From Rock Bottom to Recovery With Oliver

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Siobhan (00:09):
Right, let's do this.
All right. So hey y'all thisweek and ducking. Realitea, I
have my friend Ollie. What's up?
Ollie, Hello, how you doing? I'mgood. How are you

Oliver (00:21):
I'm pretty good, good.

Siobhan (00:22):
I'm a little nervous if I'm not, if I'm honest, yeah?
Why are you nervous? Um, becausewe haven't talked about any of
this stuff yet, yeah? And thatmakes me a little nervous. I'm
so excited and honored thatyou're here and that you're
willing to kind of share yourexperience with us, yeah? And to
kind of have a conversationthat's hard to have,

Oliver (00:39):
yeah, I'm very happy too. Yeah, I'm very happy to
have that with you too. Yeah,can I actually start off with
saying it was saying something?
Yeah, absolutely, please. So Iknow that. Well, okay, I mean, I
guess you were probably going tosay this about an intro, but you
know, I had, like, a lot ofyears of addiction, and when you
and I met, it was when I was Ihonestly, like, my memory of

(01:00):
things is not really very goodduring that time, unfortunately,
but like, I know I was goinginto, like, my lowest point
right, which, of course, is whatgot me sober. But, yeah, I don't
know. I know that when you and Imet, it was like during that
time. I know that I was reallynot like, who I really am. It

(01:22):
wasn't like a real, like, goodrepresentation of me, and I
don't like, I really have veryfoggy, like, sort of, like, just
in pieces, kind of like memoryof that of most of that time.
Yeah, I get that, but which kindof freaks me out. There's like,
a lot of black holes in mymemory, like in the timeline and

(01:43):
stuff which I like, I I justknow logically that I like. I
can kind of figure when thingshappen in what order, but I
don't actually remember it thatway, if that makes sense. And
but anyway, I know that I wasn'tlike a good person to myself,
nor to like you, or to mypartner Hannah, right? Or to

(02:04):
like my family or any or myfriends and everything so, but
yeah, I just want to apologizefor that, like right off the
bat. Oh so

Siobhan (02:14):
thank you. And also, I mean I really understand
probably more than you realize,because I have similar stuff.
When I was, I was an addict too.
I mean, I was over medicated,and I was kind of leaning on it.
And I have things that I knowhappen, because I have pictures
of me being there, but I reallydon't have a reflection of it
that was, like, withpainkillers. Like, yeah, I was
on fentanyl for three years, Oh,yeah. And I was on a bunch of

(02:36):
stuff, like, with fentanyl,right? So, like, there are times
that I was at things, yeah, andthen I was still drinking on top
of it, yeah? Like, yeah. That'sintense, yeah. And so there are
things that I like, I one of myfriend, oldest friends, I went
to her baby shower, and I know Iwas there because there's
pictures, and I have, like, thekeepsakes I have no recollection
of being there, yeah, it'sfreaky. And it's like, I've gone
to a couple of people in my lifeand been like, Hey, can you help

(02:58):
me figure out my timeline ofthat like, phase? Because I'm
like, I can't there's like, it'slike, you just said there's
black holes in that that I'm,like, unsure of, and it makes me
super uncomfortable, yeah, andit's hard. It's hard for them
when I ask those questions,because they I don't think they
knew how bad it was either,right? You know, because when,
sometimes when you're in it, youdon't know that you're in it,

Oliver (03:19):
yeah, especially when it's like a friend or like a
loved one in some kind of way,it's like, like, even if you're
not the, you know, I feel like,I feel like my loved ones, like
my my friends, you know, evenwhen they knew it's like, they
didn't always want to believehow bad maybe it actually was,
and I don't know, and I see thatkind of thing in other groups,
like other friends in there,yeah, when that happens, you

(03:41):
know, but, of course, but forsure, like, when you're the one
going through it, it's like, Imean, I don't know, I had like,
a whole, a whole bunch of like,weird, like, beliefs and
everything. And I thought I was,like, really just the shit and,
like, on top of everything atone point. And then then it was
weird, because then at othertimes, I, like, knew that I was
like, I knew that I was fullyaddicted. Yet I thought that's

(04:01):
just how it has to be for me.
And it's just gonna be that

Siobhan (04:04):
way, like you weren't worthy of more.

Oliver (04:07):
I don't even know if it was like worthy if, well, you
know, I guess it's kind of likethat, like a thing that I really
struggle with, with all thisstuff is, or what I mean is like
a reason that I know, a bigreason that I use is feelings of
like, I have a hard time fullyconnecting or fitting in. It
feels sometimes to like, Iguess, like mainstream society.

(04:31):
And I tell myself that a lotmore than it actually is a
thing, you know, right? Like, Itell myself that, like, I don't
fit in with like these people,kind of thing I other myself,
like heavily, and I'm a lotbetter about that now, but,
like, because really, like, itdoes not matter at all, you
know. But I, I felt that, like,in a lot of these different, um,
kind of, like, cultural groupsI've been in, you know, I Well,

(04:55):
do you want me to keep going onthis? Okay? But, uh, please,
yeah. So, like, so growing up.
So growing up first, I grew upin a really small town on the
East Coast, in Maryland that wasextremely, like, conservative,
like, a town and really small,like, it was a town of, like,
5000 Okay, and, and that's notwhere either. My parents are
from. I don't, I don't reallyknow exactly why we ended up

(05:17):
there, but my dad is fullyGerman, like, not a US citizen
or anything. Oh, wow, yeah,like, full accent and
everything. But then he, but hewas an alcoholic, and he was
really, really abusive, and sothen during my and my mom's
American, but she's from morelike the Annapolis area and and
she met my dad over in Germanywhen she was doing like an

(05:42):
internship for social work,because my mom was a social
worker anyway. So I grew up inthat town, but because I was,
like, the only person thatwasn't, like, pretty much born
in like, some small radius ofthat town, I was seen as, like,
the German kid, even though,really, I was raised very
American, and I sound veryAmerican, you know, yeah, yeah.
And, but

Siobhan (06:04):
were you born here?
Were you born? I was born. Youwere born in Germany? Yeah.

Oliver (06:07):
Sorry. Should I say that? Yeah. So, I was born in
Germany. I was born infootsburg, which is in Bavaria,
which is the largest state inGermany, like Bavarian hops and
all that, right? But, um, yeah,I was, I was, I was born in the
same city my dad was born andraised in. Oh, wow, okay, yeah,
which is like an actual city,not like a small town or
whatever, but, but anyway, um,yeah. So even though I was, even

(06:30):
though I was kind of alwaysdisconnected from my German
side, because that was my dad'sside, and he was, like, not
really, even when he was therein the picture, he wasn't, like,
really present emotionally andand all those kind of ways, like
a father should be. So yeah, andthen my parents separated, and
then I was kind of back andforth between the houses, but

(06:51):
that whole time, and that wasall through middle school, but
the whole time, like my peers,even though I never had like
issues with bullying, or I neverhad like issues socially when I
was a kid, okay? Like, I gotalong with everyone, but I still
got like other even though itwasn't in like, a malicious way,

Siobhan (07:06):
right? You just felt separated from them. Yeah?
People would, like, bring it up

Oliver (07:09):
because, to them, they never met anyone that wasn't
from like, that area of Marylandin particular,

Siobhan (07:15):
yeah, so you're just like an outsider from the
beginning, yeah?

Oliver (07:18):
And so I know that, like, I know all of that kind of
like feeds in and then. But thenI knew that there was, like,
something more that I wanted inlife, so I worked really hard to
get myself to college inBaltimore, but be able to make
like, I started working when Iwas 12 to try to save up money
so that I could kind of get tosomething else in life, right?
And then I used that money whenI entered college to help pay

(07:41):
for college, plus I already Ialso worked all four years of
college for the for, like, theresidential halls, doing
maintenance, which is kind of itwas like a way to pay for
housing all four years. But thatalso meant that I worked all the
time on top of school so butthat was like a way different,
that whole environment was waydifferent than, like, where I

(08:03):
grew up. But then after that,eventually, like, I kind of
moved all around, moved up toNew York City, and I did some,
like, traveling in LatinAmerica, and then eventually
came to California, to this Bhdat UC Berkeley, where it felt
like a whole nother otheringfrom like, how many, like, trust
fund kids there were there,right, you know? And I, I don't

(08:24):
know, like I when I startedlearning how much everyone just
had so much money from theirfamily coming in, because I, I
was so confused, how people wewere expected to live in, like,
the San Francisco Bay area offof this, like grad student
stipend of, like, 1000 somethingdollars a month, right? And I
was like, How are all these gradstudents not freaking out about

(08:44):
this? Like, I am, turns out, isbecause almost all of them have,
like, money coming in elsewhere,so it's not really a problem.
And I know there's some otherones, some other students that
didn't say I didn't but, like, Idon't know, you can't help but
kind of, like, feel it's almostan envy, you know, because it's
like, I'm, I feel like I'mhaving to, like, have a way
bigger hurdle just to do this

Siobhan (09:07):
financially. Yeah, you're struggling. And they're
like, chilling,

Oliver (09:10):
yeah, but, um, but yeah.
But then it, but then it'sweird, because then now, like,
nowadays, like, I'm like, sograteful for all, like, the
struggles I've been through. Andlike, I, in a way, wouldn't
change that for like, anything,but at the time, like, I know
that that's what really ledthat, and some things happened
in my personal life really ledto, like, me feeling just okay,
I can't handle this, so I can'tkeep feeling like I'm so

(09:31):
othered. So I'm just gonna,like, numb myself so because I
don't want to have to stopworking right? So I'm gonna numb
myself and try to because thatmade sense to me at the time,
like, I'm gonna just numb myselfthrough working and doing this
PhD, and I'm gonna have this PhDbefore the age of 30, was like,
my goal, right? But theneventually, you know, as I as I
know, you know, I had to take amedical leave of absence, and

(09:54):
that was four years ago now,right? And that was during my
fifth year of the PhD, whichreally. That fifth year, I like,
didn't really get anything donebecause I was, like, using all
the time. I was just high allthe time, like, teaching classes
and everything, which was like,such a shit show. But because

Siobhan (10:09):
you are when, when you went to college, that, like,
your undergrad, did you knowwhat you were going for? Like,
no, no, no. So I so I wasextremely intelligent. I just
want to kind of put that inhere, like, and because,
especially the last couple,like, week or so, you've been
here more and, like, hangingout, and I get to hear you
tutoring now, and, like, justhearing the stuff that you're
talking about is like, like,one, you know, your shit, like,

(10:32):
but you're also, like, great at,like, communicating that to your
students. And you it's been,like, really nice to see that
side of you, but I always knownthat how smart you were or are?
Well, I always wondered kind ofhow you got into your direction
of schooling.

Oliver (10:46):
Yeah. So, okay, so the PhD at UC Berkeley was in data
science, like an AI, my thesis.
Okay, so it's an AI applied toecology or environmental
science. So I was in theenvironmental science
department, but my thesis is thedeepening ecology with
artificial intelligence. So it'sall about AI just broadly
applied to ecology, but that'snot a very common thing. And if

(11:08):
you think about that, I've beenon break for four years, but
then did five years of the PhDprogram. That means I started
that nine years ago, which is,you know what happened? And nine
years ago, AI wasn't nearly asbig as it is now, and especially
not in environmental science. Soit's kind of an unusual thing.
And I pursued that partiallybecause it's unusual. But it all

(11:31):
comes back to and I don't have adegree in, like, my undergrad
isn't in computer science ormath or stats or any of that
stuff. It's in, actually,biology. And I pursued biology
because my dad, my dad, was outof the picture, like early high
school, and I was really closewith my mom and her mother, that

(11:52):
my maternal grandmother, whopassed away while I was an
undergrad, but she she shedidn't have like past, like an
elementary school educationformally, but she, she, and she
was from, like, very country,like West Virginia. But she
taught me a lot about birds andkind of, like environmental
things from not like an academiclens, like from a practical

(12:17):
lens, right? Yeah. Yes. Like,she taught me how to do, like,
backyard birding and, like,recognize bird songs and stuff
like that. And I was reallyinspired by that, and yeah, and
then I just really wanted topursue that kind of because she
instilled that, like, love ofnature in me. And then I think
it was during my freshman yearof undergrad, is when she had

(12:39):
her two strokes, which then ledto her passing away after, like,
a lot of months of it beingreally rough. And then I wanted
to kind of in her memory, topursue, like something even,
even like bigger than just thedegree. So I pursued, like,
doing research in thesedifferent labs at the at the
undergrad campus that I was at,which was at University of

(13:03):
Maryland, Baltimore County. Soanyway, which isn't like
University of Maryland's likebig school, it's like a just
another school there. So whatI'm trying to say is I didn't go
to like, a big name school, sothat that will lead later to,
like, my feelings about UCBerkeley, right? But anyway, so
then I started doing research inthese labs. And I got, and I
kind of did that three of thefour years of undergrad, like,

(13:26):
sophomore, whatever you call it,junior, senior, yeah, that kind
of thing, yeah. And so doingthat research with birds, I did
some stuff with, like, analyzingbird songs with, like, some
computer code and, like, somesoftware. So that was kind of my
first taste of, like, usingcomputers and math to do

(13:46):
something with, like naturedata. But then it wasn't until
my senior year of undergrad I Iwas pushing. I kept pushing for
like, a year up until then. Butthen I got the opportunity to
lead a project. And the projectI led was a mathematically,
mathematical modeling projectthat was estimating these bird
territories and how they likeshifted and changed over their

(14:09):
breeding season. Oh, wow, yeah,which I loved. And I like, fully
jumped into that. I ended up,like, presenting that work at a
conference, at an ornithologyconference, like bird research
ornithology that I won bestundergraduate research at, and
then met someone there that Iended up getting hired to work
with after I graduated undergradand kind of, like, all these

(14:30):
different things happen. Andthat was so like, preparing to
do that research for that, likeproject I got really into
programming, and the math andstatistics just kind of like on
my own, like getting into that,and that really quickly led to,
like, AI, or like machinelearning, and then AI as more in
general. And I just love that.

(14:54):
And like, something clicked inme that I was like, wow, you can
use, like, computer code. And I.
Like that as like a way to codecan be like an abstraction of
mathematics, which are like,which is our language of our
universe, right? So which meansyou can use computers to make
models of like, anything thathappens in life or in nature.

(15:15):
And that just kind of clickedwith me. So then I got really
into that eventually, like,taught myself all those things,
like all of the coding and theAI like, way more in depth, and
then got a job at a startup inNew York City doing machine
learning. Did that for a year,and then wanted to take all
those skills and bring them backinto like, the environmental

(15:37):
science, biology slash ecologyworld. So found a professor at
UC Berkeley that does that,reached out to him and said,
Hey, I want to meet you and dothat. I just kind of cold,
contacted him, and I puttogether, like a project that I
kind of saw some recent workthat came out of his lab. And
then I did, like my own. I madesome synthetic data that kind of

(15:58):
matched some of what they weredoing. And then I kind of did my
own idea of what I would do aslike an extension of some of
that recent work. And then Ijust made this whole project and
like a whole demo of that. Andthen I flew out to California,
met him and presented that, andhe was like, You should apply to
my lab. You should apply to thePhD program to work with me and
be in my lab. And then that'swhat I did, and that's what

(16:19):
happened. Wow, yeah, it wascrazy. Well, you

Siobhan (16:23):
took the initiative to, like, piggyback off something he
was already interested in, toget your kind of foot more in
the door.

Oliver (16:28):
Yeah, you got to show because their egos, yeah, which
is super smart, yeah, that's thething, yeah. Oh yeah. I'm kind
of in that like, position rightnow too, which we can get into,
oh, because you're back into theYeah. I'm trying to figure out
what Professor to, like, getback into the one that I really
wanted to work with, just emailme back, actually, on the way
here, like, 30 minutes ago, andsaid, like, I'm not in a
position to take students. I'mlike, but I'm just realizing, I

(16:50):
think I just need to presentsomething and make it clear to
him that he doesn't need to fundme. Like, I can, you can do that
yourself. Things are going wellnow, you know. And as you like,
alluded to, right, that I'm,like, doing a private tutoring
is like my main job, and alsodoing some contract work for
startups. And that's just reallyhas been so good financially
and, like, rewarding as a as ajob that I'm just, I think I

(17:13):
actually would be able to, like,fund myself for probably a year
and just finish the PhD out,which is a whole weight off of,
like, whatever professor, right?
And then also, you know, thereason I need to find a new
professor is because, during thefour year break, not to be rude,
but a lot of professors are onthe older side, and so the
professor I had retired in thelast four years, and so now,
yeah, I'm just in that position.

(17:35):
But

Siobhan (17:35):
I don't think that's rude. It's just kind of how life
happens. You know, when yourkind of whole thing is connected
to someone else. And especiallywhen they're in those kind of
professorships, they are kind ofon the older side.

Oliver (17:47):
Yeah. I mean, it takes a lot to get there, which I'm, you
know, I'm aware of that, whichis why I understand to, like,
stroke someone's ego, like theyreally worked hard to get to
where they are. So, yeah, I getit, yeah, yeah.

Siobhan (17:59):
And so, so So that's kind of where we met, is when
you were in UC Berkeley, youwere in your PhD program. You
were probably in what year threeor four. We met about four years
ago, maybe just about think

Oliver (18:13):
I don't, I don't. So again, yeah, memory thing, I
don't actually recall if I was,like, technically, a student
still, or, yeah,

Siobhan (18:19):
I don't know if you were either I because I think I
had, I think that was one of myflags, like so when we we met
because you started or you metHannah, and Hannah's your
girlfriend, and has been for thelast almost four years, and she
and I were working together andbecame very good friends, and
that's how we met. We met andkind of instantly liked each

(18:41):
other. I really just thought youwere, I mean, one, you're
handsome guy, but you're verysweet and kind and with you two
have a really nice vibetogether. Thank you. And I've
always thought that, yeah. Andthen there were things that were
kind of like little cracks andthings that made me nervous,
yeah, yeah. And I know that youknew that, because then we
started to have a little bitmore, like head butting and not

(19:03):
Yeah, kind of chilling,

Oliver (19:05):
yeah? Like, I know that, yeah. And that's the thing, is,
like the details of that, like,I really don't I just, I know
there was like issues, and Idon't really know, like, what,
oh yeah, exactly they were. Buta

Siobhan (19:16):
lot of that is not stuff like, I mean, you need to
rehash it. But just like, thelittle flags that I would see
and, you know, things that likebeing really late or not showing
up, or all of that kind ofstuff. Yeah, it's horrible. How
did you get into your addiction?
Like, how did you, did you juststart with, like, it's, I don't,
I don't think weed is really agateway. But, like, I mean, but
like, how did you Whatintroduced you to to your drug

(19:39):
of choice, right?

Oliver (19:43):
So it was, it's a little bit of a complicated road,
because, like, it ended up with,like, opiates and stimulants,
which, like a really horriblecombo. Specifically, it ended up
with, like, I never evenintended for it to be this way,
right? Like, which is a funnyquote to say about drug.
Addiction, but it ended up withlike, and I really say opiates,

(20:05):
because I wasn't even like,actually like, it ended up being
mainly fentanyl, because ofthings being cut with fentanyl
and all that, right? And then itjust and the price of it being
so much cheaper on the streetthan like, other things. But,
yeah, but anyway, so ended uplike with that, and then meth,
which I like looking back, thatwas the thing that I told

(20:27):
myself, like I would never do,like, in my head, like years
back, I was, like, very intoexperimenting with psychedelics
and all that. And I had been, Ithink that actually,
unfortunately, loosened me up tousing other drugs. But
specifically the drug thatactually was, like, my go to is
ketamine. And I was, like,always for years and years, that
was the thing. Like I was adaily ketamine user for at least

(20:50):
three years, I hope not more,yeah, and I had all kinds of
like issues from that which Iknow, I know ketamine super
popular right now. Art hasbecome, and there are some like,
very legitimate reason to like,I don't want to any any like
drug, any like well, anypharmaceutical, but any, any
drug, right? It kind of havelike negative things when, like,

(21:13):
misused or used way too much, orwhatever. Yeah, and I did have
some like body effects from it.
I do know that ketamine has somegreat positive effects with,
like, increasing neuroplasticityand helping with PTSD. I had
PTSD, and that's the reason Ipursued ketamine. I thought it
was something that could helpwith that, which it did. I was
having, like, night terrors andthings like that, and but I

(21:35):
wanted something where it wouldbe, like, I could take it and
then keep doing this, like,super high amount of work, like,
80 hours a week kind of thing,right? Which is what I was doing
with it for a couple years,like, during the PhD and all
that, like, before we met, yeah?
So, like, like my second year ofthe PhD, the third year into,
like, the fourth year, the youdefinitely got more and more.

(21:57):
But it was like, Yeah, I wentduring that time, it probably
went from like a weekly thing,or or twice a week kind of
thing, into, you know, like,every day, yeah,

Siobhan (22:08):
become like a functioning, a functioning
addict, yeah, right, like, thereand there are high functioning
addicts, like, there are peoplethat use different things to get
them the results. And it's like,at that time you probably had
your vice, and then slowly, yourvice takes over. Yeah? My
grandma used to always say, makesure you have your vice and your
vice doesn't have you Yeah, it'sa slippery tug of war. Yeah,

Oliver (22:27):
it is, yeah. Because, like, what you know, because, so
what happened with me, with withketamine, is that I started
having body issues after, like,I said, years of daily use,
like, I was having all kinds ofbladder issues and and just
weird, and like, all kinds of,what they call a cake cramps and
everything, like horrible painsin my body, like I went to the
ER, a couple times for it. Ipassed like, three kidney stones

(22:50):
in a couple yeah, that happened.
And then, because of all that,I, like, it really hit me that I
was like, I don't think I cankeep using this stuff, even
though, yeah, even though Iwanted to. But then what at that
point, though, psychologically,is where, that's where it really
kind of mean, like, messed me uppsychologically. It's like I,
like, felt I needed it sostrongly. So when I stopped

(23:11):
taking it, all these like, panicattacks came back, like, all
these things that I forgot werelike issues that I was having
because I was high all the time,which is where the opiates came
in, because I pretty much waslike, okay, and I understand
that, like, benzos are probablymore of a thing for panic
attacks, but, like, I neverreally liked how cloudy those

(23:32):
made me so and I don't knowthere's something about like
ketamine, kind of, in a way, canfeel a little bit similar to
opiates. I know ketamine doesattach to the same opiate
receptors, but not like, asstrong as opiates do, obviously.
Well,

Siobhan (23:47):
there's something about a Vicodin that just, I will tell
you, I love it, yeah. It waslike, yeah. I was when I, like,
some days when I didn't havequite as much pain, I was still
having Vicodin because it wouldhelp with my anxiety. It helped
with my mood. It made peoplemore pleasant to deal with.
Like, yeah. For the longesttime, I slept with a Vicodin on

(24:07):
my nightstand after I had gottenkind of myself clean, because I
needed to know that I could takeit. I needed to know I had that
option and that I didn't needit.

Oliver (24:17):
Wow. But like, it would scare you not to, yeah, it was

Siobhan (24:20):
scared me. It scared me to it, yeah, to not have access
to it, to not have the choice.
So, like, it was a way for meto, like, almost, kind of like,
Look my addiction in the faceevery morning and be like, Okay,
I can do this. It's right there.
I can take it. Like, I have awhole drawer full still, but
like, I don't want to be thatversion of me anymore, because I
wasn't my, like, I wasn't reallyliving I was, yeah, like, barely

(24:43):
getting off my couch. It wasbarely getting out of bed. I was
like, yeah, just a shell of whoI was, yeah. But, like, for the
long but to get to that pointwas really difficult, yeah, and
I'm not suggesting it's foreverybody, but like, even now,
when someone talks about it, I'mlike, Oh, I love. Just yeah,
one, you know, and

Oliver (25:01):
like, I, like, the truth is, like, yeah, yeah. I still
feel like, I still am very awareof how, like, good, like, either
ketamine would feel, or, like,multiple of these, yeah, like
other things, like, I feel, Ifeel like, for me, it was more
like, norco's, like,hydrocodone, but I think,
actually, that's very, I thinkthat might be the same thing as
Vicodin, but now I don't evenknow anymore, yeah, but I used

(25:21):
to know that stuff, like,

Siobhan (25:22):
perfectly, hydrocodones, I think are
Vicodins, and then the oxys are,like, Percocets, right?

Oliver (25:29):
Yeah, so, but anyway, yeah, no, I so I totally feel
you. It's just that I know,like, and I think, I think
you're saying, like, the samething, I think. But it's like, I
know where all that stuff will,like, lead me, you know,
because, like, and I just, I sawhow much I wasted my potential,
my time, my effort, and almostlost my life a few times because
all that stuff. And how, howquickly, like, I said, it went

(25:51):
from like, Okay, I'm intopsychedelics, and I don't think
there's like, an issue I everhave had with those, or even
have now, but then how that mademe feel, like, Okay, getting
high, just in general, was,like, more acceptable to me, I
think, right? And then ketamineis a dissociative, but feels
kind of psychedelic ish, yeah.
And a lot of people like, lumpit into that, but I don't really
agree with doing that for a lotof reasons, the kind of reasons

(26:14):
I'm talking about. But I thinkbecause of that, then that just
made me feel like, Oh, yeah. Sothere's nothing wrong with me
using that all the time, right,right? There's no limit to it,
right? It's not like, it's, Ieven told myself, like, oh, it's
not an opiate, it's not like abenzo, it's not like alcohol.
It's like, there's no problemwith it, but, like, there's
definitely a problem with itthat I had. And then, um, yeah.
And then from there, it's like,like, I said, then it's when I'm

(26:35):
that desperate, because of howmuch I psychologically needed
that drug to not be able to useit. It's like, then I was like,
okay, whatever. Just useopiates. But then I was so
fucked up on opiates that I waslike, I need something to help
me be able to still work, right?
That's what led to thestimulants, which I never was
going for, right? But that's howthat all happened. And then it's

(26:57):
just one thing led to another.
Then it's like, smoking fentanyland like, meth, right? Like,
Jesus and I went from, like, aPhD program at UC Berkeley, you
know, of all places, to like,yeah. So from the time that you
and I have met, it's been like,four years, so I've been sober
now two and a half years, whichI don't know if we said during
this, but two and a half yearsI've been sober, and it's all
been like positive, like, on theup and up since then, but then

(27:19):
going back four years to, like,that year and a half leading up
to two and a half years ago, itwas like, I am on the, you know,
kind of dropped out, quote,unquote, of like, this PhD
program at UC Berkeley that Iworked so hard to get to right,
right? And then I eventually,you know, left my, like, two
bedroom apartment I had on myown, and then had some kind of

(27:40):
weird, like, apartment with sometweaker people for a little
while, and, like, San Leandro,and then eventually, like, I
have, like, a broken down carthat I'm sleeping out of, and
that happened for months. Andthat's when Hannah and I
actually got back together,because she's been, you know,
with me through this. And webroke up for a while, which for
a lot of good reason on herpart, and then, but when she got
back with me, I wanted to keepup this illusion that everything

(28:04):
was fine, right? And so shewould come visit me, and I was
just in this whole, yeah, I'mjust in between apartments,
which I even told myself thatreally was what was happening.
But really I would get, like,hotel or motel rooms. It went
from hotel rooms then to motelrooms for like, a, I don't even
know how many months when shewould come visit me and stay

(28:24):
with me for a couple days orwhatever, but then I would be
back to living out of my car.
Like the other times it's like,and you know what I was doing,
like, when she wasn't around,then as I was going around and
just, like, stealing, like, themost ridiculous things, right?
Like, like, roof racks off ofcars and stuff, and just selling
them on offer up. It washorrible. Like, how, like, if I
have all this potential and,like, work so hard, if I'm

(28:46):
thinking I'm the hot shit, like,how is that what I'm doing,
right? You know? Like, it'sridiculous. And like, yeah, and
then, and I'm like, fine to talkabout this too, but yeah. So
then eventually, what that ledto is, and I got arrested for
trying to steal a car, justwhich was not even a planned out
thing, was just, like a spur ofthe moment, someone was doing,
like, Uber Eats, yeah, they lefttheir car on, went to drop off

(29:07):
food, and I just got in it.
While I was walking by and triedto take it, didn't even know
where I was going to take it to,didn't know what I was going to
do with it, but I was like, Ijust need money. I just need
money, you know? And like, atotal, like, finish thing, I was
definitely high. And, yeah, thenI got caught, got arrested,
hiding in a bush, and some ran aperson's yard and then spent six
months in jail, and that'sreally what got me clean. So
that's two and a half years ago.

(29:28):
Is when that started. So thefirst six months of my sobriety
were in jail, which washorrible, but, you know, it got
me clean. So it's all good,

Siobhan (29:37):
yeah? Well, yeah, that was like, your rock bottom,
yeah? Like, and it's like,different rock bottoms. Like,
everyone has a rock bottom. Somepeople have high bottom. Some
people have low bottoms. Yeah.
Like, I think I was lucky, like,my like, relative to going to,
like, jail for six months. Mylike, I just, like, woke up in
my life and was like, What thefuck like, I worked I haven't
done anything. Like, I barelyleave my house. I mean. Marriage

(29:58):
that's like, not helping me any,if anything, it's hurting me
more. And like, I, you know, butI had nothing to like, I had
nowhere to go. When I left my exhusband, I, like, called my
parents and was like, Can I comestay with you? Because I haven't
worked because of my injury, Ihave nothing like, I can't keep
staying in this because it's notgoing to get me any healthier.

(30:18):
Yeah, like, I got to figure outhow to live in pain so I can not
have prescriptions, right? Andall the doctors just kept giving
me more prescriptions. That wasall they ever offered me, yeah?

Oliver (30:28):
Because their whole thing is just to treat like a
thing, not like, yeah, exactly,right. So, like, they just don't
know what to do. I mean, I maybethey're getting better about
that. Sometimes I feel like,maybe that's the case. I don't
really know. And in the end,though, I'm realizing, like, you
can't really trust like anyoneelse, like you, like, only you
have to get yourself like, outof that, you know, like, because

(30:50):
the other thing is, when you'rein that, like, it's hard to even
tell, like, what is actuallygreat, like, advice, what's bad
advice, like, what's what peopleare actually looking out for you
or not like, but then in theend, only you can do it,

Siobhan (31:02):
right? Well, yeah, because it's you're like, you're
not the, you're not the realversion of yourself, right? Like
you're now a shifted version,because all that stuff in your
system shifts everything, likeall your hormones, your biology,
your brain chemistry, it likeshifts and twists the way that
you think. Yeah? So like you're,you're not even having clear
thoughts, and then there's like,that anxiety of always needing

(31:23):
to get your fix, or, like,trying to make sure that you've
timed when you take everythingright, yeah, so that you can,
like, get the shit done that youneed to get done. But then,
like, yeah, and it's like, okay,well, if I can, if I take this
now, and I can feel like this bythat time, and then this person,
you know, like, it's like, thisweird, yeah? Like, brain dance

(31:44):
that you're doing where youlike, spewing all this extra
time on just that stuff, yeah?
So then when people are talkingto you half the time, all you're
thinking about

Oliver (31:52):
is, yes, you're drug scheduling in your head, right?
Or, like, Are

Siobhan (31:56):
you showing symptoms of anything? Can they tell that
you're on and how to avoid it?
How do you Yeah, yeah, so it'slike nothing is ever real, yeah,
because you're so kind of alwaysinto someone, another place in
your brain, no, for

Oliver (32:09):
sure, it's horrible.
It's horrible and like, it'scrazy, how, it's just crazy,
really, how, I mean, I feel likeso many people say this, like a
cleaner and addiction orwhatever, but just how, like,
how like, softly, I guess iswhat I mean, that it creeps up.
Like, how quietly it like, yeahbecomes it takes over Yeah. And,
like, my brother says that. Somy brother, who does not use

(32:31):
drugs, like, I think I don't. Ithink he's tried weed, like, one
time it's like that, like, he'sreally it does not do drugs,
right? And I think that he toldme so. So anyway, for him, it
was hard to, like, understand,but he knew that I was he did
know that I had a lot of pain,like, emotionally from
childhood. Like, he's slightlyolder, he left the house three

(32:52):
and a half years, or, like,three years before I did, and in
that time, like that was when alot of things with my dad got,
like, really bad, and then mydad left during that, so he kind
of, my brother, kind of got outof that. And, like, really just
like, like, distanced himself,whereas, like, my little sister,

(33:12):
who's in like, three and a halfyears younger than me, I felt
like I had to, like, sort ofprotect her and myself, and I
didn't feel like I could leaveher right in this situation when
my dad was still around. So Ijust feel like I, like, tried to
face that head on, which was,like, the very worst thing that,
like, a son, or like, you know,a kid can do, like, with their
like, addicted parent orwhatever, right? And then, yeah,

(33:35):
and then that obviously leads toall kinds of weird feelings I
had later when, like, I'mmyself, and like, an addiction,
even though it's not alcohol,but like, how is it any
different than, like, how my dadwas acting, right anyway? But
what I was going to say is mybrother said that the way, like,
he's told me now that I've beenclean, he's told me the way that
it would seem, even though thissounded kind of, he said, like,
you know, it sounds kind ofcorny or weird or whatever, but

(33:56):
it seriously was like a sci fimovie where you had, like, some
kind of alien that like, tookover your brain, where, like,
you looked like you andeverything, but it's like, it
just was not you. It was like,it was someone else that was,
like, controlling your body. Andlike, I didn't really understand
that when he first told me, Ithink, but like, I totally,
like, get that now That'stotally what it's like. And
it's, it's so creepy to, like,not have control over yourself,

(34:19):
you know, it's, yeah, it'sawful,

Siobhan (34:22):
yeah, I've heard other people explain it like that, and
that's kind of how I, like, I'veheld on to that too. Is like, I
for, like, I tried. I reallydidn't think I was going to be
an addict. You know what? Imean? Like, I grew up with a
bunch of them too. I have nineuncles. I would say five of them
have been in the program, yeah?
And some of them should havebeen, right, you know, and
various different levels ofaddiction and various different

(34:44):
substances. So, like, I hadfirsthand seats for a lot of it.
So, like, I and when I firststarted getting prescribed and
stuff, I was like, No, I'mgonna, like, have one doctor
prescribe everything, right? SoI would go to like, six
different doctors in a week, andthey'd all try to prescribe. Me
something. And I'd like, no, no.
I want one doctor, like, send itall to my primary care. Like, I
wanted one person to kind ofhave my back and know, like,

(35:06):
what is interacting with what,and he knows what he's
prescribing. And, you know, Iwould check in with the
pharmacist every once in awhile, and then eventually the
pharmacist was even like, Do youknow how much drugs you're on?
Like, what's wrong with you? Andit was like, and I was like,
What do you mean, like, why isthat even your concern? Like,
hey,

Oliver (35:22):
you got offended. Yeah, I

Siobhan (35:24):
got like, was just like, and he was like, you know,
what's wrong with you? And I itwas just kind of the it was
probably his tone more thananything, because it didn't, it
felt more like accusatory thenand judgy than like, right,
concerned, yeah. And so Ithought it was doing everything
right, and still ended up beingtaking way, not I wasn't taking
more than I was prescribed, butI was prescribed way too. Yeah,

(35:46):
right. And so slowly it justtook over everything. And then I
was in that addiction, and I waslike, I don't know what else to
do, and how do I get out ofthis? And if I stop taking it,
then my body hurts so much morethat I can't even think
straight. I can't do anything,and I can't, I can't physically
move because I'm in so muchpain. I was getting like,
migraines three days a weekwhere it was, like, light
sensitive and, like, couldbarely hear sounds, yeah?

Oliver (36:09):
So, you know, I've never experienced migraines like that.
I don't think, I'm sure I wouldremember if I have, yeah. So
I've never had that. But theonly thing that I know is, well,
so like, the thing that I wasexperiencing, that I would say,
is kind of similar, is like Ipretty much was having when I
tried to get off of thesethings. It was like, usually,
night terrors through most ofthe night, three days, three

(36:31):
nights a week. So kind of like,the same sort of thing, right?
And then that would just, like,keep me up and everything, you
know, I'm like, not gettingenough sleep. And then, not only
that, but I'm like, so on edge,like, all the next day, right,
right? But terrible, yeah, itis. And it's just like, Yeah, I
mean, just taking your body,like, totally off balance, or,
yeah, off like, a balance, orwhatever, just really, yeah,

(36:54):
it's crazy. I'm not really surewhat else to say about it.

Siobhan (36:57):
Yeah. But you have, like, you, do you think that if
you hadn't gotten arrested, youwould, do you think you would be
cleaning and I know that's ahard question because, but i You
were so kind of deep in it,yeah, I don't know. Do you think
anything else would have pulledyou out? I

Oliver (37:10):
think I would have been.
I think I would be dead if Ididn't get arrested, to be
honest. Yeah, yeah,unfortunately. I mean, I don't
know if it's really unfortunate,like it's unfortunate that I was
that bad, right? I mean, becauseI know that, I know it's weird,
because I'm sure the way I was,there would be like glimpses of,
kind of my normal personality,or in certain ways, you know.
And also it was true that I kindof, especially for Hannah, I did

(37:33):
try to not use, I tried not touse when I, at least was around
her, right? So then I know thatshe then sometimes got these,
like glimpses of the real me,but then, I don't know, but, but
still, it was kind of, it wasstill this kind of like, I mean,
if you think about it that way,then like, that means, when she
saw the real me, it was alwayslike a hung over me, in a way,

(37:55):
right? Even though,

Siobhan (37:57):
even though the best version of you, yeah, it was a
very it was a closer version,yeah.

Oliver (38:01):
I mean, it was, like a way more emotional version, and
like a way more just, like, onedge and stuff version about
everything, but then, yeah, butno, so yeah, going back to the
question, though, like, yeah,no, I don't think I think that.
So, something that happened withme, also that I don't know how
much you know about this is thatwhen I said that I was, like,

(38:23):
living at so after the living inthe San Francisco, like the
after living in, like theBerkeley slash Oakland area,
having my own apartment while Iwas going to the PhD program,
then taking leave of absence, ormedical leave of absence, and
then, like I said, I then gotthat kind of weird apartment
that I was at in San Leandro. Ithink I was only there, like,

(38:46):
really, like, six months orsomething, or maybe less. But
during that time, and I was withthis, like, tweaker dude that I
was, quote, unquote, like,friends with, but really,
really, he, like, totally fuckedme over in a lot of ways. Like,
because when I got arrested, Istill left, like, a bunch of
things there. And that was,like, actually all my valuable
computers that I had built,right? All, like, these nice

(39:08):
speakers that I literally paid$4,500 for, and he, like, just
being a tweaker, like, sold themall for, like, next to nothing,
right? Like, to get his fix,yeah, like, literally, like,
probably $15,000 worth of stuff.
And that was, like, everything Ihad, right? And so when I got
out of jail, I found that out mebeing sober, like, and I
actually got there, he didn'thave the nerve to tell me, like,
that was a whole thing, wow. Iwas there with Hannah, actually,

(39:29):
and then I was just showed upbecause I thought, like, he
would have some of my things,and I could just pick him up,
right? Anyway, but yeah, so, soI'm getting off track because
all, yeah, I'm trying toremember, like, all these things
like that that have likehappened. But yeah, so during
that time though, I startedlike, kind of running with some
really shady, violent people,honestly, some people that were

(39:51):
like out of prison for like, itwas actually, it's actually some
people that were out of prison.
For what they were doing wasthey were, you know, with
firearms and everything, likerobbing coke dealers. That was,
like, their thing, but like,that's a dangerous, like, home
invasion, robbing, like, like,tying them up kind of thing and

(40:13):
all that. So I'm like,kidnapping and robbing, yeah,
and I'm hanging out with thesepeople because, why? Because
they've got the good drugsbecause of that. And I'm like,
you know, for whatever reason, Iwas like, trying to, like, like,
work for them and, like, buildlike, some kind of like
relationship there, and thenthey wanted me to do they
wanted, they were interested inme because of computer skills.

(40:34):
They wanted me to do some, like,sketchy things with, like, I
don't know, just some like,sketchy computer stuff. The
truth is, like, I was never evenable to implement any of that
stuff that they wanted me to do.
And looking back, it's actuallynot that difficult of things to
do, right? But I was just so,like, not good. I was like, not
functional. So I couldn't even,like, get that done. They ended
up turning on me, and they endedup, like, doing a home invasion

(40:55):
on me while I was at thatapartment. Wow. And they stole
all my things. The only thingswere left were those things that
then I those, like speakers andthose computers I'm talking
about. So those were the onlythings they didn't take then and
they they beat like the hell outof me, like I was, like, I was
all messed up, and they had gunsand all that so and then it was
a few months after that is whenI got arrested. But like, I

(41:19):
because after that happened, Ilike, fled, and that's when I
was living out of my broken downcar down in like, the San Jose
area, and, yeah, which is just,I don't even know why I was
there, kind of thing, but yeah,I was there. And then that's
when I got arrested, six monthsin jail down in that county. And
then when I got out, try to goget the rest of my stuff from

(41:40):
the guy who he didn't beat meup, the guy with my roommate,
but like, like, I said he hadsold whatever was left, and he
also didn't help in thatsituation. He just let it
happen, right? He

Siobhan (41:51):
was there. Oh, he was Yeah, I think I do remember
Hannah saying that you guys hadgotten robbed. But I think she
downplayed some of it, becauseat that point, like, there was
things that were happening. Sheand I had, like, some struggles
over, like, me being like,scared of her, kind of, yeah,
being in some of those placeswith you and, like, just was,
like, nervous, yeah. And I wouldhave been too. I was like,

(42:12):
Hannah, I just don't know.
There's something about him. Andshe's like, No, no, you just
don't know him that well. I'mlike, I don't know. And like,
yeah, you know. And then,because she didn't, we didn't
know you were using. I mean,there was glimmers of, you know,
yeah, we knew some stuff, butnot to the extent it was. And,
you know, I'm what, almost I'mwhat, 15 years older than you
guys, or at least I'm 15 yearsolder than Hannah. I didn't know
that, yeah. So, okay, you know,so I and I so I just have a

(42:35):
little a few more years under mybelt of like, yeah, seeing
things and being nervous and,you know. But I also always said
to her, like, if he's yourchoice, then I'm here for you,
like, and I'm here for always,like, let me tell you you can't
see him. I'm not going to be,like, fighting with you about
it. I'm going to tell you, like,I'm nervous, I'm nervous about
this, and I'm nervous you'resaying this is happening or
that's happening. Like, I justwant you to be aware, you know.

(42:57):
And then after you did getarrested and everything, and
everything. And she was like,Well, I'm going to get him out
of jail. And I'm like, Okay,well, just like, be cautious of
this, and watch for this. Andyou know. And then when you did
admit to her your stuff, it waslike, Okay, well, now at least
he knows we know why this wasall happening. Yeah, yeah. And
if he's an addicted like, thenthat's different. And, like, I
was like, but also that meansyou might not know Him the way

(43:18):
you think you do, yeah, yeah. Soto hear you say that, like, you
know that, you know that she gotto see glimmers of you, is she
did because she, that's whatkind of had kept her connected
to you.

Oliver (43:30):
Yeah, it was really, it's really wild that she's,
like, been around where a lotof, like, what happened, and, I
mean, I'm extremely grateful forit. And also, yeah, I mean also,
like, just how authentically sheshowed me love was totally a
thing that, like, snapped like,it just made things click in my
head, like when I was in jail,like in the because in the first

(43:53):
couple weeks I was there,especially the first week, I
definitely was like, feeding,like, I gotta get out of here. I
gotta, like, use whatever,right? And it was, like, such,
like a nightmare. And I waslike, Really, so I was detoxing,
obviously, and helped with that.
So, like, I'm like, going,getting, yeah, it was just, it
was just a nightmare, yeah.
Like, you get

Siobhan (44:10):
to jail, and then they're like, here's a soft
blanky and a warm cold or a coldcompress for your sweaty head
while you're detoxing. Yeah?
Just like, yeah, tough shit.

Oliver (44:19):
Yeah, no, I mean, and they did all kinds of, like,
weird, like, strip searchesduring that. I'm like, What is
going on, right? And, yeah, but,yeah, but, but anyway, like, I
just recognized, like, howauthentically, like she loved
me, and how really, like I caredfor her too. So, yeah. So while,

(44:40):
while I was in like that firstweek, or whatever, of jail, and
maybe, maybe it was really,like, actually, I want to say
was in that first week, butmaybe it was realistically,
like, kind of even in the firstmonth, I guess. But yeah, I
just, I just realized, like, howmuch I really cared. For Hannah,

(45:01):
which I did realize that before,like, when I before I got
arrested, going back when Iasked her to, like, get kind of
back with me, even though I wasstill using, it's like, it's
because I realized, like, howmuch I really did, like, love
her, but I was feeling all kindsof like negative ways towards
her, which really were all justbecause of, like, drug use,
because she was kind of what Iwhat I recognize now is what

(45:23):
happened, is like she was comingin between how much I was trying
to use so it was like I had allthese weird, like, feelings
towards her that were like, hardto because when I would actually
think about it, I'm like, Idon't know why I'm, like, not
liking her about this, this orthis, but like, looking back, I
realized it was that. Butanyway, so then when I'm like,
forced to be sober in jail overthe first few weeks or the first

(45:46):
month, or however long it reallywas, yeah, I just realized,
like, you know, I felt authenticlove from her, and it made me
feel like I can really just feelthat for myself and with her,
and I can have just a differentlife, really, you know that,
like, where I was going withthings, how I was living, was
not what has to be like, it cantotally be different. And then

(46:07):
that's what that really is, whatinspired me to get clean. She's
a huge, huge part of that. Andit's just so crazy that she,
like, looking back, it's socrazy. What, like, she kind of
went through with me, like, I'mlike, I can't believe some of
it, you know, yeah, because itwas, it was bad. A lot of things
were real bad. So, but yeah,like I said, I'm extremely

(46:28):
grateful, yeah, for

Siobhan (46:29):
her. But I think it also says something about like,
that you knew that you wereworthy of it in some way, right?
Even if it you don't see itthen. But like, I can hear you
saying it, and say, like,earlier you said, like, you
would try to not use when youwere going to see her, yeah,
right. So that's kind of wherethat mixed feeling comes in,
because now you don't want to beusing, you don't want to be too

(46:49):
high in front of her, but thenshe shows up. You want her
there, but then she shows up.
And you're like, now you have toleave so I can get high. Yeah?
So it's like, yeah, yeah. Andso, but you're not realizing it
in the time. And then you'relike, Wait, why do I want her
here? But now I don't want herhere. And like, I am happy that
she kind of never got into thatworld with you, because if she
did, like, you could have gonedown. Yeah, and I think that
happens to people, and they getsuper judgy about it, and it's

(47:12):
like, no, no, but it's an easyslide. Like, people get judgy
when, like, when, like, someonemight judge you harshly, or her
harshly for staying with you,because, like, you're an addict.
Why would she stay with you?
Well, you're still a human beingwho she has love for and she
doesn't want to just throw youaway because you're not It's not

(47:33):
throwing you away. Doesn't doanything, not for her, not for
you. You know, it's also like,if she was to go down that road,
people would then kind of blameyou or judge her for that, and
it's like, no, no, but like,that's a one, it's a decision
she would have made. But two,it's that slippery slope. Like,
if you would just introduced herand it got her the way it had
gotten you, like, it's notthat's the fault thing, I think,

(47:55):
is what I don't like whensomeone tries to, yeah, for
sure. I mean, because you didn'trealize how bad you were until
you were bad, yeah.

Oliver (48:02):
I mean, yeah, like the, you know, the in terms of, like,
fault, the only fault that Ireally like. So, you know,
people, people totally like to,I think it's really hard for
people to, like, accept howaddiction actually works, and
how common it is that it makesit so it's way easier. I think,

(48:24):
I think this is what happens. Ithink it's way easier for people
to just other, like people thatare addicts, just to, like,
dehumanize them, because, like,it's so hard to understand.
Like, how could that be like aperson, just like you and I, you
know, whatever, right, that'snow living this way, or, like,
seeing the way, you know, butthe truth is, like, Sure,
there's some people that arereally like out there in terms

(48:46):
of their like, how, I guess,connected to reality, their
their minds already are, but forthe most part, that's not the
case, right? The most part, it'speople that like, could be like,
quote, unquote, normal peoplethat are like, going to work,
going, you know, whatever. Buttrauma is, like, always the
precursor to addiction. Like, Idon't see it not being that and

(49:08):
in one way or another, you know,and it's just, it can be, I
don't know, but yeah, people dothat. And then, yeah, and then
what I was gonna say, what I wasthinking about, when you said
that thing about fault is, like,I think the only fault is that
humans have developed thesedrugs that naturally, like our

(49:28):
brains are like, it's not normalto have like, this amount of
these drugs, like in our in ourworld, right? So then, like,
when we get that huge, like,rush of dopamine or whatever,
serotonin, what, you know,whatever, whatever, all these
neuro chemicals are, right? Whenwe get those huge rushes of
that, it's like, Those aren'tthings that we evolve to, like,

(49:48):
have around, right? So it's likeour brains are like, Oh, that is
like an incredible it's like anorgasm, right? Kind of thing.
It's like, that's not, you know,our brains tell us get more of
that, right? So it's in any. Andin any way you look at it, is
actually this uphill battlethat's not anyone's fault, other
than people that have createdthese drugs, I guess. But also,
I get, you know, it makes sense,why they Well,

Siobhan (50:10):
yeah, I mean, half the reason we have such an opiate
and fentanyl problem, or afentanyl problem, is because of
the opiate problem, right? Thatwas created for people to get
rich off of, yeah, like, it'smessy, and now it's like,
there's so much documents ordocumentaries you can wash on
it. There's so much, like, realthings that they knew what they
were doing, and they just didn'tcare because they were othering
people and saying, like, but ifwe give it to those people over

(50:33):
there, we can make money, andwho cares what happens to them?
Yeah, it's

Oliver (50:36):
like, it's like, cocaine and the inner cities and, like,
the 80s or whatever. And like,every whatever was going on
with, like the government, Idon't know how much of that,
what exactly was happening,obviously, but like, whatever
was going on with likegovernment, or any kind of,
like, pushing of cocaine ininner cities, you know, and then
into, like crack cocaine and allthat. Like, it was kind of like,

(50:57):
I think a lot of the reasoningthere was probably that one. It
was like, well, because maybe atthat time before crack cocaine
was only this, like, reallyrich, like, little like, play
drug, or whatever, which, youknow, it still kind of has that,
but then, but then with crack,maybe they didn't see it turning
into that, I don't know. Butthen, when that wasn't inner
cities, it's kind of like, well,these are, like, you know, the

(51:17):
slums, the poor, of the poor,like, they're already, like,
killing each other, whatever,like, you know, bullshit like
that. But yeah, I feel like, Ifeel like that's the same kind
of analogous thing of, you knowwhat? I don't know what happens
with these, like, opiatecompanies or whatever. Yeah, I

Siobhan (51:31):
think it is very much the same. And I think the fact
that we let it happen again,like, is just because we're not
paying enough attention as oursociety and we're not holding
people accountable enough,because if, though, if you know
the Sacklers hadn't done all ofthat, the amount of addicts in
this country would be, I wouldsay half, if not more, yeah,

(51:52):
because almost everyone I knowthat is on like the fentanyl or
doing meth or doing any of that,most of them started with
opiates. Yeah, because OBS getharder and harder to get. So you
have to go to the street stuff,right? The street stuff, the
worse it is. It seems like theworse it is, the cheaper, or,
like, the cheaper it is,

Oliver (52:10):
yeah, the more accessible it is, honestly,
yeah. I mean, it's everywhere,and so much stuff, so much stuff
is really, like, cut with meth.
I mean, even like Molly and MDMAand all that, right? It's like
party drugs. It's, it's forpeople that don't do that,
right? Like, if they take, youknow, if they eat, like, a dose
of meth or whatever, then yeah,they're gonna be like, Raven for
12 hours, you know, like, ah andall that. But yeah, and

Siobhan (52:32):
sometimes one hit of meth is enough to set off your
addiction. Yeah, it's

Oliver (52:37):
crazy. Yeah, it's so strong it really is. Yeah, it's
crazy strong

Siobhan (52:41):
and it's scary, how prevalent it is, like, and how
many people, like, I went out ona date once with this guy, and
we, like, went to for a walk,and we were, like, hanging out.
And he was like, you want tocome back to like, My place is
around there. We'll, we'll swingby, I'll grab something. We'll,
like, go grab food. Like, allright? And it was going like,
well, you know, for a firstdate. So we go back to his
place, and he's like, Ah, youmind if I smoke? And I was like,

(53:02):
No. And I just assumed he wastalking about weed, yeah. And
dude brought out, like, a littleglass. Oh my. And I was sitting
there, I turned around, and Iwas like, he took a huge hit.
And I was just looked at him,and I was like, that's not weed.
Like. I was like, I thought youwere doing a DAB or something.
And he was like, Oh no, he blew.
And I was like, is that meth?
And he was just like, yeah. Whydo you want something? I was
like, I gots to go, like, yeah.
And, I mean, I guess good on himfor putting it right out there.

(53:25):
But I was like, What the fuck ismy life like? And I would have
never pegged him for a guy thatsmoked meth, yeah, I know it's
crazy. I just was like, and hewas just so casual about it,
yeah, that I was like, you know,you should hide that, right?
Like, yeah, that's crazy. I wasjust like, and I was just like,
all right, I got like, this isnot I can't like, yeah, thank

(53:47):
you.

Oliver (53:50):
Yeah. It's wild. You know, it really is like, yeah.
It really is like, everywhere. Idon't know. And I feel like it's
um, yeah, I don't know. I don'tknow if this is the case, but
yeah, I feel like it is, like,just more and more available.
Like, you know, not just meth,but, like, all these kind of, I
don't know drugs. And then,like, on one hand, I'm really
despite all this stuff with methat happened with addiction and

(54:13):
now, like, being sober and allthat, I do think that I don't
like the I don't like that drugsare illegal. I don't like that.
There's, like, criminalizationof them, because I don't see how
that's helpful or makes sense,but, yeah, but then at the same
time, it's like, I don'tactually think that people
should be maybe, like, doingthem as much as they are, in a

(54:35):
lot of ways. And, you know, thenwith that, it's like, yeah, I
don't know, like, there, Ireally now that I've gotten
clean and I'm I'm back to beinglike, perceptive, I guess, and
everything. It's like, I'mseeing a number of people that
really are, like, totally inlike, an addiction, but I know
that they're not like, that.
They have not like, acceptedthat that's what's happening.

(54:58):
Like, they're not aware. Of it,or at least in denial of it, or
whatever, and they're like,fully functioning and
everything, like we were talkingabout before, and, yeah, and
it's just, it's just reallycrazy, like, How selfish it
makes you, like, even the bestintention, even people with the
best intentions. It's like, likeI said, when those, when those
things are so strong and yourbrain is then just, like,

(55:19):
telling you, like, get more ofthat. Get more of that. It's
like, it just it forces you tobecome this, like, at least in
some degree, like, this selfish,like, person. You know, it's
crazy. It really is, like, socrazy,

Siobhan (55:31):
yeah, because it shifts who you are. It's like your
brother was saying. It's like analien takes over your body, and
it's like you get glimpses orglimmers of you, but it's that
addiction has is now running theshow. Yeah, and I think you're
right that people don'tunderstand it, and because they
don't understand it, or I think,like, in some of my own things,

(55:52):
I think it was, I didn't think Icould be one, you know what I
mean, like, and even sometimes Ihave a hard time saying, like,
Oh no, I'm an addict. Like, I,no, totally. I still have a hard
time. And I grew up going toEllen on meetings and going to
AA meetings and, like, I grew upadjacent to that world so, and
to still say it now it kind ofgets caught in my throat a
little bit, yeah, and I thinkthat it's scary to think I could

(56:17):
be one, and so people don't wantto like one. I don't think you
should ever label someone elsean addict. Like, I don't think
that's just that's your kind ofrole. But, like, I think people
don't want to talk about itbecause they're one, they don't
understand it. Or two, maybethey're scared of it that they
they know and understand howfast they could slide right? So
it's easy to kind of other thosepeople too, because then you

(56:37):
kind of distance yourself fromit. Yeah. No, yeah. Like, I
don't talk to those kind ofpeople, like, What do you mean?
Yeah, no,

Oliver (56:43):
no, exactly, No, exactly like that. Yeah, I think that. I
really do think that happens allthe time. Because, yeah, I mean,
just like, there's, there'sthings that are, I feel like
it's more obvious with, I mean,to feel like that Feeney niche
of like doing coke, and thenfeeling like I need to do more
of that. The truth is, though,like, I feel that strong with

(57:04):
ketamine than I do with cocaine,and I mean, and I've done plenty
of both, but I way, prefer like,ketamine, and it makes me feel
like I have absolutely to domore. Yeah, you know, it's like,
there's no, like, controlling mewith that. But what I'm trying
to say is, like, you do that,actually let me, yeah, so to go
back, it's like, then that's sowild that if that really feels

(57:24):
that much stronger for me, theremust be other people that it
feels that much stronger. HowMoorish it feels like, like
needing more. I mean, that'swhat I'm not trying to say, more
like dark, I mean, like needingmore,

Siobhan (57:34):
right? Like the theme for it, yes, if you could
understand that for what youlike, but so you can understand
what it must feel like for them,yeah? Or if you got, kind of,
you wrangled that monster, butyou can understand how hard it
was and how hard it could be,especially if you're not going
to admit it, yeah, like thosepeople that you're saying are,
you're like, well, they're highfunctioning, so it's harder for

(57:55):
them to admit that they're anaddict, because on paper, kind
of, they look like they're doinggreat, yeah? But then when you
look at them and you're like,oh, that person's like, half
distracted because they'retrying to figure out where their
next fix is coming

Oliver (58:07):
from. I will tell you I absolutely believed that. And I
think I even, like, had thenerve to say this to my mother,
my mom at one point that I saidthat. I know I said it to myself
into like, people, like, I don'tknow who, how many people? But I
know I said this out loud, and Ithought it plenty of times that
I was as successful I was withgetting into this PhD program

(58:29):
and teaching myself programmingand all this AI work because of
drug use that I wouldn't havebeen able to get there without
it. So the truth is that I wasthere despite using drugs. Like,
I will say that I did get a lotof creative ideas from different
like LSD and like mushroom tripsand like things like that. But

(58:50):
like, that was only because Ialready was going that path and
was, like, seeking that in away, right? And like, it's also,
you know, who's to say that Iwouldn't have gotten that much
like creativity and, like, flowstate kind of things out of,
like, you know, doing intensiveexercise, or, like, going on
trips, or just new places,right, right? Sure, like, I
mean, yeah, or like, meditatingevery day, which I did used to

(59:11):
do, right? And I'm kind ofgetting back into that now
again, but which I'm very happyabout. But anyway, my point is
that, like, I think, like,psychedelics are a whole nother
story about this, because, yeah,they don't have all these
negatives with, like, societalharm and body harm and all that.
But like I said, they also,like, in a way, they get
glorified, just like any drugcan they get almost like,

(59:33):
praised as being like saviors ofpeople, right? And, and I'm all
like, I really, I really thinkvery highly of them, but like, I
still totally like, see that aslike, an issue. And like I said
with me, they just getting, youknow, tripping and everything,
which is definitely like, waydifferent than, like, being on
opiates or whatever it just, itjust totally made me feel like

(59:55):
it's acceptable to be, like,kind of changed in that way,
right? Like. Subconsciously. Andso then it made it like, yeah,
it just totally, I know thatopened me up to be way more and
more, like, open to, you know,eventually doing meth, even
though, how do you go frompsychedelics to meth? Well, I
live that how you go there, andit's not direct, but, like, it

(01:00:16):
totally eventually happened. Um,yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that
part's like, real crazy to me.
But, well, I

Siobhan (01:00:22):
think it's too because we put like, I, if I was to,
like, go back in time, Iwouldn't put mushrooms and LSD
in the same category that Iwould put, like, Coke and, yeah,
Molly and or mvma, you know? Ithink those are, they should
have been kind of delineated along time ago as like, because
we categorize them in the sameway. But they are very different

(01:00:46):
substances. They have verydifferent effects, where, if,
like, we'd kind of kept theplant medicine to the side, and
then we had, like, hardcoredrugs, I think that that kind of
bridge wouldn't be as kind ofbuilt for you to go from like,
Oh, I'm doing kind of mushroomsthat are illegal anyways, yeah,
why not try this thing like, Oh,if these are illegal, but they

(01:01:07):
do all this good stuff, yeah,maybe all this good stuff over
here, yeah, no. Like, and Ithink that's where that kind of
bridge comes from. So I can,like, I think a lot of people
kind of think they can't berelated, but it's because we
categorize them together. Yeah,that your brain is like, oh,
it's actually, like, almost,like, a one for one, they're the
same bad thing, yeah?

Oliver (01:01:27):
Like, if I'm looking at the scheduling, like, I would
get just as much time if I gotarrested for LSD as, like, this
other thing. So, like, yeah,it's the same. But

Siobhan (01:01:35):
maybe the other thing, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Like,
maybe the other thing isn't asbad as isn't as bad because it's
in the same category as LSD, andLSD is great. So like, I think
that's how you kind of get thatreasoning, yeah,

Oliver (01:01:47):
totally, totally. That makes sense to me. No, yeah,
totally. And like, yeah. Andthen, and then it just it, like,
I know it added in that, that,like so many people that are in
the psychedelics are intoketamine, and they just kind of,
and they say it has psychedelicproperties, right, right, which
I do get. I mean, like, you gointo a K hole, there is very
trippy things that happen, butit's definitely different than,

(01:02:09):
like, yeah, the mushrooms, LSDor DMT or, you know, things
like, or like mescaline, thingslike that. But, um, like, I've

Siobhan (01:02:16):
tried ketamine, and I don't really enjoy it, and I
don't think I've ever hit a Khole, because I've never been
adventurous enough to try that,yeah, because I haven't been
doing it in like, a, you know,doctor's office setting. It's
not where I was doing it. I wasdoing it out, like, partying and
stuff, and I was just like, Idon't, I don't want to
disassociate, like, I think,because, and that's kind of a
personal preference, right?
Like, I disassociate already todeal with the pain that's in my

(01:02:39):
body. So I'm always slightlydisassociated, so I'd rather
have something to bring me back,yeah? And so, like, the thought
of, like, being further, kind ofaway from reality, I'm like, No,
I don't, I don't like that,like, it feels less controlling.
Like, yeah, people that are in Kholes talking to me for like, 25
minutes and then not remember,they even saw me, right? Yeah?
So I've always been a littlekind of skittish about it, yeah.

(01:03:01):
And I'm kind of happy that Ihave been and happy that, like,
Okay, well, I dip my toe in tojust kind of understand it a
little bit, yeah. And I wouldtotally do it in a doctor's
office. And, you know, see howit works with, like, a trauma
specific thing, yeah, because Ihave a lot of trauma stuff in my
life that I've never dealt with,and I, you know, through
therapy, keep trying. And thinkthere are things that I'll touch

(01:03:21):
and there are things that I'mlike, I don't really need to go
back into that, right? Like, I'mokay with just being like,
that's a chapter that I can justkind of acknowledge happen, but
I don't have to work through it.
All right, yeah. But sometimes Ithink, like, Oh, if I was going
to do a ketamine treatment, whatwould I kind of ask to go
through? But I'm like, I don'talso know, if I want to even

(01:03:42):
open it up, yeah, right. BecauseI think there are some things in
your life that you can just kindof put in that box. I think
there are some things you can't,you know, there are some things
that come up, like you weresaying your night terrors, like,
there are some things you haveto process, and there are some
things that you can kind ofjust, I guess, shove down, yeah,
I don't know if that's reallyhealthy, like, we'll check the
therapy, yeah.

Oliver (01:04:01):
I mean, I Yeah. I mean, I feel you with that, like,
yeah. Like, you know. So it's afunny saying, but there's no
free lunch. So even if, like, soeven if you're able to use
something like ketamine to thenaddress things that it's just
really difficult, bordering onimpossible to address otherwise,

(01:04:22):
it's like, it's not, like,there's not going to be anything
that's going to come from thefact that, like, you did that
though, like, you know, like, Idon't know there's, there's,
yeah, it's, it's not as sideeffect free, you know, as I feel
like it's maybe portrayed to be,or that people want it to be. I
mean, it would be, yeah, I mean,I guess that would be an amazing
existence, right, if, like,there was no repercussions to

(01:04:44):
many things. But the truth isthat there is, you know, and
when you're changing yourbrain's chemistry, and even if,
in science doesn't currentlyknow all the ways that it
affects our brains, like, Iknow, first through experience,
that like, it is definitely,like, changing, like, how I
think, and, you know, like, allthis stuff we're talking.
Talking about like in the sameways that like like in different
ways, but to the same kind ofdegrees that even like math or

(01:05:07):
opiates can like, change, like,how much how you are. Like, I
totally was, like, a differentperson using, like, ketamine
every day and and, like, I was adifferent person like, in the
later, like, kind of year orwhatever, of using it than how I
was when I first started usingit, for sure, and it was a
different experience. Like,absolutely, which is weird, you
know, it's like, how it's kindof weird to think, like, how is

(01:05:29):
that actually the case? But itjust is right,

Siobhan (01:05:32):
something that was helping you and getting you kind
of to your goals is now takingall the stuff you've worked so
hard away. Like, how can thatone substance be responsible,
kind of in your brain for both,yeah, right, exactly like you
give it credit for helping youto get some of those creative
ideas and workflow states. Butit's also the thing that made
you have to take a leave andkind of lose all the things that
you're working on, yeah?
Because, yeah, it's like, thatone thing shouldn't be able to

(01:05:54):
be both things, yeah. And that's

Oliver (01:05:57):
what I mean about, like, the free lunches, like, as,
yeah, it could have, like,great, beneficial things. But
can you actually, like, Is yourbody or mind or whatever, able
to actually, like, put aconstraint on it? And the truth
is, like, I can't, you know,like, I, even if I can at first,
eventually, like, it's going tolead me to, like, using every
day. I know it, you know. I justknow it. And so I just can't do

(01:06:17):
it, you know? And, yeah, um, soI don't know, you know, I don't
know, you know, I don't know ifyou know this other thing
either, though. But during my,think it was my third year of my
PhD that I, I was married, andthen I got separated from
someone, but she, she was and Iknow at first, when Hannah and I
were together, I was talkingabout her like, all the time.

(01:06:39):
And it's weird, because I don'teven remember doing that. Oh,
really, yeah, but I guess I wasall the time, and I believe her
that I was all the time. Oh, Iknow about her from you, yeah,
right, but I don't I. It's like,I never really, like, talk about
her much now, and like, becauseI don't know why I would, and I
don't know why I was, I was justso, so, like, that's the thing
about those about, like, a druglike that that helps with
trauma, is like, when you overdoit, I feel like it does this

(01:07:02):
thing where then you actuallyget stuck in the trauma and you
don't go anywhere. So eventhough, like, I Yeah, you know,
because it's like, even thoughat first, like, the ketamine
helped me kind of get throughsome stuff, like, then with just
doing it over and over, it'sjust like I got actually sucked
back to, like, stuff I was usingit to help me with, and I never
got out of it, I was, like, somuch weaker, like, more, like,

(01:07:25):
bothered and everything by like,things that happened in my
childhood with my dad, andthings that happened, you know,
in my early 20s, or, I guess,like, mid 20s with this ex wife
of mine that I had and and thatwas all Okay, so I'll just touch
on that. So she and I wereexperimenting with, like,
psychedelics and stuff and kindof like raves and that whole

(01:07:46):
scene together. We were bothfrom the East Coast, but then we
moved out to California becauseI got into that PhD program, and
then

Siobhan (01:07:56):
so she moved out with you from Maryland. Yeah,
slightly delayed.

Oliver (01:07:59):
I think I was out here six months before she was or
something like that. Again,like, I don't remember exactly,
but it was something like thatshe finished her undergrad in
New York, which is why I livedin New York City for a year,
because she was finished. Thatwas her senior year of
undergrad. So I just moved upwith her there, and then I got
into this thing at UC Berkeley,and you know all that. But

(01:08:20):
anyway, so we were livingtogether, and then, like, I
said, we, like, kind of likeexperimented and stuff like
that. But it was a lot morelike, kind of bordering on,
like, partying and stuff. Butthen eventually that's when,
like, the ketamine, like, kindof came up here and there. But
then what actually happened is,while I was, I think it was
during my third year of my PhDwhen I was like, studying

(01:08:43):
intensely for my qualifyingexam, which is, like, it's a
three hour exam that's just youand four professors. It's like
the most important exam that youhave for that whole PhD. And I
had to study 30 differentscientific papers from each
professor. So 120 total that.
And I didn't have any notes oranything, but they can just

(01:09:05):
grill you on questions the wholelike, yeah, they grill you on
questions for like, two hoursand 15 minutes. The first 45
minutes you have to present yourwhat you want to do for your
thesis. And they like, pick itapart and the same kind of
thing. So it's almost like, whenyou defend your dissertation,
it's exactly like that. But it'slike, at least in that program,
at least in the department I wasin, or am in, it's like, front
loaded, okay, as in, the actualdefense is just like a talk that

(01:09:29):
you give at the end, like theymake

Siobhan (01:09:32):
sure that you can do it before you even start it. Yeah,
yeah. Exactly that makes sense.
So

Oliver (01:09:36):
and it's so intense, right? And like, and people,
like, take like a wholesemester, like grad students
take, like a whole semester toor even more, to just prepare,
like months and months, just toprepare for this thing. So I had
some drama that happened with myPI my professor I was working
for because I had all thesecomputer skills, but in an
environmental sciencedepartment, he was really happy

(01:09:59):
that I was able to. Then on theside to kind of do some work to
help with the software that hewas trying to build. It's like a
side project. When I told him Icouldn't do that because I
needed to prepare for thequalifying exam, he got little
revengeful, or like a littlepetty, and he took my funding
from me, like two weeks beforethe semester started. So then I

(01:10:19):
had to find a teaching job tohelp, because you have to either
have, like a research grantmoney funding or you have to
teach that funding, right? Andhe was giving me the former, but
then he took that away from me,like just to be petty, and yeah,
and then so I had to get ateaching job. So even though
usually people just prepare forthis exam. I also had to teach a

(01:10:41):
class while that was allhappening, and so I was doing
easily, like 12 to 14 hour days,right? Like every day, weekends,
like whatever. Then when I wouldget back home, that's when some
stuff happened with my ex wife,where she I don't know exactly
like, what happened, butsomething, something happened,

(01:11:03):
and she had this issue with hereye, and she couldn't work for
like, some months. She had toend up having, like, I think, a
surgery that fixed it orsomething. But it was this whole
like, weird thing, and she,like, really freaked out about
that. And I understand, like,she had, like, constant double
vision. Must be, like, scary ashell. But, but, and because we
were experimenting a lot, likebefore, I started studying for

(01:11:25):
this qualifying exam, because Ireally, actually took a break
from, like, drugs while I didthat, right, but at least for
the most part, right? But then,but, because I was, like,
wanting to do all this, like,tripping and all that stuff
from, like, the years leadingup, I ended up having this big
jar of, like, Xanax bars in caseI ever, like, had a panic during
a trip and needed it. I think Ionly ever, like, use, like, a

(01:11:47):
half, like, or something of oneof them, but, and it was like,
actually, like 100 of them, andthat I got, like, illicitly, but
I just had those anyway. So thenI had those, like, back, like,
not in a normal place I sawevery day, right? So it turns
out what was happening is thatshe was going through those and

(01:12:08):
using them, and I didn'trealize, because I was gone all
day studying for this exam,like, every all day, every day,
for weeks and weeks, months andmonths. But then she also turned
out, which I didn't I wasn'tdoing coke then. And actually,
I've never really been that intohaving, like, Coke. It's never
really been my thing, even whenI was using but she was getting
Coke, I think from we had afriend at the time who was a

(01:12:32):
dealer. So very obvious, theyvery easily could have been
doing that. And the reason Iknow that is because, like, she,
I would get home and she wouldbe, like, on these it was, it
was like, she was benzo out, andthen also, like, on a stimulant.
So it was kind of like back andforth, like, between these,
like, weird, like, states, andshe ended up becoming, like,
really abusive. So she attackedme a bunch of times, like, just

(01:12:55):
all this weird stuff happened.
And I was, like, in the moststressed I've ever been in as an
adult. Well, besides, I guesswhen I was in jail, but it was
one of the most stressfulthings, like studying for this
exam. I ended up passing an examand all that. But like, yeah, I
have like, scars on my armthat's that are from her, like,
all this stuff happened andthat, like, brought out a bunch
of like trauma that related tothat just associated with, like,

(01:13:18):
how my dad was when I was a kid,right? Because he chose alcohol
over being like a loving persontowards me, and I was begging
with my ex wife to not keepusing like, Well, eventually I
found out that she was like,just doing all that while I was
gone and she got in trouble withher work. They ended up like,
doing a drug test on her, whichis how I found out she was doing

(01:13:41):
cocaine, like a new substancehappening, but I didn't know
until then, which was monthslater. Anyway, that part that
was all crazy, and I don't thinkyou know, maybe much about any
of that. I don't know, but thatall happened, and that is
actually it was, like after.
That is when I kind of snapped,and that's when I went into,
like, everyday using that wasyour

Siobhan (01:14:00):
catalyst, it's because you probably dated someone that
was, like, your dad, like, wedate, yeah, and then you married

Oliver (01:14:06):
six or seven years or something, and like, I realized,
like, wow, I'm with, yeah, I hadthis realization that I was with
the same, like person. I was,like, with my dad, but like, in
this relationship, which is soweird, but I know, like, that's
how it goes, and that's actuallywhen all that stuff happened,
shortly after, is when I had myfirst overdose. So how many
times did you overdose? I thinkI've overdosed three times. Wow,

(01:14:28):
pretty sure. Yeah, that was thefirst one. That's scary, yeah,
it's horrifying, yeah, but,yeah,

Siobhan (01:14:35):
but we're glad you're still here. Yeah, I am too. And
yeah, like you said a littlewhile ago, you've been clean now
two and a half years. So, like,yeah, maybe Jill helped you get
there, but you've stayed therebecause of you and your hard
work, yeah, for sure. Like, andnow you're back on track with
your back in your school. You'refiguring out your PhD program,
yeah, you know. So, like, youkind of fell off course. Most
people might say, yeah. Like,you write it yourself, you know.

(01:14:58):
Like, you got yourself down. Butnow you've gotten yourself back.
Yeah,

Oliver (01:15:01):
I've been trying very hard, like, every day, very,
very hard, yeah, and I, and I'mseeing it like, Yeah, I'm seeing
it slowly, like, for sure, like,I'm doing like, better and
better, and, you know, like,emotionally, I don't know,
psychologically, spiritually,like, financially, school wise,
or whatever. So yeah, yeah, Iappreciate that. And I am,

Siobhan (01:15:20):
yeah, yeah. It's really nice to see it. And you've done
a lot of it on your own, whichis hard, like, yeah, and that's
not, it's not an easy road. It'snot a lot of people have a hard
time doing that. And, like,yeah, you've done it, and you've
done it with, like, a lot ofgrace too, for yourself, which
is nice to see, yeah, like, andyou've been trying to make your
mends and do the things, and,you know, be right by all,

(01:15:41):
you're the people that you love,and that's a huge like, it's
amazing to see, yeah? Like,thank you. I'm really hard.

Oliver (01:15:49):
Yeah, so hard, really, but, yeah. But I just feel like
it's so necessary. I don't knowit's like, something about that.
It just feels like it's so scaryto, like, reach out to someone.
Like, like, my best frienddidn't talk to me for a long
time. My best friend, Quan,like, he didn't talk to me for a
long time. And like, and I neveruse, like, the like, those drugs

(01:16:11):
with him, actually. But, andit's not like, he's just like, I
don't know, he just, I was beinglike, a horrible friend, and,
like, just so, like, on and offand like, whatever. So yeah, he
stopped talking to me, even whenI got clean, I reached out to
him a bunch of times. He, like,left me, just ghosted me, kind
of thing, for like, a long time,for like, I think, like, a year
or something, and that like,destroyed me. I was, I was so

(01:16:33):
upset about that. But eventuallyhe, he saw that I was, like,
consistent and kept, right, Idon't know, just kept, like,
every once in a while, reachingout and trying, and then, yeah,
now we just hung out with him,like, actually, just the other
day, like, Saturday or Sunday,so, and I don't know, my
relationship with him is now,like, so much more, like, I
think, so much stronger, becauseI've been like, so vulnerable

(01:16:55):
with them, you know. And I'vejust opened up about, I really
want, I really don't want tolose you. And I really was,
like, you know, messed up in allthese different ways, and I'm so
sorry that I was, like, ahorrible friend, but I'll never,
like, take you for grantedagain, right? Same things I've
said to Hannah, you know, andyeah, that I've said to other
people, and it's, yeah, it'sdefinitely scary as hell, but I
appreciate you recognizing that,yeah,

Siobhan (01:17:15):
well, of course. And because, and I think it has to
be, it should be recognized andtalked about, you know, like,
because, I let you Quan pulledaway because he's watching a
person he loves and who's beenhis friend for years basically
kill themselves. Yeah, and it'shard to watch. Like, I have a
few friends that are in deep intheir addiction, and I'll check
in with them. But I also am,like, I keep a distance, and I

(01:17:36):
have to for my own heart and myown brain, and because I don't
want to get sucked in, almost,and even though I know now,
like, it would never, like, Ialways I have, like, you know,
maybe there's still nights Idrink a little too much, or, you
know, but I have, like, checksand balances I've set up for
myself because, like, I havechosen not to be completely
sober. Like, more California's,yeah, no, I'm not sober. I can't

(01:17:59):
say that, you know, I drink notevery day, but I drink quite
often. And, like, I smoke a lotof weed, but I now know, like,
when I have my vices, and Iknow, like, I have to take
breaks, and I know I need tocheck in with myself, and I know
there's people that I'll belike, you know that would check
me if I started to go too far.
Off course, yeah. And it's like,it's like figuring out your
boundaries, almost. And itsounds like you probably didn't

(01:18:23):
get raised with a whole lot ofboundaries. Yeah, I didn't
either. And so it's like tryingto figure out how to be the
version I me, I want to be inthe world, but also like knowing
like someone like you, like Ihave learned so much from you
and gotten to, like, haveexciting, fun times. And like,
I'm gonna get, you know, if Ihad just said to Hannah, like,
hey, you know, fuck that guy,yeah, he's a, you know, a piece

(01:18:46):
of shit or whatever. And like,either, that would have caused
us to either not be friendsanymore, you know, like, I would
have lost her too, yeah? Or, youknow, she could have taken bad
advice from me and left you andthen had some resentment all the
time, right? You know what Imean? And then that would have
lost our friendship, yeah? Butby just kind of being respectful
of, like, okay, that's yourdecision. You're an adult, and

(01:19:07):
I'm gonna be here for when youneed me. And like, I'll, I'll be
here to, like, be open to himbeing, like, the better version
of himself, and if he is great,but if he's not, then, like,
we're gonna have, like, thisthing in our friendship where I
don't hang out with your man,you know. But it was so nice to
see like you were doing all thethings and being the person that
you wanted to be for you andkind of for her, yeah, no, for

(01:19:30):
sure, yeah. Because I know, likeyou said earlier, you're the
only one that can do it, and youhave to do it for yourself,
yeah? But she's a big part ofthat. And like, for sure she is,
yeah, you know, I think thatthis whole situation was, like,
you had, like, a bad, you knowwhat? I mean, like, it was a
blip, yeah? So it shouldn'tdefine you, you know, like, and
it sounds kind of to like,minimize it, but it's almost

(01:19:52):
like in your years of existing,there's like three years that
maybe your shit was bad, yeah,after. All those years of you
being so you know, a good personwho's productive and doing
things, you know, so itshouldn't be the only thing that
defines you. Yeah,

Oliver (01:20:06):
yeah. It's funny to look at it like that, because I
definitely like all or nothing.
It in a lot of ways, and a lotof the rhetoric around like,
recovery rooms and all that isdefinitely like all or nothing.
So like, so what I mean by thatis like, I see it like, Okay, I
was using, even if it wasn'tevery day, like I was using
drugs for pretty much most of,like, my adult life, or like,

(01:20:27):
you know, maybe mainly fromlike, I guess 21 to like was,
uh, 29 or 30 or whatever, um. Soit's like, Oh, my God. Like,
almost 10 years or whatever,like, a decade of using, where I
was just, like, this piece ofshit. But yeah, the truth is
that it wasn't like thatexactly, you know, it wasn't

(01:20:47):
this, like, all or nothing, likethat that, yeah, it got, it sank
into getting worse and worseand, like, it was probably,
like, a sort of on the edgebeing a problem, or, like,
whatever kind of, I don't knowexactly I describe it, for like,
a little while, and then, yeah,you're probably right that it
was, like, really, three yearsof it being like this, just bad.
And then, yeah, coming back. Butyeah, I know that. That the

(01:21:09):
thing though, about that is,like, you know, it takes, uh,
what do they say it takes? Like,it takes such a it can take
like, years to build trust, orwhatever, like, so many moments,
and then it can take like, 10seconds to destroy it, right? So
that's the kind of the problemis, like, you know, I don't
know. I feel like I have, I havefelt like I'm having this uphill

(01:21:30):
battle that I'm having, like,proved myself like a lot, and
then I tried to, for the mostpart, like, Be okay with that
and accept that, because of howmuch I put a lot of people
through. But then sometimes I'mjust like, Alright, come on.
It's been, like, years,literally years of me being,
like, on top of my shit andlike, just improving, like, day
after day that. Like, do youhave to, like, not trust me

(01:21:53):
about like, this or this andthat and that, that I'm
referring to, like things that,yeah, for sure, with Hannah, my
partner, but then, but a lotmore, like, maybe, like, with,
like, my family and stuff, youknow, and I don't know,
especially with my sister,that's, like, a very rough like
thing right now that I want tomake better very badly,

Siobhan (01:22:12):
yeah, and it is. And I think sometimes, too, that part
sucks for people that have gonethrough stuff like you have,
yeah, it's like, okay, whatpoint do I get to have the
benefit of the doubt back?
Right, right? And it's likepeople almost like, like, lord
it over you, in a way, or like,it's like they're, it's like
they're a little bit of controlin kind of that relationship.
Yeah, they lost so much of it,yeah. But it's also kind of not

(01:22:33):
fair, like that. You have to,like, I mean, it, I go both ways
on the argument, because, like,as a person that, like, you
know, not not you specifically,but like, having an addict in my
life that, like, has done fuckedup shit, and you're like, Yeah,
okay, yeah. Now you're sober.
Now I'm supposed to just getover it, because you said,
sorry. Like, there is a littlebit of that, like, you know

(01:22:54):
what? I mean, there's a littlebit of a resentment, I think, on
the person who gets hurt, yeah,like, and that that's their
thing, that they have to kind oflet go, yeah, and decide, like,
all right, if we're gonna dothis, then we both have to go in
it to it like, knowing andsaying, okay, yeah, this stuff
happened, but now we're on a newpage, and we're gonna keep
trying to look forward and notkeep pulling all of that back

(01:23:15):
up. Yeah,

Oliver (01:23:16):
yeah. Like, the thing that's like, the most rough for
me is, like, like, I said likewith my sister, because I think
it's just, I really amstruggling, like, even to this
day, with that, with exactlythat issue. And on one hand, I
totally understand, like, whyshe feels some type of way about
a lot of things, yeah, and thenon the other hand, I'm like,

(01:23:37):
like, having you, like, I feellike I've been going above and
beyond, to try to, like, fix ourrelationship, and be like, on
point, and I like, and finewith, you know, she's she can be
super flaky with me. And like,also, in a lot of ways, I'll
sometimes be, like, kind ofselfish in what she's about,
which, you know, that'swhatever, but I just, I'm, like,
that's fine. I'm just gonnaaccept exactly how she is, and,

(01:23:59):
like, not complain whatsoever,right? I'm not perfect at that,
but I have been doing that alot, but then at the same time,
then I think back on it, it'slike I have so much guilt around
things with her, because she isactually the one that found me
the first time I overdosed,right? Which was, like, I know,
traumatic as hell for her. Andthat was, like, I know that was,

(01:24:21):
I guess that was actually, Iguess, like, yeah, like, five
years ago, something like that.
I think, like, five or six. Ithink my mom, I know, she knows
the exact year it was, but Iwas, like, around that, and I
think, I think that so I had, Iwas visiting family for it was a
few, it was a couple weeks afterI passed that qualifying exam.
That's what it was, because thenI visited family for like,

(01:24:43):
Christmas time, yeah? And it wasa couple days after Christmas,
she found me overdose, like, inthis car, wow, with my ex wife,
who was all all messed up, like,she wasn't overdosed, but, like,
not really coherent, yeah, yeah.
So that was horrible. So mysister, like, really. Yeah,
yeah. So there's like issuesthere. And like, I have a lot of
like guilt around that I used toI was definitely battling with

(01:25:08):
feeling just like horrible aboutmyself, about that, but I know
I've forgiven myself a lot, youknow, and yeah, a lot of ways.
Like, I know I was just reallysick. I know that for like, a
lot of the things that happened,but, but still, I mean, that's,
that's that's just, like, areally tough one. I just, I
think it's super hard, but yeah,it's getting better,

Siobhan (01:25:26):
yeah. And I think time, I think time will eventually do
it, and especially if you cankind of keep that grace for her
to know, like she's stillstruggling with it, even though
you're, you might not be, forwhatever reason she's holding on
to it. And I can't imaginefinding your brother, like, you
know, unresponsive, it's that isscary, and she's probably still
really mad that she could havelost you. And she probably has a
lot of that, like, and shedoesn't know how to get rid of

(01:25:48):
it, almost, yeah, and then ifshe gets rid of it, what happens
if you relapse? And then whathappens if so now she put her in
that position to get hurt again,and, like, she put herself into
that position to get hurt again.
So I can, kind of, I could seewhite, how she would feel that.
But I also understand, like,it's frustrating when she can't
let go of it, right? You know,like, because it does put in
like, a wall between you two,yeah,

Oliver (01:26:10):
yeah. And it's like, I've been, you know, it's hard
too, because So, so what alsomakes it hard is that my whole
family is all on the East Coaststill, so I'm not, like,
spatially or geographicallyclose to them, so they're not
seeing me like day to day. Andso I came up with a solution for
that, which I think was a goodone. So I have weekly FaceTime
chats with my sister, andseparately, weekly FaceTime

(01:26:32):
chats with my brother, and thenI call my mom pretty often, and
we end up FaceTiming a lot, butwith my siblings, I have that
scheduled and so and I comethrough, like, almost every
week, I was really, I wasactually really torn, because
since Hannah and I just did thismove that we did, like, I had
to, I had to, like, cancel onone of those like sessions, and

(01:26:54):
that, like, really bothered me.
Like, I like, take it thatseriously, right? But then at
the same time, my sister isprobably flaked on like, a third
to a half of them, and, like,it'll be last minute all the
time, and I just have to, like,take that, right, but, like, but
that, that's the only So, if Ithink about it's like, so she's
seeing me for the most part, forlike, one hour a week, like,
seeing me even though it'sthrough a video that's so

(01:27:16):
different than, like, you know,if she in person, like, saw me
And how I am, and, like, sawthat, like, over and over and
over again, so I don't know. Soyeah, I'm trying to just give
that a lot of grace and, like,Be okay with that. But that's
definitely, like, it'sdefinitely been, like, very
difficult part of this, like,sobriety thing, for sure. But
yeah,

Siobhan (01:27:34):
it's like, dealing with all the consequences of it.
Like, yeah, yeah, it sucks,yeah.

Oliver (01:27:39):
And there's still, there's still, like, a lot,
there's still more people thatlike, I need to, I feel like I
need to reach out to to makeamends, and it's just, and then
at the same time it's like, it'shard to like, do that and like,
it's I don't want to like, Idon't want to do that too much,
too fast, even though it's been,like, some time that I've been
clean, because there's also beenA lot of other things I've

(01:28:01):
needed to rebuild, right but Idon't want to do too much of
that too fast and just feel likeso bad about myself, you know,
like rehashing, like, all ofthese different things. So I've
been, I don't know, kind of onthis, like, weird struggle of
how much is the right amount of,like, fixing relationships
versus, like, just doingsomething good for myself, right
thing? Yeah.

Siobhan (01:28:21):
And I wonder too, like, how many of those relationships
that you're thinking of, arethose people also in their
addiction? So is it somethingthat one you want to open the
door to, like them, exchangingenergy with them, or two, is it
anything that they even and I'mso I'm sure there are some
people that were sober and or,you know, sober that you have
that with. But I wanted to howmany of those relationships are

(01:28:43):
drug related versus actual, realrelationships? Yeah, yeah. Sure
that that has to. It's hard tofigure that out, too, if you're
not interacting with them,right? So I'm sure that that's
also, like, a little bit there.
Or I would think,

Oliver (01:28:58):
yeah, no, for sure.
Like, there's like, I wanted to,like, fix some relationships
with a few people that I Yeah,there's definitely been people
I've recognized, like, my wholeI thought those people were,
like, my best friends, right?
And then I realized thateverything our relationship was
about was just getting high,right? Like, like, and it's so
crazy how I only see that inhindsight, you know, like, I

(01:29:20):
thought I was so close with thatperson that I realized, like,
what do they, like, really knowabout me that, like, you know,
what do they really experiencewith me that wasn't us? Just,
like, getting high the wholetime, right? And I know I shared
stuff with them, but all, like,fucked up that, like, I don't
know they don't do they reallyknow me. And it's just that part
was like crazy to, like,recognize that there's been a
couple people in particular I'mthinking of like, that that,

(01:29:41):
yeah, I just decided, like, Idon't think I can actually,
like, reach out to them. I don'tthink I can have them in my life
at all unless they got clean andlike, we're that way, like, but

Siobhan (01:29:49):
I think that that's an important thing to realize, too,
and recognize, and know, like,okay, there are people from my
past that are going to be goodfor me to bring back, and then
there are people that are betterbe kind of left in my past.
Yeah. And that's how hard I canimagine how hard that is. I
mean, just in my own life andthinking about things like when
I kind of, when I walked awayfrom my old life, there was

(01:30:10):
people that, like, has havestayed with me, and there are
people that haven't. And attimes it's like, Wait, do I want
to reach out to those people?
And then I'm like, wait, I Whywould I reach out to them? Yeah,
they're a part of that old lifethat they weren't really adding
value. Then if I can, like,really distance myself from it.
It's like those people were partof that life that I was having
that I shouldn't have been in,and they probably recognize that

(01:30:32):
too. And like, there was adistance that I don't want to
admit, that I probably alwaysknew was there, yeah, right.
Like, Yeah. Kind of trippinglike, yeah, layers of
complications. Yeah,

Oliver (01:30:46):
no, for sure, for sure, yeah, but

Siobhan (01:30:49):
yeah, and you and Hannah are about to go on an
epic adventure, which I'm superexcited for you. Yeah, I'm super
sad for myself. Yeah,

Oliver (01:30:57):
I know. I'm sorry about that. I could, I could see that,

Siobhan (01:31:00):
but I'm super excited to come and meet you guys. You
guys are gonna start becauseyou'll be remote for most of
your work, for what you whatyou're tutoring, and then doing
your PhD stuff, you can do a lotof that,

Oliver (01:31:11):
yeah, because it's all data science stuff, AI stuff,
like, I don't I theoreticallyshould be able to do all the
rest that I need to do of thePhD stuff, like remotely. And I
talked to the people that run,like, not the professors, but
the people that kind of likework, like the staff people for
the department, yeah, exactly.
And they told me, like, therewould be no problem, actually,
right? Like me being remote, butyeah,

Siobhan (01:31:32):
and Hannah works remote, so you guys are gonna
start doing the camper van life.
Uh huh,

Oliver (01:31:36):
yeah. So we have our big truck, and then we got our slide
like, cab over, slide in camper.
So, yeah, so we have our wholelittle rig. And yeah, we're
about to just be nomadic for, Iat least, probably a year, if
not two years. And I don't know,I kind of feel like we're going
to end up doing a lot out ofthis. And yeah, but we're about
to be, like, fully nomadic,which is wild,

Siobhan (01:31:56):
yeah. And you guys will be sharing that journey kind of
coming up too, in the nextcouple weeks, you'll start to
share that stuff, so people cankind of follow you guys and see
what it's like, and see whereyou're going and kind of what
you're doing. Yeah,

Oliver (01:32:09):
we actually, on the way over here, we're thinking about,
like, we've been thinking aboutnames for that, like branding or
whatever. Like, yeah, we reallywant to make YouTube videos, and
we've been filming stuff forthat. But I'm thinking that
actually, what Hannah, I hadthis idea, and then she kind of,
like, did an iteration of itthat I like a lot better, but we
were thinking, if it's not takensomething like more to explore,
and something like that, yeah,kind of rhymes, and then, you

(01:32:31):
know, it's just about, there'smore like world out there to
explore. And I don't know,because we're, I don't even know
all the places we're gonna endup going, but it's always gonna
be more to explore. So, yeah,

Siobhan (01:32:40):
I love it, all right.
Well, well, I think we'll wrapthis up, because I know you have
to get to work and you have togo hang out with your beautiful
girlfriend, who I hope will meether soon on here we she and I
actually sat down one day withanother friend, but the audio
was terrible because there wasthree of us and only two mics.
Oh yeah, giggly littleschoolgirl, so, but we'll
introduce Hannah to the duckingworld and soon, yeah, that'd

Oliver (01:33:03):
be awesome.

Siobhan (01:33:04):
I know she would love that, yeah. And thank you so
much for sharing your story.
Yeah, thank you. Like, it'sreally is inspiring. And, like,
for someone that's out therestruggling, like, they know too,
like, all right, this kid didit, I can do it,

Oliver (01:33:15):
yeah, I really hope so that, like, that really is,
like, a huge part of that, thatactually exactly, I mean, yeah,
I should have said that, butthat's exactly a reason that I
really feel like it's important,it's actually the right thing to
do, to, like, authentically,like, share these kind of things
that, yeah, I mean, otherwise,like, people just feel like
they're the only ones in theworld, like going through this,
right? In actuality, it's likethere's such a common humanity,

(01:33:37):
you know? Yeah.

Siobhan (01:33:37):
And I think if we can get the shame away from it, we
can really help a lot morepeople. Yeah, absolutely All
right. Well, thank you, Holly,thank you all for listening, and
I hope you can go find some joyfor yourself today. I love you.
You.

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