Intentions, Justice & Self-Care with Lee

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In this thought-provoking and deeply personal episode, Siobhan and Lee dive into the power of understanding intentions behind actions, sparked by a heated debate Siobhan had at a bar—yes, even about something as extreme as becoming a Nazi. Lee emphasizes the importance of having difficult conversations to foster growth and deeper understanding, even when emotions run high.

The conversation takes a personal turn as Lee opens up about her own struggles, including a traumatic break-in and the loss of a close friend, and how therapy and exercise have become vital tools in managing anxiety and depression. Together, they explore the challenge of balancing work, personal life, and mental health, while also finding ways to reclaim joy and creativity.

Siobhan shares her admiration for Lee’s vibrant, artistic spirit, encouraging her to return to burlesque and creative expression. They also discuss Siobhan’s experience with the judicial system, her time in the courtroom, and why she’s fascinated by the process of justice and impartiality.

Of course, it wouldn’t be a Ducking Realitea episode without some unexpected turns—like the importance of bidets and bathroom conveniences, because self-care takes many forms! Plus, Lee gives us a glimpse into her Etsy jewelry business, “Lee Evil Design,” and her plans to expand.

It’s a mix of deep, raw truths and lighthearted moments—because life is both. Press play and join the conversation. 🎙️✨

Episode Transcript

Siobhan (00:00):
All right. So welcome, all right. Y'all this week on

(00:11):
this episode of Ducking reality,I'm joined with my friend Lee
Williams, hello, hi. I'm excitedfor this because we've been
talking about it for a while.
It's true we have and so I knowyou from the bar scene. I think
maybe we met at 13, or did wemeet? That's like, Stevie,

Lee (00:28):
I got it's really hard to say, yeah, it was so long ago. I
don't know.

Siobhan (00:34):
It's been a few years, yeah, but then I just picked you
up because and then I wanted totell you the story of what just
happened to me. And I was like,wait, I'm gonna wait till we get
some microphones. Okay, so Iwanna, we're gonna get into your
story. But so I just had thishappen. I was just at 13, and I
was coming to pick you up. So Igrabbed lunch and had a beer and
said hi, and then I ended uptalking to this guy, and we were
talking about whether or notintention behind something
matters, right? And so he wassaying, like, no one has to give

(00:58):
a Nazi a platform to why theybecame a Nazi. It doesn't matter
that how they became a Nazi. Itjust matters that they're a
Nazi. And I was saying, no, no,why they became a Nazi does
actually matter, like, theintention behind it. And he was
like, if you're giving them aplatform, you're normalizing it.
And and I was like, no, no.
Like, I'm not saying whether ornot they became a Nazi is good
or bad. Like, obviously,personally, it's always bad. But
I do want to understand why theybecame a Nazi, so I can help

(01:21):
other people not become Nazis.
Yeah. So, like, I need to knowwhy that person decided to
become a Nazi. Or, like, didthey realize they were becoming
a Nazi? Or I'm like, sointention does matter. It does
Yeah. And he was like, itdoesn't. Intention never
matters. It only matters whothey are. My I was like, No.
Like, I think you're I'm like,so if you never understand how
someone does something wrong.
How do you ever teach someonenot to right? And then he just

(01:43):
kept talking over me, and everytime I would be like, like, he
was like, well, murder is neverright. And I was like, No,
that's not true. Because, like,why did you murder someone? Did
it become down, become betweenyou and I so, like, you murdered
me because I would have murderedyou. Like, then that intention
does matter, right? He's like,okay, so fine, you got one good
one, like, rape. Just rape everlike, and he was getting really

(02:05):
like mad, and I was very common.
I'm like, No, there's no evergood reason for rape. Like,
there just isn't. I mean, can Ilogically tell you why some
people think it's okay to rape?
I can. Actually, I'm not goingto but, and then I was saying,
like, the universe doesn'tpeople don't evolve and move
forward without difficultconversations. Exactly. You need
a difficult conversation inorder to help someone grow, to

(02:27):
help them see, like, Hey, I wastaught a bunch of racist shit,
but I was wrong. And like, thisis how I get there. I'm like,
you don't have that withoutunderstanding someone's
intention, without understandingwhy. And he was like, you're
wrong and you're just trying toplatform people, but every time
I went to make a point, he wouldjust start talking over me, and
then he's like, you're giving meanecdotal information. I'm
giving you statistics, is he?

(02:49):
And I was like, so wait, whatstatistic Did you just give me
exactly? And he's like, Well,you're just giving me anecdotal.
And I was like, and he's like,right? You just said anecdotal.
And I said, I've never said theword anecdotal. You're
distilling what I'm down sayingto something that's anecdotal, I
said, but I'm not telling youwhat you're saying is wrong or
what you're saying is right. I'mjust saying this is what I
think. I think someone'sintention is important. Do I do?

(03:11):
I think it always matters, orwhat the end result is, like, is
right or wrong because of theirintention? No, I'm not putting
any value on it, right? I'masking you, like, I'm saying,
like, I think it does matter.
Yes. And he's like, you're wrongand you're the problem, and And
so finally, I was just like, allright, dude, you just keep
talking over me. And he waslike, I go, so nothing I say
matters, and you're not a personI want to talk to you because

(03:32):
now you're telling me that whatI'm saying is just anecdotal,
but you have statistics. He'slike, Well, face value, I don't
know you. I don't know what youdo or don't know. And I was
like, right, but I don't knowwhat you do and do not know. You
haven't asked me what I do notknow, and you don't haven't
asked me for anything. Because,well, if you want to pull up a
statistics, I'd like you to seeit. Let's go, go ahead. And I
was like, Yeah, I'm not going todo your homework for you. But
again, you're just assuming thatbecause I disagree with you,

(03:56):
that I am wrong, and you'retrying to diminish what I'm
saying by calling it anecdotaland saying you have statistics
face value. I don't know you. Idon't know if you have a
statistics back up anythingyou're saying, but you're
confident enough to tell me thatI don't know shit and you do
know better. And is that becauseyou're just an older, white guy?
Yeah, I go, and I just look athim, and was like, because I'm
like, because he won't let mefinish a sentence or a thought

(04:18):
without talking over me. Wasjust fucking rude, yeah, and so,
like, I kind of buttoned it upand was like, Yeah, I'm done
talking to you. And as I wasleaving, Chris was like, yeah.
I'm like, Nah, I'm just sick offucking dudes telling me I'm
wrong because I'm a woman. Yeah.
He's like, that dude, he'salways so nice to me. And I
looked at him and I was like,he's like, Well, I'm here
because you're a dude. And I waslike, I'm just talking to dudes

(04:39):
being like, well, you don't knowwhat you're talking about. Even
though they don't know anything.
Don't know anything about me.
Yeah, they don't know anything.
I'm like, This dude is soconfident in trying to tell me
that I'm wrong, and trying totell me anything I say is
anecdotal, while he hasstatistics,

Lee (04:51):
but see, he's also telling you that you're a part of the
problem. Is so ironic, becauseit's that kind of attitude and.
That prevents us from movingforward and divides us, you
know, especially like today inthis political climate, like the
reason we are where we are isbecause of intolerance, right?

Siobhan (05:13):
Well, he was telling me that I'm giving intolerance a
platform which makes thetolerance acceptable. And I was
like, that's not what I said atall. It's

Lee (05:22):
no, in fact, it's just the opposite. And

Siobhan (05:25):
I was like, so you think the world just has become
he's like, Well, it's safe forpeople to be gay now in small
towns, because they've seen thecity say that it's okay. And I'm
like, No, they've had difficultconversations, and that's moved
the Yeah, society forward. So ifyou just

Lee (05:43):
shut somebody down and you're not willing to listen to
them, then you, in fact, arepart of the problem, right?

Siobhan (05:49):
So he's actively shutting me down. And I was
like, no. So like, if you grewup in a silo, and you grew up
only knowing, like, one way to,like, get out of that place, and
then, as you're gonna talk aboutthat show later, and I'm like,
and so like you don't understandthat what you taught was wrong,
right? No one ever has a hardconversation about how like you

(06:10):
being taught like someone thatlooks different or sleeps with
someone different than you do iswrong. How do you know that it's
wrong, right? I'm like, so youdon't want to give anyone a
platform that you disagree with,because then you think that's
normalizing it, like, but how dothose people then learn that
they were wrong if no one evertalks about it? Yeah, and he's

(06:30):
like, so you think a Nazi isjust okay? And I'm like, that's
not what I said at all. I'mlike, I've never put a judgment
on a Nazi, like, and someoneelse is like, well, there's
different levels of Nazi. Andhe's like, Oh, that's what
you're going what you're gonnasay you're and I was like, but
there is just, like, there'sdifferent levels of racism,
yeah. Like, he was like, Haveyou ever seen someone who, like,

(06:51):
will say racist shit, actuallyinteract with someone that's of
a different race and they treatthat person with like, love and
respect, or like not even love,but like, courtesy and like,
they're kind to them, andthey're like, Oh, I like that
one. Like, I'm not saying it'sright, but like, that's how you
get someone to grow and thenlearn. Like, Oh, guess what? All
the other people that look likethat good one are also good

(07:13):
ones. Yeah. Like, if you'venever exposed someone to that,
and you never teach them, or younever, like, let them get the
room to make mistakes.

Lee (07:23):
Yeah, well, and the easiest thing to do, the knee jerk
reaction to being human, is to,you know, black and white
everything. Instead of seeingall the shades in between,
you're just saying, This isgood, this is bad. It's easier,
right, to compartmentalize thatway, and it requires less

(07:43):
thought, oh, yeah, and lessemotional, you know,

Unknown (07:51):
work or

Siobhan (07:53):
intelligence or intelligence, yeah, like, and I
was like, I always want tounderstand how someone else
thinks, because, like, I can'tunderstand hating someone for
not knowing them, right? Like, Imean, I don't even really hate
the people I do know that Iprobably should. But, like, but
like, I have never understoodhating someone that you don't
know for, like, the color of theskin or who they date, or, like,

(08:13):
I don't know what they're into.
Like, yeah, I just that is sofar from the way I think so.
Like, I want to understand howsomeone gets like that I want to
understand, like, how do you notsee someone's humanity almost
exactly, like, and so, yeah, Iwant to understand that. I'm not
saying that it affects whetheror not I think their position is
right or wrong. Like, I justwant to understand it so I can
understand another human being.

(08:36):
Yeah, like, I'm not trying tojudge with if they got to that
place and they're right orwrong, or if it's moral or
immoral, I want to understandwhy they think they the way they
think. Yeah, and then maybe Ican help CELT teach them some
new way to think, or maybethey'll teach me a new way to
think like and maybe their wayis different and right in some
way that I haven't noticedbefore, or maybe they're just

(08:56):
batshit crazy.

Lee (08:58):
Well, yeah, well, but it also helps with your ability to
have compassion for your fellowhuman right, you know, that's
true. Understanding is a part ofthat, yeah, yeah,

Siobhan (09:11):
yeah, yeah. I was so annoyed, though, yeah. So like,

Lee (09:14):
his, his way of thinking is very polarizing, right?

Siobhan (09:19):
Like, and he was just like, oh, you know, like, when
he was like, people can be gayin small towns now because
society put pressure on otherpeople to know that it's okay.
And I was like, Wow, you are,like, I whitewashing the whole
world that now you think it'sjust okay to be gay everywhere.
Like, it's still not okay to beand it should be, but it's still

(09:39):
not okay to be gained. It's notlike it's easy now and really
snow like, he just was like, oh,everything is better. And like,
yeah, no. People aren't racistnow because they see in society
that you shouldn't be. And I waslike, No, that's where do you
live?

Lee (09:58):
Yeah. Well. That is, that's an incredible perspective that's
not based on reality whatsoever.
Well, it must be nice to be inhis world. You know,

Siobhan (10:17):
I wanted to be like, your privilege is showing bro,
oh my god. But I was like, Ijust gotta go, yeah. Wow. So men
are something that we havetalked about a lot, so I felt it
was kind of fitting that I wasjust like, in this conversation,
like, and I and then when he,like, threw, like, anytime a

(10:38):
dude throws rape in my face,it's like, yeah, I wanted to be
like, you have, you have no youcan't. You are only a
perpetrator of that. You cannotspeak and like, then part of me
just to be like, the kind ofrebellious, like, I'm gonna rock
your world anyways. Wanted to belike, Well, yeah, I can't see
that. Like, oh, I can find anexcuse for it. I can't, I won't,

(11:01):
and I didn't, but part of mejust to be like, the adversary
of it wanted to be like, no, no.
So you're just because I justproved you wrong on a murder you
want to try to tell me, like,oh, well, here's something you
can't find, like, you can'tfight me on this one. I'm gonna
be and it's also because itholds a different weight when a
man says it to a woman, like,right, exactly. And then I was
just like, oh. And in my brain,I was like, Oh, if Lee was here,

(11:22):
we'd be ganging up on this deal.
Oh, yeah, all right, true, butwe'll get into all of that. So
Lee, tell us a little bit ofyour origins story. Oh, boy, I
know some of it, but I don'tknow all of it. Oh,

Lee (11:39):
well, like, how far back do you want me to go?

Siobhan (11:45):
I actually do not know where you're from originally,

Lee (11:48):
well, so my dad was Navy, so we moved around quite a lot,
and that is why I hate movingand I totally have PTSD around
it. I like to establish rootsand friendships and keep that

(12:10):
going for as long as possible.
But when my parents split, whenI was, I don't know, fairly
young, we ended up moving intomy grandparents who lived in
Medina, Washington, which is,like, just across from Seattle,
okay, and yeah, so that's whereI spent the formative years of

(12:32):
my teenage Dum and then came outto go to Cal Berkeley, and just
never went back? Nice. Where'dyou go to Cal Berkeley for
psychology, which, you know, I'ma bartender,

Siobhan (12:50):
yeah? So you're the best kind of psychology, yeah,

Lee (12:54):
yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's kind of how I came to be
here.

Siobhan (13:00):
How long have you been in the bay? Oh, my God, most

Lee (13:04):
of my life now, nice. Yeah, I don't want to admit to the
years. Nothing but

Siobhan (13:10):
a number, baby.

Lee (13:14):
It's been a minute. Let's just put it that way, yeah,

Siobhan (13:17):
but you're like, kind of into the punk scene too,
right?

Lee (13:21):
Yeah, I would say or post punk, post punk, yeah, is my
jam, but I also love industrial.
So

Siobhan (13:29):
wait, what makes post punk, post punk and not punk?
I'm not up on my uh, punkness.
Well,

Lee (13:38):
I mean, it's definitely a part of the punk movement, but
it happened a little bit lateron, and it You mean, I'm, look,
I'm not a music expert, but thebands that you can sort of put
in that range is like early cureand, you know, music that's kind

(14:01):
of like that, I would say it's alittle more melodic, but still
has that edginess to it thatjust really appeals to me. But
again, I also love industrial.
So I love loud and noise andand I do love, like a lot of the
OG punk bands as well. Yeah,

Siobhan (14:24):
yeah, because any then you've been a bartender for
almost a whole timer. So

Lee (14:29):
yeah, funny enough. As soon as I turned 21 I started
bartending at a little place inBerkeley that no longer exists,
but it was like a live musicvenue spot. And then I did that
for about a year, maybe a littleunder a year, and then I just

(14:52):
switched to, I mean, it'sdifficult to work late nights
when you're in college. So Iswitched to other gigs, like Re.
Tell and whatever else to get methrough my college years. But,
you know, not too long after Idecided to, you know, go back
into bartending again, becauseit was more lucrative than, you

(15:14):
know, all the things I had beendoing, although I did have a
stint as a paralegal, and thatwas interesting, but very
stressful. Oh, I'm sure, yeah.
So yeah, the day that I got laidoff was one of the happiest days
of my life.

Siobhan (15:33):
Never went back. Yeah, because I'm sure it's
interesting, it's good money,but it's also like, you know,
you're affecting what happenswith people's lives in a very,
like definitive way.

Lee (15:43):
Yeah, and you know, you also have to deal with
attorneys, which can beextremely difficult depending on
the personalities. Yeah, yeah,yeah,

Siobhan (15:58):
I know. I'm working with a boss, one of my bosses
right now. He's super kind andwonderful and generous, but he
has a streak sometimes where hecan kind of get little hostile.
And like, the other day, helike, caught my eye on
something, and like, I justwalked in, and he starts
screaming at me, and he's soangry. He's like, didn't you
just see what happened? And Iwas like, what I didn't I goes
like, what? Like? And I thought,like, something egregious had

(16:19):
just happened. And then he'slike, do you even hear that
music? And I was like, Oh, thisis what you're that mad about,
like, and as he's, like, talkingto me, and I can feel his
hostility, like my whole bodywas in like a, like, panic
attack, like my, you know,nervous system was in fight or
flight, like I could feel myselflike wanting to, like, cry or

(16:42):
run away. And I was like, mybrain was like, wait, wait, no.
Like, this is nothing to do withyou. Like, hold on. Like, what
is happening? And I was like, Ohmy gosh. Like, and someone was
like, and I was like, yeah.
Like, I know that he has that.
Like, it's kind of like exposureto, like, therapy. For me, he's
the one thing that I do not wantto be around, like, when he gets
like that almost all the time,I'm, like, joyous to be around

(17:05):
him, but like, when somethingmakes him so mad, I get, like,
scared, like I just

Lee (17:10):
can, yeah, I had quite a few of those types of attorneys
that I worked with. I got reallygood at dealing with them, but,
you know, didn't mean I enjoyedit.

Siobhan (17:22):
Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, I saw someone else, like, interact
with him in the state, like, andthey were just like, they
laughed it off. And I was like,that's how I want to get like,

Lee (17:30):
yeah, you have to desensitize yourself to a
personality like that if youhave to deal with them on the
daily,

Siobhan (17:36):
right? Yeah, because it's like, your triggers aren't
your fault, but how you respondto them are, yeah, and like, I
it made me think of you in theconversations we've had, because
we've both been like, through somany things that cause so many
reactions that we don't want tohave. Yes, you know, like, we're
like, those things that happento us are not our fault, but
like, how we're now respondingto them are, is, yes, exactly.

(17:59):
And, oh, it's a hard one, yeah,that is, I think that's like one
of the hardest things in life,yeah, and I feel like you're
still kind of coming fresh offof that in some ways, yes,
definitely, yeah. You want totell us about it. I know we
talked about talking about it,but I now it feels like a little

(18:21):
more real, and I feel like ithas to be really hard for you to
talk about,

Lee (18:26):
yeah, so yes, the past few years have really been very
challenging. A lot of friendswho have passed a lot of
upheaval in my own personallife. Haven't always dealt with

(18:46):
the trauma in the best way, butwhat I'm learning to accept
about myself is I dealt with itin the best way possible at the
time.

Siobhan (19:01):
Oh, amen to that. Yeah, yeah.

Lee (19:03):
Because previously, I could be very, very critical of myself
and feel very down or let down.
You know, I learned all thesetools to work with difficult
situations. Why couldn't Iimplement them at the time that
this happened. But, you know,it's like, it's not like

(19:26):
climbing a ladder. It's morelike taking a few steps back and
then pushing forward just thatone step more each time. Yeah,
you know, you just learn how toweather things a little little
better, maybe next time, not youknow you're not, you're not,

(19:47):
maybe where you want to be, butit's more about getting there,
oh yeah, than being there, yeah,yeah. And, and then I think of
what you're. Alluding to also isI had a very traumatic
experience. Gosh, it was a body,what, year and a half ago now, I

(20:10):
think, yeah, where I startednoticing weird things in my
house. I would come home and,you know, things would be moved
around in my bedroom. And atfirst I just sort of blamed it
on the cat. And then one day Icame home and I had a hairless

(20:34):
cat at the time, chicken. He'sthe most amazing cat ever, but
he was sunburned, and I neverlet him out, and I couldn't
figure out how he got outside,if he got outside, right? I had
all the windows shaded so hewouldn't get sunburned, because
he loves to, you know, used tolove to lie in the sunshine.

Siobhan (20:59):
I've never thought about a fact that a hairless cat
could get a sunburn. Oh,

Lee (21:03):
yeah, that's why you have to be very careful with them,
and you can't put sunblock onthem, because they clean
themselves. And that's toxic,right, you know? So that's

Siobhan (21:11):
just, like, one of those things that's, like, super
obvious after you said it, butit would have never crossed my
mind.

Lee (21:18):
Yeah, it's a thing. It's a thing, and they love heat, so
they will lie in the sun, right?
But you can get, for anybody outthere who has a hairless you can
get a UV blocking screen, okay,that you can put on the outside
of your windows so they canstill get the warmth right,
without getting the harmfulrays. Oh, that's an important

(21:40):
thing to know. Yeah, that'sprobably good for people too.
Well, yeah, someone that's

Siobhan (21:45):
had skin cancer a bunch, oh, that's awful. Well,
they mostly just cut it out, aslong as you catch it early,
yeah, yeah, get your skinchecks. People, yes,

Lee (21:55):
yes, definitely. Sorry.
Yeah, but, but, in fact, I foundone of the screens on the ground
when I walked in and I'm on thisWell, I was on the second floor
of my house, so I thought, God,did the wind like pick it up?
Maybe it fell off naturally,right? Was so confused by it,
because it was perfectly square,the work rectangular, the way it

(22:19):
was when I installed it, butjust laying on the ground. So it
wasn't too long after that thatI came home, I think around 10
from work. I sat downstairs, atedinner, watched TV, probably
till around one, two in themorning, and then dragged my

(22:43):
weary ass up to bed and openedmy door, and there was a man in
my bed, like in the covers,looking at me, someone I had
never, ever seen before, right?

(23:04):
And I just froze. And you know,when you're you never know how
you're gonna react right untilyou're in a situation. And I
just I did. I did what I I guesspeople are told to do when a
bear is in front of you. I justpuffed myself up as big as I

(23:28):
could and just started shoutinglike, Who the fuck are you? How
did you get in here? What thefuck you know? Get the fuck out
of my house. And he was like,Can I and he was like, Oh, God,
I still remember this. And hegives me chills. He had this

(23:51):
really weird, like, femininevoice saying, Can I just talk to
you? Can we just talk. It was sostrange. And I kept saying, No,
I don't want to hear anythingthat you have to say. And then
finally, I thought about it, andI was like, no, actually, how
did you how did you find me?
Right? Because my house isbehind a house, right? You don't

(24:13):
see it from the street. I

Siobhan (24:17):
drive by too many times. I have to go around the
block when I come to your house,yeah, drive right by it because
I it's you, I have to, like,look down the driveway to see
that it's even there,

Lee (24:25):
yeah, yeah, you don't see it from the streets. So how did
he find me? And he said, Youshowed me, yeah, so he obviously
had been following me, and atthat point, I was like, get the
fuck out of my house. Just getthe fuck out of my house right
now. And he said, okay, okay.
And then he waited for me to goin front of him. And I said, No,

(24:49):
no, no, you're in front of me.
You get in front of me rightfucking now. I was just
terrified that he was gonna pullweapon out. Or, you know, I
didn't have anything on meexcept for my anger, which I was
using like a shield, you know.
And of course, I think I scaredhim enough, and I was also

(25:11):
screaming as loudly as I couldso that my roommate, who was
dead asleep next door to me.
Could get up and come out andmaybe help with the situation.
No, he slept through the wholefucking thing, but it didn't

(25:32):
matter. I got him downstairs,out the door, out the gate, went
running back upstairs, screamedfor my roommate, banged on his
door. He came out. We called thepolice. Yeah, they came. Took
description, took my bedding,which, you know, the thought of

(25:55):
what ever was happening there.
And it dawned on me when I wastalking to them, Oh, my God, all
the things that were being movedto my house. And then I looked
at the window, and the screenhad been cut completely out of
it, yeah, and it was open. Andthen it all clicked. And there
was a night, like, a week and ahalf before that, where I was

(26:19):
coming home, and there's alittle carport where, you know,
we have a dedicated parkingspot, and it's very dark, and I
heard laughing coming frominside of it, like this really
low, like, Like, evil laugh. AndI ran to the gate and ran inside

(26:40):
the house and told my roommateabout it, and he came out with a
flashlight and looked, and therewas nobody in there. But I am
convinced, you know, right, thatit was this guy fucking with me,
and who knows how long he hadbeen following me home. Did

Siobhan (26:59):
you ever figure out how he might have picked you up, or
who, like, where he found youfrom, or how where he might have
been following you from. I mean,

Lee (27:06):
I'm assuming the local bar that I like to hang out with
after work, the he followed mehome from that I later came to
find out that there were severalwomen that he had been doing
that to in the area. Wow. Once Iposted my story, a bunch of
people came forward and saidthat something very similar had

(27:28):
happened to them, and the policeweren't great about follow ups I
had to call. Finally found outthat they had apprehended him,
um, set a court date and let himgo.

Siobhan (27:47):
So were you like, I guess, did they, like, ask about
you. Like, did you have to presscharges? Did you have to, like,
how does that I and I don't knoweven how much you know, like,
did you have to, like, go tocourt for this, or, like, is it?
No, like, it's he got chargedwith breaking and entering, and
then they just let him go, andthen that's it. It's over. Yeah,

Lee (28:09):
so unfortunately, like, that's kind of how it is in our
country. You know, you kind ofhave to murder somebody before
you know you're pro proclivitiesare considered serious. I, you
know, look, I listen to a lot oftrue crime, and I see the

(28:35):
description of his behavior asramping up, right, and that is
very concerning to me that he'sgoing to keep getting caught,
keep being let go, and then he'seventually going to harm
somebody right physically. And,you know, I kept trying to say
that to the police, but they,you know, yeah,

Siobhan (28:56):
well, they think they know everything better than you
do, because they deal with thatstuff all the time, even though
they don't actually do anything.
Yeah? Another, well, because oursystem is set up for them not to
really be able to do anythinganymore,

Lee (29:07):
yeah? Like,

Siobhan (29:10):
if they just, they do.
You know this guy's name, I'mnot asking you to share like,
like, don't

Lee (29:15):
I? Like, they didn't release any of his information.
They They did say that he hadbeen in prison and he had just
gotten out, like, I'm assuming,on good behavior or whatever,
you know, right? But this keepshappening

Siobhan (29:32):
so like, you're not allowed to know his name, but he
was in your house. Oh yeah,

Lee (29:36):
yeah, oh yeah. And, and who knows what he took or what he
looked at, what he did. I mean,I just, yeah, the whole thing
was just so upsetting. I mean,my I'm a problem solver, so as
soon as that happened, I got aring camera. I have locks on all

(29:58):
my windows, and I have a. Iguess dog now,
you know, like a lot of myfriends said, Oh, my God, I
would have moved. But no, whatam I that's not going to change
anything that could happenwherever you

Siobhan (30:14):
go, right? And if you're a person that likes to
you don't like to move, and youlike to put down roots, and
like, you're not going to letthis one person now take away
your sanctuary, right? You'regonna reinforce it and be like,
No, I'm gonna stand my ground.
Like, this is my place. Like,exactly, yeah, I'm not gonna
give the up everything I'vebuilt, because you like,
violated me. Yeah? I like, feellike I'm struggling on that

(30:35):
word, but it is a violation.
Like, well, yeah,

Lee (30:39):
and they found a lot of his DNA all over my sheets. And I
am, I just don't want to know,like, how many times had he been
been in my bed, and then I camehome and got in my bed, you
know,

Siobhan (30:53):
yeah, how do you how did you because I don't know if
I could do what you like, Idon't know if I could stay, you
know, like, and I understandwhere you it kind of goes back
to our intention thing. Iunderstand you staying and I,
part of me thinks I would, andpart of me thinks I don't know
if I could, you know, it's likethat I don't ever want to judge
myself. It kind of goes back towhat you already just said. It's

(31:14):
like, you don't want to judgefor something you've never been
through. Like, I'd like to thinkI know how I'll react to things,
but like, I honestly no, Idon't,

Lee (31:22):
yeah, well, I was really glad that I had that reaction. I
also was very grateful that itworked right the first night.
Well, really, by the time thepolice had stopped coming by, it
was already the next day, andthen the then that evening, I

(31:46):
know I grabbed my cat and Istayed at a friend's place,
right? But after that, I wantedto, I fiercely wanted to reclaim
my space, because nobody isgoing to intimidate me out of my

(32:06):
sanctuary, my home, that I'm notI'm not going to allow anybody
to do that. Nobody has that kindof power over me. So reclaiming
it was my number one goal,right? And and and improving,
you know, security and getting abig old dog, right?

Siobhan (32:29):
Did you do anything to, like, cleanse a space, or, like,
take that back? Or, like, oh,yeah, of course, yes. And you
said, Did you you moved rooms?
Was that like a well, that's ordid that just happen stands
later.

Lee (32:41):
That happened. That's happening more recently. I'm,
I'm in the process of justtrying to rent out the whole
upstairs of my house, notbecause of that in particular,
but it just makes more sense.
It's more rooms, you know, getsomebody to live up there and
I'll just go to the roomdownstairs. Yeah, that way we
won't bother each other. Oh,

Siobhan (33:04):
yeah, that's just the perils of having her me, yeah,

Lee (33:06):
yeah. You know. I mean, honestly, I at this point in my
life, I wish I didn't have to.
But right here we are in the BayArea, so it is here. What are
you gonna do? Yeah,

Siobhan (33:17):
yeah. You work a million hours like I do, yeah,
yeah. I was saying to somebodythe other day they called me,
and they were like, you know,you haven't really been around
much. And I was like, Yeah, Iknow. I work a lot. And they're
like, you said you were gonnacall the other day. And I was
like, Yeah, I know. And then Iwas at work for 12 and a half
hours, like, not gonna call youat midnight when I get out of
work. Like, I walked in to workat 1130 in the morning and
thought I was leaving at five,and I didn't leave until 1130 at

(33:39):
night. And they were like, oh,but you didn't have a chance to
call me. And I'm like, I barelyhad a chance to pee, right?
Yeah? Like, No, I didn't. Andthey're like, Oh, I can't
believe that. Like, okay, whywould I lie to you? Like, I
worked for 12 and a half hoursin a cafe, in talking to people
all day long, like, yeah, Ididn't. And there was like, Oh,
I don't know if that's true.
Okay, then I'm not your friend.

(34:02):
People

Lee (34:03):
don't unders. They don't understand if they're not in the
industry, like how justcompletely soul sucking it can
be, right? And exhausting, yeah,yeah.

Siobhan (34:15):
Like you were going through all of that stuff, and
while you were going through allof that, you were showing up at
your job every day, yeah. Andyou were pouring drinks for
people every day who weretelling you all of their shit
about their day and how bad itwas, and they wanted all of your
attention and all of your time,and they wanted you to feel bad
for them everything they weredealing with

Lee (34:35):
Exactly. Oh, yeah. And then, while all of this was
happening, my cat ended uphaving a heart attack and dying
suddenly. And, yeah, it just, itwas a lot. And then, you know,
friends dying, and I tell you,Well, you know, pretty much I

(34:56):
like to say. 2020. Started. It'sjust been a shit show ever since
for everyone, yeah, yeah, but itjust, it just feels like, God,
can we catch a break? Can therebe an easy year? And I guess the
answer is no, because, well,akuta took over office.

Siobhan (35:23):
I, you know, I kept forgetting yesterday, because I
worked all day. So like, all dayI was on my computer doing
stuff, and then last night I wasworking in a cafe, so, like, and
I actually worked at the cafeall day, just on my computer
doing work stuff. So I didn'twatch the news, and I kind of
just forgot it was a holiday.
You know, when you work in ourindustry, there's not really
holidays or days of the week.
There's like, am I work or am Inot like that? Yeah, yeah. And

(35:43):
so I just kept forgetting acouple people like, well, you
know, today, and I was justlike, I know it's a Monday, and
they're like, would look at me,and I'd like, and then they'd be
like, the inauguration. I like,oh yeah, I forgot. Can

Lee (35:54):
you believe the audacity of that motherfucker I on that
holiday? Oh,

Siobhan (36:01):
well. I mean, I don't think he chooses it right. Like,
it's the same. I don't knowabout that, but, yeah, I don't
know. I didn't look into thatdistasteful to me. Well, I also
kind of felt like it was likethe universe giving us a nod
that maybe it won't be that bad.
Oh god. Well, that's

Lee (36:16):
like a silver like, Yeah,

Siobhan (36:20):
always like, cautious, optimistic, like, I'm gonna go
for the optimism. If I can evensee a, if I can see, like, a
glimmer of something, I'm gonnalean towards that and just hope
I know the bad shit couldhappen. I know, like, I mean, I
did see something about ElonMusk doing the did you see that?
I mean, I like, in my brain,like, part of my brain was like,

(36:40):
maybe that's AI, like, maybethat's not real. Like, he
obviously did not throw a Nazisalute up during a presidential,
a US presidential inaugurationlike that could, like, right?
And I've seen it now too manyplaces to think it really is
fake. It probably did happen.
But I also haven't, like, factchecked it, because I just can't
believe that's where we would

Lee (37:01):
be. It's just nauseating.
All of it really

Siobhan (37:06):
can't be. Like my brain just is kind of like your brain,
like these little things thathappen, but you're like, No, it
can't be anything terriblebecause, like, nothing terrible
is really going to happen likethat. Like, it's just so far
from your perspective or your Idon't, yeah, imagination that it

(37:28):
would like that that

Lee (37:30):
actually is happening, yeah? Yeah. There was a little
like tickle in the back of mybrain during all of that, like,
this is weird, yeah, but, you

Siobhan (37:43):
know, yeah, but it's so far from like, what has ever
happened to you, that it doesn'tfeel like that could be
something that's gonna happen,right, right? Like, I was
talking to this with someonelike, when I finally kind of not
go over my anxiety, because Istill very much have it, but
like, learn to deal with myanxiety more is like, I would
worry about all this shit, andmy brain would go down these

(38:03):
crazy fucking rabbit holes oflike, this is all the worst
stuff that could happen, andthen, like, something else
completely would happen. And itwas like, not anything that I
had thought through, right? Sothen I'm like, I'm wasting all
this time worrying about stuffthat is not the stuff that
actually happens. It's alwayssomething I never thought about
that happens. Yeah? So, like,maybe, if I just don't worry

(38:25):
about it and know, like,something could happen. Like,
every time I start to think,like, what's gonna I'm like, no,
no, I don't know that's gonnahappen. Yeah? Like, it's almost
like that, like, it's like,plausible deniability in some
way, right? Where it's justlike, I'm like, All right, I'm
not gonna think about the badstuff. I'm only gonna focus on
the good stuff with, like, anunderstanding bad shit. It's

(38:46):
gonna come up and happen. Andthat's,

Lee (38:48):
that's a healthy perspective. I feel, yeah, yeah.

Siobhan (38:53):
Is that kind of where you operate from now? Or have
you always operated with that?
Or, like, was that kind ofincident a catalyst for you in a
different way.

Lee (39:04):
Uh, so I seem to go through these sort of like peaks and
valleys with my mental health,and I can so for the past three
homes that I've lived in, Ifaced owner move in evictions,

(39:24):
okay? And that's it's justrampant in the Bay Area. It's a
way that landlords can displacetheir tenants without, you know,
much of a fight, a battle, andmost of the time they're not

(39:50):
actually moving in. And it'sreally up to you to prove it. If
you want to take them to courtand you want to go that extra
mile, you. So it it's up to youto prove it, then you can get
some compensation. But God, whohas the time or energy, and if
you're renting, you don't havethe money, right?

Siobhan (40:11):
Because then you have to hire a lawyer to do all that.
Yeah, it's soon,

Lee (40:16):
you know? It just happens over and over and over again,
and by the third one, I had PTSDabout it, and I felt my cortisol
levels through the roof. I wasalways in fight or flight. I
couldn't seem to calm it down.
It took a long time and sometherapy to get there, and I have

(40:39):
the tools now, because of all ofthat right to deal with the day
to day, but when something bighappens, like that guy breaking
in, I'm definitely going tospiral out for a While just my
anxiety and my ability to focuson, I can only imagine simple

(41:02):
tasks, is going to be reallyaffected. And, you know, but
like I said, I feel like everytime I'm functioning just a
little better than I did whenthe last bombshell hit. So
that's progress, right? But,yeah, it's it's hard, like I I

(41:27):
have a lot of anxiety, and Ideal with depression as well,
and it runs in my family. We allbattle it, but I happen to be
the only onethat has therapy for it.

Siobhan (41:47):
Oh, my God. Does that make you feel like a superhero
some days? Because it does forme. Yeah,

Lee (41:53):
it's like, I don't know how you can live in this world
without it. You know, I'm a hugeproponent of their course, when
I just don't understand thestigma against it, it makes no
sense. Yeah?

Siobhan (42:06):
Me, yeah. I remember as a kid, even, like, when I was
like, because I've dealt withdepression and anxiety since I
was young, like, yeah, you know,like mental health issues
running my family, and addictionruns in my family, and I've been
an addict and dealt with mentalhealth stuff since I was a kid.
I remember when I was like,Really, when I was in high
school, and my anxiety anddepression kind of got bad

(42:26):
because I was also a sick kid.
So like, I've dealt with chronicillness and stuff like that. So
I remember saying, like, I thinkI need help. And my mother was
like, you just want to go totherapists to blame everything
on me. Well, see, and like, thatwas, like, legitimately, a fight
we got into and I was like, I Idon't know. I know I want to go
to therapy so I can learn how tobe a better human like me. Going
to therapy isn't just to talkabout you being an asshole,

(42:50):
like, but you're being anasshole. Like, right? That was,
like, the only conversation. Iwas like, I'm asking for help,
and we're talking about how youare going to be an asshole.
Like, do you not realize thatthis moment is about you are
being an asshole, right?

Lee (43:04):
Exactly? You're just, you're just proving my point,

Siobhan (43:11):
like you're trying to tell me don't eat there because
you're not that big of anasshole, while you're making me
ask. Well, you're making methink, like asking for help is
me making you like I was, like,I was like, the mental
gymnastics I have to go throughjust for this conversation,
should explain while I haveissues, like,

Lee (43:26):
right? Yeah, yeah.

Siobhan (43:30):
Do you recognize when you start to spiral out? Or do
you not notice it till you'vealready spiraled Are you like
that aware yet? Well,

Lee (43:39):
so that there's this, it feels like this building panic
and but I tell myself that I'mhandling things, right. Oh, it's
amazing that I have, you know,like, I'm doing okay. I'm, like,
actually hanging in there. Wow.
Like, look at me handling this.

(44:00):
And that is usually the redflag. If I start saying that to
myself, then I need to really dosomething for myself, like go
for a run or, you know, physicalexercise is huge. It's so

(44:21):
important. And you know it inhandling all of that inner
turmoil, right? You can kind ofget into a meditative state when
you're exercising and likereally things become clear, but
also talking about it openlyhelps it can diffuse it. So when

(44:47):
I start getting to that point,if I can reach out to somebody,
and it's so difficult for me todo that, I don't like to burden
anyone. I don't want to buy. Oranybody, I tend to isolate when
I start feeling all of thatchaos. So I not a burden on

(45:08):
anybody, but then it explodes.
So yeah, the two things that Iknow work for me are exercise
and talking about it, right? Soyes and no, you know there.
There are times that I isolateand then everything explodes and
I'm just a big, huge ball ofcrying stress. And other times

(45:32):
when I recognize this is whatI'm doing, and that it feels the
panic. I feel like the panic isbuilding. Okay, then I need
these outlets, right? You know,

Siobhan (45:47):
is it just through therapy that you learn to not
isolate and to talk because youare pretty open about things
like, I

Lee (45:54):
try, I try to be right?
Yeah. I mean, I remember earlyon, when, you know, was sort of
drilled into me as a kid, like,don't, you know, everything must
be private. Don't, you know howthe family appears is more
important than anything else.

(46:17):
You know, it really was adifficult thing for me to
overcome, right? But, andespecially like when social
media became more of a thing andpeople started talking about
personal stuff, at first, Istill was clinging to that, you
know? I shouldn't. I shouldn'tever, like all these people who

(46:38):
are talking about their feelingsand their problems online, like,
that's online forever. Like, howcan you do that? You know? And
it finally came around. Like,No, that's good. That's healthy.
People should reach out. This isa good platform to do it, and
then you normalize it. The moreyou talk about all of that stuff

(47:01):
that more other people feel morecomfortable about, all the shit
that's, you know, that they'refeeling right like, I think it's
very healthy. I mean, sure,there are ways that you can
abuse social media, but yeah,and we've seen that, you know,
but, uh, but I think it's goodto use as a form of normalizing

(47:25):
mental health issues.
Definitely.

Siobhan (47:27):
Do you ever get like, a vulnerability hangover? Well,
yeah, I like to, and I will,like, rip myself apart for like,
being too vulnerable withsomeone, or for being too
honest, which is funny to methat now I have a podcast where
I talk about all my shit. Theirony is not lost, but I like,

(47:49):
even still Now, sometimes when Italk to someone about something,
I the next day will be like,I'll text message them and tell
them not to talk to anyone aboutor I'll like, hope I didn't
overshare. Or like, I get so inmy head about it that I'm like,
I can't even believe I sharedsome of that. Like, we've never
talked about this, and I can'tbelieve I didn't think we're
going to talk about today, butlast night, I just talked to

(48:11):
someone about, how will he died,and he comes up here all the
time, because I'm never going tonot talk about him. But like, I
shared a bunch of that stuff.
And like, this morning, when Iwoke up, like, I wanted to text
this girl and like, be like,like, I don't know, they just
like, dismiss everything I hadsaid and everything I said to
her last night, I meant, and Ihad no problem. And I was like,
just hadn't thought about it.

(48:33):
Like, it just kind of came up inconversation. She was asking the
last person I dated who's sayingthis, and she's like, so you
were married, and she's like,but now you date women. And I
was like, what? I'm like, Imean, I would, I haven't, but I
would. And she's like, Oh, Ithought you just dated women
now. And I was like, No, I lovethat. You think that though I
haven't dated a woman, I would?
I have no problem. Like, I, youknow, I'm open. I'm like, but

(48:55):
no, I've always dated dudes. Andshe's like, Oh, so you're
married, but then you gotdivorced. And I was yeah, I'm
like, Oh, well, also, last dudeI was dating that, like, and she
was like, wait, what? Like, andit was just kind of one of those
moments. And I was just like, ohyeah. Like, and then so we kind
of talked about it all, and Iwas just this, like, I said this
morning was like, I need to,like, take all of that stuff
back. No, which I it's such aweird Yeah. And because you're a

(49:18):
very honest like and not like,You're not an over share, it's
not what I'm trying to say, butlike you are like a share, like
you. I wouldn't ever think thatyou have that, but I've now
learned that so many people dohave the same kind of feelings.
They're just better at dealingwith it.

Lee (49:34):
I don't know if I'd say better. They might. They might
appear that they're dealing withit in more positive way, but
that you don't know what's goingon internally. Oh yeah, yeah, I
definitely have that. You know,we're all panic, and then I've

(49:55):
got to sort of mentally talk tomyself through it like, you know
you didn't. Say anything thatwasn't true, right? And so what
you know, you got it out there,and maybe something that you
said was helpful to the otherindividual, and if they're gonna
judge you based on that, wellthen yeah, they're probably not

(50:19):
worth your time. Anyways, yeah,exactly, better to know now.
Yeah,

Siobhan (50:24):
yeah. Did it take you a while to get comfortable with
that, or to, like, be able totalk yourself kind of into being
good with it, or, like, when youdecided to start sharing on
social media, or sharing, likethe parts of your story that
you've shared, did it happenkind of naturally? Did you have
to force yourself because, like,sometimes I feel like I'm not,
yeah, sometimes I feel like I'mforcing myself to kind of share

(50:47):
and be open. Because I'm like, Iknow it's gonna cause me more
anxiety later. Or it's like,yeah, I want to give that
person. It's like, almost I gettoo much in my head, I

Lee (50:56):
guess. Yeah, no, it didn't come naturally. I definitely had
to sort of force myself to do itinitially. It's feeling a little
more organic now, but I stillsort of grapple with it like, Is
this something I really shouldbe throwing out there? Or maybe

(51:19):
not? Maybe sleep on it and seehow I feel. You know, definitely
it's never a good idea to getshit housed, and
almost always the next day. Oh,God. How do I take that down?
Did people see that?

Siobhan (51:41):
You just delete it and never talk about it. No, you
must, you must have been drunk.

Lee (51:47):
Thought you were seeing things,

Siobhan (51:50):
not really. It was not me.

Lee (51:53):
I've definitely had those moments like, oh my god, girl,
you need to breathalyzer on yourcomputer.

Siobhan (52:02):
See, I think that's what my dyslexia, like, helps me
win. Because I'll start to tryto spell something and be like,
I can't, and then I'm usually alittle too tipsy to, like, look
it up like I normally would,yeah. And I'm just like, I'm too
dumb for this right now. Uh,dyslexia for the win

Lee (52:24):
today, yeah, the that hat, that like half of a text that
you never sent, are like, oh,thank Christ. When you look at
your phone,

Siobhan (52:33):
yeah, everyone's, you know, what I used to miss is
when I had an Android, you coulddo like, a draft text. Oh, nice.
And you can't do that with aniPhone, yeah? So I would, like,
write people draft texts as Iwas drunk and, like, then I
obviously wouldn't send it.
Like, the next morning, I'd wakeup and reread them all. See,
that's great. That's and thatwas, like, a smart like, like,
back in the day when, you know,we'll write a letter,

Lee (52:59):
right, but don't send it.

Siobhan (53:07):
The Android is the old draft letter?

Unknown (53:14):
Yeah? Totally, yeah.

Siobhan (53:18):
We need to bring that back. IPhone, yeah, the drafts
is, like, an important thing. Ithink again, it's smart to,
like, draft something and thengo back and read it before you
send it, especially if you'vehad a few cocktails. So

Lee (53:29):
on the iPhone, I use the notes, the notes out, oh yeah.
And then I'll just, like, get itall out, and then, you know,
like, later look at it again andeither choose to maybe send it,
or send parts of it or not sendit at all. But at least it was
very therapeutic. At the moment,I could just really great get

(53:49):
that all out. Yeah. Plus

Siobhan (53:52):
you could, like, write 18 emails in that thing, just
hop right at it and then belike, Oh, look at icing to so
and so. Yeah. I kind of like, Ikind of think that's brilliant.
I kind

Lee (54:01):
of like going back and looking throughout the years,
you know, because I saved them,right? And they're sort of like
almost journal entries anyway,and just, oh my gosh, this is
what I was dealing with, youknow, however many years ago at
this point in time in my life,you know, it's interesting.

Siobhan (54:18):
Oh yeah, I have when I first moved out here in 2020,
you know, it's been a while,five years, almost five years,
um, I started journaling again.
And, like, I can't, and I'vedone it by the year, and I've
done it, and I have them allprinted so I could go through
them. Because, like, I want todo like, a real like, year
intake, or five year intake oflike, because this has been a
wild ride the last five years.

(54:39):
Oh, yeah. You know, independentof what the last five years
actually have been, in reality,they were wild, just for me.
Like, I moved here, you know, Iwas restarting my whole life,
and then, like, the world shutdown, and then I was here by
myself, and like, didn't reallyhave, you know, like, and then
just how far my life has comefrom. When I came to California,

(55:01):
and that first year I was hereto now and then to think, like,
where I was actually in my lifebefore I came here, and then,
like, the two or three yearsbefore that, and even the five
years before that, like howdrastic My life has changed. Oh,
my God, I know. And like, Isometimes try to think about
what my mental state was backthen, and I don't even feel like

(55:23):
I know that person anymore. Likethere's parts of me, like I
forget that exist, like everyonce in a while, and I just said
this to someone the other day,like someone was shocked that I
was married and I didn't knowhow to take it, like, I didn't
know I was like, because youdon't think anyone would want to
marry me, or because, like, youdon't think I am like, have
enough time in my life to make apartner feel welcome. Like, was

(55:46):
it because you think I'm soindependent and I'm always like
or like, probably more of whatit is, and I think so too. But
like, my first initial reactionwas, like, you don't think
someone would want to live withme, like, you know, like, and
it's still like, those momentsof, like, battling. But then,
when I really think about it,the person that was married, I

(56:07):
to me, she doesn't existanymore, yeah? Well,

Lee (56:10):
in a way, that's true, right, yeah,

Siobhan (56:14):
but it's like, I can't, barely remember what it was like
to function back then, yeah. Andso then I think about people
that have grown, like,exponential exponentially from
where I am, like, they do reallyforget what it was like to
hustle. They do really forgetwhat it was like to grind it all
out every day. Like, yeah, if Iforget it what it was like to be
like a loveless fat chick, youknow, like, and I don't, I say

(56:38):
it jokingly, but I also say itas, like, that version of me,
like, half of her really doesn'teven exist, like, physically,
yeah, you know, like, so, like,the mental part to not even
understand how that exists.
Like, it's just a weird thing,and I think, and I'm so shaken
from it and, like, shocked, thatI wonder, like, how many people
take that moment to think abouttheir growth?

Lee (57:01):
Yeah? Yeah. I you know, it's interesting that you say
that so very, very recently,this, this last week, friend of
mine passed, and it was shockingand upsetting, and we, at one
point in time had been very,very close, and that was sort of

(57:26):
back when I was Polly, and shewas one of my partners. And I,
you know, after I found out shehad died, suddenly, I started
going through all of the oldphotos, and she and I had stayed
in contact. We, there was aperiod of time where we didn't

(57:48):
talk because there were somehurt feelings. But then, you
know, I don't, I don't rememberwho reached out first, but we,
you know, she was big in theburlesque scene, and I was also
doing burlesque, and we decidedto collaborate, and we had some
really great numbers we did. AndI was so happy for our

(58:11):
friendship to, you know, bethere again. And she also pulled
me into one of my favoritestores that I always wanted to
sell out of, because I also makejewelry. And she was like, well,
girl, I'm, you know, gonna betaking it over for a month, and
this is your chance to finallybe there and have your stuff

(58:32):
there. And so we were verysupportive of each other as
well. Over the last few years wehad kind of, like, there was
some back and forth, but it justfelt so difficult to get
together for lunch. You know,even she's in San Francisco, you
know, I'm, I'm in Alameda thatit's not that far apart. But

(58:55):
sometimes it feels like you're,you know, yeah. Like, stations
apart, yeah, so I started doingthe deep dive into all of our
photos and memories and wantingto pay tribute to her online.

(59:15):
But in the process, I startedlooking at who I was even 10
years ago and going, where didshe go? I mean, I don't know
that she would recognize me now,and I'm so sad that I've lost
parts of who I was. And so Istarted to really think about,

(59:39):
how can I bring that personback, you know? Yep, so I I'm in
all my grief over the loss, I'malso going to use this, and I
know she would be right behindme, saying, You better as an
opportunity to. You tried to getsome of that past me back, you

(01:00:04):
know, fuck yeah, yeah,

Siobhan (01:00:07):
yeah. Like, and I'm glad that you put it like that,
because there was so much of methat it's like, I don't
recognize that version of me,and I don't because that version
of me wasn't the best version,right? Like, the version right
now is the better version, in myown little humble opinion, yeah,
right, because I wasn't livingmy truth, then I wasn't and
that's why everything in my lifewasn't working right, right?

(01:00:27):
It's because, yeah, even though,like, I was doing things for
what I thought was the rightreasons, and because I love
someone, like, if I'm really,like, step back and look at it
like, I know I wasn't happy, andI know I all of this stuff that
was wrong with it because Iwasn't who I was supposed to be.
And so when I think about itnow, like, I'm like, I can't
even remember what that woman islike, but when I think about it

(01:00:49):
from that woman's perspectiveand the person I am now, it's
like, oh, I am, like, back towho I was before that stuff,
right? Like, because now we'rein our ages where, like, we were
old enough that we've lived kindof multiple lives, yeah, like,
right? Like we lived the lifethat we were supposed to as a
kid. And then we, like, we'restarting to build our lives that
we wanted to and then we kind oflost it because of whatever,

(01:01:12):
like, giving into things. Andyou compromise in life, you
compromise for love, youcompromise for family, you
compromise for jobs. And thenone day, you realize, like,
you've compromised who you are,right? Yeah. And then you're
like, Oh no, no, fuck that. I'mgetting back to me, right? Yeah,
yeah, right. But then in thatsame kind of time frame,
sometimes you compromise in theother way, right, where, like,

(01:01:34):
you give up those parts of youthat you knew and like to be.
We're both on like, a verysimilar trajectory, but in like
different, like, I'm trying toI'm gaining that person back
where you're losing isn't theright word, or, I guess maybe
you feel like you've lost alittle bit

Lee (01:01:55):
of that person. Well, what I mean is, I mean, yes, all
those things that you said likeI'm in, definitely in a better
place now, because I have allthese tools that I didn't have,
and I have all thisunderstanding that I didn't have
previously, and I'm so gratefulthat life, my life, has afforded

(01:02:20):
me that opportunity to get towhere I am, emotionally and
mentally, however, the moreplayful aspects of my life, you
know, I hit some point where Ithought, Oh, nobody wants to
look at me doing burlesqueanymore. And, you know, stopped

(01:02:41):
doing my art because I believedI can't make any money doing
this, you know, and I receivedso much joy from doing those
things. And that's what I wantto bring back, is the
playfulness the artsy side, theperson who is driven and
inspired by all of that, right?
I want her back, yeah, but, butwith all of the knowledge and

(01:03:05):
wisdom and experience that I'vehad, I I want to merge those two
selves. God, I can't wait to seethat.

Siobhan (01:03:17):
Because really you do, like you are a person that when
you when you walk into a room,you're noticeable. You know what
I mean, like, and people notice,because you are a beautiful
woman, and you are, I've seensome of your not art, not all of
it, and it is beautiful. Like, Ididn't realize that you'd stop
doing that because you kind oflost some of that. I thought
maybe it's because you lost yourjoy. I mean, as I finish that

(01:03:38):
thought, like you did lose someof your joy, but I do hope you
find it back. Because, like,that's the stuff that makes you
you, and that's the stuff thatmakes you more beautiful. Oh,
because, like, when you are havethat, like you have you shine
differently,

Lee (01:03:51):
yeah, yeah. Well, everyone does, right,

Siobhan (01:03:55):
yeah, but I especially want to make sure you hear that
because Thank you. Yeah, that'sone of the reasons why I find
you so kind of attractive andenamored and want to talk to
you. Because we always havegreat conversations. You always
are, like, you always bringsomething new to the table, or
something you know, like, it'sjust a joy to talk to you and to
see you and interact with you,because you have such a good
vibe. Oh, I want to see you doburlesque. I didn't know that

(01:04:20):
you did that last in the past.
Yeah, it was really fun. I canimagine. I want to take, there's
flux vertical. Have you heard ofthat? No, there's a pole dancing
studio in Oakland, and they do abunch of different classes. The
woman, one of the women thatopened it, I did a little work
with her partner, husband, who'sa bass player, a big bass
player, so, but I got, I took aclass once was a full dancing,

(01:04:42):
full dancing class, yes. And Iwent and, like, you know, I have
my shoulder injury, and so,like, I was, like, in the weird
I was talking to the instructor,and she was saying, like, she
wasn't going to do all the movesbecause of an injury. And then,
like, I was kind of making her alittle more than, like. What she
was telling us. And she's like,Oh, do you have an injury too?
And I was like, Yeah, I'm kindof, you know, messed up, and

(01:05:03):
we're doing something. And shewas like, Oh no, you have to,
like, really, like, grab thepole and, like, dip. And she's
like, your left hand is great.
Your right hand is not so great.
Yeah, my right hand doesn'treally work. And she just kind
of looked at me, like, why areyou here? And I was like, No, I
want to try it. Like, yeah, I'dlike to find my sexy back and
not just be like a dork like Iam, you know. So, like, I, let's

(01:05:24):
go take a class together. Yeah,you back into it or give us a
class?

Lee (01:05:31):
Oh, gosh, let me take a class with you.

Siobhan (01:05:37):
All right, let's go take a class. Yeah, that would
be so much fun I did.

Lee (01:05:41):
It would exactly once a pole dancing class, and I came
away so bruised.
It was so challenging. I mean,it's, I have nothing but
admiration for people who can dothat. Oh yeah, it's a sport. It

(01:06:01):
is. It should be in theOlympics. I swear to God, like
it. I can't wait for the daythat it is, because that is
awe inspiring and jaw dropping.
What those humans can dovertically, you know.

Siobhan (01:06:20):
But even the burlesque stuff, knowing how to move like
that, or like, you know, likethe playing with the emotion of
it, like, that's such a art too,yeah.

Lee (01:06:30):
And, you know, my friend and I used to like to do really
macabre burlesque, so there wasalways some humor in it, and
that was just the most fun thatwould be fun to to do again.
Yeah, yeah. Does

Siobhan (01:06:45):
macabre come from, like, the punk stuff, or, like,
because it's punk and goth, kindof, like, is there an
intersection there? Is it like,two very different Well, I feel
like

Lee (01:06:55):
post punk is kind of that intersection, okay, you know,
I've, but I've always been likeI came out of the womb like
this. You know, I remember as alittle girl, I just hated pink
so much, and my mom wantednothing more than to have a
little girl with a pink room anddolls I did not like them, and

(01:07:20):
dolls everywhere in my room, andI always, you know, rooted for
the villain and all of theDisney movies.
They were so misunderstood, youknow, they were my favorite
characters because they were themost complex, right? And the the

(01:07:45):
good guy was always so basic andboring

Siobhan (01:07:50):
and kind of dumb,

Lee (01:07:52):
yeah, yeah, you know, I just, and then I all developed
a fascination for carnivoresand, you know, predators in the
animal kingdom, because theywere so maligned. And right? Why
should they be maligned? They'rejust trying to survive like the
rest of us. And, yeah, I don'tknow what happened when my mom

(01:08:13):
had me, but I'm the total blacksheep of the family. I rest

Siobhan (01:08:23):
of them are just wearing their polos and, yeah,
I've

Lee (01:08:31):
always been a weirdo, but I'm okay with it. I'm

Siobhan (01:08:35):
getting more and more comfortable with the fact that
I'm a weirdo, like I always havebeen, but I've always also tried
to, like, fit into the thing.
Because that's what I was like,raised to try to train or train
to they tried, you know,because, like, I went to
Catholic school, and there was,like, all the rules to being
fitting in. And I'd be like,Yeah, I'm not gonna do that.
Like, like, you don't fit in.

(01:08:56):
Okay, then I don't fit in. Like,I don't I'll go over there. I
like those people over therebetter. Like, anyways, it's
fine.

Lee (01:09:01):
I was raised Episcopalian Catholic light, you know, yeah,
half the guilt.

Siobhan (01:09:08):
That must be so nice.

Lee (01:09:10):
Believe me, it was still a tremendous amount of guilt, but

Siobhan (01:09:15):
we have so much guilt.
Like, I always feel bad. It'snot like, and sometimes everyone
smell like, over explain stuffto my boss, and he's like, you
could have just and I'm like, Idon't know. Like, I just want
you to understand where I'mcoming from, why I'm doing. Oh,

Lee (01:09:26):
my God, isn't that hard to overcome the over explaining and
the that feeling of like,liability, yeah, I've really
been looking at that lately.
Like, Why am I feeling like thisis all on me, yes.

Siobhan (01:09:42):
And like, I know in my brain I'm not responsible for
how someone else responds orreacts to something. Like, I
know that, but in my head, Istill want to take care of them,
yeah? And like, I want to makeit easier for them. Or, like, I
know they're not going to likewhat I'm about to say, because I
know them. But like, this isalso the facts. Yeah. Yeah, you
know, like, I actually wasthinking about this this morning

(01:10:03):
because my friend Anna, who wework on another podcast together
and some other projects, andshe's in jury duty all this
week, and I'm so excited she'son a jury. Like, I have so many
questions, but, you know, she'snot allowed to talk about it,
right? I hope it's like,something good me too, but,
like, I don't really know. Andso I've been dying, and I was
like, I want to do jury duty sobad. And she was like, Excuse

(01:10:24):
me. And I remember as a kid,like, I wanted to go to jury
duty so bad. And like, I got myfirst summons to go, and I was
so excited. And then, like, Irealized the courthouse was one
of my aunt's courthouses, so I'mlike, oh, like, I can't be on a
jury in her courthouse, becauseshe works there, and, like,
because I know her, I don't knoweverybody else in the building.
Like, you know, I'm deemedimpartial. But I remember I

(01:10:47):
went, and when I got there, itwas like, no one in that
courtroom knew who I was. So Iwas like, maybe, like, I know I
can be impartial. Like, I preferjust facts, yeah. Like, all the
emotions get messy, like, theway I should be like, just give
me all the facts, and like, I amgood, I will give you, like, a
fair and just opinion. But whathappened? Well, I was there for

(01:11:09):
like, the first half of themorning, and I was like, dodging
anyone that knew me, and thenone of the court officers was
like, Wait a second, come here.
Yo, we came back, I think, afterlunch, and he was like, Excuse
me, Miss, can you come here? Oh,no. He's like, Don't I know you?
And I was like, I don't thinkso. No, I feel like I know you.
Don't you know someone here. AndI was like, oh. And then he was
like, hold on, aren't yourelated to so and so? And I was

(01:11:33):
like, maybe. And he was like,isn't like, Hanlon, like one of
the judges there. He's like,isn't the judge so and so, like,
her friend, and I was like, Idon't know, maybe she's been to
a couple dinners. He's like, youcan't be here. Like, you could.
Why have you been here allmorning? And I was like, I just
wanted to know how it works.
Like, oh, I wanted to, like, bepart of our, like, democracy,

(01:11:57):
right? You know that 18, you'restill kind of, like, a little
bright eyed and, like, excitedfor how it all works and the
justice of it all. And then Iwas just like, Yeah, you can't.
And I was like, I can beimpartial, I'm telling you. And
he's like, yeah, that's not howit works. And I'm like, you
think that guy over there can beimpartial? Like, I've seen what

(01:12:18):
he says when he's four beersdeep. Like, definitely not
partial to anything. Like, I'm ateen. I'm still, like, young,
and I don't know, ideally saythat, but I do so mad.

Unknown (01:12:36):
And

Siobhan (01:12:39):
then I've not been called for jury duty anywhere
else I've lived really, yeah,once in Arizona, but then I
called in and they're like, Wedon't need you. And then I've
never been called again.

Lee (01:12:50):
That's crazy. And you're registered to vote here? Yeah,
I've always registered.

Siobhan (01:12:54):
The first time I've ever moved anywhere, like, as
soon as I change my address, Ialways register to vote. I don't
always vote, which is a problemprobably. I mean, I have in the
last couple elections becausethey felt bigger. But yeah,
yeah, I haven't.

Lee (01:13:10):
I wish I could give all of my jury Simmons to you.

Siobhan (01:13:13):
I would take them. I so want to, like, be a part of
that. Now. I'm gonna get, like,called tomorrow. Have you ever
been on a journey?

Lee (01:13:26):
So most of the time, I can't do it because it conflicts
with work. But I did. I was ableto go in once and waited and
waited, and then we all got senthome. So no, I have not
effectively been, yeah, yeah, itwould be. I mean, if it would be

(01:13:50):
forsomething really good, like that
could be interesting, right?
But, yeah, yeah,

Siobhan (01:13:58):
something I want to do.
I love watching like, I mean, Iloved Law and Order growing up.
I mean, who doesn't, but, yeah,never got to. I do I want to. I
actually the judge that I knewas a kid. I believe I'm going to
get to talk to her in a fewmonths. Oh, me, yeah, she's
tired. Yes, yep. Oh,

Lee (01:14:17):
that's so cool. Yeah, I think, oh my god, picking her
brain would be Yeah,

Siobhan (01:14:22):
especially like her story, from this stuff, I
remember her story isinteresting, but just on the
surface is She's a white womanthat was a judge in a mostly
black area in Boston. Wow. Sothat perspective has to be
really interesting. Especiallyshe was a judge in the 90s and
2000s in Boston.

Lee (01:14:39):
That would be fascinating.
Yeah, some

Siobhan (01:14:42):
I prelimatively let Yes, she's gonna come on, so now
we're just scheduling, and whenI'm back east and can do it and
she'll, hopefully will alignsoon, well, I can't wait to
listen to that. Yeah, I'm superexcited. Yeah, it's very
exciting to do this. I get totalk to all kinds of people
about all kinds of things, and,like. Uh, you know, for someone
that you went through somethingthat was really terrible, I

(01:15:04):
mean, and not that I like toweigh anything, but, like, it
could have been worse, but itwas still terrible. I mean, it
was still a fucking terribleYes, like, and to the way that
you have dealt with it and beenopen and honest about it, and
kind of reclaimed your space isjust a really powerful thing, I
think, thank you. And you neveronce let it kind of like define

(01:15:25):
you or ruin you, or like ithasn't changed you. You know
what I mean? Like it hasn't whensomething like that happens, I
think it it's up to us on howit's kind of like your triggers
are the things that happen toyou. It's not triggers aren't
your fault, but the response is,like, your response has been
like, no, no, you're not gonnalike, this isn't gonna damage

(01:15:47):
me. And that's not the that'sthe best way I can think of
saying it now, like it'ssomething that happened to you.
It doesn't define you. Itdoesn't right, you know, it's
not gonna change the way youmove through the world. In a it
changes, of course, it changesthe way, but like, in a
meaningful way, like it's notyou don't go out any less, you
don't enjoy your friends anyless, you don't go home

(01:16:09):
expecting it to happen again.
Like it's something thathappened that you've kind of
seems, at least on the outside,seems have dealt with and made
you even kind of stronger andfiercer.

Lee (01:16:21):
Well, thank you, yeah. And I think

Siobhan (01:16:23):
it's kind of what you also kind of share about it is
like, yeah, bad shit can happen,but this is how you kind of deal
with it and get over it and moveforward. The

Lee (01:16:33):
I'm trying to remember the quote, I'm gonna mess it up, but
somebody said the things youdon't talk about. Well,
essentially, to paraphrase, thethings that you don't talk
about, grow, get, gain power. Soif you talk about it and you get

(01:16:54):
it out there, you're not givingit power anymore. You're sharing
your story, and you're hearingother people share their stories
that are similar, and that givesyou strength, and that helps you

(01:17:16):
navigate all of these roughpatches, but not talking about
it gives it so much power.
You're only as sick as yoursecrets. Yes, exactly.

Siobhan (01:17:30):
Yeah, yeah. It's a really true statement. Yeah.
Anytime I feel like I'm nottalking to people about things,
I feel like I start to slideback into all the old habits
that made me like a shell of whoI was. Yep,

Lee (01:17:44):
exactly.

Siobhan (01:17:47):
But it is scary to share your secrets.

Lee (01:17:50):
It is but, I mean, I'm taking it to the whole next
level. I I bet my coworkers wishthat I would share a little less
about things, because I'll comeback and say, Hey, sorry I was
gone for a while. I was pooping.

Siobhan (01:18:13):
Well, everybody does poop, everybody does poop, which
is also like we talked aboutthis earlier, like if everybody
poops, why is it so embarrassingto have to poop in public. Well,
like, it's one thing we all do,like, and nobody wants to admit
it. Nobody wants to have to doit. Also, our bathrooms are set
up horrible for it. In America,

Lee (01:18:33):
they are. They're awful, uh, I particularly was that the
bathrooms at work.

Unknown (01:18:40):
Oh, and, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lee (01:18:44):
And also, why doesn't everyone have a bidet? I'm
sorry, or at least, like, wipesthe toilet seat. Days are now
getting more affordable. Yeah, Iwent ahead and got

Siobhan (01:18:57):
one, right, right? I'm judging it. I don't have one.

Lee (01:19:01):
Oh my god, girl, it's a game changer. Once you have one,
you will never go back. I won'twear one too. You're gonna thank
me. You're gonna think,

Siobhan (01:19:10):
no, I love it. I've house sat for bidayu. I've had
hotels with the days. I will useit if I have it. I just have
never, I still haven't takenthis to I do have baby wipes in
my bath. You know what I mean?
Like at my bathroom at home,like, I have all the things, all
the accouterments to makepooping better, but I the bidet
would be the ultimate, oh, God,is just and then I wouldn't have

Lee (01:19:30):
to worry about baby wipes.
Well, I got mine when toiletpaper was like, you know,
everybody was hoarding it. Itwas so expensive. And I was
like, fuck this. Yeah, I'm gonnasolve this problem right now.
And yeah, it's been the bestthing ever. Really like it,
yeah, so get, get yourself atoilet seat a day where you can

(01:19:53):
adjust water temperature to, oh,

Siobhan (01:19:58):
well, I think that's like an if you're gonna do. You
have to do it right, because

Lee (01:20:01):
otherwise I don't want freezing water like I know about
it, you know, no, no one likesthat. It's like an

Siobhan (01:20:09):
ice cream headache for your pussy.

Lee (01:20:21):
It really isn't very

Siobhan (01:20:28):
good. I'm so classy.
All right, well, on that, I feellike that was kind of a
conversation under All right.
Y'all Lee, thank you for sharingwith us about really, like,
something that could have madeyou super jaded and bitter and

(01:20:48):
has only made you more brilliantand beautiful.

Lee (01:20:51):
Oh, thank you so much.
Like, thank you for having me.
Yeah, this

Siobhan (01:20:55):
was so fun. I'm glad we got to do it, and I'm glad that
everyone got to kind of get alittle I want to say taste of
Lee, but and then, if peoplewant to find out where you make
your jewelry, or they want tofollow you, where can they find
you? Where do they buy yourshit? So

Lee (01:21:13):
currently, I have an Etsy store that's L, E, E, V, I, L,
L, I F, E, Lee, evil life, Ilike it or the evil design,
okay? And that's an underscorebetween legal and design. That's
my I have both Instagram andEtsy with the legal design, but

(01:21:42):
I'm looking to open up aFacebook page that's going to,
I'll probably call it the samething, all right, perfect legal
design, and just going to beshowcasing the newest stuff that
I've got on there. And sweet.

Siobhan (01:21:56):
Well, I'll link all of that into our show notes too,
and we'll post about it. And,yeah, alright, and you have a
couple weeks before this comesout, so maybe we can help get
your Facebook page up to you.

Lee (01:22:08):
Yeah, it would be great to because I think I really want to
have, like, all of my stuffthere, and have a little, you
know, you can DM me if there'ssomething that you're interested
in, and because local people, Ifeel like, shouldn't be paying
shipping on Etsy, I can handdeliver stuff to you. All

Siobhan (01:22:30):
right, so if you're in the San Francisco Bay area, you
can come by and swing by. Oh, weshould talk about a couple of
people you could talk to aboutbeing in their stores. Oh, yeah,
oh, all right, y'all that'swhere conversations. All right,
thank you again, Lee for hangingout with us. Thank you all for
listening and make sure you gofind some joy today. I love you.

(01:22:54):
Perfect. You.