September 8, 2025 • 44 mins
"We want Christians to have a healthy relationship with the news... But most Christians don't—it makes them really angry or really sad or really anxious."
— Nate Wells
Today's Episode: All month long we're talking about God's good plan for his people for all time. And today, we're heading into the newsroom with The Pour Over's Nate Wells. He walks us through The Pour Over's process and passion for reporting the news in light of eternity. He shares how knowing the end of the story gives us hope and peace when the world feels like it's falling apart. Nate also shares two stories of finding hope when his own world turned upside down. Whether you're a news enthusiast or seeking peace in turbulent times, you won't want to miss this story.
This month's memory verse: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." —Romans 8:28
Today's guest: Nate Wells is not one of the beloved witty writers at The Pour Over, he's just the business-y guy wrangling all the creatives. He made the typical career pivot from finance to a small (at the time) Christian newsletter. Now, The Pour Over serves over 1.5 million Christians in the US with politically-neutral, Christ-first news. He and his wife, Ari, have four kids.
Want to go even deeper in this month's verse? Study along with Natalie in the monthly Bible Study Membership. Get the first month FREE with the code: PODCAST.
If you love this show...support it by leaving us a review.
Links from today's show:
- Check out The Pour Over, for concise, unbiased news from a Christian perspective.
- A Place for You: Reframing Christian Womanhood, by Kendra Dahl
- The Sing! Hymnal, from Keith and Kristyn Getty (get it for 30% off with a free Crossway Plus Account)
- Someone to Believe In: Embracing the Savior Who Stays the Same When Everything Else Changes, by Courtney Reissig
- Made to Tremble: How Anxiety Became the Best Thing That Ever Happened to My Faith, by Blair Linne
Follow Natalie & Vera at DwellDifferently.com and @dwelldifferenly.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Okay, fun fact about me.
I have a couple hymnals that Ioccasionally read like poetry,
and I'm very excited to tell youabout this next thing.
There's a new hymnal called TheSing Hymnal.
It's written by Keith andKristen Getty, who are
award-winning hymn writers.
It's a beautiful collection ofboth classical hymns and
contemporary hymns designed todeepen our worship to foster
(00:22):
unity among God's people andproclaim the hope of Jesus.
Alongside those timeless hymns,you're also going to find
liturgical readings and psalmspaired with songs and also
helpful indexes.
Guys, this is a lasting resourcefor individuals, families, and
churches alike.
Not just people like me who liketo read hymns as if they were
poetry.
(00:43):
And you can get your copy atcrossway.org backslash Getty
Hymnal if you want to get it for30% off or else you can get it
wherever books are sold.
We'll have a link in our shownotes so that you can easily get
it.
Hey guys, welcome back.
(01:03):
It's Natalie Abbott.
And today we are talking about abeautiful verse.
It's Romans 8, 28.
It's a verse that might befamiliar to some of you, but we
are memorizing it and meditatingon it.
All month long, it goes likethis.
And we know that in all things,God works for the good of those
who love him, of those who havebeen called according to his
(01:24):
purpose.
What a beautiful verse.
And it's an amazing promise, andI'm excited to talk about it.
But before we dive in, I want tointroduce you to my friend, Nate
Wells.
Welcome, Nate.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
Yeah, thank you.
I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
Okay, so the reason I asked Nate specifically is
because I got to meet him Gosh,was it a year ago already?
It was in May.
SPEAKER_01 (01:48):
In May.
Oh.
Okay.
Well, no.
I think we briefly met at TGConce.
SPEAKER_00 (01:52):
Oh, yes.
That's true.
That is true.
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
But then we got to hang out and chat a little more
in May.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Yes.
We were at like a podcast.
You called it the PodcastMastermind.
I called it a mastermind.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
I never liked that name
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
because nobody there was that smart.
It reminds me of Megamind alittle bit, like that kids
movie.
So I'm like, I don't know if Iwant it to be a mastermind.
And I don't feel like amastermind.
But I got to really hang out andget to know you better.
And so you're the head ofbusiness for The Pour Over.
And I feel like what a greatverse to get to talk with you
(02:26):
about.
Like this is your job to informpeople on all the things that
are happening in the world, thegood things, the bad things,
important things.
And you're telling it from aChristian's perspective.
And yet like this kind of averse is telling us that we know
that in all things that God isat work, that in all of those
things, the messy things, thehard things, you know, all of
(02:48):
it.
So can you tell me, before wedive into the verse itself, what
made you be a part of the pourover?
Like, tell me about your passionfor telling the news from a
Christian perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, again, thanks so much forhaving me, Natalie.
I was honored when you thoughtof me and asked me to be on
here.
And yeah, excited to chat aboutthis.
So my passion, I would even forme, I would broaden the scope a
little bit on my passion oflike, I desire for Christians to
have a healthy relationship withthe news.
We say like, we want Christiansto have a spiritually healthy
(03:24):
relationship with the news,which like you probably
observed, like most Christiansdon't, they over consume or it
makes them really angry orreally sad or really anxious.
And so, yeah, that's my passion.
And just to give like one, so wesend an email and we'll have
readers email back in, readerfeedback.
And like this story is what,energizes me every morning.
(03:45):
And I think about this story somuch is there was a girl that
wrote into us and she explainedlike, hey, during COVID, during
all the political division, mydad and me and my siblings, like
there was this huge rift betweenus because we, I don't know if
it was masks or whatever thatthey disagree on.
And it got to the point wherethey stopped talking to each
(04:05):
other.
Like this relationship wassevered between a father and his
kids over the news.
And she said, and I came acrossthe pour over And you guys have
been such a light to me to justgive the news and then point me
back to Christ.
And she said, and I shared itwith my dad.
I didn't think he would doanything with it.
(04:26):
And so her dad starts receivingthe pour over.
And then he sends one day, hesends a text that she showed us
the text he sent.
That was him basically in thegroup family chat, apologizing
to his family for his pride.
And in it, he...
he didn't say this is from thepour over, but he used exact
(04:47):
verbiage we did from ournewsletter that morning.
Something about how, like thisis important, but not God of the
universe important or somethinglike that.
And it was one of those whereit's like, and then she said
like, me and my dad havereconciled and like we talk now
again.
And it's like, whoa, God isusing this little newsletter,
(05:07):
like for people to have betterrelationships with the news,
which is like healing.
And so obviously not all of ourreaders experienced that by any
means.
But it's just, that's one of thethings that for me, when I think
about the passion with the pourover, it's like, man, there is
hurt in the world right now.
And as it specifically relatesto the news.
And yeah, that's such a funstory.
But to give a little morecontext on why the news, Jason,
(05:30):
who's been my best friend for along time, he's the one that was
the founder of the pour over.
And I mean, he just loves thenews.
He could read the news all dayand just have fun with it.
And it doesn't really affect himnegatively.
He loves reading the news andthen explaining it for years I
was the one that he justexplained it to and so I mean at
the end of the day that's whatthe pour over is it's us like
SPEAKER_00 (05:50):
so you're like the original recipient oh yeah I was
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
I was the verbal audience for years before it
ever was an email but yeah in Ithink it was in 2018 him and I
were at who hot which is I don'tknow I wouldn't recommend it our
wives wouldn't go there with usso it's just me and him there
and eating too much food and helike pitched me the idea the
(06:13):
pour over and I was just like Idon't know man like that's good
for you like you know whatever Ikind of brushed it off but to
his credit he would read thenews and he would be really
frustrated with like how he wasconsuming the news and so it's
like you know what as like apersonal exercise I'm just going
to summarize the news once aweek and send it to you and a
few other friends like just holdme accountable to that and it's
SPEAKER_02 (06:36):
like
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
sure man we'll see how long this lasts and the
first email was like May 2018and I mean that's that was it.
And that's it.
I mean, what it's evolved intois obviously different than the
first email, but it really islike a friend writing to other
Christian friends of like, hey,here's what's going on, but
here's the reminder of eternalhope in Christ.
SPEAKER_00 (06:55):
Man, I love that so much.
That is a lot how Dwell started.
It was Vera, my sister, havingthis passion for memorizing
God's word and how it had justcompletely impacted her in a
season of just really darkdepression where that was the
one thing that she was turningto and just really reciting over
(07:16):
herself God's promises andwriting them on her arm and
Sharpie marker and just likehaving them in her.
And when she came out of thatseason, that was when she
started to dwell.
She was like, Natalie, will youdo this with me essentially?
And I was like, amen, yes, I forsure will.
(07:38):
And to be as a sister, to seethat the power of God's work in
her life and my love for her andmy deep desire for her to thrive
and to do well and to know thatthat worked powerfully in her
life and to love God's wordmyself.
It was just like, yes, I'm in.
I'm getting in the bus with you.
And you probably felt the sameway with Jason.
(07:59):
It's like, this is my bestfriend.
He's doing this thing and it'sactually really fantastic.
And I let me in.
I want in on this.
I want to be a part.
I want to support you.
Yeah.
And also, I'm reminded of...
For me, 9-11 was, I was workingin Chicago at the time.
I was a young professionalperson, you know, working in the
(08:23):
loop, taking the train everymorning.
And when 9-11 happened, I was ina giant skyscraper on the 16th
floor where I worked.
And everybody was like turningon TVs and in break rooms and
talking about this plane thathit this building, all this
stuff.
And I, it was just Like, I'mlike, oh my gosh, is this going
(08:45):
to happen to us?
You know, because we just didn'tknow what the implications were.
And I started having panicattacks.
And then as I continued to takein the news, it was all these
really tragic stories and visualimages that I was like, I
couldn't get them out of mybrain.
I could not, I couldn't watch itanymore.
(09:06):
And so for about 10 years, myhusband was Jason, my husband,
my husband, Jason, also Jason.
Was like Jason was for you wherehe was filtering the news for me
and telling me what was going onin the world because I was like,
I just can't, I can't see thoseimages.
I can't continue to be up atnight in a panic or in my job
(09:29):
having like panic attacks atwork.
And so I wonder with the pourover, you know, you had
mentioned this a little bitearlier that you see that as as
being kind of part of what youdo.
But it's not just like, here's,because there are news sources
where it's like, it's not goingto be graphic.
(09:51):
It's not going to be a lot ofimages.
It's just a newsletter.
Why specifically this Christianperspective?
Was that something that Jasonwas doing right at the beginning
when he was kind of giving youthe news?
SPEAKER_01 (10:03):
Yeah, he did.
I mean, there were a milliondifferent versions early on.
But yeah, it was always groundedin the Christian perspective.
With Romans 8, 28, like allthings that work together for
the good of those, you know, forthe good of those who are- Who
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
love him and are called according to his
purposes.
Sorry.
Yes.
Dang
SPEAKER_01 (10:27):
it.
That's
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
okay.
You don't have it memorized yet.
It's not an expectation forbeing on the show.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
That's right.
So working for the good ofthose.
And it's like, so in that verseearlier in Romans 8, yeah,
Romans 8.
Gosh, now I'm feeling nervousabout these other Romans
references.
That's okay.
You have this future sufferingand then talking about the
future or the present sufferingand contrast that to the future
(10:53):
glory and how they're notcomparable to one another.
That is what is leading up to828.
And then after 828, you have831, where it talks about, if
God is for us, who can beagainst us?
And then it talks aboutafflictions and sufferings and
all these bad things.
So on either side of 828, youhave all these things that are
not good.
And that is the context thatPaul's writing from we know that
(11:14):
Paul will be imprisoned later onlike it's like he can see what's
coming and yet he's still sayinghe's still talking about for the
good of those and I just thinkof that with us it's like yeah
in the news one thing we say alot is eternity changes
everything and that is how whenthere is tragedy in the news our
(11:37):
perspective as Christians canchange and we can still have
hope and that doesn't mean weshouldn't be sad That doesn't
mean we don't mourn.
That doesn't mean we don't pray.
But like we still have a hopethat shouldn't make sense to the
rest of the world.
Because if I was not a Christianor using like Paul's language,
if I was not adopted into thefamily or not filled with the
spirit, like the news would beso depressing.
(11:58):
It would be horrible, you know?
But how can we as, oh yeah.
But how can we as Christians bea light to the world, be salt to
the world in the way that we doconsume the news that we're
grounded in Christ.
We know how the story ends.
Jesus will come back.
the earth will be made newagain.
And yeah, that is the foundationof how we think the news should
(12:20):
be viewed, which is differentthan how most people do consume
the news.
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
Yeah.
Unfortunately, I feel like,well, for me, it's like, it's
not, it wasn't a good thing thatI completely turned off the
news.
You know, like you need to beaware of what's happening in the
world.
Yeah.
And it's also not a good thingto over consume the news.
You know, it's like, where doyou find that?
SPEAKER_01 (12:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, how do you think, I thinkthis is an interesting question.
If Jesus were here today, howwould he, and when he,
SPEAKER_02 (12:50):
the
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
news in his day was what's ever happening in the
town that he's in.
And maybe a couple days later,you hear about one town that's
20 miles away, right?
Right.
But now you can hear abouteverything that's happening by
the second across the globe.
How do you think he wouldapproach the news today?
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
Man, that is a great
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
question.
I'm putting you on the spot.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
Yeah.
I mean, I think about, what hisperspective is on everything.
Like his perspective is, youknow, when he's coming into
Jerusalem, he weeps over thecity.
He weeps, Jerusalem, Jerusalem,you know, we've sent you the
prophets and you murdered them.
(13:31):
And why didn't you let me, howI've longed to gather you into
my arms like a mother hen withits chicks.
Like, I think there is a part ofJesus, all of him who is just
broken And I think because he'sGod and because he has this
forever perspective, thisomniscience about all things, I
(13:52):
think he's able to contain andto process, like he knows all
the, he knows all the news.
Like he always knows all thenews.
He knows all the news that'sgoing to be, he knows all the
news that has been, and he knowshow he's going to work it all
together for good.
I think for us, because we'relimited and we are, uh,
(14:13):
incapable of holding all ofthose things you know like Jesus
is the one who is before allthings and in him all things
hold together in him all thingshold together so like he's
capable of holding all of it butfor us like we
SPEAKER_02 (14:31):
aren't
SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
we aren't and I honestly have a new appreciation
for the news ever since I meanlike if anybody been listening
to the Dwell Differently podcastfor any amount of time you know
that we're always talking aboutthe pour over sometimes we
actually have like an ad that wedo for you guys but generally
(14:54):
speaking like we actually arejust talking about the pour over
because it's like we appreciateso much the perspective that
you're handing us it's like thisconstant reminder of like hey
this really hard thing happenedthis tragedy happened in the
world and yet we know that Godworks all things together for
(15:15):
good or here's this quote fromthis Christian who is talking
about how we can do these thingsso I mean like not to be not to
be like a super fangirl oranything but I think Jesus would
be really pleased I think hewould look at what you guys are
doing and be well done good andfaithful servants like you are
(15:37):
doing my work you're helping mypeople in a healthy way consume
the news and And I just, I lovethat.
I love that.
That's a great question too.
Yeah.
Although not okay.
I'm asking the questions here.
I'm sorry.
I'm
SPEAKER_01 (15:53):
sorry.
I put you on the spot.
That wasn't fair.
No, no, no.
Yeah, I would say my answer tothat, and I've had more time to
think about it, but I thinkJesus would view the news as a
way to love his neighbor.
And in one way, and a way to besalt and light to the world of
think about the conversationyou're having with your neighbor
while you lean on the fence,like, and it's a nice day out.
(16:13):
Yeah.
Like they may want to talk aboutwhat's going, they may want to
talk about Taylor Swift.
You know, they might want totalk about the current events
that are going on.
So I would say we think there isvalue in knowing what's going
on.
SPEAKER_02 (16:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:25):
It is somewhat of limited value.
And I think the distinction thatyou brought up of Jesus's like
omniscience is, is so goodbecause he is God and we are
not.
And I think an appropriateresponse to the news is that if
you are consuming, I'm justgoing to say cable television
(16:46):
news for two hours a night,you're going to get worked up
and you're not going to doanything about it.
Most likely.
We think that's wrong.
We think the appropriateresponse for us is to be
informed as an act of loving ourneighbor, being informed with
what's going on.
And maybe, This will not usuallyhappen, but maybe there's
(17:07):
something in the news that stirsyou to take some sort of action
other than prayer.
Because a lot of times you'retalking about Jesus coming into
Jerusalem and mourning andpraying over the city.
And I think that is an awesomeresponse when tragedy is in the
news.
But also maybe there's somethingin the news of, okay, Roe v.
Wade was overturned a couple ofyears ago.
I don't remember exactly when itwas.
(17:27):
And maybe you've seen all theprotests and your heart is just
torn apart and you're thinkinglike, man, I just love preborn
babies and my heart, like I feelthe Holy Spirit tugging me right
now in this news story I'm awareof.
And it's like, hey, let the HolySpirit work through you.
Do something about that newsstory.
You can do something.
(17:49):
You can't do everything.
You can't respond to every newsstory, but pick one thing and
say like, hey, no, I am reallypassionate about this.
I am going to go volunteer atthis pregnancy center.
I'm going to go, you know, dowhatever it is.
Or like with you and Vera, likewe're going to start this
company.
that we don't know what's goingto happen, but we have found
scripture memory is somethingthat's on our heart.
(18:09):
We're going to go do somethingabout it.
And yeah, I think just beinghuman, it's like pick one thing
and do it and just be faithfulin it.
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
I love that actually.
I think that's really helpfulbecause I think sometimes the
news for us can be veryoverwhelming, right?
It's like there are too manythings to, at least for me
personally, I think sometimesit's, you know, the level of
sadness that I can have inresponse to is like, no, I just,
(18:36):
I can do one thing now.
I can have the thing that I knowthat I'm called to do and I can
do it.
And I can use the stories thatare in the news, like you said,
to be a light for my neighborsand have conversations that are
of depth, yet also like it's adoor.
It's an open door when somebodybrings up the news to be like,
oh, I'm informed about that.
(18:57):
And I actually have thisperspective, which is why I
really appreciate the Christianperspective that you're coming
from.
Because it's like, oh, I neverthought about it that way, but
that's a really great way tothink about XYZ thing.
I have a question though, Nate.
So if you have some kind ofstory, like, could you tell me
how maybe you follow a storyfrom this is happening in the
(19:22):
world to this is how we're goingto present it to the world?
Like this is, because, you know,every news source has decisions
to make about what you're goingto show what you're going to
talk about, how you're going toquote unquote spin it.
Like everybody has aperspective.
Just like, you know, we have thefour gospels.
(19:43):
They're all true, but they'refour different perspectives of
the same story and everybody'shandling it a little
differently.
So it's not even like there'ssomething wrong going on if you
have a perspective or you'respinning something a certain
way.
So when you receive a story, howcould you give me like an
example story and be like, okay,this is something that we had.
This is how we decided topresent it.
(20:04):
And this is how we decided tokind of give a Christian
perspective about it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I'm not one of the writers.
So if you really like thewriting at The Pour Over, I can
take zero credit.
But we have phenomenal writers.
And one of them, Steph,summarized the way that we write
with brevity, levity, clarity,and dignity.
So whenever we are writing astory, those are like the four
foundational principles that wehave.
(20:30):
Brevity, levity, clarity,dignity.
So brevity, each news letter isfairly short.
And that's to serve our readers.
We don't think people need tospend that much time in the news
and we want to give you thenews, get in your inbox and get
out.
So that's brevity.
Levity is not, levity being in,like making jokes in the news
when appropriate and just havingsome tone and just showing that
(20:53):
a certain level of humanness andnot seriousness.
Now, obviously you need to bevery sensitive with that, with
tragedies or those sorts ofthings.
And then clarity is just beingvery clear with the stories we
want to use every single wordvery carefully for our readers
to serve our readers for them toknow what's going on and then
dignity dignity is the exampleof like it's always President
(21:16):
Trump and it was alwaysPresident Biden and whoever the
next president is it will
SPEAKER_00 (21:20):
be president whatever their name is
SPEAKER_01 (21:23):
yeah we treat everyone and every story with
dignity and so yeah I mean onestory example that does come to
mind recently was in early July.
I think it was right after 4thof July when there were those
horrible floods
SPEAKER_02 (21:43):
in
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
Texas.
And there was that camp that wasright by that river where a lot
of people were lost and passedaway.
And man, a story like that justrips your heart apart.
So thinking about, okay, what isour job in this story?
And I think in that story,obviously, we're not going to
make jokes.
(22:05):
But I do think it was a storywhere we can point people back
to the gospel and the goodnessof the gospel, the goodness of
the promise, but mostly justmourn with people and remind our
readers to mourn with those whomourn.
SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:18):
And I would say that was a big takeaway from that
story.
And then we also had, wepartnered with a nonprofit that
had Christian boots on theground for like just raising
money.
And so, hey, if you're soinclined, here's a way that if
you're heart is stirred, here'ssomething small that you can do
that does support thatcommunity.
And so, yeah, I would say thatthat's a fairly recent story
that, you know, tugged at myheartstrings.
(22:39):
But just a reminder to mournwith those who mourn.
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
What do you do when the things that once held your
faith together start to fallapart?
When your leaders fail, yourdoubts grow louder, or someone
you love walks away from Jesus?
In Someone to Believe In, Bibleteacher Courtney Reisig shares
her own story of deep, hurt, andhonest questions and how Jesus
met her right there in themiddle of it all.
(23:05):
Through powerful moments in theGospel of John, she shows how
even when everything feelsunstable, Jesus never changes.
He's steady, He's true, and HeSo if you're feeling weary,
disappointed, or unsure where toturn, this book is for you.
Grab your copy atsomeonetobelievein.com and
discover steady faith in anunsteady world.
(23:28):
We'll have the link in our shownotes.
Blair Lynn knows what it's likewhen life falls apart.
And in her new book, Made toTremble, she shares her journey
through crippling anxiety, panicattacks, ER visits, and deep
discouragement.
Like many of us, she wanted totrust in God, but she didn't
(23:48):
know how to in the middle offear.
Guys, this isn't a story full ofquick fixes or simple answers.
It is raw and honest and full ofgrace.
Blair walks through what itreally means to suffer with God
and how his peace can meet We'llhave a link in our show notes so
(24:18):
you can easily get this book.
I love, like you said, thateternal perspective of like,
hey, God is the one who isworking all of these things,
even these things for good.
Here is a way that you canparticipate in it right now.
As much as we're talking aboutnews stories, the story is not
(24:43):
finished.
We are right now living in themiddle of...
Our stories and that God is theone who redeems them.
God is the one who does that inthe world, but also in our
lives.
And so I'd love to kind of talkabout not Nate with the
(25:04):
businessman hat on, but Natemaybe without a hat on.
Like for you personally, when wetalk about these concepts of God
working all things together forgood, like the reality is like
the reason that you are able, todo your job well and to present
the news from a Christianperspective is because you are a
(25:26):
Christian.
You personally have thisrelationship with God and this
verse means something not justfor the world and generally, but
like even the verse says for youspecifically, like God works all
things together for goodspecifically for those who love
him and who have been calledaccording to his purpose.
(25:46):
And so what about youspecifically, Can you tell about
a time when this concept of Godworking all things together for
good spoke into your own life?
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
So when our first daughter was born...
So my wife was really sick, likeflu-like symptoms.
And it was a month before herdue date.
I don't know exactly how manyweeks she was.
But it was a month before herdue date and she was really
sick.
We called the hospital and theysaid, bring her in.
(26:21):
And so they bring us to laborand delivery just because she's
eight months pregnant and she'sreally sick.
And we're there for the night.
And then in the morning, theytake some tests of the amniotic
fluid.
And she has choreo.
I don't know the, I know that'sa short name whatever the long
name is for an infection in theamniotic fluid there's an
infection in there
SPEAKER_02 (26:41):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
and so the doctors tell us and it's fairly common
the doctors tell us like one wayor another like the baby is
coming out today and so we'relike
SPEAKER_02 (26:49):
oh wow
SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
oh and they say and if we're going to closely
monitor the baby and if thingsget worse like and the doctor's
telling me like we will get thebaby out in 15 minutes if things
get worse and I was like oh ohwe're having a baby today all
right and first off the humanbody is so cool the way so they
were it's crazy they weregetting ready for a c-section
(27:10):
and Ari actually my wifeactually naturally went into
labor because her body gave herthe signal that something's
wrong in here and not safe forbaby and she naturally went into
labor which is crazy so she isborn and then Ari's still sick
and then the baby is sick ourfirst daughter Ella and so they
(27:32):
immediately take her you knowbring her to the NICU there's 17
girls chords coming out of her.
And so that is like...
And I remember, and it wasprobably night two or night
three when Ari got sent homeafter she was starting to feel
better.
And the hospital was doing testsfor the bacteria.
(27:53):
And I can't remember what it wascalled, but the bacteria that
was in this infection.
And it was a bacteria thatnobody at the hospital, the
University of Iowa, which is thehospital of the state of Iowa.
SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
Nobody at that hospital had ever heard of.
And the only cases they'd seenof this in humans was like with
old men.
It was like kind of weird.
And they were concerned that itwould get into her.
into her spinal fluid and theninto her brain.
And so it was one of those whereI remember we went home and it
was like, man, we're home alone.
We don't have our baby with us,our baby's at the hospital.
(28:26):
And that was one of thosemoments where it's like, God,
what's going on?
Why are we home and our babyisn't?
And so Ella was in the NICU for15 days.
And after about a week, it got alot better got moved out of the
intense NICU to a lower level ofNICU.
(28:48):
And so we got to bring her home.
She's healthy today.
She's an awesome six-year-old.
The thing that I remember fromthat story that when thinking
about this verse in my life, whythat story gets triggered is
because I remember the firstnight that she was home.
This is going to make meemotional.
It was like 3 a.m.
and she's screaming.
(29:10):
And I'm just holding her in herroom.
And I'm just thinking, God, youare so good.
I get to hold this screamingbaby in my home.
And she is good and she is safeand she is okay.
And she's with me.
So...
Yeah, Bible Project in 2024,they did like a series on Sermon
(29:30):
on the Mount.
And one of the things that theytalked about with the Beatitudes
is like, what is blessed arethose who mourn?
What does the blessed mean inthat?
And one way that they reframedit too for today is think of it
as the good life belongs tothose who mourn.
And so when I think of the goodin Romans 8, 28, and what does
(29:51):
that good mean?
Like sometimes that good, it'snot the making a bunch of money,
having a yacht, all of thoseworldly passions and all of
those things.
It's like those little momentslike, man, this is good and God
is good and he has given us lifeand life is beautiful and this
is such a blessing from him.
So yeah, that's when I thinkabout the good and that story is
(30:15):
cool because I got to see theend of that promise.
SPEAKER_00 (30:19):
Yeah.
I think...
It's like what you're talkingabout with the context of the
verse.
Like the context of the verse isthat there is suffering and
there is separation.
But like, you know, there's thatbeautiful section at the end of
(30:39):
Romans 8 that talks about, youknow, for I'm convinced that
nothing can separate me from thelove of God in Christ Jesus,
that either death nor life, norangels nor demons, nor powers or
authorities.
And I mean, like listing out allthese things that it's like, God
is still good.
Even in our suffering, even likein that list is death, like our
(31:03):
most stark enemy.
And yet God in his goodness is,gave up his life you know jesus
gave up his life so that wecould have life like he he gave
himself fully and he knows heknows the bad things
SPEAKER_02 (31:24):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (31:24):
like he fully has experienced human suffering and
you know even even you knowcrying out from the cross my god
my god why have you forsaken meyeah like that is what he
endured for us and so like wecan trust that he's good, even
when we don't get to see thestory turn out the way that we
(31:48):
want it to do, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Yeah, I mean...
For those that are maybelistening, and I know friends
that are in this right now of,okay, you read this verse and
yeah, Nate, that's a nice story.
And your daughter's healthy andyour daughter's a great little
kid now.
But what about to the mom whodidn't get to bring their kid
(32:11):
home and is in the season ofwaiting for like, what is the
goodness in this God?
I don't see it.
And- I actually had someencouragement from someone a lot
smarter than me, Paul, who wroteRomans.
A chapter later, just onechapter later, I'm just going to
start with verse 14.
(32:32):
What should we say then?
Is there injustice with God?
Absolutely not.
For he tells Moses, I will showmercy to whom I will show mercy,
and I will have compassion onwhom I will have compassion.
So then it does not depend onhuman will or effort, but on God
who shows mercy.
For the scripture tells Pharaoh,I raised you up for this reason
so that I may display my powerin you and that my name may be
(32:54):
proclaimed in the whole earth.
So then he has mercy on whom hewants to have mercy and he
hardens whom he wants to harden.
You will say to me, therefore,why then does he still find
fault for who resists his will?
On the contrary, who are you, ahuman being, to talk back to
God?
Well, what is formed, say to theone who formed it, why did you
make me like this?
(33:15):
Or has the potter no right overthe clay to make from the same
lump one piece of pottery forhonor and another for And that
to me is, if you just read verse20 that says, who are you a
human being to talk back to God?
That could be kind of abrasive.
But I think since verse 16 isthere where it says, so then it
(33:35):
does not depend on human will oreffort, but on God who shows
mercy.
It's like, man, that gives me somuch comfort because you look at
the character of God and it'slike, he is a God that is
inclined towards grace.
He is a God that is inclinedtowards mercy.
He is a God that is inclinedtowards justice.
And that is the God.
And so it's not under my power.
(33:56):
And it's difficult for me.
I love control.
I want control.
But what we are called to isjust offer a broken heart to God
and just surrender to him andsurrender in his ways.
And yeah, it's just anencouraging verse to me that God
is the potter.
We are the clay.
We are called to just surrenderour wills to him.
SPEAKER_00 (34:16):
Hmm.
Nate, that is so good.
And I think that's just such apowerful image for us to like
carry with us.
There's a verse in Job where Godbasically says, I am God and
there is no other.
And I do, or actually Job says,you are God and there is no
(34:36):
other.
And just this idea of like, hegets to do what he's going to
do.
And also though, he is no, angrytyrant.
SPEAKER_02 (34:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:48):
He's merciful.
Like you said, his character iskind.
He loves us.
He embraces us.
He doesn't have to show usmercy.
He could just as rightly give usjudgment.
And yet he's calling, you know,like there's that passage where
it talks about, you know, cometo me, come to the waters, all
(35:12):
you who are thirsty, come anddrink, come and buy wine without
money and without cost.
And just this idea of Godlavishing on us something we
could never afford.
Like I could never earn this.
It said that in that passagethat you're reading, like it
depends on God.
It doesn't depend on human willor human effort.
(35:33):
And what a beautiful messagethat God is good.
And even like in Romans 8, itsays later, after our verse, it
says that God is for us who canbe against us like you brought
up.
Like we can trust him.
We can trust that he's workingall things for good.
(35:53):
Yeah.
Okay, Nate, before we close, doyou have anything...
I think maybe the question Ithink for you is in the places
where we find hardship and inthe not knowing, like even in
those days where you're withoutyour daughter and you didn't
(36:15):
know what God was going to do.
How is it that actually in thosehardest places, we find the most
growth.
Like, do you feel like that wassomething that you experienced
when you're like, okay, I'mtrusting it that God is good and
that he's going to work this forgood, even if.
SPEAKER_01 (36:37):
Yeah.
Oh man, this is anotheremotional one.
Yeah, I would say, And in theverse, it also, it talks about
like who's called us, like thecommunity us, not just who's
called me specifically.
Yeah.
And that does make me think ofmy mom who...
(37:03):
So she battled cancer for 10years.
And the day that, and I think Ishared this with you, Natalie,
but the day that she passedaway, we didn't, you know, she
had done the last round of atrial chemo that only a few
people were on.
We knew it was a Hail Mary.
The chances were super low thatit was going to work.
And then she had recently comeoff of it.
(37:23):
And I was just, I lived threeand a half hours from her.
I would come in most weekendsand visit her.
And so it was a Saturdaymorning.
I actually, this was when we Wehad one, no, we had two kids.
And I was just going to spendthe day there.
So I left early Saturdaymorning.
And you could tell she reallywasn't doing well.
(37:43):
And so I go down, she was in thebasement because that's where
like her bed was set up.
And I just spent the day inprayer and worship with her.
And I got to be with her.
And at that point, the cancerwas around her lungs.
and her throat and her heart.
And it was so hard for her tobreathe.
(38:05):
She couldn't lean back becausethen she wouldn't be able to
like talk.
Well, she wouldn't be able tobreathe if she leaned back.
And so I remember I would likehelp hold her head up and we
were praying together and shecouldn't really say more than
one word.
And we were praying together.
And then at one, she would kindof like mumble and I could tell,
(38:25):
you know, she was, she's sayingsomething.
I have no clue what she'spraying.
And then at one point.
the last two sentences I hearher say are, you are so good.
Thank you for amazing grace.
And it's like, man, when I thinkof the community us that we are
called, that same spirit thatlives in my mom, that with her
(38:50):
dying breath, as she is fightingfor every breath, that what her
heart is inclined towards isGod's goodness, even though she
knows she doesn't get to see hergrandkids grow up.
She doesn't get any of thesethings that she wanted and her
life was cut short.
Like she still sees that God isgood and that same spirit that
was in her is like in me.
(39:11):
And the encouragement of that,of she did not get to see the
end of the goodness, but shestill trusted that God was good.
And just seeing that example forme is so encouraging of, man,
how can I faithfully cultivatemy life to model this saint of
(39:34):
every morning when I got up, shewas in her chair reading her
Bible and how she was behind thescenes serving every single
Sunday and Wednesday night.
And that is just who she was andhow we have that example of
those saints that are set beforeus.
And everyone can think ofsomeone like at church that you
know is just faithful faithfullyserves, that's faithfully
following Christ.
And that you have the goodnessthat we're called to.
(39:57):
there are those that even if Idon't get it right now, there
are those that year after yearconsistently following Jesus,
like they actually understood iteven when they didn't get to see
how the story ends.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
Man, that's just such a beautiful story, Nate.
And what a testimony to yourmom, you know, of God's work in
her and the hope that we have inChrist, you know, that our hope
Hope is an eternal hope.
And when we are living our livesin light of eternity, when we're
(40:32):
believing the Bible for what ittells us is true about the
goodness of God and hisultimate, like this is his
ultimate plan for us, right?
That we would dwell in the houseof the Lord forever.
That we would be in hispresence, that in his presence
there is fullness of joy.
And it's hard for us here andnow sometimes.
(40:57):
but that we know the end of thestory.
And the end of the story is sobeautiful.
And I'm reminded of that versethat says that God is not slow
in keeping his promises as someof us would consider slowness,
but that he's patient andwaiting for those who would come
(41:18):
and be safe.
That the purposes of God in thisin-between time is for
salvation.
It's for of the calling ofpeople into his glory and into
his goodness.
Praise God.
He's good.
Nate, this is such a greatconversation.
I just appreciate you sharingyour heart and your stories and
(41:42):
the goodness of God.
And thank you for being one ofthose people behind the scenes
of the pour over who is justholding things up and having
faith and proclaiming thegoodness of God, even in the
hard things.
We just so much appreciate you Iappreciate the pour over again
I'm maybe like your biggest fangirl over here who just is like
(42:05):
I actually can't consume thenews any other way now this is
it this is it for me so I justlove everything that you're
doing and may the Lord bless youand keep you and shine his face
upon you and give you peace andthere will be links for those of
you guys who are listening toall the things the pour over and
if you don't get their emailcome mom now.
(42:28):
Yeah, you should.
It's free.
I mean, it's free.
Also, they have a podcast.
They actually have a podcast,which is really fantastic.
Sometimes I listen to thepodcast.
I'm more likely to read thenewsletter, but I do love the
podcast too.
So keep on, keep on, keep it on.
SPEAKER_01 (42:42):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for the kindwords and for what you guys are
doing and your passion forscripture memory.
SPEAKER_00 (42:47):
Amen.
It's our joy.
SPEAKER_01 (42:48):
It's our joy.
Thanks, Natalie.
SPEAKER_00 (42:53):
Do you ever feel pulled in different directions
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That's why Kendra Dahl wrote APlace for You.
In this book, she offers abiblical framework for women's
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With honesty and conviction, sheinvites women to embrace the
(43:14):
dignity and delight of beingmade female and to persevere in
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Nancy Guthrie, who I greatlyadmire, said it best.
Finally, I've been waiting for abook about what it means to be a
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(43:36):
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And finally, here it is.
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A Place for You points us toGod's good design and calls us
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Find your copy atmoodypublishers.com We'll have a
(43:56):
link in our show notes for you.
Okay, fun fact about me.
I have a couple hymnals that Ioccasionally read like poetry,
and I'm very excited to tell youabout this next thing.
There's a new hymnal called TheSing Hymnal.
It's written by Keith andKristen Getty, who are
award-winning hymn writers.
It's a beautiful collection ofboth classical hymns and
contemporary hymns designed todeepen our worship to foster
(00:22):
unity among God's people andproclaim the hope of Jesus.
Alongside those timeless hymns,you're also going to find
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Guys, this is a lasting resourcefor individuals, families, and
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Not just people like me who liketo read hymns as if they were
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(00:43):
And you can get your copy atcrossway.org backslash Getty
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wherever books are sold.
We'll have a link in our shownotes so that you can easily get
it.
Hey guys, welcome back.
(01:03):
It's Natalie Abbott.
And today we are talking about abeautiful verse.
It's Romans 8, 28.
It's a verse that might befamiliar to some of you, but we
are memorizing it and meditatingon it.
All month long, it goes likethis.
And we know that in all things,God works for the good of those
who love him, of those who havebeen called according to his
(01:24):
purpose.
What a beautiful verse.
And it's an amazing promise, andI'm excited to talk about it.
But before we dive in, I want tointroduce you to my friend, Nate
Wells.
Welcome, Nate.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
Yeah, thank you.
I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
Okay, so the reason I asked Nate specifically is
because I got to meet him Gosh,was it a year ago already?
It was in May.
SPEAKER_01 (01:48):
In May.
Oh.
Okay.
Well, no.
I think we briefly met at TGConce.
SPEAKER_00 (01:52):
Oh, yes.
That's true.
That is true.
SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
But then we got to hang out and chat a little more
in May.
SPEAKER_00 (01:57):
Yes.
We were at like a podcast.
You called it the PodcastMastermind.
I called it a mastermind.
SPEAKER_01 (02:04):
I never liked that name
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
because nobody there was that smart.
It reminds me of Megamind alittle bit, like that kids
movie.
So I'm like, I don't know if Iwant it to be a mastermind.
And I don't feel like amastermind.
But I got to really hang out andget to know you better.
And so you're the head ofbusiness for The Pour Over.
And I feel like what a greatverse to get to talk with you
(02:26):
about.
Like this is your job to informpeople on all the things that
are happening in the world, thegood things, the bad things,
important things.
And you're telling it from aChristian's perspective.
And yet like this kind of averse is telling us that we know
that in all things that God isat work, that in all of those
things, the messy things, thehard things, you know, all of
(02:48):
it.
So can you tell me, before wedive into the verse itself, what
made you be a part of the pourover?
Like, tell me about your passionfor telling the news from a
Christian perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, again, thanks so much forhaving me, Natalie.
I was honored when you thoughtof me and asked me to be on
here.
And yeah, excited to chat aboutthis.
So my passion, I would even forme, I would broaden the scope a
little bit on my passion oflike, I desire for Christians to
have a healthy relationship withthe news.
We say like, we want Christiansto have a spiritually healthy
(03:24):
relationship with the news,which like you probably
observed, like most Christiansdon't, they over consume or it
makes them really angry orreally sad or really anxious.
And so, yeah, that's my passion.
And just to give like one, so wesend an email and we'll have
readers email back in, readerfeedback.
And like this story is what,energizes me every morning.
(03:45):
And I think about this story somuch is there was a girl that
wrote into us and she explainedlike, hey, during COVID, during
all the political division, mydad and me and my siblings, like
there was this huge rift betweenus because we, I don't know if
it was masks or whatever thatthey disagree on.
And it got to the point wherethey stopped talking to each
(04:05):
other.
Like this relationship wassevered between a father and his
kids over the news.
And she said, and I came acrossthe pour over And you guys have
been such a light to me to justgive the news and then point me
back to Christ.
And she said, and I shared itwith my dad.
I didn't think he would doanything with it.
(04:26):
And so her dad starts receivingthe pour over.
And then he sends one day, hesends a text that she showed us
the text he sent.
That was him basically in thegroup family chat, apologizing
to his family for his pride.
And in it, he...
he didn't say this is from thepour over, but he used exact
(04:47):
verbiage we did from ournewsletter that morning.
Something about how, like thisis important, but not God of the
universe important or somethinglike that.
And it was one of those whereit's like, and then she said
like, me and my dad havereconciled and like we talk now
again.
And it's like, whoa, God isusing this little newsletter,
(05:07):
like for people to have betterrelationships with the news,
which is like healing.
And so obviously not all of ourreaders experienced that by any
means.
But it's just, that's one of thethings that for me, when I think
about the passion with the pourover, it's like, man, there is
hurt in the world right now.
And as it specifically relatesto the news.
And yeah, that's such a funstory.
But to give a little morecontext on why the news, Jason,
(05:30):
who's been my best friend for along time, he's the one that was
the founder of the pour over.
And I mean, he just loves thenews.
He could read the news all dayand just have fun with it.
And it doesn't really affect himnegatively.
He loves reading the news andthen explaining it for years I
was the one that he justexplained it to and so I mean at
the end of the day that's whatthe pour over is it's us like
SPEAKER_00 (05:50):
so you're like the original recipient oh yeah I was
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
I was the verbal audience for years before it
ever was an email but yeah in Ithink it was in 2018 him and I
were at who hot which is I don'tknow I wouldn't recommend it our
wives wouldn't go there with usso it's just me and him there
and eating too much food and helike pitched me the idea the
(06:13):
pour over and I was just like Idon't know man like that's good
for you like you know whatever Ikind of brushed it off but to
his credit he would read thenews and he would be really
frustrated with like how he wasconsuming the news and so it's
like you know what as like apersonal exercise I'm just going
to summarize the news once aweek and send it to you and a
few other friends like just holdme accountable to that and it's
SPEAKER_02 (06:36):
like
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
sure man we'll see how long this lasts and the
first email was like May 2018and I mean that's that was it.
And that's it.
I mean, what it's evolved intois obviously different than the
first email, but it really islike a friend writing to other
Christian friends of like, hey,here's what's going on, but
here's the reminder of eternalhope in Christ.
SPEAKER_00 (06:55):
Man, I love that so much.
That is a lot how Dwell started.
It was Vera, my sister, havingthis passion for memorizing
God's word and how it had justcompletely impacted her in a
season of just really darkdepression where that was the
one thing that she was turningto and just really reciting over
(07:16):
herself God's promises andwriting them on her arm and
Sharpie marker and just likehaving them in her.
And when she came out of thatseason, that was when she
started to dwell.
She was like, Natalie, will youdo this with me essentially?
And I was like, amen, yes, I forsure will.
(07:38):
And to be as a sister, to seethat the power of God's work in
her life and my love for her andmy deep desire for her to thrive
and to do well and to know thatthat worked powerfully in her
life and to love God's wordmyself.
It was just like, yes, I'm in.
I'm getting in the bus with you.
And you probably felt the sameway with Jason.
(07:59):
It's like, this is my bestfriend.
He's doing this thing and it'sactually really fantastic.
And I let me in.
I want in on this.
I want to be a part.
I want to support you.
Yeah.
And also, I'm reminded of...
For me, 9-11 was, I was workingin Chicago at the time.
I was a young professionalperson, you know, working in the
(08:23):
loop, taking the train everymorning.
And when 9-11 happened, I was ina giant skyscraper on the 16th
floor where I worked.
And everybody was like turningon TVs and in break rooms and
talking about this plane thathit this building, all this
stuff.
And I, it was just Like, I'mlike, oh my gosh, is this going
(08:45):
to happen to us?
You know, because we just didn'tknow what the implications were.
And I started having panicattacks.
And then as I continued to takein the news, it was all these
really tragic stories and visualimages that I was like, I
couldn't get them out of mybrain.
I could not, I couldn't watch itanymore.
(09:06):
And so for about 10 years, myhusband was Jason, my husband,
my husband, Jason, also Jason.
Was like Jason was for you wherehe was filtering the news for me
and telling me what was going onin the world because I was like,
I just can't, I can't see thoseimages.
I can't continue to be up atnight in a panic or in my job
(09:29):
having like panic attacks atwork.
And so I wonder with the pourover, you know, you had
mentioned this a little bitearlier that you see that as as
being kind of part of what youdo.
But it's not just like, here's,because there are news sources
where it's like, it's not goingto be graphic.
(09:51):
It's not going to be a lot ofimages.
It's just a newsletter.
Why specifically this Christianperspective?
Was that something that Jasonwas doing right at the beginning
when he was kind of giving youthe news?
SPEAKER_01 (10:03):
Yeah, he did.
I mean, there were a milliondifferent versions early on.
But yeah, it was always groundedin the Christian perspective.
With Romans 8, 28, like allthings that work together for
the good of those, you know, forthe good of those who are- Who
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
love him and are called according to his
purposes.
Sorry.
Yes.
Dang
SPEAKER_01 (10:27):
it.
That's
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
okay.
You don't have it memorized yet.
It's not an expectation forbeing on the show.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
That's right.
So working for the good ofthose.
And it's like, so in that verseearlier in Romans 8, yeah,
Romans 8.
Gosh, now I'm feeling nervousabout these other Romans
references.
That's okay.
You have this future sufferingand then talking about the
future or the present sufferingand contrast that to the future
(10:53):
glory and how they're notcomparable to one another.
That is what is leading up to828.
And then after 828, you have831, where it talks about, if
God is for us, who can beagainst us?
And then it talks aboutafflictions and sufferings and
all these bad things.
So on either side of 828, youhave all these things that are
not good.
And that is the context thatPaul's writing from we know that
(11:14):
Paul will be imprisoned later onlike it's like he can see what's
coming and yet he's still sayinghe's still talking about for the
good of those and I just thinkof that with us it's like yeah
in the news one thing we say alot is eternity changes
everything and that is how whenthere is tragedy in the news our
(11:37):
perspective as Christians canchange and we can still have
hope and that doesn't mean weshouldn't be sad That doesn't
mean we don't mourn.
That doesn't mean we don't pray.
But like we still have a hopethat shouldn't make sense to the
rest of the world.
Because if I was not a Christianor using like Paul's language,
if I was not adopted into thefamily or not filled with the
spirit, like the news would beso depressing.
(11:58):
It would be horrible, you know?
But how can we as, oh yeah.
But how can we as Christians bea light to the world, be salt to
the world in the way that we doconsume the news that we're
grounded in Christ.
We know how the story ends.
Jesus will come back.
the earth will be made newagain.
And yeah, that is the foundationof how we think the news should
(12:20):
be viewed, which is differentthan how most people do consume
the news.
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
Yeah.
Unfortunately, I feel like,well, for me, it's like, it's
not, it wasn't a good thing thatI completely turned off the
news.
You know, like you need to beaware of what's happening in the
world.
Yeah.
And it's also not a good thingto over consume the news.
You know, it's like, where doyou find that?
SPEAKER_01 (12:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, how do you think, I thinkthis is an interesting question.
If Jesus were here today, howwould he, and when he,
SPEAKER_02 (12:50):
the
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
news in his day was what's ever happening in the
town that he's in.
And maybe a couple days later,you hear about one town that's
20 miles away, right?
Right.
But now you can hear abouteverything that's happening by
the second across the globe.
How do you think he wouldapproach the news today?
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
Man, that is a great
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
question.
I'm putting you on the spot.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
Yeah.
I mean, I think about, what hisperspective is on everything.
Like his perspective is, youknow, when he's coming into
Jerusalem, he weeps over thecity.
He weeps, Jerusalem, Jerusalem,you know, we've sent you the
prophets and you murdered them.
(13:31):
And why didn't you let me, howI've longed to gather you into
my arms like a mother hen withits chicks.
Like, I think there is a part ofJesus, all of him who is just
broken And I think because he'sGod and because he has this
forever perspective, thisomniscience about all things, I
(13:52):
think he's able to contain andto process, like he knows all
the, he knows all the news.
Like he always knows all thenews.
He knows all the news that'sgoing to be, he knows all the
news that has been, and he knowshow he's going to work it all
together for good.
I think for us, because we'relimited and we are, uh,
(14:13):
incapable of holding all ofthose things you know like Jesus
is the one who is before allthings and in him all things
hold together in him all thingshold together so like he's
capable of holding all of it butfor us like we
SPEAKER_02 (14:31):
aren't
SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
we aren't and I honestly have a new appreciation
for the news ever since I meanlike if anybody been listening
to the Dwell Differently podcastfor any amount of time you know
that we're always talking aboutthe pour over sometimes we
actually have like an ad that wedo for you guys but generally
(14:54):
speaking like we actually arejust talking about the pour over
because it's like we appreciateso much the perspective that
you're handing us it's like thisconstant reminder of like hey
this really hard thing happenedthis tragedy happened in the
world and yet we know that Godworks all things together for
(15:15):
good or here's this quote fromthis Christian who is talking
about how we can do these thingsso I mean like not to be not to
be like a super fangirl oranything but I think Jesus would
be really pleased I think hewould look at what you guys are
doing and be well done good andfaithful servants like you are
(15:37):
doing my work you're helping mypeople in a healthy way consume
the news and And I just, I lovethat.
I love that.
That's a great question too.
Yeah.
Although not okay.
I'm asking the questions here.
I'm sorry.
I'm
SPEAKER_01 (15:53):
sorry.
I put you on the spot.
That wasn't fair.
No, no, no.
Yeah, I would say my answer tothat, and I've had more time to
think about it, but I thinkJesus would view the news as a
way to love his neighbor.
And in one way, and a way to besalt and light to the world of
think about the conversationyou're having with your neighbor
while you lean on the fence,like, and it's a nice day out.
(16:13):
Yeah.
Like they may want to talk aboutwhat's going, they may want to
talk about Taylor Swift.
You know, they might want totalk about the current events
that are going on.
So I would say we think there isvalue in knowing what's going
on.
SPEAKER_02 (16:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:25):
It is somewhat of limited value.
And I think the distinction thatyou brought up of Jesus's like
omniscience is, is so goodbecause he is God and we are
not.
And I think an appropriateresponse to the news is that if
you are consuming, I'm justgoing to say cable television
(16:46):
news for two hours a night,you're going to get worked up
and you're not going to doanything about it.
Most likely.
We think that's wrong.
We think the appropriateresponse for us is to be
informed as an act of loving ourneighbor, being informed with
what's going on.
And maybe, This will not usuallyhappen, but maybe there's
(17:07):
something in the news that stirsyou to take some sort of action
other than prayer.
Because a lot of times you'retalking about Jesus coming into
Jerusalem and mourning andpraying over the city.
And I think that is an awesomeresponse when tragedy is in the
news.
But also maybe there's somethingin the news of, okay, Roe v.
Wade was overturned a couple ofyears ago.
I don't remember exactly when itwas.
(17:27):
And maybe you've seen all theprotests and your heart is just
torn apart and you're thinkinglike, man, I just love preborn
babies and my heart, like I feelthe Holy Spirit tugging me right
now in this news story I'm awareof.
And it's like, hey, let the HolySpirit work through you.
Do something about that newsstory.
You can do something.
(17:49):
You can't do everything.
You can't respond to every newsstory, but pick one thing and
say like, hey, no, I am reallypassionate about this.
I am going to go volunteer atthis pregnancy center.
I'm going to go, you know, dowhatever it is.
Or like with you and Vera, likewe're going to start this
company.
that we don't know what's goingto happen, but we have found
scripture memory is somethingthat's on our heart.
(18:09):
We're going to go do somethingabout it.
And yeah, I think just beinghuman, it's like pick one thing
and do it and just be faithfulin it.
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
I love that actually.
I think that's really helpfulbecause I think sometimes the
news for us can be veryoverwhelming, right?
It's like there are too manythings to, at least for me
personally, I think sometimesit's, you know, the level of
sadness that I can have inresponse to is like, no, I just,
(18:36):
I can do one thing now.
I can have the thing that I knowthat I'm called to do and I can
do it.
And I can use the stories thatare in the news, like you said,
to be a light for my neighborsand have conversations that are
of depth, yet also like it's adoor.
It's an open door when somebodybrings up the news to be like,
oh, I'm informed about that.
(18:57):
And I actually have thisperspective, which is why I
really appreciate the Christianperspective that you're coming
from.
Because it's like, oh, I neverthought about it that way, but
that's a really great way tothink about XYZ thing.
I have a question though, Nate.
So if you have some kind ofstory, like, could you tell me
how maybe you follow a storyfrom this is happening in the
(19:22):
world to this is how we're goingto present it to the world?
Like this is, because, you know,every news source has decisions
to make about what you're goingto show what you're going to
talk about, how you're going toquote unquote spin it.
Like everybody has aperspective.
Just like, you know, we have thefour gospels.
(19:43):
They're all true, but they'refour different perspectives of
the same story and everybody'shandling it a little
differently.
So it's not even like there'ssomething wrong going on if you
have a perspective or you'respinning something a certain
way.
So when you receive a story, howcould you give me like an
example story and be like, okay,this is something that we had.
This is how we decided topresent it.
(20:04):
And this is how we decided tokind of give a Christian
perspective about it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:09):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I'm not one of the writers.
So if you really like thewriting at The Pour Over, I can
take zero credit.
But we have phenomenal writers.
And one of them, Steph,summarized the way that we write
with brevity, levity, clarity,and dignity.
So whenever we are writing astory, those are like the four
foundational principles that wehave.
(20:30):
Brevity, levity, clarity,dignity.
So brevity, each news letter isfairly short.
And that's to serve our readers.
We don't think people need tospend that much time in the news
and we want to give you thenews, get in your inbox and get
out.
So that's brevity.
Levity is not, levity being in,like making jokes in the news
when appropriate and just havingsome tone and just showing that
(20:53):
a certain level of humanness andnot seriousness.
Now, obviously you need to bevery sensitive with that, with
tragedies or those sorts ofthings.
And then clarity is just beingvery clear with the stories we
want to use every single wordvery carefully for our readers
to serve our readers for them toknow what's going on and then
dignity dignity is the exampleof like it's always President
(21:16):
Trump and it was alwaysPresident Biden and whoever the
next president is it will
SPEAKER_00 (21:20):
be president whatever their name is
SPEAKER_01 (21:23):
yeah we treat everyone and every story with
dignity and so yeah I mean onestory example that does come to
mind recently was in early July.
I think it was right after 4thof July when there were those
horrible floods
SPEAKER_02 (21:43):
in
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
Texas.
And there was that camp that wasright by that river where a lot
of people were lost and passedaway.
And man, a story like that justrips your heart apart.
So thinking about, okay, what isour job in this story?
And I think in that story,obviously, we're not going to
make jokes.
(22:05):
But I do think it was a storywhere we can point people back
to the gospel and the goodnessof the gospel, the goodness of
the promise, but mostly justmourn with people and remind our
readers to mourn with those whomourn.
SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:18):
And I would say that was a big takeaway from that
story.
And then we also had, wepartnered with a nonprofit that
had Christian boots on theground for like just raising
money.
And so, hey, if you're soinclined, here's a way that if
you're heart is stirred, here'ssomething small that you can do
that does support thatcommunity.
And so, yeah, I would say thatthat's a fairly recent story
that, you know, tugged at myheartstrings.
(22:39):
But just a reminder to mournwith those who mourn.
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
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(23:48):
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(24:18):
you can easily get this book.
I love, like you said, thateternal perspective of like,
hey, God is the one who isworking all of these things,
even these things for good.
Here is a way that you canparticipate in it right now.
As much as we're talking aboutnews stories, the story is not
(24:43):
finished.
We are right now living in themiddle of...
Our stories and that God is theone who redeems them.
God is the one who does that inthe world, but also in our
lives.
And so I'd love to kind of talkabout not Nate with the
(25:04):
businessman hat on, but Natemaybe without a hat on.
Like for you personally, when wetalk about these concepts of God
working all things together forgood, like the reality is like
the reason that you are able, todo your job well and to present
the news from a Christianperspective is because you are a
(25:26):
Christian.
You personally have thisrelationship with God and this
verse means something not justfor the world and generally, but
like even the verse says for youspecifically, like God works all
things together for goodspecifically for those who love
him and who have been calledaccording to his purpose.
(25:46):
And so what about youspecifically, Can you tell about
a time when this concept of Godworking all things together for
good spoke into your own life?
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
So when our first daughter was born...
So my wife was really sick, likeflu-like symptoms.
And it was a month before herdue date.
I don't know exactly how manyweeks she was.
But it was a month before herdue date and she was really
sick.
We called the hospital and theysaid, bring her in.
(26:21):
And so they bring us to laborand delivery just because she's
eight months pregnant and she'sreally sick.
And we're there for the night.
And then in the morning, theytake some tests of the amniotic
fluid.
And she has choreo.
I don't know the, I know that'sa short name whatever the long
name is for an infection in theamniotic fluid there's an
infection in there
SPEAKER_02 (26:41):
yeah
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
and so the doctors tell us and it's fairly common
the doctors tell us like one wayor another like the baby is
coming out today and so we'relike
SPEAKER_02 (26:49):
oh wow
SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
oh and they say and if we're going to closely
monitor the baby and if thingsget worse like and the doctor's
telling me like we will get thebaby out in 15 minutes if things
get worse and I was like oh ohwe're having a baby today all
right and first off the humanbody is so cool the way so they
were it's crazy they weregetting ready for a c-section
(27:10):
and Ari actually my wifeactually naturally went into
labor because her body gave herthe signal that something's
wrong in here and not safe forbaby and she naturally went into
labor which is crazy so she isborn and then Ari's still sick
and then the baby is sick ourfirst daughter Ella and so they
(27:32):
immediately take her you knowbring her to the NICU there's 17
girls chords coming out of her.
And so that is like...
And I remember, and it wasprobably night two or night
three when Ari got sent homeafter she was starting to feel
better.
And the hospital was doing testsfor the bacteria.
(27:53):
And I can't remember what it wascalled, but the bacteria that
was in this infection.
And it was a bacteria thatnobody at the hospital, the
University of Iowa, which is thehospital of the state of Iowa.
SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
Nobody at that hospital had ever heard of.
And the only cases they'd seenof this in humans was like with
old men.
It was like kind of weird.
And they were concerned that itwould get into her.
into her spinal fluid and theninto her brain.
And so it was one of those whereI remember we went home and it
was like, man, we're home alone.
We don't have our baby with us,our baby's at the hospital.
(28:26):
And that was one of thosemoments where it's like, God,
what's going on?
Why are we home and our babyisn't?
And so Ella was in the NICU for15 days.
And after about a week, it got alot better got moved out of the
intense NICU to a lower level ofNICU.
(28:48):
And so we got to bring her home.
She's healthy today.
She's an awesome six-year-old.
The thing that I remember fromthat story that when thinking
about this verse in my life, whythat story gets triggered is
because I remember the firstnight that she was home.
This is going to make meemotional.
It was like 3 a.m.
and she's screaming.
(29:10):
And I'm just holding her in herroom.
And I'm just thinking, God, youare so good.
I get to hold this screamingbaby in my home.
And she is good and she is safeand she is okay.
And she's with me.
So...
Yeah, Bible Project in 2024,they did like a series on Sermon
(29:30):
on the Mount.
And one of the things that theytalked about with the Beatitudes
is like, what is blessed arethose who mourn?
What does the blessed mean inthat?
And one way that they reframedit too for today is think of it
as the good life belongs tothose who mourn.
And so when I think of the goodin Romans 8, 28, and what does
(29:51):
that good mean?
Like sometimes that good, it'snot the making a bunch of money,
having a yacht, all of thoseworldly passions and all of
those things.
It's like those little momentslike, man, this is good and God
is good and he has given us lifeand life is beautiful and this
is such a blessing from him.
So yeah, that's when I thinkabout the good and that story is
(30:15):
cool because I got to see theend of that promise.
SPEAKER_00 (30:19):
Yeah.
I think...
It's like what you're talkingabout with the context of the
verse.
Like the context of the verse isthat there is suffering and
there is separation.
But like, you know, there's thatbeautiful section at the end of
(30:39):
Romans 8 that talks about, youknow, for I'm convinced that
nothing can separate me from thelove of God in Christ Jesus,
that either death nor life, norangels nor demons, nor powers or
authorities.
And I mean, like listing out allthese things that it's like, God
is still good.
Even in our suffering, even likein that list is death, like our
(31:03):
most stark enemy.
And yet God in his goodness is,gave up his life you know jesus
gave up his life so that wecould have life like he he gave
himself fully and he knows heknows the bad things
SPEAKER_02 (31:24):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (31:24):
like he fully has experienced human suffering and
you know even even you knowcrying out from the cross my god
my god why have you forsaken meyeah like that is what he
endured for us and so like wecan trust that he's good, even
when we don't get to see thestory turn out the way that we
(31:48):
want it to do, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Yeah, I mean...
For those that are maybelistening, and I know friends
that are in this right now of,okay, you read this verse and
yeah, Nate, that's a nice story.
And your daughter's healthy andyour daughter's a great little
kid now.
But what about to the mom whodidn't get to bring their kid
(32:11):
home and is in the season ofwaiting for like, what is the
goodness in this God?
I don't see it.
And- I actually had someencouragement from someone a lot
smarter than me, Paul, who wroteRomans.
A chapter later, just onechapter later, I'm just going to
start with verse 14.
(32:32):
What should we say then?
Is there injustice with God?
Absolutely not.
For he tells Moses, I will showmercy to whom I will show mercy,
and I will have compassion onwhom I will have compassion.
So then it does not depend onhuman will or effort, but on God
who shows mercy.
For the scripture tells Pharaoh,I raised you up for this reason
so that I may display my powerin you and that my name may be
(32:54):
proclaimed in the whole earth.
So then he has mercy on whom hewants to have mercy and he
hardens whom he wants to harden.
You will say to me, therefore,why then does he still find
fault for who resists his will?
On the contrary, who are you, ahuman being, to talk back to
God?
Well, what is formed, say to theone who formed it, why did you
make me like this?
(33:15):
Or has the potter no right overthe clay to make from the same
lump one piece of pottery forhonor and another for And that
to me is, if you just read verse20 that says, who are you a
human being to talk back to God?
That could be kind of abrasive.
But I think since verse 16 isthere where it says, so then it
(33:35):
does not depend on human will oreffort, but on God who shows
mercy.
It's like, man, that gives me somuch comfort because you look at
the character of God and it'slike, he is a God that is
inclined towards grace.
He is a God that is inclinedtowards mercy.
He is a God that is inclinedtowards justice.
And that is the God.
And so it's not under my power.
(33:56):
And it's difficult for me.
I love control.
I want control.
But what we are called to isjust offer a broken heart to God
and just surrender to him andsurrender in his ways.
And yeah, it's just anencouraging verse to me that God
is the potter.
We are the clay.
We are called to just surrenderour wills to him.
SPEAKER_00 (34:16):
Hmm.
Nate, that is so good.
And I think that's just such apowerful image for us to like
carry with us.
There's a verse in Job where Godbasically says, I am God and
there is no other.
And I do, or actually Job says,you are God and there is no
(34:36):
other.
And just this idea of like, hegets to do what he's going to
do.
And also though, he is no, angrytyrant.
SPEAKER_02 (34:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:48):
He's merciful.
Like you said, his character iskind.
He loves us.
He embraces us.
He doesn't have to show usmercy.
He could just as rightly give usjudgment.
And yet he's calling, you know,like there's that passage where
it talks about, you know, cometo me, come to the waters, all
(35:12):
you who are thirsty, come anddrink, come and buy wine without
money and without cost.
And just this idea of Godlavishing on us something we
could never afford.
Like I could never earn this.
It said that in that passagethat you're reading, like it
depends on God.
It doesn't depend on human willor human effort.
(35:33):
And what a beautiful messagethat God is good.
And even like in Romans 8, itsays later, after our verse, it
says that God is for us who canbe against us like you brought
up.
Like we can trust him.
We can trust that he's workingall things for good.
(35:53):
Yeah.
Okay, Nate, before we close, doyou have anything...
I think maybe the question Ithink for you is in the places
where we find hardship and inthe not knowing, like even in
those days where you're withoutyour daughter and you didn't
(36:15):
know what God was going to do.
How is it that actually in thosehardest places, we find the most
growth.
Like, do you feel like that wassomething that you experienced
when you're like, okay, I'mtrusting it that God is good and
that he's going to work this forgood, even if.
SPEAKER_01 (36:37):
Yeah.
Oh man, this is anotheremotional one.
Yeah, I would say, And in theverse, it also, it talks about
like who's called us, like thecommunity us, not just who's
called me specifically.
Yeah.
And that does make me think ofmy mom who...
(37:03):
So she battled cancer for 10years.
And the day that, and I think Ishared this with you, Natalie,
but the day that she passedaway, we didn't, you know, she
had done the last round of atrial chemo that only a few
people were on.
We knew it was a Hail Mary.
The chances were super low thatit was going to work.
And then she had recently comeoff of it.
(37:23):
And I was just, I lived threeand a half hours from her.
I would come in most weekendsand visit her.
And so it was a Saturdaymorning.
I actually, this was when we Wehad one, no, we had two kids.
And I was just going to spendthe day there.
So I left early Saturdaymorning.
And you could tell she reallywasn't doing well.
(37:43):
And so I go down, she was in thebasement because that's where
like her bed was set up.
And I just spent the day inprayer and worship with her.
And I got to be with her.
And at that point, the cancerwas around her lungs.
and her throat and her heart.
And it was so hard for her tobreathe.
(38:05):
She couldn't lean back becausethen she wouldn't be able to
like talk.
Well, she wouldn't be able tobreathe if she leaned back.
And so I remember I would likehelp hold her head up and we
were praying together and shecouldn't really say more than
one word.
And we were praying together.
And then at one, she would kindof like mumble and I could tell,
(38:25):
you know, she was, she's sayingsomething.
I have no clue what she'spraying.
And then at one point.
the last two sentences I hearher say are, you are so good.
Thank you for amazing grace.
And it's like, man, when I thinkof the community us that we are
called, that same spirit thatlives in my mom, that with her
(38:50):
dying breath, as she is fightingfor every breath, that what her
heart is inclined towards isGod's goodness, even though she
knows she doesn't get to see hergrandkids grow up.
She doesn't get any of thesethings that she wanted and her
life was cut short.
Like she still sees that God isgood and that same spirit that
was in her is like in me.
(39:11):
And the encouragement of that,of she did not get to see the
end of the goodness, but shestill trusted that God was good.
And just seeing that example forme is so encouraging of, man,
how can I faithfully cultivatemy life to model this saint of
(39:34):
every morning when I got up, shewas in her chair reading her
Bible and how she was behind thescenes serving every single
Sunday and Wednesday night.
And that is just who she was andhow we have that example of
those saints that are set beforeus.
And everyone can think ofsomeone like at church that you
know is just faithful faithfullyserves, that's faithfully
following Christ.
And that you have the goodnessthat we're called to.
(39:57):
there are those that even if Idon't get it right now, there
are those that year after yearconsistently following Jesus,
like they actually understood iteven when they didn't get to see
how the story ends.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
Man, that's just such a beautiful story, Nate.
And what a testimony to yourmom, you know, of God's work in
her and the hope that we have inChrist, you know, that our hope
Hope is an eternal hope.
And when we are living our livesin light of eternity, when we're
(40:32):
believing the Bible for what ittells us is true about the
goodness of God and hisultimate, like this is his
ultimate plan for us, right?
That we would dwell in the houseof the Lord forever.
That we would be in hispresence, that in his presence
there is fullness of joy.
And it's hard for us here andnow sometimes.
(40:57):
but that we know the end of thestory.
And the end of the story is sobeautiful.
And I'm reminded of that versethat says that God is not slow
in keeping his promises as someof us would consider slowness,
but that he's patient andwaiting for those who would come
(41:18):
and be safe.
That the purposes of God in thisin-between time is for
salvation.
It's for of the calling ofpeople into his glory and into
his goodness.
Praise God.
He's good.
Nate, this is such a greatconversation.
I just appreciate you sharingyour heart and your stories and
(41:42):
the goodness of God.
And thank you for being one ofthose people behind the scenes
of the pour over who is justholding things up and having
faith and proclaiming thegoodness of God, even in the
hard things.
We just so much appreciate you Iappreciate the pour over again
I'm maybe like your biggest fangirl over here who just is like
(42:05):
I actually can't consume thenews any other way now this is
it this is it for me so I justlove everything that you're
doing and may the Lord bless youand keep you and shine his face
upon you and give you peace andthere will be links for those of
you guys who are listening toall the things the pour over and
if you don't get their emailcome mom now.
(42:28):
Yeah, you should.
It's free.
I mean, it's free.
Also, they have a podcast.
They actually have a podcast,which is really fantastic.
Sometimes I listen to thepodcast.
I'm more likely to read thenewsletter, but I do love the
podcast too.
So keep on, keep on, keep it on.
SPEAKER_01 (42:42):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for the kindwords and for what you guys are
doing and your passion forscripture memory.
SPEAKER_00 (42:47):
Amen.
It's our joy.
SPEAKER_01 (42:48):
It's our joy.
Thanks, Natalie.
SPEAKER_00 (42:53):
Do you ever feel pulled in different directions
by all the voices inside andoutside the church about what it
means to be a Christian woman?
That's why Kendra Dahl wrote APlace for You.
In this book, she offers abiblical framework for women's
value, purpose, and belonging.
With honesty and conviction, sheinvites women to embrace the
(43:14):
dignity and delight of beingmade female and to persevere in
the way of Christ with courage.
Nancy Guthrie, who I greatlyadmire, said it best.
Finally, I've been waiting for abook about what it means to be a
woman in Christ that adeptlyworks through the pertinent
texts with sound scholarship,simplicity, a lack of agenda,
(43:36):
and a love for the gospel.
And finally, here it is.
Guys, we all long to be valued,understood, and to contribute in
meaningful ways.
A Place for You points us toGod's good design and calls us
to hold fast to His truth.
Find your copy atmoodypublishers.com We'll have a
(43:56):
link in our show notes for you.
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