,they can come in, they can book
a ticket, but they might not bethe ones looped into what and
when is happening.
There's a lot of tight knitcommunities that share these
events that they're happening.
The people bringing peoplealong tend to still be a lot of

(01:19:57):
guys, a lot of men.
So how can we expand thatbubble further?
So tolerance doesn'tnecessarily equate to progress.
So conscious and activeinclusion is what we need to
move forward with And that's howwe're going to see more change

(01:20:19):
and evolution happen in thewhiskey world and the whiskey
community.
So a lot of that is asking thesehard questions Some I've
touched on today, but it'sasking the hard questions.
So are we actively doinganything to bring women here?
Are there things we don't evenrealize we're doing to hinder

(01:20:41):
their participation?
Is there something that's beingsaid?
Is there somethinguncomfortable about this current
environment where women don'tfeel safe or excited to
participate?
Those are the things that weneed to do to shake up the

(01:21:02):
current status quo and continueevolving towards that next phase
of whiskey community.
And I love hearing theconversations that are coming
from brands, from people workingin PR and brand ambassador ship

(01:21:24):
.
I've had a lot of conversationsthat people saying, hey, we
want to actively evolve ourvoice and feature more women.
We want our product to beactively reviewed by more women.
We want the conversation toinclude more.
So the more we take up space,the more we're invited

(01:21:45):
consciously to have a seat atthe table.
That's how we're going to keepshifting the attitude towards
women in whiskey, so reallyappreciate the opportunity.
This is a step forward becauseyou're using your platform to
feature a humble whiskey nerdwho happens to be a woman, Me.

Chelsey (01:22:28):
Wow.
Julie has first off.
what a soothing voice she does.

Speaker 3 (01:22:35):
I feel like.

Chelsey (01:22:37):
I was listening to an audio book.

Pam (01:22:39):
Did you not think so?

Chelsey (01:22:41):
Yeah, she put me in a trance.

Pam (01:22:46):
I love Julie's realness.
I really love their talkingabout the roots of the industry
and the common assumptions aboutwomen liking lighter whiskeys
etc.
And how women are sexualizedjust drinking a whiskey at a bar
?
It's not always invited, it'sso true.

(01:23:08):
Some of the things she wassaying there I actually really,
really kind of was followingalong with her when she was
talking about the sexualizedcontent and social media.
She kind of touched on it alittle bit, like the risks that
of doing that, like you're kindof inviting trolling.

(01:23:31):
I feel personally I'm scared ofthat because I feel like you're
inviting trolling or you'reinviting just bullshit into your
DMs.
I don't want it And it's almoston the same vein as the women
sitting at the bar having adrink.

Chelsey (01:23:48):
Yeah, i get it.
I get it And I know like shesaid it, she said it with a lot
of like, she expressed herselfwith a lot of her words, very
carefully, with a lot of weight,and because I think, at the end
of the day, i don't think Idon't want to ever insult the
way other women presentthemselves drinking whiskey.
You know what I mean.

(01:24:08):
Like I want.

Pam (01:24:09):
Of course, and she said that too.
She said that too, though.
She said, like you know, womendo whatever they want to express
themselves.
Yeah, but it's unfortunate.

Chelsey (01:24:17):
It's unfortunate, yeah, it's unfortunate that you
welcome a certain type of Youinvite a certain type of
commentary.
If that's the intro to, yeah,the whiskey that you're drinking
, yeah, i get it.
It's one of those things that'seasy, so easy to get more
engagement if you tap intosexuality.

(01:24:38):
That's just that's fucking.
That That's just fucking howthe?
advertising's always worked.

Speaker 3 (01:24:42):
Sexualizing women, right, that's just the world.

Chelsey (01:24:46):
So I know, you know, we sometimes do it too, you know.

Pam (01:24:52):
But I dare you.
Do you know what I've had toedit a few boobs in my day of
yours?
That was an accident, that'strue, that was an accident for
my god's sake.

Chelsey (01:25:07):
Just our anatomy.

Pam (01:25:07):
We can't help it.
It's there.
That was a wardrobe malfunction, yeah, but thank god for
Photoshop.

Speaker 3 (01:25:15):
Anyway.

Pam (01:25:15):
Photoshop skills.
My god, that was so bad, anyway.
So back to Julie.
I honestly I like to talk aboutkind of challenging people in
our DMs If they do come drop inthere with some sort of
inappropriate comment.
I think it is important tochallenge people who are out
aligning whatever way, and she'sdoing it, she's a force and I

(01:25:38):
appreciate Julie.

Chelsey (01:25:39):
Yeah, she's a force.
All the women we talked abouttoday or with today are forces
as well in the industry, and I'mso glad we were able to connect
with them.
Yeah, it's been great and I'mso glad I know you, pam, just
write it off.

Pam (01:25:55):
I know I feel the same and I feel like all these ladies
have kind of spoke about, like Onumber one, diversity and, you
know, changing the way this, thewhiskey fabric, looks from the
outside.
I think that's important, thoserole models and those speakers
like seeing people who are likeyou doing the thing is important

(01:26:18):
.

Chelsey (01:26:18):
Yeah, it's powerful.
It's a powerful thing to see,subconsciously, Maybe you don't
even know it, but if youeventually you know you
consistently see that you'regoing to feel more included and
more comfortable in the worldperiod, I think.
But yeah, I'm glad we kind oftouched upon this topic.
I haven't only spoken too muchon it in a while, so I'm glad we

(01:26:39):
kind of touched back, Just base, you know.

Pam (01:26:42):
Yeah, just tap in with these issues.
that aren't completely gone,but you know things are getting
better and there's still work tobe done, so let's continue.
It's a great.

Chelsey (01:26:54):
I love the people in this fucking industry.
It's part of my.
I'm going to have to put a likea raided raiding on this
because I've dropped a few Fbombs, have I not?
I've got a.
Oh yeah, do you want to drop onreal quick?

Pam (01:27:06):
Oh, i've done loads already Oh yeah, you did.
Okay, well, just don't notice,because I've always done it but
constantly swearing, i know.
Well, that's just, it's notvery late.

Chelsey (01:27:17):
It's like a few dollars .

Pam (01:27:18):
Oh it's not, it's not shocking My pearls here.

Chelsey (01:27:21):
Okay Well, should we chat?
Should we go right back?
Let's go.
Let's go Revisit the Coleman.

Speaker 5 (01:27:28):
Oh the whiskey.

Pam (01:27:29):
Yeah, well, I've been kind of checking out all the way.

Chelsey (01:27:31):
Yeah, You've already.
you've finished yours.

Pam (01:27:36):
I've got two new people.

Chelsey (01:27:37):
Okay, well, first of all, i'm this thank you so much
for sharing this, and I you knowwherever your mom is out there.

Pam (01:27:42):
I hope she she can, she could yeah.

Chelsey (01:27:45):
Hi, hey mom, hey mom, thank you for giving this
whiskey life.
Yes, yes, you know it's openedup.
It's actually the I don't wantto say stringency, but it kind
of like it's mellowed down.
It's kind of rounded The maybeany kind of harsh corners a bit
after, after kind of letting sitfor the past hour don't you

(01:28:06):
think?

Pam (01:28:07):
Totally, it's almost sweeter now.
It's more catamal, yeah, it'ssettled into itself.

Chelsey (01:28:11):
It's found it's, it's found its footing.
So, yeah, that kind of sums itup, but I think, before we we
wrap up completely, we have alittle bit of, i guess,
housekeeping.
We have some announcements tomake, we have some things we've
been up to.
We haven't just been neglectingDram Fine, completely.

Pam (01:28:27):
No, we've been expanding into.
Well, you know, we have beendoing a few events here and
there, but we've, we've aimedbig this time.

Chelsey (01:28:35):
We're going big Go, big baby Go, big go, go, go go.

Pam (01:28:39):
That's what they say That's what they say.

Chelsey (01:28:41):
And we're doing it, but yeah, yeah, sorry about that.

Pam (01:28:44):
Yeah, We are hosting our well.
Actually, we should explainthat this was actually one of
our first major, major goalswhen we sat down and discussed
what we wanted to do with Dram.

Chelsey (01:28:54):
Fine, And we're fucking doing it before we feel ready
to do it, Just like just like wediscussed earlier, just like
was prophesized by the ladiesbefore us just now Yeah, we are
doing our own.
Say with me.

Speaker 3 (01:29:08):
Whiskey Festival, although it's not.

Chelsey (01:29:10):
So it's not.
No, that was.
That was on time.
I think we did it.
I'll edit it.
We're doing our own WhiskeyFestival.
It's actually a spiritsfestival because we want to kind
of welcome other spirits,because a lot of these
distilleries are doing otherthings as well.
Let's like share the love.

Pam (01:29:22):
But we're doing it Wait, take a break there.
But also because, no, that'snot the only reason we're
allowing other spirits there,because we want new people to
come.

Chelsey (01:29:32):
That's that's what I was getting to.

Pam (01:29:33):
Oh sorry.

Chelsey (01:29:34):
It's okay.
It's okay, let's go.
Let's do that again, because Iwas literally going to say that
I'm sorry.
To touch upon I was going tosay touch upon inclusivity.
We wanted to like that.
We're talking this wholepodcast.
Okay, let's just start from thebeginning.
Let's go from.
Okay, let's just start fromhousekeeping.

Pam (01:29:48):
Let's go from Whiskey Festival Okay.

Chelsey (01:29:50):
So what are we doing, pam?
We'll say it together It's aWhiskey Festival.

Pam (01:29:57):
And what's it called?
It's called the Street SpiritFestival by Trump.
Fane Podcast Yep.

Chelsey (01:30:03):
And it's called the Street Spirit Festival, because
we're not just doing Whiskey,actually We want to.
We want to bring in all spirits, not because, just well, i mean
, lots of these Whiskeydistilleries are companies, have
other amazing products we'dlike to show off, but to kind of
get back, tie into this wholeinclusivity, you know, bringing
in different demographics intothe Whiskey industry or just the

(01:30:25):
Spirit industry.
We wanted to welcome this, this, this.
We wanted this festival to beable to be accessible and
welcoming for everyone.
Maybe that it's not justWhiskey, because Whiskey can
still be intimidating for thosewho don't drink it, right.
So there'll be gin, there'll be, there'll be some, you know,
non-alcoholic cocktails.
There'll be a little bit ofeverything right, and what else?
can tell us a little bit moreabout it?

(01:30:45):
to Pamela, you've been workinghard, yeah.

Pam (01:30:48):
I've been working hard, Oh yeah.
Well, we are going to do a livepodcast on the stage.

Chelsey (01:30:54):
Yeah, that's going to be.
How do we do that?
How do guys come on right inand tell us how do it?
How do?

Pam (01:30:59):
we do it.
Anyone know.
My very talented cousin is alsocoming over from Scotland.
She, if you want to make meknow she, is a radio host, a
voiceover artist, which I thinkJulie should be.
It's failed, by the way.

Speaker 3 (01:31:15):
Oh yeah.

Pam (01:31:16):
And Julie get in here, Be your agent And she's also in a
band and stuff And she lovesWhiskey.
She's just back from the facialperforming with her band.
Really jiggered a bunch of thedisabilities.

Chelsey (01:31:29):
I love that.
I love the music.
I'd love it Really jiggered.
It's a great name, love it.

Pam (01:31:34):
It's a great name.
Yes, she's the perfect MC forour event, and so I'm really
excited that she's coming overfor it, And we've got some drag
performances happening, whichwe're excited about.
I also just think in general,it's really important to support
drag, especially right now, soI'm really glad that we're

(01:32:00):
incorporating that into it, andwe've got a couple of DJs that
are going to be playing as well.

Chelsey (01:32:07):
Yeah, so the streets spirits, the first annual, the
inaugural street spirit festivalfestival.
I've had too many whispers.
So the very first annual streetspirit festival is going to be
held on July 16th at Emmetton,alberta.
So if you are in the area youcan check it out, you can check
out our platforms, you canliterally to our event bright

(01:32:29):
page and please come buy tickets.
They're not very expensive,like 30 bucks, and you get all
the samples, all the fun.
And also it's in the summer,like I know, festival in the
summer.

Pam (01:32:41):
Hooray, we've got some really great sponsors as well.
Yeah, we've got plain FedEx.
We just got reflating thismorning.

Chelsey (01:32:51):
So we're excited to write that We've got some let me
Our big Glenmore and G's bridgeline distillery out of Calgary
We've got some internationalBoulder spirits Yeah.
Boulder spirits Yeah.

Pam (01:33:08):
Shelter point.
Empress Jen is going to bethere, which we love Westland to
.
oh yeah, and there's actually acouple more, there's more.

Chelsey (01:33:16):
There's more We haven't even announced yet.
Yeah, we'll announce the rest.
Yeah, oh, hanson Distillery tooBig up for Hanson Distillery,
another local distillery.
They're fantastic.
They just released their newRTD ready to drink.
I can't remember what it'scalled, i know, oh damn, but
anyways it's.
I've tried it.
It's really good.

Pam (01:33:32):
So it's going to be super fun.
We've also got like kind of acool lounge area for people to
interact with the brands.

Chelsey (01:33:39):
The Chive Lounge.

Pam (01:33:41):
Chelsea wants to call it the Chive Lounge.
I want to call it the ChiveLounge?

Chelsey (01:33:45):
Don't know why?

Pam (01:33:46):
Well, Rhymes with Live.

Chelsey (01:33:47):
Lounge.
I get it, I get it.
I think that's like you know,BBC's got their handle on the
Live Lounge.

Pam (01:33:52):
Yeah, so yeah, the Chive Lounge.
So I don't know, we'll justneed to get some Chive plants
and filter around.
I don't know, that's fine, sothat'll be really fun.
Yeah, and we'll be there.
We'll be there.
We're talking about just havinga great time and try not to
panic.
Trying to, trying to.
Yeah, not freak out, It's goingto be great.
I'm excited, Actually.
Anyway, it's going to be greatMe too.

Chelsey (01:34:13):
I'm excited.
It's going to be here before weknow it.
So yeah, so, guys, if you're inthe area, come down.
That'd be great, but otherwise,i guess that wraps up.
Should we just recall this?
Call this an episode?
We did it.

Pam (01:34:23):
We did it.
It was a good one.
I enjoyed it.

Chelsey (01:34:25):
Yeah, me too, me too.
So that wraps up episode.
Oh, eight of season three, we'dlike to obviously thank the
composer of our theme song Thisis the life, mr Stuart Bobbin.

Pam (01:34:43):
Make sure you subscribe to us wherever you get your
podcasts and follow DramFingpodcast on Instagram.

Chelsey (01:34:51):
Goodbye, i guess that's it, that's it, that's it.
Let's get out of here.
Here we go, all that and allthat.

Pam (01:35:08):
Did you feel my eyebrows splashing at you?
I did, i felt it.

Chelsey (01:35:11):
I felt it like a fucking laser beam.
Laser beam eyebrows right to mysoul.

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